Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crazy_monkey1956 10-25-07, 12:02 PM	It was pointed out that before we can get in to the nitty gritty of what rules and options we want to use, we need to iron out the overall "feel" of the setting. Rules help to promote a certain feel and can guide the setting toward certain themes. For example, Action Points create a more high action feel to the setting, where-as Taint creates a darker, more disturbing feel. So, with that in mind, what is our theme? Generic Fantasy - Typical D&D setting. Example: Greyhawk. High Fantasy - Lots of magic and fantastical creatures. Example: Forgotten Realms. Pulp Fantasy - A more modern feeling world, but with most of the fantasy tropes still in place. Example: Eberron. Dark Fantasy - A more horror themed world. Example: Ravenloft. Low Fantasy - Rarer magic and fantasy critters, but still a sword & sorcery feel. Example: Conan. Modern Fantasy - A modern feeling world, but with magic and fantasy elements. Example: Urban Arcana. Future Fantasy - A sci-fi feeling world with tech and magic intermingled. Example: Dragonstar. If there are other styles I'm forgetting, please feel free to list them. Exemplar Note: The feel I'm going for in Exemplar is currently somewhat Low Fantasy, but with a progressive theme intended to take the world and the characters forward into a Generic or High Fantasy feel. That can and will change based on what we decide here, however.
shadowmask 10-25-07, 12:25 PM	My preference, as stated in the first thread, is high fantasy/high magic. If Forgotten Realms is our "template" for this genre, I need to point out that FR is a bit "busy" for my tastes, both in terms of known personalities and the conglomeration of critters/peoples. I would like to go with a more "open" feel to the setting. It gives players and GMs alike the ability to create the world the characters interact with and form that world to suit their tastes. As for other genres, we can mix and match the styles with the amounts in any combination we desire. For example, Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar is very much medium fantasy/low magic (at least in the nation of Valdemar). She includes psychic Gifts, intelligent horses (Companions), and low level magic in many of her books. Otherwise, everything is done manually. I wouldn't want to ignore these other combinations...Or are we going to discuss magic/psionics in another thread?
Novem 10-25-07, 06:34 PM	Personally, I'd prefer a setting more in lieu of Medium Magic- low-level magic items and magic is very common and readily available, but higher-level mages are rare. Generally, I also leave all the laws of science and physics active, but Magic can ignore/overpower said laws. This creates a world in which technology, magic, and hybrid magical technology can be advanced at independent rates; and PC's (those who become high-level) are major factors in this development (Characters should be able to affect the world, and see the consequences of their actions in the world).
Pete278 10-25-07, 07:39 PM	I'd say a Future Horror Fantasy, but I have a feeling no one will agree with me.
KillerGM 10-25-07, 07:49 PM	Personally, I like the Pulp Fantasy feel of Eberron. My main reason is that it feels like a relatively modern world that developed with magic. It makes more sense to me that people would find a practical application for magic effects, and would make lots of money doing so. I also like how, in Eberron, the NPCs are kept to a lower level overall - or are mostly NPC classes. This goes with what Novem said about liking PCs being able to see the consequences of their actions on the world. It also lets the PCs be the ones in the spotlight at a relatively low to mid level - there are no epic-level NPCs running around who, by all logic, should have easily completed the quest the PCs just fought tooth and nail to do. :)
CobaltTheBlueKnight 10-25-07, 08:13 PM	I am going to go with a low-magic setting for Exemplar. And also, the world should have lots of open spaces. Plenty of "middle-of-knowhere.". That way it can facilitate exploration in the early era of Exemplar. The later era that others would be playing in would be a bit more traditional/high fantasy. Though a lot of how the modern age looks will be determined by the actions of those in the Exemplar era. Speaking of which, how much time should separate the two ages? I am thinking at least a few thousand years. Long enough for their stories to have become exaggerated legends, but not forgotten completely. Also that has to deal with the lifespan of some of the other races. Elves and dwarves specifically. A thousand years to them just doesn't mean what it does to us.
bootmobile 10-26-07, 01:02 AM	(Edit:This ended up a little on the long side, so just a warning. :)) This question has been kicking around in my head for about a week and I think CM's OP helped me put things into focus. My suggestion is really a mix of low, pulp and dark fantasy. The landscapes of this setting would be stark, empty and often barren. Think about the look of terrain in westerns or post-apocalyptic films (maybe it could even be post apocalyptic? ... hmm I'll come back to that). Even forests and other places of vegetation and life have a more dead and dry feel to them than in a typical setting. There will be a place for a big kingdom/empire or two. And certainly there will room for big cities filled with wonderfully fun dark alleys. But the are large empty spaces between these places of civilization. The feel of the setting borrows much from westerns flicks (and for that matter samurai flicks and a lot of anime). The PCs are heroes of great ability compared to normal folk. They wander from frontier town to frontier town, bringing order and justice to lawless lands and towns. They battle villains of similar special ability who use that ability to dominate normal folks. They rescue humanity from the inhuman monsters that prowl the dark place of the world, often hidden behind human masks. For example: The PCs ride into a town griped by fear, it is being repeatedly raided by bandits or giants or a dragons (depending on the PCs' level). The town needs heroes to stand against the raiders and save the town. Another Example: The PCs ride into town, tie their horses at the local tavern/saloon and buy themselves a drink after the long journey along a dry dirt road. Soon after, the local "sheriff" pays them a visit to let them know "how things are run in this town". The PCs soon learn the "sheriff" is a person of great ability like themselves and uses that power (and a legion of minions) to keep the town under his thumb. The PCs must stand up to villain and free the town from his tyranny. Where the setting gets dark is that hidden behind a guise of humanity o hidden in the dark shadows of the world are truly inhuman creatures. They stalk humanity, aiming to bring about the end of humankind. These beings could be your tradition horror creatures (vampires, werewolves, etc), they could be strange and alien monsters, they could be undead spirts or cruel wraith-like beings of pure psionic energy. Or they could all of those. For example: the PCs ride into what they think is just another town, but really beneath the surface the townspeople are enslaved by alien being who bore into their bodies, body-snatchers style. Soon the seemingly normal towns folk tighten the noose around the PCs, attempting to enslave them too. The PCs must escape enslavement, battle to reach to mother creature and free the town of the parasites. Or perhaps it is not parasites but possessing spirits instead and the PCs must close a rift to the netherworld. Or perhaps the PCs ride into a town that is really home to a clan of vampires. The real source of the dark aspect of the setting isn't so much the traditional horror creatures and storylines but instead is the paranoia of not being able to trust anyone. Even if that tavern wench that was making advances to you isn't some sort of evil alien being planning on feeding on you once it gets you back to your room, she could be planning to slit your throat and just to steal whatever you own. ======================================== =============== More stuff: I have more on the look and feel of people, towns and buildings and how it blends the typical western movie town with the magic-tech/steampunk aspects of Eberron. I also have more on how the world was once much like our real world but some sort of apocalypse destroyed that civilization and its technology and learning. How many of the dungeons of the setting are really buried ruins of that modern world, creating ruins and dungeons littered throughout the setting that seem very alien to the PCs (simply because they are modern structures filled with ruined modern devices). I have ideas about how the apocalypse has caused all the magic and the inhuman monsters. How the inhuman things that haunt the world are the legacy of the apocalypse and threaten to wipe out the human race, finish the work the apocalypse started. Perhaps these inhuman creatures are just a clean up crew left behind by the beings that caused the apocalypse. But humanity has proven to be more resilient than expected and the exemplar era heroes beat these monsters back enough to allow humanity room to begin to thrive again. In fact the monsters now seek to regain enough of their power to summon back the full force of their kind since it seems the clean up crews are not enough to kill off the humans. The climax of a campaign could be thwarting such an attempt to summon back these forces. I like the idea that all the human races are in fact just different sub-races of human, created during the apocalypse. This way we can talk about the struggle between the human and the inhuman (a common theme of dark fantasy) and include all PC races as part of the Human side of that conflict. The examplar era would be the period when humanity first pulled itself out of the dark ages following the apocalypse. They are the greatest heroes because they were the first heroes. A special note on firearms (wait, hear me out :)): I think this setting is helped by adding some early firearms to it, so you can really be the wandering gunfighter traveling from border town to border town. The firearms would be about equivalent to those of the first half of 1800s. Now we have already talked about different eras of play and perhaps we could have the early Exemplar era, the middle era and a more modern era (maybe just a couple centuries later than the middle era) which includes the firearms. This way those who want them can use them and those who don't won't have to. I could go on and on, in fact I already have :D, but I will leave off here because it is late and because I rather get some response to what is here before going on to more. I know I put a lot here but it just an idea, please let me know what you think, even if we don't use this here I may very well use it for soemthing else and feedback is welcomed, even if you hate it :D.
