WizO Ginger wrote:
I think it's unbelievable that there are people posting here that have bosted that they want to post negative things to try and discourage others from playing 4th edition. We won't name any names, though.
DO people not have anything better to do than cause trouble?
The moderators may be tolerating it, but it's just sad that people who are posting on these forums specifically to complain and cause trouble are allowed to continue to spew their bile.
I think it's unbelievable that there are people posting here that have bosted that they want to post negative things to try and discourage others from playing 4th edition. We won't name any names, though.
DO people not have anything better to do than cause trouble?
Why? They're just trying to save the other people some money and help them find whether or not they would enjoy 4e. Thats a very noble cause.
There's no need to "take up a cause" and post. Indeed, if you've got a cause then your intention IS to be disruptive as opposed to having an honest opinion that you don't like 4e.
And there is a clear (somewhat) difference between trolling and an opinion.
"I don't like how there are no saving throws in 4e. And selecting spells is confusing." Valid point.
"4e sux! Save your money! WotC is just greedy!" is trolling.
There are still 3e boards here and as pointed out, if people are focusing their energy on being on the 4e boards rather than the 3e boards talking about 3e, the decision may come down that it's not worth having 3e boards.
It's up to each individual to decide what they'd rather spend their time doing.
(Which should be discussing D&D...)
Yes, but trolling is actually not acceptable. While calling people trolls is unacceptable, actually trolling is as well.
There's no need to "take up a cause" and post. Indeed, if you've got a cause then your intention IS to be disruptive as opposed to having an honest opinion that you don't like 4e.
And there is a clear (somewhat) difference between trolling and an opinion.
"I don't like how there are no saving throws in 4e. And selecting spells is confusing." Valid point.
"4e sux! Save your money! WotC is just greedy!" is trolling.
There are still 3e boards here and as pointed out, if people are focusing their energy on being on the 4e boards rather than the 3e boards talking about 3e, the decision may come down that it's not worth having 3e boards.
It's up to each individual to decide what they'd rather spend their time doing.
(Which should be discussing D&D...)
Two wrongs do not a right make. They have no right whatsoever to use the word troll in such ways. You can probably use it here because you are a VCL, but no way should it be used by anyone without the official authority.
It would probably be way more effective than trolling and then crying to the mods when people call you on it.
Just start reporting the people calling others trolls. When they get banned for it a few times, they'll stop.
Sound advice, I shall apply it. Thanks
.And no, two wrongs don't make a right, but the second wrong doesn't negate the first wrong, nor does the first wrong excuse the second wrong. (Ugh... I'm not even speaking and my tongue got tied.)
The point is, people shouldn't be looking to cause trouble. Do people have problems with 4e? Sure, but keep in mind there are people who want to help FIX those problems, rather than just rant about them. (Are people looking for solutions/fixes, or just ranting? "There's no druid! 4e is bad!" vs. "There's no druid in the PHB, does someone have one home brewed, or when can I expect to see an official version?" )
I'm not calling anyone a troll, just pointing out that there is a line between showing actual concerns about the game, and going to a board to cause problems.
And no, two wrongs don't make a right, but the second wrong doesn't negate the first wrong, nor does the first wrong excuse the second wrong. (Ugh... I'm not even speaking and my tongue got tied.)
The point is, people shouldn't be looking to cause trouble. Do people have problems with 4e? Sure, but keep in mind there are people who want to help FIX those problems, rather than just rant about them. (Are people looking for solutions/fixes, or just ranting? "There's no druid! 4e is bad!" vs. "There's no druid in the PHB, does someone have one home brewed, or when can I expect to see an official version?" )
You see webster, the problem is that some posts are like rubber cubes with bits of metal inside. You would have to destroy the rubber cubes to remove the metal, or you could use a magnet to pick up the metal posts, but the rubber with metal posts get picked up as well. So, what really happens is that some posts have just enough metal to set of the alarms, but not enough to be picked up by the magnets. See what I mean? Now, a concoction has been made that can dissolve the metal in the rubber by seeping through its pores, but that stuff takes a while to make and it's so much easier to just sweep over it with a magnet. Also, sometimes, some people can electrify the metal in other posts to make it enough for a magnet to pick up. Some exceedingly rare people also have a gift to make even rubber posts magnetic or normally magnetic metal less magnetic. That would be referred to as the gift of gab.
It's not necessary to stick the metal in the cubes. People don't need to do that.
;)
Yes, exactly. And there are some folks who just want to shove in as much metal as possible to shred the rubber cubes, destroying other people's fun by setting off the alarm just for the sake of shredding the cubes with bits of metal and setting off alarms when they've got their own rubber cube they could be enjoying.
It's not necessary to stick the metal in the cubes. People don't need to do that.
;)
You might want to re-read my post. I edit stuff a lot some times. Some people can magnetize rubber as insane as it sounds... why such people would do something like that... who knows?
