Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the_one_true_shea 03-24-05, 06:14 PM	An unavoidable concept in M:tG is the five color system. One of the most common elements in all of D&D is the dragon, and the dungeons within which they keep their hordes. I think that these two primary elements of the contributing systems can be combined in a way that harmonizes the two rule bases. Already there has been the position of many that there be the "in-game" elements of :r: fire, :u: water, :g: earth, :w: wind, and :b: shadow. No, I am not suggesting five monochrome dragon types, that would go against the extreem bio-diversity concept that brknlf and I have disscussed. Which I think is well and in line with the general thrust of the project thus far. I could have brought this up on a general theme, but I want to play fill in the blank here. (I know Im gonna miss some of these) :r: common fire drake :b: common shadow drake :g: common earth drake :u: common water drake :w: common wind drake blue/green - Cascade Dragon (all the possible combos of color symbols over ran the smilie limit ... didn't know there was a smilie limit.. its 15 btw, but the idea is that there should be a dragon type for ... every card color combo, possible) :r::b::g::w::u: World's Heart Guardian My thought, these are all one species. The dragon egg hatches in/on/around a ley line or place of power and out of it comes a dragon of type X. As the dragon grows in age and power they gain elemental attributes, not innately but intentionally. These dragons are intelligent (theoretically PCs in high power games) creatures that with or without guidance seek to complete themselves by investing themselves with all five elements of the world. I'm imagining this with two eyes: Nice bits of flavor text on a (world name) dragons set of M:tG cards. Interesting antagonists for D&D games - dragons seeking their elements. O.Y. No alignment connections with these dragons Thoughts?
Brknlf 03-25-05, 09:34 AM	From a flavor standpiont, I think you're onto something with this one. I've tried to avoid direct use of game mechanics when contributing as there is always the argument that something is too much a translation of the MTG game or something is too much a translation of the D&D game instead of being our own creation. Yet, I think the leyline/elemental/ambient energy/place of power concept is something that can exist without specifically saying mana symbols (being tied to MTG) and can exist without being defined by the traditional D&D magic system as well. It can exist and still offer easy translation/conversion into either system. Dragons have been poked at, along with hybrid dragon-humoniod type races. Much as magic, religion and fantasy cosmologies cannot be overlooked, I think dragons do deserve attention in any fantasy oriented world; whether it is traditional fantasy dragons or something unique all together. What I think is the most interesting offering, from my perspective, in Shae's post here is the correlation between sentient dragons and the leylines (or magical energies of the world). There is something common, more a monster/creature than a sentient being, the drake (or wyvern/worm). It is a creature that looks like a dragon (large/wings/breath weapon or other innate abilities like dragons). However, when it nests near a place of power (or a convergance of leylines from that perspective), the magic interacts in some way with the embryo/hatchling making it sentient. This also goes back a little to the theme of my conceptual race (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=255957) thread. This opens a whole world for creative ideas, in my opinion. By taking Shae's thoughts here, fusing them with using the leylines/elements as a subtype generator and looking at the Cascades (which has saw recent activity) we can come up with the higher echelon of the food chain, so to speak, for this ecosystem. We already have water and forest, the main theme behind the Cascades (sort of like a rainforest as I envision it, but I could be wrong). There are large, deep rivers and numerous lairs to the canopy in the forest. So we have water and earth (:u: and :g: ). We could infuse the canopy concept with a variant on the earth drake (which is based around earth element/green/nature already). Maybe there is a canopy drake, in the cascades it is evolved or developed slightly different than normal drakes in that it doesn't fly but has winglike flaps of skin which it can use to glide (up to hundreds of meters) as it moves from tree to tree through the canopy (this lends itself to game conversion to, it now has forestwalk for MTG cards and some feat that gives it a treewalk ability (fast land based movement while moving through a forest)). Likewise we could translate a similar drake into a version based on the rivers - the Cascade River Drake. Its wings are merely remnants of a dragon and only seem to exist for show only (and perhaps strange mating rituals), its large clawed hands are also webbed now (giving it a fast swim base speed in D&D or islandwalk in MTG). It probably leaves most full time in the water and maybe it nests much like a labyrinth (gourami) fish - building a nest under the water but trapping oxygen in the nest. Both drakes are rare at best and are on the top of the food chain in the Cascades. Lastly, you have the infusion of the two elements or leylines (water/earth or :u: / :g: ). This gives us a true dragon, a large sentient flying reptile. The Cascade Dragon. It can fly, unlike the drakes of the cascades, but its wings also tuck nicely against its body, allowing it to manuever through the thick forests of the Cascades. Likewise, it has remnant webbing on its hands, which allow it to dive into the water and swim with ease (sort of like a pengiun I guess, but it can really fly too). It probaly has some mist-like breath weapon as an adaptation to the forest environment (shooting fire isn't healthy, likewise spewing cones or something doesn't help its breath penetrate the thick forest). This offers translation easily into both game systems as well, without directly saying it (MTG - some gold card with a high casting cost that summons a dragon with both islandwalk and forestwalk and maybe some strange boastable power to relate to its forest-mist breath weapon (like +1 for each forest defending player controls) - D&D some mid range dragon (CR 12-15 for an adult) with a tree-walk speed, swim speed and a breathweapon for its mist attack). I agree that dragons should not be set to any given alignment, some could have a disposition towards a certain attitidue or philosophy which correlates to an alignment. However, being sentient and free willed, the choices they make in their life determines what they become.
the_one_true_shea 03-25-05, 04:59 PM	The dragons of this world do not rear their young. They mate, the females lay their eggs, and the parents are no where to be found when the eggs hatch. The ambient energy value of the surrounding leylines determines the type of drake or dragon that hatches out of the egg. Now, this is a process that can be manipulated. The mother can place the eggs in a particular place to produce particular results. Her motivations aside, a tri-elemental mother can intentionally lay her eggs in a river bed and hatch common water drakes. A drake can grow, kill, and die without ever developing sentience beyond that of a baby. On the other hand that same tri-elemental dragoness could quest to the heart of the world and the same eggs that would have hatched water drake eggs in a river bed will hatch a worlds heart dragon. Also, I am imagining some sort of elemental investiture process by which a mono-elemental drake can become dual, then tri, quad, and eventually a quint(essintial ;)) elemental dragon eventually. I dont think this process should be possible accidentally. It should be done for some intelligent reason. A dragoness can start this process by laying her clutch in a multi-elemental crossing. The dual elemental dragons are born as intelligent as a human. Tri elementals more so, and on up. Now, a human (or an ithawu) could take a common drake and induce the process to make that water or forest drake ("digivolve" :nonono:) into a full fledged cascade dragon.