crazy_monkey1956 10-26-07, 11:21 AM	bootmobile's post reminds me of the world behind Thundarr the Barbarian. An Earth setting where an apocalypse took place (the moon split in half, although I don't recall why) and magic and strange creatures came into being, existing alongside the wreck and ruin of the modern age. Overall, I like most of the concept. Primarily, as evidenced by Exemplar, I prefer the concept of PCs being the true heroes of the world, not just "another group of adventurers." I like the feeling that if the PCs can't save the day, the day doesn't get saved. Having a sparsely populated world lends itself to that style of play. It also meshes well with the 4th edition "Points of Light" concept, which will make it easier to convert later on.
wordartist179 10-26-07, 02:38 PM	I like boot's ideas too. My boyfriend actually created a post-apocalyptic Earth where Druids took over. It was a lot of fun and we ended up going into a temple with machines that none of the group knew what to do with. I think for Exemplar, though, it would need a medium to low magic world where towns can't necessarily take care of themselves and we (as the heroes) are discovering and using powerful magic and abilities. There could be a few low level Clerics and mages and others, but most had levels in NPC classes. I also like the idea of taint for this kind of world because the place is either affected by post-apocalyptic problems (evil creatures, portals, planes bleeding in, nuclear waste being altered). The heroes would be the points of light in such a world too.
KillerGM 10-26-07, 02:58 PM	Just an addendum to my previous post: Exemplar is the exception to whatever I said - it's the beginning of the world, so to speak, so it should be exceptional. Low-magic (usually something I hate), very barren, etc. ;)
MackoUr 10-26-07, 03:10 PM	bootmobile's post reminds me of the world behind Thundarr the Barbarian. An Earth setting where an apocalypse took place (the moon split in half, although I don't recall why) "In the year 1994, from out of space comes a runaway panet, hurtling between Earth and the Moon. Unleashing cosmic destruction..." (see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvBUsRsYuQs I can't believe I remembered that. I am so ashamed.
crazy_monkey1956 10-26-07, 03:19 PM	"In the year 1994, from out of space comes a runaway panet, hurtling between Earth and the Moon. Unleashing cosmic destruction..." (see it here: http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvBUsRsYuQs I can't believe I remembered that. I am so ashamed. Don't be, I thought it was a nifty little cartoon for its time. Linky no worky, by the way.
MackoUr 10-26-07, 03:27 PM	Oops! The helpful forum code put the http:// in for me. Fixed the link.
Sinfire Titan 10-26-07, 03:42 PM	I'd say a Future Horror Fantasy, but I have a feeling no one will agree with me. *Raises hand* Seconded. We need more of this mix.
Pete278 10-26-07, 07:33 PM	*Raises hand* Seconded. We need more of this mix. Exemplar could, obviously, be less future, but I don't think I see enough Horror Fantasy adventures, despite how awesome they are.
wordartist179 10-27-07, 10:43 AM	Exemplar could, obviously, be less future, but I don't think I see enough Horror Fantasy adventures, despite how awesome they are. Is horror fantasy supposed to be like Ravenloft? If so, I think I could deal with that, and I think it could fit Exemplar as a dark world with lots of evil monsters lurking around and scheming.
shadowmask 10-27-07, 01:12 PM	The consensus seems to be in favor of bootmobile’s ideas. I like most of them, too. ;) There are some things I would like to discuss deeper and/or clarify, though. FYI, long and a bit rambling. First, the description of the world’s social environment would seem to indicate mutual distrust and paranoia on everyone’s parts. Well, at least, it indicates that between the PCs and any NPCs they come across. So my question is…What’s the point to the PCs attempting to save the world/town/person if all they get in return is a knife in the dark? Admittedly, it’s no fun to play the hero in a world where heroes aren’t really needed. Neither is it fun to play heroic characters in a world where even a safe haven isn’t “safe.” Basically, if the world is set against them, the PCs can’t ever really win, and the players get fatigued and/or don’t bond with characters that are only going to die anyway, etc, etc. Or, am I missing something? ;) Second, I think there does need to be regions of lush growth with magic and fantasy of varying degrees. It could be a hidden vale, the epicenter of the original apocalypse (or whatever), a floating island, etc, etc. While no setting can be all things to all people, I think having something to contrast the “rest” of the world with would increase the eeriness of the setting as a whole. Thirdly, in my (not-so) humble opinion, rules that cover firearms don’t mesh well with rules that cover most other weapons. Firearms drastically change the playing field between two combatants. Think Indiana Jones in the bazaar in Raiders of the Lost Ark. While having different time periods helps with that to a certain extent, we are trying to create a cohesive set of rules to cover what will need to be covered for our world. Case and point, someone (other than me) mentioned that d20 Modern doesn’t mesh well with D&D, and I think that the radically different needs of the two games and the rules necessary to meet those needs have a great deal to do with that.
shadowmask 10-27-07, 01:16 PM	...I also like the idea of taint for this kind of world because the place is either affected by post-apocalyptic problems (evil creatures, portals, planes bleeding in, nuclear waste being altered). The heroes would be the points of light in such a world too. I second the taint vote for a world like this...especially in the beginning when heroes are brand new to the world. Taking bootmobile's idea of multiple time periods, the later time periods would be less impacted by the taint of the ravaged world than earlier time periods. While it would still be present, it would be more difficult to "acquire" because the sources are further afield.
shadowmask 10-27-07, 01:17 PM	Is horror fantasy supposed to be like Ravenloft? If so, I think I could deal with that, and I think it could fit Exemplar as a dark world with lots of evil monsters lurking around and scheming. Ravenloft I can deal with in small doses...something like Cthulhu I can do without.
