Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dream Spinner 07-02-03, 04:09 PM	Was there anything decided on the planuar system of our world and the universe it exists on? I have a general concept which fits nicely with the current Warring Pantheons idea we have for the gods.
WizO_Iyala 07-02-03, 08:33 PM	Yes there was. The discussion on planes involved: the MTG players expalining what our version was the D&D players explaining what their version was a lot of debate about terminology neither side entirely understanding the concepts of the other a lot of headaches on both sides And then the discussion moved on to save us all from going insane. The main problem was that we're making a world which means that planes in an MTG sense are effectively irrelevan because it's a concept we can't mess with. In a D&D sense (and I only have the mildest of grasps of this concept) it becomes insanely difficult to adapt to MTG because each plane effectively brings the conecpt of shadow in if they don't interact and if they do interact, what's the point in fussing with different planes. I think. If anyone comments on this form a D&D point of view vcan they do so in really easy, short words that I'll understand please, because I realy didn't get it last time.
nick012000 07-03-03, 06:21 AM	alright. lengthy post ahead. every plane is a self contained universe. however, they have links between each other. some overlap to greater or lesser extents. for example the material plane (real world) and the Etherial Plane. From the Material Plane, under normal circumstances, the Planes apear to be totally seperate. However, certain abilities, like True Seeing, see invisibility, and force effects, can effect the Etherial Plane. People on the Etherial Plane can see the Material Plane, as if through a thick fog and out of focus, but cannot physically affect it (except for manifested ghosts). The Plane of Shadow resembes the Material Plane, but it appears dark and twisted, as does anything that has been there for too long. The Elemental Planes, and the Positive and Negative Energy Planes, are collectively termed the Inner Planes. Out of all the Planes, they are probably the most uncaringly deadly. They are primarily composed of the Element or Energy they are. For example, the Elemental Plane of Earth is primarily rock and dirt, but it has magma, caverns, and streams in it as well. The Elemental Plane of Water is primarily composed of water, but it has the occasional air bubble, and patch of steam or mud. The Elemental Plane of Air has the occasional floating hunk of rock, areas of very heavy rain, or smoke. the elemental plane of fire has magma, geysers, and heat waves. The Energy Planes are composed of the energies that power living (Positive) or undead (negative) souls. I won't go on about for long, because they are less relevant. The primary links between the Material Plane and the Inner Planes are vortices, which are portals that unattended, inanimate objects can pass through. These are usually formed between places on the material plane that shares a strong resemblance between the Plane it connects to. For example, a vortex to the Elemtal Plane of Fire might be in a volcano. In this world, they are also connected via leylines, but these do not allow inter planar travel (to my understanding). There are three main Transitory Planes, the Plane of Shadow, the Etherial Plane, and the Astral Plane. The Etherial Plane and Shadow Plane i covered before, and in most settings, are primarily used for travel on the Material Plane. The third is the Astral Plane which resembles nothing so much as whiteness as far as the eye can see (think loading program from the Matrix). It is connected to every plane, and every inter planar portal passes through it, with the exception of planes that are 'touching' like the Material Plane and the Etherial and Shadow Planes (which are not connected). the Astral Plane is where spirits go on the way to the afterlife, and it is the graveyard of dead gods. Planar portals look like tornadoes from here. The Outer Planes are the homes of the gods and the resting places of the dead. They are typically alignment based, and are arranged in a big ring with the alignment changing slightly from one to the next. True neutral, called the Outlands, is in the center and is connected to all of them. None of them are directly connected, all the portals pass through the Astral Plane. This is where the name "Great Wheel" come from. there we go, no big words or confusing terms. it would be easier if i could draw pictures.
Leaves 07-03-03, 07:31 PM	Everything that nick# said is great, except that the bodies of dead gods are on the Astral, and I think the pathways followed by dead souls pass that way, too. Probably just a simple mistake. Oh, and it's Ethereal. http://www.geocities.com/kalatash/hydrasmilie.txt
nick012000 07-03-03, 08:20 PM	yes, well, i can be forgiven fo making a spelling mistake if i carryed it through the whole thing. edited the post to fix the Astral-Ethereal mixup in 1 statement.
Dream Spinner 07-04-03, 02:03 PM	Oh, but that's just the standard, regular D&D system of planes. Here's what I'm thinking: The Material Plane is very large, but not infinitely so. It constantly expands, but there is an edge. At this edge, passing through it rips you apart at a molecular and ethereal level, sending your atoms across the planes and shredding your soul into oblivion. The Material Plane is the most dominant of the planes, as it is the largest of them all. Overlapping the vacuum around each world with sentient beings on them are small planes. Overlapping all of the planes is the Astral Plane, where astral beings exist and "roads" form connecting planes. Beings walking from plane to plane zip aloung these "roads". The planes floating around the worlds are the homes of the divine, the underworlds of the religions, and a plane for those with no place to go after death. First of these planes are the several that are created from the faith of the people as divine homes for the gods. For example, if the Ancient Greeks were to reside on our world, with their faith creating their gods, it also creates a plane for the gods. As they imagine their gods to live on the mythical Mt. Olympus (not the real one), the plane would have definite borders and would be comprised of an atmosphere and a huge mountain that has a flat top. On this top are the palaces of the gods. From each of these divine home-planes exist several astral "roads" that connect to each of the home-temples of the gods, which are the mortal homes of the gods. Because one god would probably never go to another god's home-temple, each god pretty much has his or her own private "road" to the material world. This way, gods from different pantheons that wish to interact would have to go onto the Material Plane. If a religion comes up with an underworld, that becomes its own plane. This plane is connected to the Material Plane and/or the corresponding divine home-plane in whatever way the religion thinks of it. So, if the religion says that you die anywhere, then you'll float away into a tunnel that leads to your eternal paradise/punishment, the road from this underworld would take on the features of a tunnel and the opening would expand across the entire world. Upon death, the "road" attracts your soul into the opening and in you go into the tunnel. Death outside of the world would either result in your soul drifting across the plane it was on until someone saves it and drops it off. The last plane is created for the home of the souls of those with no devotion to the existing gods. Atheists and agnostics come here. As more of these souls come, the plane shapes itself to fit the souls. For example, the fire-drow pretty much are agnostic and will float here upon death. Soon, there would be a fiery hellish part set aside for the fire-drow souls. Any natural species that rise up here are commonly called "demons", but they vary from good to evil just as much as humans do. These "demons" tend to be chaotic. So, imagine a big plane expanding in all directions all the time, with many stars, planets, meteors, etc. and around some of these planets float planes for the divine to live on or the dead to go to.
WizO_Iyala 07-04-03, 05:34 PM	Ow :( my head hurts already. I know I'm being thick about this but I'm too much of a scientist to make sense of this straight off. Could someone answer me a few questions? Are planes flat? Are they very important to D&D? would an average peasant be aware of different planes? Would a Wizard be a aware of planes? Would anyone be aware of planes or is this a technical way the world is arranged and it comes out looking like our world? Do all D&D worlds have different planes? What parts of them are optional and what parts get cutomised? If they're optional, what benefit is there to our world in using them? I'm not trying to sound negative or suggest we shouldn't have planes, I'm just trying to visualise it and think, if I'm standing in our world, what impact do the different planes have upon me? My biggest problem is understanding why these areas are seperated out into different planes rather than just happening in different places. I also just can't get my head around the more faith-based aspects of this as I seem to be understanding it. But I'm trying :)
nick012000 07-04-03, 10:48 PM	Damn it! I had all the anwers to your questions, Iyala, and then i accidentally deleted them all! Some planes are flat, others aren't. They are of moderate importance in DnD. The vast majority of camaigns are set in the Prime Material Plane, though. It depends on the campaign. The average peasant wouldn't know about the, the average wizard probably would. Wizards, sorcerors, clerics, and the like would probably be aware of the plane, not sure what you mean by the second part. Can you please rephrase the question? All the parts are optional, all of them can be customized, but think about the implications of removing them before you do so. For example, if you removed the Outer Planes, where do gods live, and where do the spirits of the dead go? Upon the typical person, on the material plane, not much effect. if your on the plane of fire, 20d6 fire damage a round (i think). They are different planes because they have different laws of physics. For example, on the Elemental Plane of Air, you can choose which direction you are effected by gravity in. They are also usually infinitely big.
