I kind of wanted this to be seperate from the actual discussion of the "No more PDFs thread".
You guys really really need to work at being better about communication. All of a sudden PDFs are no longer available and there's no info from any official source. Once people start talking about it we eventually get WoTC_Trevor commenting that he isn't sure what's going on but he'll get back to us.
If we dig around for press releases we find out that the PDFs are removed because of piracy (which is a whole different issue). There's no explanation on the D&D site, no explanation on drivethrurpg.com, no explanation of why AD&D 2nd edition books are removed, no sticky thread on the forums. All there is is an employee telling us that he'll get back to us once he figures out what's going on.
It is stunning that you guys take a major step like cancelling all online sales without warning your customer base or posting an explanation in a readily accessible place.
I love you guys, but you are stunningly bad at keeping us in the loop.
I agree. My personal feelings notwithstanding, Wotc's attitude comes across like the old AT&T of the 1970s (when it was the phone company monopoly).
Older people here will remember the old Tomlin SNL skit about the phone company operator:
In a nasal accent responding to an irate phone customer
"We're the phone company, we don't care. We don't have to."
Right now that's Wotc to a tee.
-Polaris
I think this month's pen and paper purchase will be some Paranoia books.
Posting to a message board intended for use by fans is not the ideal method of getting in touch with executives, who are not known for frequenting these boards. Even the designers do so sporadically at best.
I realize that people like to complain. Pointing out flaws, fallacies, and seemingly intentional misrepresentations assumes that people want to accomplish something other than complain.
Basically, you have the people making decisions, and then the people who have to come tell us about it who were quite possibly as blindsided by this as we were.
It's almost as if WotC are trying to annoy people...
Cheers
Blakey, the usually easy going and well grounded, but slightly exasperated.
If you want to communicate with people at WotC who actually have the power to change things, you should send a letter to customer service or email tam at the "Contact Us" link below.
Posting to a message board intended for use by fans is not the ideal method of getting in touch with executives, who are not known for frequenting these boards. Even the designers do so sporadically at best.
Actually, I've been sending e-mails to them with Links to just such posts as the OP's, just in case they are too stupid to realize some of their most loyal Customers are also those that frequent these Boards. I still definitely suggest everyone send them an e-mail themselves, but just in case people forget, I don't mind doing it for them. :D
Actually, I've been sending e-mails to them with Links to just such posts as the OP's
Good.
in case they are too stupid
It has nothing to do with them being stupid. It's that most companies don't have somebody whose job it is to monitor message board chatter.
It has nothing to do with them being stupid. It's that most companies don't have somebody whose job it is to monitor message board chatter.
That's true. However, there is a go-between between the VCLs and someone who can contact higher-ups in the Company, IIRC. Hopefully Mudbunny will just toss them a quick notice saying something along the lines of, "Holy ****." ;)
That's true. However, there is a go-between between the VCLs and someone who can contact higher-ups in the Company, IIRC. Hopefully Mudbunny will just toss them a quick notice saying something along the lines of, "Holy ****." ;)
WotC Trevor has already posted in some of those threads. I think they know. If you think mudbunny and webster have channels unavailable to folks with the "WotC" prefix, I think you greatly overestimate the importance of VCLs in the WotC hierarchy.
Man, this is really making me mad.
That's true. However, there is a go-between between the VCLs and someone who can contact higher-ups in the Company, IIRC. Hopefully Mudbunny will just toss them a quick notice saying something along the lines of, "Holy ****." ;)
Trust me, they know.
Trust me, they know.
We definitely do. As the Community Manager for D&D, increasing communicatoin between the community and the rest of the company is one of the highest things on my list.
Hopefully in the future, this can go without saying, but I'm passing all this along to the rest of the company and I'm hopeful that we can increase the level of communication between the community and those in the offices here.
As to this thread, I'm not going to merge it into the main discussion about the PDFs as your main topic is the level of communication. However, I do want to put a gentle reminder out there to keep this discussion on that topic as much as possible.
If you want to join the pdf discussion, please do so here.
No offense, you expect a company that worked on a new edition of their game for 3+ years, while denying its existence until the one year prior to release, is going to tell us why, when and what they are deciding before it's announced?
I'm sorry, but if any of you aren't bright enough to figure out that the company is always working on the next big thing/edition in some way(despite whatever they publicly say).....
