Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Brknlf 03-23-05, 04:21 PM	As evidenced in Shea's (sorry, had to shorten it, the full handle is a lot to type out) summary, there is quite a bit of diversity in suggestions/themes/regions/races for this world. It is almost extreme, but when compared with our world, there is already extreme biodiversity if one is willing to look for it. However, in the suggestions here, everything has a suggestion of being more exaggerated. The world here is indeed a fantastical one and is taking on more fantastical aspects than the average fantasy campaign world perhaps. I merely thought why not agree to say the world has extreme biodiversities. Tall mountain ranges next to dense rainforests on the borders of vast savannahs that lead into unfathomable deserts. At one point, there was some talk about making the world larger than our world – something on the level of 4x the size of our current planet. Obviously this becomes something more than capable of supporting huge amounts of vast areas with infinitely diverse cultures and races. This also ties into the magical concepts that have been in existence. Both the leylines/elemental magical theories and the ambient energy theories that have been discussed. The magical theories really becomes an answer to the concern of how does this world manage to support extreme, exaggerated biodiversities. Be it the ambient energies influence upon the land or even the congregation of leylines in an area, each area is almost magically influenced. Though, in this fantasy world, magic is more of a natural phenomenon than it is sublime or otherworldly even. Likewise, this also goes back to an older thread on gods that discussed having one true god, such as Gaia (which was the suggestion), and other incarnations of deities exist on the premises of sympathetic magic. The idea was put as a large population with belief in a god causes the god to become incarnate. The idea wasn’t delved as a concept so much as it became a discussion on cultural gods for common races (elves and orcs sticking out). Though, taking this idea and tying into the concept that the world and magic exist together naturally, this could also work with the one true God concept. Rationalizing the idea, perhaps every god created could be an incarnation of Gaia (the mother goddess), formed to serve the needs of the worshippers in demand of a certain deity. Like everything I’ve offered, its merely a suggestion and I’m not trying to suggest this be the way of things. This is just something for everyone to consider as they see fit, or ignore it completely.
the_one_true_shea 03-24-05, 01:14 PM	D&D worlds are, oddly enough, fairly realistic. M:tG worlds, however, are far from normal. I am not an expert on the M:tG cosmology but I have heard enough to make that statement. I think part of the theme of this world should be pulling that uber-fantastic of M:tG (planer invasions, bringers of the dawn, some of the legends... whew! ) into a concievable D&D setting. I think that retaining the Gaia Goddes as the "true god" of this world is perfectly elegant. Nothing in D&D says that you need the gods to be "true" gods. Is Mystra a "true" god, not in my opinion. She was a person first. Actually are any of the gods in forgotten realms "true" gods of creation. Are any of them the builders of the world? Or, like dragonlance, were they invited into creation after the fact. More like an angelic host than actual Gods. Massive biodiversity. YEAH, good idea. I really like the hollow world concept. A thought I had when reading about the rings around the planet was they could be the "home of the gods" a physical place for physical dieties to reside. Palaces on the "Roads of Heaven" or something along that line. Back to the hollow world, it seems that the originators of this project were very interested in there being a M:tG Underdark. I think that is a good idea, as well ('specially since I didnt know that none of the M:tG settings had one). But, if there is a hollow world what does that make the Underdark the "in-between-dark"? The astronomical view of this world becomes, as you said, extreem. An inner world the size of, or larger than, earth. A thick crust infested with underdarkians. A surface covered with huge geography that is observed from the rings of the planet by ascended diety-like entities. Perhaps, the surface dwellers are extreemly religious. They can see the gods moving along the rings? They get direct diety interference on a regular basis? The underdark is the realm of rationality: the demortali are very democratic, the Akharen are extreem (organic) socialists, and the Kaburi sound like the ultimate atheist anarchists. Then moving into the center of the world, a place closer to the very heart of the gaian being. Not an incarnate being, the force of creation itself. Far from the power plays of petty "dieties" the world has ... the Kavu Rex?