Dream Spinner 07-05-03, 12:48 AM	These planes are separated because each plane serves a different purpose or has a different set of laws of physics, like nick said. The planes are separate because they simply shouldn't be together. For example, we wouldn't want some Demortali digging aloung and then, suddenly drop down into the middle of a hell-type of place. Or a bird flies up and (bump!) bumps its head against the bottom of a god's throne. You shouldn't be able to go out looking to pick a bunch of daisies for your mother and stumble, and oh my goodness! you're in the Elysian Fields, the Greek paradise for dead heroes and other select people the gods found worthy (like their mistresses while they were alive :P ). (That may still happen, you might stumble across something like a magick rune, and get transported to that plane, but this would be a very rare thing.) Do you get why planes are separate? There isn't a real solid reason (other than the different set of laws of physics), but if you think about it, it makes sense.
WizO_Iyala 07-05-03, 07:53 PM	See I tend to think of those things as all being in the same place just much further away. My serious problem with this issue is that I actually can't get my head around the idea that spirits need a place to go, or that gods need a place to exist. I tend to think of this as utterly insubstantial stuff that doesn't need phsical locations. I'm really trying to come to terms with it though and I do realise this is pretty much a problem in my head rather than anything else :)
Dream Spinner 07-05-03, 10:09 PM	To add more to your head, remember that the Astral Plane overlaps all of the planes. The Astral Plane's main purpose is that it creates the "roads" for planeswalkers, etc. to walk across. The Astral Plane is also very close to all planes, especially the Material. Astral stuff can't touch Material stuff, but they could probably see each other at times, sort of like a flickering ghost.
nick012000 07-05-03, 10:15 PM	it's the Etherial that can see the material. other than that, yeah, you're right.
Dream Spinner 07-05-03, 11:37 PM	So, are we using D&D's most common planuar system (where we then have to decide how the gods would fit in), or the system I just described (where there is no ethereal plane, that shadowy plane, elemental planes, or the two positive and negative energies planes)? My idea for the planes was kinda thrown together, so it needs polishing and some official-looking posts to fix it up to about 1/7 the quality of the Manual of the Planes book's info and all that.
Leaves 07-06-03, 03:47 PM	Iyala, in addition to explaining where the souls of the dead go after they die, and where the gods live, planes are also important for a variety of spells in D&D. There are a number of spells that are affected by the planes, especially the transitive planes. The concept of "ethereal-ness" is important for many D&D spells and monsters. It means that you are invisible and can move through objects. The pseudo-scientific explanation for this is that Ethereal means you are on another plane. If there is no Ethereal plane, either these spells do not work, or we need to come up with another explanation. Dream Spinner, I don't like your system for this reason: discarding the ethereal, shadow and inner planes messes with a lot of spell effects, and should not be done lightly (or wholesale!) Now, Iyala, making the homes of gods and souls part of the material plane is a possibility. That would mean that it is possible to get to "heaven" or "hell" by mundane means, by walking or flying, or building a spaceship, or using the 5th level spell Teleport. If that is the case, it needs to be decided, don't you think? Your words "being in the same place just much further away" and "utterly insubstantial stuff that doesn't need phsical locations" make me think that you don't intend for travel to these places to be possible. If the gods actually exist, the place that they live, by D&D definition, is on a plane. It doesn't have to be possible to travel there, it could be something that just shows up in myths and legends, but if it exists, it's a plane. I think that the average peasant would know as much about the planes as the average peasant in ancient Greece knew about Hades, Mt. Olympus, and the Elysian fields. Since we have religion on our world, I think it is safe to say that priests have told people what happens to them after they die, and what the name of the home of the gods is. If there is any truth in those explanations (and they are not actual places you can walk to), we have planes. I think it is important to decide whether each religion has it's own separate group of planes, or whether they fit into some universal structure. [I like order and symmetry, so I argue for universal structure] The elemental nature of the world means that we might want to use elemental planes. It's possible that making the leylines into a plane might work for some of the effects we want them to have. For example, someone said that maybe magical travel is possible using the leylines. We could say the leylines are a plane and that you can use them for fast travel using a spell similar to Shadow Walk. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafnutz.txt
WizO_Iyala 07-06-03, 06:48 PM	Thank you leaves :D I begin to get the importance of it now :D My big problem is that out of all the worlds I've ever written stories in, none of them have had gods that actually exist in a physical sense. One world had avatars of those gods but that's about as far s it went. The gods have always been concepts, concepts with power and followers and strength but never actual physical presence. Neither am I used to there being any sort of heaven r hell in the sense of physicaly travelling there. When I start to think of it in the context of spells I can get my head around it a little more. I think it'll be interesting to try and write using such a concept :)
WizO_Iyala 07-06-03, 06:54 PM	Though I'm going to vote tright now that we don't even attempt to mirror this in Magic. Shadow has pretty much been there and done that and we don't want a re-run of that imo. Not to mention the fact that planes in general totally contradict the MTG planes.
Dream Spinner 07-06-03, 10:38 PM	Thanx Leaves, I get the importance of the Ethereal plane now. I still don't know why the Shadow plane is there, though. So, we keep the Inner Planes, the Ethereal Plane, the Astral Plane, the Shadow Plane, and the Material Plane and the Outer Planes we change? Or what?:confused:
Dream Spinner 07-11-03, 02:32 PM	Okay, does nobody have any ideas? Here's a simple, thrown together one (mainly to attract you smarter people so that you can shoot it down and create something increadibly beautiful and perfect): We keep the Material Plane, the Inner Planes, and the (I-forgot-the-name, but-it-means-the-Ethereal, Astral, and-Shadow planes) Planes. And the Outer Planes are the ones created from faith, as in Mt. Olympus in my Greek example. There is obviously something completely better and innovative (I just switched out the regular Outer Planes for new ones), but it takes somebody who's a little better at coming up with planuar system (read: a lot better).
Leaves 07-11-03, 04:13 PM	I can't beleive I forgot to reply to your thread before. I was looking through the Manual of the Planes again, and you really don't need the inner planes (the elemental planes and the energy planes) as much as I thought you did. They can be changed. The Shadow Plane is needed for the spell Shadow Walk and for Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation etc. (Any spell with (shadow) in the descriptor). It is also the home of the Shadow Mastiff, and other monsters. I was thinking that since "shadow" is like a 5th element in the magic system, perhaps we should make the shadow plane similar to the elemental planes. Or the other way around. As it is described in the M of the Planes, the shadow plane is like a dopple material plane, where the features are the same but are strange and twisted. Suppose the elemental planes were the same way: on the plane of Fire everything is burning, on the plane of Water, the features seen in the real world are still there, but they are like standing waves in a huge ocean. On the plane of Earth the world would be like a giant cavern, and the tallest mountains would intersect with a stoney sky. For the outer planes, I don't know. The core cosmology is very alignment-oriented, but I think i'd prefer this cosmology to be less so. Like mount Olympus: all of the gods of the greek pantheon reside there, not because they share alignment, but because they share other characteristics (they are all greek). So there would be a plane for each pantheon: the elven pantheon would have a place, and the orcish pantheon would have a different place, and so on. Maybe they are all on different planes, or maybe they are all different locations on the same, big plane. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafnutz.txt
nick012000 07-11-03, 07:33 PM	well, seeing that the Shadow element represents sudden changes, making it like the normal material plane but twisted would be good.
