..And closing in 3..2..1...... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

..And closing in 3..2..1......

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
davidrmurrell
Jun 24, 2008 8:28:46 Woh, can the Mods and VCL chill a bit. At the time of writing this over half the front page of General Discussions forum is either locked or moved. May be one of you enlightened souls can tell us what is 'General' rather than stuck in the mega thread of death, so we discuss that?

I realise that there are some flame wars, but since you are dealing with the threads rather than individual posters, all that is happening that this board is beginning to look a mess.
#2
Webster
Jun 24, 2008 8:35:33 Yes, we're cleaning things up a bit, consolidating many of the threads that are similar, and moving others where they belong.

You'll notice many of the redirects have been removed, and most (if not all) of the current ones are on a clock and will disappear. That way the board will look cleaner.
#3
relbanan
Jun 24, 2008 8:37:17 It'd be nice if they could moderate the threads rather than just merge all of them into that mess. Every time someone adds a 4e vs 3e comment the whole thread gets absorbed by the Borg. How about just moderating the offending posts, and temp-banning people who won't stop doing it?
#4
ORC_Nashira
Jun 24, 2008 8:38:37 Moved at VCL request.
#5
relbanan
Jun 24, 2008 8:39:23
Yes, we're cleaning things up a bit, consolidating many of the threads that are similar, and moving others where they belong.

It's understandable that you're trying to improve the noise-to-info level, and we appreciate that, it's just frustrating that several threads with good info/discussions have been derailed and then Borged, never to be seen again...
#6
dcanderson
Jun 24, 2008 8:42:42
It'd be nice if they could moderate the threads rather than just merge all of them into that mess. Every time someone adds a 4e vs 3e comment the whole thread gets absorbed by the Borg. How about just moderating the offending posts, and temp-banning people who won't stop doing it?

The ones that get merged usually started out as edition wars threads from the OP anyway.

A lot of people when they get some "great new insight" about 4e -whether "4e rocks" or "4e sucks"- seem to feel the need to make a new thread rather than post in one of the existing threads and those threads are just clutter.
#7
altondelamourne
Jun 24, 2008 8:46:55 I agree with this. It seems that the way the board is trying to deal with the edition wars is to just capture every fight thread, scoop everyone up (even the ones that aren't fighting) and dump them into a huge thread. This seems kind of silly, being that you want us to stick to threads and not drop into each others threads and harrass each other. Unfortunately, when you drop all the conversations into the same 'mega thread' (whether positive about an edition or negative) you're basically setting up an arena like event where suddenly all the people that hate each others opinions are face to face. Wouldn't it make more sense to take everyone that like 4e and put them in one mega thread so they could talk about the things they like and dislike and then put everyone that says its terrible into another mega thread so they can discuss how much better edition X is? It just seems like the mega thread is a no mans land where the moderators no longer have to deal with the people who were fighting. Maybe this is just me though.
#8
relbanan
Jun 24, 2008 8:47:08 Yeah, I understand the difficulty of moderating a big board, it's just frustrating to see good info vanish.
#9
artytoo_dup
Jun 24, 2008 8:47:59
Yes, we're cleaning things up a bit, consolidating many of the threads that are similar, and moving others where they belong

When you move or close a thread that contains flaming, trolling, and mudslinging, then that sends me the message that "overly-emotional arguments are not acceptable" and that's fine.

However, when you take a thread that -- at a superficial glance -- could be labelled as anti-4e, but upon closer inspection, turns out to be almost exclusively civil and respectful, with constructive criticism and tips for improvement, and you effectively sign a death warrant by Burial-In-Megathread, then the message I get is "We don't want constructive criticism about 4e, we will bury such comments in a megathread where no developer will ever see it -- WoTC has their own sources for feedback about 4E but this forum is not one of them". However mistaken, that is the impression I get.
#10
davidrmurrell
Jun 24, 2008 8:48:19 Hahaahahaha! Should rename this as ...Moving in...3...2...1! :P
#11
altondelamourne
Jun 24, 2008 8:50:21
When you move or close a thread that contains flaming, trolling, and mudslinging, then that sends me the message that "overly-emotional arguments are not acceptable" and that's fine.