Brknlf 03-25-05, 12:30 PM	Just for references. The originator of the World Creation Project was Wiz_O Paradox. It might of been discussed amongst board admin, but he is the one who first introduced the idea on the D&D and M:tG Metaboards, to see how much interest there was in such an idea. He never contributed, unless he had done so under an alternate/non-admin handle, The Hollow World was introduced on one of those threads as I recall. I think it was first offered as an alternative to the Underdark concept. Off topic, both are really coined phrases, the Hollow World campaign setting was introduced after the Expert rules came out for Original D&D, the Underdark is a term that was used for the deep cavern ecosystem of Forgotten Realms (I could be entierly wrong, but this is were I recognize both terms from). I say this because, perhaps, it might be interesting to coin a phrase indeginious to this world that is being created (The Shadow Dark, the Deep Shadow, Eternal Dark, Deep Dark, the Shadow Realm, Under World). For now, I'll stick with the common names for easy reference. I do agree, there can be three distinct regions or mantles/crusts of the world that is inhabitied by denizens that express attitudes that reflect the realm in which they dwell. The crust, the Underdark, and the inner-surface of the Hollow World. The crust being under religious influence based on the belief of Gods (who became incarnate by the power of Gaia, or whatever, based on that belief itself). The Underdark believes more in the power of self, but I can well seem them still revering deities of some kind (whether they believe the deities have any influence on the world itself or not doesn't matter). Even in rationality, I think they should still have some sort of faith driven magic. In D&D terms, its called Divine magic, but it seems to be shapping up as sympathetic driven magic (ie, people believe the gods exist so therefore they do). So, based on the belief in self or rationality, the denizens effect some form of faith based magic (Divine power or sympathetic magic or something else entirely new). If such diversity is to be considered between the three crusts/mantles/surface regions, then the inner world or Hollow World should reflect this concept perhaps. If the Underdark represents ultimate rationality, then perhaps the outer surface world could relly reflect both rationality and irrationality (some follow logic, others follow religious faith) and then the inner surface world could follow irrationality. I don't mean a world of chaos, but perhaps one that is far more magical than the surface world itself. This would be a world were magic is a common, everyday occurance. Every sentient being in this world uses magic to the point it seems mundane and the exceptional magic is truly exceptional here (perhaps). It is withdrawn from deities as it is close to the one true god, so beings such as the Kavu Rex (or another name if someone decides on a better one) exit harmonously with the environment for the most part. Other races here (humans, elves, dwarves, the sugggested underdark races, etc.) are really the only alien thing around here (as they originate from the underdark and the outer surface world).
Brknlf 03-25-05, 01:09 PM	Thought I needed to seperate some of the concepts here, so posted two replies. The Kavu Rex (or other name if one is found) didn't interest me when it was introduced. It sounded like merely a suggestion to have large sentient dinosaurs (something like the Saurans from D&D, but much larger). Interesting things actually begin to happen with Nigirimeshi's final post on that thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=107595) . The two things that stick out from the concept of this race in my mind are: 1) Tall lumbering giants and 2) affinity with nature/natural world. This concept almost comes off as LotR's Ents (the treefolk - Treebeard being the one in the movies). Then there is the concept of Ancient Guides /Guardians (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=46809&page=2&pp=30) (This is on the second page of the thread for anyone going to look). Which is suggested as being magically enchanted rocks/minerals to either guide people or guard sites. Recently, we have the concept of the Ithawu trees which could be sentient or have a spirit relative (like a dryad (forest nymph) but more stately like an Oread (mountain nymph)). A final thing I'm introducing into this consideration is the concept of the Extinct Technological Race, ETR (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=54532) , . There is no correlation between these ideas that were submitted to the World Creation Project. However, I think they are all playing along ideas