So, how do we, as a community, improve the signal to noise ratio on these boards?
That said: I hope it gets better. But how, I do not know.
I have been hoping that for a real long time now....
Let me guess for nearly half a year at least?
Thats my wait-time.
yep, you got it in one
A) ends confrontation
B) ends thread
either way it works.
So, how do we, as a community, improve the signal to noise ratio on these boards?
Dissenting opinions in a discussion forum are not "noise." I find your attitude more disruptive than any number of so-called "nay-sayer" threads.
If by "signal" you mean rules use and development, there are now about 30 separate and distinct forums for every possible facet of D&D4 crunch in this section of the message boards. If you would prefer not to read negative issues of general discussion, I recommend posting in one of those. "Nay-sayers" certainly do not belong there, and with the current fervor for thread-moving, they definitely will not remain for long should they stumble in.
Dissenting opinions in a discussion forum are not "noise." I find your attitude more disruptive than any number of so-called "nay-sayer" threads.
Discussing into an argument-specific thread is fine. Hijacking other people's threads is not. This is the problem.
Discussing into an argument-specific thread is fine. Hijacking other people's threads is not. This is the problem.
Agreed. But that was not the original poster's argument. He refers specifically to "baiting threads." I take that in context to mean "threads created for the purposes of baiting D&D4 fans."
I don't support baiting D&D4 fans, but I dislike this forum's tendency to label anyone with a gripe against D&D4 as a 'baiter.' It is possible to have legitimate negative opinions about D&D4. Like it or hate it, everyone has to agree that it is a contentious issue.
Agreed. But that was not the original poster's argument. He refers specifically to "baiting threads." I take that in context to mean "threads created for the purposes of baiting D&D4 fans."
I don't support baiting D&D4 fans, but I dislike this forum's tendency to label anyone with a gripe against D&D4 as a 'baiter.' It is possible to have legitimate negative opinions about D&D4. Like it or hate it, everyone has to agree that it is a contentious issue.
I understand now, shame on me. However, I'm still against those people. What's the point in everyone having his own little "I hate 4th ed" thread, besides annoying people who've chosen to frequent the 4th edition boards?
Sure, they may be identifying what is, in their mind, a valid grievance. However, what are they trying to accomplish with their post? WOTC isn't going to drop 4e and go back to 3.5e. WOTC is also not interfering with the ability to play earlier editions of D&D; indeed, they may even be helping them play, as the value of earlier edition's books is lower.
So, then why are these people posting about things that aren't going to be changed? They're posting to whine, moan, and complain, because it is change, and for whatever reason, these people are averse to it.
The effect is that they start out a little bit opposed to 4e, then, as they go in with a negative mindset, find other things that irritate them (or interpret things to irritate themselves), and have more reasons to hate 4e, until they become a whining, moaning troll who is diametrically opposed to 4e on grounds that are rather weak. I have a friend like this; he cited the Facebook application for D&D as how 4e is all sorts of horrible.
I understand now, shame on me. However, I'm still against those people. What's the point in everyone having his own little "I hate 4th ed" thread, besides annoying people who've chosen to frequent the 4th edition boards?
Sure, but there's only so many threads I can take where the OP's thesis is, "4th edition is terrible because....". I mean, exactly what is the point behind these threads?
I'm not positive about this, so bear with me, but I think there is a slim possibility that these posters' point might be that D&D4 is terrible. Just a guess. I could be wrong.
Sure, they may be identifying what is, in their mind, a valid grievance.
Excuse me? Who the hell are you to determine what is and is not a valid grievance?
So, then why are these people posting about things that aren't going to be changed?
The entire point of discussion is bringing dissenting opinions to the table in the hopes of reaching a consensus. The idea is to convince others of the validity of your point of view, either through powerful oratory or sheer numbers. D&D4 "haters" post because they want Wizards to know there is something (or many things) about D&D4 they do not like and want to see changed.
I would not go as far as to say that it is a common occurrence, but Wizards does listen to these boards. The community got them to abandon the stupid D&D3 core book release strategy they had planned to use again for D&D4, and we were able to buy all three books in June. You are correct when you say that Wizards isn't going to abandon D&D4 and return to D&D3.5. It would not be an unheard of thing, but the community response in this case has not been negative enough. Plenty of people like D&D4. But if enough people were to come out in opposition to a particular element of D&D4, Wizards would be foolish not to address those concerns.
They're posting to whine, moan, and complain, because it is change, and for whatever reason, these people are averse to it.
Clearly, because the only reason to oppose change is that it is change. Nothing ever changes for the worse.
The effect is that they start out a little bit opposed to 4e, then, as they go in with a negative mindset, find other things that irritate them (or interpret things to irritate themselves), and have more reasons to hate 4e, until they become a whining, moaning troll who is diametrically opposed to 4e on grounds that are rather weak. I have a friend like this; he cited the Facebook application for D&D as how 4e is all sorts of horrible.
That's interesting. I find that D&D4 fanboys start out really wanting to like D&D4, as they go in with a determined mindset, find other things that make them more confident (or interpret things in an optimistic way), and find more reasons to like D&D4, until they become a whining, moaning troll who is fanatically supportive of D&D4 on grounds that are rather weak. I have a friend like this; he cited the Skill Challenge RAW as how D&D4 is all sorts of awesome.