Then no, you've failed your basic intelligence check & don't deserve to be kept in the loop.
In reality though? Unless you're directly handing them $, you don't matter to the Powers-that-Be.
I'm sorry, but if any of you aren't bright enough to figure out that the company is always working on the next big thing/edition in some way(despite whatever they publicly say).....
Then no, you've failed your basic intelligence check & don't deserve to be kept in the loop.
In reality though? Unless you're directly handing them $, you don't matter to the Powers-that-Be.
Not disputing that they will be working on the next big thing. My comments were about their history for denying the news when people find out.
Posting to a message board intended for use by fans is not the ideal method of getting in touch with executives, who are not known for frequenting these boards. Even the designers do so sporadically at best.
I find this to be horrible. Devs and managment should be required to visit these boards at least three times a week. Otherwise how in the world do they know what is going on?
My comments were about their history for denying the news when people find out.
You expect them to say:[INDENT]"Yeah, you caught us. We are preparing the product that won't be ready for sale until a year form now, but we hope you'll still continue to buy our new products for the soon-to-be discontinued product in the meantime."[/INDENT]
That would be like expecting people to go out and buy a Chrysler today, knowing the company is on the edge of gone.
They handled 4e communication the right way. Silence until the product launch date arrived. Then say everything.
Even so, I'd hope you'd agree that Wotc has not handled it's public relations very well on this or some other issues. Enough said.
-Polaris
Otherwise how in the world do they know what is going on?
Perhaps using the information they have access to from the market research firm they pay to acquire such information for them?
The Boards are a horrible representation of the customer base. I am the only one in my past three groups (18 people total) that visit these Boards. When I ask them about some of the hot topics that we like to discuss ad nauseum here, they don't care. When I share the controversy of some of the products, they don't see it as a big deal.
And when I shared with the current group (six of us) the news about WotC and the PDFs, they all responded with some variation of "so?" Most of the player base doesn't care. Doesn't feel slighted and doesn't feel affected.
Even on the Boards, the participants in any given thread are a small population. I suspect the participants who voice an opinion on any given subject are the *majority* of folks who have an opinion, and do not represent much of any larger, silent portion of the Boards population, much less the larger population of D&D players.
In the larger market, we really do matter much less than we might like to think.
Even so, I'd hope you'd agree that Wotc has not handled it's public relations very well on this or some other issues. Enough said.
As the above post indicates, I do not agree.
WotC has handled its *public* relations well enough. Most are unaware of this decision. And few care. We have made a mountain out of a molehill. WotC is not likely to suffer much for it, even if those claiming to be outraged actually followed through on their idle threats of boycott.
*whistles past the graveyard.....*
-Polaris
I'm not upset myself, I am just baffled by what little they have said.
I really don't see how it will stop piracy... but whatever, it doesn't really effect me, being a deadtree person mostly myself.
Touchfuzzy, this comment belongs in the forum thread dedicated to the discussion about this particular issue, which you can find here.
Just trying to keep everyone in the same conversation. If you could repost your message there and delete this, I would very much appreciate it.
I find this to be horrible. Devs and managment should be required to visit these boards at least three times a week. Otherwise how in the world do they know what is going on?
I said something like this above, but I'll add to it. While many people here in the office do read these forums and other community gathering sites, we have a team of people (the Community Team) with the job of making sure information is flowing between our gaming community and the rest of the company. Your opinions are definitely being heard and I'm doing everything in my power to increase the level of communication between us.
They handled 4e communication the right way. Silence until the product launch date arrived. Then say everything.
Well, if that's the way they want to do business, they shouldn't be surprised if someone who went out shortly before they announced 4e and spent money on a bunch of 3.5e product feels somewhat let down by the timing of their 'announcement.'
My 3e books were barely broken in before I found out that 3,5e was here. If WOTC / Hasbro just keeps treating me like a source of money, and the cost of the hobby outweighs the pleasure (as is the situation I find myself in now), they have lost me as a customer.
As the above post indicates, I do not agree.
WotC has handled its *public* relations well enough. Most are unaware of this decision. And few care. We have made a mountain out of a molehill. WotC is not likely to suffer much for it, even if those claiming to be outraged actually followed through on their idle threats of boycott.
