Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WizO_Iyala 06-21-03, 07:57 AM	So I'm trying my hardest to put aside my Shadow obsession for a whille, it'd be interesting to do a bit more work on the other elemental forms of magic if we're going to be using them and leylines :) Bandido's summary of Air Magic: (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=292;t=000 003;p=6#000127) As a child, doesn't everyone yearn to fly? You look at the birds in the sky, and wish you could join them, soaring free through the eternal blue.... And then you grow up. You stop thinking such childish things, and become serious, never letting the wonder of youth ever colour the way you see the world again.... Not me. I chose to keep that sense of wonder, and now I can fly.... I am free! - Marrin, air mage. Air mages are generally thought of us children who never grew up - they are thought of as being flighty, fickle, and prone to flights of fancy. In many cases, this is accurate, and so air magic has gained its somewhat chequered reputation. Air mages are simply seen as being unreliable and good-for-nothing, and their magic as only being useful for those out to make mischief. Air mages excel in the following areas: Illusion Travel magic (i.e. flight) Weather ControlAir mages are generally badly thought of in urban areas - they are seen as trouble-makers, and normally ostracised, although they are sometimes sought out by merchants who wish to reach their destinations more quickly. In rural areas, they are somewhat tolerated for their ability to influence weather. However, few places have a resident air mage - air magic seems to call those who have wanderlust, and many air mages are always on the lookout for adventure, travelling to the far-flung corners of the globe, and seeing all that the world has to offer. I really like the concept of an air mage bing fairly fickle on the whole, it fits with the air-like characteristics. I can imagine them being thought of unreliable but necessary, especially when it comes to travel magic. I can't remember where the idea of enhanced travel along leylines was thrown up but I think this would fit with air magic, perhaps if they could travel further than mages of other elemts but with a less predictable destination. Although Air mages may not be entirely trusted by society as a whole, I can imagine them being very sociable people, particularly among mages of the same element. Their friendships would be very close though transitory, drifting between groups. I imagine them being fairly easy going and hard to anger, the free, wandering spirit that very rarely holds a grudge. I'm picturing the rather artistic friend who always turns up an hour late and forgets to call you back, always a little out of touch with the world everyone else is linving in.
Tolarian 06-21-03, 02:52 PM	So the typical Air mage would be a luftmensh then ;)
WizO_Iyala 06-21-03, 04:25 PM	And if I had any idea what that word means, Tolarian, I'd know if I agree with you or not :)
Tolarian 06-21-03, 04:57 PM	The word comes from Yioddish, translating literally into some like "air person". Such people are sometimes said in English to have their heads in the clouds.
Bandido 06-22-03, 10:13 AM	Originally posted by Tolarian The word comes from Yioddish, translating literally into some like "air person". Such people are sometimes said in English to have their heads in the clouds. 'Head in the clouds' was exactly the phrase I was thinking of when writing the description of the air mage. Of course, in this case, it might also be literal. :D Iyala: Virtually all of your description is spot-on as to what I was thinking. :)
Dream Spinner 06-22-03, 10:58 AM	I completely agree with all this, but there is one thing I wonder about: control over weather. To me, weather witches are volatile and moody. Some of the time, happy and carefree, but suddenly angry or depressed. Quick to anger, but quick to forgiveness, a weather witch's power would slightly dip into fire and water (as well as earth, if we consider earthquakes and such weather). Weather witches may also be ostracized completely because a sudden flare of anger may result in bruising, crop-destroying hail. Control of their magic is hard to learn and to keep and because weather witches usually turn up in less populated areas (with less people experienced at recognizing naturalborn magic), they may be thought to be cursed or possessed. This may be supported by the mage's strange looks, such as strands of lightning coursing through her hair.
WizO_Iyala 06-22-03, 11:27 AM	So maybe a weather mage might be better placed with a fire alignment? That would fit with heat but also the idea of forcing their power onto the other elements. It would literaly be a case of channeling fire into stuff but the persoanlity type might fit more with a fiery temper. Air mages could keep control of the winds but not weather as a whole. Or maybe they might have the ability to prevent weather for a short time, for example holding off a storm, rather than actually changing it. It does make some sense, air mages seem more the sort to go with the flow rather than forcing the weather to change, I can imagine them diverting of guiding the winds but not creating a tsunami or holding off the rain.
Dream Spinner 06-23-03, 12:56 PM	Originally posted by WizO_Iyala So maybe a weather mage might be better placed with a fire alignment? That would fit with heat but also the idea of forcing their power onto the other elements. It would literaly be a case of channeling fire into stuff but the persoanlity type might fit more with a fiery temper. Air mages could keep control of the winds but not weather as a whole. Or maybe they might have the ability to prevent weather for a short time, for example holding off a storm, rather than actually changing it. It does make some sense, air mages seem more the sort to go with the flow rather than forcing the weather to change, I can imagine them diverting of guiding the winds but not creating a tsunami or holding off the rain. Actually, since water and wind makes up the most of weather, weather mages should really be of the water element, not fire. The chaotic nature also works with water because water is ever-changing, from complete calm beauty to armageddon stormy. Fire is only there because of lightning. Plus, the randomy trail of thinking is red in M:tG, but not neccesarily fire. Actually, all 4 elements combine both chaos (tornadoes, overgrowth, earthquakes, wildfires, hurricanes) and calmness (slight breezes, gardens, flat lands, hearths, pools).
WizO_Iyala 06-23-03, 05:02 PM	Actually I'm thinking of chaotic, erraticness because of the phrase "fiery temper" :) My main reason for considering fire being the best at weather magic ws the suddent thought that the fact tht water and air are most aligned with weather might be exactly why they're not so good at it. If they're both in tune with their elements, maybe it would take a different one, such as fire, to stir them up and force them into other areas. But it really was a random thought that occured to me while trying not to make too many assumptions about the elements :)
Tolarian 06-25-03, 06:18 PM	Thermal disequilibria inhere the initiating elements for storms, tornados and other metorological phenomena, so fire is appropriate.
Dream Spinner 06-26-03, 03:23 AM	Originally posted by Tolarian Thermal disequilibria inhere the initiating elements for storms, tornados and other metorological phenomena, so fire is appropriate. You know, the first time I looked at that, I thought you just pressed a bunch of random keys, but then, I focused and saw it was just a bunch of random keys. Just kidding, but anyway, I don't really think magic cares about the science of things. They wouldn't increase/decrease the air pressure and evaporate some more water, and do all this to create a storm. They go, "Hmm. I'd like a storm today." wave their staffs around and speak Latin or whatever and poof! the storm is here. Seriously, magic attributes things to elements for the resulting effects and for the symbolism, if you know what I mean. I don't think I'm making sense...and yes, I've lost it.:confused:
WizO_Iyala 06-26-03, 05:38 PM	*hands it back to Dream Spinner* ;) The fire weather magic was just a thought, perhaps not a very well thought out thought. I just don't want to feel that we're taking the easy or obvious path with the elements. Although a large part of it will probably be those intuitive things that fit with the way we feel about elemtents, it just seemed right to throw up something a little more odd :) I thought I'd take a shot at painting the sort of person I had in mind as a typical air mage. Blond people should in no way take this as a suggestion that all blond people are airheads, it's just based roughly on a friend of mine that fits the description of the air mage percfectly :) (and yes, she was that thin) Any thoughts/comments are welcome :)
Dream Spinner 06-27-03, 03:55 PM	That looks wonderful! I also like the clothes. And she looks at peace, which is what I'd think is common for an air mage. One thing I'm wondering about: What is that she standing on? One question: Where do we decide what type of element atypical magic go into?
nick012000 06-28-03, 06:34 AM	LOL! you've given the air mage blonde hair! the airhead air mage!
WizO_Iyala 06-28-03, 07:10 AM	Mostly it's because other women I've drawn have generally had brown hair (which has nothing to do with the fact that it's easier to do than blond of course ;)) <girly magazine talk> but mostly it's because I wanted to use those colors in her clothes and someone with a darker complexion would have real trouble looking good in shades that light. </girly magazine talk> She's only one example of what I personaly was thinking. How exactly do you characterise atypical magic, Dream Spinner? Would it be stuff that doesn't fit into any other category or magic that is the opposite of an element? or do I totally not understand the question? :) And she's standing on a sort of rocky spire/outcrop ype thing very high up. I blame that part of the picture on the fact that I can't actually draw rock. The white stuff might make it a little confusing, it's supposed to me mist/cloud.
Bandido 06-28-03, 08:35 AM	I like the picture a lot. :bounce: The colours are very good. Dream Spinner: Water mages having weather control? Well, as you two seem to agree on that, I'm not too fussed.
Dream Spinner 06-28-03, 12:50 PM	Originally posted by WizO_Iyala How exactly do you characterise atypical magic, Dream Spinner? Would it be stuff that doesn't fit into any other category or magic that is the opposite of an element? or do I totally not understand the question? :) Well, that pretty much changes from thing to thing. Atypical magic might be like thread magic. Do we need to catergorize each kind of magic under an element. Is magic completely composed by these elements (I think including Shadow) so that any magic can fall into one or more elements? What about the powers of the gods, divine powers? Is the power of the gods magical or simply divine? :confused: Originally posted by WizO_Iyala And she's standing on a sort of rocky spire/outcrop ype thing very high up. I blame that part of the picture on the fact that I can't actually draw rock. The white stuff might make it a little confusing, it's supposed to me mist/cloud. Oh, I know it's like rock and the white is cloud/mist, it looks like all that. I just wanted to know what exactly was she standing on. A mountaintop or what. That's all.
