I am expressing polite disappointment in the lack of updates for Character Builder and the somewhat cavalier attitude the people at corporate seem to display over it. I wish their notification had been more public, indeed they could have easily spelled it out in a dragon article that was plainly and easily accessible. I didn’t receive the email announcing their choice to push back the updates, my wife didn’t; receive it and no one I personally know received it.
I understand that the new essentials (scheduled for months) may require extra work. While I respect the desire of the company to keep profits for shareholders as high as possible. To me not hiring extra help when such need is calendared well in advance shows a lack of planning, management and concern for their customers.
I think if Time magazine missed sending out an issue they would see it as a major problem for their subscribers. If macafee stopped updating for a month they would see it as a big deal for their paying subscribers.
As a customer I expect to receive what I am promised and pay for, or come away with the feeling that the choice by the organization to not deliver what I pay for is considered a big deal by the organization.
I understand that the new essentials (scheduled for months) may require extra work. While I respect the desire of the company to keep profits for shareholders as high as possible. To me not hiring extra help when such need is calendared well in advance shows a lack of planning, management and concern for their customers. It also perhaps shows that meeting earnings projections by not staffing appropriately may also be more important than their paying customers.
I would like to add that I am not grousing about a small “mom and pop” website not doing what they said they would. WOTC is part of a large corporate enterprise and I would think that their reputation would have value to them.
I suspect that even though they are not delivering to my wife and I(we each pay for separate accounts) the promised product (update), they will still auto bill us without hesitation, and if like other aspects of the web presence are delayed long term or permanently I am certain that no retroactive refund will be offered while we have waited.
I purchased both dark sun and psionic power in aug, and had wanted to use them to build characters or an upcoming game.
Yes I do realize that I could use pen and paper, however when updated the character builder is a very good tool and our GM definitely prefers that we use it.
I respect their right to treat customers as they wish and both my wife and I will not cancel our subscriptions or anything overwrought or silly.
I do think that the organization and its management owe the paying suscribers an apology for not meeting their obligations while taking our money. An apology posted publically and not simply posted on a message forum.
I’m sure many of you support the corporation’s actions and I respect those views as well.
..I purchased both dark sun and psionic power in aug, and had wanted to use them to build characters or an upcoming game.
...
Hey me too! My subscription expires in Oct so I'm dying to see what they do.
Frankly, that strikes me as unprofessional. And, as a standing customer, I feel somewhat slighted. They won't lose my business if the next update is extra large, but they do get a frowny face.
There. I hope that makes them feel guilty and a little bit awkward. In fact, here's a cry-y face to show that I mean business.
If you read the EULA you agreed to when signing up for DDi, you'll see WotC have covered themselves. Legally, they're not obliged to provide updates every month. You are not legally entitled to any compensation due to a lack of updates this month. However, WotC have been refunding the cost of this month's subscription to those who email CS to complain, presumably as a good-will gesture.
It would be nice if they issued a blanket refund to every DDi subscriber, without us having to email them, but it's possible there might be legal implications to doing that (i.e. that it could be construed as WotC admitting liability). But IANAL.
Personally, I don't care about the money. I just want to know this isn't going to happen again.
- The DDI Announcements forum.
- The DDI General Discussion forum.
- The DDI Group.
They made an annoucement about DDI in three places.
- The DDI Announcements forum.
- The DDI General Discussion forum.
- The DDI Group.
Not the best places since not a lot of people go there. 4e General would have been wiser... if they really wanted people to know about it.
So putting information about DDI in the places specific to DDI is a bad thing?
If people want information about DDI, then the DDI forums and the DDI group are the places to go.
If people want information about DDI, then the DDI forums and the DDI group are the places to go.
This is the internet! Logic is not permitted here, sir.
The reasons I stay a DDI customer are:
1) The magazines, if they are the only factor, cost me about 3-4 bucks apiece. Now while there is a volumnous amount of writing on the Forums about how disappointing the 'zines are now I still see value in them. They, at the very least, give me some writing to read on a regular basis and keep me current of the thought surrounding D&D presently.
2) The art is worth some money on its own. I have downloaded copious amounts of pictures from DDI that I consider being invaluable (given that I appreciate good art for what it's worth)
3) The compendium, on it's own is worth a couple bucks too. The fact that I don't have to risk comprimising my system by downloading an illegal pdf is worth something to me too. I don't regularly break copyright law if I don't have to and enjoy having a copypasta option available to print out "powers/etc." for my PCs.