I don't hate D&D4. I run it for about 20 hours a month, on average, and I'm knee-deep in setting up an ongoing LFR game at my FLGS. D&D4 is a fun game, and I am told it is even more fun from the other side of the screen. It also has flaws -- big flaws I would like to see fixed before the game gets more established. And I don't appreciate being told that I am not welcome to bring up these flaws here. I like D&D4. But it could be a lot better than it is, and I want to see that happen. You are in my way.
I say again -- I find your attitude and the attitudes of people like you to be just as toxic, if not more so, than those of the players who come here to complain about shortcomings they see in D&D4. They, at least, are interested in discussion. Your ilk are interested only in censorship. And I've about had enough of it.
People don't like 4e - or parts of it. They come here to gripe a bit and see if others find trouble with the same parts they do. They may even want suggestions about how they can change whatever they don't like. The idea is that if they voice their issue and find support, maybe - just maybe - they will find the same luck that the people who had problems with 3e found and have their wishes granted in the new edition.
Many of the 4e fanatics that hate on the h4ters were more than likely 3e haters themselves. Remember, guys, griping produced change the last go-round. Since it worked, it should be fairly obvious that some may take this tack to get their issues looked at. And you blazed that particular trail yourselves. ;)
It's already been said, but it bears repeating. The fanatical zeal with which some of the pro-4e people approach this edition and any who dare voice discontent is part of the problem, too. When I see threads in which pro-4e guys spread misinformation or change arguments, it makes me sick. The various opinions stated as adamant fact to get some pro-4e backslapping in are repulsive. You want this stuff to stop? Don't reply to the idiots that say 4e is teh suk and give you no more than that. And don't respond to the guys that have valid concerns the same way you respond to trolls. The repeated and unwavering drum-beat of 4e perfection is annoying. 4e is not perfect. And there's plenty of people here tired of being treated to that approach. In short, don't be part of the problem. Refusing to see any criticism as valid because you feel 4e is god's own game is painfully silly. Stop it.
Many of the 4e fanatics that hate on the h4ters were more than likely 3e haters themselves.
If there's one thing American politics have taught me, it is that there are three political parties: Republican, Democratic, and Undecided. The Republicans will always vote Republican, no matter how bad their candidate is. The Democrats will always vote Democratic, despite similar issues. It's the Undecided who, ironically, decide the balance of power in the US, and the D&D community works much the same way. We have Fanatics, Malcontents, and our own Undecided. The Undecided might change their opinions about D&D one way or the other when a new edition is released, but I think the Fanatics are always Fanatics and the Malcontents always Malcontents, no matter what the circumstance. I know I've always been a Malcontent, at any rate. I don't believe in "good enough."
Just because a Fanatic for D&D4 rails on about how much better than D&D3.5 it is does not mean they weren't doing exactly the same thing for D&D3.5 over D&D3, D&D3 over AD&D2, and AD&D2 over AD&D. It's in the blood.
My analysis has shown me good and bad things about the game. I've found that people tend to try to polarize you into one of two camps - it's easier to see people as caricatures, in that sense. I prefer those who acknowledge the good, and the bad. I prefer Pathfinder, at the moment, but I see things that 4E does better. More to the point, I see things 4E does *the same* - things I like about *both* games, which were not present in 3e.
Gaming is still evolving and growing - progress is good. The problem is, sometimes there are bumps in the road - failed experiments. 4E fails, but succeeds on other counts. It's the discussion of those failures and triumphs that benefits us all. Without that, the heart and soul of discussion is gone - we're just parroting empty platitudes, useless affirmations of support for a failing product. We can do better, and we owe it to ourselves to do so.
Just because a Fanatic for D&D4 rails on about how much better than D&D3.5 it is does not mean they weren't doing exactly the same thing for D&D3.5 over D&D3, D&D3 over AD&D2, and AD&D2 over AD&D. It's in the blood.
That was what I was trying to get at, actually. The guys bashing the people bashing 4e were probably the guys that bashed 3e before 4e came out. Hmm. That's not a better way of explaining it, ZB! Oh well, suffice it so say I meant to say pretty much what you're saying here. Oh crap. I've done it again ... :D
I'm dissatisfied with 4E. I ran it for several months. I'm still playing it. When people post problems with 4E, it's generally because they're *playing*, they experience the legitimate flaws, and want to share their opinions and experiences with others. If this isn't "valuable" I don't know what is - actual experience and analysis of the game? That's what it's all about.
This is the problem in a nutshell. Some D&D4 supporters equate negative opinions today with negative opinions in May 2008, and the fact is that a lot has changed since May, most notably the release of the freaking game.
It's the discussion of those failures and triumphs that benefits us all. Without that, the heart and soul of discussion is gone - we're just parroting empty platitudes, useless affirmations of support for a failing product. We can do better, and we owe it to ourselves to do so.
Good post, Rant Casey. You're tempting me to rewrite my manifesto for brevity so that I can take it out of the sblock in my sig. Then someone might actually read it.
I think this thread belongs more appropriately in community discussion.
Don't make me come over there!