Dream Spinner 06-28-03, 01:01 PM	Originally posted by nick012000 LOL! you've given the air mage blonde hair! the airhead air mage! Did you like ignore what she said right before the picture? Or did you just not read it?
WizO_Iyala 06-28-03, 04:40 PM	Originally posted by Dream Spinner Oh, I know it's like rock and the white is cloud/mist, it looks like all that. I just wanted to know what exactly was she standing on. A mountaintop or what. That's all. Oh good :) I'm glad it at least looked like rock :) Don't know if it would really be a mountaintop, she'd probably be freezing to death if that was the case, I imagined it more as on the tip of a rocky spire by the sea, the mist might be enhanced by her magic rather than being entirely natural. It certainly wasn't any specific location that I had in mind :) Originally posted by Dream Spinner Well, that pretty much changes from thing to thing. Atypical magic might be like thread magic. Do we need to catergorize each kind of magic under an element. Is magic completely composed by these elements (I think including Shadow) so that any magic can fall into one or more elements? What about the powers of the gods, divine powers? Is the power of the gods magical or simply divine? :confused: Okay, I'm still very confused, if we're talking about different methods of accessing magic, I don't see that they would need to be asigned to a specific elemets. They might have an alignment but it wouldn't have to be limited to one area. Thinking back to some of the examples given on the old board by Dox, a mage who uses candles to cast might find it easier to tap into earth-sourced magic of shadow magic whereas a runecaster might have a stronger affinity to water or air magic (those links just off the top of my head). I'm wondering if we should have the "nature of magic" thread back for the general stuff we still need to sort out,
Dream Spinner 06-28-03, 05:36 PM	Do we have to? That thread was such a headache. I could only read like 3 posts each day before giving up.
WizO_Iyala 06-28-03, 05:50 PM	*shrugs* of course not. It's just that the general aspects of our magic system are probably too general for specific element threads. I could change the title of this thread to cover all elements but I think they really need to be kept seperate for a while to help them stay distinctive.
Dream Spinner 06-29-03, 04:02 PM	So, we'll have 4 threads defining what each element's magic does and is? And perhaps another one that defines the ley lines and basically explains it? I think you smarter people still haven't completely finished the ley lines, yet, though.
WizO_Iyala 06-29-03, 06:07 PM	Well we can have them all in one thread if you want, once we've developed one element we can move onto the next, I guess nothing is going to take over to the extent that my Shadow Magic ranting did ;) I'll change the thread title :) When it comes to leylines, we're certainly pretty close to having is sorted I think. Then again, it got a bit confused by the end of the thread I think. What still needs sorting if we've going to use the system?
nick012000 06-29-03, 07:10 PM	Originally posted by Dream Spinner quote: Originally posted by nick012000 LOL! you've given the air mage blonde hair! the airhead air mage! Did you like ignore what she said right before the picture? Or did you just not read it?Did you like ignore what she said right before the picture? Or did you just not read it? Yes, i did, and all the personality traits desribed seem to play right into the dumb blonde stereotype.
WizO_Iyala 06-29-03, 07:24 PM	I'll confess that I actually follow quite a few of those traits myself. I can drift off into my own world and be really quite disconnected from everyone else :) And I'm not at all blond :D I think I have a definate natural Air/Shadow alignment :) One problem we may have with Air Magic is that it seems far more accesible than the other elements. Water, fire and shadow would have localised spots of strength while being accesible everywhere, Air magic really is everywhere. What might exist to keep an air mage from accessing their source? Might air leylines exist as lines just above the ground? Or would there be somethng in the land or the air which would casuse a localised increase in the strength of air magic/leyline?
Bandido 06-29-03, 07:43 PM	Air magic would probably be stronger in areas of unusual wind features - a windswept valley, El Nino (I couldn't find n-tilde), or somethig similar. It might just be when something interesting wind-wise is going on, giving the strength of air magic a fickle nature, just like air magic itself!
Dream Spinner 06-29-03, 11:23 PM	Iyala: I really don't know what was decided in the thread. :confused: Just to make sure, Shadow isn't an actual element, is it? Just a type of magic, right? Nick: Okay, blunt truth.... I thought that with the ley lines, magic of every type runs through these ley lines, all over the world. Accessable pretty much anywhere.
Bandido 06-30-03, 10:59 AM	What was decided in the Nature of Magic thread? Precisely nothing. :bored: However, I like the ley lines idea, and so does everyone else, it seems, so let's go with that! :D The magic was supposed to be accessible everywhere, but stronger in places rich in that element. The problem is that air is everywhere, so air mages would be stronger everywhere, which is unfair.
Dream Spinner 06-30-03, 02:01 PM	I see. Yeah, air-focused ley lines would be ever-changing and unreliable. That seems very fitting.
WizO_Iyala 06-30-03, 08:15 PM	Originally posted by Bandido What was decided in the Nature of Magic thread? Precisely nothing. :bored: However, I like the ley lines idea, and so does everyone else, it seems, so let's go with that! :DYeah but that "nothing" was getting smaller all the time and narrowing down :) Just reeeeaaally slowly. After months of discussion it comes down to "let's go with that" :D I'm all for it. I love the leylines, always have. On the issue of air magic, maybe I was looking at it wrong. Air itself might be utterly useless to air mages, they need the leylines to translate it, for lack of a better word. Air leylines might follow the wind streams though it would be utterly ambiguous as to whether the wind patterns cause the leylines or the leylines draw the wind along them. In keeping with the nature of air magic, air leylines would be more random and unordered, marked in swirls and waves over the land, fading out like the wind or concentrating in a few single spots for no apparent reason. This isn't to suggest the lines would move, or that the wind would follow the leylines precicely, they'd be more like lines of force rather than paths. In the same way that when you stir your finger around and around in a bowl of water, the water doesn't all end up following your finger along but it is drawn by the force of your finger. So air leylines would represent the traditional strong points in the land over which air acts, which seems fairly fitting. Any thoughts? I realise ths would have serious implications for the interractions of air magic with the other elemental leylines but it seems right for the themes and I think it could work.
Dream Spinner 06-30-03, 11:41 PM	Iyala, so huh? I think it does, but explain how where air magic-focused leylines appear differ from Bandido's idea. (Does that sentence make sense?)
WizO_Iyala 07-01-03, 03:33 AM	The difference is in the leylines rather than the location of the points. The strong points would still be at the interestingwind points (sometimes in the middle of an empty plain where paths of air might meet). But the main feeling of the leyline discussion was that the leylines were lines, the characteristics of the air leylines I rambled about would probbly be distuictly different to the leylines of other elements.
Dream Spinner 07-01-03, 04:17 AM	I see. So, yours aren't really lines, but, I don't know, cords of air magic, that are pretty much travel with the wind? I get it.
Bandido 07-01-03, 06:23 AM	Dream Spinner: That's 'differs', not 'differ.' :) .....I think. Iyala: so what you're saying is that the line between two 'strong points' would have a ley line in between them, but instead of being a constant source of energy, it would flicker, swirl, vanish, reappear, and change shape slightly over time? That sounds good.
WizO_Iyala 07-01-03, 07:36 PM	The idea is that the strong points themselves would be the main sources, rather than being simple points of strength they might be more elaborate patterns spread over maybe a quarter of a mile (larger area but maybe less raw power in any one spot?) The lines between them would not be regimented or particularly predictable. Perhaps the leylines for air would take the form of a sort of cosmic channel which would sometimes pulse with magic (over a space of days?) and sometimes be "dry" depending on the weather. The individual points of strength would always be there because they would be a force constantly acting on the air though the effects would be different depending on conditions. The "default" power for an air leyline would be a still day. A windy day might fire up a few of the interconnecting lines and maybe variations in any other conditions, such as rain or lightning might act as a dampener on the air leylines as another element would be acting upon the air. The same force would still be applied at the concentrated points whether it was a still day or a gale but the result would be different depending on what went in to begin with.
nick012000 07-02-03, 07:21 AM	a question: would air magic get more powerful towards the edges of the convection currents?
WizO_Iyala 07-02-03, 07:52 PM	Wellm from the way I'm thinking, no. The currents themselveswould be less important than the forces causing the currents. Air magic might be particularly strong at the entrances to valley for example, where the wind patterns change, even though the strongest force might be in the center of the valley. A point of perfect calm among wind currents might be a stronger point of air magic as it is the force acting on the air, even though it is a calming force. This is probably only making sense to me :( It also makes me think that the shape/layout of the leylines need not necessarily be consistant over the elements. Its something I think we'd always assumed, that whatever layout we went with it'd be the same for all five but after this I think they might be better done with small differences. Air Magic - the points would be fairly isolated, taking the forms of patterns in the land. The leylines between then would be intermitant and unpredictable Shadow Magic - these leylines would take the form of an ever splitting network of lines, imagine glass broken by a small hit to the centre of a sheet, the patterns radiating out would be like shadow leylines, fairly uneven and decreasing in strength as they went outward. The lines between points of strength would be fairly consistant but often weak. Fire Magic - we've not done much work on fire magic but what I'm picturing is power drawn from heat, perhapst he heat of lava beneath the ground. I imagine the fire leylines as the only ones that would move on anything like the scale of a human lifetime. Though erratic they would tend to be the most regimented.For fire magic it would probably fit to have the shortest line between two points with no messig around. Earth Magic - lines around these points fo power would spread out like the roots of a tree. Though the local area would ba filled with earth magic, only a few of the strongest "root" lines would reach out beyone to become the interconnecting leylines. Water Magic - this is a slightly dodgy one but points of power could take the form of lakes, whether they be over-land or underground concentrations of water in a desert. Leylines would probably follow the paths of existing or past streams. If we take the theme of leylines as being the connection between the magic and the land, water leylines might follow the paths of dried up river beds quite easily. - This causes two problems: 1) not all rivers/streams would be leylines, otherwise they're going to be everywhere and 2) the sea. I think the sea can be explained away as being too large. leylines and water points of power are about the influence of water upon the land. The sea is accepted in its own right whereas the lakes are almost intruding on the land. Wow. That was a long ramble. Did any of it make sense?
nick012000 07-03-03, 06:35 AM	maybe not the sea itself, but what about the currents like El Nino in the sea?