However, when you take a thread that -- at a superficial glance -- could be labelled as anti-4e, but upon closer inspection, turns out to be almost exclusively civil and respectful, with constructive criticism and tips for improvement, and you effectively sign a death warrant by Burial-In-Megathread, then the message I get is "We don't want constructive criticism about 4e, we will bury such comments in a megathread where no developer will ever see it -- WoTC has their own sources for feedback about 4E but this forum is not one of them". However mistaken, that is the impression I get.

As stated on the other board, its not just anti 4e thats getting it man, its the pro 4e stuff too...whatever looks to them like something that could possibly be material that could start a fight (or already has) seems to get tossed into the megathread instead of just kicking out anyone that crosses over into the other side to troll the people they disagree with.
#12
relbanan
Jun 24, 2008 8:51:57 I'd like to see a subforum under General Discussion for edition wars type stuff, and moderators stomping on people doing it in the main forum.
#13
artytoo_dup
Jun 24, 2008 9:17:48
As stated on the other board, its not just anti 4e thats getting it man, its the pro 4e stuff too...whatever looks to them like something that could possibly be material that could start a fight (or already has) seems to get tossed into the megathread instead of just kicking out anyone that crosses over into the other side to troll the people they disagree with.

Oh... oh... well, to use a bit of hyperbole, that's like communist Thought Police who arrest you based on their own prognostication but not for any actual crime on your part.

I would suggest that threads could be tagged in the same way that Wikipedia pages have those alert boxes. If a thread is implicated in bad behavior, a moderator could put the thread on "probation" and a big obvious alert box appears on top of each thread page (it shouldn't be buried in a post somewhere in the thread, because most newcomers won't see it). The "probation" alert would include a short and sweet explanation (not just a link to a long terms of use article, because most people won't read it). Each thread on probation might have a "three strikes, you're out" policy. If there are specific posts that are unacceptable, they should be wiped with a cookie-cutter warning from the moderator, but not actually deleted (like on imdb.com's forum)
#14
thecasualoblivion
Jun 24, 2008 9:23:21 They now have an edition wars dumping thread to dump into. Nice.

Now if only they could find some decent way to deal with the edition wars threadcrapping discussions that have nothing to do with the editon war.
#15
Pangur
Jun 24, 2008 11:57:54
A lot of people when they get some "great new insight" about 4e -whether "4e rocks" or "4e sucks"- seem to feel the need to make a new thread rather than post in one of the existing threads and those threads are just clutter.

I think you mean "rather than post in the one existing thread". ;)
#16
Webster
Jun 24, 2008 21:37:39
Wouldn't it make more sense to take everyone that like 4e and put them in one mega thread so they could talk about the things they like and dislike and then put everyone that says its terrible into another mega thread so they can discuss how much better edition X is? It just seems like the mega thread is a no mans land where the moderators no longer have to deal with the people who were fighting. Maybe this is just me though.

I actually considered two separate threads, but I can tell you exactly what would happen.

Pro 4e folks would jump on the anti 4e thread and cause problems.

Anti 4e folks would jump on the pro 4e thread and cause problems.

Then there would be some sort of race to make their individual thread "bigger", thereby somehow "winning". "Ha! Our thread has more posts, therefore we're right, we win and you lose!" Spam galore.
#17
altondelamourne
Jun 25, 2008 6:39:02
I actually considered two separate threads, but I can tell you exactly what would happen.

Pro 4e folks would jump on the anti 4e thread and cause problems.

Anti 4e folks would jump on the pro 4e thread and cause problems.

Then there would be some sort of race to make their individual thread "bigger", thereby somehow "winning". "Ha! Our thread has more posts, therefore we're right, we win and you lose!" Spam galore.

Haha! I've never really thought about it that way...but your probably right. Our hobby has some strange individuals.
#18
Dracomortis
Jun 28, 2008 19:23:51
It's understandable that you're trying to improve the noise-to-info level, and we appreciate that, it's just frustrating that several threads with good info/discussions have been derailed and then Borged, never to be seen again...

