If the signatures offend you, there are options in the Control Panel that you might want to look at.
Edit - The OP mentioned nothing about this. This is solely a response to Zombie Babuies
What I would like to stop is every thread that an avenger posts in turn into a thred of "Oh, can I be Iron Man?" "No, there's already an Iron Man." "Well, what can I be?" "There's slots open on the Outsiders." and so on.
It's a serious derailment that can take up half the posts for several pages of a thread, sometimes.
EDIT: I also recognize that it's usually someone other than an avenger seeing the sig and starting it. But the ones that continue taking up threadspace usually are the ones who are just discussing what their place already is. Perhaps a solution is, since I believe there's already a thread discussing who is what, instead of answering the non-avenger's question, someone can just post that link and tell them to go there, politely, and then continue the actual discussion.
I have said it before, the 4e avengers have all registered with that Tony Stark.
Luke Cage leads the REAL avengers... following the old time ideals of Captain America.
:D :D :D :D
Just curious - If you are asking for the Avengers to remove stuff in their sigs, will you also be asking people who hate 4E to remove stuff from their sigs? How about people who like (or dislike) 4E but aren't "Avengers" or "h4ters"??
If the signatures offend you, there are options in the Control Panel that you might want to look at.
Ack. Shoulda' mentioned that (h4ters removing h4te sigs). Of course that would be the idea.
I'm not offended in the least, btw, but you must admit it does send a message. But, if people don't want to be taken as seriously as they should be or don't care that they appear to be fanatic in their support of the game, who am I to judge? Hell, if everyone wants to stoke the fires with the little things like sigs, go for it. Just don't talk about how it's X and Y's fault but not your own. Christ. If ya' can't see how blatantly declaring allegiance to a "side" would be problematic with the current board climate - one of the pro side vs the con side - then I have no pity for anyone "suffering" from the other side, as it were. It really is this simple. There is a division. Putting stuff like "4e Bart Simpson" or "I play D&D not $e" in your sig firmly places you into a camp. Thus maintaining the division. And fostering feelings of hostility.
Yes... dictating what can be in peoples sigs... always a good thing, yes?
Who's dictating anything? I'm simply advocating common sense and civility. Keep whatever you want in your sig. Just don't be surprised if you're responded to as a f4nboy with an agenda and not listened to. If you choose a side you won't be seen as someone in the middle. The more people on opposing sides, the more the crap on the boards will continue. That's all I'm sayin'.
**Clarification: The OP did not mention sigs at all. That was on me. He has clarified this already, but I wanted it to be perfectly clear. This is my beef. ;)
**Clarification: The OP did not mention sigs at all. That was on me. He has clarified this already, but I wanted it to be perfectly clear. This is my beef. ;)
A beef I agree with to a degree, but I don't really have anything to say on it that would be adding to the discussion. Also, it's not really the point of this thread, but a worthy side discussion that ties into the point of this thread.
I, for one, am not asking anyone to remove anything from their sigs. I'm sorry it was worded kind of that way.
Sorry. I should have been clear that I was respondingt ot he posts responding to you, not your post.
My apologies. I will clarify my post.
What I would like to stop is every thread that an avenger posts in turn into a thred of "Oh, can I be Iron Man?" "No, there's already an Iron Man." "Well, what can I be?" "There's slots open on the Outsiders." and so on.
It's a serious derailment that can take up half the posts for several pages of a thread, sometimes.
Report the post, and mention that it is a serious derailment and completely off-topic. If that doesn't get anything done, PM one of the forum leads or your VCL, and they (we) can see what can be done.
Sorry. I should have been clear that I was respondingt ot he posts responding to you, not your post.
My apologies. I will clarify my post.
Report the post, and mention that it is a serious derailment and completely off-topic. If that doesn't get anything done, PM one of the forum leads or your VCL, and they (we) can see what can be done.
I have started reporting them when I see them, but I also figured that making people aware that it is a problem might lead to fewer posts needing to be reported.
I have started reporting them when I see them, but I also figured that making people aware that it is a problem might lead to fewer posts needing to be reported.
When you report the posts, amke sure you give a fair amount of detail. If you simply report "Off topic", then it takes a lot of work for the WizO responding to figure out *why* it is off topic, and they may get it wrong.
If you instead say "The topic of this thread is XXXX, and at post #XX to post #YY, the thread is being derailed onto a topic that has nothing to do with the original topic, or even with D&D" it is easier for the WizO to see what is wrong, and what needs to be fixed.
When you report the posts, amke sure you give a fair amount of detail. If you simply report "Off topic", then it takes a lot of work for the WizO responding to figure out *why* it is off topic, and they may get it wrong.
If you instead say "The topic of this thread is XXXX, and at post #XX to post #YY, the thread is being derailed onto a topic that has nothing to do with the original topic, or even with D&D" it is easier for the WizO to see what is wrong, and what needs to be fixed.
Well, since I discovered I can only report once every 60 seconds, I've taking to reporting the most recent post, explaining why I believe it to be off topic, and simply pointing out that there are several posts in the thread that are off topic in the same way.
I suppose I could put in specific post numbers as well, if you think that would help.
Well, since I discovered I can only report once every 60 seconds, I've taking to reporting the most recent post, explaining why I believe it to be off topic, and simply pointing out that there are several posts in the thread that are off topic in the same way.