that the original contributors were toying with. Instead of ETR though, I'm going to use the thought of a Lost Advanced Race (LAR). What if there was something more like the 'first race' - a race of gargantuan beings, each one sort of unique. Gaia's first attempt at a sentient race. They do not so much have to be advanced technologically (I think some people are uncomfortable with time travel machines, spaceships, laser guns, nuclear fusion, and the like in a fantasy game), just advanced by standards of the current time frame of the world being developed (highly evolved, highly magicaly, psychic, or something new all together). Instead of rationalizing they are extinct due to some internal conflict, outside forces or something else - why not merely consider that they are a lost race for the most part. Lost in the thought that 99% of the worlds current sentient races do not know about this race or only know that it once existed (in the form of ancient ruins) and do not know why the race has vanished. Once again, introduce the concept of the Ents from LotRs. The Ents from the books only existed in the Fanghorn (an ancient, mysterious, spooky forest). The ideology is that they represent the last remnants of the vast nature which once existed on the world (along with characters like Tom Bombadil in the books). The other races races represent progress. Its a direct reflection of our world, the 'wilds', 'wilderness', or 'fronteirs' all vanashing as human kind progressed through industry and technology. The garganutan reptile beings, the tree spirits, the sentient rock lifeforms, all these could have some relation to this LAR. Created by the race, or being the last of their kind, a dying race even. Or merely a race that was never truly abundant, but is withdrawing to the far reaches of the world as the newer races are begining to spread across the surface. In my original fluff story about the Ithawu (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=62562) , I toyed with the idea of an ancient lost race and the ruins they have left behind. I did mention glowing sigils and such (which could be magic in the ruins or for those into sci-fantasy type RPGs, this could be light eminated from the alien technology left behind), which stemmed from the concept of a lost ancient race (technological or not). Now, the ancient ruins left behind by this lost race could probably be points of great magical influx (lots of ambient energy or convergence of numerous leylines). This could even play into the new topic of Dragonkind (this could be an ancient battle even, for those interested in that sort of stuff,ala Metroid (The Ancient Chozo withdrawing from the Poison from the comming of the Worm)). The ancients are withdrawin from their old ruins, but dragonkind is seeking out these places of power (which makes them even more inaccessible to the newer races as not only are they in the remote wilds, but they are guarded over by ancient guardians and/or possible powerful dragonkind). That's probably off tangent or may be something that doens't fit well with the world, just something to consider.
Tev Loneglade 03-26-05, 02:07 AM	What if there was something more like the 'first race' - a race of gargantuan beings, each one sort of unique. Gaia's first attempt at a sentient race. They do not so much have to be advanced technologically (I think some people are uncomfortable with time travel machines, spaceships, laser guns, nuclear fusion, and the like in a fantasy game), just advanced by standards of the current time frame of the world being developed (highly evolved, highly magicaly, psychic, or something new all together). Instead of rationalizing they are extinct due to some internal conflict, outside forces or something else - why not merely consider that they are a lost race for the most part. Lost in the thought that 99% of the worlds current sentient races do not know about this race or only know that it once existed (in the form of ancient ruins) and do not know why the race has vanished. I really like this idea, so much that I am considering expanding on it some. The only problem I see with it is that it almost reminds me of another setting I know. This 'first race' could be the Legends of the world...great and powerfully advanced beings who once lived, ruled over the world. Their 'internal conflict' could be the first of the Great Wars, and the Fallen Empires of Old are all that remain. I like the fact that this board is all about ideas, but it seems like we're just spinning wheels...just posting random thoughts... I mean, who's to say what sticks of not us? And how are we ever supposed to discover anything unique of this world if it is so EXTREMELY DIVERSIFIED and RANDOM?