Perhaps this post by WizO_Tao might clarify a bit. It is my understanding that essentially the WizOs have lost the ability to remove specific posts as well as the ability to move threads.
#19
wrecan
Jun 29, 2008 18:15:50 That is inaccurate. The WizOs can still move and remove posts and threads. They are not allowed to do so on the basis of the post or thread being off-topic. Editorial moderation is the province of the Volunteer Community Leaders.
#20
Artifact
Jun 29, 2008 20:15:01 My main gripe is the thread merging.

I have completely lost track of the "House rules, house rules, house rules" thread. I have absolutely no idea where it is now. It has disappeared entirely from my subscribed threads page. I figure it's prolly in the "Initial Impressions" mega-thread but who knows? Frustrating.

The edition wars were absent from that discussion and I was following it with some interest; now, I've lost it completely. The thread merging just seems to be way too heavy handed. Is it helping more than hurting?
#21
relbanan
Jun 29, 2008 20:55:50
The edition wars were absent from that discussion and I was following it with some interest; now, I've lost it completely. The thread merging just seems to be way too heavy handed. Is it helping more than hurting?

I sure think so. I'd much prefer to see moderating done at the post level, not the thread level. If someone's baiting, edit/delete their post and give them an appropriate slap - warning to ban, whatever.

The megathread is a joke. It's impossible to follow a discussion once it gets moved there, and ending up subscribed to that garbage thread (AGAIN AND AGAIN) is really annoying.
#22
calronmoonflower
Jun 29, 2008 21:58:47 My main grip would be the deletion of the 4th Edition Motivators thread and the moving of the second one to the off-topic forum.

I understand way the 4th Edition Motivators thread got locked, but it wasn't necessary to delete it and it was against policy as I understand it. It could have been left locked or merged with the new version that was started after the initial lock.

Now the moving of the second version of that thread really doesn't make sense. The very point was to make motivators about 4th, how it that off-topic?

Now it seems doomed to die like a plant without sunlight.

My main gripe is the thread merging.

That is quite a pain, but is in response to literally dozens of threads that say basically much the exact same things.

Is it helping more than hurting?