I suppose I could put in specific post numbers as well, if you think that would help.
That is the best way to do so.
(Note that I am not a WizO, nor have I ever been a WizO. However, I have asked WizOs the best way to report posts, and the unanimous answer is "Provide as much info as you can.")
-After aggressively reporting off-topic posts in a specific thread, WizO_Tao informed me of this. The VCL of the section has to put in a notice that off-topic stuff needs to be scraped from the discussion.
Thanks for the info.
Back to the original topic:
I think there is only one 4e avenger left. Are that many people really commenting on his sig?
This begs the question... how sad do you have to be to cite yourself as a person based on loyally to a version of an RPG?
There is a line about off-topic posts in the CoC.
-There is. Chapter six, subsection two. But, yet...
I think there is only one 4e avenger left. Are that many people really commenting on his sig?
The actual OP is about off-topic 4e Avenger, X-Men, etc conversations in threads. This bit is my doing.
It's not that people say anything. It's an impression that is given. I addressed why I think it's a bad idea earlier in this thread. I must admit, though, that these new 4e tags aren't as bad. They still admit a bias, but they're a lot less provocative than Avenger and most seem to show why the person is displaying that tag (help for houserules, whatever). Still, if the problem on the boards is one side against another, it's hardly conducive to harmony to advertise that you belong to a side at all. At least for now. And this, of course, applies to all forms of anti-4e sigs as well.
The actual OP is about off-topic 4e Avenger, X-Men, etc conversations in threads. This bit is my doing.
It's not that people say anything. It's an impression that is given. I addressed why I think it's a bad idea earlier in this thread. I must admit, though, that these new 4e tags aren't as bad. They still admit a bias, but they're a lot less provocative than Avenger and most seem to show why the person is displaying that tag (help for houserules, whatever). Still, if the problem on the boards is one side against another, it's hardly conducive to harmony to advertise that you belong to a side at all. At least for now. And this, of course, applies to all forms of anti-4e sigs as well.
The original intent, as I understood it and as a result joined, was to have the sigs indicate that we were willing to answer questions (even silly ones). As a relative newbie myself, I can remember how embarrassing it was to ask something like "how do I make a spoiler box?" or "How do I quote more than one person?" Yes, there are moderators and VCLs and five other acronyms, but I thought they were too important to bother with silly little questions so maybe other people do as well.
How is it a bad idea to have people making themselves available to answer questions?
The original intent, as I understood it and as a result joined, was to have the sigs indicate that we were willing to answer questions (even silly ones). As a relative newbie myself, I can remember how embarrassing it was to ask something like "how do I make a spoiler box?" or "How do I quote more than one person?" Yes, there are moderators and VCLs and five other acronyms, but I thought they were too important to bother with silly little questions so maybe other people do as well.
How is it a bad idea to have people making themselves available to answer questions?
It's not. And I never implied that it was. Why not change it from "4e Aquaman" to "D&D Aquaman" for a bit? The reason I have an issue with it is that, again, it implies that you have chosen a side. The 4e side. People that don't like 4e don't care that you're a helpful poster. They see 4e X-Force and miss the rest. People are still divided, no? That's why there's this ridiculous animosity, no? So why advertise that you picked a side? That is provocative and in no way helps the issue. If all you care about is advertising that you are willing to help with questions of type X and you truly do not have some agenda, why not make it "D&D whatever" instead of "4e whatever"? That's all I'm trying to say. Eventually all this crap will die down completely and the 4e tag can go back. But, for now, it's needlessly provocative, IMO.
It's not. And I never implied that it was. Why not change it from "4e Aquaman" to "D&D Aquaman" for a bit? The reason I have an issue with it is that, again, it implies that you have chosen a side. The 4e side. People that don't like 4e don't care that you're a helpful poster. They see 4e X-Force and miss the rest. People are still divided, no? That's why there's this ridiculous animosity, no? So why advertise that you picked a side? That is provocative and in no way helps the issue. If all you care about is advertising that you are willing to help with questions of type X and you truly do not have some agenda, why not make it "D&D whatever" instead of "4e whatever"? That's all I'm trying to say. Eventually all this crap will die down completely and the 4e tag can go back. But, for now, it's needlessly provocative, IMO.
For me it is a very simple answer: I've never played 3.5, I wouldn't know how to answer any questions about it. I really couldn't answer for anyone else.
For me it is a very simple answer: I've never played 3.5, I wouldn't know how to answer any questions about it. I really couldn't answer for anyone else.
That makes good sense. But you could just explain that if confronted with a previous edition question. Or possibly put that as a disclaimer under your title. Like D&D He-Man: Master of the 4e Universe, or something along those lines. Actually, that would offer a chance to expand your program to other editions as well which could actually unite some folks. I like it, but it's my idea. ;) There's just no need, IMO, to make it a 4e thing. What do you think?
The problem is that this is made EXPRESSIVELY for 4th ed.
Indeed, it is a 4e thing. We want to help people with 4e.
That makes good sense. But you could just explain that if confronted with a previous edition question. Or possibly put that as a disclaimer under your title. Like D&D He-Man: Master of the 4e Universe, or something along those lines. Actually, that would offer a chance to expand your program to other editions as well which could actually unite some folks. I like it, but it's my idea. ;) There's just no need, IMO, to make it a 4e thing. What do you think?