That's an imbecilic way to run a business, Seeker. The people here might be a minority, they might not, neither of us knows. Most likely, they are; however, they are a paying minority, and are practically guaranteed sells for newer WotC material, as they obviously love the material enough to spend their free time not only playing it, but also discussing it with random strangers on these Boards. To alienate them is to lose money for absolutely no reason. A simply announcement on the Boards or on the www.wizards.com main site would have defused the situation almost completely for the majority of those who feel slighted.
Instead, they ignored at least part of their Consumer Base, and now they have lost some of it. That's just bad business, period.
however, they are a paying minority, and are practically guaranteed sells for newer WotC material
I suspect the vast majority of this "paying minority" will remain a paying minority long after this blows over. People on these Boards threaten to quit any time they perceive their panties getting in a bunch. They return. And those promising never to buy another WotC book again? They're back within a month, talking about the newest release anyway.
A simply announcement on the Boards or on the www.wizards.com main site would have defused the situation almost completely for the majority of those who feel slighted.
Not in the least. Even after multiple posts with the press release have been shared in the multiple threads, people are still whining about the inhumanity of it all. People don't want advanced notice. They don't need information ('cause enough of them are ignoring it anyway. People want to complain. And very few of them have the balls to follow through on their threats of boycott. At worst, a bunch of them will go looking for illegal sites to download the PDFs (by this, I mean the ones not already doing that) and gain some smug satisfaction in feeling like they are sticking it to the man. And later this month, they'll still buy Arcane Power, 'cause the book just feels better than the PDFs on a screen.
People are sheep. This week, the sheep are protesting the shutting down of a product offering very few of them ever paid for in the first place. Last week it was weapon and implement expertise. Next week, the sheep will protest a paragon path in Arcane Power that they haven't actually played, but they're certain must be broken.
And in a month, the number of people who will have "left the game" over this PDF flap will be fewer than the number who join this week alone. The rest of the boycott threats will be participating in full on these forums looking for the next thing to feign indignity over.
Your opinions are definitely being heard and I'm doing everything in my power to increase the level of communication between us.
I've been playing WoW since the beta release. Ever since the game's first release, Blizzard Entertainment have been utterly WOEFUL with their communication skills. They have Community Managers who's job it is to filter information from the users posting on the forums to the developers and designers, but it VERY RARELY works the other way; usually when a Community Manager posts it's what most would consider trolling or so vague as to not be worth posting; worst is when they bring out the dreaded "Soon(tm)". When a developer posts (which is rare) it's more likley than not in a manner that incites rage. It's INCREDIBLY frustrating. It's one of the bigger reasons I stopped playing WoW.
Please, don't head down that path. Ideally there should be a sort of conversation between 'us' and 'them,' I guess with you and your team as the mediators or something. The D&D podcast with Q&A sessions can be a useful tool for getting information out there in regards to a lot of issues (they could use a nice little home for forum discussion).
So, what I'm really getting at is that while this situation with the PDFs is disturbing and actually quite alarming, I really appreciate that steps are being taken to improve the user-developer conversation.
Not in the least. Even after multiple posts with the press release have been shared in the multiple threads, people are still whining about the inhumanity of it all. People don't want advanced notice. They don't need information ('cause enough of them are ignoring it anyway. People want to complain. And very few of them have the balls to follow through on their threats of boycott. At worst, a bunch of them will go looking for illegal sites to download the PDFs (by this, I mean the ones not already doing that) and gain some smug satisfaction in feeling like they are sticking it to the man. And later this month, they'll still buy Arcane Power, 'cause the book just feels better than the PDFs on a screen.
People are sheep. This week, the sheep are protesting the shutting down of a product offering very few of them ever paid for in the first place. Last week it was weapon and implement expertise. Next week, the sheep will protest a paragon path in Arcane Power that they haven't actually played, but they're certain must be broken.
And in a month, the number of people who will have "left the game" over this PDF flap will be fewer than the number who join this week alone. The rest of the boycott threats will be participating in full on these forums looking for the next thing to feign indignity over.
Of course people like to complain, and they may have even if there were notice, but if they did, others would just tell them they were wrong, that there was advance notice, and that it was their own fault. There certainly wouldn't be multiple 1,000-post Threads gathering all around the 'Net about it, where 99% of all the people posting in these Threads agree with each other.
Your opinion is just as good as mine, or anyone else's. It's arrogant, insulting, and demeaning that you think you can talk down to everyone who you "know" so much about, when no, you do not. I've worked in many different industries where Customer Relations are found, time and again, to be the one thing that will consistently keep the Customer coming back for more. There are games other than DnD. This may be the Last Straw for many people. The economy, the release of 4E without any warning, and the multiple debacles that have been DDI have all been eroding any faith in WotC many Customers might have.