Some folks who don't like 4e are upset enough to want people who do like 4e to be upset as well. An edition war is not necessary. Nor it is necessary to try to upset other people, which is part of the CoC.
Note I said some. Not all, not most.
There are others who just like to make others upset and it doesn't matter to them if 4e is good or not, they just want to push buttons because they think it's fun.
Folks that like 4e generally are not upset at the changes. I don't see, for example, pro 4e people going to the previous editions boards saying "3e sucks! Don't waste your money on it!" The problem seems to be on the current edition boards.
So, that's what we're working on cleaning up. Pro 4e people even invite constructive criticism. Take note of the constructive word in that sentence. If someone has a better way of running/playing 4e, they want to hear about it. (Of course, if it's home brewed, it would go on the house rules forum.)
And there is a clear (somewhat) difference between trolling and an opinion.
"I don't like how there are no saving throws in 4e. And selecting spells is confusing." Valid point.
"4e sux! Save your money! WotC is just greedy!" is trolling.
But there have been threads with valid opinions and not trolling (as per your examples above), where a civil and respectful tone and constructive criticism was maintained (or mostly maintained) throughout, and yet that still didn't save the thread from being merged into one of the megathreads (admittedly, that's not exactly the same as deleting or closing the thread, but it usually results in a slow thread death at the end).
And when someone tells you that you've hurt them, try to take that seriously. They're fellow human beings (even if they're on the other side of the internet), and if you've hurt them, even unintentionally, you should do what you can to rectify that, within reason. That's just part of being a good person.
But there have been threads with valid opinions and not trolling (as per your examples above), where a civil and respectful tone and constructive criticism was maintained (or mostly maintained) throughout, and yet that still didn't save the thread from being merged into one of the megathreads (admittedly, that's not exactly the same as deleting or closing the thread, but it usually results in a slow thread death at the end).
The megathread isn't for the trolls, it's for the glut of amateur reviews that were taking up the entirety of the Gen boards. Only swift and brutal bannings and vigilance against blatantly obvious re-registration of banned accounts will stop trolls.
It is interesting that potentially interesting threads get shut down because of people jumping in and starting arguments for the purpose of eliminating that thread. This thread, however, was made for the sole purpose of goading people, and it is allowed to continue.
Its also an attempt to gain permission/legitimacy for certain kinds of behavior.
It is interesting that potentially interesting threads get shut down because of people jumping in and starting arguments for the purpose of eliminating that thread. This thread, however, was made for the sole purpose of goading people, and it is allowed to continue.
Vaalingrade Ashland is a good case in point. He has been repeatedly accused of having a smug and condescending attitude by various people, which I believe to be a very accurate perception. Vaalingrade Ashland is also hypocritical for his zero-tolerance for trolling, as his reference to "amateur reviews" could easily be construed as goading, or belittling at the very least. Is a moderator going to call him on that? I don't think so. I believe that after such goading and inflamatory remarks, a heavy hand will take down the entire thread (even the parts that are civil and constructive), rather than surgically dealing with the original cause.
Just out of curiosity, what are we discussing again?
The clever bit here is that *I* didn't name people in my excoriation because it would be a personal attack.
I trust and I hope the moderator will not accept some sort of technical loophole like that. In my defense, I was very careful to avoid making any personal attack (ie., you're a bad person vs you did a bad thing) and I provided evidence (do a search for your alias and "condescending") and opinions ("I believe...") to support my statement and my tone was civil and moderate. However, if I had simply labelled you as an amateur, I believe that would be a personal attack and an example of goading and hypocrisy on my part. I am sorry to have picked on you specifically, but many times in life, it helps to make an example of someone without actually resorting to a personal attack.
Only subtle attacks or sweeping general attacks will be tolerated! ;)
Indeed
What I said? It wasn't directed at anyone. It wasn't even directed at a side and saying 'amateur reviews' is a completely accurate statement. 99% of those threads are 'I read the book/played once, let me tell you my thoughts on the experience' written by people who are not professional or even hobbyist reviewers.
In other words, amateur reviews. And they were everywhere; and they were essentially the exact same thread. More importantly, they were pushing all other discussion off the front page and triggering the exact same edition war discussion. Merging them was a very good thing because having a bunch of the same thread floating is just going to invite more of that same thread.
If someone takes offense at the use of the word 'amateur' in a context where 'amateur' is the right word, it's not on me and it certainly doesn't excuse their using it to air their beefs with me in public instead of taking it to PMs.
Edit: Also, I didn't participate in the Trolls thread. It's about a troll on the FR forums and I've no connection to that board.
Vaalingrade Ashland is a good case in point.
He may not always be pleasant, but he does not continually jump into threads for the sole purpose of derailing it. He is not at all an example of what I stated.
Here's the plot:
What I said? It wasn't directed at anyone. It wasn't even directed at a side and saying 'amateur reviews' is a completely accurate statement. 99% of those threads are 'I read the book/played once, let me tell you my thoughts on the experience' written by people who are not professional or even hobbyist reviewers.