Seems to me if you read the sigs in this thread at least one person already has.
Yes... dictating what can be in peoples sigs... always a good thing, yes?
You think that they don't already?
I've had my sig edited twice here.
1) I dared utter the name of God. Now, not in any kind of religous or evengelical way, more along the lines of 'God doesn't hate you, I hate you'. No one ever said a word to me. I was never asked or advised to change it, I just logged on one day and it was gone. Whatever.
2) I replaced that with a refrence to 4th ed and killing kittens. When 4e was officially announced, I added the line 'Damn, I'm going to need more kittens'. The word 'damn', of course, was removed by some helpful WizO. Now, I never would have included that word if it was not commonly used on these boards and not reported, but they decided it was too much for my sig. And again there was no request or even command that I edit it myself, if there had been I would have readily complied.
So, yes. Dictating what can be in peoples signatures. Is it a 'good' thing or not? Doesn't matter. It happens.
So, yes. Dictating what can be in peoples signatures. Is it a 'good' thing or not? Doesn't matter. It happens.
I had a mildly political quote edited out of mine. It definitely happens.
It's not. And I never implied that it was. Why not change it from "4e Aquaman" to "D&D Aquaman" for a bit?
Well maybe because the 4E AQUAMAN can't really help his fellow 4E JLA members because you can't play D&D underwater. AQUAMAN's ability to fight off 3rd edition Legions of Doom is useless on land because all of your minions and pets are kept in aquariums.
It's annoying if people go into other threads to talk about who can be who. For that reasons there exists a specific thread about our "team".
Once again to reinforce what was already said: We have created this "Team" expressly for 4E, so I indeed HAVE chosen sides, namely the side of 4E. I'm not going to get into Editionwars overly eager defending 4E without an eye for it's flaws, but I will try to clear up misinformation and help folks around the boards.
I will help will all problems I can, even if they're 3.5 material, but the Team was assembled for 4E and thus will concern itself "officially" only with 4E questions. If someone has enough info for himsel to help out with other questions, that's a good thing too, but the whole thing IS that it's made for 4E.
I understand the goal behind the team. No problems there. But the mere act of choosing a side is a problem all it's own. If you guys refuse to concern yourselves with that, there's nothing else for me to say. IMO, though, the "problem" that needs the most help is the continued attitude of division on the boards. And choosing a side does nothing to resolve that. Still, enjoy your titles and best of luck fulfilling your duties. I'm sure your help will be appreciated.
If we are utherly divised, if we can't agree to work together, well... what choice remain? There is forums for each sides, here...
You know, deliberate division may be a good (or unescapable at least) thing. Divorces exist for a reason, and it's not always as egoist as thought. Penny for though.
If we are utherly divised, if we can't agree to work together, well... what choice remain? There is forums for each sides, here...
Or not.
I don't think it has anything to do with 'working together,' not when each 'side' prefers a different game.
Rather, it is about showing respect to one another, avoiding rudeness and name-calling, and perhaps not taking things so very personally.
I'm a rather old fellow. It never seemed to me that segregation -- of any sort -- ever worked, anywhere.
When it's not possible to have that kind of polite relations, perhaps at least a temporary separation of sort is needed... Some peoples are just too opposed in views.
Everyone aside untill spirits are calmer.
Or not.
I don't think it has anything to do with 'working together,' not when each 'side' prefers a different game.
Rather, it is about showing respect to one another, avoiding rudeness and name-calling, and perhaps not taking things so very personally.
I'm a rather old fellow. It never seemed to me that segregation -- of any sort -- ever worked, anywhere.
While I'm certainly not a real-world segregationist, it doesn't really make much sense for posters to wind up in the 4E forums if they don't want to talk about their 4E games and how to make them better. If a poster doesn't want to talk about the game in terms other than how it and everyone who likes it sucks, they probably shouldn't be there in the first place. There are forums for the older editions, fans of those editions would be much better served there.
Here's to hoping though...
While it's semi provoking, so is the color red. Trolls come regardless of what a sig says at least in my experience on forums in general.
I'm a rather old fellow. It never seemed to me that segregation -- of any sort -- ever worked, anywhere.
If someone is unable to talk about 4th edition without screeching at someone who has an "Avenger" tag in their signature to better help people, the problem is the hater, not the helper.
Granted I've been off boards for the last week...
Except, of course, they reference other companies' valuable trademarked characters.
I'm sure that's covered under Fair Use, though
If someone is unable to talk about 4th edition without screeching at someone who has an "Avenger" tag in their signature to better help people, the problem is the hater, not the helper.
The avengers are not there to help people they are there to beat people over the head who disagree with them. You can't have a negative opinion of 4e anymore because of them. They are an inquisition and should be banned, just like the HMWHC was banned. Just like any club on this board gets banned.
The avengers are not there to help people they are there to beat people over the head who disagree with them. You can't have a negative opinion of 4e anymore because of them. They are an inquisition and should be banned, just like the HMWHC was banned. Just like any club on this board gets banned.
The number of threads in General Discussion that are critical of 4E, and are being discussed without any sign of flaming or attacking kinda blows your theory out of the water.
The avengers are not there to help people they are there to beat people over the head who disagree with them. You can't have a negative opinion of 4e anymore because of them. They are an inquisition and should be banned, just like the HMWHC was banned. Just like any club on this board gets banned.