Your attitude is one that will never improve the current industry, and is an example of how CEOs should not think of Consumers.
The DDI VCLs are trying something by making these things public. I haven't because I don't want people to feel like I'm leaving them out. (I.E. Not EVERY thread gets sent up.) So, if there's three or four threads discussing the latest class, I'll link to just one and say "This is one of three of four threads on this topic."
So let me ask here, would there be interest in having me re-post them here? What would be the benefit? What would be some drawbacks?
I said something like this above, but I'll add to it. While many people here in the office do read these forums and other community gathering sites, we have a team of people (the Community Team) with the job of making sure information is flowing between our gaming community and the rest of the company. Your opinions are definitely being heard and I'm doing everything in my power to increase the level of communication between us.
I see your problem and feel for you. If Senior management is unwilling to respond to the questions,concerns and criticisms of active members of this community (the core of there costumer bass) in a timely manner, then whats the point. Apparently no one has thought that it might be a good idea to get a head of the story,as they say in politics. All this dose is add fuel to the fire for thous who feel disgruntled by the actions of the Company that owns the game that they love. The best that WotC seems to be able to do is
tell us that there listening and passing it along to the powers that be, while hoping that we in the community will forget the lack of communication and the controversy itself. Lots of us remember the days of T$R with disdain and hoped never to see that sort of disconnect between Gamers and D&D again.
So let me ask here, would there be interest in having me re-post them here? What would be the benefit? What would be some drawbacks?
If it would make it easier for some who might care* to be kept abreast of what, at the very least, our little corner of the DnD Customer Base is discussing heavily, I don't really see many downsides.
*As most of them probably don't have the time nor inclination (understandably!) to dig through the massive library of Threads that is the Forums.
;)
Would enough people care, though?
;)
As not trying is guaranteed failure, while being optimistic might succeed, I believe we can only do our best and give it a go. :D
By not informing us (the people that make all this possible with our money) in a timely manner why this is taking place, or even that it would take place, WoTC comes off as disrespectful towards us (the people that make all this possible with our money). I for one see this as yet another sign that WoTC either doesn’t care about my wants and needs as a fan (one of the people that make all this possible with my money), or that they are extremely incompetent in assessing my wants and needs as a fan. Frankly neither possibility encourages me to continue making all this possible with my money.
In all honesty, this coupled with the overall handling of 4e’s marketing, and several other ‘mishandlings’ in the company’s past has pretty well made up my mind to try something else for awhile. I know there are those who say ‘you’ll be back in a month’, but I’ve been here for years (since 3e launched and pulled me back into DnD) and the dissatisfaction has been slowly and steadily building since then. I’ve finally had enough.
As to White Wolf’s and Paizo’s responses to all this, how could you possibly blame them for taking advantage of the situation. It reminds me of the hotels.com commercial where the guy comments that there are two shampoos in the bathroom and his wife says, “They’re just trying to get a good review from you because you booked through hotels.com”. Know what the man’s response is?
“It’s working! It’s working!”
Time to go check out my free Exalted PDF. (Then maybe pick up a Savage Worlds hardcopy for only $10.)
Peace
As not trying is guaranteed failure, while being optimistic might succeed, I believe we can only do our best and give it a go. :D
Webster's already sending the threads. What he's talking about is whether he should disclose his list publicly.
I usually don't discuss it, but i do send up links to the community team as to what people are talking about.
The DDI VCLs are trying something by making these things public. I haven't because I don't want people to feel like I'm leaving them out. (I.E. Not EVERY thread gets sent up.) So, if there's three or four threads discussing the latest class, I'll link to just one and say "This is one of three of four threads on this topic."
So let me ask here, would there be interest in having me re-post them here? What would be the benefit? What would be some drawbacks?
The regulars in the DDI forums are a small enough group that I think that it is worthwhile. Not to mention the fact that, due to their interest in DDI, all of them are both interested in 4E, and interested in the upcoming tools. Thus, the stuff that I report in my reports to CM tend to be focused on those specific areas. There is also, aside from one or two points, pretty much universal agreement on things that need to be passed up.
The D&D forums for which you are responsible are, however, a completely different animal. I am not sure, in your case, that it wouldn't result in more trouble than it is worth. Look at the regular complaints that pro/anti 4E posters are getting moderated harder.
The regulars in the DDI forums are a small enough group that I think that it is worthwhile. Not to mention the fact that, due to their interest in DDI, all of them are both interested in 4E, and interested in the upcoming tools. Thus, the stuff that I report in my reports to CM tend to be focused on those specific areas. There is also, aside from one or two points, pretty much universal agreement on things that need to be passed up.
And whilst those of us who regularly frequent the DDi boards are grateful to read what you are reporting to the WotC staff, it should also be noted that, to date, this has been completely one way traffic.
You might be getting a response from them about the points you're raising but us laymen who are the ones pleading for more information about what is going on (with DDi in this case) are still left woefully in the dark.
Seeing as this is a thread all about Communication, could someone (Trevor??) please let us know WHY no one in WotC will tell us what is going on?
Cheers!!
Blakey
We definitely do. As the Community Manager for D&D, increasing communicatoin between the community and the rest of the company is one of the highest things on my list.
Good luck with that.
Wasn't Community Manager Gamer Zero's job? Before he got fired and then someone (who was in the position so briefly I never learnt her name) took it over and was actually making progress, before similarly getting fired.
I simply hope you don't also get fired if you actually start achieving your goal of more communication between the fans and WotC. It seems anyone who does manage to open up communication between WotC and fans doesn't last too long (Randy Buehler is another example, whose weekly D&Di news posts haven't been the same since he left).
They handled 4e communication the right way. Silence until the product launch date arrived. Then say everything.
Except they didn't have silence. They outright lied (according to MattDroz).
One promise that have yet to keep was this:
4th Edition Compatible
Though designed for version 3.5 of the Dungeons and Dragons game, you can get free online updates of this book to 4th Edition after those rules are released. Check out dndinsider.com for details!")
Given they've yet to fulfill this promise, I'm inclined to believe MattDroz.
As someone said in another Thread, "If your solution is to always shoot the mailman, you just end up getting less mail."
I mean really how tough would it have been to sticky a post up on top of the forums explaining the situation, and what you are trying to do to try and resolve it. So far the only 'official' word from Wizards is from WoTCTrevor and is buried in the middle of a 30+ page thread. Keep the thread locked to the general public but copy posts from offical sources into it as a sort of FAQ.
I get that piracy is a problem. I get that Wizards needs to try and do something about it. What I don't get is the fact that Wizards doesn't feel the need to tell people what they are doing.
Would the forum still be full of gnashing of teeth and rending of garments? Yeah, of course, this is the internet, feigned indignation is practically a requirement. It would however at least give everyone *something* to point at and say "this is why".
Except they didn't have silence. They outright lied (according to MattDroz).
Prove it.
Lots of people have claimed they were told in a private conversation that there are no plans for 4e. Corporate communication is official. Find an official statement where WotC states that there are no plans for 4e.
While you're at it, show my the idiots who really thought WotC would NOT be working on a 4th edition? I got bridges to sell all over the western states.
Given they've yet to fulfill this promise, I'm inclined to believe MattDroz.
That you consider that a promise is your problem. That MattDroz is the name you choose to drop as if it lends some weight to your concerns is merely a quirk, not a problem.
*
As for back-and-forth communicating... Webster, I don't know if any good will come from you telling the community what threads you've passed up the chain. However, there might be some benefit to sharing what topics you've passed along. So for example, instead of telling us you shared a particular thread about problems/concerns with the Invoker class, just tell us that you brought the issue up in your most recent meeting.
Of course, communication is a two-way thing. It would be nice if WotC passed information back down to the VCLs to pass along to the community. It's nice to know our issues are being passed up the chain, but it would be even nicer to know that our issues were heard and given some consideration. Whether that return communication comes in the forum of Webster or Trevor posting a note or (even better) a developer popping into the forums for one hour a week to have a discussion doesn't matter too much. The point is that the communication needs to go both directions.
I've said this for many, many years now. I would absolutely love to get a designer/developer to come to the forums for an hour or so a week and chat. I'd be all in favor of it being heavily moderated to keep the insults and flames at bay. We no longer have chat rooms available, so a thread would be the next best resource. I think such a talk would provide a lot of value, both to the company and the community.
Prove it.
Lots of people have claimed they were told in a private conversation that there are no plans for 4e. Corporate communication is official. Find an official statement where WotC states that there are no plans for 4e.
While you're at it, show my the idiots who really thought WotC would NOT be working on a 4th edition? I got bridges to sell all over the western states.
I don't recall WotC ever saying 4e wasn't in the works. What I recall them saying is that they would give at least a year's notice before any release*. Given the way the book trade works, that makes sense of course. Amazon, among other places, often has books listed a year or so in advance.
Now, the official announcement of 4e came 10 months before the product's release. (Zammmmmmmmmmmmmm has the timeframe correct -- it was officially announced at GenCon '07 (August) and released in June '08.) So yeah, if you want to kill them because they didn't actually hold up to the one year claim, I guess people can go ahead and do that.
* My search-fu is weak like a ninja. However, I very strongly remember Chris Perkins coming onto the forums and telling us we'd get a year's notice. I'm old, so my memory is certainly suspect. But that's what I recall.
I am a D&Di subscriber. Up until just this month, I had been subscribing on a monthly basis. The process was: I'd subscribe, immediately email CS to cancel auto-renewal on my account, then get a response email stating when my account would expire (in a month).
Trouble was, there was a grace period; the account wasn't shut off automatically. The most recent time, my account was a full 10 days overdue before it finally expired. Maybe I'm odd for worrying about getting 'free' stuff but I did what I felt was the responsible thing. So, 4 or 5 days in, I PMed mudbunny.
Mudbunny responded that he would have to pass it up to the PTB. Okay, that should take care of it. Nope. 2 days later, I still have full access. It wasn't until I started a thread as an attention grabber before a WotC showed up to tell me that they were aware of the 'undead accounts' problem.
Why wasn't somebody like mudbunny let in on this? And why wasn't it brought to the community's attention? It created a lot of confusion and frustration for me (if no one else ;)), that could have been avoided by simple communication.
Same thing is happening with the halt on PDF sales I think. Lack of communication can make things worse.
It is now Wednesday.
Steve Wieck from DriveThroughRPG has made a mention, on a WotC forum nontheless, of what happened, from his point of view.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18284879&postcount=1164
We still dont have any sort of official communication from WotC about what happened. Since they are the ones who made the whole mess possible, i call that *very* bad communication.
Its not just the fact that they hadnt mentioned it anywhere, or that they hadnt given a advanced warning or anything.
It is the fact that 48 hours after the incident we still have no official pronouncement of what happened. Hell for all that is official, we dont even know it happened.
A post on the forums, a small note on the site, anything is better than the current WotC posture.
Thanks for linking to Steve's post, Wyrmnax. That thread is proving very difficult to keep up with.
[/sidenote]
We still dont have any sort of official communication from WotC about what happened.
WotC is involved in a lawsuit. I suspect they *can't* tell us what happened, if it is in any way related to that suit.
While you're at it, show my the idiots who really thought WotC would NOT be working on a 4th edition? I got bridges to sell all over the western states.
Maybe we can bundle those bridges with my Arizona beachfront property I've been wanting to offload?:P
Seriously, though, Seeker's right that if the communication has to do with the current lawsuit they aren't going to talk about it, even if they're able to (which I doubt.) While their communication is pretty bad, this is one case where I can kind of understand it.
WotC is involved in a lawsuit. I suspect they *can't* tell us what happened, if it is in any way related to that suit.
"We are unable to speak of this issue due to a current lawsuit. Please be patient"
Would that kill them? >.>
"We are unable to speak of this issue due to a current lawsuit. Please be patient"
Would that kill them? >.>
Apparently so.
-Polaris
I definitely believe WotC could do a better job communicating with the community. Solice was very good at her job, and it was a pity she was blown out in the last purge. Trevor doesn't seem to be as active out in front as G0 or Solice, but in my limited dealings with him regarding some Gamemaster stuff, he seems to genuinely be interested in hearing ideas and working to improve things. In fact, Trevor has done more, behind the scenes mostly, for the Gamemaster group than anybody since it was taken out of the WizOs' hands.
*
As for back-and-forth communicating... Webster, I don't know if any good will come from you telling the community what threads you've passed up the chain. However, there might be some benefit to sharing what topics you've passed along. So for example, instead of telling us you shared a particular thread about problems/concerns with the Invoker class, just tell us that you brought the issue up in your most recent meeting.
Of course, communication is a two-way thing. It would be nice if WotC passed information back down to the VCLs to pass along to the community. It's nice to know our issues are being passed up the chain, but it would be even nicer to know that our issues were heard and given some consideration. Whether that return communication comes in the forum of Webster or Trevor posting a note or (even better) a developer popping into the forums for one hour a week to have a discussion doesn't matter too much. The point is that the communication needs to go both directions.
[size=1]I've said this for many, many years now. I would absolutely love to get a designer/developer to come to the forums for an hour or so a week and chat. I'd be all in favor of it being heavily moderated to keep the insults and flames at bay. We no longer have chat rooms available, so a thread would be the next best resource. I think such a talk would provide a lot of value, both to the company and the community.[/size]
I for one would really like to know what is pushed up the ladder so-to-speak. I agree with this completely. I think a sort of forum-said-we-said-they-said type of thread would be very interesting. Something like "we" told "them" about this issue/concern and "they" said "something" - I guess you get the idea. You could make it a sticky or a weekly update sort of like the D&Di Announcements. Something so we know that someone in the company is really listening. Not saying they are not but we don't really know for sure, I think. I also want to thank all in this thread for their input.
Your opinions are definitely being heard and I'm doing everything in my power to increase the level of communication between us.
So as part of that communication, perhaps you could go through what led up to this and why it occurred?
So far there isn't much out there, and by now that's beyond the 'oops' it could have been a day or two ago. Furthermore given the company track record it just reinforces bad feelings, and as this business is more word of mouth than others that is very very bad.
Towards both you and the other official here.. I would suggest as much transparency as is possible. You will need to engender trust, which so far your company has taught us not to have in them.
-James
Prove it.
Why the heck are you saying this to me instead of the previous poster?
That you consider that a promise is your problem.
I find it simply astounding you don't. How many people would have not bought that book if not for that WotC's promise? Quite a few I imagine. WotC obviously thought so as well, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered putting it on the cover.
That MattDroz is the name you choose to drop as if it lends some weight to your concerns is merely a quirk, not a problem.
He was the poster you were talking to.
Why the heck are you saying this to me instead of the previous poster?
I quoted your post. I replied to your comments.
I find it simply astounding you don't.
That I don't consider a verbal comment about giving us a year's notice to be a company promise? I work in software production. I don't care when a salesperson tells a potential client how long it will take us to complete their customization of our product. I wish they wouldn't set up expectations verbally that end up differing from the contract, but the *contract* is the promise.
A verbal statement from Scott Rouse or Chris Perkins or even Bill Slavicek is NOT a company promise.
How many people would have not bought that book if not for that WotC's promise?
I'm not sure what book you mean.
Quite a few I imagine. WotC obviously thought so as well, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered putting it on the cover.
Put what on the cover? And what does a picture on the cover of a book have to do with the verbal statement that we would get a year advance notice before the release of 4e (which turned out to be only ten months).
He was the poster you were talking to.
See the top of this post for an explanation. I did not replace his name with yours. I quoted your post. I really was talking to you.
I for one would have loved to have seen the timeline fluff of Eberron advance a couple of years to see what NEW stuff the designers come out with. There was a huge outcry and now we won't be getting any "new" Eberron fluff, but what I fear would be a re-hashing of the same material I already have.
Back in the day, Mel would announce something would be up on Monday and what happened? People would be at their computers on Sunday waiting for 12:00 AM and immediately post when what was "promised" wasn't up at that exact moment.
People are still upset there is no game table. WotC HAS communicated that it evaluating the situation and if there's more info, they will give it. There is no more info. But people are still latching on to the announcement that the game table will be out the day 4e is released.
How many WotC staff have been chased away with a constant barage of negativity? And people expect two way communication? WotC keeps trying, but some folks refuse to see it.
"We are unable to speak of this issue due to a current lawsuit. Please be patient" would STILL be met with open hostility.
Someone on the PDF thread claimed WotC has said nothing. Mudbunny responded with a quote from Trevor. And immediatley got jumped on as it if were all Mudbunny's decision. Mudbunny had NOTHING to do with it, wasn't arguing it, or trying to be involved with the conversation. Just pass along info.
If that's how a volunteer is treated, can you imagine how a WotC employee would be treated?
If and when they have something to report, they will. They don't need to say "no comment" because not giving a comment is the same as "no comment", except you don't put yourself in the starving lion's cage.