Forgotten_Warrior 10-27-07, 03:30 PM	I'd say a Future Horror Fantasy, but I have a feeling no one will agree with me. I'd like to see more of a modern horror fantasy, although I do agree that it should take place at least a little bit in the future (but just not too future-ish).
bootmobile 10-27-07, 04:14 PM	The consensus seems to be in favor of bootmobile’s ideas. I like most of them, too. ;) There are some things I would like to discuss deeper and/or clarify, though. FYI, long and a bit rambling. First, the description of the world’s social environment would seem to indicate mutual distrust and paranoia on everyone’s parts. Well, at least, it indicates that between the PCs and any NPCs they come across. So my question is…What’s the point to the PCs attempting to save the world/town/person if all they get in return is a knife in the dark? Admittedly, it’s no fun to play the hero in a world where heroes aren’t really needed. Neither is it fun to play heroic characters in a world where even a safe haven isn’t “safe.” Basically, if the world is set against them, the PCs can’t ever really win, and the players get fatigued and/or don’t bond with characters that are only going to die anyway, etc, etc. Or, am I missing something? ;) It is not that everyone is going to stab you in the back, it is that enough of them will stab you in the back that you are forced to be suspicious of everyone, at least at first. There are those worthy of trust and worth saving, it is just much more difficult to establish that trust, which really should help to make those connections that PCs make to the NPCs of the world that much more valued by the players, because it will be hard won. Also, even a cutthroat tavern wench is likely to be grateful if you save her from inhuman monsters and thereafter not try to slit your throat. Heck it might even be that after the PC save the town and deliver it into greater safety and prosperity that she will give up her evil ways. Second, I think there does need to be regions of lush growth with magic and fantasy of varying degrees. It could be a hidden vale, the epicenter of the original apocalypse (or whatever), a floating island, etc, etc. While no setting can be all things to all people, I think having something to contrast the “rest” of the world with would increase the eeriness of the setting as a whole. Fair enough, contrast is always good. Too much endless dreariness could get a little trying. Also I can seen how the fact that there is some place of shining good could be a source of hope and inspiration that gives the common people the strength to keep holding on. Perhaps one of the legacies of the Exemplar era is The City of Man, a place of heroes and knights in shining armour. It is a beautiful city of white battlements and lush woods. From here great heroes of the people ride out into the wilds of the world, trying to beat back the darkness and spread the light of The City of Man to every corner of the world. This gives the PCs the option to be one of these knights-errant sent out into the world to do good. And by no means would these "knights" need to actually be fighter types in plate mail rider a white steed. These "knights" could be of any class, the key part here would be their heroics not their character sheet. Thirdly, in my (not-so) humble opinion, rules that cover firearms don’t mesh well with rules that cover most other weapons. Firearms drastically change the playing field between two combatants. Think Indiana Jones in the bazaar in Raiders of the Lost Ark. While having different time periods helps with that to a certain extent, we are trying to create a cohesive set of rules to cover what will need to be covered for our world. Case and point, someone (other than me) mentioned that d20 Modern doesn’t mesh well with D&D, and I think that the radically different needs of the two games and the rules necessary to meet those needs have a great deal to do with that. It took longer than I thought to get an anti-firearms post. :D I get your point that firearms just mix well with D&D and what is more I agree with it. I was actually the one who made the post about D&D rules not mixing well with Modern rules. ;) I meant it and still do. I have never run a D&D game with firearms and don't think I ever will. I see the three eras as something like this: Exemplar = end of Dark Ages, middle era = just on cusp of the Renaissance, later era = on the verge of the Industrial Revolution. The first 2 eras will be represented well by the middle ages paradigm of D&d, the third era would not be well represented by D&D at all, in my opinion. This is why I think the final era wouldn't be D&D at all, but would be D20 Past instead (using the D20 Modern rules). (Warning: This is definitely going to be rambling because I am thinking and typing at the same time, but this is sort of how I see the last era of play ...) In the this era the heroes of The City of Man made one last stand and drove the monsters into the shadows of the world (in fact into Shadow itself). It seemed at first that the world was delivered at last, but rarely are things so simple and easy. While the monsters were driven back the city and it's heroes were nearly broken and it has taken generations for the city to recover. Moreover, when the monsters were driven back so was the intrusion of magic into the world and thus this era has a much lower level of magic. With the greatest heroes of the world weakened and with less magic to protect and heal the people, the world had actually taken several steps within a generation of this climatic battle. Now the world is once again ready to take strides forward, technology has advanced to fill the gaps left by the lessening of magic in the world. However, most of the land is still dangerous and lawless. So this setting is, historically speaking, somewhere between swashbuckling-late Renaissance and gritty Wild West. With elements of D20 Modern magic/Shadow and dark fantasy paranoia mixed in. I really don't mean for these posts to be so long when I start them. :nonono: Oh well. :ton:
Pete278 10-27-07, 08:19 PM	I'd like to see more of a modern horror fantasy, although I do agree that it should take place at least a little bit in the future (but just not too future-ish). I was thinking maybe "slightly more futuristic than modern, just so I can use those shields from Dune to explain an overall lack of firearms.
BloodDragonMaster 10-27-07, 08:41 PM	I'd say a Future Horror Fantasy, but I have a feeling no one will agree with me. In case anyone wants my opinion, this is pretty much what I was thinking also. Somewhat horror-ish, with some future-ish tech. However, I would also like to see magic be fairly prevalent. Taint is good. It is something that any PC will fear, even at high levels when death isn't much of a problem.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 10-27-07, 09:01 PM	If the game is set after an apocalypse destroys the modern world, it would have to be set pretty far in the future to ensure that people in the exemplar era know little about our modern world. Very little of our technology should survive. Also, how would you explain the appearance of the non-humans? The Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Orcs, and Halflings? Also the more savage humanoids like goblins and lizardfolk? And what about the dragons, demons, devils, the Terrasque, and everything else. You would have to put a pretty good chunk of time between the fall of our civilization and the Exemplar are. At least a few thousand years. Maybe a million. That would ensure that whatever clues we left behind would be few and far-between. It really would seem like a different world that way. But go underground, and you might the the ruins of bomb-shelters. Old munitions depos. Things like that. The old world would still be alluded to in the stories and legends of the new one, but they would be greatly exagerrated. I also agree with firearms being too overpowered compared to traditional fantasy weapons. Even the older 1800's models. Also, I am concerned it might break the fantasy feel of the world if we include them.
crazy_monkey1956 10-27-07, 09:31 PM	If the game is set after an apocalypse destroys the modern world, it would have to be set pretty far in the future to ensure that people in the exemplar era know little about our modern world. Very little of our technology should survive. Also, how would you explain the appearance of the non-humans? The Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Orcs, and Halflings? Also the more savage humanoids like goblins and lizardfolk? And what about the dragons, demons, devils, the Terrasque, and everything else. You would have to put a pretty good chunk of time between the fall of our civilization and the Exemplar are. At least a few thousand years. Maybe a million. That would ensure that whatever clues we left behind would be few and far-between. It really would seem like a different world that way. But go underground, and you might the the ruins of bomb-shelters. Old munitions depos. Things like that. The old world would still be alluded to in the stories and legends of the new one, but they would be greatly exagerrated. I also agree with firearms being too overpowered compared to traditional fantasy weapons. Even the older 1800's models. Also, I am concerned it might break the fantasy feel of the world if we include them. Jumping in with a few thoughts. I'm not sure I like the paranoia of bootmobile's model. I think that PCs need to have safe havens in town and people to save. Duplicitous NPCs and disguised bad guys can be used on occassion for adventure hooks and the like, but as a constant it would wear thin much too quickly. In reference to the apocalypse scenario, if it is Modern Earth or a similar environment that falls, one sure fire way to practically erase all traces of the modern era, while still making them discoverable eventually, is to reverse the oceans. Engineer the apocalypse so that every bit of land in the Modern world winds up underwater. The new continents would mostly be where the oceans are now. It would take a few thousand years for life to develop on the new land and in the mean time, the radiation and chemicals and who knows what else underwater would conspire to create creatures like the kuo-toa and the aboleths and all manner of icky beasties.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 10-27-07, 10:00 PM	Have you read the Wheel of Time? How their previous civilization was destroyed by powerful male "spell casters" being driven mad and using there powers to reshape the world violently. Maybe some sort of invention we create in our near future to stop earthquakes and volcanoes instead has the opposite effect. The upheaval would erase most signs of civilization and likely send the world into an ice age that would have lasted a few thousand years.