Brknlf 03-30-05, 03:35 PM	I like the young rearing themselves, that's a good idea. It makes perfectly good sense from the drake standpoint and is a good carryover as they become dragons (its almost instenctive to just leave the egg be). Aside from dragons laying eggs near a location to make a dragon of a certain type, I do like the idea of the common sentients (humans, ithawu, orc, elf, what have you) being able to manipulate the dragons/drakes. I think the idea should be far away from the concept of digivolving and whatever it is the pokemon do (no wonky sounds and psycadalic colors and presto, they evolve). It should be something ritualistic, highly involving of the participants and time consuming. A long magic spell sort of. It must involve both parties being willing, the human and the dragon. With a drake, it would probably take a little more investiture by the one trying to 'evolve' them, they would have to befriend the drake with animal intellect and train it enough so that it will wait out the process. I also think that there shouldn't just be general dragons to match each element (mana color) and/or combination of elements. I think they should take on some flavor of the environment they live in. Merely such that a Cascade River Drake will be indeginious to the Cascade River valley (not merely a copy of a blue drake). It will be different from blue drakes that live on an island chain many thousands of miles away from the Cascades. In this manner, there isn't one 'set' image for all blue/green dragons in the world, as an example. It makes the Cascade Dragon unique to the Cascades as well (which is a rainforesty sort of dragon) - if someone makes a massive evergalde like swamp area, there could end up being a blue/green dragon with swamp like characteristics (it may be similar to the Cascade Dragon, but will have its own character).
the_one_true_shea 03-31-05, 10:23 PM	Ok, so For magic cards we have theoretically up to a dozen regional drake types that all cost one or two of any given color. They each get "regional abilities" and Their own relative flavor text. "world" drakes, its like a set - the beggining of any good five color drake deck perhaps. For D&D we could have a a power/age progression chart for the five mono-colors and any declared duo-coloreds like the cascade dragons. the tri-colors could be done similarly or like the quads. The quads should represent a certain level of power that is unifiying, there are only four possible combinations right? Then the five colors, mayb all have the same type base template/power/growth chart, but they also get divine rank. The five colors could be all be legendary cards by magic standards...:thinks: Literally akin to dragon gods by that point. "tale of the Xi'shinoa born dragon god" Once a little dragon egg hatched and out of it was born a dragon god. This newborn dragon was rather different from the other dragon babies, he was born in the world's heart you see. Formed in the flux and beat of the world's heart he was fused with all five of the great and powerful elements. .... stuff happens, and stuff... .... not as creative today as I would like to be :whatsthis:
Agent Graves 04-29-05, 12:49 AM	you guys rock, this is fantastic! How common are the drakes? I understand that the more elements the rarer the dragon is, Correct me if i'm wrong but i think there'd only ever be one or two five coloured dragons at any given time? And what about colourless? Below i've listed regions we have on the boards and added the dragons that may inhabit the areas. let me know what you guys think regions: (Brknlf's own) The Hinterlund Expanse description: tall snowy mountain range now, home to frost giants etc colours: maybe only blue dragon colour: 1: blue regions: (leaves's) Flash Rock Pear description: mountain colours: red dragon colour: red, maybe black regions: Cascades description: rainforest and rivers colours: green, blue dragon colour: 3: green, blue, green&blue Some of the other areas haven't been developed as far. How intelligent are they? Maybe the more colours they have in them the smarter they are? Is there room for dragon riders?
the_one_true_shea 04-29-05, 07:43 PM	How intelligent are they? Maybe the more colours they have in them the smarter they are? Is there room for dragon riders? Deffinatly, im thinking that the more elements that the dragon has the more intellligent they are, mono - animal intelligence dual - below pc intelligence tri - pc intellligence quad - above pc intelligence quint - wow. yeah only like a couple of these guys, how many world's heart guardians do you need really? im thinking that the mono/dual are the regionals, the tri become more independant individuals, and quads are nearly demi-gods, at least in self conceit.
Jeweler 05-09-05, 08:21 PM	i like this thread, i like the whole no dragon is tied to one alignment, becuz that makes sense, not all black cards are "evil", and not all white cards are "good", just like a demon doesnt have to be evil it can choose.
TolarianFlare 05-10-05, 09:16 PM	Well I have ideas to flavor dragon Lairs. :r: red has some earth elements to it (e.g. spitting earth ) Its usually do to volcanic and chaotic tendency of the powers associated with the mana. The Lair would most likely be volcanic and mountainous :g: Now say the volcanic rock/material cools down the earth tends to be fertile and loam which leaves green "earth" to be more woody and forest like. A large Tree or mass of them would probably make the lair :w: Now as the wooded area petters out into flat plains , from what I have seen white dragons in magic usually live under or near the plains. :u: In Magic Blue is weird ... it covers the expanse of the sky ( wind ) and sea. Sea temple/cave Lairs aren't uncommon to such creatures. Cloud Lairs aren't far fetched , but I think sea or ocean related lairs are more common. Now the weird thing is ... Flood a plains or forest and as it (or any land type decays) you tend to get swamps if the water remains for a long time in a stagnant pool. :b: Well shadow could be used to attach to it but some other attributes from the living area might help to give it more darker feel and abilities. Catacomb dragons and such tend to kill mercilessly lest they won't survive, the lair is usually a testament to it Here are some MTG Dragon Cycles The Art should give some ideas Mono Colored w Yosei, the Morning Star g Jugan, the Rising Star r Ryusei, the Falling Star b Kokusho, the Evening Star u Keiga, the Tide Star Multicolored w Treva, the Renewer g Rith, the Awakener r Darigaaz, the Igniter b Crosis, the Purger u Dromar, the Banisher Old+Grumpy Multicolored ( and entrenched colorwise too) Multicolored w Arcades Sabboth g Palladia-Mors r Vaevictis Asmadi b Nicol Bolas u Chromium
the_one_true_shea 05-13-05, 02:16 PM	Hey Torian, nice with the dagon links. I am kinda working with the elemental outline put foreward awhile back on these boards. In that layout the white element is actually the aky/wind/air element. Not so much "plains" thats probably a D&D mentality. Plains arnt an element ... elements have planes. I like those cards. Those vintage cards are neat with the pay or sacrifice. Makes me think of adding echo to some dragon cards. Im thinking that alot of the tri-dragons would be the "pawns" of more powerful characters. The great beasts are fed elemental power in return for dispensing with destruction. The echo or upkeep cost covers that concept nicely. The Tri-Elemental Dragons would be the PC level as well. Low or moderate Level Adjustment. Cloud lairs.. could you really do that reasonably? hmmm, what about White dragons having spacial manipulation powers? "Cloud Walk" or something sill like that in D&D, "Flight" obviously for M:tG. Have lairs that have cloud banks for "entrances" but lead to Jack and the beanstalk like pocket dimensions. And then there are the heavenly rings. Can a dragon fly directly to "heaven" ? Can ONLY a dragon fly directly to heaven? That has a certain magical to it..