Leaves 07-12-03, 01:06 AM	Because it could be helpful for understanding and stuff. I was talking before about how the shadow planes and the elemental planes could be like dopple-versions of the material plane. The features and geography would be the same, or similar, but made out of whatever element it was. To illustrate, take a picture of a mundane place, like so: http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/wcp/planematerial.txt In the shadow plane version of this location all of the colors are washed out, leaving shades of grey. The structures are recognizable, but twisted and strange, like in the picture, but even more Tim-Burton-y. Buildings might be in the same location, but in ruins, or they might not be there at all. Mages who use their magic to travel to the plane of shadow can use it as a shortcut, since the plane will bend to their will and in a few minute they can walk miles relative to the material plane. This is very dangerous, since the plane of shadow has lots of nasty twisted creatures living on it. (This is according to the Manual of the Planes, by the way. The following stuff about the elemental planes I made up.) http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/wcp/planeofshadow.txt The Elemental Plane of Fire is pretty easy to explain: everything is like the material plane, except it's all burning. Everything that can burn, burns perpetually without being consumed, the ground is like hot coals, the sky is filled with acrid smoke, and waterways are filled with glowing lava. I can't imagine why you'd want to visit, but mages could use summoning spells to call the native creatures of the plane of fire into battle. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/wcp/planeoffire.txt The Elemental Plane of Water is a vast ocean. Buildings and other features are made of water, like standing waves, and the whole surface heaves with swells like the surface of a sea. The water glows slightly, giving the plane light (there are no sun, moon, or stars). Mages can use the plane of water for fast travel, too, so long as they brought a boat. Sailing over a mountain range is usual faster than walking across it. Travel on the plane of water is relatively safe, so long as you don't drown or get eaten by one of the 1000 foot long sea monsters. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/wcp/planeofwater.txt On the Elemental Plane of Earth, even the surface world is like a cavern, since the sky is replaced with a ceiling of stone. This is a world of dark and stillness. Travellers here are always at risk of attracting the attention of some of the powerful residents of the plane, who hunt down interlopers for food, for fun, or simply to restore the disturbed stillness. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/wcp/planeofearth.txt The Elemental Plane of Air... would be all air-like, I guess. I'm out of ideas. Either the bits of land would be like islands of stone floating in an endless sky, or else the land would be there, but misty and insubstantial. The second option was easier to render, so. Naturally, if you can fly, travel on the plane of air is a breeze. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/wcp/planeofair.txt This looks a lot like what the Ethereal Plane is supposed to look like, come to think. I guess that if we wanted to, we could combine the Plane of Air and the Ethereal Plane. Comments?
TolarianFlare 07-12-03, 01:45 AM	So in a sense the Material plane is a mixture of all these planes yet seperate? It seems to me that the Elemental planes are "components" in a loose meaning of the sense of the Material plane but they are totally or mainly made of their element and its embodied characteristics, am I right?
Dream Spinner 07-12-03, 10:59 PM	I like Tolarian Flare's explanation Leaves, I can't see your pics, but I really want to. It might be my prob, I'll check. Shadow Plane: Okay, but since Shadow isn't exactly decay, there could be woods that have thrived into huge forests with bigger-than-redwood trees, or have vanished into a desert. The sun would give off darkness, banishing away all the light that is there at night. (Normally, light banishes away darkness.) Zombies smell pleasant, caves replaced by a bulging out off the side of a cliff. Fire Plane: Water wouldn't be lava, lava is molten rock. The water would be liquid fire. I have to think a little on that. Water Plane: I imagine everything is liquid, shaped into whatever it is on the Material Plane. Fire would be a strange type of icy-mist. Instead of burning things away, it sort of freeze-vaporize things that it absorbs into it. The air is saturated with water constantly (horrible humidity) and it rains almost nonstop. The sun is a ball of ice that seems to contain a small light within it, that is refracted and reflected and all that out onto the world, covering it with a wavering rainbow-y light. The sky is like looking up onto the surface of water from below, partially why the sun's light is wavering. The feeling is mystical and awe-inspiring. If it weren't so dangerous, bards, other artists, and people who love beautiful natural effects would come here all the time. All I have time for.
Dream Spinner 07-13-03, 01:06 AM	I saw your pics. Neat effects, though not exactly as extremely to one element like you said. Earth Plane: I like the surface is really underground thing. But I don't think earth is only rocks, it's also plants. Maybe a lot of growth too? Air Plane: I think mist is too water-aligned for an Air Plane. (Air Plane? Airplane? Okay....) Everything is solidified air? (Water is liquid air in that case.) That means everything is kinda transparent, if not completely. Or, I don't know.
nick012000 07-13-03, 01:20 AM	Elemental Plane ofAir: everything is normal and is built on floating rocks.
Leaves 07-13-03, 01:22 AM	Originally posted by Dream Spinner Earth Plane: I like the surface is really underground thing. But I don't think earth is only rocks, it's also plants. Maybe a lot of growth too? See, that's a problem to be worked out. In D&D, Earth is strictly rocks. The D&D elemental plane of earth is filled with stone, with only small caverns and narrow tunnels through it. D&D earth elementals are like walking statues. Whereas, in Magic, earth is associated with green is associated with plants. In D&D, plants are considered to be a mixture of all the elements, no more associated with one than with any other. The two ideas are so different, we need to decide choose one. Also, I think that the elemental planes are all stagnant and unchanging without the influence of shadow, which is the impetus as well as the result of change. Like the plane of fire burns and never stops burning, and never started burning, because without the influence of shadow, it can never change. If the plane of earth is a plane of growth, it would be constantly changing, and therefore under shadow's influence. Air Plane: I think mist is too water-aligned for an Air Plane. (Air Plane? Airplane? Okay....) Everything is solidified air? (Water is liquid air in that case.) That means everything is kinda transparent, if not completely. Or, I don't know. I didn't mean mist literally. I would be happy just with a plane only of air, an endless sky, but then how do you represent how it relates to the material plane? I don't know, either.
Dream Spinner 07-13-03, 02:00 AM	Originally posted by nick012000 Elemental Plane ofAir: everything is normal and is built on floating rocks. Suggestion or current fact? Leaves, with the plants, I can see how they can be a mixture of all the elements (except fire, I don't see how that works), plus the Shadow thing is a really good explanation why we couldn't. We still could, though: Plants frozen in time. Besides, there isn't no change in the first place: Elementals moving, dying, being summoned outa there. People arriving. Water going through cycle. With Air Plane: Let's think about how air interacts with the world...OH! How about the world is all air, plain sky, but in the places where solid objects would be, there is just a vacuum where the air avoids. I know it's kinda boring and there's like no way to stand, but it does relate to the real world in a way it actually does, but in an extreme way. That sentence had too many "way"s. I'll keep thinking.
nick012000 07-13-03, 07:49 AM	wow. you have just turned the elemental plane of air from the most hospitable inner plane to the most deadly. congradulations http://www.eldaronline.com/community/YaBBImages/tongue.gif In DnD, the Elemental Plane of Air is an infinite expance of wind, of varying intensity. It has gravity, but creature get to choose what direction it applies in. I don't think inanimate objects are affected. There is the occasional rock with a villiage built onto it, and the occasional free floating building, typically utilizing the gravity to increase the floor space. Leaves: in DnD, earth isn't all stone. there's dirt, metal, and gems in there too.