WizO_Iyala 07-03-03, 05:24 PM	That might indeed work for the sea version of a water leyline but the problem is not where the power is located in the sea by why it isn't located everywhere else. I think water magic may be one of the harder ones to sort out, it's just too universal an element. Earth Magic works fine under the water, large areas of seaweed growth representing fertile, living ground could generate that for example. Fire Magic would also have no real problems if we considered it the magic sourced by the fire of the land. We'd be looking at thermal vents and warm currents representing fire leylines underwater. Shadow applies everywhere with no trouble. Which leaves air - that could be tricky. The more I think about leylines, the more it feels like the magic is coming from contrasts. Earth magic may come from verdant growth among otherwise desolate landscape. Air magic can be the force of winds in a still sky. Shadow magic is the force of change upon the lenad. Water magic is the liquid upon the solid land or currents beneath the still waves. Fire magic may be the vibrant heat among cold rock. Does this make sense to anyone else?
Leaves 07-04-03, 01:24 AM	In addition to volcanoes, we can say the hot sulfuric sea vents in the depths of the oceans are also sources of fire energy. And I would say that a forest fire or grass fire would cause a brief, intense flare-up of fire energy. You could say the same for floods and water energy. Waterfalls are probably good places for water energy sources, too: the water goes from sedate stream, to tumultuous downpour, to deep, still pool. Earth magic, I don't know. I'm still thinking of Earth like D&D: rocks and stones, not like M:tG plant growth. But I'm working on it. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafchange.txt
nick012000 07-04-03, 02:12 AM	earth ley-lines would seem to be with the mountain ranges, subduction trenches, and other similar geological features.
WizO_Iyala 07-04-03, 03:31 AM	Yeah, I'd prefer earth to not be the MTG view of plant growth because earth then ends up too exclusively green. The problem is that it's the same issue as Air, earth is everywhere, if it was just the rocks it'd mean that the underdark could never be anything except saturated by earth magic. Earth magic needs to be based on something other than just the presence of physical land, I've been trying to think of it as fertile land rather than plant growth because it would then be the potential for life that is generating the power - it's not necessarily the same as plant growth as an open field would be a great source of earth magic despite having nothing growing in it. I do like the idea of maybe mountains but the magic needs to be available everywhere, as much in a wide open desert as in hills. Physical features might be a good way to go, what would supply earth energy underwater, in a desert, an open plain and other non-mountainous areas? Forest fires would be more the result of fire magic rather than a source, leylines are the magical characteristics of the land itself so fire might be a little transitory. It'd probably be a bit of a boost for a fire mage but it's a seperate influence to the leylines. The sufuric vents and waterfalls seem to be spot on though to me :)
Dream Spinner 07-04-03, 02:57 PM	I have some questions and one idea/theory: [list=1] How will D&D make it so that leylines are the source of magicks? How will D&D make it so that leylines are of different elements and different leylines will power different elemental spells? How will non-elemental spells (like summoning or mind control) get their magick? If it's from the elemental ley lines, what decides what element are each type of spell (summoning would be what element)? Would one spell of "average power" use up about 1% of a leyline's power? Is it possible for a ley line to be completely drained of its power? For example, a legion of mages throwing fireballs at an invading god while other mages protect the footsoldiers with magick fire shields. [/list=1] My idea/theory: A mage sipons off elemental power from a leyline to cast a spell and that energy would be channeled through his or her body and released as the actual spell. I believe that D&D mages are supposed to feel a euphoric sensation when casting a spell and in our world, that sensation would be the feeling of power as the energy surges through the mage's veins. This feeling would be extremely pleasurable and mages could grow addicted to it. I believe this is already true for D&D (though may be not in the playing of it, stories probably have already used this idea). My idea is that since the energy passing through the mage is pure elemental power, if a mage specializes in a certain element and casts spells of that element over and over, he or she may not only grow addicted, but that energy starts to surge through that mage more easily. This results in an even greater sensation and more powerful spells. I'm thinking that eventually, the constant channeling of that element through the person will either make her become sort of a hole in the leyline pipe and the magick will surge through her, eventually killing her and destroying the surrounding area accordingly to the element, or, in an ultra-extreme case, the person doesn't become a hole in the pipe, but part of the pipe. She becomes an avatar, an elemental, an incarnation, but whatever you call it, she becomes a walking entity of energy. Her features warp according to the energy and, as an unnatural being, incapable of controlling the absolute power, she becomes a destructive force. The fire mage becomes the walking inferno whose glance is immolation and her steps the striking of a fiery meteor. The water mage becomes a walking tidal wave whose breath is at absolute zero and her touch is liquification. And so on. The only way to stop one is divine intervention, another uber-mage pretty much sacrifices himself to stop her, or someone breaks through the destructive impulses to revive the person within. The last is the most difficult, for obvious reasons, but it is also the only way to stop her without killing her. What do you think?
WizO_Iyala 07-04-03, 05:57 PM	Interesting thoughts, dream spinner :) It has some similarities to the mirari-induced stuff during onslaught in some ways but something worth thinking about :) The other stuff I can't comment on technicaly but I remember some ideas from the past threads. The general concept would be thaat a map of an area would come complete with leylines mapped out on it. When a wizard found himself near a leyline, his ability to cast magic is imporved. Some of the ideas brought up would be the possibilites of extra spells near areas of power or slightly increased effects to the spells, possibly even spells available near such points that wouldn't be accessible in other areas. Now I can't say this strongly enough: I know I don't understand D&D but would it be possible for each player to chose an elemental alignment when they began the game? Players would get improved abilities near leylines of their elements, they might heal faster or fight with more strength, be more clever, cast stronger spells, move more quickly or just find things easier in general. I do not think leylines would be of limited power, by the way, at east not to any noticable degree, leylines are supposed to represent the energy of the land. Plus the chances are the magic would drain in from somewhere else. There would always be the chance of a shadow magic backlash-type effect though in the case of a strong drain on the energy of the land.
Bandido 07-04-03, 08:05 PM	Originally posted by Dream Spinner I have some questions and one idea/theory: [list=1] How will D&D make it so that leylines are the source of magicks? How will D&D make it so that leylines are of different elements and different leylines will power different elemental spells? How will non-elemental spells (like summoning or mind control) get their magick? If it's from the elemental ley lines, what decides what element are each type of spell (summoning would be what element)? [/list=1] Right, well, this is how I was going to handle this (feel free to comment, disagree, or suggest an alternative): 1. I was going to create an elementalist class, which used magic that was strictly elemental in nature. In D&D terms, this would be a Shugenja with a slightly rejigged spell list. Alternatively, we could give all arcane casters a bonus Elemental Substitution feat, which allows them to exchange one spell's element for another, and force them to use it on all relevant spells. Druids would draw energy from all elements (because all elements are used in nature, and because that's how the druid's spell list is in D&D already ;)). 2. Leylines are of different elements because the DM says so - this is more a campaign setting detail than anything else. If you mean 'what effect will the ley lines have on spellcasters who share their element', I was thinking that their spells would be harder to resist (higher DCs, in D&D terms) and/or it would be easier for them to affect things which are resistant to magic (higher effective caster level, in D&D terms). 3. Hmmmm.... Although it would be possible to go through and label every spell by element, I don't think it's practical. These in-between areas can be of 'all elements and therefore of none.' Alternatively, they could be Shadow. 4. If we did have to go through and give an element to each spell (*shudder*), I think summoning would be air, as it teleports things in, which is travel magic. Your concept idea; it's nice, but slightly over-the-top. I would save that fate for people who meddle in major artifacts, or try and drain whole continents of their elemental power, that kind of thing. Trying to stop someone from doing this would be a great campaign, as would trying to stop someone after they'd done it! People getting an ecstatic feeling when using magic and being killed if they draw too much is very Wheel of Time, and works as an out-of-character detail, but is extremely irritating to work in as a mechanic in D&D. It would make a nice basis for a counterspell in Magic though. However, the becoming an element is very nice, and there is a D&D Prestige Class which does exactly this, so that would probably be very common in this world.
Dream Spinner 07-05-03, 12:59 AM	Yeah, I guess going through every D&D spell and labeling it to an element is worthy of a <shudder> (that, plus the AC is blowing right onto my face). About stopping somebody from achieving this, I don't think anybody would ever want that to happen to them, except fire drow may be. They have no control over themselves as this avatar person and are pretty much unconcious in their mind, the element's destructive force taking control completely. Plus, the changing is pretty much involuntary and could jump up on you at anytime you're casting a humongo-spell. Also, yeah, I wasn't thinking about this as an aspect for D&D, just an idea. For stories (I actually already have one in mind, kinda cheesy, but sad ending so far) or for M:tG card possibilities.