kirbykel 05-18-05, 05:01 AM	The Flight of the Dragons Like a plague they come, out of the sky, to ravage the land and to lay their eggs. We only know that they come once every two thousand or so years, never the exact time nor place. We also know that at lease three civilization has been destroyed. It is, perhaps, the greatest threat to the mortal realm ever known. Like certain fishes, we can have dragons returning to the world to lay eggs. The eggs would then hatch, and the dragons grew to adults (and beyond). There will come a time when the dragon will feel the urge to fly among the stars. There they roam, till a time where needs will force them to return back to world to lay eggs again. In order to prepare the land (for the safety of the precious eggs), the returning dragon will ravage the land, clearing it of potential predators and processing the kills as food for the newly born. We can have serveral tribes of dragons, and a good number of loners roaming the stars, and not all will return at the same time. It need not be once every 2000 years (that could be just coincidence, or a guess on the part of scholars ), and it will only be a major disaster if the bigger (or biggest) tribes return. We can also have a single pair returning to lair. It is up to the DM to decide how big a campaign he wants. On the smallest scale, we can have a pair burning out a small area and catch players with it. On the other end, we can have a war with a major civilization, where several kingdoms or empires threaten by a flight of dragons. We can also have a setting where the dragons have already left (with eggs hidden here and there)... where the players need to survive devastated lands. The returning dragons may bring along ancient wisdoms, so that their young can learn before they mature. Such cache of knowledge made great hooks for PCs. It is also a change from the usual god-driven world disasters.... K. Dragons? They are but Crocs with wings! :D :D :D
Agent Graves 05-18-05, 06:59 PM	I must say that when i first read kirbykel's post i was quite cautious about it, because it would mean that the dragons will have a malevolent side that is passed down by genetics. Continuously ravaging the land to (putting it in crude terms) build a nest. Kirbykel, you did say the time between flights can be up to 2000 years? That is enough time for civilizations to rebuild after being almost wiped out and it could be a suitable tool to harness the technological advance of the cultures. [extinct technologically advanced race anyone?] I have come to the conclusion that i like kirbyke's idea. In nature we see animals returning to specific spots to roost, granted they are considerable smaller than the dragons we are talking of, but what if the mono-element dragons were only the size of, say a large croc? and aswell as the increase in intelligence (with the addition of elements) the dragons grow in size. "The flight of the dragons" can be a hundred croc sized dragons that have levelled farmer joe's wheat fields and are causing the local town to have a shortage of bread. The mono-element dragons would probably have the Intelligence of a croc, a quint-element dragon, the intelligence of... is 30 too low? (shea, put numbers to the smartnessess, can ya?) when do the dragons become so intelligent that they don't need to ravage the landscape to build a nest? I think the alignment (aswell as intelligence) would dictate where they nested. Whether they're malevolent enough to carve out the residential district of the local city or they find a niche in the middle of a forest. Also, not all dragons are going to be able to breathe fire... granted, ravaging the land for a water dragon may include flooding it and laying eggs in the water... A few more observations or questions; should the dragons sense where a leyline is an nest there? be it on top of a city or out in a lake. maybe some scholars have named the eras of society around the flights; 12 4AF: 12 years after the 4th recorded flight (something along those lines) more when i think of it steve
the_one_true_shea 05-20-05, 01:04 PM	should the dragons sense where a leyline is an nest there? be it on top of a city or out in a lake. maybe some scholars have named the eras of society around the flights; 12 4AF: 12 years after the 4th recorded flight (something along those lines) Marking time made most easy by the mating habits of teh dragon. 2000 thousand years is a bit more than I would have set, But I like the idea of the dragon migrations. Yeah, the lesser dragons would deffinitly be the touble makers, but what if some of the poly elementals were leading the waves. Makes them less malicious - the unintelligent ones are being hearded by the smarter ones. ... ok, IQ ratings, umm mono - animal intelligence dual - commoner intelligence tri - PC intelligence Quad - (+10) Quint - (+20) soo, 30 is on the low end for a quint. but in the balll park. While reading your post, kirbykel (hi btw welcome to the project board, and how do you like my summary anyway), I funny enough reacted similarly to Agent Graves, first reaction being "what? no way" but by the time i read all the way through I was like "yeah, yeah!" I had this idea that over some sort of migration cycle connected to the leylines the dragons invade the four levels of the world. The heart, the middark, the surface, and the god shell. And then there are "unnatural" forced migrations, caused by villianous individuals seeking to use the simple beast of destruction as tools for their own ends. Another thing, I was thinking about flipping it. Its not landing and laying eggs. Eggs are laid all the time right, whenever whereever.. but when the mana risies. The eggs need energy to hatch, and when the energy is right. They all hatch, and within a week (rapid maturation right?) there is an infestastion of newborn (but fully capable of eating you) dragons in the area.
Rny2 05-20-05, 04:30 PM	how vulnerable are newborn dragons? and what kind of predators are we talking about? dragon-hunters?
TolarianFlare 05-22-05, 09:00 PM	Hey Torian, nice with the dagon links. I am kinda working with the elemental outline put foreward awhile back on these boards. In that layout the white element is actually the aky/wind/air element. Not so much "plains" thats probably a D&D mentality. Plains arnt an element ... elements have planes. I like those cards. Those vintage cards are neat with the pay or sacrifice. Makes me think of adding echo to some dragon cards. Im thinking that alot of the tri-dragons would be the "pawns" of more powerful characters. The great beasts are fed elemental power in return for dispensing with destruction. The echo or upkeep cost covers that concept nicely. The Tri-Elemental Dragons would be the PC level as well. Low or moderate Level Adjustment. Cloud lairs.. could you really do that reasonably? hmmm, what about White dragons having spacial manipulation powers? "Cloud Walk" or something sill like that in D&D, "Flight" obviously for M:tG. Have lairs that have cloud banks for "entrances" but lead to Jack and the beanstalk like pocket dimensions. And then there are the heavenly rings. Can a dragon fly directly to "heaven" ? Can ONLY a dragon fly directly to heaven? That has a certain magical to it.. LOL well the plains in magic is to signify "Land that gets the most Sun" So white dragons tend to have a Solar affinity more than a wind affinity. Clouds in magic = Water which is usually a blue domain, so is altering time/space and aether MTG.... Water very dangerous thing, blue's domain is counterspells , control , information/intelligence, time travel , flying , illusions, reality alterations, trickery. Combining Solar and Water elements gives you some pretty strange and nasty planar magics. Heaven? :S Thats a tough one, there is no planar heaven but there are planes that mortals of different kinds would consider such. Same thing with Hell in M:tg Serra's Sanctum could be considered Heaven , and Phyrexia considered Hell ( I mean it has 9 spheres and all ) but in M:tg there are people who had the power to walk the planes at will and the technology to force portals into those realms .... well lets just say ... Phyrexia is in shambles from a blast , and Serra's Realm exists in a gem that is used as a powersource.... Speaking of powerful Planeswalker beings, they can take just about any form and some are dragons. I think Nichol Bolas was considered a god because he survived the war of his kind and was a planeswalker in terms of power.
