Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Brknlf 01-04-05, 11:20 AM	As the flow of threads on this board come and go in waves, I too post every few months. That could be a good thing or, more likely, it could be a bad thing. At least this post might be close to moving my last contribution off the first page of this forum. I really believe the idea behind this board can work, and work quite well if done right. With every incoming wave of new posts there are offers of new regions, cultures, ethnicities, races, magic, cosmologies, etc. I believe every idea could be easily incorporated into an entire world weave, created by a board community such as this one. However, there are a few things that seem to hinder the influx of incoming ideas, usually represented by the stubborn opposition of a few. The stubborn opposition of a few really stems the flow of new posters that could contribute wonderful additions to a growing world. With this said, I just thought I’d offer some thoughts, ideas and suggestions that I’ve come across in participating in this project and others like it. I do not mean to offer advice on what kind of world to build but on how to operate as a community that is building a world together. For convenience World Creation Project is abbreviated as WCP. On Creating as a Community While one of the easier concepts to understand, I think most people overlook the idea of community in this creation process. Without being too daft, such as directly quoting the dictionary or putting up a link to a dictionary, a community is a unified body of individuals with a common interest. Sure the community is composed of individuals, but the common interest that binds the community overrides individuality. What do I mean by this? We all want to help create a world together otherwise we wouldn’t be posting here in this specific forum. However, as soon as we forget that we are a community and start creating alone, we have stepped outside of the community (and should just wander off to the areas set aside for creating alone). So, when we post an idea for what we think is the uber-race and someone offers a suggestion to make it better, we shouldn’t get mad or upset with the individual. As soon as we condemn every suggestion to change the idea we’ve come up with individually, which is really just creating alone, we’ve stepped outside the spirit of the community to create this world together. Thusly, when making a suggestion for the world being created by WCP, one should always be open to the idea that the idea may not be accepted or thought of by everyone else as we have envisioned it. On the Purpose of the WCP This is subtly hinted at in the forum blurb and in the stickies. However, I still think people are missing the mark at what Wiz_O Paradox envisioned for the WCP when he originally proposed the idea on the M:tG and D&D metaboards (now M:tG/D&D General forums). The idea was to create a world which could then be converted into both RPG and TCG stats. This is the biggest hurdle to cross over for most posters, it came up a lot on the original boards and I still see it turning up when people suggest basing magic off a system already being used. In all honesty, converting directly from D&D to M:tG is not possible, they are completely different. The concept for the world created should be taken in the same context as previously created worlds, such as Disc World as an example. I use Discworld as an example to prevent misinterpretation of what I am attempting to do here. Now, while there is no direct correlation between Disc World and either D&D or M:tG, fans can create stats for either game based off the writings of Terry Pratchett. A fan could represent Cohen the Barbarian using the D&D PHB, coming to a close proximity. Thus, fans of Discworld could see the correlation between the stated barbarian and the Cohen character in the novels. A D&D fan could also come up with a Prestige Class (as an example) to represent someone who is ‘Octave Touched’, such as Rincewind who is sort of joined with the 8th Octave (which starts all the Discworld adventures). Now, on the other hand, an M:tG player could come along and create a Legend card for Cohen the barbarian, deciding on two colors that best represent the personality of Cohen and adding some flavor text that relates to the casting cost or abilities given to the Summon Cohen card they have created. Likewise, they could create a nifty enchantment that can be placed on summoned creatures to represent the Octave infusing with Rincewind. Again, a fan of Discworld could see some correlation between the fantasy card created and the novels. The created cards and the D&D stats may not have any direct relationship whatsoever, but fans of Discworld can bridge the gaps between these two different game systems because they are aware of the world in which the conversions are based. Long story short - that is the purpose of WCP. To create a world independent of both D&D and M:tG, but then, also, to have fans of both gaming systems offer conversions of the world created here so that D&D players