And yet, it seems only pro clubs are targeted... or first.
I say no until things like the Defenders of the Realms are targeted too.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
I wouldn't waste anymore time talking with said troll, he sent me a rather lovely PM and I see no reason to keep feeding it.
Better to let it waste away, IMHO.
While I'm certainly not a real-world segregationist, it doesn't really make much sense for posters to wind up in the 4E forums if they don't want to talk about their 4E games and how to make them better. If a poster doesn't want to talk about the game in terms other than how it and everyone who likes it sucks, they probably shouldn't be there in the first place. There are forums for the older editions, fans of those editions would be much better served there.
This. QFT. The 4E haters need to find something more productive to do with their time than "LOLOLOLOL u all sux0rz u paly $e LOLOLOL ROFL LMAO!"
Ehh, this isn't even worth fighting over. Trolls will be trolls, we will help people know the difference between truth and lies and the world will move on.
I wouldn't waste anymore time talking with said troll, he sent me a rather lovely PM and I see no reason to keep feeding it.
Better to let it waste away, IMHO.
**Chuckle**
The 4e avengers have simply become like the advertisement... GOT MILK?
It was a clever idea, then EVERYONE had to jump on the bandwagon.
WOOWEE look at me I am 4e XMEN, I am 4e SPIDERMAN, I am 4E JLA, I am 4e Green Lantern Corps, I am 4E Manthing.
So it is just an eyeroll really. Are there really that many 3.5 legions of doom out there that there have to be all of these 4e supergroups? It is just silly now.
For those of us that like comics maybe we can just put down who we like most, instead of relinquishing them to the silliness that is a 4e defending comicbook hero signature.
Anyways; we seem to have another prime example of being attacked for no reason.
*Edit; Mournblade94, that was not meant against you. I am talking about a different thread on these boards. Just want to make that clear.
Speaking of trolls...
Anyways; we seem to have another prime example of being attacked for no reason.
*Edit; Mournblade94, that was not meant against you. I am talking about a different thread on these boards. Just want to make that clear.
No worries!
They are an inquisition and should be banned
Nobody bans the Spanish Inquisition!
Oh; and please don't bother sending me PMs, when I get PMs from people such as yourself they are simply deleted without being read.
Cheers.
On a completely pessimistic side, it just sounds like some people just want to be noticed. There's some 366k members here and the only way someone can get noticed is through infamy, either from the lovers or haters side.;)
Oh I see, the super groups tend to stick to the general forum.
so you'll find some people more prevalent in some forums, although we're generally active in the General Forum, yes.
That's a bit of an understatement.
I question, what 'expertise' is needed in a general forum. I hadn't known there was a need for experts in generalities.
An it's not so much about being notices as about being a geek and helping people whilst having funny names.
I mean, come on!!! We're geeks to the core mostly and why shouldn't we give ourselves a funny thing to enjoy it even more?! ;)
You want to have a funny thing to enjoy at the cost of antagonizing others? Doesn't that go against the whole concept of a 'superhero'?
As a person who rarely spends any time in the general forums(I've spent more time there today than I have since the new forums came online) I understand why there is this friction.
As a person who likes 4e, I don't like this concept of 'I want to be special' that is exuded from the supergroups.
We geeks and nerds have enough problems, bringing another hierarchy into our social system....makes no sense.
I've read the posts from the supergroups, most bring nothing to the discussion besides borderline baiting to the other posters imho.
Where does some one post about their dislikes of 4e? Some of you superheroes have mentioned that you have some things that you aren't completely happy with, then why all the antagonism towards others? It doesn't matter if it is from the same group of posters. If the legion of doom is not allowed to express their opinion, why are you guys allowed to?
Or how about the concept of a hero needs a villain? The bigger your group(s) become the more you create of the other? Why can't the opposing group say "why shouldn't we give ourselves a funny thing to enjoy it even more?! ;) "
That's a bit of an understatement.
As a person who likes 4e, I don't like this concept of 'I want to be special' that is exuded from the supergroups.
We geeks and nerds have enough problems, bringing another hierarchy into our social system....makes no sense.
How is a group that is open to anyone creating a hierarchy?
The original concept was to try and create a sense of community. If you think the general forums are hostile now you obviously haven't spent much time there over the past month. The only antagonism I have seen from anyone in these groups has been directed against people openly stating things like "I hate 4e and know it will fail soon" "I hate 4e though I have never seen the books" "anybody who likes 4e is stupid" None of those statements are exactly encouraging a discussion about D&D.
If you look through the first page of the general discussion forum right now, at 1:19pm, I see 4 ongoing threads about problems with 4e that are completely polite. The general discussion forum is a place to discuss D&D, both the pros and the cons and that is what people are doing, as I see it.
Yeah, that's true. They'll realise that their 3.5 books are still there eventually.
Very helpful, that. And there was no attack preceding it. At all. For the most part the "Avengers" are fine. But I still feel it is needlessly seperatist. And if your goal is to help, comments like the above should not really come up, no? ;)
Ahem,
Very helpful, that. And there was no attack preceding it. At all. For the most part the "Avengers" are fine. But I still feel it is needlessly seperatist. And if your goal is to help, comments like the above should not really come up, no? ;)
Stupid question... where is the quote from?
I looked all through the thread and don't see it anywhere. Wizos usually post something when they start deleting posts.
Stupid question... where is the quote from?
I looked all through the thread and don't see it anywhere. Wizos usually post something when they start deleting posts.
Not stupid at all, actually. Stupid of me not to mention where, maybe. ;)
It's post #38 on page 2 of the "Fixing 4the Edition" thread (General). There's some great "advice" given elsewhere in the thread as well, but it cannot be attributed to any Avenger. There's also some great examples of Avengers trying to prevent issues. And some snide remarks as well. Still, not a great representation of the "mission statement" - or whatever it's called.
How is a group that is open to anyone creating a hierarchy?
So you're saying anyone is able to become one? There is no criteria? If you have any criteria than you have a hierarchy.
The original concept was to try and create a sense of community. If you think the general forums are hostile now you obviously haven't spent much time there over the past month. The only antagonism I have seen from anyone in these groups has been directed against people openly stating things like "I hate 4e and know it will fail soon" "I hate 4e though I have never seen the books" "anybody who likes 4e is stupid" None of those statements are exactly encouraging a discussion about D&D.
Isn't that sense of 'community' based on what the 'groups' think is community? Which again establishes a hierarchy.
What about the people who have played 4e and find that they don't like it? Can they not express that view?
Show
Reading your posts, you've obviously decided that 4E isn't for you.
Why are you still here?
How in anyway is that a helpful response? What in any way is this post supposed to do, besides antagonize the poster?
It is just a question as to why a person hangs around a site for something that he or she dislikes. For example, I do not like romance novels. Would it make sense for me to hang around a forum for a line of romance novels complaining that they aren't fantasy or science fiction novels?
When asked why he should leave another 'hero' says:
There is no real useful discussion going on, and as much as I enjoy watching a thread slowly but surely slide towards a flame-war and eventual WizO-smackage, I really can't allow it to do so.
Ahem,
Very helpful, that. And there was no attack preceding it. At all.
In the very first post of that thread, people who like 4E were referred to as fanboys, and told their opinions were not welcome in the thread. Sounds like an attack to me.
Also, the comment you quoted was directed at the latest identity of PsionX, who fairly much outright flames 4E and people who like it in the vast majority of his posts.
It is just a question as to why a person hangs around a site for something that he or she dislikes. For example, I do not like romance novels. Would it make sense for me to hang around a forum for a line of romance novels complaining that they aren't fantasy or science fiction novels?
Because the poster is playing 4e?
You are misrepresenting this. What I was actually responding to was a scathing comment toward Batshido, stating that he has no right to tell other posters to leave, which Bat had not done. I simply pointed that out.
I didn't misrepresent. When someone says "why are you here" He is telling the person to leave.
How in anyway is that a helpful response? What in any way is this post supposed to do, besides antagonize the poster?
Let's say, for sake of argument, that you couldn't stand the color purple. Your aversion goes to the point where you won't buy anything that's purple, get antsy when you're in the room with someone wearing purple and just generally can't be around people who do like purple and risk seeing it.
Now, let's then assume that you find a building in your neighborhood that is done entirely in purple. Purple drapes, purple wallpaper, artificial purple marble on the floors, etc. It's all about the purple, and the people that live there are at least ambivalent about it some going so far as to dress in purple as to identify themselves more closely with their choice of residences.
You then decide to spend at least a few hours there every day from that point forward yelling at the people who live in the purple building and accusing them of oppressing you by there existence.
Coming into a forum about a game you don't like and harassing the people who are there to discuss it isn't any more rational than that.
In the very first post of that thread, people who like 4E were referred to as fanboys, and told their opinions were not welcome in the thread. Sounds like an attack to me.
Also, the comment you quoted was directed at the latest identity of PsionX, who fairly much outright flames 4E and people who like it in the vast majority of his posts.
One last bit, I guess. ;) That attack was met with many from "fanboys". And many snide comments as well. The quote I posted did indeed reference a Psionx post. Psionx, though, did not flame anyone in this thread and was still attacked. So my statement stands. If you want to be helpful, refrain from snide commentary and flaming someone simply because of their name. He didn't say anything in that thread that warranted a flamey rebuttal. Nothing. So, unless you want people to think of the Avengers as simply a reactionary mob formed to backslap one-another in any 4e defense - warranted or not - I'd quit this stuff. Now, where's that lock?
For what it is worth, I am recommending to Webster that this thread be locked.
There is no real useful discussion going on, and as much as I enjoy watching a thread slowly but surely slide towards a flame-war and eventual WizO-smackage, I really can't allow it to do so.
Maybe, but ignoring the problem doesn't help. It only encourages one set of posters to continue their ways
Yeah. Closing this is the best idea to come out of it. It's my fault it went this way when I added a comment when agreeing with the OP. For what it's worth - my bad. I've made my thoughts clear enough and have seen enough in rebuttal to understand that nothing is going to change with this particular topic. And that's ok. Really. People can make their own decisions about the silly sig tags and the individuals that use them (hopefully on an individual basis). Oh ... almost forgot ... IBTL!!! ;)
It does need to be said. Hopefully since some of the posters in here aren't 'villains' we made some head way. I seriously doubt it, but we can hope, small hope that it is.
One last bit, I guess. ;) That attack was met with many from "fanboys". And many snide comments as well. The quote I posted did indeed reference a Psionx post. Psionx, though, did not flame anyone in this thread and was still attacked. So my statement stands. If you want to be helpful, refrain from snide commentary and flaming someone simply because of their name. He didn't say anything in that thread that warranted a flamey rebuttal. Nothing. So, unless you want people to think of the Avengers as simply a reactionary mob formed to backslap one-another in any 4e defense - warranted or not - I'd quit this stuff. Now, where's that lock?
He's a troll. That's been established. Hell, he's been banned for it, this is his 3rd alt at least. It's a stretch to qualify him as anything other than a baiter on his best day.
As to that specific thread that you linked to, there are also not a small number of pro posters asking the others not to derail the thread, in fact the post you quoted was a response to one of them.
It's easy to demonize people when you take them out of context.
Let's say, for sake of argument, that you couldn't stand the color purple. Your aversion goes to the point where you won't buy anything that's purple, get antsy when you're in the room with someone wearing purple and just generally can't be around people who do like purple and risk seeing it.
Now, let's then assume that you find a building in your neighborhood that is done entirely in purple. Purple drapes, purple wallpaper, artificial purple marble on the floors, etc. It's all about the purple, and the people that live there are at least ambivalent about it some going so far as to dress in purple as to identify themselves more closely with their choice of residences.
You then decide to spend at least a few hours there every day from that point forward yelling at the people who live in the purple building and accusing them of oppressing you by there existence.
Coming into a forum about a game you don't like and harassing the people who are there to discuss it isn't any more rational than that.
I agree with you about the people who refuse to play the game, but are here 24/7 complaining about it. But that poster is playing the game.
You know the best idea is just to ignore the thread and let it die. The more the heroes comment on it, the more others will as well.
Maybe, but ignoring the problem doesn't help. It only encourages one set of posters to continue their ways
Unless you're a pro poster, in which case it's the only thing you're allowed to do without being compared to the Gestapo.
So you're saying anyone is able to become one? There is no criteria? If you have any criteria than you have a hierarchy.
We asked people to be polite, but that is in the CoC that everyone agreed to when they joined. So no criteria other than what people that have joined this board have already agreed to.
I agree with you about the people who refuse to play the game, but are here 24/7 complaining about it. But that poster is playing the game.
Claiming to have played the game is quite different from actually playing the game. If he was asking for help to make his game better, or asking questions about the game itself, that's one thing. He was obviously unhappy with it and only there to bash. At that point, I think asking why they're still on a forum for a game they don't like is a completely reasonable question.
You know the best idea is just to ignore the thread and let it die. The more the heroes comment on it, the more others will as well.
Which is why I didn't comment outside of asking the others not to.
Because the poster is playing 4e?
I didn't misrepresent. When someone says "why are you here" He is telling the person to leave.
Sometimes, but not always. In Batshido's case, it seems he is merely wondering why someone would hang around somewheres they do not like.
He's a troll. That's been established. Hell, he's been banned for it, this is his 3rd alt at least. It's a stretch to qualify him as anything other than a baiter on his best day.
As to that specific thread that you linked to, there are also not a small number of pro posters asking the others not to derail the thread, in fact the post you quoted was a response to one of them.
It's easy to demonize people when you take them out of context.
Or to demonize people who don't agree with you?
If you know he is baiting, why in the world do you take the bait? Just put him on ignore and continue on.
This is my point about the version of community espoused by the heroes.
He's a troll. That's been established. Hell, he's been banned for it, this is his 3rd alt at least. It's a stretch to qualify him as anything other than a baiter on his best day.
As to that specific thread that you linked to, there are also not a small number of pro posters asking the others not to derail the thread, in fact the post you quoted was a response to one of them.
It's easy to demonize people when you take them out of context.
Oh I know that. And I don't condone what he tries to do. But even you can admit that nothing he stated in the thread in question was baiting, trolling or flaming. And, if he was simply replying in the spirit of the thread, why attack him? I didn't take anything out of context here. I even mentioned in a previous post that some of you were trying to keep it civil. Though, on occasion, this was done with the addition of a snide comment. Look, stuff like this makes the "we just want to help" theory fall apart. If that's the case, why disrupt a thread to smash Psionx? Especially when he did absolutely nothing in this thread to warrant it. It just looks bad. And the more moderate Avengers will get lumped with the guys that feel it's ok to harass a forum member because of past behavior and regardless of if he deserves it or not.
Or to demonize people who don't agree with you?
Not demonizing. Pointing to the poster's own words and actions. The day that's "demonizing" I'm apparently dealing with actual demons.
If you know he is baiting, why in the world do you take the bait? Just put him on ignore and continue on.
You said it yourself; sometimes it needs to be answered. He spouts falsehoods that are implicitly true until they are disproven. If that doesn't happen, new players and players new to the system are getting bad information.
This is my point about the version of community espoused by the heroes.
My ideal community doesn't have to deal with people who are just there to cause trouble. Unfortunately, that's a bit of a pipedream. Until we figure out how to stop trolls before they show up, people are going to keep reacting to them. It's not our fault they're there, don't lay it on us.
Not to mention most posts by said troll are deleted, so we have no way to know what might have been said.
I followed the thread closely and nothing was said until one of your group decided to smash him for no other reason than he was Psionx. I hate defending the dude, really, but he did nothing wrong - this time. His reward? One Avenger making a snide comment and others defending that action because of past behavior - not even in the same thread, mind. Helpful, no?
Oh I know that. And I don't condone what he tries to do. But even you can admit that nothing he stated in the thread in question was baiting, trolling or flaming. And, if he was simply replying in the spirit of the thread, why attack him? I didn't take anything out of context here. I even mentioned in a previous post that some of you were trying to keep it civil. Though, on occasion, this was done with the addition of a snide comment. Look, stuff like this makes the "we just want to help" theory fall apart. If that's the case, why disrupt a thread to smash Psionx? Especially when he did absolutely nothing in this thread to warrant it. It just looks bad. And the more moderate Avengers will get lumped with the guys that feel it's ok to harass a forum member because of past behavior and regardless of if he deserves it or not.
PsionX has been banned. He continues using the same Alts because whoever does the banning apparently lacks the stones to make it stick. If he wants actual discussion, he should make himself a new alt that doesn't look like any of his old ones and start fresh. Otherwise, he's just calling attention to himself (which is his entire MO) and will never be taken seriously by anyone who he's not "backing up" in a particular thread.
I've made a point to stay out of the 4E-bashing circle-jerks because nothing good is going to come of it.
Or to demonize people who don't agree with you?
If you know he is baiting, why in the world do you take the bait? Just put him on ignore and continue on.
This is my point about the version of community espoused by the heroes.
Are you trying to argue that batshido is demonizing the poster who regularly says "I haven't touched the 4e books and never will, but I enjoy flaming it anyways" and admits he is breaking the CoC with every post because he is creating new accounts when his old ones get banned?
From the CoC under prohibited screen names
Variations of a deactivated screen name, as may be evidenced by your declarations under a new screen name that you are "really" the deactivated name, may also be deactivated and the account holder may have his or her account terminated.
I followed the thread closely and nothing was said until one of your group decided to smash him for no other reason than he was Psionx. I hate defending the dude, really, but he did nothing wrong - this time. His reward? One Avenger making a snide comment and others defending that action because of past behavior - not even in the same thread, mind. Helpful, no?
First, a troll is a troll is a troll. Especially one with as long and storied a history as that one. Him continuing to be here after his past performances is in-and-of-itself baiting. If he wants actual conversation he needs a different account (and god knows he's not adverse to that).
Second, the thread was going fine because the pro crowd had the sense to stay out of it for the most part. In fact, several of us had posted there to shoo away anyone who was derailing it. I don't really see what else we could be doing at this point.
Can you send me a link to the thread, specifically? The quote I saw didn't have one.
I've made a point to stay out of the 4E-bashing circle-jerks because nothing good is going to come of it.
This is page 2. Start at about post 35 to get the gist. It has a Psionx quote and the first response that gets it on the way. There is deleted content, but it was an attack on Psionx that was removed - not by a known Avenger, either.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1067462&page=2
This is page 2. Start at about post 35 to get the gist. It has a Psionx quote and the first response that gets it on the way. There is deleted content, but it was an attack on Psionx that was removed - not by a known Avenger, either.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1067462&page=2
Yep, post 35 is Sammy jumping in to reply to PsionX specifically talking about never playing either game outside of one D&D game day. He went a bit overboard admittedly, but the point was sound.
Post 36, the very next fracking post, is another "Avenger" telling him to knock it off.
But go ahead, paint with that big wide brush. I'm sure you'll eventually find the right color to get us all banned by association.
First, a troll is a troll is a troll. Especially one with as long and storied a history as that one. Him continuing to be here after his past performances is in-and-of-itself baiting. If he wants actual conversation he needs a different account (and god knows he's not adverse to that).
Second, the thread was going fine because the pro crowd had the sense to stay out of it for the most part. In fact, several of us had posted there to shoo away anyone who was derailing it. I don't really see what else we could be doing at this point.
Yes. And singling someone out because of external knowledge of past behavior - ignoring the atypical and benign posts in question - is not being helpful. It's harrasment. And when someone with an Avenger tag decides to harrass a poster, everyone with that tag is associated with the harrassment. And I did give those that talked of keeping out credit. But there were snide comments added to some of those mentions as well. "Let them have their thread?" What the hell? How is that blatant side choosing commentary helpful? Or should the OP and participants be thankful they were spared 4e hellfire in this one case?
I have put in the request that this thread be locked.
Or should the OP and participants be thankful they were spared 4e hellfire in this one case?
When the OP contains the phrase "I don't want to hear from the fanboys," yes, they should probably be thankful they weren't flamed into next week. Given that the first post contained textbook baiting, I think the "Avengers" as a whole showed a lot of restraint.
As to the PsionX thing, there's a very simple solution; ban him again and delete every post he makes. Until that happens, he's just going to keep trolling and people are going to keep responding negatively to him.
Yep, post 35 is Sammy jumping in to reply to PsionX specifically talking about never playing either game outside of one D&D game day. He went a bit overboard admittedly, but the point was sound.
Post 36, the very next fracking post, is another "Avenger" telling him to knock it off.
But go ahead, paint with that big wide brush. I'm sure you'll eventually find the right color to get us all banned by association.
Now who's looking for boogeymen? ;) I have repeatedly stated that some people were trying to keep things under control there. I've never called for anyone's ban, either. Nor have I reported any Avenger or h4ter post. I've even conceded the point that the Avengers will exist and are - mostly - focused on helping others. Still, some are exactly the type of poster the people that have problems with Avengers see. And this is proof. And so are the many "GTFOs" and such that got deleted in older threads - by Avenger and non-Avenger alike. I guess maybe I'm saying you need to police your members if you want to be taken "seriously". As it is, it's a couple of nice guys and gals being overshadowed by the behavior of fanatics. And people don't remember the good.
Sigh
I have put in the request that this thread be locked.
Works for me.
When did the Community Business forums become a referendum on pro-4E posters, anyway? Seems like there used to be actual, useful stuff talked about around here.
When did the Community Business forums become a referendum on pro-4E posters, anyway? Seems like there used to be actual, useful stuff talked about around here.
When regular posters got bullied out of the general forum.
When the OP contains the phrase "I don't want to hear from the fanboys," yes, they should probably be thankful they weren't flamed into next week. Given that the first post contained textbook baiting, I think the "Avengers" as a whole showed a lot of restraint.
As to the PsionX thing, there's a very simple solution; ban him again and delete every post he makes. Until that happens, he's just going to keep trolling and people are going to keep responding negatively to him.
Yeah. That comment was unneeded. But yours are equally telling. "they should probably be thankful they weren't flamed into next week. Given that the first post contained textbook baiting, I think the "Avengers" as a whole showed a lot of restraint." Since when does a group that's purpose is helping people with questions need restraint? Why does that word, if it is indeed solely set up to be a helpful organization, even enter the conversation? Restraint? So, you're not enforcers at all - but the OP is lucky you didn't decide to loose the dogs on him? Interesting.
Now who's looking for boogeymen? ;) I have repeatedly stated that some people were trying to keep things under control there. I've never called for anyone's ban, either. Nor have I reported any Avenger or h4ter post. I've even conceded the point that the Avengers will exist and are - mostly - focused on helping others. Still, some are exactly the type of poster the people that have problems with Avengers see. And this is proof. And so are the many "GTFOs" and such that got deleted in older threads - by Avenger and non-Avenger alike. I guess maybe I'm saying you need to police your members if you want to be taken "seriously". As it is, it's a couple of nice guys and gals being overshadowed by the behavior of fanatics. And people don't remember the good.
What lengths are we supposed to go to, exactly? Somebody acts stupid, we catch them and try to coax them back over the line.
If the "Avengers" didn't exist the problems wouldn't go away. Aggressive posters are aggressive posters. At least with the group we've got we have some sense of camaraderie that can get people to try to act like adults a little more often.
Are free-range flamers on both sides really preferable to at least having a little bit of positive peer pressure to apply on the ones that are naturally inclined to take the bait?
When regular posters got bullied out of the general forum.
Ah, the "Avenger" hunter returns.
I'll start watching out for drive-by character assassinations again. Thanks for the heads up.
I don't have anything against you either, however what you are doing is adding to the angst on the forums, weather you want to admit to that or not, it's just the same.
We already have a community. It's called the DnD forums. Trying to be more or adding to that no matter what you may think is a smack at elitism. No one asked you to be our defenders, nor is it needed. There already is a program for that designed and implemented by WotC.
Answering the posts of known person's of interest does nothing for the forums at all. In fact it adds to the negative feeling on both sides. Just let it go. The more time you spend 'defending' the less time you have to help.
Lets be honest, you guys are using sophistry to claim what you do isn't baiting and antagonizing certain people. It cuts both ways.
Restraint? So, you're not enforcers at all - but the OP is lucky you didn't decide to loose the dogs on him? Interesting.
Nobody's loosing dogs; dogs get loose. I don't want that thread flamed anymore than anyone else, but posters are posters. It would be one thing if we were all physically in the same place, but people on the internet tend towards asshatery with a disturbing reliability.
Basically, the OP is lucky no one took him up on the implicit bait, Avenger or not. That post, though it may not have been the intent, is effectively telling a huge swath of the forum population to STFU and go elsewhere. That's the kind of thing that tends to engender hard feelings.
What lengths are we supposed to go to, exactly? Somebody acts stupid, we catch them and try to coax them back over the line.
If the "Avengers" didn't exist the problems wouldn't go away. Aggressive posters are aggressive posters. At least with the group we've got we have some sense of camaraderie that can get people to try to act like adults a little more often.
Are free-range flamers on both sides really preferable to at least having a little bit of positive peer pressure to apply on the ones that are naturally inclined to take the bait?
There's nothing you can do, of course. All I'm saying now is that smashing people for having problems with Avengers as head hunters or what-have-you is not the way to go about it. There's plenty of people that act horrendously to fellow posters from both sides. Some happen to have sig tags. Still, I can't argue with a group applying peer pressure to control outbursts. It helps both sides, after all. But it can also appear to be an organization against one poster that disagrees with the "party line", as it were.
Oh well. Let's hope the lock comes soon. I've said too much. And I'd rather not be on bad terms with you. You can be aggressive on occasion, but you usually have some pretty good stuff to say. And who isn't aggressive at times? ;) I'm not after you or your organization's head. Never was. It's jist that some see it as a group of people that exist to fight negative opinions of 4e. And some members do, too. At any rate, good luck with it. Once things calm a bit more I doubt it will even be a question and those trying to help - sincerely - will be better able to do so.