the_one_true_shea 05-23-05, 12:32 PM	Serra's Sanctum could be considered Heaven , and Phyrexia considered Hell ( I mean it has 9 spheres and all ) but in M:tg there are people who had the power to walk the planes at will and the technology to force portals into those realms .... well lets just say ... Phyrexia is in shambles from a blast , and Serra's Realm exists in a gem that is used as a powersource.... Aha! Indeed! But on this unnamed world the heavens rest withinsight of the surface world. Or at least thats one of the ideas me and Brklf had. There is plenty of room in this world for heavens and hells hidden in the hearts of jewels, but there is holy ring around this half born planet. In non-alliteratory language. Me and Brklf had this idea. Based on someone else's idea for having rings visible in the sky, presume there are rings around the planet. Those rings could be the homes of the "dieties". There has been a general consenus to make the "dieties" not-real-gods, and I thought it would neat if some of those "gods" were inhabiting that ring. There would be a distinct creepyness to "the gods look down on us" kinda comments that way, and I very much appreciate the idea of 'hostile and petty dieties' that place themselves 'above' (both physically and metaphorically) their worshipers. I also just had the idea that even the gods cant actually fly up to the heavenly rings. Maybe ONLY dragons can fly through that kinda space (im assuming no vacuum) so maybe each diety has to have a "dragon mount" ... I dont know if thats a good idea, what about dragon drawn chariots. Maybe not just dragons.. some other mythical beasts might do as well.. I dunno.. fish. Hmmm, predators for newborn dragons.. I have been holding to the idea that the dragons are pawns for so many.. yeah dragon hunters would be the thing, but they would be more trappers than hunters. The dragons would be worth more alive than dead. For example: a mono-drake would be as intelligent as a horse, and as easily trainable - but hella more worth it in a fight. Skinning for scale and fang probably happens too. Arcanists with designs of LARhood would seek out dragon whelps as well. But now the Kirbykel gave the thought I got this idea of literal swarms of smallish dragon whelps overrunning a region. Like the Fog thick locust swarms, or raining frogs. They would start small (maybe two fists large) and over a fortnight, as they eat everything in sight, they get to medium size. The dragons other natural predator would be the dragon eh? The monos would eat when hungry, and would be able to eat anything. Maybe eating an appropriate number of mono-colors would be one of the ways for multi-colors to gain more poly-elemental power. Thats kinda gruesome... but hey somethings are evil. Cusin cuisine, deffinatly dark side - faster than meditating on flash rock peak for half a century to gather the desired :r: energy. Ahhh, wind/water/light.. such a debate.. could choke a cloud drake. Illaya (note: the moderator, where is she anyway? Brklf?) and a number of the original posters on this forum outlined the deliniatons between the elements. There are a couple facets to consider but in the end the reasons for the choice are clear: A: say elements.. think = earth, air, fire, water ala Aristotle. Only the die-hard M:tG player, and people from the far east (and I guess indonesia), are gonna think otherwise, if they think of anything other than atomic particles. B: Say five elements and you get one of two breakdowns. The japanese Air, Fire, Metal, Water, and (Stone/Wood - depending on something), or the earth, air, wind, fire and (ok.. spirit/akasha/orgone/etc). This is the real life magic schema that influenced the D&D settings. C: This world should have a five elemental schema :r::b::u::w::g: that both harkens to the land concept from M:tG and harmonizes as well with the more mystical base of D&D. D: :r:=fire, :u:=water ... the other three are less than perfect but :g:=earth, and :b:=shadow (and theoretically by universal inversives also the light). :w: being the element of the open plains, and the odd man out, gets wind. None of the other four have any "air" relationship, :g: ? :b: ? no. :f: ... But! that being said, cloud dragons.. :w::u: ?
TolarianFlare 05-23-05, 04:58 PM	But! that being said, cloud dragons.. :w::u: ? Yup most likely I think the D&D square of elements can fit inside the M:tg pentacle. So Earth would be sorta between Red and Green (closer to green) , Water between Black and Blue (closer to blue) , Fire between Black and Red but much closer to Red, Wind between Blue and White but a tad bit bluer than white (M:tg blue encompasses sky and sea ...both of which are blue ). The Heaven idea sounds like a barrier plane in magic , a plane ( world ) cut off from the others so travel is restricted. If the barrier is keyed to dragons in such a way that dragons become the medium of travel its probably going to seriously affect culture. Mono color dragons shouldn't be "stupid" but it should depend on the entrenchment into their colors and alignment. A :g: dragon will not be as impressive as a :g: :g: dragon in terms of abilities and such. The :g: :g: :g: dragon now will be be a serious monster no matter how young it is. One "G" would probably indicate some good size and some "trample" the type of combat where it tends to mow over things and keep going. Two "G" would probably indicate that it can grow bigger (Attributes increasing by something like 1/5th the originals) at will inside and outside combat , possible venomous breath and the Trample from before Three "G" Would probably indicate an appetite, the abilities from before and maybe regeneration , also the growth rate might be double in combat or when enraged. The personality might also be "****** off royal elf" type . So now we have something odd .... Something mastering an element vs a Multi-elemental ... Maybe the rider of the Dragon or who ever the Dragon has relations with might influence the Dragon's elements. Example :- Ice PC/deity tames a tempermental and powerful fire dragon as long as there is a relationship between the two may be able to use abilities from each other and overtime the Dragon might become Fire and Ice (red and blue) depending on the balance of the relationship and power. The Dragon might also have some strange breath or something that combines attributes from itself and the rider, like the dragon breath might freeze before burning causing the object to explode in shards or suffer damage from cracks.
the_one_true_shea 05-25-05, 07:23 PM	Deffinitly the more Gs (or Rs or what have you) are going to be analagous to the D&D age ratings, the more your mana cost (the older you are) and the more powerful your abilities are going to be. I am propositioning the idea that intelligence (in this world's dragons) is related to the number of elements that the dragon has. Do you not like that Idea? I think its adds an interesting flavor to the unnamed world's dragons. A phenomena that doesnt occure in any other setting.
TolarianFlare 05-26-05, 01:47 AM	Deffinitly the more Gs (or Rs or what have you) are going to be analagous to the D&D age ratings, the more your mana cost (the older you are) and the more powerful your abilities are going to be. I am propositioning the idea that intelligence (in this world's dragons) is related to the number of elements that the dragon has. Do you not like that Idea? I think its adds an interesting flavor to the unnamed world's dragons. A phenomena that doesnt occure in any other setting. Yes I understand the age factoring but even the young dragons cost more than one Red ... it tends to show Entrenchment within an element more than age Upkeep or some other drawback usually signifies age, like a grown aeon old dragon would eat more than a Dragon Whelp or Fledgling Dragon. The aged Dragons tend to show it in size(and cost to summon them) ... and not all are intelligent equally . The same colors have intelligence attachments... as well was personality and temperament ones W: Combat Tactical , Healing smarts, Patient wisdom, Destructive of magical boundaries that it does not want. U: Manipulation of Time/Aether/Magic , Control magic , Mischievous wisdom, experiments into nature. Dissects specimens of prey or just for fun. B: Willing to sacrifice possessions/life for power, Necromancy, Death magic, Poison, malicious wisdom, Destructive in a "dark" manner. R: Smart but Emotional , Looses cool easily, Manipulation of some of Blue's areas but with a serious lack of reliability, Tends to gamble with life and possessions, Destructive in a natural manner. G: Calm but Feral if threatened, predatorial , smart in a hunter sort of way, Manipulation of growth (of self and other things) , is against containment and boundaries physical and magical :) Its not that I don't like your idea, it is more of compulsion to make things complex ;)
TolarianFlare 05-26-05, 11:34 PM	Looking at it I forgot to ask something ... Incubation on a leyline as an egg... will longer incubation periods have effects? What about magical events and wars that may influence the flow of magic? Are there guardians of the eggs? ( A race with a special link to the dragons that is a caretaker? ) :) I think your multi-elemental idea has its merits in terms of intelligence but the combination might flavor the intelligence... I am just having trouble expressing it concisely