Leaves 07-13-03, 04:40 PM	Originally posted by Dream Spinner Suggestion or current fact? Leaves, with the plants, I can see how they can be a mixture of all the elements (except fire, I don't see how that works), The reasoning goes, that they absorb fire from the sun, and then release fire when they are burned. plus the Shadow thing is a really good explanation why we couldn't. We still could, though: Plants frozen in time. Besides, there isn't no change in the first place: Elementals moving, dying, being summoned outa there. People arriving. Water going through cycle. It all depends on whether plants are made of elemental earth or not. If they are, then it might work. It would be like an earth elemental forming or dying: it's always earth, just in a different shape. But if plantsa aren't elemental earth (if they are a combination of elements) Then plant growth would be earth changing into something else. Besides, if the world is underground, how do the plants grow without sunlight? With Air Plane: Let's think about how air interacts with the world...OH! How about the world is all air, plain sky, but in the places where solid objects would be, there is just a vacuum where the air avoids. I know it's kinda boring and there's like no way to stand, but it does relate to the real world in a way it actually does, but in an extreme way. An interesting idea. wow. you have just turned the elemental plane of air from the most hospitable inner plane to the most deadly. congradulations It's not that hospitable. The way it is now, if you can't fly, you start falling, and you keep falling until you die of dehydration and starvation, or until you slam into a random bit of rock at high velocity. In Dream Spinner's idea, you are fine if you can fly, too. Death is just a lot more sudden if you can't fly http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafwink.txt I'd imagine there are a few floating rocks for perching on, as well. It would just be too boring if there weren't.
nick012000 07-13-03, 08:26 PM	well, only if you don't know what you're doing. if you do, you will reverse gravity so that it will slow you down before you hit that rock, and then make that rock down once you either touch it, or are a couple feet away from it.
Dream Spinner 07-13-03, 08:45 PM	Leaves: I guess that makes a sense. sort of, kind of, a little. And with the plants growing without sunlight, they don't. They grow with natural light substitutes (100% UV ray-free!) like glowing rocks. But okay, you win. Nick012000: Do you suggest we just keep the Plane of Air as is? And, the Leaves, your question before: No, I don't think the Plane of Air should count as the Etereal one as well. About the Etereal Plane, I had this idea for a god (currently a human one) who's the god of shadows, silence, and such and instead of clerics being his main "people", monks are. These monks have the ability to send their souls into the Ethereal Plane while turning their bodies into a vapor-like smoke thing. The smoke-stuff reassembles into a body a short distance away (Max: 5 meters about) and pulls the soul back into her from the Etereal Plane. All this takes like a second. This would work, right?
Leaves 07-15-03, 09:51 PM	Originally posted by Dream Spinner But okay, you win. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafsad.txt Awww, it's not a competition. And, the Leaves, your question before: No, I don't think the Plane of Air should count as the Etereal one as well. About the Etereal Plane, I had this idea for a god (currently a human one) who's the god of shadows, silence, and such and instead of clerics being his main "people", monks are. These monks have the ability to send their souls into the Ethereal Plane while turning their bodies into a vapor-like smoke thing. The smoke-stuff reassembles into a body a short distance away (Max: 5 meters about) and pulls the soul back into her from the Etereal Plane. All this takes like a second. This would work, right? It sounds like you are describing something like a combination of the spells/abilities Blink and Gaseous Form So, yes, there is a precedent, and it should work fine! http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafsmile.txt It sounds like a perfect idea for a prestige class, which is essentially a class reserved for characters who have a little experience. A follower of this god would start training as a monk, perhaps also studying as a cleric ofr a while, and then after a few years would be inducted into the Cleric-Monks of _blank_, and gain the ability to smoke-jump, or whatever you call it.
Dream Spinner 07-16-03, 12:36 AM	I know. Just saying you're right. Okay, good, cuz I've already used it in my story taking place on our world (making up undecided things aloung the way). You may be able to tell I got the smoky-blink from X2. I loved Nightcrawler's scene in the White House.
nick012000 07-16-03, 04:59 AM	Elemental Plane of Air: yes. because the various planes are simply filled with their various elements or alignments, they are filled with the idea of thir alignments and elements. your idea removed the idea from considerable portions of the plane. plus, it would be impossible to tell if you're going to hit an area of vacuum. we could, for example, put cities of forests on 1 great big huge rock (each), and put your isolated house in the countryside loating in mid-air, etc. while the physical locations of the objects would be different, they would somewhat resemble their material counterparts. and now a question. because we are going to make the elemental planes similar to the material are we going to use the rules for disturbing images for the elemental planes?
Dream Spinner 07-16-03, 02:59 PM	Okay. And to the disturbing images, I don't know the stuff for it, but I'm thinking yes. Seeing your childhood home on fire, or warped in some way, would be kind of disturbing. But if it's possible, the disturbing image effect would only take place if the image is connected to the player in some way (home, local park, where she first met her love, etc.). Some of the above might not make sense as I don't know what the rules for disturbing images are.
Leaves 07-16-03, 03:25 PM	That's basically how it works on the Shadow plane: When you are in a familiar area, you have to succeed at a Will save (a die roll) or you become disturbed by seeing a familitar place in ruins, or even a shadow-version of someone you know. There's something to consider: are their elemental versions of people on the elemental planes? There's some interesting plot hooks, and there are already some D&D rules for making them, so no worries there. A note: the elemental elves only would have elemental/shadow versions on their respective plane, since they are so strongly aligned, and shadow/elemental mages, too. I'd like to emphasise that I don't think every building and object is replicated on the planes. Especially for the plane of Air, to which solid matter is anathema, only major landmarks should be reproduced. If you just throw up a little shack, it isn't immediately replicated on all of the elemental planes. Idea: Somewhere in the world, there is a Temple of the Elements, a huge castle-complex that is replicated on all the elemental planes, but not on the material plane.
Dream Spinner 07-16-03, 10:22 PM	For the replicated things, that makes some sense, and some...un-sense, um...For the replicated things, that makes some sense, but there are a few problems with that. First off, since the planes are so warped, people's lives are completely changed by that. The planes may start out semi-mirror images, but after awhile, the little changes build up and after centuries, maybe even millenia, the world would be completely different. Plus, unique creatures to planes can change things as well. A shadow beast kills the king that lives for another 3 decades and resolves the great War of Tulips. But, contradicting that is if we work the planes correctly, this could work. For example, a water mage would be a master at liquid fire on the fire plane, lava on the earth plane, a mist sort of thing on the air plane (:P), and tainted(?) water on the shadow plane. And for people. one idea I had was that when a person travels to an elemental plane, he/she replaces his/her elemental self, ejecting the elemental him/her into the Material Plane. This would also make sense because if the things are mirrored, the elemental version would also be casting a portal spell or something. For the Temple, I like. A different version of that: The temple has different rooms and halls and parts of rooms dedicated to different elements. Only these rooms, halls, parts of rooms appear on the elemental plane. The rest is gone. Or the rest is replaced by the, for example, fire version of water, air, earth, and shadow.