4) The news and release previews, while not worth much to me on a financial level are, at least, nice to see and I appreciate being ahead of the curve, as far as being a consumer goes.
Before you bitch me out too much, consider this: I've been playing D&D since the late seventies / early eighties and I have invested more than a fair amount of money in the companies. Also, TSR was nowhere near the corporation that WoTC (a subsidiary of Hasbro) has become. The amount of products being put out staggers the mind and the prices are more than fair. I WOULD HAVE KILLED TO HAVE SOME OF THESE PRODUCTS AS A KID. I had minis, we spent an arm and a leg on the Solid Gold Line which included Haflings and Hirelings. There were no grids or Dungeon Tiles, although they were written of in the DUNGEON MASTER'S GUIDE.
Yes, it's a corporation. I have worked as part of the Evil Empire and I know this: Corporations are in the practice of making money, nothing more nothing less. The people who love and care about D&D are more than likely overworked, underpaid, and taken for granted more than not.
Corporate isn't going to spring for programmers, that isn't going to make them money. How often do you get more than what Wizard's is offering from a Corporation?
Telcos, Video and Communication conglamerates all have inflated prices for services that many belief should be free. I spend far too much on an internet connection and I can tell you with pride that I can remember the days of 2600 baud dial-up connections. If we refer to Time/Warner, we are refering to one of the most evil corporations on the planet Earth. They care little about their customers and run the numbers based solely on demographics. If they can save money by cutting corners and offering the discontent a "partial refund' they will do so. Do not believe for a single minute otherwise. They only care about their profits.
I look at people like James, and Bruce, and Robert et.all with a little bit of jealousy, a little bit of empathy, and a little bit of admiration. Sure, they have what seems on the surface to be a "dream job" but at the end of the day it's still a job. More often than not, they receive primarily negative criticism, and while I am also guilty of this I do aspire to keep them feeling appreciated. Without someone to put up with all the harsh criticism and near constant schedual of work, the game would not be what it is today, let alone be around at all.
Look at what happened to Gary, he had TSR taken from him and D&D could have figuratively gone into "the dark ages" in terms of business management
Yes there are things that frustrate me about WotC and D&D 4e, but on the whole I appreciate it and try to work with it before I scream blue murder. If this method doesn't appeal to you, take the refund and quit bitching. No one is listening except the tireless few. Corporate doesn't care and it never will.
And if, by some miracle Linux ever gets supported for the DDI Tools, I will celebrate accordingly. When I wrote Customer Service though, they told me not to hold my breath...
They made an annoucement about DDI in three places.
- The DDI Announcements forum.
- The DDI General Discussion forum.
- The DDI Group.
DDI has forums? *boggle*
Just kidding. However, given that it is a paid service and the company keeps email addresses on hand, emails should definitely have gone out to all subscribers. Announcing it in the community forums and a community group doesn't seem like trying to reach your target audience to me, as bass-ackwards as that sounds, because they aren't heavily trafficked. Most people check their email addys though.
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I really don't care there isn't an update. Nor do I think WotC is necessarily in the wrong for cancelling, nor do I think that WotC was required to notify us at all. But if they really wanted to put out a notification, they should have used email. And if they tried but for some reason it never made it to the subscribers (for either technical or process reasons), they should probably look into that.
They did send out a broadcast to the DDI group which is then automatically sent out as an email. However, some people have blocked broadcasts in their WotC community site settings, resulting in them not getting the email. As well, some people had it sent to their spam folder. Now, there were also some problems with the system itself, in that some emails were't sent out, but WotC has assured me that those problems have been fixed.
They made an annoucement about DDI in three places.
- The DDI Announcements forum.
- The DDI General Discussion forum.
- The DDI Group.
Not the best places since not a lot of people go there. 4e General would have been wiser... if they really wanted people to know about it.
So putting information about DDI in the places specific to DDI is a bad thing?
If people want information about DDI, then the DDI forums and the DDI group are the places to go.
I agree, but people do not go there, mainly because their is no info there. Look at the number of posts and the number of people who checked them out. Those places are dead. People might just forget about those forums. I didn't even know the DDI group existed.