bootmobile 10-27-07, 11:18 PM	Well there is no need for the world to actually be earth. The lost modern society would be in many ways similar to our current world but is does not need to actually be our world. As far as how the apocalypse happened and exactly how long it has been since, I personally would vote to keep those sort of things vague. Leave them as mysteries for each individual GM to explore, like the dragon prophecies and the mourning in Eberron. To most people the current way of the world is the way it has always been. It has been like this as long as anyone can remember and there are no histories going back far enough to tell of a time where things were any different. This way if it is useful for a GM to have the apocalypse be thousands even tens of thousands of years ago they can make it that way. If another GM has reasons for the apocalypse to have only been hundreds of years ago, that can work too. As far as the origins of elves, dwarves, dragons, and the rest? Maybe some of the existing humans and animals changed to become them. Maybe they were brought here in the wake of the invaders from somewhere else but they have no memory of that time and place. OK I'm going to cut it off there before I really get going. :D
bootmobile 10-27-07, 11:33 PM	OK I lied I have one more quick point. None of us are going to have time to create a fully fleshed out campaign setting like those put out by the gaming companies. Or if we do it will take a very long time to create and I suspect we will want to start using thus sooner than that. So why not create a world that is more a framework of facts, atmosphere and ideas that each GM can arrange in their own way to create their own story? It would be far less work and would be very flexible for many different GMs to use in their own ways. Crazy Monkey doesn't like the paranoia aspect so much, he can simply play down that aspect and if another GM likes that element he can give it more emphasis to play it up. We give an overview and some details on the key elements, certain organizations and locations (the City of Man and its knights idea that I suggested could be such a key element that gets some detail devoted to it). We create a bunch of examples of what towns and people are like. A GM can use the examples as written if they like to have that sort of thing or they can use the examples as a guideline but create all their own stuff if that is what they prefer. Each GM gets to arrange and rearrange the framework to tell their story their way. We don't limit anyone to one interpretation.
wordartist179 10-28-07, 10:28 AM	So, I think we have to clarify whether we are building a post-apocalyptic world, a world that is new and still developing and taming the wilds, or something else. Also, I would have to agree with no firearms. I don't like them either. We could balance them against other ranged weapons by making them rarer (more expensive at stores/merchants or harder to find ammo and the guns themselves) I like boot's idea of keeping the world a little unfinished, both for time saving and allowing more flexibility for other DM's.
Mistress_of_Mockery 10-28-07, 10:50 AM	*Raises hand* Seconded. We need more of this mix. Thirded (or whatever). Although, I could do without the future. Not saying it can't be fun. Right now I'm playing a horror-themed SWSE game which turned out to be surprisingly good.
wordartist179 10-29-07, 03:19 PM	I disagree with doing a future world with advanced tech running rampant. I appreciate robots and some guns and other random things, but I don't see cybernetic implants and heavy internet or space travel being a good fit for Exemplar. There could be remnants in a post-apocalyptic world, but otherwise there doesn't seem to be a strong link to tech as shown in D20 Future or even Modern.
Pete278 10-29-07, 06:39 PM	Not -that- far in the future. I think I may have given off the wrong impression when I said future, and for that I apologize. By future, I basically meant "modern" with some robots and such.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 10-29-07, 10:43 PM	I am going to go with a more traditional fantasy world. If we incorporate too much high technology, it would be a bit too similar to Final Fantasy, which is a mix of magic and technology. (Also in FF7 you can find downed fighter jets in an archeological dig). As for the theme of Exemplar, the basic thing is that the world needs heroes to accomplish something, because only heroes can. The thing is, what is it that they have to oppose? Is it an evil empire? A monsterous invasion, or perhaps a far-realm invasion? Is there a powerful villain trying to remake the world in his image? Is it set in the midst of a war?
crazy_monkey1956 11-01-07, 01:06 PM	General Consensus The major points of Concept and Theme that we seem to have settled on are: Points of Light - echoing the 4th edition concept. Post-Cataclysm - The world has recovered from an ages old apocalypse of a modern-esque world, possibly Earth. PCs are Exceptional - The PCs are the heroes and the focus of the story. Let's go with that and refine it as we continue. Next Discussion thread will be up shortly.
Fiend_Kraken_III 11-01-07, 02:19 PM	Possibly a 'normal' or 'perfect' high fantasy world that is in fact controlled or manipulated by sinister creatures? It's just that the apocalypse thing has been done a lot before, so I think it would be interesting if after the apocalypse the world was moulded into a perfect/fairytale world by these 'villains' or whatever but it has sinister edges. A more high fantasy concept would also make it easier to put an emphasis on PCs being the heroes, yet the 'real' version of the world (behind the scenes if you like) would be much darker and as technology advances further more of this horror world is revealed.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 11-01-07, 08:25 PM	About the only things that are going to be high fantasy in the Exemplar era are the PC's. And perhaps the villains. The world as a whole would be fairly low powered. Little better than our own medieval times. The only spellcasting class would be the adept, and more often than not they would probably be shunned as witch doctors. In elven society they are probably more accepted. Probably also with Gnomes and Halflings. For humans it would depend on the cultural trends. Dwarves would probably have one or two per delve. Orcs would have them as witch doctors, or shamans. Most of the world, at least the human world, might never have heard of magic. Or at best believe it to be a fairy tale, maybe only used by elves. Some remote areas might not even believe in the existence of Elves. I am picturing a lot of area between villages. Maybe only a few small nations, no real empires. Perhaps a loose confederation of city-states, like ancient Greece.
Fiend_Kraken_III 11-02-07, 01:41 PM	About the only things that are going to be high fantasy in the Exemplar era are the PC's. And perhaps the villains. The world as a whole would be fairly low powered. Little better than our own medieval times. The only spellcasting class would be the adept, and more often than not they would probably be shunned as witch doctors. In elven society they are probably more accepted. Probably also with Gnomes and Halflings. For humans it would depend on the cultural trends. Dwarves would probably have one or two per delve. Orcs would have them as witch doctors, or shamans. Most of the world, at least the human world, might never have heard of magic. Or at best believe it to be a fairy tale, maybe only used by elves. Some remote areas might not even believe in the existence of Elves. I am picturing a lot of area between villages. Maybe only a few small nations, no real empires. Perhaps a loose confederation of city-states, like ancient Greece. Yes, but my idea wasn't really 'high fantasy' in terms of pow level; I meant High Fantasy with sinister undertones as opposed to Dark Fantasy.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 11-05-07, 03:23 AM	I am not opposed to their being sinister underpinnings to the world in general. Things like shadowy cabals and cults planning terrible deeds beneath the streets of an idyllic city. Maybe a secret society of changlings? Though that may make things a bit too paranoid.