Dream Spinner 07-22-03, 02:56 AM	I have a question/idea about the leylines: Do we know where they come from? I have a small idea which may or may not work. What if the elemental planes overlapped the material one and where the two had a connection, the energy of the elemental plane would leak through and form leylines. So, like a connection between the material and the water planes would be like where there's a nice big river. The two is "connected" in a way there, so energy from the water plane leaks out, creating a leyline. But after first thinking of it, I realize it wouldn't work. First because why would the energy spill out in a line? Also because that's a lot of planes overlapping the Material one. And some other reasons. Ignore this.
nick012000 07-22-03, 06:21 AM	i had the same thought. there already are vortices, maye make leylines weakings in the fabric of reality between them, so that the elemental nature leaks out.
Leaves 08-06-03, 11:49 PM	Idea for a monster. This could go in the underdark thread, but since it is related very strongly to the planes, and nothing about the planes is 100% decided, I'm putting it here for consideration: Rock-borer (known in other languages as tunneling worms, Doafmeds, yellow-bone worms, sulfur snakes, etc. ) The rock-borer is a gigantic worm-like animal that lives in the Underdark. It averages 5 feet wide and 40 feet or more long, but especially large, ancient specimens can be 15 feet wide. Rock-borers have very large mouths, as wide as their body. They are rare, but are well-known among underdark cultures because they are one of the more common tunnel-creating monsters. Rock-borers chew through rock in search of the sulfur-containing compounds from which they derive nourishment. In the process, they riddle the rock with 5 to 15 foot wide tunnels. However, one of the poorly-understood aspects of the rock-borer is that the rock they swallow is not digested, but is transported to another plane. Just behind the rock-borer's jaws is a planar portal. The rock ends up in archs and columns of stone in the endless sky of the elemental plane of air. These stone causeways have long been used as roads for non-flying visitors to the elemental plane of air, most of whom are unaware that the structures originated in the jaws of rock-borers. Nobody knows whether the rock-borer is a naturally evolved creature, or if they were created for some obscure purpose. Judging by the number of tunnels in the underdark, and the number of stone causeways in some areas of the elemental plane of air, they have been steadily eating away for quite a long time.
nick012000 08-07-03, 02:58 AM	Is therte any links to Sigil in this world?
Galen 08-07-03, 04:07 AM	Originally posted by Leaves Idea for a monster. This could go in the underdark thread, but since it is related very strongly to the planes, and nothing about the planes is 100% decided, I'm putting it here for consideration: Rock-borer (known in other languages as tunneling worms, Doafmeds, yellow-bone worms, sulfur snakes, etc. ) The rock-borer is a gigantic worm-like animal that lives in the Underdark. It averages 5 feet wide and 40 feet or more long, but especially large, ancient specimens can be 15 feet wide. Rock-borers have very large mouths, as wide as their body. They are rare, but are well-known among underdark cultures because they are one of the more common tunnel-creating monsters. Rock-borers chew through rock in search of the sulfur-containing compounds from which they derive nourishment. In the process, they riddle the rock with 5 to 15 foot wide tunnels. However, one of the poorly-understood aspects of the rock-borer is that the rock they swallow is not digested, but is transported to another plane. Just behind the rock-borer's jaws is a planar portal. The rock ends up in archs and columns of stone in the endless sky of the elemental plane of air. These stone causeways have long been used as roads for non-flying visitors to the elemental plane of air, most of whom are unaware that the structures originated in the jaws of rock-borers. Nobody knows whether the rock-borer is a naturally evolved creature, or if they were created for some obscure purpose. Judging by the number of tunnels in the underdark, and the number of stone causeways in some areas of the elemental plane of air, they have been steadily eating away for quite a long time. One question, how does it keep itself alive when everything it eats is almost immediately transported to another plane after the things it swallow pass the jaw?
Leaves 08-07-03, 04:39 AM	Magic. . . . Joking ;) My intention was that it selectively sorted out the things it wanted to eat, and sent everything else off to plane of Air. The effect could be magical (as in, the portal selectively sorts out the inedible rock) or more anatomical, like a speciallized mouthpart that collected the food and directed it into the real digestive tract before it could pass through the planar portal. I'll point out that I certainly don't expect a rock-borer to be very fast! Especially when it is moving through a region with lots of "food", minerals it wants to eat. You can imagine, for instance, it might "eat" away a few inches of rock into the "planar mouth" then back up a little, gnaw away at all the food that has been exposed, swallow it into its real digestive system, then repeat. Ad infinitum. For centuries. Re Sigil: An interesting idea, but off the top of my head I wouldn't think so. To have access to Sigil, wouldn't that obviously put this world into the Great Wheel cosmology? And give all the deities, let alone other cultures and races, access to this world? Planescape is cool, and all, but I don't like the idea of connecting this world to so much earlier material. I like the idea of developing this world in isolation, so to speak. Forgotten Realms has already been severed from Sigil (so I understand) so it is perfectly natural that this world be, too. Also, if we were to say that the world is automatically connected to everything in the D&D universe, that wouldn't be fair to the Magic: TG folks. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/twocents.txt
nick012000 08-07-03, 05:01 AM	well, the MotP says that the Plane of Shadow connects to alternate cosmologies, so the connection could be via the Plane of Shadow.
Galen 08-07-03, 05:10 AM	Originally posted by Leaves My intention was that it selectively sorted out the things it wanted to eat, and sent everything else off to plane of Air. The effect could be magical (as in, the portal selectively sorts out the inedible rock) or more anatomical, like a speciallized mouthpart that collected the food and directed it into the real digestive tract before it could pass through the planar portal. I'll point out that I certainly don't expect a rock-borer to be very fast! Especially when it is moving through a region with lots of "food", minerals it wants to eat. You can imagine, for instance, it might "eat" away a few inches of rock into the "planar mouth" then back up a little, gnaw away at all the food that has been exposed, swallow it into its real digestive system, then repeat. Ad infinitum. For centuries. That alone makes your creature artificially made then. For that creature to acquire such powerful magic and to have it when it potentially has no use to itself means someone transplant/grafted it to them for their own benefit. 2 possible ones comes to mind: 1) The holes the wurms leave in their wake are used as transport for the subterrainian beings 2) The minerals/rocks transported from where the wurms took them are used for building and/or scavenged for useful ore.
erchamion81 08-07-03, 09:15 AM	If I might jump in, I don't see why there is a problem relating the M:tg plane system and the D&D one. Perhaps I don't understand the D&D system well enough. In the M:tg system of planes, a universe with it's collection of galaxies, stars, planets is one plane. If, for example, the residents of a particular plane were to invent interplanetary travel, they still would not be able to reach another plane in that manner. So, in essence, a Plane is the same thing as a Universe, which is why we generally refer to the Magic system of worlds as a Multiverse. How does the Universe concept work in D&D? It seems to me that the collection of D&D style planes that you have described could be localized to one universe. So each M:tg plane would have it's associated elemental, ethereal, etc D&D style planes. In other words, the world we are creating is just one of the many universes in the M:tg Multiverse. There is already a precedent for having an ethereal plane in Magic. The Shadow creatures from Tempest block fit the bill pretty well. (See: Soltari Emissary, Dauthi Embrace, etc.) It's not that farfetched to simply add on a few other relatively inaccessible areas in the same vein.