the_one_true_shea 03-26-05, 02:44 AM	Ok, LAR... :thinks: What if the LAR were like Brklf suggested, proto-sentient, super-intelligent, and not quite "natural". Unnatural as in non-organic. Pure elemental energy beings. The god-like beings that are worshiped by the surface religions could be transcendant organic life that learned somehow to become of the same substance as the LAR: Pure elemental, indestructable, energy beings. After some untold amount of time, durring which the LAR just sorta played around haphazardly with the phenomenal powers they possesed, they began to simply go to sleep. Without motivation they had no reason beyond curiosity to create, they had no reason, or way, to mate, and the magnitude of their powers made the creation of awesome and unfathomable artifacts (M:tG :rolleyes2: ) literal godling child's play. The Mystical Dragon Ecology I have discuss here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=401048), and the elemental elves (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=52367) could be the second try at sentient life, the meshing of the elemental energy with organic bodies. More successful (still around and actively breeding) but still not satisfactory enough to the world spirit. They have the fear of death and the joys of childbirth, but they are still naturally immortal. Born with the ability and the natural inclination to seek toward "quint-elemental" union, but unable to reach a true LAR-esque state. Gaia does not need to make any sort of "avatarish manifestation" to do this, no "edicts of the world soul" need to occure "in-character". Saying that gaia caused these "waves of sentience" can be seen in the same light that evolutionary biologists say that "earth first tried life on the microbacterial level, then generated more complex multicellular life, and eventually developed highly evolved organ machines we talk to everyday". Gaia is the personification of the world spirit not a manifesting god ala D&D. The Third Wave of sentient life can easily have come about erratically. The shadowrats (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=46809) could be an excelent example of this phenomena occuring in recent times. They were ratlike animals of the underdark but the manipulations of others awakened the species to sentience. The Virix's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=67437) own creation myth of the sun diety creating them from the lesser lizards in the ancient past could be a, much misunderstood, true story. Other races, such as man, could be even more accidental. Perhaps man is just the consequence of monkeys adapting to the lowlevel ambient energy of the leylines that stretch thin between places of true power, where more the more bizzare races generated from. A component of this would be that the ley lines and places of power are themselves the LAR. This concept would be beyond all but the most magically developed mortals of the world. The dieties are mostly transended beings, but certain "elders" could be the last of the living LAR. ( :mymy: I like that "Last of the Living LAR" too bad thats OOC talk :nonono: ) The sun and the moon could be great examples of this. The actions of the elder LAR and the second wave of sentients, both accidentally and intentionally, creates the "third wave" by warping and awakening normal animals into sentience. Throughout the second and third waves the elder LAR would be dissapearing, departing ("once the sun walked the world as though he were an Ithawu like you"), and just plain dissolving into the nothingnes that they are now, and then, wonder of wonders, the faith of their creations accomplishes the one thing these grandios beings could not: the birth of new LAR beings. The Ithawu Tree Spirits, the faithborn gods of orc and man, and the ascendance of members of the flesh born races into divine elemental beings. Perhaps placing the elves into the second wave is too much. Perhaps the gnome are the only race that, as a general rule, has any idea of how this all works. Perhaps having the ETR/LAR be the "original nameless elder dieties" is too far. Like I said at the top of this post, :thinks: and I will continue to do so. O.Y. Brklf Im gonna give the summary a moment before I reformat. I can't bumb it with an edit. So, I figure I'll let a week or two go by, overhaul it, and bump it at the same time with something like a "me and Brklf been talkin" kinda week-in-review post. Any organizational suggestions? Im thinking of ways to make it easier to read.
the_one_true_shea 03-26-05, 03:00 AM	I like the fact that this board is all about ideas, but it seems like we're just spinning wheels...just posting random thoughts... I mean, who's to say what sticks of not us? And how are we ever supposed to discover anything unique of this world if it is so EXTREMELY DIVERSIFIED and RANDOM? The nature of the beast, son. Its sorta like civilization: no one really makes rules. We have to do what seems to be working and hope. I took a stab at some authority by creating the one true summary (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=398059). I tagged some things as approved, but I was really just going on a "this was well recieved, and doesnt really conflict with anything mentality" to make that judgement. If someone posted that they didnt like the idea I tagged it with pending, and if there was a general acceptance of the idea, but differences of opinion that didnt seem resolved, I tagged it with debating. I know I can organize it more rigorously, and plan to, but as to what sticks... well its an evolutionary process. The ideas that mesh with the most other ideas will survive, and the ideas that diverge too far from the core concepts that have been given the most treatement will fade away. The virix is an example of an idea that should not die. Its very well thought out and it is almost completely modular. Really the Virix could be dropped into any champaign world with little difficulty, but here they can serve as a benchmark for what should stick, and a society that we, the developers, could hinge an eventual timeline on. O.Y. That remindes me, Galen! I need to message her, and get her back this way. She does good work.