kirbykel 06-04-05, 01:46 AM	Off topic: Hmm... got exams so I disappeared for a while. Doing a bit of self improvement.... Thanks for liking my idea. I propose to look at it from the dragon point of view. (Slightly on the racist side, but) The dragons have to consider themselves above the rest, so burning down potential 'threats' are not neccessarily cruel or savage, just practical. Of course, you can have the good dragons to be more discriminating - that they kill 'evil' or even 'neutral' creatures. Given their (often) abilities with magic, determining alignments are not a big problem. The evil ones, well, don't really care. When I wrote the number '2000 years', I am actually looking at it from a more 'historical' approach. Only a large group of dragons is likely to destroy a civilization, and thus worthy of historians' note. As said, smaller groups - single pair even - can return more frequently, laying a few eggs... and they only need to clear a small area. Furthermore, historians need not be accurate, especially about the years. This is, of course, a way to allow the individual DM to determine how comfortable they are in bringing in this particular event into the game. Even if their players happen to read about this column, the players cannot say: 'Gee, it has been 2000 years since the last infestation... DRAGON ALERT!!!' Of course the young is more vulnerable to threats. Since they also take sometime to grow into power, it make sense that the parent wants to 'clear' an area for them so that the young have time to grow up somewhat, till they can fend for themselves. The size of the area should correspond to the number of eggs. The intelligent parents will probably hide a single egg - making sure that it is an isolated area, and killing whatever maybe around, even if it is just a pride of lions roaming nearby. They may also lay some magical traps, hidden magical guardians... A large group may want to destroy whole civilization, both for food (for themselves) and for protection for their young. a group of uncivilize barbarians (err... low level ones, of course) are definitely easier on the young then groups of spell-touting adventures. Why not just stay there? Well, think about it. Dragons are among the most powerful, but they also attract the most attention, often from other powerful creatures. Which parent would have their kids around when it is possible that s/he is going to be attack every other day? Laying an egg and have it hatch, and the young grow on its own... make sense and is also in line with a number of reptilian creatures. Even the 'good' dragons might see it this way. Afterall, they are dragons, not humans, so looking at it from a 'humane' point of view may not be a good idea. It also make a more interesting game. Leyline... or 'power' lines and nodes.... may not be a good idea, since they do attrack attention, again, usually from powerful creatures. But more importantly, my idea do make more sense then having the dragons native to the land. The other races, especially humans, are more likely to hunt them down to extinction. Where then, do you get dragons? They don't just pop out of no where. Given that they are powerful creatures, you can't really have a large population of dragons 'somewhere' for they are more likely to hunt humans (and other races) to extinction first. Most people also have this idea that it is often impossible for dragons to survive on any world, because nature cannot support them. Having them flying around among the stars, ravaging planets like locust also make sense. Of course they can also lay eggs somewhere else. It also make a refreshing change... an 'end-of-the-world' game that is NOT cause by some god, but a plague of dragons... You can set this up as an 'epic' game, or you scale it down for 'middle' level characters to fight a single parent ravaging the land. You can even have low level characters stumbling across an egg (disguise to look like a cubic rock with 'alien' - draconic - symbols) and other people hunting them down to get to the egg. All in all, many adventure hooks that can be generated from this idea... :cool: The dragons may also 'breed' half dragons to become guardians to the eggs... which may later become food for the young. Half dragon bulls and cows come to mind... :rolleyes: Later! K.
TolarianFlare 06-05-05, 07:37 PM	:D Complexity Complexity... How about have some of the dragons at war with each other or fighting each other especially when they view each other as threats. Also how do females chose mates. I expect dragons to be very territorial and easily agitated. If the "cliche" Exalted Dragon or Dragon Tyrant feels he is so above it all why not the other dragons or kinds of dragons as well. I think some psychotic dragons are bound to be running around killing little upstarts or rival dragons. I think Dragon wars would be exceptionally destructive while providing dragon items (body parts) in the ruins of civilizations that were caught in the crossfire.
the_one_true_shea 06-06-05, 06:02 PM	I'm hanging with the intelligence modifier.. thoug I I think I see your flare torian.. "What? No super intelligent fire drakes? They have to be stupid to stay monochrome?" Is that the thrust there? Kirby, kickin. I think your are completely correct about how the play will be affected by the dragon ecology. The dragons, particularly the "weaker" and "dumber" ones, could be a primary setting antagonist. Akin to the orc and troll combo of many game settings. "Oh crap, We must be near a hatching grounds!" - Yells the ranger.. after fifty small size man eaters come clammering over the rise. I also like the idea of evil bad guys collecting eggs and sneaking them into towns like land mines. Now, the reason I like the ley line energy trigger: The idea of having powerful ley line or special mana rich regions is an old idea round WCP. (btw have you had a chance to review my summary? or has it dropped out of view again? ) Mana rise and fall is also an idea that is not really used in allot of D&D settings (DL is the only one I can think of). Not that the concept doesn't appeare in allot of fantasy literature, just there have been .. complexities.. ;) integrating such a thing into a wieldable mechanic.. I think. I would like to use the rising and falling mana concept. I think it harmonizes with the idea of "the magic in the land" as well as provide a corrallary tide to the dragon alerts. As the energy rises (more magic available for the casters as well) there is the growing concern for hatchings. There could be a variable scale for how long an egg could have to incubate. The hatch comes when the right amount of mana has been absorbed. Each egg Item... card - Dragon Egg 2 colorless, 0/1 Tap X mana and sacrifice Dragon Egg to search your deck for one dragon card. Where X is the casting cost of the chosen Dragon Card. ... Is actually identical despite parentage. There is only one dragon "species" just different effects of the different mana absorbtion. Sorta like the Dragons are the World's "magic sponges" they constantly soak up mana energy, and grow stronger the longer the live. I imagine things like Rizwell drakes or other kinds of wyvern could co-incide with the "pure dragons" but thats the kernel of my idea for the species as a whole. ... Dragon wars... yeah! :D :D :D The Apocolypse.. the time when a hoard of dragons will devoure the entire world -gods and all?
kirbykel 06-08-05, 01:20 AM	Btw, I don't really play Magic: the Gathering, though I did try it a couple of times, many years back... but that should not stop the discussion. Given the vastness of space, dragon wars, especially in space, should be far and few in between... but woe betide the world that is actually caught in the middle. Do not really know how the setting will affect a MTG game... is there a sort of 'random monster' play that affects all player on hand? Maybe setup a deck of 'dragons' and monsters that attack everyone in the field... and if anyone defeats the 'random' monster... gets a prize of something? Anyway... One of the basic idea of having a deity or god/dess of magic is that you would expect a being of magic to 'stabilize' magic so that it doesn't change much. Unless you remove the divine aspect from the setting, it is unlikely that you have waxing and waning effect. The DL setting is due to multiple deities, who enhances their followers. If you harmonize magic with the land... you have to consider 'Feng Shui' theories... that by certain arrangement (of land) you can get more luck... or more power... which ever way you look at it. "Could it be?" The wizard hands shake as he look over the painting. "Could it be an accurate rendering of the fable Final Resting Place of the Drakes?" Even the mighty dragons do perish at times. Legend has it that the space faring dragons have a final resting place, a planet well protected by magic and traps that no one has ever discover it? If the burial ground of elephants has great loot of ivory, think of all the treasure one can find at the final resting place of dragons... "With the painting, I shall have enough of a mental picture to attempt a teleport spell!" The wizard muses. "Maybe an exploration adventuring party before I actually go there myself." K. Legends speaks of the most unholy of terror, that of Dra Tiam Necrom - the five Dracolich Sons of Tiamat, and their coming to end the world. :eek:
TolarianFlare 06-09-05, 01:36 PM	I'm hanging with the intelligence modifier.. thoug I I think I see your flare torian.. "What? No super intelligent fire drakes? They have to be stupid to stay monochrome?" Well its kinda like classes in D&D, consider the color the class. At a certain level the Dragon can pick up other classes or continue to level up their current class. Imagine a Gladiator :r: type Dragon which spars with a Knight :w: type Dragon. Now their subclasses would make the interaction quite interesting especially if the Gladiator has some Necromancer :b: levels and the Knight is into elemental Wizardry :r: or :u: and Clerical spells :w: . BTW do Celestial bodies influence magic in D&D? The Moon and Sun and other bodies influence mana quite a bit (I think they might influence dragons somewhat ) eg. Blood Moon Pale Moon Darkest Hour False dawn Shifting Sky
the_one_true_shea 06-14-05, 03:58 PM	Dragon Lance has a very nice (and rarely used in my XP) moon cycle. The three different branches of magic are each tethered to a moon. As the ascendant moon waxes and wanes the casters gain effective CL bonuses. Elementalist classes.... What if there were special unnamed world elementalist classes? Literally like PrCs but specially worked up for this place. Dragons would have access to them natually, maybe even put the prerequisite of dragon type onto the prestige class. Also!! What about this idea - its an offshoot of the dragon thing - types Particularly since types occure in both rule sets... other than Dragon is there one that is shared by both sets.. umm, i'll get the type lists for D&D (gimmie a minute) Torain? Ya think you can pull me the current types for M:tG. You should start a thread with them, I'll toss up the D20's and we could cover more ground there than just dragon and elemental types.