Leaves 08-07-03, 06:18 PM	It is less the D&D system of planes that I am concerned with, but the Planescape system. Sigil originated in Planescape, so I worry that bringing it in brings in everything else having to do with Planescape. I'll try to explain what I understand about Planescape. I never played Planescape, I just gleaned this from online fansites and comments people have made on these messageboards. If somebody else knows more about Planescape, please feel free to correct me! Back when Dungeons and Dragons was 2nd edition, and was owned by TSR, TSR had a lot of campaign settings they were producing material for. Each campaign setting is roughly equivalent to a Magic plane: it's a whole world, theoretically a whole universe. Example campaign settings are Forgotten Realms (Faerun) and Greyhawk (Oerth). Somebody at TSR got the idea that they should do something to tie all of the campaign settings together. Their solution was Planescape. In the Planescape cosmology, each campaign settings' Material Plane was a separate, distinct "crystal sphere." Each crystal sphere was like a Magic Plane; travelling around in a spaceship wouldn't get you from one to another. But once you travelled out of the crystal sphere onto the elemental planes or the outer planes, they were all connected. A wizard travelling from Faerun to the Elemental Plane of Water could bump into a wizard travelling from Oerth. You didn't even have to be very powerful to travel like that, in some cases a completely non-magical person could get out of a crystal sphere just by finding the right portal. Furthurmore, Planescape had the Great Wheel cosmology. The Outer Planes (where the gods live) were arranged by alignment in a circle. On the Great Wheel, the gods from all the campaign settings intermingled. Evil gods lived together in the Abyss or in Hades, good gods lived together in Celestia. Meaning that gods from Forgotten Realms and from Greyhawk and from, like, the ancient Greek pantheon all interacted with each other. Sigil was the city at the hub of the Great Wheel, a huge cosmopolitan city presided over by a mysterious figure called the Lady of Pain. Sigil was the center of the Planescape setting, where most characters had their home base. In the Planescape mindset/philosophy, it was the #1 most important place, bar none, in the entire Multiverse. One of the objections to the Planescape idea was that you had to make the gods and mythology from different settings fit into the Great Wheel, rather than mold the heavenly/hellish domains to suit the character of the gods of each setting. In Forgotten Realms 3E under Wizards, they decided to make a new cosmology instead of the Great Wheel, one that makes sense for Forgotten Realms gods. What I don't like about the Great Wheel for this project is that it is all so rigidly defined. The Great Wheel, the inner planes, the crystal spheres, and the astral plane, far realm, etc, was supposed to be all there was in Planescape. Nothing else. Everything was supposed to fit into the system somewhere. I think that for a community project like this, something more open-ended would be better. That's kinda why nick012000's comment about Sigil threw me for a loop. If he was talking about Planescape-setting Sigil, connecting the world to Sigil would mean connecting it to everything. I don't think we should be saying, "Yes, absolutely positively there is a connection to Sigil." If an individual DM wants to connect this world to other worlds, or a Magic player wants to connect it to Dominaria, they can do that, but I think the default should be that it is seperate and distinct, no more connected to other settings than the Magic planes are connected to each other.
Leaves 08-07-03, 06:35 PM	Originally posted by Galen That alone makes your creature artificially made then. For that creature to acquire such powerful magic and to have it when it potentially has no use to itself means someone transplant/grafted it to them for their own benefit. 2 possible ones comes to mind: 1) The holes the wurms leave in their wake are used as transport for the subterrainian beings 2) The minerals/rocks transported from where the wurms took them are used for building and/or scavenged for useful ore. I can see it happening, but I agree, it is more likely that they were created. I wouldn't think that necessarily means that people living in the Underdark know that they were created, and why/by whom. For instance, suppose they were created by people from the elemental plane of air (your option 2). The people of the Underdark would see the wurms, and the tunnels they make, but they don't necessarily have any detailed knowledge about the plane of air, so they might not even know about that connection. Meanwhile, people on the elemental plane of air see the roads created by the wurms, but they never see the creatures. If they found a place where the wurm was eating, they would just see the rock materializing in thin air, because the wurm was on another plane. They would assume that it was just a natural phenomenon. Cool and mysterious, IMO. In the meantime, the tunnels created in the Underdark are useful for us for routes that people of the Underdark can travel, places they can live. The stone roads on the elemental plane of air are useful if you want to have adventures and civilizations there with people who can't fly. We can say that the rock-borers have not spread throughout the whole world, so there are some places with no "Underdark" extensive system of tunnels, and places where the elemental plane of air is empty sky. Anywy, that's my idea. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafcool.txt
Obsidianjaerc 08-09-03, 06:55 PM	Okay I know how we can both be connected to Sigil and the Great Wheel , in addition to Mt:G in adddition to anything else we can think of. Okay now bear with me. On every plane/planet their in the entire Ultraverse ( Coining a new term here. it means EVERYTHING not just the multiverse but a multiverse of multiverses if you get the drift) there is a door ( or in a place with no doors a gateway of some sort. This door when opened instatly conects to The Great Corridor. In this a place that no magic , psionics , of advanced science (physics type stuff) works. The Great Corridor (TGC) - am I abbriviating it just to satisfy the Magic fans? Your call:smirk: - is pure whiteness stretching as far the eye can see in two directions. The other two seem to be only a few thousand feet apart and on that edge are square blocks of blackness.Now the doors on each of the planets/planes connects to one of these black squares. Above each of these black squares is a magical form of meaning that will instantly convey the name and general tempremant of the plane to any being that studies it for more that 6 seconds (1 D&D round). For example I will take the D&D Elemental Plane of Fire. The meaning would be thus: Fire Plane , hot , burning , not hosbitable. ( I will soon make a new thread that rates plane hospitibility (sp?). If you step through a black square you are instantly transported to the corresponding door on the plane/planet. Also while you are in TGC you always remember which door you came out of and how to find your way back to it. Please give me feedback , and questions. and yes before you ask I do use something simialar IMC
Dream Spinner 08-09-03, 07:17 PM	I really like the Rock Borer. One question though: Are they immortal? If not, when they die, do the portal within them stay behind? So, a Rock Borer is killed and there's a huge corpse lying there. It slowly decomposes into nothing but bones (assuming it has any), so somebody walking by would see a huge skeleton and may glimpse parts of the gateway to the Plane of Air sitting there in the skull (assuming it has one). Eventually, it would just be a portal floating there, the way it facing depending on where the head was when it stopped moving. Since the portal moves with the borer, though, that means the collapsing of the skull in the end would bring about the collapse of the portal, right?
Dream Spinner 08-09-03, 07:22 PM	Obsidian, that "The Great Corridor" seems a lot like that hallway of doors in The Matrix Reloaded. ::Looks at you suspiciously:: Anyway, the idea of an entire corridor of doors to each and every plane doesn't seem exactly right to me. This way, anybody could stumble into anywhere. That may seem neat, but I sense people using that as a convenient excuse to drop characters into someplace the DM or writer feels would be more amusing to himself or herself. Plus, the hospitality of a plane varies from being to being, so that can't be determined exactly.
nick012000 08-09-03, 08:10 PM	actually, there alradey is a plane like that, it's called the Infinite Staircase. The entire plane is filled with staircases going off in all directions, just hanging in the void, with the occasional door (planar portal) attached.
Kalatash 08-09-03, 09:23 PM	Actually, the Hallway of Doors sounds more like the Plane of Mirrors for D&D, to me. Perhaps the plants on the Plane of Earth would be in a weird susspended animation, not really needing more than the dirt to keep themselves alive. The Plane of Air is tricky though. Leaves: I really like the Temple of the Elements idea, but instead of it being the same on each elemental plane, it is just on the same spot. Each plane would have it's own version, and if you were somehow able to overlap them, they would form a giant palace type structure. Like an inter-dimensional jig-saw puzzle.