I'd say 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Actual arguments with a point get lost, but the general forum isn't being chocked to death by hoards of threads with the exact same topic. If the proliferation of posts blunted that wouldn't happen and there would be no point to the megathread.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 davidrmurrell Jun 24, 2008 8:28:46	Woh, can the Mods and VCL chill a bit. At the time of writing this over half the front page of General Discussions forum is either locked or moved. May be one of you enlightened souls can tell us what is 'General' rather than stuck in the mega thread of death, so we discuss that? I realise that there are some flame wars, but since you are dealing with the threads rather than individual posters, all that is happening that this board is beginning to look a mess.
#2 Webster Jun 24, 2008 8:35:33	Yes, we're cleaning things up a bit, consolidating many of the threads that are similar, and moving others where they belong. You'll notice many of the redirects have been removed, and most (if not all) of the current ones are on a clock and will disappear. That way the board will look cleaner.
#3 relbanan Jun 24, 2008 8:37:17	It'd be nice if they could moderate the threads rather than just merge all of them into that mess. Every time someone adds a 4e vs 3e comment the whole thread gets absorbed by the Borg. How about just moderating the offending posts, and temp-banning people who won't stop doing it?
#4 ORC_Nashira Jun 24, 2008 8:38:37	Moved at VCL request.
#5 relbanan Jun 24, 2008 8:39:23	Yes, we're cleaning things up a bit, consolidating many of the threads that are similar, and moving others where they belong. It's understandable that you're trying to improve the noise-to-info level, and we appreciate that, it's just frustrating that several threads with good info/discussions have been derailed and then Borged, never to be seen again...
#6 dcanderson Jun 24, 2008 8:42:42	It'd be nice if they could moderate the threads rather than just merge all of them into that mess. Every time someone adds a 4e vs 3e comment the whole thread gets absorbed by the Borg. How about just moderating the offending posts, and temp-banning people who won't stop doing it? The ones that get merged usually started out as edition wars threads from the OP anyway. A lot of people when they get some "great new insight" about 4e -whether "4e rocks" or "4e sucks"- seem to feel the need to make a new thread rather than post in one of the existing threads and those threads are just clutter.
#7 altondelamourne Jun 24, 2008 8:46:55	I agree with this. It seems that the way the board is trying to deal with the edition wars is to just capture every fight thread, scoop everyone up (even the ones that aren't fighting) and dump them into a huge thread. This seems kind of silly, being that you want us to stick to threads and not drop into each others threads and harrass each other. Unfortunately, when you drop all the conversations into the same 'mega thread' (whether positive about an edition or negative) you're basically setting up an arena like event where suddenly all the people that hate each others opinions are face to face. Wouldn't it make more sense to take everyone that like 4e and put them in one mega thread so they could talk about the things they like and dislike and then put everyone that says its terrible into another mega thread so they can discuss how much better edition X is? It just seems like the mega thread is a no mans land where the moderators no longer have to deal with the people who were fighting. Maybe this is just me though.
#8 relbanan Jun 24, 2008 8:47:08	Yeah, I understand the difficulty of moderating a big board, it's just frustrating to see good info vanish.
#9 artytoo_dup Jun 24, 2008 8:47:59	Yes, we're cleaning things up a bit, consolidating many of the threads that are similar, and moving others where they belong When you move or close a thread that contains flaming, trolling, and mudslinging, then that sends me the message that "overly-emotional arguments are not acceptable" and that's fine. However, when you take a thread that -- at a superficial glance -- could be labelled as anti-4e, but upon closer inspection, turns out to be almost exclusively civil and respectful, with constructive criticism and tips for improvement, and you effectively sign a death warrant by Burial-In-Megathread, then the message I get is "We don't want constructive criticism about 4e, we will bury such comments in a megathread where no developer will ever see it -- WoTC has their own sources for feedback about 4E but this forum is not one of them". However mistaken, that is the impression I get.
#10 davidrmurrell Jun 24, 2008 8:48:19	Hahaahahaha! Should rename this as ...Moving in...3...2...1! :P
#11 altondelamourne Jun 24, 2008 8:50:21	When you move or close a thread that contains flaming, trolling, and mudslinging, then that sends me the message that "overly-emotional arguments are not acceptable" and that's fine. However, when you take a thread that -- at a superficial glance -- could be labelled as anti-4e, but upon closer inspection, turns out to be almost exclusively civil and respectful, with constructive criticism and tips for improvement, and you effectively sign a death warrant by Burial-In-Megathread, then the message I get is "We don't want constructive criticism about 4e, we will bury such comments in a megathread where no developer will ever see it -- WoTC has their own sources for feedback about 4E but this forum is not one of them". However mistaken, that is the impression I get. As stated on the other board, its not just anti 4e thats getting it man, its the pro 4e stuff too...whatever looks to them like something that could possibly be material that could start a fight (or already has) seems to get tossed into the megathread instead of just kicking out anyone that crosses over into the other side to troll the people they disagree with.
#12 relbanan Jun 24, 2008 8:51:57	I'd like to see a subforum under General Discussion for edition wars type stuff, and moderators stomping on people doing it in the main forum.