WizO_Iyala 07-05-03, 08:03 PM	It'd certainly make for a good story. I can imagine wizards telling their apprentices to be careful with their magic or they might go too far, sort of like an urban myth that would occasionaly come true. From what I understand of your explanation, Bandido, that seems to fit really well with leylines :) I also don't think we need to (or could) align all spells to elements but the easy ones would be good :) Something to conisder is what would occur where leylines cross. I think it would bring on interesting combined effects but also it might be a little unnerving for anyone using just one of the two elements.
Dream Spinner 07-05-03, 10:00 PM	Where two leylines cross, I imagine either the magicks meld together to form a dual-element (energy capable of being used for 2 types of elements); pile onto each other, not melding, making mages capable of extracting energy purely of one element, but the area will be very magically powerful/intense; or the elements fuse together into another element (fire and water changing into a small patch of shadow, wind and earth fusing to create a small patch of fire, etc.).
nick012000 07-08-03, 09:53 PM	yay! para- and quasi- elements!
Dream Spinner 07-09-03, 12:53 AM	What, nick? And despite my not being sure of what you said, I feel insulted. :( (Finally some response!)
nick012000 07-09-03, 02:09 AM	para-elementals, and in ADnD the para-elemental planes, in DnD, are elementals and elemental planes where the primary elements got mixed. quasi-elements are where the elemental planes and the energy planes got mixed.
Dream Spinner 07-09-03, 02:45 AM	Okay, is that a good thing?
WizO_Iyala 07-09-03, 03:28 AM	I dislike the idea of elements fusing to make another because, more than anythng, it does not make thematic sense. When you mix earth and wind you do not get fire so it does nto seem to fit that it would make fire magic. I also do not think it would be sensible to have places of significant power where leylines cross because this is going to be something that happens fairly frequently in some places, if we make them sources of large amounts of power we'll not only have a very significant amoung of power around but it'll take away from the importance of the major points of power. Earth Magic I think we need to clarify this a bit as it's probably the least defined of the elements right now. We need to sort out what the source of earth magic is oing to be. It cannot simply be the land as the elemental magics represent the energies of the land plus it'll be everywhere and earth mages are just going to rule the world. We need alternatives. One option is to go down the road of Magic's green, relying on forests and plant growth, I'd like to stay away from that if possible because earth magic will suddenly become very dull if it's strictly aligned to an MTG colour. We've had the suggestion of mountains and physical features however that will work in some areas but probably not at all in others. Same with the idea of fertile ground, deserts are going to be no-go areas for earth mages. We could have some form of element (in the chemical sense) within the ground that chanels and enhances the energy of the land around it. I'd be loathed to turn earth energy into metal energy however what I'm imagining is seams of crystals or metals within the ground which would have absolutly no power on their own however they would act as contuits for energy with enhancing properties. Earth leylines would be powered by the raw energy of the land which would be concentrated by the crystal seams. It would probably manifest itself in many places as plant growth - after all I think that is what land is there for and fertile growth is probably what land wants if land wants anything - but a forest would not necessarily be a stong point of earth magic and these leylines would be as strong in the desert as under the sea as in the mountains. It also gives us some neat crystals to stick into magical devices if we want to :) Any thoughts?
Dream Spinner 07-09-03, 04:04 AM	Well, first off, my reasoning was that earth (as in wood) is fuel and air is oxygen, but then I stopped there because I couldn't think of anything else that would work. :blush: Anyway, Iyala (good to "see" you again), so Earth leylines will follow where crystals grow? Any kind or a certain kind you've described but I can't pick up on it? My question: What's wrong with deserts being never visited by earth mages if they want to maintain their power? On a sorta-non-leyline note, I'm thinking that earth mages would have the most stable of magicks. That means that their magic would come steadily and sure from earth leylines and that it's easily controlled (we won't see nearly as many rampaging earth avatars as we'll see fire or water). It isn't the flashiest nor does it have the biggest effects, but it is solid. Again, this is probably only for like stories or even, just may be, M:tG cards. I'm not much help in the D&D-wise. I'll return to my orc gods now.
Bandido 07-09-03, 07:21 AM	For earth energy, I was just thinking that any area that has 'rich earth' would be the source for earth energy. This could be an area with very fertile soil, or an area rich in mineral deposits (metal and gems, etc). Perhaps certain minerals could be associated with ley lines, so where you would find limestone normally, you will instead find marble near a ley line. This would give earth mages a role as the detectors of metals, and so on. It also has the potential for 'outbreaks' of shadow magic if an area is mined out quickly (perhaps by the combined efforts of dwarves and ravenous Demortali ;)). Places that would be poor in earth energy would be deserts (as the soil is poor, and there are rarely significant mineral deposits in deserts {although you can sometimes find diamonds there}). I'm not sure if I like just one type of crystal being associated with earth energy - on the one hand it's too like D&D psionics, and it seems a little over-the-top, but on the other hand, I can imagine earth energy crystallising out of thin air into perfect gems. It seemed to me, Iyala, that you were saying they'd be very common around ley lines, huge seams of them that could be mined. If they were rarer, then I like it. :)
Dream Spinner 07-09-03, 02:16 PM	I'd prefer the rich land leylines. About the wind leylines, if they're changing and ever moving from place to place, which I believe they are, how do we map them so that D&D air mages get the bonus/loss of power?
Leaves 07-09-03, 04:11 PM	I don't think the lack of fertile land in deserts should be any hindrence to making that the source of earth magic. As far as I understand it, there are basically two kinds of desert; desert caused by natural conditions, and desert created by human activities. The desert in the American Southwest is caused by very low rainfall, but when it does rain, the desert explodes with flowers and vegetation. I don't think the soil is especially un-fertile. On the other hand, the desert in the Middle East and the Saharah was created by thousands of years of over-grazing, over-irrigating, and just plain mistreatment. I think if that sort of thing happens on our world, it would be only natural for the ley-lines to be drained. On another note, relating to elemental magic in general, I was just remembering something from a book I read. If anyone else has read Dragonsbane by Barbara Hambly, there is mention in there the effects different materials have on scrying (seeing things from afar by use of magic). It went something like, scrying in earth (crystal) is most reliable and easy to do, but can only show what is happening right now. Scrying in water is also reliable, and can show you the past. Scrying in fire is chaotic and unreliable (mages cannot choose when it happens) but it can show the future. And scrying in air... ack, I can't remember! http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafblush.txt That may not be exactly right, but it was something to that effect. I'm going to try to find the quote. I hope it wasn't in a sequel - I only have the first book. I was just mentioning it to point out that for giving D&D spells different elemental flavor, we could just change the material componenets and slightly alter the effects. I think the easiest way to apply the elemental flavor would be a series of elemental metamagic feats: Earth magic [metamagic feat] Earth magic is slow, but steady. All numerical effect are halved, but duration is doubled. Water magic [metamagic feat] Water can be ice-cold or steam-hot, can pound like a tsuanami or wear away like the waves on a shore. Substitute any energy type (only one type at a time!): [cold], [fire], [sonic], [acid]... Air magic [metamagic feat] Air is omnipresent. Eschew material components. Fire magic [metamagic feat] Fire is dangerous to manipulate. Do up to 50% more damage to your target, but also deal that damage to yourself. Or something like that. Wow, I'm being verbose. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafcool.txt
WizO_Iyala 07-09-03, 06:47 PM	Okay, the crystal thing just came from the fact that the fertile earth thing didn't get much feedback so I assumed people hated it :) plus my mind was rambling this morning in a futile effort to do something interesting rather than work ;) If we go with the idea of rich earth it seems to tie with a lot of issues :) The reason I use the desert as an example a lot is that I once wrote a story in the desert and discovered the sort of limitations it puts on things but so long as the theory works so that earth magic is just powered down rather than inaccesible in such an area it seems fine to me :) Leaves : I'm trying my best not to be dense but could you or someone else give me a quick explanation of feats, I keep seeing the word in the handbook but I'm not up to that chapter yet and I very much want to understand your post :) Dream Spinner: Air leylines do not shift in location, they pulse in power, the locations of the paths stay the same but they erraticly change in magnitude which would probably be done at the whim of the DM. Barring major changed to the landscape, I could imagine air leylines going unchanged for centuries and a collapsing mountains would be more likely to bring shadow to the area than create a shifting air leyline. I plan to put what I'm picturing for mapping leylines into an easily explainable form but first of all I need a tin of watercolours and five sheets of acetate ;)
nick012000 07-09-03, 09:23 PM	a feat is an ability that you get and can choose. every character gets one at 1st level, as well as 1 every level divisable by 3. some classes or races get bonus feats.
Dream Spinner 07-09-03, 09:44 PM	Leaves: I like the feats, though I don't get it 100%. On the seeing, something of that liking was also used in I Am Morgan Le Fay, an awesome book (Morgan is still evil, but she it is completely justified and it's just wonderful). When you see things through water, it shows soothing visions, kind ones. Like your love across the sea safe and healthy. Something like that. But if you looked through metal (like bronze mirrors), it showed you cold truth, the stuff water doesn't want you to see, like your love in pain fighting in the war. Iyala: Yay! I now get leylines 99%. The other 1% is pretty much exactly where the leylines are and the exact numbers on how they affect spells, detail stuff we don't need right now.
Leaves 07-10-03, 12:14 AM	Feats are one of the ways you customize your character. Metamagic feats are feats that are only useful for spell-casters. A caster can use them to change the characteristics of a spell. There are basically two categories: Some change the components of the spell: normally, to cast a spell, the character needs to wave their arms around, say something, and have a bit of some specific stuff, like newts eyeballs and whatnot. If the character is tied up, gagged, or has no access to materials, they cannot cast the spell, unless they have the proper metamagic feat. Still spell lets you cast a spell when tied up, silent spell lets you cast without talking, and eschew material components lets you cast without material components (and I really shouldn't have brought it up, because it's not in the core rulebooks, it's in a suppliment somewhere). Other metamagic feats make the spell more powerful. These include empower, enlarge, extend, and maximize spell. I'd also put Quicken spell in this list: it makes it possible to cast a spell very quickly.