could effectively run a campaign in a setting based of the world created here or for M:tG players to use cards in a ‘fantasy’ deck based of the setting as well. Not the other way around, shaping the world into the concept of M:tG rules or D&D rules. On Offering Something New This is an important aspect of the world, the ideas of the individuals that are incorporated into the community project are what will keep the WCP alive. However, this is where most posts fall short. Thing one, if an idea is completely thought out and offered in detail as a finished project, it was really an individual task and I’ve touched on this above. If you want to create things by yourself, please see the links I will provided – these links allow for the criticism of individual ideas. You can and should feel free to create races, classes, cards, worlds, spells, etc. by yourself, however, that is not the purpose of the WCP. This isn’t to say the idea offered shouldn’t be ‘finished’, but it should allow for expansion. As an example, lets take a city that someone has just offered to the community. Now, if a poster comes along, likes the work that has been done and then proceeds to offer the idea of a certain harbor master who is old and has a history outside of the city, the original poster for the city itself shouldn’t dismiss the idea of this harbor master because they never pictured the harbor master existing in their city. In fact, when someone creates a city and someone else is willing to add to that city, not only is that the purpose of the WCP, but it is also a form of flattery that the second poster is so inspired by the original idea that they’ve come up with ideas of their own. A warning to the weary on this subject, and touching on the concept of world creation from the standpoint of creating small to large or large to small. In summary, this concept is whether to create the larger details first or the smaller details first. For anyone who has created an entire world (not just a campaign setting), they probably realize there is no distinction between whether one starts small or large – working either way they lead together. Working alone, one creates small portions that lead to the creation of large portions, which in turn inspires the creation of more detail on a smaller level. The warning of this however, is that if large portions are defined and set in stone early on it limits the overall creative potential of the community based project. Thusly, if a cosmology of gods is created and agreed upon and set in stone and then, later down the road, someone starts creating a small grouping of islands half-way around the world that is more spiritualistic then polytheistic they are already throwing themselves against a brick wall. The original contributors to the established gods will be opposed to the idea of spiritualistic magic that works outside the influence of deities themselves. Now, this leads to the next topic for a community WCP. On What is Canon This is perhaps the most serious topic for the WCP. Many contributors want to know what is and isn’t included in the ‘actual’ world itself. They want to know what can inspire their ideas and what could affect their ideas. This is touchy because an idea can’t be wholly incorporated until it is flushed out and then accepted by the community that is created the world. How should an idea make the transition from being a work in progress to be accepted as part of the world itself (and then be posted on WizO Shadow’s website for the WCP)? As this is a community forum, ideas to be incorporated into the world should follow the concept of thread life and death. That is, a thread stays alive as people continue to contribute to the thread itself. A new post to a thread brings it to the top of the WotC forums. Likewise, no responses to a thread push it to the end and generally signal its death (not including bumps by the original poster). To transition from the idea of thread life and death to canonizing material for the WCP and establishing, perhaps, the only rule for the community, material should only be canonized based on the amount of contributors, besides the original poster, after it grows to a given number of pages and/or a communal vote. By amount of contributors, I mean if an idea has 5+ posters continual adding new ideas or working off the idea, it could be considered part of the world. I suggest more than a few posters because 2 people working off/building a single idea doesn’t really represent a community. Likewise, I suggest a communal vote/poll because posters outside the 5+ regular contributors to a singular idea might not be aware the idea is about to be canonized and, while not interested in helping with the idea, might be interested in looking at the more finished concept before its inception into canonization. As a side note on canonization and later contributions. Even something that is canon should never be considered final. Look at any ongoing project involving an entire world and notice that canon itself can and does change (whether it is gaming material such as the Dragonlance world or stand alone fictional worlds such as the Marvel Universe). So, in the above example of the accepted cosmology of deities and the incorporation of spiritualistic divine inspiration, the idea should be considered and if enough people like the idea of having both, then both can be made canon. On History and Flavor This one leads to big arguments, such as whether to use crossbows or if crossbows might ruin the flavor of the world. Worse yet, it also leads to the question ‘should we have gunpowder or should we make a magical substance that works just the same but isn’t gunpowder.’ To this, I say ‘who cares.’ In this regard a page should again be taken from already established worlds that are on-going, being worked on contentiously by various authors. Why limit oneself to a key anchor in the timeline of a world? Look at the Earthdawn/Shadowrun games developed by FASA decades ago. One was the ancient past of Earth and one was the future of Earth. Earthdawn as the medieval fantasy form of the world and Shadowrun was the cyberpunk form of the same world. In between both was the world we know. The timeline itself is a wonderful thing and we shouldn’t be afraid to think of it differently than time as we know it. The timeline could be a fluid river that wavers and even changes at time. Even if the timeline wavers, that doesn’t mean there needs to be drastic changes in the outcome of events. As an example, if a futuristic, cyberpunk driven time is represented in the world time and someone changes the industrial revolution to include some magic or another, that doesn’t mean it can’t still lead to the futuristic, cyberpunk time zone that is already accepted as canon. In fact the more diverse timeline given, the more areas that individuals can contribute to – dark dreary futurists can work on a dark dreary portion of the ‘future’ timeline while archaic activists can work on ancient history before magic was sophisticated and that atlatl was the weapon of choice in warfare. On Creating Alone Every third or fourth post usually ends up reading ‘I’ve created all this and I want an opinion on it.’ These posts are either ignored, pointed in another direction or, rarely, someone offers a sentence or two of advice. It is stated in one of the stickies and I’ll say it as well - there are places on these boards to create your own races, classes, and even campaign worlds alone. Here are the links: The Campain Workshop (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=295) forum. Here you can create your own world and post it for suggestions. Its best if you really need advice and ask for help on the world, otherwise you’ll only receive a few posts either saying it’s a good idea or questioning an element of the world you have created. The Race (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18) forum. Just have an interesting idea for a race that you’ve developed in detail, post in the Race forum. Only post it on the WCP if you are willing to allow other posters to manipulate, contribute or modify your creation and only if you’re willing to incorporate your race into the world being created on WCP. The Classes and Prestige Classes (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17) forum. Self explanatory and the same as races section above. If there are going to be any ‘classes’ posted on WCP, it should stem from the world as it stands and be offered as a conversion to D&D for the world that is being created. The D&D (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8) Sub-forums. The races and classes boards mentioned above are all a part of the grouping of forums in the D&D sub-forums. If you’ve created anything for D&D and want feedback on it, browse these boards. If you’ve made a spell, magic item, feat, skill, monster, cosmology, and anything else related to D&D and you want feedback comments or have balance questions for the D&D game, check at these forums for helpful criticism on your individual creation. The You Make the Card (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=160) forum. Just made a new sliver, artifact or land card and want some feed back. Try this forum for homemade M:tG cards. The M:tG Storylines (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=456) forum. Dominaria is already a living, breathing setting. The WCP should not be an attempt to recreate that world setting. Its been done and continues to grow thanks to a thriving community of writers. Conclusion In summary, this is a community effort to create a world, not a community established to critique the ideas of everyone else. Those communities are already established. The WCP is for the creation of a world that stands alone from game mechanics, such as those found in D&D or M:tG, but one that can be converted into game mechanics. The creation of the world itself should be a community project, in which all individuals that share the common interest of creating a world jointly can and will freely contribute to the growth of the world itself. Thanks for your time, Richie Edited for some Typos and to add the Your Make the Card link.
SphereMaster 02-04-05, 11:52 AM	At the expense of reading all of that again just to figure out what to leave out of the quote and what to leave in, I deleted the entire quote with the hopes that future readers or posters may actually be able to follow along even if I don't leave in specific portions of the quote to serve as bread crumbs along the path of this dark forest that anyone who wants to join the WCP ends up travelling. That being said, I believe I have a solution to the problem of the WCP possibly losing the inspired originality of being a community project, allowing the possibility of anything anyone posts remaining without the need for committees to decide what committees should form councils and investigative review boards to agree on the terms of an election to decide who should get the job as dog catcher while making sure that said elected post doesn't put my dog in the pound the day after the press conference in which I announced that I had supported his campaign positions all along. Anyone get the point of that? Probably not, but then that might be the reason that no one has posted a reply to this thread since the fourth of January, unless it was because everyone is still hung over while partying over New Years. The point that I am getting to is this. I have an idea that could solve this issue, whether there is an issue or not. The reason that I will not mention it here is probably because while there is the problem of this vastly interconnected WCP that inspires everyone to add a little piece to, there is the problem of credit and ownership that everyone should be entitled to. In other words, if WoTC decides that this is a snappy idea, will the author of that idea get some kind of credit for contributing or will they get their post deleted and then end up reading their contribution in book and not seeing that they were included in the process. If this sounds bitter, I apolegize. But it happened to me when TSR was in control and they were running that 'fallen gods' campaign off of second edition. I sent in ideas for modules, followed writer's guidelines and was turned down, only to read my ideas in print a year or so later. Rather than fight it, I lost interest in D&D for about a decade. I am in the process of building a website and a forum that totally supports my idea, since it is the 'home brew' campaign world that my home group is immersed in. I am hoping to create an environment that will allow on-line play within this campaign world. I would love to be a part of the WCP, but since my idea is my idea, I want to keep it my idea. I don't think I am alone in this. Please accept my apolegy if this came across as a slam, flame or other incendiary move. It was not meant to be. I see a need and I want to help. I am drugged up on a cheap generic version of Nyquil because I am sick right now. Take more than a grain of salt with my post. Take this thought as well: Someone somewhere will get something out of this. I hope that person is you. Oh, and one last thing. I doubt it would hurt too much to allow for God to be God and the deities and demi-gods to be mortal to Him as we are to them.
Brknlf 02-04-05, 01:05 PM	There really isn't an issue to speak of at the moment. I was just offering some comments on things I have encountered both on this project and others like it. There are 2 problems that always seem to arise from the creative standpoint when numerous individuals want to share ideas in creating a world (on a forum that is open to the public such as this one). These always happen and these are the points I was trying to address when I wrote started this thread. The first problem is when one person offers an idea and then a second poster comes along to disagree. This results in an extended thread not so much dealing with the original topic or idea as it really develops into an arguement of both sides trying to validate their points. This is more simply handled by the disagreeing poster(s) not bothering to negatively criticize or argue an idea. By not contributing to a thread (negatively), it falls off the main page of a forum and enters thread limbo. Starting an arguement keeps the idea alive and the initial poster will renew interest in the idea as they defend their reasoning for trying to include it. That or learn who to constructively criticize someone's idea (ie, This sounds interesting, I wonder if this were changed, how the whole idea would be affected). The second problem is that one person finds a creative streak and, in one foul swoop, they describe a significant portion that affects the whole world. That is one person alone tries to decide how magic operates, how many gods there are, how big the world is, what the major land mass is, etc. Wanting to create so much isn't so bad, except for those people that want to create by themselves, there already exists forums for such an outlet (homebrew forums, make your own card forums, make your own race forums, make your own class forums, etc.). Doing this, trying to create large chunks individually, on a cooperative project like this really just limits other posters in what they can contribute. Either other posters leave the boards or this forces them towards starting a disagreement with the initial poster.. I think we need to look past the Straw Man fallacy you are trying to set up in your first paragraph. Not to say it was meant argumentatively and I do realize you are not trying to argue. The whole point of discussing how and why something should be cannon is really as simple as saying this: "If multiple posters like an idea and contribute to the idea, it becomes cannon. If one or two people are writing up a storm that no one else is interested in, it does not become cannon." The whole thing about mentioning a possible voting process is because most people on a cooperative project like this would like to think there is some kind of democracy in place. Then again, it really falls back to the statement I put in quotes just now. If numerous people like it, its in, if only one or two people like it, its out. This