TolarianFlare 06-14-05, 04:28 PM	In terms of "types" I am a bit lost. Do you mean in terms of kinds of dragons and element types? Whoa whoa whoa .... Eep if you mean creature types .... *faints* :eek: Mistform Ultimus...that thing in the link has every creature type it is like some ultimate shapeshifter illusion thing .... let me find you the link to the periodic update Ultimus Update (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/arcana/595) There it is ... as of last update it is a .... Ok I am off to a new thread...
the_one_true_shea 06-16-05, 01:04 PM	Given the vastness of space, dragon wars, especially in space, should be far and few in between... but woe betide the world that is actually caught in the middle. Actually K, Im thinking that a "dragon war" could be occuring in more than one location in the unnamed world, constantly. You going all stratospheric on on us Kirbykel! I hadn't set my sights past heaven's ring. You wanna make a dragon moon? I think that ... (nix) ... I'm just not certain what to say about interplanetary travel at the moment, maybe by the time I get to the bottom of this. Do not really know how the setting will affect a MTG game... no randomizing (well ya shuffle the cards and let me tell ya! - one of these days Im gonna get over to the M:tG boards and start makin rules over there too - never owned more than "lucky charm cards" (I have fruit of paradise and a fireball in my wallet) but I have nonetheless concocted a "planer" magic format) - the setting drives the flavor and the creative structure - setting and encounter considerations are way more D&D concerns "Anyway..." I have been told that I use that transistion too much.. ;) Anyway... One of the basic idea of having a deity or god/dess of magic is that you would expect a being of magic to 'stabilize' magic so that it doesn't change much. Unless you remove the divine aspect from the setting, it is unlikely that you have waxing and waning effect. The DL setting is due to multiple deities, who enhances their followers. If you harmonize magic with the land... you have to consider 'Feng Shui' theories... that by certain arrangement (of land) you can get more luck... or more power... which ever way you look at it. Yeah, thats the idea.. both really. How bout this one? The petty dieties that reside on the ring of heaven could have "astrological movements" that can effect the power accesibility of casters.. basically keeping with that divine manipulation concept. I do believe that the ley lines concept has had allot of support. Also I don't think any current d20 setting includes a mechanical ley line concept. Well, Rifts used a 20-sided, but it aint d20. oooh, not dragon related but hey! why not? Ley Line Attunement Enchantment ... (casting cost? High? Low? Color?) Select Five basic lands. When you tap anyone of the selected basic lands, you may choose to generate mana equal to the mana you would generate by tapping the entire set of basic lands. You may tap a selected basic land for less than the maximum amount. Legends speaks of the most unholy of terror, that of Dra Tiam Necrom - the five Dracolich Sons of Tiamat, and their coming to end the world. :eek: Dra Tiam Necrom. :gah: umm, I like 'em! Are they from "Beyond the Ring of Heaven?"
Marvgamer 06-18-05, 09:05 AM	I hope you'll pardon my intrusion, but I was just browsing around and this topic caught my attention. I was content just to read your interesting discussions until the last bit about ley lines. The harmonizing of magic to the land. It's a very good one, but how about the the harmonizing of the land to magic? You see, if you've read the Book of Change written by chinese scholars, the D&D equivalent of magical energy wanes and waxes in accordance to the seasons, the time of world (night, day, hour), spiritual and divine influences as well as the movement of the heavenly bodies across the multiverse (basically astrology). This same energy can also be influenced by the actions of mortals or significant events such as a great battle or the reincarnation of a significant individual. These energies are classified as positive (yin) and negative (yang). Based on this little bit of information, ley lines exists everywhere around you, sort of like the force in star wars (incidentally, star wars inspiration came from the book of change as well). But we can identify areas where the drakes/dragons might migrate to to lay eggs or even reside. By geography, certain elements naturally pool around significant places which the book deems most excellent for building cities, structures and such. A mountain with a wide valley at it's base would be conducive for agriculture, signifying positive energies. This same mountain, with a flowing river in the valley is even better, as it has "life flowing energies". But put a lake at it's base and it's best to avoid it altogether because of the pooling of "uncontrollable energy". By lunar movement, during the waxing of the moon there would be more positive energy with the full moon presenting the greatest level of positive potential whereas the waxing of the moon produces mostly negative energy. Energies are considered norm during moonless nights. Chinese deities and immortals exert great influences on mortal affairs as well. Even the Emperor himself was considered to rule china by the mandate of heaven. Basically if said emperor behaved and was responsible things went well for china wheread if the emperor was a lousy one you'd probably expect more drought and such not. So, if the emperor was good, basically the celestials(gods & immortals) themselves would bless the land with much positive energy in the form of plentiful rain, good harvests, fertile earth, smooth flowing rivers, tolerable sunshine, mild winters, even better relations with your neighbours. But if the emperor was a bit lax that's when all sorts of things go wrong, which often leads to rebellion. By astrology (or planar events if you prefer), we could also have a potential rise and fall of these same energies. I'd imagine the growth of these drakes/dragons to depend very much on the energies they're exposed to. The only problem would be differentiating between these positive/negative energies in elemntal terms. For this, I'd suggest taking an example from chinese lunar calendars. Certain years was good for certain types of people born under an auspice. These auspices were again divided into elements of earth, fire, water, wind and wood. So the phases of the year would be good for the person/creature most closely associated with the elemental auspice year. Anyways, I think I've spoken too much already. Thank you for your kind indulgence so far. I'm not saying you should adapt your ideas to whatever is written here you understand. Merely suggestive ideas if you will. Cheers.