Bandido 07-10-03, 07:52 AM	Originally posted by Leaves I don't think the lack of fertile land in deserts should be any hindrence to making that the source of earth magic. As far as I understand it, there are basically two kinds of desert; desert caused by natural conditions, and desert created by human activities. The desert in the American Southwest is caused by very low rainfall, but when it does rain, the desert explodes with flowers and vegetation. I don't think the soil is especially un-fertile. Okay! :) So, if the desert is actually barren ground, then it will devoid of earth magic. That sounds good. :) Originally posed by Leaves: I think the easiest way to apply the elemental flavor would be a series of elemental metamagic feats: Earth magic [metamagic feat] Earth magic is slow, but steady. All numerical effect are halved, but duration is doubled. Water magic [metamagic feat] Water can be ice-cold or steam-hot, can pound like a tsuanami or wear away like the waves on a shore. Substitute any energy type (only one type at a time!): [cold], [fire], [sonic], [acid]... Air magic [metamagic feat] Air is omnipresent. Eschew material components. Fire magic [metamagic feat] Fire is dangerous to manipulate. Do up to 50% more damage to your target, but also deal that damage to yourself. Okay, these feats..... Earth magic - that seems okay, I suppose. Technically speaking, duration is a numerical effect, but that's just pedantry. I would restrict this feat from being used on anything that didn't have other numerical variables. I can't see that many spells using it, though. Water magic - Aagh! Broken! What sorcerer wouldn't take this feat? Air Magic - this is just Eschew Materials renamed. Balanced. Fire magic - I can't see anyone uing this. Spellcasters almost never have hit points to spare. At high levels, this will just leave the spellcaster splattered all over the wall. Not that I can think of anything better....:(
nick012000 07-10-03, 08:15 AM	i cast meteor swarm, with the fire feat enhancing it. how much damage do i take?
Bandido 07-10-03, 08:22 AM	I believe that would be half of 24d6 - you take the extra 50% damage that you deal.
Dream Spinner 07-10-03, 02:38 PM	I have a question: So, spell-casting is different for every class? Wizards have so-and-so many spells each day and sorcerers what? Clerics? Bards? Is there like a really long list of spells for wizards to choose from? Do wizards and sorcerers have different types of spells?
Leaves 07-10-03, 03:52 PM	The whole last half of the Player's Handbook is taken up by spells. I don't know exactly how many there are, but it's about 4 to 6 on a page, and 100 pages. Each spell-casting class has a different list of spells available to them, but there is a lot of overlap. Wizards and Sorcerors have the same spells available to them, but different ways of learning them. Bandido: I never claimed they were balanced http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafwink.txt About the Fire feat: it's up to 50%. So you could cast meteor swarm, choose to deal 30d6 damage, dealing 6d6 to yourself. Or 25d6, dealing only 1d6 to yourself. The mechanic is really poorly written, sorry http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafblush.txt It sounds more like a Magic mechanic than D&D. For the Earth feat, I was considering making it so that spells of instantaneous duration last 2 rounds. So an earth-enhanced fireball would be smaller and deal less damage, but lingers in the same location for a full 12 seconds. As for the Water feat: I was assuming you would cast a water-enhanced spell as a higher level spell. Do you think we can make it high enough to balance? +3, maybe? So a water enhanced Fireball would be 6th level, but you get to choose what type of energy it is when you cast it.
Bandido 07-10-03, 04:02 PM	Dream Spinner - *takes deep breath* Okay, there are two different types of spellcasters in D&D - spontaneous casters, and....the other type (which use Vancian magic, so let's call them Vancian spellcasters). Sorcerers and bards are spontaneous casters, and they know a certain number of spells of each level, and have a certain number of spell slots of each level. They can cast any spell they know with a spell slot of the appropriate level. For example, a level 1 sorcerer knows two L1 spells - let's say they're Magic Missile and Sleep, and has 4 1st-level spell slots. That means he can cast four Magic Missiles per day, or three Magic Missiles and a Sleep, or four Sleeps, or any other combination. Vancian casters (such as the cleric, druid, wizard, paladin, and ranger), have a certain number of spell slots of each level. At the beginning of each day, they can memorise a spell of a particular level with a spell slot of the same level. When he casts the spell, it is wiped from his memory until he rests, and re-memorises his spells. For example, a 2nd-level wizard can cast two 1st-level spells, and with these can memorise any two 1st level spells in his spell book, or even the same spell twice, but as soon as he casts a spell, he cannot cast it again until the next day. Vancian casters usually have access to all the spells of a particular level that they can know, but the wizard has to find spell scrolls and scribe them into his spellbook to learn spells. Sorcerers and wizards cast from the same list. However, a sorcerer will almost always have a smaller number of spells known than a wizard has in his spellbook.
Bandido 07-10-03, 04:07 PM	Originally posted by Leaves For the Earth feat, I was considering making it so that spells of instantaneous duration last 2 rounds. So an earth-enhanced fireball would be smaller and deal less damage, but lingers in the same location for a full 12 seconds. As for the Water feat: I was assuming you would cast a water-enhanced spell as a higher level spell. Do you think we can make it high enough to balance? +3, maybe? So a water enhanced Fireball would be 6th level, but you get to choose what type of energy it is when you cast it. Earth - hmmm, interesting. It would need exploring, as it could be very open to abuse. Water - Well, the feat as presented is effectively all 5 energy substitution feats rolled up into 1, and they're all +0. I'd say either make it +2, or +1 with a huge load of prerequisites.
nick012000 07-10-03, 10:44 PM	incantatrix + earth enhanced time stop + haste + Quicker than the Eye... 2d4+2 rounds duration, that would be an average of 21 spell you could get off before the could do anyhing.
Bandido 07-11-03, 08:40 AM	How about abuses that don't just make known holes in the system worse? No one allows Time Stop/Haste silliness anyway, so no one is going to allow anything that makes it worse. What's really important is whether it breaks what is currently balanced.
Dream Spinner 07-11-03, 01:46 PM	Okay...I'm gonna have to read that several times more to get it. :confused::twitch:
WizO_Iyala 07-11-03, 05:27 PM	I suspect it'll take more than reading, Dream Spinner, we're going to need some major D&D experience before we can begin to understand :)
Bandido 07-12-03, 11:18 AM	Nah, it's not that difficult. Playing it once would be good enough. I'll try it in Magic-ese. Imagine sorcerers and wizards are Magic players, but play variants with different rules.... A sorcerer has all the spells he knows in his hand, and he can play any spell in his hand as long as he has the mana. He has no library, and when he plays a spell, it returns to his hand, allowing him to play a spell over and over again if needed. A wizard has a huge library with lots of different cards in it. Each day, he takes the cards he wants out of his library and puts them into his hand, and he can take multiple copies of a spell if he wishes. He pays the mana for his spells at this time. When he casts a spell, it goes into the graveyard, so he can't play it again, although he can still play any additional copies of it that are still in his hand. In the morning, he shuffles his graveyard back into his library, and chooses again. I hope that hasn't just served to confuse you. :blush:
Dream Spinner 07-12-03, 11:57 AM	I think I get it. A sorcerer has X lvl 1, Y lvl 2, and so on spells she can cast in a day, but she has limited number of spells she can cast for each level. If she casts a spell, she can recast it, but only if she has another lvl X spell slot left. A wizard has X lvl 1, Y lvl 2, and so on spells she can cast in a day as well, but she doesn't have the restriction on spells like a sorcerer. She can cast any of the spells of lvl X. But, in exchange for the "freedom", she has to choose the spells she will be able to cast that day at the beginning of the day, which is taken in the form of an hour's studying. Once she casts a spell, the spell is burned from her mind, so she can't cast it again that day, unless she had memorized it more than once earlier that day. Right?
Leaves 07-12-03, 03:43 PM	Originally posted by nick012000 incantatrix + earth enhanced time stop + haste + Quicker than the Eye... 2d4+2 rounds duration, that would be an average of 21 spell you could get off before the could do anyhing. The earth enhancement only works if the effect of the spell can be reduced somehow. If it works at all, I would rule it works like this: You are time stopped for 1d4+1 rounds in the round you cast time stop, but during the time stop you are Slowed like the spell (you can only take 1d4 +1 partial actions). Time starts again, everybody gets an action, the time stop starts again for you, and you get 1d4+1 partial actions once again. Casting Haste would only cancel out the effects of the slowness, assuming that Haste during time stop is allowed by the DM (I would rule that since the slowness is an effect of the 9th level earth enhanced time stop, it can only be countered by a 9th level heightenedhaste. You do get your full round of action in addition to the effects of the time stop in the second round, but you paid for that time earlier by casting haste, so I think it's a fair exchange). I have heard of the incantatrix, but i don't have whatever book it's in, so I can't comment on that. I have not heard of "Quicker than the Eye". Iyala, Dream Spinner, yes, understanding all of what Nick# is talking about would take a lot of experience in D&D. More than I have, in fact ;)
Bandido 07-12-03, 04:43 PM	Dream Spinner: Yep, you've got it! :D Leaves: I'm still trying to work out exactly what Quicker than the Eye is doing in there...is the wizard making sneak attacks? :confused:
nick012000 07-12-03, 06:59 PM	incantatrix is in Magic of Fearun. It is also in the Magic of Faerun excerpt on the website. Quicker than the Eye is a feat from Song and Silence that uses a move equivalent action to take a bluff check (DC 15). if it suceeds, you make a partial action, and enemies don't have their Dex bonus against it.
Dream Spinner 07-12-03, 10:43 PM	So, all spellcasters fall under either categories? Is it possible for us to come up with another type of spellcasting? Realistically, though. I know, we could, but can we create one that actually works and is balanced and all that? And another thing, Bandido, I think I remember you saying you were working on a class that chooses an element like an alignment and casts spells according to that element? Is that true? An elementist I think you called it.
nick012000 07-13-03, 12:17 AM	well, there's psionics. that works differently again. it's in the SRD, but i can't be bothered reading it.
Bandido 07-13-03, 07:44 AM	Nickharn012000(.01 optional): Your trick doesn't work, as the 1d4+1 rounds in Time Stop isn't a duration, according to The Sage. If you want to increase the length of a Time Stop, you have to Empower it. Using the Earth feat as written would halve its length. And why all the name changes? Originally posted by Dream Spinner So, all spellcasters fall under either categories? Is it possible for us to come up with another type of spellcasting? Realistically, though. I know, we could, but can we create one that actually works and is balanced and all that? And another thing, Bandido, I think I remember you saying you were working on a class that chooses an element like an alignment and casts spells according to that element? Is that true? An elementist I think you called it. All spellcasters currently in D&D fall into one of those two categories. Psionics uses a variant of spontaneous magic, where each power has a point cost, and you have points. It's not well-balanced, IMO. We could create another system of magic if you could think of another way that works with the spell level system of D&D - I can't. 'Working on' the elementalist is somewhat of an exaggeration, when all I'm doing is taking an already-existing class (the Shugenja) and changing the spell list and special abilities around a bit.
nick012000 07-13-03, 08:00 AM	off-topic: well, i started off as kharn012000. then, my account stopped working, so i created a new one. kharn012000.1 screen name, nick012000 login name. then the forum changed and i had to re-register, yet again, because my account seemed to have been deleted.
Dream Spinner 07-13-03, 08:54 PM	What's a Shugenja? With the new spellcasting system, I'll think about a base for one, but I don't think I will be able to come up with anything that'll work well.
Dream Spinner 07-13-03, 09:10 PM	OT: So, AC (Armour Class) represents how well you can avoid damage completely? And this website doesn't tell me how you determine how much HP you have. I know it has something to do with Constitution (may be I haven't gotten to that point yet), but could you tell me? And negative levels: How can one get one? Why is it called "turn undead"? These questions are simply ones that come up while reading this website. Thanx beforehand. EDIT: Nevermind. Found out about Hit Dice.
nick012000 07-14-03, 12:32 AM	a shujenja is a class in the supplement Oreintal Adventures. AC is the number the emenies need to roll to hit you. so, yes. turn undead: because if you sucseed, the turn and run away! (been like that since 1st ed...) you get negative levels by being hit by certain undead.
Dream Spinner 07-14-03, 01:13 AM	Thanx Nick. With the "turning undead", okay. That makes sense in a very obvious way. They weren't feeling very creative when they came up with that, were they?
Dream Spinner 07-14-03, 01:57 PM	Okay, I saw the Hit Dice, but I still don't get it. So, whenever you go up a level, you roll the Hit Dice and add that much (for example, for Barbarian, d12) to your HP. Fine, but what does Constitution have anything to do with that? Is it in determining the original starting HP? If so, how do you do that? And what is the average HP for a regular human? Like, if you just picked someone walking around in a quiet village, what would be her HP. This is because in many games, the HP ratio to a normal person, if you know what I mean, is different. And I'm thinking about a magic system similar to M:tG's where someone siphons energy from leylines to cast spells (this would be an elemental spellcaster thing) and siphoning this energy deals subdual damage to the spellcaster. (I'm learning!) I'm still working on the details. Of course, the stuff are gonna be off cuz I've never played D&D, but I'm relying on the rest of you to fix it when some miracle happens and I finish.
Bandido 07-14-03, 03:34 PM	This is getting massively off-topic.... But anyway, you add your constitution modifier to your hit points at each level. If you're third level, and your Constitution modifier is +1, you have 3 extra hit points.
Dream Spinner 07-14-03, 08:43 PM	Well it's not like there's much of anything else going on! Being an insomniac (see the last part of my sig), I was forced to wander around these boards for hours, looking at nothing. :love: That is, until I found Fox Lee's drawing of Curien :love: , which I absolutely love! :love: It's in the Character Art-something thread. The shorter one, not the Requests. :love: I also started posting parts of my story with Mirlede, a weather witch. It's a short-ish story. I'm not done with it (hardly), but I have the first 2 parts. If you really want to keep it on topic, she goes wacko from rage/grief and becomes an storm avatar person, like I described earlier. Elemental magic, see?
WizO_Iyala 07-14-03, 08:48 PM	... and welcome to D&D for beginners :D The scary thing is tht I'm beginning to know small amounts of this stuff :) I'm up to the chapter on skills :D And Dream Spinner, step away from the smilie ;) Anyway.. Earth Magic We've got that it's all about fertile land from a leyline point of view but what are its characteristics? To me an earth mage is dependable, sometimes seen as boring by those that d not understand their form of slow, dedicated passion towards their element. Earth magic can take in everyone from the druid in the forest to the explorer obsessed with mountains and hte beuty of the land he sees from the top. In the eyes of an earth mage their magic s the purest form. They do not hold other elements in contempt so much as see them as a little deluded, they pity other mages for following what they see as lesser forms of magic. An earth mage is quite often a reserved, cautious person. They think in terms of centiries more easily than tomorrow and they plan for lifetimes and generations beyond them. For this reason family ties and lineage tend to be important to an earth mage, they care deeply where they are from in the world, both in terms of their family and their location. Earth mages are not natural adventurers, many perfer to dedicate themselves to understandingtheir particular location however othres long for nothing more than to see as much of the world as possible and the different forms that land can take. If an earth mage faces a challenge in their life or an upheaval they are more likely to travel in response. They do not adapt well to change and have a strong suspicion of Shadow magic.
Dream Spinner 07-14-03, 10:20 PM	I can't! It's so wonderful! :love: I think we only have the Earth and Air Magic official, bold-coloured thing up, so here, my fav element <copies Iyala's form>: Water Magic Water magic is the very power of contradictions and irony. What else is always there, yet you can't grasp it? What else is completely calm one second, but apocalyptic the next? Water mages are probably the only folk who can feel completely at ease with a shadow mage. Water mages are moody people. They're the ones that are in the middle of a party, singing, dancing one moment, and the bearers of the world's agony the next. Tears flow freely for them, as do harsh words. Although water mages may seem aloof and cold at first, within, they have a deeply caring heart. Water mages see all other magicks as parts of their own. Fire magic is their own passionate side. Air magic is there own artistic and flighty side. Earth magic is their calm, steady side. And shadow magic is their volatile, moody side. Because of this, water mages may be the best at adapting other elements to their purpose. For example, an icebolt spell instead of a firebolt. This is also shown in its close connection to weather magic, which is comprised of air and fire magic as well. Water magic is best used for passive abilities, but it can be switched to an aggressive mode easily. Water magic is the most common element to be connected to prophetic powers, for it holds prophecies within its tranquil waters and stormy skies. Water is also connected to the night's celestial bodies. The moon is a changing entity in the sky, as the sea is on the ground. Moon and star light are best caught at their acme of beauty on waters. Lastly, water is connected to time because of the regular tides and its connection to the moon, the basis for the months. Water magic is perhaps the best element for healing with non-divine magicks, as in with a cleric. Water is a natural healer, it washes away blood and cleans wounds. It is the giver of life. But, water magic can also be used to destroy. Encasing enemies in columns of water to slowly drown, crashing tidal waves, endless rains. Water is perhaps also connected to prophecies because the gods' anger is easily seen through it. Both droughts and floods are common signs of divine disapproval. The worse is as blood is the lifestream of people, water is the life stream of the world, and the gods may decide to change the latter into the former. Not only is blood worthless for drinking or watering, effective as a drought, it is horrorfying to look upon a river of blood. There, I think I talked enough.
Dream Spinner 07-15-03, 02:53 AM	Well, I'm here at 3 in the morning. Nothing to do. Wishing there was some thread where we can just rant. I'll probably have to contribute something useful here. So, I'm thinking about a class of elemental mage where you have to choose one element, like an alignment. Then, like the other spellcasters, you have X lvl 1 spell slots, Y lvl 2 spells slots, etc. per day. Then, you can cast any spell you'd like, but each spell you cast deals XdX subdual (or whatever the fake, stress damage is called) damage to you beforehand. So, if you stress yourself out (get subdual damage totaling up to your total HP or more), the spell doesn't work at all. This subdual damage cannot be "healed" away. It has to be regenerated away from rest. I'm also thinking about having a cooldown period where if you cast another spell before the time period is over, the subdual damage you get is increased. What do you think? Is the free to cast any spell of that element too open? Or is it still too weak? If so, is it because there wouldn't be enough spells of that one element to do this. Or is it because the subdual damage is too much for a spellcaster to handle? OT: I was doing random searches through Amazon and discovered my semi-close friend's mother is a published author! One of her books had an average rating of 5 stars! But then, that book was rated by mothers of beginning readers and people in like 3rd grade or something like that. I don't think they'd be as critical as, well, critics would be. Still, that's cool! I must meet her! I must leech off all of her talent! You didn't here that.
nick012000 07-15-03, 03:14 AM	it's too weak. a level 1 caster would knock themselves out after 4 spells.
Dream Spinner 07-15-03, 03:21 AM	That's what I thought. Maybe if they get a boost in their elemental spells? I don't know. Elemental mages have trained themselves in channeling spells, so they have increased CON and the damage they recieve decreases every 3 levels or so?
WizO_Iyala 07-20-03, 08:12 PM	This is roughly what I had in my mind for a symbolic representation of a leyline map. It is purely symbolic, there wouldn't be literal leylines in each of those places I have a line but it would be a sort of traveler's map showing suspected places of power and aproximate areas of strength. To actually plot specific locations of power it would have to be done at a much closer level, an area of power would be just a small part in a village, that might have five or so lines running out from it. If you were in the village and attuned to that magic you'd certainly be aware there was something unusual there but it would be possible to be on the other side of the village to a place of power and never really know it until you got close.. Any thoughts on the physical width of a major leyline? to me the actual chanel of power would be narrow but the area of influence around would be strong for a short distance then taper off for a longer way.
Dream Spinner 07-20-03, 09:25 PM	I think the actual width of the leyline changes with the power of it. The length depends on how far that element goes. The width on how much there is, or whatever that determines the power of the element. I don't really know what I'm saying. But I said it.
Bandido 07-21-03, 11:23 AM	I like the map. How did you do it? As for how wide the leyline is, I was thinking that they should be. on average, around 2 metres/ 6 ft wide, but, as Dream Spinner said, the thickness should vary with the strength of the leyline. What do you think?
WizO_Iyala 07-21-03, 05:52 PM	It's done in watercolours :) I actually cheated and printed out a very pale outline from a map I made on AutoRealm (cause there's no way I can do sensible coastlines on my own) and then painted it with watercolours. Then I had a sheet of transparant plastic (that I very much didn't kidnap from work :angel: ) and painted the leylines on in acrylic. It means that I can add other layers to represent towns, roads, or whatever else I want :) As my first experietn with watercolours in years it didn't come out too bad but it's not quite what I had in mind. I imagine the leylines right by a place of power would maybe be a foot across, with perhaps a 10 foot or larger width of very strong strong power, tapering off to a width of about a foot's width of power, maybe 50 feet of increased power and a larger sort of aura of magic.
WizO_Iyala 07-28-03, 05:36 PM	I think we've ogt just one more element to work on now and it's going to be a hard one.... Fire Magic The magic of fire is strong and highly concentrated, an experienced fire mage cannot necessarily be depended on to do their part in a crisis but once they are convinced of something, like a shadow mage, they cannot be swayed as their passion and strength burns long and fierce. Although a fire mage might follow their own rules they make reliable friends and committed enemies. Unlike a water mage which is fickle, a fire mage is simply highly independant and will generally act out of their own reasoning. A fire mage's strength is their comitment but this can also become a weakness if their passion is subverted or misdirected. They are quick to anger but quick to forgive in most cases, however once a mage has taken on vendetta she will not step aside from that calling. The element of fire offers what is often seen as an "easy" path into magic however those who take that approach often find to their cost that true mastery and understanding of the element is far from simple. To command fire is common among mages but to weild it with good judgment without becoming lost to it is a rare skill. A large amount of the training a fire mage goes through involves control, of themselves and their powers. In unfamiliar situations this means that they might tend to stand back and observe however they are often drawn into conflicts without realising it. It's a dificult distinction to draw but a fire mage will not let himself get drawn in easily but once in a situation, argument or relationship, emotions and tempers will often run high quickly and without warning. So long as they can look in from the outside and observe all they can control their emotions but they are prone to outbursts on issues they feel strongly about. --------------------------- These are just my thoughts. The major problem here is separating fire magic from Red Mana Magic, something that I feel is very important to do. Most of that was based on the idea of a fiery temper rather than anything MTG. Any thoughts?
Oops 07-29-03, 03:14 AM	Without reading this thread, I'd like to say this: I greatly dislike the idea of everything being composed of different amounts of specific elements. If I want something to have an elemental theme without being aligned to a preexisting element, I want just that. I haven't actually read back to see if anyone is seriously suggesting this, but if I'm going to contribute anything more than backround noise, I want to have this freedom. In other words, if Aristotle moves in, I'm moving back out.
WizO_Iyala 07-29-03, 03:32 AM	Originally posted by Oops I greatly dislike the idea of everything being composed of different amounts of specific elements.Then you should be happy because no one has suggested that everything in the world is made up of different amounts of elements. Elemental magic is a way to access powers and the different elements have different characteristics. Nowhere here has anyone ever suggested that everything in the world be aligned to an element or that everything be compsed of the elements. You've got the freedom to say whatever you want about the project and disagree with stuff in principle without even giving the idea the courtesy of reading it but fortunatly everyone else has the freedom to read the threads and judge things on their merits rather than simply posting on the basis of their understanding of where an idea was two months ago.
Galen 07-29-03, 04:45 AM	A suggestion/modification when it comes to fire magic. Fire magic is the easiest magic to use since harnessing fire/heat is easy to learn. This understandably is the reason why most, especially other magic users think fire magic is the "easy path" to learn and harness elemental magic. What most don't know is there's another stage in Fire magic w/c is practiced by very few. It deals with learning how to control them to perfection. Learning how to summon fire and anything similar is easy but the second stage, w/c is absolute control of fire magic, is considered suicidal. Very few attempts them with only a meager handful survives(literally) the ordeal and most of the times nobody ever succeed on learning the second stage. Mages who knows the second stage are few and very reclusive since being discovered as weilder of such power over fire magic is a serious threat to other elemental magic that anybody being discovered of knowing it are automatically targetted to be killed(imagine a mage capable of unleashing so much heat that it can disintegrate anything to the basic atomuc particles).
nick012000 07-29-03, 04:57 AM	mages learn disintigrate at level 13. :P
Oops 07-29-03, 03:32 PM	WizO_Iyala, I was not pointing my comment at any particular idea that was already on this thread. I just wanted to make my concern known, and I didn't want to wait until I had read 4 or more pages of stuff I had missed at 3:15 a.m. to determine how urgent my concern was. I didn't mean that everything is aligned to an element (I guess I was unclear on that. I meant all magic being composed of specific elements); what I meant is that I didn't want a fixed set of elements. If such a thing was in place, I'd feel that I really couldn't contribute much of anything. If everyone had already agreed to not to have that, you should have simply told me. I see no reason to be sarcastic. Would you have responded differently if I had not told you that I had not read a significant amount of this thread?
WizO_Iyala 07-29-03, 09:08 PM	There was no sarcasm there :) If you hadn't mentioned that you'd not read the thread I would simply have wondered where on earth you got the idea that that was what we were doing from. Considering the slow speed we've been working at in the last week there's no urgency in getting critisisms in. That said, you should probably be aware that we have decided that we are using leylines and on a number of the principles of magic. Considering how little we decided on world issues rather than race issues before this, it's a great step forward :) Galen : a lot of that was pretty much what I was trying to say but doing so badly :) I'm not sure they should be quite so reclusive at a simple second level, that would be perhaps the ultimate fire mage but they might be better off having more steps in between maybe?
Galen 07-29-03, 09:50 PM	Originally posted by WizO_Iyala Galen : a lot of that was pretty much what I was trying to say but doing so badly :) I'm not sure they should be quite so reclusive at a simple second level, that would be perhaps the ultimate fire mage but they might be better off having more steps in between maybe? When I said second stage I didn't mean second level, that's too easy to achieve. I'll elaborate it further: The first stage that I meant has to do with merely learning how to cast fire spells. Even a level 15 mage would still be considered on stage 1 since they never know how to control and perfect the spells. By my best estimate a mage would be considered on stage 1 if his level is from 1 to 20. After that he has 2 choices, stay as it is or cross over to stage 2. Crossing over to stage 2 require hard and excruciating training forcing himself to gather experience at an exponential pace. The training would be a compressed level 21-29. If he succeed then he has crossed over to stage 2(level 30 and above) otherwise suffer the repercussion of failing. Most often failure means death w/c is why there are very few mages who try much less succeed.
Oops 07-29-03, 10:45 PM	WizO_Iyala, the second paragraph of your response to my first post is laden with sarcasm. If you did not intend to be sarcastic, please edit it. I'm disappointed that my system did not get in, but I'm not really surprised. I'm not going to respond further until I've read this thread through. Is there anything else I really need to read?
nick012000 07-29-03, 11:46 PM	i have an idea. maybe put elemental vortices at the leyline hubs.
Oops 07-30-03, 06:48 PM	I've just skimmed through this thread, and although this doesn't really give me a good idea of what has happened, it tells me enough to make me EXTREMELY disappointed. :( It appears that everything I said on the old boards that was magic related amounts to filibustering. :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :mad: If you care at all about my opinions here, you need to email me. Then I might say something useful. :twitch: :mad:
WizO_Iyala 07-30-03, 07:23 PM	Originally posted by Oops WizO_Iyala, the second paragraph of your response to my first post is laden with sarcasm. If you did not intend to be sarcastic, please edit it. No sarcasm there. Sarcasm is "oh yeah right, trained org is an incredible card and everyone loves it". Everything I said there I 100% mean. I'm sorry if the tone seems blunt but that's not the same as sarcasm. That is my feeling on the issue. How would elemental vortices work, Nick? Would that be a vortex in terms of general swirliness? or in terms of a sort of hole? I'd imagined air leylines as being swirly and vortex-like but it might be a little out of flavor for the other elements. I suppose there would be certain fluctuations in the power at the points of power. This might be something to apply on a small scale to points where different leylines cross. Not so much a melding of power but a mingling :) It would created a dual mini point of power without having to create some sort of subtypes of magic for where each of the different elements would mix :)
Leaves 07-30-03, 08:27 PM	In additon to standard English definitions of "vortex", there is a D&D specific definition, relating to the planes. To quote, "vortices exist between similar locations on other planes. These natural weak spots in reality allow creatures to move easily from an Inner Plane to the Material Plane. The heart of a volcano often contains a vortex between the Material Planeand the Elemental Plane of Fire . . ." (Manual of the Planes p. 66) Basically, elemental vortices are doorways between the normal world and the elemental planes. I don't know if that's what nick meant, but I thought I'd throw that out there. I like the idea of mingling of elemental energies in a vortice-like fashion where leylines of different elements cross. I would point out, though, that I'm not sure we have decided that leylines themselves have different elements, as in a seperate system of leylines for each element, or whether the leylines are "color-less" and the elemental-ness comes from the energy being tainted by whatever sort of terraign it was passing through. I could go either way. On the one hand, leylines of different elements would make for interesting interactions, different flavors for each system of lines, and I think it makes it more explainable that all types of element are available in all areas: such as, fire leylines in the ocean. On the other hand, non-element leylines seem to jive better with the core D&D spellcasting classes. It would seem like all spellcasters and spells would be specialized for one type of magic if all leylines were of one element or another. Of course, "general swirliness" is good, too. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafwink.txt Oops: Could you be more specific? I'm not sure at all what you are refering too. It's been 4 weeks or so since I read the old Nature of Magic thread, and I don't even remember if I finished it all, let alone who said what.
WizO_Iyala 07-31-03, 03:34 AM	Originally posted by Leaves I would point out, though, that I'm not sure we have decided that leylines themselves have different elements, as in a seperate system of leylines for each element, or whether the leylines are "color-less" and the elemental-ness comes from the energy being tainted by whatever sort of terraign it was passing through. Unless I'm missing something, the difference between the two in effect is actually pretty similar on a basic level. But one major advantage of having specific elemental lines is that it seems to make more sense when it comes to having elemental sources in areas or another element's strength. Going back to the idea of hot vents in the sea being a source or fire magic, if we went with the colourless idea, which I picture as a sort of window into the land, it's hard to see that the water magic might not be dominant in the area and over-ride the fire magic. I too can go either way on this. The way I've been looking at it is that the lines themselves are simply channels with no inherant alignment of their own but over time, as they are filled with a specific magic they will take on those characteristics. So a recent shadow point of power may actually have the layout more typical or the element is has surplanted perhaps :) And thanks for the definition on votex :D it never occured to me it might be a "reserved word"
nick012000 07-31-03, 04:16 AM	well, what i'm thinking, is that the lelines are weakenings in the walls between the planes, speading out between vortices, which are holes in the fabric of the planes.
Galen 07-31-03, 05:05 AM	Originally posted by Galen When I said second stage I didn't mean second level, that's too easy to achieve. I'll elaborate it further: The first stage that I meant has to do with merely learning how to cast fire spells. Even a level 15 mage would still be considered on stage 1 since they never know how to control and perfect the spells. By my best estimate a mage would be considered on stage 1 if his level is from 1 to 20. After that he has 2 choices, stay as it is or cross over to stage 2. Crossing over to stage 2 require hard and excruciating training forcing himself to gather experience at an exponential pace. The training would be a compressed level 21-29. If he succeed then he has crossed over to stage 2(level 30 and above) otherwise suffer the repercussion of failing. Most often failure means death w/c is why there are very few mages who try much less succeed. *Whistles.*
WizO_Iyala 07-31-03, 07:03 PM	And when I said level I didn't mean D&D levels, I just meant, well, levels, groups, categories, strata within the studying :) I don't think a two tier system would work, I think it needs more like a 5 or upwards system. In an attempt to avoid D&D terms: Grade 1 : most if not all mages are at this level, they can chuck around minor fireballs and call flames to wood. Tpower is hard to sustain consistantly for very long and tends to be erratic Grade 2 : The Novice. This covers mages who have a strong sympathy with fire magic and have dedicated them selves to studying it or those with very strong natural talent. A true understanding of the nature of fire leylines teds to be a part of this level. Spells are a little more diverse but still fairly limited. Grade 3 : The disciple. This covers mages who have worked at their art and dedicated themseleve to the study and use of fire magic to the exclusion of other elements. This is not possible without devoting years to magic and is very hard to achieve by mages of mixed sympathies. Spells are powerful and focused. Grade 4 : The priest. This covers mages who have devoted a large portion of their life to fire magic (this would be roughly equivilent to the training perios in your example Galen?) They often learn with other mages for some time before isolating themselves to continue their studies. Spells can be cast over a large scale and devestate indescriminately. Grade 5 : The transcended. This wouldcover your final level two, a look would mean death and only at this grade would a mage learn the finest points of controling fire magic, to spin it to tendrils rather than torrents. They would be feared and avoided and very, very rare. Spells would be almost unlimited in power and infinitely versatile. I don't mean to suggest there would be literal qualifications and steps to be covered in being a fire mage but they would be the general path, perhaps with their own rights of passage? I just feel there should be more than simply a choice between being a random scrub fire caster and dedicating yourself to the level two path.
Galen 07-31-03, 08:47 PM	I'm just using the D&D levels since it's only way I could simply express what I meant but anything's fine with me. As for the grades the ff designation I believe would be more appropriate: Grade 1: Apprentice Grade 2: Novice Grade 3: Expert Grade 4: Researcher Grade 5: Transcened I'm not implying that there is only one path to the last stage, I'm just implying that to reach the final stage requires tremendous amount of study and effort that the success and survival rate is something like 2%(just to keep the number of stage 5 fire magic users at the barest minimum). Bottom line is the fire magic users have the option of going through the process and risk everything or specialize on what they already know.
WizO_Iyala 08-01-03, 03:31 AM	It just looked like they seemed to have the option of either being very basic or trying to follow the dedicated path to the end, my "grade" system is just suggesting there would be different stopping places along the way. I don't thing the first grade would be well termed "apprentice" though - most of the mages in this level would have absolutely no interest in persuing the magic any further, they'd be satisfied with just having low level access to fire magic. The word "apprentice" suggests to me the first step in a process. I really like the idea of this sort of progression in fire magic, a more regimented path fits with the sort of control fire magic will need.
Galen 08-01-03, 05:16 AM	Originally posted by WizO_Iyala It just looked like they seemed to have the option of either being very basic or trying to follow the dedicated path to the end, my "grade" system is just suggesting there would be different stopping places along the way. I don't thing the first grade would be well termed "apprentice" though - most of the mages in this level would have absolutely no interest in persuing the magic any further, they'd be satisfied with just having low level access to fire magic. The word "apprentice" suggests to me the first step in a process. I really like the idea of this sort of progression in fire magic, a more regimented path fits with the sort of control fire magic will need. Last useless banter for me before I go the way of the dodo for this week. I see where we are making the misinterpretation. I keep thinking you meant that the grade system is a path of experience. I agree that fire mages can choose the path w/c they feel suits they purpose and the grade system should be something like a way of measurement on how proficient they are on their magic. BTW it was either that or it should go like this: Stage 1: Novice Stage 2: Conjurer If novice would be stage 2 the only reasonable Stage 1 I could think of would be apprentice.
Taeblewalker 02-18-06, 09:59 PM	That looks wonderful! I also like the clothes. And she looks at peace, which is what I'd think is common for an air mage. One thing I'm wondering about: What is that she standing on? I am missing something. I just signed on, and I am registered, but I cannot see this pic! How do I get a look at it? I do have graphics enabled. Thanks. Taeblewalker
the_one_true_shea 02-18-06, 10:18 PM	I am missing something. I just signed on, and I am registered, but I cannot see this pic! How do I get a look at it? I do have graphics enabled. Thanks. Taeblewalker Unfortunatly Table(sp?)walker - the linked image in question is not available at this time. You see you cant upload images onto this website (to my knowledge) and that means the best you can do is link them.. for example http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafwink.txt this is actuall an image from leaf's geocities account.. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafwink.txt is the link without the {img}tag{/img} around it ... (replace { with [ and it works) there is a forum faq.. here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73705) that should be able to answer allot of "technical" questions about how the vb scripting stuff works... how familiar are you with html?
the_one_true_shea 02-18-06, 10:45 PM	Huh.. this one deffinitly needs a summary point! There is allot of serious stuff that got decided here.. Anyone else want to give a wack at consilidating the thrust of the elemental magic thread in less than 50k characters? (thats how many characters can be in a post btw 50k.. I have smashed that line a few times I must admit).
Taeblewalker 02-19-06, 12:25 AM	Unfortunatly Table(sp?)walker - the linked image in question is not available at this time. You see you cant upload images onto this website (to my knowledge) and that means the best you can do is link them.. for example http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafwink.txt this is actuall an image from leaf's geocities account.. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafwink.txt is the link without the {img}tag{/img} around it ... (replace { with [ and it works) there is a forum faq.. here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73705) that should be able to answer allot of "technical" questions about how the vb scripting stuff works... how familiar are you with html? I have never used it, though I did program in VBASIC, QBASIC, FORTRAN, etc. back in the day. And yes, that is supposed to be Taeblewalker. I took the spelling from Taelord in Heroscape. Thanks.