Brknlf 03-28-05, 10:01 AM	I like the ideas that Shea is getting at. The theme of waves or ages is a common, yet strong, concept in fantasy settings I believe. I like that there is a sort of evolution (or de-evolution) from the first race to the current races. I also like the concept of the faith based religion 'recreating' or 'birthing' new LAR (first race/whatever they end up being called). It creates a nice little 'circle of life' set up. The LAR were created by Gaia, but indeed missed something which lead to them slowly disappearing. The Second generation of races still had magical powers, but on a lesser scale (like the true dragons (the ones born at power places or convergence points)) - however, they had the ability to reproduce in some context. The third generations/wave of races lacks direct magical affinity (but can access magic through spells and/or faith), has the ability to reproduce but also has the power of belief (sympathetic magic). It makes the relationship between 1st race and 3rd wave sort of an ecosystem unto itself. To continue to live or reproduce, the LAR now need the newest races of the world (which are literally many steps removed on an evolutionary scale) due to some strange power they have (that is, the new races believe in the LAR creating some way to sustain them). I really like this idea, so much that I am considering expanding on it some. The only problem I see with it is that it almost reminds me of another setting I know. Actually, a lot of stuff on these boards could probably be found in other campaign/game settings and, certainly, in any number of fantasy worlds (from books, TV, movies, etc.). The thing with the original ETR and this idea (the LAR) is that indeed a lot of fantasy worlds/settings do use the first race concept. Off the top of my head, the Chozo from the metroid games, the Irda/Ogres in Dragonlance, the Patrin/Sartan in the Death Gate Cycle, the Disciples of Aldur from the Belgariad, the Maia from Lord of the Rings (the race Gandalf belongs to) - real world religions even include references to wise, immortal races before mankind (ie, angels for chirtians). The first race is usually something with powers beyond the current civilization (be that magical powers or technological powers) and for some reason, they are almost non-existent to the current civilizations (died out, disappearing, transcended into abberrataional spirits, faded into ruins, etc.). When they are existentet still, they are far removed from current civilizations. In either case, the old race somehow transcend their knowledge to the 'heroes' of the myths to help the hero defeat obsticles. In some cases in anceint ruins and prophecies (the Chozo from Metroid or the races in the Dark Crystal to the gelflings), sometimes they last of the old/first race teaches the hero, who could fulfil some strange prophecy (Gandalf, Belgarath from the Belgariad). They may just part with gifts of knowledge to those who are worthy (usually represented by them finding the lost race - such as the Irda from Dragonlance). Othertimes they only teach the hero enough that they need to know but refuse to divulge all their secret knowledge (angels, the Sartan/Patrin from Deathgate Cycle). The thing is, every fantasty type campaign has some lost race or extinct race (both as DM tools to drive the campaign as mentioned above, or, at the least, to make lost ruins for adventurers to explore (the basis of the entire D&D game)). I think its almost unavoidable, which is why I started discussing the ETR concept again and suggesting a possible change. The goal isn't to avoid making something like this (the old sage who teaches the hero is a few levels below a sacred cow in contemporary fantasy, it was a sacred cow in traditional fantasy), but to make it unique to the setting/world. Are Shea's suggestion's enough to make the 'extinct/lost' race of this world unique to this world alone? As to what stays and what doesn't in a project like this, it sort of harps back to why I did that post on creating as a community. It is evolutionary like Shea says (much like many long lived campaign worlds change/evolve over time). What was accepted as cannon last year could be completely forgotten this year. Its why I mentioned the concept of thread death and life. If everyone dislikes an idea, don't respond and let it die, it may get pruned and forgotten when WizO's clean the boards. If something is a good idea, contribute to it to help it grow or at least offer compliments or suggestions to keep the idea around so that it doesn't get pruned and forgotten. I see it the same way Shea just mentioned it - if lots of people like it and contribute, it is more 'accepted'. If only one person is contributing to an idea, its not really 'accepted' on a community level. Shea, if you're looking for ideas to clean up the your summary thread, look around in the campaign workshop (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=295) forum. There is a way to format the html in a post so that it will go to certain threads. You could make the first thread a brief summary and a table of contents with subsequent posts of thread lists (ie. 1. Race threads, 2. culture threads, 3. cosmology threads, 4. magic threads, etc.) That way people could navigate from the first post of the thread without scrolling through every section to find the one they want. I don't know how to do it myself and seach isn't working for me, otherwise, I'd just search for the thread that explains how to do that.