also falls back to the concept of who will use the board. Despite what people claim as cannon or not, it is the nature of contemporary RPG/TCG players to change things to suit them. Even if the entire board declares that X is cannon, if lurker Y wants to run a campaign using this world, they have the option to completley ignore X. All that aside, you do raise another issue that leads to the death of projects like this (be it creative projects or even story telling projects). It probably warrants a section of its own. Something like this: On Legal Matters If someone is worried about the intellectual property of ideas they might like to contribute to the WCP, they might really consider not posting them. There really is nothing in place to stop someone from browsing this board, finding something inspiring and, then, writing up their own version and publishing it for money. This is the case with most any and all intellectual property. It would be really hard to actually argue that a fiction writer who included the blue vorpal teeth goblins of dimension X in their latest book stole the concept from the red vorpal teeth goblins of the cave of Y posted on this board (and then lost when the boards are pruned), despite any number of similarities that may exist between said red and blue goblins (the color being the only real difference). Adding legalities is about as mundane as writing rules on how and why something should become cannon in a cooperative project. The simplest solution is to say this: "All material posted in a public forum jointly becomes the property of the forum itself. All contributors of said forum share joint legal rights to the forums property." Which is the somewhat legalize way of saying, "If you want to keep the idea as your own, don't post it." End Topical Insert Basically, the idea is that anyone who thinks they may have something that is worth publishing or could be worth publishing shouldn't share the idea with a widely viewed public audience before publishing. This is the nature of the beast with all cooperative projects. This included the more famous ones like Thieves' World, Dragonlance, or the Wild Card series. Even these concepts have a central figrue (or figures) responsible for monitoring the information that is included (the editors usually). I highly doubt that WotC will come along, like the world being created here and then revoke all public privileges so that they can develop fictional books, RPG supplements and/or a card block based off the work here without giving any credit where credit is due. However, for those worried about this happening, or more worried about their ideas being stolen, they just shouldn't post those ideas here. If someone wants to be a part of a cooperative project that may some day publish the work, they should do like those who have come before them have done. Seek contributors to their idea and remain the central figure/editor of that concept. In the same vein, that's not to sound argumentative or rude. Rather, if you are worried about the idea, don't post it. In the odd case I do publish something later (which I don't intend to do), I don't want you coming along and saying I stole the idea because I made some weird promise regarding legality issues on a public forum. Which I really don't see happening either because the ideas that I want to keep for myself are kept to myself (either in notebooks or documents relating to my own homebrew world).
the_one_true_shea 03-19-05, 10:41 PM	I have a piece of advice for Brknlf in particular. Its based on something that a wise old man once told me. If, you spent half as much time actually writing creative material for the WCP as you do harping on other people for not creating properly, then you would be the largest contributor to the creative process of this board. Instead you are simply the largest windbag, only Mak has come off as annoying as you in my world creation project board review. Creativity coming soon. :D Sorry to harp at ya son but I felt that you should get alittle dished out to you. Believe in the golden rule, don't you?
Brknlf 03-21-05, 01:24 PM	I don't mind having anything dished out to me. However, I have been active (off/on) with the WCP since it was merely an idea on the D&D/MTG Metaboards (2002 or so - it is much older than the last date on the oldest thread currently here). I have worked out several different systems of magic with the group, which always seems to change (I was the original contributor of the leyline concept when the WCP was merely a thread on the metaboards, I've offered some advice on the recent incarnation of ambiant magic which can be found on these boards). I have also contributed to the work in progress on the Lizard Men of the Desert. Some old contributions were lost in prunning the boards and a lot more was lost when the boards were moved completely. There are a couple contributions of mine that remain on the boards. One is merely a flavor offering, Parting Passage of the Ithawu (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=62562) , and the other was an offering at a region for others to contribute too, The Hinterlund Expanse (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=263210) . I have spent more time contributing then actually working on this post about how to work as a community. However, due to the issues and concerns I have pointed at in this thread, all the contributions have gone to the wayside (either in silly arguments about what should be included in the world and what shouldn't - or stupid arguments about how the world should be created (large to small vs small to large) or how the nature of magic should exist in this world and whether to metathink the concept to make if fit easier into game mechanics). The only thing more annoying then someone offering advice is someone demeaning the value of said advice or arguing it outright. This post was only offered as advice, not golden rules or strict guidelines. Everyone is free to consider these things when offering contributions or they can throw them out the window.