Hippokrene 11-28-07, 05:22 PM	shadowmask: " If Forgotten Realms is our "template" for this genre, I need to point out that FR is a bit "busy" for my tastes, both in terms of known personalities and the conglomeration of critters/peoples." I don't think we could match the 'busyness' of FR if we tried. CobalttheBlueKnight: " Elves and dwarves specifically. A thousand years to them just doesn't mean what it does to us." Speaking of elves and dwarves, are the WBP ones only going to have one 'race,' be incredibly long lived, and breed as often as pandas? Bootmoblie: " Where the setting gets dark is that hidden behind a guise of humanity o hidden in the dark shadows of the world are truly inhuman creatures. They stalk humanity, aiming to bring about the end of humankind. These beings could be your tradition horror creatures (vampires, werewolves, etc), they could be strange and alien monsters, they could be undead spirts or cruel wraith-like beings of pure psionic energy. Or they could all of those." I think all of those should have their place. I see a triune of Undead, Abominations, and Outsiders. I think each group should have a common 'ancestry' and their own, unique alien/evil/inhuman feel. A taint or sanity mechanism might help reflect that. I don't like the idea of dragons raiding villages, it sounds cheap. I don't want dragons in the setting to be common, petty, or within the realm of human understanding. I say we create 3 to 9 dragons *for the entire world* and that's it. " There will be a place for a big kingdom/empire or two. And certainly there will room for big cities filled with wonderfully fun dark alleys. But the are large empty spaces between these places of civilization." When you say a big kingdom or empire, do you picture a Camelot or a sort of decaying, fractured kingdom sliding into ruin? " I have ideas about how the apocalypse has caused all the magic and the inhuman monsters. How the inhuman things that haunt the world are the legacy of the apocalypse and threaten to wipe out the human race, finish the work the apocalypse started. Perhaps these inhuman creatures are just a clean up crew left behind by the beings that caused the apocalypse." I think that would be a good background for the Abominations of this setting. " I like the idea that all the human races are in fact just different sub-races of human, created during the apocalypse. This way we can talk about the struggle between the human and the inhuman (a common theme of dark fantasy) and include all PC races as part of the Human side of that conflict." You mean dwarves, elves, and gnomes are really humans? No, I don't like it. " In the this era the heroes of The City of Man made one last stand and drove the monsters into the shadows of the world (in fact into Shadow itself)." Please, no Shadow itself, or Light itself. I like the idea of multiple planes of existence, such as the Underworld, the Abyss, the Inferno, the Blessed Isles, the Dreamtime, etc, so if you just "A bunch of heroes got together and tossed many monsters into a land of Shadow", that's fine, but no Unifying Force of Evil, or Great, Immortal Conflict Between Light and Dark. (Enough capitals there? :) ) shadowmask: " Thirdly, in my (not-so) humble opinion, rules that cover firearms don’t mesh well with rules that cover most other weapons. Firearms drastically change the playing field between two combatants." That's only if you want to realistically model firearms. As d20 systems don't realistically model sword combat, I don't think the problem is that pressing. If a hero can shrug off a hit from a greatsword, then they can shrug off a shot from a pistol. crazymonkey: " In reference to the apocalypse scenario, if it is Modern Earth or a similar environment that falls, one sure fire way to practically erase all traces of the modern era, while still making them discoverable eventually, is to reverse the oceans." That's extreme. Most modern humans overestimate the amount of time our monuments would survive if there were an apocalypse tomorrow. The Empire State Building, the Eiffel Tower, and the Statue of Liberty cannot last as long as the pyramids have. The statue and the tower wouldn't last 200 years without constant maintenance. The ESB has stone in it, so it would take about a thousand years. Plastics are the only thing you'd have to worry about surviving. A pump action spray bottle might survive 5,000 years. This is because there aren't any bacteria that break down plastics. If we speculated that a manufactured bacteria that did just that was let loose during the apocalypse, we could set the world 2,000 after the current year and have the only signs of previous civilization be underground bunkers (great place for dwarves), Mount Rushmore, and the like.
crazy_monkey1956 11-28-07, 05:47 PM	If you take a gander at Exemplar, you'll notice one of the post-apocalypse freaky things that was just defeated by Seldon and Reva. I went with a grimlock because there's something about them that's reminiscint of The Time Machine to me. As for the state of the world and the degeneration of modern stuff...I think extreme is the way to go given that some relics could survive thousands of years and I'd rather not have this stuff be easy to find. Referencing Exemplar again, Nyva is currently carrying around a DVD disc, though she has no possible way of knowing that.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 11-29-07, 03:44 PM	I would say that a 'comfortable' period of time to set Exemplar after the fall of a modern world would be something to the tune of 10,000 years at minimum. Thats a long time even to dragons. The maximum amount of time that we should seriously consider would be one million years. Though that would certainly erode most signs of the modern world and allow enough time for all the critters in the Monster Manual to evolve. Speaking of dragons, I agree they should be rare, and majestic/terrifying, but more to the tune of 3 to 9 per color. Possibly the oldest dragons could have been around when the modern age was destroyed, they may even haev had a part in it. Also, I want to reiterate a previous point, no where has it been said that the previous modern world that was destroyed was ours. Just that it was a modern world.
Hippokrene 11-29-07, 03:57 PM	How about, after the catastrophe, dragons were the first magical creatures to emerge, and each one adopted one of the intelligent races to guide back to civilization.
crazy_monkey1956 11-29-07, 04:02 PM	How about, after the catastrophe, dragons were the first magical creatures to emerge, and each one adopted one of the intelligent races to guide back to civilization. That'd be great except.... I did that exact same thing (Dragons adopting a race) in my Paths of Legend setting (posted on my Glog and the setting used in a majority of my PbPs) I'd end up with a conflict of interest if we were to go forward with that idea, I think.
Hippokrene 11-29-07, 04:03 PM	How would that be a conflict of interest?
crazy_monkey1956 11-29-07, 04:05 PM	How would that be a conflict of interest? I'm trying to keep my "imprint" off of this project as much as possible. Using an idea I've already used in my personal setting would really make it difficult to maintain that.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 11-29-07, 04:17 PM	Yeah, we wouldn't want the two becoming too alike in the first place. This is suppossed to be about creating a shared campaign setting, not remaking a world CM has already developed. Also I have nominated you and the future forum leads for cardification in the Gleemax block CM. It makes a certain sort of sense for the important posters in the various forums on Gleemax to have their own cards.
Hippokrene 11-29-07, 04:21 PM	I'm trying to keep my "imprint" off of this project as much as possible. Using an idea I've already used in my personal setting would really make it difficult to maintain that. ... okay.
crazy_monkey1956 11-29-07, 04:28 PM	... okay. Let me clarify a little. With the exceptions of Exemplar and the D&D Tutorial, every play-by-post I run is part of an overall campaign "multi-verse" of my own design, including Shadowstorm and The Battle Nexus. It would be a little too easy for me to include material from my own work in the world building project and put too much of a stamp of ownership on it. I want to avoid that, since this is a shared world.