Obsidianjaerc 08-12-03, 12:36 AM	QOUTE Obsidian, that "The Great Corridor" seems a lot like that hallway of doors in The Matrix Reloaded. ::Looks at you suspiciously:: Anyway, the idea of an entire corridor of doors to each and every plane doesn't seem exactly right to me. This way, anybody could stumble into anywhere. That may seem neat, but I sense people using that as a convenient excuse to drop characters into someplace the DM or writer feels would be more amusing to himself or herself. Plus, the hospitality of a plane varies from being to being, so that can't be determined exactly. Have not seen the 2nd Matrix:D hospitality is determined by you as you look at the meaning . Yes the last thing could be a problem I will think about it (input would be appriciated) QOUTE actually, there alradey is a plane like that, it's called the Infinite Staircase. The entire plane is filled with staircases going off in all directions, just hanging in the void, with the occasional door (planar portal) attached. Yes but in our current cosmology we are not connected to the Infinte Staircase QOUTE Actually, the Hallway of Doors sounds more like the Plane of Mirrors for D&D, to me. Yes it kind of does however 1 In our current cosmology we are not connected to the it. 2 There can be more than one mirror connected to each plane. One more thing: I think that the main settings : Toril Forgotten Realms , Oerk Greyhawk , Ravenloft , Dark Sun , etc. should not be connected to TGC. It would still be possible to get to and from them via first TGC and then the Infinte Staircase going from ours to theris or them going to some small plane... then a door to TGC... then ours. Possible but unlikly. Plus we can all :smirk: :mad: :fight!: :nonono: at anyone who uses it inappropraitly. Or we could have a single 2 doors. One going to Sigil and one to the M:tG univere. Of course these would either be VERY well hidden and guarded. Feedback please.
Leaves 08-12-03, 02:10 AM	You know, I coulda sworn I wrote up and posted a reply to this a few days ago. Who knows what hapened to it. Originally posted by Dream Spinner I really like the Rock Borer. One question though: Are they immortal? If not, when they die, do the portal within them stay behind? So, a Rock Borer is killed and there's a huge corpse lying there. It slowly decomposes into nothing but bones (assuming it has any), so somebody walking by would see a huge skeleton and may glimpse parts of the gateway to the Plane of Air sitting there in the skull (assuming it has one). Eventually, it would just be a portal floating there, the way it facing depending on where the head was when it stopped moving. Since the portal moves with the borer, though, that means the collapsing of the skull in the end would bring about the collapse of the portal, right? I hadn't thought about that, but I like some of these ideas. First, yes, I was planning that they have bones. I imagine they are very long lived, perhaps ageless, but I don't think they should be "death-proof." At the very least, put a bunch of spears through one, and it should die. So, what happens to the body? I like the idea that the portal is intrinsically linked to the skull, first, so that the portal wouldn't be left floating around once the rock-borer corpse has disappeared, and second, because if it is linked to the skull, then you ought to be able to pick up the skull and take the portal with you. It would be a very strange artifact: a 5 to 15 foot wide skull, weighing perhaps 100s of pounds (?) with a one-way portal to the elemental Plane of Air in the jaws. Not necessarily useful for most people, but it would make a darn nifty addition to a wizard's collection of magical oddities. . Okay, now regarding Jearc's Great Corridor: It's an intriguing idea, but I'm not sure what place it will have on this board / in this world. It would work excellently as the link between this world and established worlds, or as one of many links (such as the infinite staircase, deep shadow plane, etc). But I think the number and exact nature of links between this world and others is something that will have to be left up to individual DMs and writers, because it has the potential to be very devisive. I'd be interested to see what you come up with, like the description of each WCP plane that you see in the Great Corridor, and maybe a system for determining random exits? You might also post the idea on the Manual of the Planes board, to get feedback on descriptions of other planes.
Dream Spinner 08-12-03, 02:21 AM	Originally posted by Leaves So, what happens to the body? I like the idea that the portal is intrinsically linked to the skull, first, so that the portal wouldn't be left floating around once the rock-borer corpse has disappeared, and second, because if it is linked to the skull, then you ought to be able to pick up the skull and take the portal with you. It would be a very strange artifact: a 5 to 15 foot wide skull, weighing perhaps 100s of pounds (?) with a one-way portal to the elemental Plane of Air in the jaws. Not necessarily useful for most people, but it would make a darn nifty addition to a wizard's collection of magical oddities. A huge beast jumps at a wizard, who uses his magic to quickly summon the skull from his collection between him and the beast and opens the jaw. The beast vanishes into the Elemental Plane of Air, possibly onto the road the borer was making before it died. Of course, there are probably better ways to deal with the beast, but I like it anyway. :D
Obsidianjaerc 08-12-03, 05:14 PM	Yes I should put it on MotP board thanks Leaves. Anyway talking about the Rock Borer. What if one was eaten by the other? Or it ate someone with a Bag of Holding or something. Wouldn`t that spell internal combustion/ instant doom?( Because a portal within a portal usaualy [ but not always] really meses stuff up.) Also we might want to draw up some stats for The Rock Borer on the MM board.
Leaves 08-12-03, 06:29 PM	DreamSpinner: :rofl: Jaerc: I think the Bag-of-Holding + Portable Hole problem has to do with the fact that they are both interdimensional spaces. I think you can take a Bag of Holding through a portal without it exploding. If not, yeah, big explosions are cool, too. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafmwahaha.txt I was thinking about rock-borer combat: When you think about it, the rock-borer spends most of its time with its head encased in solid rock, so it doesn't often go into combat able to bite at its enemies. It does, however, need some protection when people sneak up behind it! I was thinking that rock-borers could have long, spiked tails, and they swing them around at people who sneak up behind them, like a stegosaurus. They would need to be able to "see" behind them. I think it would be a little too weird giving them eyes around their rear ends: What do you think about tremorsense? (The ability to sense the location of vibrations through the ground, like the worms in the Tremors movies.) Plenty of natural armor, too. http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafcool.txt
Obsidianjaerc 08-13-03, 10:38 PM	Jaerc: I think the Bag-of-Holding + Portable Hole problem has to do with the fact that they are both interdimensional spaces. I think you can take a Bag of Holding through a portal without it exploding. If not, yeah, big explosions are cool, too. ------------------------------ Yeah you are correct I dont know what I was thinking. Anyway what if one got transported to the Elemtal Plane of Air?
nick012000 08-14-03, 07:10 AM	Then you'de have a bag of holding that's falling for a very long time.
Obsidianjaerc 08-24-03, 01:53 PM	This is to help the D&D players understand M:TG I myself am a D&D player and do not understand M:TG. This has helped me immensly. This deserves to be posted here for it touchs on the planes and perhaps it will clear things up. If you want more of this look to the d20 Fantasy Thinktank Board: Dominara d20 : "The world of magic for your favorite system" thread LookHERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90637) the info.
Mak 08-26-03, 04:42 AM	Hello. Mind if I join in? It would be nice if we could refer to Planescape's new organization of planes, so we could consider it. That being said, I am of the opinion that the Great Wheel idea tends to restrict the worlds. The attempt to connect everything deprives some worlds of their flavor and meaning. Going up against a god isn't so scary when there are twenty to thirty others around. In settings like Dragonlance, for example, where the gods are of extreme importance, the existence of other planes/worlds has been acknowledged, but these worlds are sparingly used. Why? Because the story suffers. If Takhisis is taking over the world, the more powerful beings can just planeswalk away, taking their loyal followers. The balance of Good, Evil and Neutrality wouldn't just apply to Krynn, it would have to apply to every other world. I think this is why Wotc has pursued a general policy of keeping their worlds separate. Not only is the task of continuity messy, the results aren't quite spectacular. If continuity with other worlds is required, I would prefer the planar system Magic uses, not because of bias(I am a Magic player) but because of simple convenience. Planeswalkers are not gods, although their powers come quite close. Thus there is no attempt to place great importance on their existence and will. They're just plain powerful. The paradigms of D&D can still be applied, but only specifically to certain worlds. A Shadow Plane could be a sister-plane of one world, or a dark mirror of it, and their origins would be linked. Magic's Aether, which, I believe, represents the chaotic spaces between planes, could also serve as an ethereal/spiritual plane which souls pass through when they must move on. An Astral plane could be a sub-plane attached to yet another world. For those settings with heavens and hells, such as Krynn and its Abyss, they could be considered as closely linked planes. From the Magic novels I can see that the Dominarian cultures treat Phyrexia the same way. Gods, on the other hand, would be a little difficult. In Magic, the term "god" is used to refer to any powerful being that demands worship. Thus, on those worlds that have gods, they would simply be the ones in power, no matter what their origins. While this idea takes power and importance away from the D&D gods, it can also be the basis for further exploration of the storyline, instead of just recognizing them as omni- or semiomnipotent. You may notice that I interchange the terms "world" and "plane". I am using the word "world" to refer to an entire setting, and not just a planet. I think this definition is more important and suited to the discussion.