Kind of puts them in a Catch 22. They get dinged for not communicating, but when they do, they get dinged if it it's not organized right. So they put information about specific things in areas designated just for that, and they get dinged because people don't go there to find that information.
They send out and email, and get dinged for that by people who have broadcast emails turned off, because they wanted people to have options.
And if they forced everyone to get an email to the address they provided when they signed up, they would get dinged by those that don't want them. They would get dinged by people who's computers marked it as spam. They would get dinged because someone used an email account that use for signing up to things so all email can go there, but they never check.
They can't win.
They send out and email, and get dinged for that by people who have broadcast emails turned off, ... They would get dinged by people who's computers marked it as spam. They would get dinged because someone used an email account that use for signing up to things so all email can go there, but they never check.
I don't have broadcast emails turned off. My spam filters are set to allow email from WotC. The email asking me to renew my subscription got through just fine. And I check my inbox regularly.
I still didn't get the email.
Yeah, sometimes WotC gets "dinged" through no fault of their own by people who are impossible to please. And sometimes they get "dinged" by perfectly reasonable people because they've screwed up.
I say credit because it makes more sense. A refund means they not only received the magazines for free, but they need not pay for October. A credit means they're guaranteed to be paying for October. There's bound to be some number of people who drop out in protest, likely after securing a refund.
This would also be yet another a situation where an actual news feed on the website would make sense. Somewhere they could say that there was a content delay unrelated to the Community site which not everyone belongs to. I was flabbergasted when I saw they'd updated the website yet not actually fixed any of the problems with the old design. Specifically the fact it's still easier to go to ENWorld looking for official news.
I don't have broadcast emails turned off. My spam filters are set to allow email from WotC. The email asking me to renew my subscription got through just fine. And I check my inbox regularly.
I still didn't get the email.
Yeah, sometimes WotC gets "dinged" through no fault of their own by people who are impossible to please. And sometimes they get "dinged" by perfectly reasonable people because they've screwed up.
But they've already acknowledged that particular mistake multiple times and corrected the issue. Nonetheless, they're being dinged in this thread for a lack of communication, despite communicating across multiple redundant channels.
You say screw up, I say technical difficulties the likes of which happen in every company of any size despite which you STILL had access to all the information you needed.
Dane_McArdy is 100% right.
I don't have broadcast emails turned off. My spam filters are set to allow email from WotC. The email asking me to renew my subscription got through just fine. And I check my inbox regularly.
I still didn't get the email.
Yeah, sometimes WotC gets "dinged" through no fault of their own by people who are impossible to please. And sometimes they get "dinged" by perfectly reasonable people because they've screwed up.
But they've already acknowledged that particular mistake multiple times and corrected the issue. Nonetheless, they're being dinged in this thread for a lack of communication, despite communicating across multiple redundant channels.
See, that's the part that gets me. They tried several different ways to get the message out. I mean clearly that's making an effort to change from when they didn't. And they are getting dinged by people over the fact they posted in a forum that reader doesn't go to.
They announced it in the DDi Announcements forum. Lots of people (including myself) did not receive the email notification, which is an issue in itself, but the delay and later cancellation of the September update were publically announced.
If you read the EULA you agreed to when signing up for DDi, you'll see WotC have covered themselves. Legally, they're not obliged to provide updates every month. You are not legally entitled to any compensation due to a lack of updates this month. However, WotC have been refunding the cost of this month's subscription to those who email CS to complain, presumably as a good-will gesture.
It would be nice if they issued a blanket refund to every DDi subscriber, without us having to email them, but it's possible there might be legal implications to doing that (i.e. that it could be construed as WotC admitting liability). But IANAL.
Personally, I don't care about the money. I just want to know this isn't going to happen again.
EULA's are pretty laughable when it comes to things that are actually legally binding. Just sayin'
So, when's our October update coming? I really REALLY hope it doesn't take all month. Again.
So, when's our October update coming? I really REALLY hope it doesn't take all month. Again.
We all hope lots of things. Most of those things aren't going to happen either.
They made an annoucement about DDI in three places.
- The DDI Announcements forum.
- The DDI General Discussion forum.
- The DDI Group.