In other words, amateur reviews. And they were everywhere; and they were essentially the exact same thread. More importantly, they were pushing all other discussion off the front page and triggering the exact same edition war discussion. Merging them was a very good thing because having a bunch of the same thread floating is just going to invite more of that same thread.
If someone takes offense at the use of the word 'amateur' in a context where 'amateur' is the right word, it's not on me and it certainly doesn't excuse their using it to air their beefs with me in public instead of taking it to PMs.
Edit: Also, I didn't participate in the Trolls thread. It's about a troll on the FR forums and I've no connection to that board.
So, vaal, if you were a WizO, you're telling me that you would be issuing a lot of perma bans and you'd probably institute an ssl to make sure we wouldn't come back? Because you weren't that dedicated with your forums on your comic. You were very tolerant there and we had some great discussion. What happened?
I'd do exactly what Webster is doing now with the first impression threads and could easily make due perming six people and O-warning about three more.
What I said? It wasn't directed at anyone. It wasn't even directed at a side and saying 'amateur reviews' is a completely accurate statement. 99% of those threads are 'I read the book/played once, let me tell you my thoughts on the experience' written by people who are not professional or even hobbyist reviewers.
If moderators deleted all the amateur opinions, then there would be lots of virtual tumbleweed here. The way I see it, labelling people as "amateur" is still goading, even if it's true. Try going to a party of laymen and call everyone an amateur, I don't think you'd be very popular. So while you may safely sit behind the computer and complain about the "mass of sophomoric filth", well, in my opinion, I find that to be the kind of chip-on-the-shoulder remark that is far less palatable than most "amateur" reviews. And if we're talking about creating a happy forum experience, I feel that we need less trolling and less condescending.
Anyway, my original point that is there were one or two specific threads that were thoughtful and interesting and constructive, and they shouldn't have all been lumped together with the kind of posts that I think you're talking about (whether those specific threads were written by professionals or amateurs is a red herring, for me).
Edit: Also, I didn't participate in the Trolls thread. It's about a troll on the FR forums and I've no connection to that board.
Oops, sorry, my mistake.
The irony of leshracnuker making a thread about trolling is staggering, considering the only thing I've seen from them (in my brief time here, admittedly) is a whole slew of anti-4e rhetoric & not much more.
I agree.
Is it against the CoC to call someone a "leshracnuker" instead of a troll? 'Cause if so, I could totally get on board with that.
:heehee Oh, that's just epic.
Is it against the CoC to call someone a "leshracnuker" instead of a troll? 'Cause if so, I could totally get on board with that.
Maybe, maybe not. But we could start a campaign where we pop into every thread on every forum and urge people not to spend time reading
Maybe, maybe not. But we could start a campaign where we pop into every thread on every forum and urge people not to spend time readingpsionxpsuliinleshracnuker posts because we don't like his posts or the fact that they aren't written as well as psionx posts were.
Nah, to me that's pretty much e-bullying. Besides, if you're going through that much trouble, you're basically being a troll, yourself. ;)
See, I just take issue with the fact that the CoC works in favor of trolls by protecting them from the obvious repurcussions of their actions. I was raised to call a spade a spade & speak my mind, & if someone's clearly being a troll, I see no problem with the rest of the group calling them out for it.
Nah, to me that's pretty much e-bullying. Besides, if you're going through that much trouble, you're basically being a troll, yourself. ;)
See, I just take issue with the fact that the CoC works in favor of trolls by protecting them from the obvious repurcussions of their actions. I was raised to call a spade a spade & speak my mind, & if someone's clearly being a troll, I see no problem with the rest of the group calling them out for it.
I wouldnt actually do it, just pointing out how much fun it might be to give someone a taste of their own medicine. Kinda like making Carrot Top watch episodes of Step By Step.
psuliin isn't me. I don't know where you got that idea, but you might want to check join dates.
just shameless uninformed speculation. C;mon, you know all about that big guy. Besides, its just my opinion.
If moderators deleted all the amateur opinions, then there would be lots of virtual tumbleweed here.
Which is why I'm behind the megathread initiative. People still get to put up their first impressions without cluttering the forums.
The way I see it, labelling people as "amateur" is still goading, even if it's true. Try going to a party of laymen and call everyone an amateur, I don't think you'd be very popular.
I better cancel my membership in the local amateur geology club then. Those guys must hate themselves.
So while you may safely sit behind the computer and complain about the "mass of sophomoric filth", well, in my opinion, I find that to be the kind of chip-on-the-shoulder remark that is far less palatable than most "amateur" reviews.
You're not privvy to the entire exchange, but that's in reference to psionx/mortred/lescwhatever invading the forums I own and spewing foul language and inexplicable homophobia and getting banned over it. He's very, very bitter about it.
And if we're talking about creating a happy forum experience, I feel that we need less trolling and less condescending.
You'll see that the two correlate almost perfectly. I don't suffer trolls well.
Anyway, my original point that is there were one or two specific threads that were thoughtful and interesting and constructive, and they shouldn't have all been lumped together with the kind of posts that I think you're talking about (whether those specific threads were written by professionals or amateurs is a red herring, for me).
That's something you have to take up with Webster. He's very fair on this stuff and probably tanked them because someone told him they were appropros for that thread.
Oops, sorry, my mistake.
If you would be so kind as to edit that statement then?
psuliin isn't me. I don't know where you got that idea, but you might want to check join dates.
I'll note your lack of other denials.
edited by me
Which is why I'm behind the megathread initiative. People still get to put up their first impressions without cluttering the forums.
I'm not a professional writer, but I don't want to be ghettoized in the megathreads. I don't even think I deserve it, even if I often write posts critical of 4E (but not exclusively so).
You're not privvy to the entire exchange, but that's in reference to psionx/mortred/lescwhatever invading the forums I own and spewing foul language and inexplicable homophobia and getting banned over it. He's very, very bitter about it.
I see...
If you would be so kind as to edit that statement then?
OK, done, but try to play nice and be more careful about tossing around condescending remarks, thanks!
__________________
I don't want to be ghettoized in the megathreads!
unimportant words
obsess much?
Kinda like making Carrot Top watch episodes of Step By Step.
You must be one helluva DM, 'cause you obviously have a very devious, sadistic mind.
You must be one helluva DM, 'cause you obviously have a very devious, sadistic mind.
I don't think I would call it sadistic, merely a strong sense of .... justice.
edited by me
I simply must have his ear. No literally. Like in diablo...
I didn't play Diablo. Would you say you must have his ear in a Mike Tyson sense?
edited by me
I'm not a professional writer, but I don't want to be ghettoized in the megathreads. I don't even think I deserve it, even if I often write posts critical of 4E (but not exclusively so).
It's not about pro or con, it's about writing pretty much the same thread as there already exists on these boards. If you write a post about your first impressions, it belongs in the first impressions thread.
If you don't like that, you would have hated the 3.5 edition war. The mods just blanket banned edition war threads after about a month; which made the thread derails go on much, much longer.
OK, done, but try to play nice and be more careful about tossing around condescending remarks, thanks!
I'm very careful.
__________________
I don't want to be ghettoized in the megathreads!
Er... you can permanently append your sig to your posts by clicking on My Account on the menu bar at the top of the page, then clicking 'edit my signature'.
:heehee Oh, that's just epic.
Is it against the CoC to call someone a "leshracnuker" instead of a troll? 'Cause if so, I could totally get on board with that.
I think you mean "Psionx sock puppet", right? Yeah, no that doesn't work, no matter how much Psionix was full of it, he at least had a hint of intelligence behind his post, like he actually knew how to troll.
edited by me
It's not about pro or con, it's about writing pretty much the same thread as there already exists on these boards. If you write a post about your first impressions, it belongs in the first impressions thread.
In a similar vein, who needs multiple threads about fighter builds? It's just slight variations on the same class, over and over again. So I'll make a thread called "Your First 4E Fighter". If you write a post about your first 4E fighter, it belongs in the first 4E fighter megathread.
Er... you can permanently append your sig to your posts by clicking on My Account on the menu bar at the top of the page, then clicking 'edit my signature'.
I know, but I decided upon that signature AFTER I already posted. When I edited the post, the new signature didn't automatically pop in. I had to add it in manually. I know that your "Er..." was just on the cusp of a slightly patronizing remark
but that's because you didn't know the whole story. If you can just give everyone an big empathic hug, you'll be like reborn, all humble, shiny, and smelling fresh.In a similar vein, who needs multiple threads about fighter builds? It's just slight variations on the same class, over and over again. So I'll make a thread called "Your First 4E Fighter". If you write a post about your first 4E fighter, it belongs in the first 4E fighter megathread.
Actually it belongs in the subforum for discussing Defenders. Much like the first impression posts belong in the megathread for discussing first impressions.
It's almost as if things that get discussed to the point where they would drown out all other conversation have specific places where they go.
Actually it belongs in the subforum for discussing Defenders. Much like the first impression posts belong in the megathread for discussing first impressions.
Actually, if 4E debates were treated equally, then First Impressions would be a subforum of its own, not a megathread.
"First impressions" covers a very wide spectrum, from rants to constructive criticism, from WoW comparisons to role-playing concerns, from "amateur" opinions to professional reviews -- it includes a much larger range of themes and issues (even if much if it is constantly recycled) than those belonging to the tighter focus of the Defender subforum, so a first impressions megathread IS a lot like a ghetto, cramming all these varied posts into one confusing thread.
Actually, if 4E debates were treated equally, then First Impressions would be a subforum of its own, not a megathread.
"First impressions" covers a very wide spectrum, from rants to constructive criticism, from WoW comparisons to role-playing concerns, from "amateur" opinions to professional reviews -- it includes a much larger range of themes and issues (even if much if it is constantly recycled) than those belonging to the tighter focus of the Defender subforum, so a first impressions megathread IS a lot like a ghetto, cramming all these varied posts into one confusing thread.
None of this, the first impression thread is more like a safe way to keep down a bunch of "HEY LOOK AT ME" threads without being called "EVIL MODZ LOLZ"
None of this, the first impression thread is more like a safe way to keep down a bunch of "HEY LOOK AT ME" threads without being called "EVIL MODZ LOLZ"
I don't know, I could randomly pick *any* thread on this forum, and have just as good a chance of finding a "HEY LOOK AT ME" post or whatnot. Here I'll pick something right now.. how about.... I don't know... OK, post 53 of this thread. Going through my imaginary checklist... is it by a professional writer? No, I don't think so. Does it contribute any new original ideas? No, it's already been stated in many other threads with slightly different wording. So accordingly, post 53 should be relegated to a megathread. But don't worry, this is all totally tongue-in-cheek, I'm wouldn't be so judgemental as to ghettoize your post in a megathread just because I thought it was written by an unprofessional or contains unoriginal content or makes an insignificant contribution to this forum ;)
Please keep on topic and avoid any personal-attacks.
Sad attack is sad.I would urge you to try harder, but I think that was the best you had.
Not an attack, a tongue-in-cheek illustration that megathread reallocation is biased or at least inconsistent. Also, an illustration that some people are viewing the entire megathread with a double standard. Also, I discussed the contents of your post, not your personal character. However, your post I would categorize as trolling, which is ironic considering you're on record as being against trolling.
I don't know, I could randomly pick *any* thread on this forum, and have just as good a chance of finding a "HEY LOOK AT ME" post or whatnot. Here I'll pick something right now.. how about.... I don't know... OK, post 53 of this thread. Going through my imaginary checklist... is it by a professional writer? No, I don't think so. Does it contribute any new original ideas? No, it's already been stated in many other threads with slightly different wording. So accordingly, post 53 should be relegated to a megathread. But don't worry, this is all totally tongue-in-cheek, I'm wouldn't be so judgemental as to ghettoize your post in a megathread just because I thought it was written by an unprofessional or contains unoriginal content or makes an insignificant contribution to this forum ;)
Once again, you've completely missing my point, I was responding to your comment about megathreads, which you choose to bring up. And was point out that megathreads DO NOT contain professional views but rather "Hey! Look at me" Statements. And stating that is in no way a "Hey look at me" statement.
PS Mods, if you want to delete my posts I suggestion you delete the posts that provoke it. Also, see my sig.
It has been stated by a moderator as being unacceptable. I want people to remember this when they think of calling a dissenting voice against 4e a troll post. That is not the way to refute the dissenters of 4e. Quite frankly, I think it's a very rude thing to do.
Well not to put too fine a point on it, but who made you the forum mom?
You can call people anti 4e if you want.
And who empowered you to dictate what terms people may or may not use?
I've retconned my off topic stuff.
Down the memory hole.
Please keep on topic and avoid any personal-attacks.
FYI, when someone who is not a mod says something like this they're probably trolling and/or they're just butthurt because the thread isn't going the way they want it to.
edited by me
Actually, I just did it to be funny.
This thread is soooo going to be locked down tonight.
To squeeze in a possibly final post.. there are Powers That Be that are deciding how to deal with unfair behavior on this forum. I don't envy them, it's a difficult position to be in. They need to be effective but not heavy-handed. They probably prefer to be seen as fair and unbiased. And leading the charge are a number of members who say they are sick and tired of "trolling" and other anti-CoC behavior.
I've said it before and will say again that there are many wonderful cases of irony on this forum, ie., people who don't practice what they preach, don't walk the talk, etc. For example, one member is on record for claiming to be against trolling and yet clearly contradicted him/herself with a 100% trollish post (if I understand correctly that trolling includes baiting/goading specifically to provoke an emotional response) and this post was subsequently deleted by the mods. Now all of us (myself included) have and will be guilty of the occasional act of hypocrisy, but if one is going on a personal crusade to rally the moderators, please PLEASE think carefully of your personal biases and double standards. I have no doubt that this forum will succeed admirably if it's run on the shoulders of people who are fair and genuine.
This thread is soooo going to be locked down tonight.
To squeeze in a possibly final post.. there are Powers That Be that are deciding how to deal with unfair behavior on this forum. I don't envy them, it's a difficult position to be in. They need to be effective but not heavy-handed. They probably prefer to be seen as fair and unbiased. And leading the charge are a number of members who say they are sick and tired of "trolling" and other anti-CoC behavior.
I've said it before and will say again that there are many wonderful cases of irony on this forum, ie., people who don't practice what they preach, don't walk the talk, etc. For example, one member is on record for claiming to be against trolling and yet clearly contradicted him/herself with a 100% trollish post (if I understand correctly that trolling includes baiting/goading specifically to provoke an emotional response) and this post was subsequently deleted by the mods. Now all of us (myself included) have and will be guilty of the occasional act of hypocrisy, but if one is going on a personal crusade to rally the moderators, please PLEASE think carefully of your personal biases and double standards. I have no doubt that this forum will succeed admirably if it's run on the shoulders of people who are fair and genuine.
Well I don't think so, I edited a lot of my posts so it could stay open. (what I thought was humor on the last one was not to you apparently so I edited that one too.)
MODS PLEASE LEAVE THIS THREAD OPEN! IT IS SOOOOO PRODUCTIVE!! IT'S OOZING PRODUCTIVITY!! OOOZIING!!!:D :D :D
- Trolling is against the code of conduct.
- Because some disagrees with you don't make them a troll.
- Calling someone a troll is an insult, even if true, and therefor against the code of conduct.
Anyone who posts that they dislike 4e, gets accused of "Nerdrage." Let's get rid of that.
Likewise, anything referring to anti4e people as frothing, "needs to take their meds", or loony.
If we're gonna have a clean community, let's have it.
If it can be cleaned up and policed for all concerned, (for and against 4e) I'm all for it.
But I'm not seeing that happening, because those getting stepped on by the 4e opposition are seen as "lost business" by WotC, in fact, if not in appearance.
It has been stated by a moderator as being unacceptable. I want people to remember this when they think of calling a dissenting voice against 4e a troll post. That is not the way to refute the dissenters of 4e. Quite frankly, I think it's a very rude thing to do.
You can call people anti 4e if you want.
People can be anti-4e all they want yes, but if they go around in every single post just saying "4e sucks" or "4e is the worst RPG system ever" or words to that effect all the time then they're not contributing to the forums. People who are, as you put it, "anti-4e" continue to post the same comment on the 4e forums, it gets tiresome. And then people express distaste with the posts in question, and the poster instantly assumes they're being called a troll.
The problem here is that anti-4e people insist on hanging around this forum and bringing up the same points over and over again. While it may not be trolling, it is incredibly irritating for the posters who like 4e, and have addressed the points that are being repeatedly brought up.
It is well known who on this forum dislikes 4e. No one is going to come to their house and burn their 3.5 books. They are free to dislike whatever they want. But let's face it, your on the 4th edition forums. If you can't be civil and contribute something more to a topic than "Yeah well 4e is the worst system ever, don't even call it D&D, because it's not" maybe you just shouldn't post at all. I wonder what these people think that kind of post is going to change.
People can be anti-4e all they want yes, but if they go around in every single post just saying "4e sucks" or "4e is the worst RPG system ever" or words to that effect all the time then they're not contributing to the forums. People who are, as you put it, "anti-4e" continue to post the same comment on the 4e forums, it gets tiresome. And then people express distaste with the posts in question, and the poster instantly assumes they're being called a troll.
The problem here is that anti-4e people insist on hanging around this forum and bringing up the same points over and over again. While it may not be trolling, it is incredibly irritating for the posters who like 4e, and have addressed the points that are being repeatedly brought up.
It is well known who on this forum dislikes 4e. No one is going to come to their house and burn their 3.5 books. They are free to dislike whatever they want. But let's face it, your on the 4th edition forums. If you can't be civil and contribute something more to a topic than "Yeah well 4e is the worst system ever, don't even call it D&D, because it's not" maybe you just shouldn't post at all. I wonder what these people think that kind of post is going to change.
Actually, it doesn't matter what they do really, if they do something offensive, you can report it, but do not call it trolling.
Actually, it doesn't matter what they do really, if they do something offensive, you can report it, but do not call it trolling.
For the people that have valid criticism and get overwhelmed by the 4e Avengers who immediately assume the poster is a troll, I can empathize with them. Sometimes people need to back off a little bit and allow dissenting opinions to be heard.
That said, if it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a troll.
He has been repeatedly accused of having a smug and condescending attitude by various people, which I believe to be a very accurate perception.
Having been here a while, and seen him in action, the people who make those statements are typically people he's destroyed with logic first who aren't taking the hint. If anyone here is right in being a bit smug, Vaal is it.
Having been here a while, and seen him in action, the people who make those statements are typically people he's destroyed with logic first who aren't taking the hint. If anyone here is right in being a bit smug, Vaal is it.
I beg to differ. His points rarely come off as logical in my view.
It has been stated by a moderator as being unacceptable. I want people to remember this when they think of calling a dissenting voice against 4e a troll post. That is not the way to refute the dissenters of 4e. Quite frankly, I think it's a very rude thing to do.
You can call people anti 4e if you want.
I should correct you on this. By definition, what has happened is something that a troll does. And what is worse, is the fact the anti-4e aspect is more bigotry than anything else.
But I will note that I have yet posted a complaint against you. I have blocked one other that deserves the title "troll" more than anybody else, and will do it to others. There are times I should have, and and did in the end. But it does not help me appear as somebody who is pro-D&D... because some will assume I did it because they will conclude I am pro-4e.
So as I said before, if you want to be pro- or anti- to any edition, do it in a more neutral manner. Because lately, it has been full of flame bait and trolling. And it is done more by the anti-4e community.
Actually, it doesn't matter what they do really, if they do something offensive, you can report it, but do not call it trolling.
What about when people do report them, and they just make new accounts and continue to post the same comments over and over again? I'm pretty sure that's trolling, or so close to it that it consitutes baiting at least. What do we do then? Also, enjoying your new position on these boards as a moderator?
Until the internet or this site becomes private property... we will continue to have to listen to people badmouth the game we are playing. Now I really don't care what those people think or what their take on the 4th edition of D&D is. My personal feelings on the matter are also not important, but if you come into my home or onto my property and begin to shout out things that are your personal feelings then I have every right to let you know what mine are. I am no longer American enough to go with the "my rights are more important than yours are", regardless of what trouble I am stirring up. Those that disagree with the 4th edition need not come onto the property of those that do and espouse their personal feelings while standing in our front room. They are more than free to proclaim whatever feelings they have anywhere they wish... and so am I. Therefore if you do do not want to here a reply telling it like it is then suck it up. Calling those people "Trolls" was a light thing in my book... in my day and age and where I came from you were likely to get more than that. Bravo for Trolls... a nice way of saying rhymes with... a..Trolls. In my words ... take your feelings outside our door and then you might not feel so bad when you are called a nice name like Troll... you are lucky your not getting your fanny smacked around a bit Chumps.
As funny as this post is, I'll just let you know that every single post I have reported thusfar with the misuse of the word troll has been moderated. The mods therefore believe that this word and rude namecalling (like noob, idiot, etc...) are against the CoC. Make of that what you will, and know that I have no compunctions about reporting such insulting material if I should come across it.
@Ninja, but it was all in good fun. I thought you appreciated my views?
As funny as this post is, I'll just let you know that every single post I have reported thusfar with the misuse of the word troll has been moderated. The mods therefore believe that this word and rude namecalling (like noob, idiot, etc...) are against the CoC. Make of that what you will, and know that I have no compunctions about reporting such insulting material if I should come across it.
@Ninja, but it was all in good fun. I thought you appreciated my views?
Trolling, however, is also against the CoC, so what to do when someone trolls, someone replies "Hey, stop trolling" and the second person gets in trouble. That's just letting the troll win. The mods would do well to revise their unwritten rule of "It's ok to be a troll, your post might be edited a little, but that's as far as it goes".
As for you personally, it's obvious that you have been called a troll on one, if not more than one, occasion. Any reason for this, or do you think the people responcible were just being mean?
Trolling, however, is also against the CoC, so what to do when someone trolls, someone replies "Hey, stop trolling" and the second person gets in trouble. That's just letting the troll win. The mods would do well to revise their unwritten rule of "It's ok to be a troll, your post might be edited a little, but that's as far as it goes".
As for you personally, it's obvious that you have been called a troll on one, if not more than one, occasion. Any reason for this, or do you think the people responcible were just being mean?
Banning works. You are not letting the troll win if you report them. However, if it doesn't get moderated, then it probably isn't trolling, you just think it is.
I've been called a troll more often than any other reference. It's a mark of pride, it means that while my posts are not trolling, they are of such influential power that they cause others to take pause and realize the wrongness of their views, but when they see what they don't like, they just call it trolling instead of accepting it as the fact it is.
Banning works. You are not letting the troll win if you report them. However, if it doesn't get moderated, then it probably isn't trolling, you just think it is.
I've been called a troll more often than any other reference. It's a mark of pride, it means that while my posts are not trolling, they are of such influential power that they cause others to take pause and realize the wrongness of their views, but when they see what they don't like, they just call it trolling instead of accepting it as the fact it is.
It shouldn't be a mark of pride. It should tell you one of 2 things.
1) Your behaviour is not being accepted well by the community. Maybe you should change your approach (such as, for example, giving reasons for why you dislike something rather than just repeating over and over again that it sucks just to get a reaction).
2) If your not going to change your attitude, then you simply aren't welcome on the forums.
And if you've trolled in the past, people are going to take any negitive post you make as a trolling post, even if you didn't mean it like that.
It shouldn't be a mark of pride. It should tell you one of 2 things.
1) Your behaviour is not being accepted well by the community. Maybe you should change your approach (such as, for example, giving reasons for why you dislike something rather than just repeating over and over again that it sucks just to get a reaction).
2) If your not going to change your attitude, then you simply aren't welcome on the forums.
And if you've trolled in the past, people are going to take any negitive post you make as a trolling post, even if you didn't mean it like that.
You're just being mean now. Of course I'm welcome on the forums, I'm still here aren't I?
You're just being mean now. Of course I'm welcome on the forums, I'm still here aren't I?
No I'm being honest. Just because your still here doesn't mean people are happy to see you, or that people actually want you to hang around.
Why? They're just trying to save the other people some money and help them find whether or not they would enjoy 4e. Thats a very noble cause.
But there is freedom of choice, and just because someone doesn't like something, does not mean that someone else might not. That's why they are all opinions, because from a certain point of view, they are correct to the person who holds that opinion.
Banning works. You are not letting the troll win if you report them. However, if it doesn't get moderated, then it probably isn't trolling, you just think it is.
How many accounts have you gone through, again?
You're just being mean now. Of course I'm welcome on the forums, I'm still here aren't I?
If that were the case, how come this account's only been registered for a week?
The fact that they have no viable mechanism for keeping you from re-registering points to incompetence on their part, not acceptance.
How many accounts have you gone through, again?
If that were the case, how come this account's only been registered for a week?
The fact that they have no viable mechanism for keeping you from re-registering points to incompetence on their part, not acceptance.
I have no clue what you guys are talking about. I'm just some random guy who hates 4e and is vocal about it. You guys are just being weird now.
I'm just some random guy who hates 4e and is vocal about it.
Why do you play 4E, then?
Why do you play 4E, then?
I don't, I haven't even seen the books in real life actually. I just hate 4e and have to spread the truth about it.
I don't, I haven't even seen the books in real life actually. I just hate 4e and have to spread the truth about it.
Perhaps you don't realize it, but two or three weeks ago you let it slip, and stated something that revealed, if the reader took time to think about it, that you have played 4E. So once again, if you have actually hated 4E for all these months, why did you play it?
So he is the lesser of two evils in this topic at hand, and wish he'd change avatars before those two are treated as the same person... Or are they?
But, edits aside, I wanted to speak up with some sound advice. Okay, clinkzdps is generally the only real evidence on this.There are going to be three kinds of anti-edition members here.
One kind will dislike the edition, but allow others to enjoy it. One example was a member that stated he was planning to skip editions because he generally disliked 3e. He did not bash 3e, just said it was not for him.
The second kind will badmouth the edition they dislike, but will also allow people to give it a chance to see if they dislike it or not. Some will sound like they will not allow a person to enjoy this edition, but they only do it because they want people to make the right choice... Most commonly the one they made.
And then there is the third kind. These are the kinds that give the second kind a bad name. They will attack any topic they see as one that supports their hated edition. They will attack anybody they think supports it, or even opposes their favorite edition. And they will hide behind the moderators whenever they are called trolls, even though they are. Block them. That is all I can say.
In all cases, D&D does not need any more ignorance and bigotry. It had decades to get rid of it, and just needs a chance to have a time to allow a new generation not to experience it. So until the mods use the actual definition of "troll" and not let members like clinkzdps get away with what he has done in the recent past... I recommend blocking them if they refuse to change or allow others to enjoy the edition you like to play.
Or are they?
I think someone is onto me...
@Shard
I swear upon whatever credibility I have, I have not:
-touched the 4e books
-seen them in real life
-played any game of 4e
-knowingly been near them (as of yet)
My knowledge comes directly from a friend whom I trust and who also hated 4e immediately after reading it.
I guess your misunderstanding of my knowledge means that my knowledge of 4e is accurate :D.
Now, if you are making some strange statement about how playing 3.5 is playing 4e. Thats just weird. It's like comparing D&D and 4e. They're just completely unrelated things.
4e would make a great computer game, but I dread the day that it is unanimously thought as D&D, at least until I die, I know that this will never come to pass.
So until the mods use the actual definition of "troll" and not let members like clinkzdps get away with what he has done in the recent past... I recommend blocking them if they refuse to change or allow others to enjoy the edition you like to play.
They have learned the definition of troll. They have not, however, gotten the hang of IP ban, member verification and host screening.
Until then, they've got a very troll friendly CoC document and a revolving door ban system that's let a few very 'special' (in the 'cannot distinguish good attention from bad attention' sense) people to rack of five or more user names in as many months.
They have learned the definition of troll. They have not, however, gotten the hang of IP ban, member verification and host screening.
Until then, they've got a very troll friendly CoC document and a revolving door ban system that's let a few very 'special' (in the 'cannot distinguish good attention from bad attention' sense) people to rack of five or more user names in as many months.
Point taken. And quite honestly, they are still way better at this than the mods at the Star Wars (not WotC) forums. Because over there, you file a complaint and they will make a conclusion that does not include all the facts. (Then again, they allow anti-WotC trolling there.)
But in all cases, the best action that a moderator here could do is to tell the poster that the poster has been noted and they will investigate it. And until they come up with a conclusion, they ask the poster place that member (in question) on their block list.
I also can give ideas on how to handle the rest, since I did it before at a different forum, but it is a little tricky to do if the IP system is like the one I had to use.