Obsidianjaerc 08-29-03, 05:54 PM	Hi Mak... Not to dampen your spririt but we are not talking about planar sytems just about what/how to build one for The World Creation project. P.S. I am moving my previous post to a different thread.
Leaves 08-30-03, 05:25 PM	I found both Jaerc's and Mak's posts to be very interesting, but yes, they are probably off-topic in this thread. As for how interconnected the WCP world is with other systems, from how I understand it, I'd be willing to say that they are connected as much as MTP planes are connected. It basically requires god-like powers to get from one MTG plane to another? I think that's how much power it should take to get "out." I just don't want us to say that the WCP is "just across the street" from Greyhawk or anything, it should be "really far away." Since we're on a new page, I thought I'd recap a little. The system [/i]I'm[/i] in favor of is one with the Material Plane (the real world) and five elemental planes (Air, Water, Earth, Shadow, and Fire). The elemental planes are dopple versions of the Material plane: you can find the same general features on all the elemental planes as on the material plane, but they are different somehow, in a way that ties them into their own element. For example, a great forest on the Material plane is a forest of stone pillars on the plane of Earth, and a perpetual forest fire on the plane of Fire. There seems to be support for this plan, but it's not too late to weigh in with your own opinion. People seem to support the idea that there are convention D&D versions of the Ethereal and Astral planes, too. There hasn't been much discussion about what D&D calls the "outer planes" which are the homes of the gods, and the locations of the heavens and hells, demons and angels, etc. My personal oppinion is that divine realms, like gods see the "Immortals" thread), are created by people's belief. A single religion could support the existence of one or any number of divine realms, which would be completely seperate from each other unless people believed they were connected. I think it would be best if we don't try to make the divine planes fit into some huge over-arching structure (like the Great Wheel).
Dream Spinner 08-30-03, 05:31 PM	I agree.
nick012000 08-30-03, 07:42 PM	hmmm... perhaps the Outer Planes are just demiplanes that are interconnected to one another and the more worshippers, the bigger the plane is? With some deities from one pantheon sharing a plane, and some individualistic deities having their own?
Leaves 09-01-03, 09:22 PM	Yeah, like that, except I was wondering if maybe the worshipers' belief about the size of the plane influences the actual size. If the religion stated that hell was infinite, for a small religion it would just be pretty big, but for a major religion it would actually go on forever. I think that technically, by the MotP definitions, they would be demiplanes. I don't know what to call them; not outer planes, because they aren't outside anything. Maybe "faith planes" because it's belief that causes them to exist? I definately think that deities from the same panteon can share a plane, and maybe even a plane can be shared between pantheons. For instance, a legendary battlefield between warring pantheons might be a real plane. Or a legendary meeting place, like Common Ground.
Obsidianjaerc 09-02-03, 06:44 PM	Good posts Leaves and Dreamspinner. I agree that by standard MotP definations they would be demiplanes. However I do believe that the planes should stay a fixed size (with perhaps the exception of a few , like a growing wilderness plane thats edge always eludes map-makers;) ). Basically I think that beliefe(sp?) and faith should determine a gods power (to a point) but not the size of their plane. I think that a legendary battlleground or meeting place on the Matierial Plane might spawn a dopple copy of itself as it was in the moment of the momentous event. These would be small ,such as one region (maybe a grove or a lookout rock), these would be rare but would make for an intresting idea.
Leaves 09-03-03, 02:45 PM	I think that would be really cool. Actually, what immediately popped into my head was "haunted." A doppel haunted fortress would be a wicked place to have a dungeon-crawl. The planes shouldn't change size abruptly, but I still think it would be cool to have the god of a once-great but now vanishing religion sitting in a divine realm that is slowly eroding around the edges.
Obsidianjaerc 09-03-03, 05:59 PM	Originally posted by Leaves I think that would be really cool. Actually, what immediately popped into my head was "haunted." A doppel haunted fortress would be a wicked place to have a dungeon-crawl. The planes shouldn't change size abruptly, but I still think it would be cool to have the god of a once-great but now vanishing religion sitting in a divine realm that is slowly eroding around the edges. ------------------------------------ Yeah , the real one was destroyed in some horrendeous act yet it doppled itself for a place for the undead family to live. That would be a great place to play out the 'Dreamscape' adventure. * An adventure by a novic that won some awards about an undead family and their soul-sucking picture* Anyway back on topic what kinds of things would make a place spawn a dopple?
Leaves 09-04-03, 05:13 AM	Perhaps they form when fate is interupted somehow? I'm just rambling, but considering the power of belief in this world, a widely believed prophecy might case a doppel plane if events didn't play out as predicted. Or if events were interupted by some unpredicted event. For example, suppose a moderate-sized city is struck by an asteroid and completely destroyed. Perhaps a doppel version of the city (undestroyed) is created based on every resident's belief that the city was going to go on existing. Powerful shadow magic might also be able to spawn a doppel demiplane.
Obsidianjaerc 09-05-03, 08:04 PM	Good ideas. AHHHH you changed you avatar.:D
gedren 09-16-03, 04:35 PM	I am new to the DnD reality/game creations, but I do have some experience in creating a multi-verse for a particular storyline. Non-physical planes, ie astral, ethereal, would exist in n-dimensions. Depending on the physics of the particular plane, it might or might not be affected by psychic imprints (faith). Elemental planes are physically only their respective elements with life evolving by contortions of spiritual energy. When an elemental plane encounters a material plane (I often use multiple material planes) it creates a pocket reality where all things represented in this reality mirroring the material plane are perverted by the elemental offset. Just my $0.02
Leaves 09-20-03, 11:33 PM	Hi Gedren. No worries about unfamiliarity with D&D; you fit right in. I'm curious about your system for the elemental planes. If you read back earlier in the thread, I think we were discussing a basically similar idea, where the elemental planes would mirror the structure and features of the material plane. But we never came up with a satisfactory answer for what the elemental plane of air would be like. What kind of features would you suggest for an elemental air mirror plane?
gedren 09-21-03, 02:59 PM	The plane of air? All elements (periodic tables and beyond) that exist in the universe would be present in gaseous form. Life forms would be a concentration of the building blocks of life (carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, etc) moving in a coherent pattern. When the elemental plane of air and the (prime) material plane are connected, a splinter world is created as a bridge between planes. These middle worlds would only exist as long as the interplanar gates are open. Mirror splinter of air? Objects and lifeforms represented would be a loose collection of gaseous molecules, dense enough to make solid contact, but with the capacity to disperse into a permeable gas cloud. That's how my system accounts for elemental mirror worlds.