Hippokrene 11-29-07, 04:36 PM	CobaltTheBlueKnight: "This is suppossed to be about creating a shared campaign setting, not remaking a world CM has already developed." I had an idea that similar to one CM had, so I'm trying to remake his world? That's a bit of a stretch. crazy_monkey1956: "Let me clarify a little." There's no need to clarify. I had an idea you've used before and you want to try something else instead.
crazy_monkey1956 11-29-07, 04:43 PM	I had an idea that similar to one CM had, so I'm trying to remake his world? That's a bit of a stretch. Okie dokie, let's hit this from a different angle. I'll explain, in brief, how my settings "Race Guiding Dragons" work, and then we can expand upon 'krene's idea in, hopefully, a different direction from that. In my setting, there are ten Elder Dragons (Divine Rank 0 Great Wyrms) of each of the ten colors. Each one is responsible for the guiding of one race until that race is able to fend for itself and have a member rise to godhood, sponsored by their Elder Dragon (my setting didn't have gods prior to the ascension of the Ten chosen by the Elder Dragons). The color-race associations were... Red - Gith Blue - Goblinoids Green - Reptillians (kobolds, lizardfolk, troglodytes) Black - Orcs White - Gnolls Gold - Humans Silver - Elves Bronze - Dwarves Copper - Gnomes Brass - Halflings The Elder Dragons created a race of beings to act as their eyes and ears in the mortal world, rakshasas. The rakshasas were corrupted, however, early in the world's history. So, there it is. If we go with 'krene's idea, let's try to steer clear of anything resembling the above. ;)
Hippokrene 11-29-07, 04:52 PM	It was just an idea. It popped into my head five minutes ago after reading Cobalt's response. If you'd rather do something else, it's okay.
Hippokrene 11-29-07, 05:01 PM	What gods would be good for our setting? Will clerics, druids, and paladins have to pick a god, as in FR? Should we be like Eberron, and looser alignment restrictions for clerics? How active and involved in the world should the gods be?
crazy_monkey1956 11-29-07, 05:03 PM	What gods would be good for our setting? Will clerics, druids, and paladins have to pick a god, as in FR? Should we be like Eberron, and looser alignment restrictions for clerics? How active and involved in the world should the gods be? I'd like to tackle that in a future discussion. Cosmology is extremely important to a setting so I'd like to devote an entire discussion thread to it.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 11-29-07, 05:14 PM	Yes, I would have to agree with you on that one. Their should also be a seperate thread for discussing the various monsters and their place in the world. Though I would save that for later. We have enough on our plate for the moment.
BloodDragonMaster 11-29-07, 09:15 PM	On the subject of dragons, as it has come up, I like the idea of there being very few dragons (like Exile/Avernum, if anyone gets the reference). Here's my thought: There are ten "true" dragons (one of each color) that are rank 0 divine Great Wyrms. The good ones live on the good plane, and the evil ones live on the Dark Ethereal, as reflections of the good ones. The "monster" dragons would be termed as "drakes" and never reach past about the Ancient stage. They would probably also be less intelligent. This would allow for dragonlike monsters as important creatures, but the true dragons would be super-powered, highly intelligent boss monsters that most PC's would not be able to kill. They would be treated in a similar manner to Orcus and Demogorgon, that is, final bosses of campaigns.
crazy_monkey1956 11-29-07, 09:20 PM	On the subject of dragons, as it has come up, I like the idea of there being very few dragons (like Exile/Avernum, if anyone gets the reference). Here's my thought: There are ten "true" dragons (one of each color) that are rank 0 divine Great Wyrms. The good ones live on the good plane, and the evil ones live on the Dark Ethereal, as reflections of the good ones. The "monster" dragons would be termed as "drakes" and never reach past about the Ancient stage. They would probably also be less intelligent. This would allow for dragonlike monsters as important creatures, but the true dragons would be super-powered, highly intelligent boss monsters that most PC's would not be able to kill. They would be treated in a similar manner to Orcus and Demogorgon, that is, final bosses of campaigns. I'd like to avoid giving them Divine Rank 0 (see my post above for reasoning). Keeping them rare is fine, but I like having a Great Wyrm around for my budding epic level PCs to go up against. Giving them a role in the world gives them a better reason to be that epic threat, however.
Hippokrene 11-29-07, 10:28 PM	I'd like dragons to remain something the PCs can't kill.
KillerGM 11-29-07, 11:09 PM	One of my fondest D&D memories is having my players fight a CR 1 white dragon at 1st level. *shrug* I like dragons as monsters. While they aren't the mindless opponents most monsters end up, I like including them as adversaries and foils. Dragon fights/encounters should be memorable, but I don't really want to elevate dragons to deity status.
crazy_monkey1956 11-30-07, 12:19 AM	One of my fondest D&D memories is having my players fight a CR 1 white dragon at 1st level. *shrug* I like dragons as monsters. While they aren't the mindless opponents most monsters end up, I like including them as adversaries and foils. Dragon fights/encounters should be memorable, but I don't really want to elevate dragons to deity status. I concur. Dragons shouldn't be "just another encounter" but they should be available for a DM who wants to use them.
Hippokrene 11-30-07, 03:17 AM	Making a creature immortal doesn't make it a diety, nor does it mean that DMs can use it. It just means PCs can't kill it.
crazy_monkey1956 11-30-07, 09:55 AM	Making a creature immortal doesn't make it a diety, nor does it mean that DMs can use it. It just means PCs can't kill it. I really want to keep the world open to options. It is not for us to say whether an individual DM can use a dragon as a killable bad guy. It's our job to give those dragons flavor and purpose in the world to help DM use dragons in their adventures. An idea to muse on for the Cosmology discussion: Draconic Gods. The gods are the immortal dragons 'krene mentions and mortal dragons are thus instruments of that god's will upon the world. PCs can therefore go out and kill a mortal dragon...but doing so could get the wrong God's attention.
Hippokrene 11-30-07, 02:04 PM	I really want to keep the world open to options. It is not for us to say whether an individual DM can use a dragon as a killable bad guy. It's our job to give those dragons flavor and purpose in the world to help DM use dragons in their adventures. Immortal beings who tap into the primal powers of the world is, in fact, flavor and purpose. As BDM said, there can be lesser dragons for killing. Edit: How about this? True dragons are immortal, but their body can be destroyed. Like phoenixes, they rise again. A body reforms out of whatever primordial sludge dragons are made of with the same memory, personality, and spirit as the previous one.
crazy_monkey1956 11-30-07, 02:17 PM	Immortal beings who tap into the primal powers of the world is, in fact, flavor and purpose. As BDM said, there can be lesser dragons for killing. Edit: How about this? True dragons are immortal, but their body can be destroyed. Like phoenixes, they rise again. A body reforms out of whatever primordial sludge dragons are made of with the same memory, personality, and spirit as the previous one. I had a thought similar to that last night. It brings up the issue, however, of whether or not dragons in this world use the D&D age categories and colors or not. If there's only a few dragons in the world, do they reincarnate fully formed as great wyrm level dragons? Or do they have to go through 1200 years of maturing (and vulnerability)?
BloodDragonMaster 12-01-07, 08:19 AM	I figure it would put some of the "coolness" back into dragons if they were restricted to super-powered. I like the idea of the "true" dragons reviving, but I think they should revive at full strength (maybe after thousands of years, or something? Maybe it was the deaths of the dragons that led to the apocalypse in the first place.) If we want to be able to use dragons that aren't super-powered, we can always change their descriptions and such. I'll explain by using the Exile/Avernum example: In that world, there are five dragons, each of which is one of the most powerful creatures in existance. However, they are classified as NPCs as opposed to monsters. They will not attack the PCs unless the PCs attack first. Throughout the world, there are numerous other dragon-like monsters, ranging in power level from the "lizard", to the "fire lizard", to the "drake", to the feared "chasm drake", which is almost as powerful as a dragon. The main difference is intelligence. The drakes range from barely sentient to slightly above average, where the dragons are super-intelligent. Using this model, we could allow for the PCs to fight numerous "drakes" which have the same stats as MM dragons, while still allowing for the true dragons to be at least epic.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 12-01-07, 02:30 PM	I'm not sure about having the Gods be dragons. Certainly some dragons could have ascended to godhood, but I don't think that all the gods need to be dragons. Part of that is because it's hinted at in Eberron that that is what the gods of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six (minus the Traveller) are. Oh, and immortale doesn't mean you can't kill it, immortal means won't die of old age. You were thinking of invincible.
wordartist179 12-01-07, 03:02 PM	I like the idea of having dragons be ultimate powers. It does make them original and special. I also like the idea of having weaker dragons under different names. I think having the dragons being gods relates more to CM's current campaigns. Why not go for something more original, like using the heroes of other ages as current gods? Like for Exemplar, why can't our current heroes be the future gods, and our current gods are heroes from the before the apocalypse.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 12-01-07, 03:31 PM	I think Dragons should be linked to the end of the old world. Either they were a cause, or they were an effect. I like the idea of their being an effect. And I have an idea for what did the old age in, remade the world, awakened magic, and transformed the various creatures into DnD creatures. A meteor, made of solid spiritual matter slamming into the planet. Spiritual matter is to spiritual energy what regular matter is to physical energy. Only much more unstable, and therefore rare. When the meteor collided with the planet, it exploded into a wave of pure spiritual power that washed over the world, causing catastrophic damage. Where it encountered people, some were outright destroyed, gone without a trace, others were given whatever ability or form they most desired, others were seeminly unaffected, but all reshaped the landscape according to their unconcious desires. In densely populated areas, this created so much intereference, that often the area seemed to 'unravel', leaving nothing behind. So, what do you think? A bit over the top?
crazy_monkey1956 12-01-07, 03:36 PM	Meteors are a bit...over done, methinks. The general consensus is that dragons should have a significant role in the world. Why?
CobaltTheBlueKnight 12-01-07, 03:42 PM	Well, significant out in the open, or behind the scenes?
wordartist179 12-01-07, 03:50 PM	Dragons are significant because we make them so. They're also significant because of their abilties and potential. They are one of the more versatile monsters because they have so many different CR's without the DM doing too much work.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 12-01-07, 04:04 PM	Perhaps the first dragons were originally humans who were members of a secret society interested in gaining power. Like all secret societies are. They turned to an arcane source, and while they succeeded in gaining the power the wanted, the outflux of arcane power also destroyed their world and changed them into the first dragons. I would imagine a cabal of perhaps 30 people. That would be 3 for each color after transformation.
crazy_monkey1956 12-01-07, 04:26 PM	Why dragons, though? What is it about them that makes them compelling (outside of game mechanic uber-ness)?
CobaltTheBlueKnight 12-01-07, 04:34 PM	They are majestic, and powerful. Ancient and wise. People the world over have worshiped and revered dragons of all forms for thousands of years. There is an example of them in just about every culture and religion you can think of. Like the lion is the king of the jungle, the dragon is the king of fantasy creatures.
crazy_monkey1956 12-01-07, 04:39 PM	They are majestic, and powerful. Ancient and wise. People the world over have worshiped and revered dragons of all forms for thousands of years. There is an example of them in just about every culture and religion you can think of. Like the lion is the king of the jungle, the dragon is the king of fantasy creatures. Then let's base our dragons off of that in some way... Assuming, for the moment, that Earth is our pre-apocalypse world, dragons were guardians and tyrants, sources of wisdom and harbingers of doom to ancient cultures the world over. As belief in magic waned, so did belief in dragons and they went into a slumber, hidden from the world as humans left them behind. Then the apocalypse came and the dragons were awakened. The world had changed and the dragons took it upon themselves to make this world better fit the image of the world they knew from ancient times, resuming their roles. This leaves the apocalypse vague and gives dragons a place of significance.
Hippokrene 12-01-07, 04:42 PM	CobalttheBlueKnight: " I'm not sure about having the Gods be dragons." It's a good thing I didn't suggest that then, yes? ;) " Oh, and immortale doesn't mean you can't kill it, immortal means won't die of old age. You were thinking of invincible." No, you're thinking eternal youth. Adv. Immortal: 1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/immortal crazy_monkey1956 "I had a thought similar to that last night. It brings up the issue, however, of whether or not dragons in this world use the D&D age categories and colors or not. If there's only a few dragons in the world, do they reincarnate fully formed as great wyrm level dragons? Or do they have to go through 1200 years of maturing (and vulnerability)?" I'd rather they not adhere to the D&D color = alignment, age = power model. My thoughts were that their nature and 'life cycle' would be based on whatever primal force they tapped into. For instance, a dragon based on nature - I'll call it a green dragon - might look more like a sandworm from Dune. It starts out as a wyrmling but age isn't what makes it grow, the amount it eats is. One green dragon might feed moderately on the creatures around it, growing over time until it reaches Great Wyrm status, at which point it devours itself and starts again as a wyrmling. Another might be a rapacious beast that devours all in its path, sucking down everything in its environment until its bloated frame can hardly move and it enters a state of deep hibernation. A dragon based on law and order - I'll call this white - could be based on time. It appears to be a dragon made of marble with the constellations etched across its skin, and it follows the stages perfectly, every 100 years it goes up a level with no intermediate. At noon on the appointed day, it immediately swells from one stage to another. It's fellow is a dragon that appears to be made of ice crystals, and that dragon is unchanging. Whatever stage its in, it's always in and will always be in. A third dragon type could be based around chaos - I'll call these quicksilver - and their form and power is fluid. There's no established pattern or power level; it waxes and wanes randomly. " The general consensus is that dragons should have a significant role in the world." I don't know if they should have a significant role. I'm suggesting a unique nature. "Why?" I can't see dwarves filling the role, or beholders. It's because they're a mythical creature that's held up as being important in folklores around the world. The majority of creatures in DnD are either limited to a handful of cultures and/or of a lower power level. "Cobalt: "They are majestic, and powerful. Ancient and wise. People the world over have worshiped and revered dragons of all forms for thousands of years. There is an example of them in just about every culture and religion you can think of. Like the lion is the king of the jungle, the dragon is the king of fantasy creatures." Actually, what he said.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 12-01-07, 07:01 PM	I think that would be a good idea for the, um what would be a good term? Primal Dragons? These would be along the lines of epic-near deities, or outright gods in and of themselves. The other DnD dragons could still be included. Perhaps as their progeny. ***Got to learn to not try and scroll the mouse wheel while holding down shift, third time I've done that today*** Each one is associated with a different philosophy or constant of the universe. Not to make them dependent upon the Complete Psionic's book, but their list of philosophies is a good place to start. For example, a Dragon that symbolizes Creation, Destruction, and Time could be a sort of Mayan dragon that determines when an one age ends and a new one begins. The mantles are: Chaos, Communication, Conflict, Consumption, Corruption/Madness, Creation, Death, Deception, Destruction, Elements, Energy, Evil, Fate, Force, Freedom, Good, Guardian, Justice, Knowledge, Law, Life, Light/Darkness, Magic, Mental Power, Natural World, Pain and Suffering, Physical Power, the Planes, Repose, and Time
wordartist179 12-02-07, 12:08 AM	I think that would be a good idea for the, um what would be a good term? Primal Dragons? These would be along the lines of epic-near deities, or outright gods in and of themselves. The other DnD dragons could still be included. Perhaps as their progeny. ***Got to learn to not try and scroll the mouse wheel while holding down shift, third time I've done that today*** Each one is associated with a different philosophy or constant of the universe. Not to make them dependent upon the Complete Psionic's book, but their list of philosophies is a good place to start. For example, a Dragon that symbolizes Creation, Destruction, and Time could be a sort of Mayan dragon that determines when an one age ends and a new one begins. The mantles are: Chaos, Communication, Conflict, Consumption, Corruption/Madness, Creation, Death, Deception, Destruction, Elements, Energy, Evil, Fate, Force, Freedom, Good, Guardian, Justice, Knowledge, Law, Life, Light/Darkness, Magic, Mental Power, Natural World, Pain and Suffering, Physical Power, the Planes, Repose, and Time Again, I disagree with using the dragons as gods. I think they can maintained as incredibly powerful beings that act as NPCs or enemies. As I said in my earlier post, I think the heroes of each age could ascend to godhood or demigodhood. Otherwise, we could pull apart existing gods and make our own pantheon. I agree more with Hippokrene as to how dragons could be portrayed. They are incredibly intelligent and powerful and magnificent for any characters to see. Having the dragons emulate aspects of the world would be very interesting to see and have as jumping off places for any type of myths, especially for bards and clerics.