#13 artytoo_dup Jun 24, 2008 9:17:48	As stated on the other board, its not just anti 4e thats getting it man, its the pro 4e stuff too...whatever looks to them like something that could possibly be material that could start a fight (or already has) seems to get tossed into the megathread instead of just kicking out anyone that crosses over into the other side to troll the people they disagree with. Oh... oh... well, to use a bit of hyperbole, that's like communist Thought Police who arrest you based on their own prognostication but not for any actual crime on your part. I would suggest that threads could be tagged in the same way that Wikipedia pages have those alert boxes. If a thread is implicated in bad behavior, a moderator could put the thread on "probation" and a big obvious alert box appears on top of each thread page (it shouldn't be buried in a post somewhere in the thread, because most newcomers won't see it). The "probation" alert would include a short and sweet explanation (not just a link to a long terms of use article, because most people won't read it). Each thread on probation might have a "three strikes, you're out" policy. If there are specific posts that are unacceptable, they should be wiped with a cookie-cutter warning from the moderator, but not actually deleted (like on imdb.com's forum)
#14 thecasualoblivion Jun 24, 2008 9:23:21	They now have an edition wars dumping thread to dump into. Nice. Now if only they could find some decent way to deal with the edition wars threadcrapping discussions that have nothing to do with the editon war.
#15 Pangur Jun 24, 2008 11:57:54	A lot of people when they get some "great new insight" about 4e -whether "4e rocks" or "4e sucks"- seem to feel the need to make a new thread rather than post in one of the existing threads and those threads are just clutter. I think you mean "rather than post in the one existing thread". ;)
#16 Webster Jun 24, 2008 21:37:39	Wouldn't it make more sense to take everyone that like 4e and put them in one mega thread so they could talk about the things they like and dislike and then put everyone that says its terrible into another mega thread so they can discuss how much better edition X is? It just seems like the mega thread is a no mans land where the moderators no longer have to deal with the people who were fighting. Maybe this is just me though. I actually considered two separate threads, but I can tell you exactly what would happen. Pro 4e folks would jump on the anti 4e thread and cause problems. Anti 4e folks would jump on the pro 4e thread and cause problems. Then there would be some sort of race to make their individual thread "bigger", thereby somehow "winning". "Ha! Our thread has more posts, therefore we're right, we win and you lose!" Spam galore.
#17 altondelamourne Jun 25, 2008 6:39:02	I actually considered two separate threads, but I can tell you exactly what would happen. Pro 4e folks would jump on the anti 4e thread and cause problems. Anti 4e folks would jump on the pro 4e thread and cause problems. Then there would be some sort of race to make their individual thread "bigger", thereby somehow "winning". "Ha! Our thread has more posts, therefore we're right, we win and you lose!" Spam galore. Haha! I've never really thought about it that way...but your probably right. Our hobby has some strange individuals.
#18 Dracomortis Jun 28, 2008 19:23:51	It's understandable that you're trying to improve the noise-to-info level, and we appreciate that, it's just frustrating that several threads with good info/discussions have been derailed and then Borged, never to be seen again... Perhaps this post by WizO_Tao might clarify a bit. It is my understanding that essentially the WizOs have lost the ability to remove specific posts as well as the ability to move threads.
#19 wrecan Jun 29, 2008 18:15:50	That is inaccurate. The WizOs can still move and remove posts and threads. They are not allowed to do so on the basis of the post or thread being off-topic. Editorial moderation is the province of the Volunteer Community Leaders.
#20 Artifact Jun 29, 2008 20:15:01	My main gripe is the thread merging. I have completely lost track of the "House rules, house rules, house rules" thread. I have absolutely no idea where it is now. It has disappeared entirely from my subscribed threads page. I figure it's prolly in the "Initial Impressions" mega-thread but who knows? Frustrating. The edition wars were absent from that discussion and I was following it with some interest; now, I've lost it completely. The thread merging just seems to be way too heavy handed. Is it helping more than hurting?
#21 relbanan Jun 29, 2008 20:55:50	The edition wars were absent from that discussion and I was following it with some interest; now, I've lost it completely. The thread merging just seems to be way too heavy handed. Is it helping more than hurting? I sure think so. I'd much prefer to see moderating done at the post level, not the thread level. If someone's baiting, edit/delete their post and give them an appropriate slap - warning to ban, whatever. The megathread is a joke. It's impossible to follow a discussion once it gets moved there, and ending up subscribed to that garbage thread (AGAIN AND AGAIN) is really annoying.
#22 calronmoonflower Jun 29, 2008 21:58:47	My main grip would be the deletion of the 4th Edition Motivators thread and the moving of the second one to the off-topic forum. I understand way the 4th Edition Motivators thread got locked, but it wasn't necessary to delete it and it was against policy as I understand it. It could have been left locked or merged with the new version that was started after the initial lock. Now the moving of the second version of that thread really doesn't make sense. The very point was to make motivators about 4th, how it that off-topic? Now it seems doomed to die like a plant without sunlight. My main gripe is the thread merging. That is quite a pain, but is in response to literally dozens of threads that say basically much the exact same things. Is it helping more than hurting? I'd say 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Actual arguments with a point get lost, but the general forum isn't being chocked to death by hoards of threads with the exact same topic. If the proliferation of posts blunted that wouldn't happen and there would be no point to the megathread.