It probably doesn't help that the INsider forum group is the last 4e section on a fairly long list of forums - below errata even. It probably deserves being elevated above the 'Worlds' section if its to be given some visibility.
- A whole new concept (read, entire new tab under Build) in Themes
- Multiple new builds, several of which don't follow the standard class structure (which may, to some extent, be hard-coded)
- An unusual amount of erratta, including pretty extensive rebuilding of the race selection process among other well-established things that other things may depend on
- An entirely new structure for the Feats section
- Major changes to magic items that may require extensively rebuilding the Shop screen
- Large-scale monster updates, even if they stick to monsters that appear in the adventures published so far for Essentials (let alone if they update them properly, which would require essentially rewriting the entire MM1)
- Probably other stuff I've forgotten
This is not a routine update, and it's not that surprising that it would take longer than projected. Software development is like that.
Also, adding more people to a software development project - the main suggestion from the OP - is rarely a good way to get it finished faster, between getting them up to speed and exponentially increasing the chances of getting people working at cross-purposes. In fact, it is considered one of the most common mistakes made by bad or inexperienced managers who know little about software engineering. For every seemingly intractable problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and completely wrong, and when it comes to sofware development "add new people" is usually it.
Don't get me wrong, WotC is clearly appalling at developing computer-based support for their products. The only thing worse than their ability to do so themselves is their choice of partners to outsource it to (case in point: OneSite). It's entirely possible that this is just a straightforward screwup, it certainly wouldn't be the first. But in this specific case, it's equally possible that it's a problem that couldn't have been helped.
Now, there were also some problems with the system itself, in that some emails were't sent out, but WotC has assured me that those problems have been fixed.
Good to hear. That's all that is reasonable to ask for IMO. Have a problem? Fix it. Done? Awesome. At least you tried to do the right thing in the first place.
I re-upped my subscription in May for all the Dark Sun materials and have been waiting with baited breath for a character builder update so I can get some of my players who are not going to buy every book into this campaign setting.
I have also felt the quality and quantity of decent DDI articles is in decline. Such as today, usually there is only one article put out and its a three page pithing of just consumable items. Where have all the Dungeon adventures gone? Where has the creativity gone?
As a consumer of DDI and D&D as a whole, I don't understand how the redux of the Essentials line means that everything else gets dropped and changed. Are they not continuing with the pre-published adventures such as Orcs of Stone-Fang Pass? No HS3? No creative support for the Rune Priest or Seeker classes after PH3?
Yes, I understand that Essentials is/was an effort to get new players into the game since no one buys PH1 anymore, but what about the rest of us that know how to play? Alot of us purchase everything that comes out, but I haven't bought a single product since the Demonomicon because I don't want to start over now.
As a whole, I was much happier with year 2 of 4th Edition than with this 3rd year of output. At the present, I am very pleased with the Compendium and use it religiously, but come time to re-subscribe I don't think that service is worth my $9 per month if its the only thing I am getting for the money.
They made an annoucement about DDI in three places.
- The DDI Announcements forum.
- The DDI General Discussion forum.
- The DDI Group.
Not the best places since not a lot of people go there. 4e General would have been wiser... if they really wanted people to know about it.
So putting information about DDI in the places specific to DDI is a bad thing?
If people want information about DDI, then the DDI forums and the DDI group are the places to go.
The DDI home page is not DDI specific enough? They at least could have set a quick link labeled "Questions about the next update?"
I had never checked the forums till this problem occured, and I have been stumbling around them for the last half hour trying to find an update on the progress. This reminds me of the line in Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy when the alien states that the plans that would demolish the earth "have been on display at your local planning office in Alpha Centauri for fifty of your Earth years, so you've had plenty of time to lodge formal complaints...What do you mean you've never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven's sake mankind, it's only four light years away you know. I'm sorry, but if you can't be bothered to take an interest in local affairs that's your own lookout."
It is not the responsibility of the Customer to ensure that he is delivered what he has contracted for. The company needs to meet its responsibilities contracted for, and when problems occur they need to be far more open with there customers than posting on any forum.
Forums are for the most inside of the "insiders" those interested enough to go looking deeper. I am a casual gamer, D&D is one of my hobbies not the only one. I want the results of my payment, and if not, a resonable explanation in a timely manner and one that I don't need to go looking for.
I'm disappointed too; you'll notice the lack of little red dragon icon by my name, but I intend to rejoin as soon as this update is up and it's driving me nuts that that hasn't happened yet. But to be fair, this update includes
- A whole new concept (read, entire new tab under Build) in Themes
- Multiple new builds, several of which don't follow the standard class structure (which may, to some extent, be hard-coded)
- An unusual amount of erratta, including pretty extensive rebuilding of the race selection process among other well-established things that other things may depend on
- An entirely new structure for the Feats section
- Major changes to magic items that may require extensively rebuilding the Shop screen
- Large-scale monster updates, even if they stick to monsters that appear in the adventures published so far for Essentials (let alone if they update them properly, which would require essentially rewriting the entire MM1)
- Probably other stuff I've forgotten
This is not a routine update, and it's not that surprising that it would take longer than projected. Software development is like that.
-sigh- And after semi-defending WotC like that, trust them to make me eat most of these words.
The update I thought I was describing finally surfaced, five weeks late, and guess what? It hardly includes any of the things on the above list. That is, if you don't count half-finished implementations that, from the user's point of view, constitute nothing more than a whack of new bugs to add to an already impressive list of such (since the one thing they don't include is any of the actual content, save some of the themes, which there is merely no way to actually access).
It seems like every time I try to defend WotC, whether it's on their plans for 4E e-books, mythic rares in Magic not being tournament staples, or most recently the problems with DDI, they turn around and rip the entire premise my defense of them was based on out from under me.
DDI subscribers go crazy over lack of update, insist that WotC releases half-finished update ("It's better than no update").
WotC releases half-finished update.
DDI subscribers go crazy over lack of finsihed update (usually the SAME subscribers who insisted on a half finished update)
They just can't win, can they?
Well, I guess they can't win.
DDI subscribers go crazy over lack of update, insist that WotC releases half-finished update ("It's better than no update").
WotC releases half-finished update.
DDI subscribers go crazy over lack of finsihed update (usually the SAME subscribers who insisted on a half finished update)
They just can't win, can they?
All they had to do to please those people, and to get a result I would have found acceptable though just barely, is release the content they could easily add and only that. But they didn't do that, they went to a bunch of extra work that had no effect discernable to the end user except to screw up a bunch of stuff that worked fine before. Why not release an earlier build with just the new content, and not the half-assed coding changes? (If the answer is "because no such build ever existed", that's just further evidence of poor planning on their part.)
Half a kitten is not half as cute as an entire kitten, it's just a bloody mess. Much the same principle applies to software.
After all, the client is always right.
Don't say that within earshot of anyone who's ever worked in customer service, because (1) it's manifestly not true, and (2) no matter how legitimate your gripes, it tends to make it sound like your only reason for complaining is an unreasonable sense of entitlement. The customer is not always right.
more issues than when i left (i have popped in a few times over the year), still none of the promised programs listed in the first books for being a DDI subscriber
I understand that they have technical difficulties, everyone has those... but as frequently as they have been happening, some people must have been let go ( i am not saying that they need to start firing people, they might have let some people go which has caused more work than the remaining staff can handle in a timely fashion)... which is rather unfortunate
the client/customer is always right?? OMG are you serious... it's that kinda BS that, well i will drop it... (been in retail/hospitality long enough to know that's not right)
we are all disappointed in how things have been for sure, griping about it doesn't really change it much, if at all... however, it does help to bring the community closer together... which can bring about positive changes if handled appropriately by those in charge... (most of the time things are not handled in the right manner, not getting on you VCL's... you guys are still awesome)
i canceled my subscription and have been waiting for the right time to grab my month and take what i want and leave the rest for the next time i want to update my stuff (haven't been playing much D&D at all, my group is still waiting on the VTT)
. After all, the client is always right.
notalwaysright.com/
Anecdotal evidence that you are wrong, good sir!
Don't say that within earshot of anyone who's ever worked in customer service, because (1) it's manifestly not true, and (2) no matter how legitimate your gripes, it tends to make it sound like your only reason for complaining is an unreasonable sense of entitlement. The customer is not always right.
Actually, as someone who used to work in customer service, it is a good general rule. The fact that so many people in retail and other customer service roles have abandoned it (out of their own sense of entitlement, as well as, in at least some cases, a massive inferiority complex causing a sense of bitterness towards people with more money than them) is the main reason why customer service is generally so shoddy these days. Yes, some customers are self-important jerks. And, if you work in customer service, it is still your job to deal pleasantly and politely with those people. If you're not willing to do that, then find a different job.
Well, I guess they can't win.
DDI subscribers go crazy over lack of update, insist that WotC releases half-finished update ("It's better than no update").
WotC releases half-finished update.
DDI subscribers go crazy over lack of finsihed update (usually the SAME subscribers who insisted on a half finished update)
They just can't win, can they?
A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people on the forums complaining about how it's folded".
I tried to renew my DDI at Gen Con, and was met with only furrowed brows. Funny, because I signed up initially at a Gen Con and Renewed every year at Gen Con with bonus swag (here's a T-shirt or Book Bag or Poster for signing up). This year, they didn't even want to take my money. Now after seeing essentials, I have cancelled my DDI and am glad they didn't take my money at GenCon.
I waited until the essentials line came out to so I could see it for myself. The format and print quality of the essential books is sub-par. I don't like what they have done to my favorite game. After playing 4E for 2+ years, I feel like I was paying to beta-test some half-done experiment. DnD has lost the magic and the mystery and turned into something way too over-balanced and not fun. DnD has "essentially" gone to hell.
I won't even mention the atrocious things they have done to Gamma World and poor way in which Star Wars has handled (failed marketing). I will mention broken promises of PDFs, virtual dnd maps, character viewers, etc...
Hasbro should fire the whole lot of them, Reboot and Start Over.
The more things change ...
Of course, the loss of the licence may have been in the works before the 4th edition release, but I doubt it.
DnD has lost the magic and the mystery and turned into something way too over-balanced and not fun.
While I agree with much of your sentiments, I really doubt any game can be "over-balanced" and I've certainly never seen a game suffer from any truly successful balancing attempts (well except magic-missile jk). In fact, I've only started playing 4e because WotC/TSR finally started looking at D&D like a real (euro)game, rather than a set of provocactive but poorly tied string of rules aimed at fan boys.
But yeah, the essentials and Gamma World are a little on the weak side.
It isn't that I disapprove of the essentials changes (in fact I like them), I just stopped caring because I couldn't see what was possible in the character builder. In the meantime, 4e came to seem like a complicated and badly balanced board game and my group has moved on to other games.
What is a customer? someone that the corporation can make money off of.
Therefore anyone that wants their money back is no longer a customer.
Anyone that costs the corporation money by harrassing customer service with their problems is no longer profitable...
Customers ARE always right.
No they're not. Customers often want incompatible things, sometimes possible thongs, or even illogical things. The trick is to please as many as reasonable at once.
WotC was verbally accosted by a screeching minority for a while and became less open as a result. I believe that that lack of openness hurts them far more than helps, but I can understand the reaction.
Customers ARE always right.
No they're not. Customers often want incompatible things, sometimes possible thongs, or even illogical things. The trick is to please as many as reasonable at once.
WotC was verbally accosted by a screeching minority for a while and became less open as a result. I believe that that lack of openness hurts them far more than helps, but I can understand the reaction.
In light of today's announcement, I think it can be said that their lack of openness has really hurt them this time around. This is the kind of move that can hurt a company. The behavior that led up to it is the reak kicker.
Customers ARE always right.
No they're not. Customers often want incompatible things, sometimes possible thongs, or even illogical things. The trick is to please as many as reasonable at once.
WotC was verbally accosted by a screeching minority for a while and became less open as a result. I believe that that lack of openness hurts them far more than helps, but I can understand the reaction.
In light of today's announcement, I think it can be said that their lack of openness has really hurt them this time around. This is the kind of move that can hurt a company. The behavior that led up to it is the reak kicker.
I DARE anyone to count the number of negative posts on that 1000 posts in less than 24 hours thread about the release of the online CB. It seems the outcry of the few was VERY accurate this time!
In light of today's announcement, I think it can be said that their lack of openness has really hurt them this time around.
What announcement? Did I miss something?
I'll just delete this. Won't do any good anyway.
Half a kitten is not half as cute as an entire kitten, it's just a bloody mess. Much the same principle applies to software.
I'll admit that this made me smile. Nice to have some humor in the midst of a battlezone...