CobaltTheBlueKnight 12-02-07, 03:05 AM	Yes, but it is always fun to make new epic dragons. But that is something for another time.
Hippokrene 12-02-07, 03:53 AM	Just a few thoughts... I agree the dragons should not be gods. A few people might worship them as such, and they might fulfill a role that some see as divine. Different religions define gods differently, so it might behoove us to sit down and decide that it means to be a god in our setting. If anyone can just 'ascend to godhood,' it sounds like godhood is just being really damn powerful. I think your idea is interesting wordartist, but let's wait for the Cosmology thread to hash it out. I've also noticed that while bootmobile's general idea seems popular, we haven't expressed our concept and theme in a focused manner. What I mean is, if someone said, "Tell me about your setting in fifty words or less," what would we say? Would it be something like: [Setting Name] is a dark, post- apocalyptic fantasy world in which small enclaves of humans and non-humans fight the horrors unleashed in the Cataclysm and try to restore life to a charred and twisted wasteland. -or- Ten thousand years after the Fall of Man, bold heroes dare to challenge the abomination lords that hold the world in their grip. United, the races of the earth clash against the darkness in [Setting Name] with steel, arcane might, and purity of spirit. -or- The Cataclysm brought destruction, but also renewal. This is the Fifth Age, in which magic and wonder is alive in the land. Monsters also wander the earth, and so heroes are needed to protect the united races, and bring peace and prosperity to the land. To be more specific, in the standard era: Is it obvious that the world is post-apocalyptic? Or, has enough time passed that the world has mostly healed? Is the landscape going to look like this?: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Mount_Doom.jpg This?: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wsherb/edpages/raingrass/images/spiritlake.jpg Or, this?: http://images.travelpod.com/users/spspecial/lonavala-_2005.1170316320.picture_033.jpg Are the monsters lurking in the shadows? Do they prey often on smaller villages, sweeping down at night and stealing children away? Do they rule over many lands? Do mindless horrors roam the wilderness, feasting on anything that travels without a powerful, armed guard? Does the *average* commoner think: A: Damn it, those goblins snatched my boy while he was hunting in the woods! B: Damn it, those orcs raided our village and killed my boy! C: Damn it, my wife is dying of the burning sickness and Lord Abaggorth has demanded my first born as a sacrifice!
crazy_monkey1956 12-02-07, 10:45 AM	I see Exemplar as being the second picture and the modern age as being the third. I think that by the modern era, vestiges of the old pre-apocalypse world should be mostly gone. Exemplar has a few lurkers and stragglers and secrets. I do think that the average commoner should see the world as a dangerous place and therefore welcome the protection of a sovereign or other powerful individual. Any area beyond the sovereign's influence should be something most commoners wouldn't even consider venturing into.
wordartist179 12-02-07, 11:19 AM	What I was thinking about for the gods was that each pantheon chooses a new set from the heroes of their age to ascend and take the place of the present deities. It would give many people something to strive and hope for. Also, gods could choose champions that they watch and tutor in hopes of guiding them toward an ascension when the current age ends. I agree with CM. Commoners in Exemplar see the world as dangerous, so they seek protection under some kind of leader, whether elder, lord, or king. In the modern age though, I would see commoners getting back out into the wilderness more and starting to reclaim land from whatever creatures are out there (not in terms of adventuring, but slowly expanding and taking it back like Manifest Destiny)
CobaltTheBlueKnight 12-02-07, 12:11 PM	I agree that Exemplar should be more like the second picture. I also think we need to come up with a good number of years to have passed after the fall of the modern era. I also like the idea of this being the fifth age by the way. Since I think most of the signs of modern civilization should be wiped away by now, I am going to say that the cataclysm should either have happened in the distant past, or it should have been so massive that nearly every sign of it was wiped away. Perhaps both. Also humanity would have to be very seriously threatened to keep them from having the time to pass on at least enough of the previous age's knowledge to allow their children to rebuild to at least a certain degree after things calmed down. Perhaps have the cataclysm take a very long time to play out. One possiblity is a crustal disturbance deep in the Earth that creates a long period of intense tectonic activity. Every fault line becoming simultaneously highly unstable. Every volcano erupting on a fairly regular basis. And all over a course of maybe a couple thousand years. That would resurface most of the planet, kill off most life, send humanity to edge of extinction, and force them to struggle very hard to survive. Then, after the volcanoes quiet down, the second shoe drops. All that ash and volcanic gasses in the atmosphere would block out enough light to plunge the world into an ice age that could last a few thousand years. Maybe a 6 thousand year period from the beginning of the disaster to end of the ice age. Then set Exemplar another couple thousand years after that so most of the ice sheets would have receded and the world could recover to the point of picture number two. This of course, was all just a side effect of whatever arcane event occured that set everything in motion. As for the notion of gods, I don't think that idea of the current pantheon looking for successors in the mortal population is anything that they would advertise. Also what then is the explanation for the Exemplars? I think perhaps the gods SELECT likely canditates at birth and empower them with a bit of their own divine nature and then see if they use this potential to good effect. If they do, then they are ascended to take the place of the previous pantheon when the Exemplars reach a certain level. At least epic I would say
crazy_monkey1956 12-02-07, 12:19 PM	Potential Rough Timeline *Note: This assumes Earth is the old world. That assumption doesn't need to be binding but it gives us a frame of reference. 20XX - A natural disaster, nuclear conflict, or arcane event (or all of the above) causes a world-wide apocalypse. Humanity is brought to the brink of extinction. 5000 - The natural world has stabilized enough that humanity...and other sentient beings brought about the magical energies now suffusing the world, begin to establish small tribes, nations and city-states. The Exemplar era. 10000 - The sentient races have fought back the dangers of the world enough that nations are prospering, trade between nations is now common. The modern era. Now, do we want to bump those year-marks up a bit, put in a greater time-span or lessen it?
CobaltTheBlueKnight 12-02-07, 12:34 PM	I think bump up the time to Exemplar, and decrease the time to modern. Perhaps like this: 20xx: The destruction of the older era 7000: The world has healed enough that the Exemplar era can take place. 10000: The heroes of Exemplar have lessened the dangers in the worl to the point that the modern era can start. So, 5 thousand years from the start of the destruction of the modern age to the start of Exempar, then another 3 thousand to the start of the modern era. Enough time for the deeds of the Exemplar characters to pass into legend.