the_one_true_shea 03-28-05, 10:49 PM	The LAR/ETR that I described above are probably most alike the tolkin old ones. Beings that are the stars, creatures that laid down on the earth and became mountins. I was thinking nordic myth while I was writing it, but the lit refrences are perfectly valid. With the young LAR, Im thinking: the Ithawu trees would be stark example of the differences between the old LAR, and the young LAR. The Ithawu trees are concerned with things: the Ithawu. And! They have a way of replicating. They are not physically bound to the trees, like a dragon and his body, but spiritually through the belief of the Ithawu. The, I wanna call em brother trees, brother trees are created when the Ithawu perform the right ceremony to awaken the tree. Otherwise the big woody thing is really just a natural plant, its the Ithawu city and belief that turns it into an actual brother tree. The "petty gods" could be another example - they concern themselves with their followers, and they make plans to raise others to their rank. I guess Im thinking that there is no "end to magic" no contest to retain power, just a heafty power climb that requires the inspiration of the masses. Then theres the question of what happens the younger LAR and the gods when the faith fades away? O.Y. :waits: umm, homebrew town ehh, I've been avoiding that relm. Worth looking for grammatic sake.
Brknlf 03-30-05, 04:04 PM	That's a good summary of the difference you have envisioned and I can well imagine the idea. I think brother trees would be a fine name for the unique Cascade trees that we've discussed a little. It plays into the Ithawu outlook on their world, these trees are kinfolk, so to speak. I agree with everything you are saying. I am intrigued by the question you raise however, about young LAR(ETR)/gods when they lose their following. I think the original post mentioned the god fades away when the faith dies, but I can't see this happening. If a god knows that if their followers lose faith, they'll probably do everything they can to keep that faith (shower gifts on the people, answer all the prayre demands they receive etc.). Perhaps, when faith dies, the young LAR/gods somehow go mad, or their minds are warped in some way. For the gods, they start inflicting plagues and famine and biblical type stuff on their lost followers. It opens the way for mythological type battles between the 'new' god of the people and the mad (evil) god. For the living spirit (young LAR), they go mad and 'haunt' an area. Could make for some really creepy type environments - using the Ithawu example, say a city some how perished so the brother tree, without the faith of the Ithawu, goes mad somehow and that part of the forest starts to warp and become twisted (the living Ithawu stay away from the haunted part of the forest, but could make for interesting adventures).
the_one_true_shea 03-31-05, 10:00 PM	:b::b:3 summon zombie brother tree. :b::b::t: destroy target land 2/4 "A twisted brother tree will lash its branch and stamp it roots in mourning of Ithawu long dead and gone." Zombie Brother Tree... :uh-huh: I like it, :D On to other things, I think, that out of the material so far contributed over the last three years, there is enough to consider speculativly poplulating one continent. Description of Landmass Geography: On the eastern coast is a the most wild, untamed territory. Somewhere there is a large dessert (home of the virix, perhaps the Quto), and a Mighty River or two comes down from the mountins (such as fire mountin) that could be anywhere. One river falls miles to the cascades and the Ithawu. The other is spanned by a golden city. On this mass is a human empire, possibly toward the north and the wastes. Deep to the south are the tropical homes of the jerlik (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=65475). Dragon men, draconians, and drakes roam the land without any form of civilization. Elves of five colors, men of all kinds, and some things Im missing could be set down any where amongst that. I dont have any suggestions right now, maybe you do. :blush: