I've been led to believe that you're aware of the thread entitled "Can we have our own forums please Mr. Moderator" in the Other Published Worlds forum. There have been some questions floating around that I think you could answer, and I'd really like to hear from you about them. Quite selfishly, I am going to direct you specifically to the questions I posed in post 158 and post 167.
A couple of the volunteer forum leads have posted their own comments, but there's only so much they can say, and I think that if you were to stop by, it would go a long way toward smoothing things over. It certainly couldn't make things any worse.
If you're aware of the thread, then you're probably aware of what we've been saying since June. You're also aware that we've already been told (repeatedly) about the thread-count criterion. What we're interested in hearing from you is the why and the wherefore.
Please stop by. We'd appreciate it.
Thanks.
P.S. - The invitation applies to everyone in Community Management, as I understand that everyone had a hand in the decisions concerning forum reorganization.
P.P.S. - And now, I'll specifically extend the invitation to Solice.
And if some of those people should choose to leave, that's okay with CM?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic. It's just that understanding your goals would help in understanding your choices. The "other worlds" merger didn't make sense to me when I assumed that the answers to the two questions I posed above were "no." The merger makes a lot more sense if I assume that the answers to those questions are "yes."
If that's the case, that's fine. But is that really what you want? Or is there, in fact, a mis-alignment of your choices and goals?
In this post, I mentioned that I can understand why CM might choose to keep Astrid's Parlor, or declare it as unmergeable:
It's not a bad thing to create a forum in order to foster discussion or to make the boards appear friendlier to a certain category of gamers.
I'm just curious, though, about how CM decides when it's appropriate to look beyond thread-count, and when it's not.
What makes Astrid's (and Eberron) so different from Greyhawk, Mystara, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, and all of the other settings currently lumped together in the "Other Published Worlds" forum?
What makes Astrid's (and Eberron) so different from Greyhawk, Mystara, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, and all of the other settings currently lumped together in the "Other Published Worlds" forum?
Astrids? I think Ubbergeek has identified the likely reason.
Eberron? It is a currently-supported published setting.
It's also quite popular is it is now, even sans new stuff.
+/-50% of the world's population VS a minute extremely small % of the world's population.
And what percentage of the GAMING population are we discussing? I think it's gamers that are the relevant population here, not the world at large.
Astrids? I think Ubbergeek has identified the likely reason.
Eberron? It is a currently-supported published setting.
Eberron have nothing new... for now. But expect that to change head over heels when the campaign setting book will come out.
It's also quite popular is it is now, even sans new stuff.
Eberron has just as much 4E material as Dark Sun (for example).
And the 2010 setting, to be published after Eberron, is likely one of those currently lumped together in the "Other Worlds" forum.
And what percentage of the GAMING population are we discussing? I think it's gamers that are the relevant population here, not the world at large.
Eberron has just as much 4E material as Dark Sun (for example).
And the 2010 setting, to be published after Eberron, is likely one of those currently lumped together in the "Other Worlds" forum.
Still can say that there is more female gamers as a whole than gamers of a particular setting.
Eberron is much more fresher, actual and modern; and very popular - it was not dubbed a 'renewal' for naught.
As fun as Dark Sun is (or not), it's passé. Unless new material come out. Eberron have much more chance of this, it's coming next after FR, and if not, it's close.
I've noticed that Eberron and Astrid's have been hovering around the 10-thread-per-day merger criterion.
Astrid's has nothign to be merged into that isn't already garnering more than 25 (and often more than 50) active threads.
Eberron has not been consistently under 10 threads per day. Not yet. I would be surprised if they do anything about Eberron until after its 4th edition supplements get released. If that doesn't revitalize interest in the setting, then I would think they will merge the forum.
Edit: If you're looking for a forum that's a candidate for merger, it would be the Previous Editions: Adventures, Campaigns & Encounters, which could conceivably be merged with either Campaign & Adventure Workshop or Previous Editions General. However, even that board isn't so sparse, imo, as to warrant merger yet.
I would want to wait at least three months to see if things pick up.
And my point is this: wrecan and Lord Karsus have told me that the other settings don't have the thread-count to justify separate forums. Their comments have suggested that thread-count is the sole determining factor for whether or not a particular forum is split or merged. (And the reason for this thread is that wrecan and Lord Karsus are the ONLY people I've seen comment in support of what Community Management has done. Other than his original post setting forth the merge/split thread-count criteria, G_Z has been silent, as has everyone else at WotC.) But Astrid's and Eberron illustrate that there are exceptions.
Eberron has no 4E product, and won't until next year. The only reason you can still call it a published or supported setting is that the 3.5E stuff is still in print. But it won't get merged into the other worlds forum because it's the next setting after FR to get the 4E treatment. And so that consideration must be an exception to the thread-count criterion for maintaining a separate existence.
And yet, the same could be said for the other settings. We know that WotC will publish one setting per year, so the 2010 setting is likely one of the settings currently mashed into the "Other Worlds" forum. The only difference is that Eberron is the only other one (other than FR) that has been announced, and it is closer to being released.
Then there's Astrid's. That's a specific aspect of the gaming experience that CM has singled out as valuable and worth discussing in its own forum. And, no doubt, part of that decision was motivated by a desire to draw more girls and women into gaming (and into D&D specifically). So, in order to foster a particular segment of the gaming community, another exception to the thread-count criterion has been established.
But what about the fan communities supporting the other published settings? What makes them less worthy of being fostered and supported? And shouldn't the fact that some or all of those settings will eventually be converted to 4E also weigh in favor of fostering the fan community, so that there will be a ready market, eager for the new product?
Either wrecan or Lord Karsus (or perhaps both) had commented that CM can't make exceptions for the other settings, because then everyone will want an exception made. However, it seems clear that exceptions are already being made.
Astrid's has nothign to be merged into that isn't already garnering more than 25 (and often more than 50) active threads.
Eberron has not been consistently under 10 threads per day. Not yet. I would be surprised if they do anything about Eberron until after its 4th edition supplements get released. If that doesn't revitalize interest in the setting, then I would think they will merge the forum.
Edit: If you're looking for a forum that's a candidate for merger, it would be the Previous Editions: Adventures, Campaigns & Encounters, which could conceivably be merged with either Campaign & Adventure Workshop or Previous Editions General. However, even that board isn't so sparse, imo, as to warrant merger yet.
I would want to wait at least three months to see if things pick up.
Like I said, I'm really not on a merger warpath. I'm just trying to make a point.
But what about the fan communities supporting the other published settings? What makes them less worthy of being fostered and supported?
Okay, I will come out as rude maybe, or jarkarse.
Which communauties?
I means, as pointed by Wrecan once I think, the trafic to them was low. Legacy stuff, hold alive on iron lungs by dedicated fans who noneless was minorities of minorities.
C'est la vie; modes come and pass. Unless they are reanimated officialy somehow...
Like I said, I'm really not on a merger warpath. I'm just trying to make a point.
Your point is getting lost. Please tell me your thesis and we can then test it against the relevant data.
Astrid's does not yet have a proven record of being consistently posting under 10. The criteria is not "around ten". The criteria is that a candidate for merger is between five and ten active threads per day. And it has nothing to be merged into.
Eberron is more active than Astrid's so I'm not sure why it should be a candidate for merger at all.
The Other Worlds boards as separate entities were individually below five active threads/day.
Your point is getting lost. Please tell me your thesis and we can then test it against the relevant data.
Brom's original point wasn't so much a point but rather a request. He wanted to here directly from Mike in regards to what the future plans for the Other Worlds forum would be. Brom started this thread to invite Mike to participate in a discussion. It would seem that Mike has - so far - not accepted that invitation.
Brom's original point wasn't so much a point but rather a request.
I was talking about his secondary point -- the one about forum traffic. I.e., the "point" he references in post 11.
Your point is getting lost. Please tell me your thesis and we can then test it against the relevant data.
Astrid's does not yet have a proven record of being consistently posting under 10. The criteria is not "around ten". The criteria is that a candidate for merger is between five and ten active threads per day. And it has nothing to be merged into.
Eberron is more active than Astrid's so I'm not sure why it should be a candidate for merger at all.
The Other Worlds boards as separate entities were individually below five active threads/day.
I singled out Astrid's and Eberron because they've both been hovering around the 10-thread-per-day mark, and recent counts have fallen below. But I highly doubt that either of them will be considered for merger, even though they are on the border of qualifying for it, and that is because there are considerations at play other than thread count. These two forums seem to demonstrate that thread count is not the sole criterion for a separate existence. And yet, thread-count IS the sole criterion that is put forth when the other published settings are being discussed. That's my point.
Brom's original point wasn't so much a point but rather a request. He wanted to here directly from Mike in regards to what the future plans for the Other Worlds forum would be. Brom started this thread to invite Mike to participate in a discussion. It would seem that Mike has - so far - not accepted that invitation.
That is true. Neither here, nor in the thread in the "Other Worlds" forum that I referenced in the original post. I still think his input would be interesting and helpful.
I was talking about his secondary point -- the one about forum traffic. I.e., the "point" he references in post 11.
It was also referenced, and more fully set forth, in post 10.
I never said thread count is the only criterion. it is, however, a significant one.
Second, Astrid's and Eberron are bad examples for your case. Eberron has not consistently posts thread counts between 5 and 10. Astrid's hasn't really either, but even if it had, it has no place to get merged into.
Okay, I will come out as rude maybe, or jarkarse.
Which communauties?
I means, as pointed by Wrecan once I think, the trafic to them was low. Legacy stuff, hold alive on iron lungs by dedicated fans who noneless was minorities of minorities.
C'est la vie; modes come and pass. Unless they are reanimated officialy somehow...
Yes, traffic was low, but it has died down even more since the merger because a number of people have left in disgust. On the other hand, I think that maintaining the separate forums would have encouraged people to stay. (And I don't think it's accurate to say they're on life support, but I really don't have any numbers to prove that.) If the Astrid's community is deserving of fostering and room to grow, why not the old settings?
As for being "reanimated," we know that's coming, since WotC will be publishing a different setting each year. Quite likely, the 2010 setting (i.e., the one after Eberron) is one of those legacy settings.
If the Astrid's community is deserving of fostering and room to grow, why not the old settings?
What are you hoping to get out of this, Brom? I'm sincere in this question.
We can't turn back the clock. Even if we were to say, "merger was a mistake", what's the solution? Break up a forum that barely reaches 5 active threads/day now? Isn't it too late?
(By the way, I don't think it was a mistake. I think the out-of-print worlds had years of being in various stages of defunctness to grow and they didn't. They didn't when 3.5 got released and I don't think it would have happened when 4.0 was released either. Had any of them approached Eberron levels of activity they would have gotten their own forum. None of them did.)
Astrid's may flop in the end. I'm no fan of Astrid's. (Well, I was, but I've become disillusioned.) Maybe when it's had as much time to prove itself as the Other Worlds forums had, it will get closed down too. But it's only been 11 weeks.
Eberron may eventually end up merged into Other Worlds. But we're nowhere near that point. Eberron is doing fine, activity-wise, regularly sporting more than 10 active threads/day.
I never said thread count is the only criterion. it is, however, a significant one.
But how significant? When do other considerations come into play? These, I think, would be great questions for Mike to address.
Second, Astrid's and Eberron are bad examples for your case. Eberron has not consistently posts thread counts between 5 and 10. Astrid's hasn't really either, but even if it had, it has no place to get merged into.
Eberron's count has been low lately, but was much higher not too long ago. I would imagine that it would have to be low for a good deal longer before merger would become an issue. But I maintain that, regardless of thread-count, it will not be considered for merger.
And I don't think Astrid's is being kept alive solely out of a lack of any good place to merge it into. If CM wanted to, I'm sure they could find something else to split out of General in order to make room for Astrid's. And the point of merger is that there's not that much traffic anyway - what effect would 5-6 more threads per day have on General? (Besides, those people who frequent Astrid's may just stop posting here, and find another forum more suited to their needs.)
In any event, I've got nothing against either forum, and if referring to them is causing everyone to focus on the trees at the expense of seeing the forest, then I'll stop.
What are you hoping to get out of this, Brom? I'm sincere in this question.
At this point, my only real goal is to get someone from WotC to make an appearance and explain, from their point of view, knowing what they know and what we, as outsiders, don't, why they don't care that nobody is happy with the other worlds forum.
I really don't expect anyone to undo the change. I don't think they want to, and I really don't think it would do any good anymore.
But if they believe that what they did was right, then why can't they come out and say it? I appreciate you and Lord Karsus doing your best to explain things for them, but you're not them and there's a limit to what you can say.
Frankly, this is about all that I'm still doing on these boards. I've only played 4E once and my gaming group has no immediate plans to stop playing 3.5, so the bulk of the boards hold very little appeal for me. I did enjoy the settings forums, but the merged forum isn't the same.
Default would be posts counts, unless there is other factors justifying a forum or not.
The art of compromises, ya know.
But how significant? When do other considerations come into play? These, I think, would be great questions for Mike to address.
I think you're looking for a mathematical formula that cannot possibly exist. Any other factors would have to be considered on an ad hoc basis. For example, the Dragon and Dungeon Magazine forums will likely never get ten posts a day, but their purpose is just a place to discuss the articles as their published. nobody would expect to see much mre than one or two threads per article, so we eschew the thread count there.
If CM wanted to, I'm sure they could find something else to split out of General in order to make room for Astrid's.
Propose it. I'd love it if they could split something substantive off from General. The more we can get out of that cess pit the better.
At this point, my only real goal is to get someone from WotC to make an appearance and explain, from their point of view, knowing what they know and what we, as outsiders, don't, why they don't care that nobody is happy with the other worlds forum.
Why would they do something like that (notwithstanding that the question is leading and totally loaded with assumptions). I mean, really, the question drips with hostility and resentment. No rational person would enter the viper's nest to get interrogated.
I tried it and I regret it. I don't think anybody's mind was changed and I felt like I simply painted a target on my forehead for people to vent their anger towards.
why can't they come out and say it?
Why should they if nobody's going to listen? If CM asked me if they should go into Other Worlds and answer your questions, I'd give them an emphatic no. Nothing good could come out of such an exchange. The only result is somebody would say somebody in a way that people could grab onto it and feel justified for their anger.
Propose it. I'd love it if they could split something substantive off from General. The more we can get out of that cess pit the better.
Would this be required to be 4th edition centric?
Design Discussion.
Not about the playing of the game, or DMs making worlds, but the actually ideas people have about the design of the things in the edition.
GD: Should I pick Elf or Eladrin?
DD: What are the fundamental differences between the Elf and Eladrin and how did they cause the race to be split?
I find your proposal intriguing. I recommend you start a thread about it.
Hellmute,
I find your proposal intriguing. I recommend you start a thread about it.
...erm....You can take it and run with it. I just like discussing the stuff not making directed discussions about what to discuss.Give me some numbers to crunch and I will start that thread. ;)
Conceptually, just a forum for discussing the design decisions that lead to the new edition rather than what those designs become when playing....
WHen I said I was intrigued, I kind of meant, your idea sounds interesting but I don't quite understand it. I thought if you explained it more fully, I might. I don't think I understand the concept enough to start a thread on it.
It isn't entirely a complete thought, but will try again.
They way GD works, is you discuss anything. From how the things came to be in 4th, to how they work within your personal games.
I was just thinking about a forum to discuss how people thought things can to be designed to separate that from how things get used in the game. As with the two elf examples.
The design discussion wouldn't be about how to play an eladrin or elf, but what caused there to be eladrin and elf. what caused the power Hurl Into Hell for warlock. Why do paladins mark. All those things from a design decision POV. Thus the forums users trying to dissect the game to see inside the concepts that make the games final decisions. some design decisions might be obvious and get little discussion like form distance to grid squares for movement and such.
I think you're looking for a mathematical formula that cannot possibly exist. Any other factors would have to be considered on an ad hoc basis.
No, not looking for a mathematical formula.
Why would they do something like that (notwithstanding that the question is leading and totally loaded with assumptions). I mean, really, the question drips with hostility and resentment. No rational person would enter the viper's nest to get interrogated.
I tried it and I regret it. I don't think anybody's mind was changed and I felt like I simply painted a target on my forehead for people to vent their anger towards.
Why should they if nobody's going to listen? If CM asked me if they should go into Other Worlds and answer your questions, I'd give them an emphatic no. Nothing good could come out of such an exchange. The only result is somebody would say somebody in a way that people could grab onto it and feel justified for their anger.
I don't blame you for not wanting to wade back into the fray, but then again, you're not the decisionmaker, either.
CM's silence only serves as further proof that they don't care about building a community. They give the impression that they are simply saddled with the task of dealing with the unruly mob that has chosen to come here, and they try to herd us as best they can - and if a few of us leave, so much the better for them, especially if the ones who leave were disgruntled rabblerousers in the first place.
If they made a decision that they feel was best, why not say so? Nobody says they need to hang around and take abuse.
What are you hoping to get out of this, Brom? I'm sincere in this question.
I gave this some more thought and I guess I have to admit that, on some level, part of me would still like to see a change made. I don't think it will happen, and I doubt that it would do any good, but I think the desire to see that change is still part of it.
And this is another part, something that I alluded to but didn't specifically identify: this is one of the few topics here that still interests me. I like to post here, but really don't have anything to say about 4E.
Nothing good could come out of such an exchange.
I'm not so sure about that. If they make a case for the reasonableness of what they did, it could defuse some of the hostility.
But it can't just be a matter of, "These forums didn't meet the thread-count criterion for maintaining a separate existence." Why didn't any other factors - any of those ad hoc factors - apply? Did they give any thought to any factor other than thread-count with respect to those forums?
If CM would show us their reasoning process, one of two things would happen: we'd point out flaws in their reasoning, or we'd be forced to grudgingly accept the validity of their conclusion.
And if nothing else, it would make the people in the other worlds forums feel like a part of the community, which should go a long way toward soothing some hard feelings.
No, not looking for a mathematical formula.
Then what do you seek? Anything that's not mathematical is going to be ad hoc, and that means people are going to disagree. It's like asking someone to justify why they didn't put more vanilla bean in their French Vanilla ice cream.
I don't blame you for not wanting to wade back into the fray, but then again, you're not the decisionmaker, either.
It wouldn't matter if I were. The ire directed at me would have been the same.
CM's silence only serves as further proof that they don't care about building a community.
It does nothing of the sort and statements like that read like you're daring them. That community hates CM. They are never going to like CM and the only reason to enter the forum is to let people shoot you with arrows.
CM's silence in that forum only shows they have enough brains not to shove their hands in a wasp's nest.
CM has plenty of threads in this board and the VCL boards on the Gleemax forum discussing the criteria for splitting, merging and organizaing forums. They don't need enter a lion's den to show how they care.
They give the impression
Impressions are the product of the impressed, not the impresser. You're reading into their "silence" what you already believe to be true.
If they made a decision that they feel was best, why not say so?
They have, in the forums about forum organization.
I think the desire to see that change is still part of it.
Sometimes you have to let go.
I like to post here, but really don't have anything to say about 4E.
Then post about what you like, but picking at this old war wound of yours isn't pretty.
If they make a case for the reasonableness of what they did, it could defuse some of the hostility.
I am as certain as certain can be that nobody in the Other Worlds board who is currently unhappy with the merger would be made happier by anything CM has to say to justify it. I gave the very same reasons they discussed in other threads and got nothing but grief. And it wasn't because people didn't believe me because I'm not CM. It's because they didn't like the answer and they won't like any answer that doesn't include "We were wrong".
If CM would show us their reasoning process, one of two things would happen: we'd point out flaws in their reasoning, or we'd be forced to grudgingly accept the validity of their conclusion.
Wrong. That's not what happened, as evidence by the fact that you still insist on saying that thread count was the only factor they considered after I told you (in the Other Worlds board, mind you) that they did consider other things, because they were discussed!
There's no "validity" to what is essentially a subjective determination. Can I get someone who hates horror movies to accept that I'm showing horror movies in the theater that use to show only arts films? No. He thinks horror is dreck. he doesn't understand why his artsy theater, which used to hobble along with just his friends, now has to act like bigger theaters. He thinks it will drive away more audience than it attracts. Maybe he's right and maybe he's wrong. Nad maybe any increase in attendance is not due to the horror movies, but because a shiny new 4th edition mall opened up. Or maybe the decrease in attendance is because nobody's released a new artsy movie in over six years.
Nobody is capable of convincing anybody of anything on this topic. It's an utterly futile exercise.
it would make the people in the other worlds forums feel like a part of the community
I can guarantee you it would not make anybody in the Other Worlds board feel anything but more resentment, anger and insult, because they're not going to hear the magical words "We were wrong and you were right" and at this point, that's the only thing that could be said to assuage them.
Why should they if nobody's going to listen? If CM asked me if they should go into Other Worlds and answer your questions, I'd give them an emphatic no. Nothing good could come out of such an exchange. The only result is somebody would say somebody in a way that people could grab onto it and feel justified for their anger.
If they asked me, I'd say they should go for it. Consider the entertainment value of such a discussion.
If they asked me, I'd say they should go for it. Consider the entertainment value of such a discussion.
-Fuh, it wasn't fun, I'll say that much.
It does nothing of the sort and statements like that read like you're daring them. That community hates CM. They are never going to like CM and the only reason to enter the forum is to let people shoot you with arrows.
CM's silence in that forum only shows they have enough brains not to shove their hands in a wasp's nest.
CM has plenty of threads in this board and the VCL boards on the Gleemax forum discussing the criteria for splitting, merging and organizaing forums. They don't need enter a lion's den to show how they care.
They don't have to go into the other worlds forum. That's why this thread is here in Community Business and not there.
Wrong. That's not what happened, as evidence by the fact that you still insist on saying that thread count was the only factor they considered after I told you (in the Other Worlds board, mind you) that they did consider other things, because they were discussed!
I just looked back at your posts in that other thread to see if I had missed anything, and I can't say that I did. What you posted about was the fact that none of the old setting-specific forums met the thread-count criterion. There was a comment about those forums not having enough value to warrant an exception - though no discussion about how that value was measured. Is that what you were referring to? Because other than that, it all seems to have been about thread count.
The Community Management team wanted the minimum number of forums to make the forums work. So the choice was either combine the the old worlds on the 4e forums or combine them with the homebrewed worlds in the previous edition forum. Since you do not like the mashed Other Worlds forums I'm guessing the alternative would have been worse.
[snip]
[snip]
The standard procedure as I understand it is that a product line that hasn't been active for over a year or so they are moved to the legacy area which means they are read only. Since most of these setting do not have a 4e upgrade they could have easily made them legacy. The only other option would have been to put them in the 3.5e homebrew section which would have only made them more crowded.
[snip]
When all of the discussions were going on, CM wanted the minimum number of forums needed as a base (that's why FR and Eberron were crushed to one forum each), then to build off that as needed. If the discussions weren't buried within months of threads, I might have looked for the exact quotes made by CM. Thread count was not the only factor in merging, but the low activity was a major factor. (Not being an active product is one of the other factors)
As to why Eberron will probably continue to get their one forum (when they use to have six) is because they are the next named system and are getting support/new material through the online magazines (Adventure path conversions through Dungeon and Artificier, Warforged, and other things through dragon.
Whatever world is announced for 2010 will probably get the same treatment. One separate forum (which will get split if the forum takes off with activity) and sneak peaks/material through Dragon.