Capfalcon 06-21-05, 10:57 AM	hmmm. maybe the ley lines that are elemental (red, green, blue, white, black) are also positive and negitive. For example, a red dragon that developed at a positive ley line would embody more of the positive aspects of red. for example, it would be passionate and loving but still able to inflict mass destruction when it needed to, while a dragon that developed at a negitive ley line would embody the negitive aspects, such as random and indiscriminate destruction and hatred and selfishness. maybe dragon could develop a taint from being at a negitive ley line too long... anyway, the positive and negitive ley lines would be as common depending on the element you are looking for. You could find a positive white ley line easily enough, but a negitive white ley line..... that could be hard, but they are there. so the way i see it :u: 50% positive / 50% neg information doesnt play favorites so this would be a relitivly neutral color. :w: 90% pos/ 10% neg white dragons are the healers and protectors mostly :r: 25 pos / 75 neg red dragons tend to be pretty selfish. :b: 10% pos / 90% neg :g: 75% pos / 25% neg now what happens when a dragon develops at a negitive site or positive site first and then at the oposite site next? Sounds like a good role playing conflict :cool: btw marvgamer, in case you didnt guess, i think your idea totally rocks.
the_one_true_shea 07-05-05, 06:58 PM	With a powerful ley line concept being used to support the draconic invasions.. what about the effects that will have on the other inhabitants? Do humans get trait mods (Fireland Tribal 3:r: / prot from red) or something? What about the highly elemental elves. Also - local powerful pools of ley energy would need to be part of the description of any given area. We have been talking about the cascades lately - lots of green, blue, and black on the floor, switch black for white up in the canopy? What do ley lines look like?
kirbykel 07-08-05, 05:51 AM	Ley lines... you can liken it to a shimmering curtain of colors that suggests movement or 'flow' in a certain direction. Others sees it in different colors, suggesting different elements may be involved in shaping the lines. The blue of calm water, the red of ragin fire, the green of life enbodied by the vast forest, the black of void life, the brilliance of white glowing power enbodied by life in general, the near translucence of air and the many other shades of the many elements that form the world. Some sees it as water flowing smoothly at times, raging like the sea at times. Others sees it as the wind, only visible when strong movement arises, and only during certain times. Yet others can only feel it, not quite touching it, not quite tasting it, not quite smelling it. Some feel it with but any one of the five senses. Others experience it with all five. And then there are those who sense it with means beyond the five sense. To see it is but one of the many ways to experience the power of the ley lines. But to most, ley line is but a myth, like the girl in a red hood and her encounters with a talking wolf. Nobody knows where it begins, nor ends. Sometime, two or more lines cross, and forms pools of power known as nodes. Such nodes are rare, and prized by creatures of great power, for tapping into such a node means power almost unlimited. The Sages of the East believe that such lines are formed by the land. Literally, the 'Wind' and the 'Water' shaped power into streams and to be buried into these lines or the nodes will bring great fortune to the descendends. Again, I stress that it is not likely that dragon eggs be found near ley lines, for they should be guarded by many powerful creatures. Having said that, a powerful dragon might benefit from living near ley lines. But it is somewhat strange that ley lines can only be found on earth. Why not having such lines arching through the air? On a larger scale, we can even have ley lines, or rather, I would call it 'worm holes' that connects between planets and the various heavenly bodies. Such lines may be the guiding factor that moves the dragons through the stars. Nodes among the stars would be a contentious point for dragons, for to own a node, means literally to rule part of the stars! I hesitate to bring gods into the scene. I firmly believe that gods should not be physically present on the material plane. Such a gathering of power (even a minor deity) would warp everything nearby. Hence when a being ascend or descend, they are moved to a higher (or lower) plane of existence. Cosmic rule will dictate that the material plane be 'destroyed' by actual physical presence of divinity. That's why in most books, gods sent out their servants to do their work. Why not do it themselves? Certain they are more powerful then the servants! Hence my first suggestion: A plague of dragons in a doomsday setting, instead of some god that is out to destroy the world. I also suggest to create a thread on this forum for ley lines. Ley line is an interesting subject by itself. K. 'Dra Tiam Necrom' is a spur of the moment creation of mine. :) I claim copyright to it! :D
the_one_true_shea 07-17-05, 04:19 PM	What if the Gods were "barred" from coming down to the world's surface? And the manifestation of their descending (and violating the agreement) is always a fluctuation of the "ley lines"? Im presuming they are living physically on the rings for this comment. The ley lines are the natural "habitat" for the dragons, and the dragons need the ley lines to incubate their eggs. Without ley energy the eggs are little more than breakfast for some foragers. Dragons (and the occasional "other" thing) are generally in control of any node you run accross. There could deffinitly be some notable exceptions where nodes are held by men and/or other civilized (or uncivilized) humanoids, but due to the dragons inherint connection to the ley (sometimes called "dragon") lines. Then the gods (the petty gods) break the rules, come trappsing around the surface and wreaking havok on the ley lines. Avatars are no problem, messangers even less so, but when the god decides to walk the surface the unavoidable consequence is the bending of the ley lines. As opposed to going so far as to say that the physical presence of a diety warps the material world - it warps metaphysical world. Those that have the power to see those things would be able to detect the presence of a deity that way. Dieties could also intentionally come down and redirect mana flows - "I think that town could do for a swarm of dragon hatchlings - Oh look, there are a bunch of dragon eggs right there! Just hop on down, push that flow over a little bit that way (**** off that green dragon (like I care - diety)) and poof - instant massacre!" I have always been a fan of using ley line concepts to allow the magically inclined to travel "siderial" style.
TolarianFlare 07-31-05, 11:47 AM	What about Dragon Ghosts? I am sure some Dragon souls from some previous wars and such might haunt areas. Cyborgs ( Dragons that were mortally wounded and kept alive using artifice of themselves or another race) and Artifact Dragons ( somewhat like Simulacrum of Dragons made by the same or a similar race)
Luigi_l5r 08-29-05, 09:07 PM	That's the best Idea, I have nothing against it, I would buy it and play it!
Luigi_l5r 08-30-05, 08:41 PM	Sorry not any more, Mine is the best, but yours is pretty good.
the_one_true_shea 11-02-05, 09:25 PM	Shin'La, World's Heart Dragon 4:r::u::w::b::g: summon dragon legend - 4/4 when you play Shin'La Designate one type of basic land. x is eual to the number of those lands in play :t: deal x damage to target creature :t: Gain X life :t: Prevent X damage Sacrifice Shin'La and destroy all lands of the designated type "... and upon his coming of age Shin'La burst from the heart of the worl. His power tore through the shell of the world.. and brought the sunlight to the world's heart for the first time..." ---------- Mariloo, World's Heart Dragon 2:r::u::w::b::g: summon dragon legend - 6/6 when you play Mariloo choose a color. Anytime a spell of the chosen color is cast you gain one life. Mariloo has protection from the chosen color. :t: Put a mark token on target creature. When a creature with the mark goes to the graveyard you gain mana of the chosen color equal to the creature's toughness. A subtle dragon.. Mariloo knits ley lines like yarn, and never lets anything, or anyone, go to waste. Hmm, yeah thats the ticket!
Galen 11-02-05, 09:44 PM	Shin'La, World's Heart Dragon 4:r::u::w::b::g: summon dragon legend - 4/4 when you play Shin'La Designate one type of basic land. x is eual to the number of those lands in play :t: deal x damage to target creature :t: heal x damage Sacrifice Shin'La and destroy all lands of the designated type "... and upon his coming of age Shin'La burst from the heart of the worl. His power tore through the shell of the world.. and brought the sunlight to the world's heart for the first time..." A minor correction. That would have to be: Prevent x damage.
Rny2 11-02-05, 10:07 PM	A minor correction. That would have to be: Prevent x damage. Or we could do Gain X life or Prevent X damage to make it similar to healing salve
the_one_true_shea 11-04-05, 09:48 PM	Or we could do Gain X life or Prevent X damage to make it similar to healing salve Yeah, "Gain" thats the term I was looking for. Prevent wasnt what I was thinking but I think it will fit right in with the other abilities
the_one_true_shea 01-28-06, 11:16 PM	Do you think the Kaiser can fit into this scheme Dindrin?
Rny2 01-28-06, 11:42 PM	Kaisers could work between the players (breaching the divinity-dragon layer) and the Hibryn working between creatures (breaching the dragon-mortal layer)
the_one_true_shea 02-02-06, 08:55 PM	Yes, the Kaiser have more of divine qualities in the their theme and the Hibyrn have more mortal issues in their . However, when I say "how do the Kaiser" fit into this I am refrering to the more [i]technical question. The Hibyrn are red/white/black tri Currently the Kaiser have been associated with green.. I think that by this system they should be Green/Red, but Im curious as to Dindrin's take on it. What do you think? The blade snakes are obviously removed from this equation, being purely green creatures, but since this setup associates mono-elemental dragons with "dumb dragons" I think the Kaiser should be at least dual-elemental. I could see green/white and green/red/white for them as well.
the_one_true_shea 02-04-06, 09:06 PM	A proposal for aligning the types of the Dragons in the world with the Five Mana colors of D&D. A dragon's IQ is related to the number of elements that are associated with it. Single colored dragons are powerful yet unintelligent and are refered to as Drakes. Dual color dragons are "average intelligence" and tri-elementals are more intelligent than the average. Four and Five color dragons are more intelligent still. The List so far.... Monochromatics - Mountin, Island, Plains, Swamp, and Forest "Drakes" Silver Wolf Dragons (green), ... White/Blue - Cloud Dragon Green/Blue - Cascades Dragon red/white/black - Hybern red/white/green/black - Kaiser 5-color - "World's Heart" each unique by nature. Shen-la, ....
Drindin 02-05-06, 02:01 AM	The Kaiser, I think, would almost be a 'colourless' dragon type. Before their fall to Blade Snakes (which I'm thinking would probably be more red, because of their association with desers), the Kaiser were actually cut off from typical magic, forced to channel Riz-Ira, Psionics, and other such 'forbidden' magics. And before THAT, the Kaiser's were masters of all sorts of magic, in that they were as flexible as humans in this sense. So, maybe they'd play a role similar to humans in terms of M:TG? Imagine this: Kaiser water mage. Certain Kaisers live near the sea, and they learned it's ways. Kaiser Ranger Not all dragons feel the need to fly. Or something like that.
the_one_true_shea 02-07-06, 04:50 PM	I dont think its a good idea. Heres why, This system creates a magical ecology that is consistant. More like classifying. My judgment of that dragon's elemental makeup (kinda aristotilian only M:tG!) is that its a red/white/green. Desert (red/white) with a nurturing streak building cities for humanoids (green). Perhaps no green, but you said green before.. and like maybe no red! Just green/white. The problem there is that with "mono-duo-tri-etc-etc" being linked to intelligence - that requires the Kaiser we speak of to be about 3 if not for elemental. They are fully civilized and capable of advanced magical rituals! Thats a four if you ask me. Black/Blue/White/Green? One of the Big boys! Hybernese are only 3's without their society to back them up. The blade snakes have of course "shed their divinity" to become normal magical beasts.. or abberations.. but they would be "wyrm" instead of dragon by M:tG. There is a similar phenomena here in that the elves are also aligned to the elements. Like the dragons they are immortals... see this is what the dragons of color theory is. Its not supposed to be mean that the dragons are the most dominate force on the world. Its an idea of how we can create an internal consistancy that aligns with the external realities of the two systems. The mana of this world is very strong. Stronger even than some of the other M:tG settings.. maybe, but that is to reflect through the filter of the D&D I think. Instead of the Blue HD progression in the SRD we will work up an Island Dragon, and instead of .. well I think I want to keep the Mountin Dragon the same as the red.. but take away the spells, lower its intelligence.. maybe a few other things. But the Kaiser HD would look alot more like the Gold I think.. what color is gold in manalingo? Umm, is there a "gold dragon" in one of the blocks?
Drindin 02-09-06, 02:06 AM	I know that by DND standards, the Gold Dragon is a dragon of Water and Fire. It can breath underwater, but it's primary breathweapon is a cone of fire (unless underwater, in which case it's a super-heated jet of water). I'm think the Kaiser would, most probably, be Red/White/Green/Black. Red and white because of the desert, green and black because of their poisonous abilities (they do have a poisonous bite, I believe).
the_one_true_shea 02-18-06, 10:26 PM	I know that by DND standards, the Gold Dragon is a dragon of Water and Fire. Rock! So Red/White/Green/Black! I'll add it to the list! deffinitaly on the big list ;) What do you think? Keep the gold dragons? Makes as good a Red/Blue dragon as anything.. really sets a benchmark for the whole system too.... If "gold dragons" are duo.. whats a quad kaiser's progression gonna look like!?! Considering these are mythical dragons (replaced by the "lesser" or non-draconic blade snakes) we could write them up purdy powerful.. by D&D dragon standards!
Drindin 02-18-06, 10:30 PM	I think they'd be along the same lines as a gold dragon, maybe even less powerful. So a gold dragon would probably be more a 'red/red/blue/blue'.
the_one_true_shea 02-18-06, 10:50 PM	I hadn't thought of red/red/blue/blue as being quad - thats just more powerful version of a dual... but.. So taking the Kaiser as a good example of a quad elemental.. but refrencing the current Gold Dragon build as the benchmark for a quad?
Drindin 02-27-06, 08:57 PM	Well, I view as a quad because it's a dual times two. Power of four.
the_one_true_shea 03-09-06, 08:21 PM	The heuristic doesnt count how much mana - just the different types. A dragon that requires 8 blue to cast is still "mono" bacause he's all blue. A big blue most likely, old deffinitly, powerful without question. Tacitly more powerful than a 1red/1blue/1green/1black/1white - "quint" for sheer Attack/Defense/Single Ability. By the card anyway. Thats why, using this system red/red/blue/blue /=4 elements. There are only 2 elements involved red&blue. We can say that the Volcano Dragon (red/blue?) usually costs 2red/2blue to cast... and still say its "dual" ... we can also then have a "elder volcano dragon" that costs 4red/2blue - and deals more damage or something. How about a Star heart Volcano dragon - 2colorless/1blue/1red/1white.... does this make the volcano dragons tri color? Not quite - the Star Heart Volcano dragon has a little white in its casting costs - the species is still dual emental. Its the difference between casting cost and elemental affiliation.
Drindin 03-10-06, 01:31 AM	The heuristic doesnt count how much mana - just the different types. A dragon that requires 8 blue to cast is still "mono" bacause he's all blue. A big blue most likely, old deffinitly, powerful without question. Tacitly more powerful than a 1red/1blue/1green/1black/1white - "quint" for sheer Attack/Defense/Single Ability. By the card anyway. Thats why, using this system red/red/blue/blue /=4 elements. There are only 2 elements involved red&blue. We can say that the Volcano Dragon (red/blue?) usually costs 2red/2blue to cast... and still say its "dual" ... we can also then have a "elder volcano dragon" that costs 4red/2blue - and deals more damage or something. How about a Star heart Volcano dragon - 2colorless/1blue/1red/1white.... does this make the volcano dragons tri color? Not quite - the Star Heart Volcano dragon has a little white in its casting costs - the species is still dual emental. Its the difference between casting cost and elemental affiliation. Ah, I see. Gold dragon's aren't really volcanic... just... golden. :P So, more powerful, but not quad-elemental. Makes sense.