;)
That I don't consider a verbal comment about giving us a year's notice to be a company promise?
Sorry, I thought you were saying a statement in a book saying that they would update it to the new edition wasn't in fact a promise they would do this.
Put what on the cover? And what does a picture on the cover of a book have to do with the verbal statement that we would get a year advance notice before the release of 4e (which turned out to be only ten months).
Neither MattDroz nor I am talking about the promise of having 1 year's notification.
This is how the discussion has gone:
* MattDroz - WotC denied the existence of 4th edition while they were working on it.
* Seeker - WotC kept their silence.
* Me - According to MattDroz they didn't keep their silence. They denied 4th ed's existence.
* Seeker - Prove it John.
I have no intention of proving it. Because I wasn't the one that made the initial claim. I simply believe MattDroz, based on WotC's behaviour I have witnessed.
WotC is involved in a lawsuit. I suspect they *can't* tell us what happened, if it is in any way related to that suit.
This has nothing to do with any lawsuit it has everything to do with a corporate policy of silence and secrecy. This is the upshot of the rise of CA's, Lawyers and MB-A's lock on the corporate hierarchy in what is at it's core a creative endeavour.
People take announcements as if they are either set in stone
You have to admit DDi did appear to be a promise set in stone. They didn't say "we hope to have this done." They said "This will be done."
WotC HAS communicated that it evaluating the situation and if there's more info, they will give it. There is no more info. But people are still latching on to the announcement that the game table will be out the day 4e is released.
I think that's a misrepresentation of what many people are saying. Many are saying how long does it take to evaluate the situation? Because by your definition, WotC could "evaluate" the situation all the way to the release of 5th edition without ever having to actually own up and say "we aren't working going to actually create the gamtable or any of the other products we said we would."
The last communication we got was:
We're going to evaluate the situation regarding DDi. But for us to be able to evaluate it, we need your help. We're going to be increasing communication with you.
That message was in the news post saying they'd be decreasing the regularity of that column. Which pretty much sends a mixed signal. Have we actually had them post any polls concerning DDi? Its possible we have and I've missed it. If we haven't, explaining why there's a delay in the oh-so-needed polls (at least, needed according to WotC) would actually help explain why the evaluating is taking so dang long.
Also whilever they're evaluating, they're not working on any of the future tools (AFAIK) and if they're taking this long to evaluate, how long will they take to develop the tools. And I can only say AFAIK because WotC hasn't said otherwise. However due to how silent WotC is, I have no way of knowing if they are working on the tools while "evaluating" and just failed to tell us.
Personally I think it could be they want to iron out the bugs and features in the Character Builder before they start any of the other tools. But that's just a guess for me, again because of WotC's lack of communication.
They don't need to say "no comment" because not giving a comment is the same as "no comment", except you don't put yourself in the starving lion's cage.
Also you don't communicate with your customers that you want to tell them, but are deciding not to on advice of counsel. We have no way of knowing if they can communicate but are choosing not to because they simply don't give a damn* or because it would hurt their current legal proceedings.
* Many defending WotC's silence are saying they don't talk to us because those interested in PDFs are unimportant to WotC.
If a Designer or Lead or some such actually takes time out of their busy day to come down and personally speak with the very small amount of their Customer Base that frequents these Boards, respect should be the first thing on everyone's mind.
Sadly this action goes hand in hand with what's happening with the DDi applications, and nothing has been forthcoming about what is going on there for weeks and weeks.
To be more accurate, nothing has been forthcoming about the DDi applications for over a year-and-a-half.
I guess that cutting off all .pdfs and online sales must be part of WotC's "Far More Robust Online Presence" -plan... ...somehow.
This goes all the way back to Chris Perkins stating at GenCon 07 that, in designing 4th Ed. they knew that "it was about time D&D took advantage of TECHNOLOGY!" (dramatic inflection his, not mine.)
I guess this was... er... what they meant by "taking advantage" of it?
Or no, maybe it was never actually releasing their online tools, nor ever speaking of them again... maybe that's how D&D is "taking advantage of TECHNOLOGY!" (again, his inflection, not mine.)
By this time next month, I'll bet they take the website down and change the name of the game to Dungons & Dragons... cause we can't have the letter "e" in there... that stands for "electronic" sometimes.
--
"Yes, I Love D&D. Yes, I hate WotC. You don't need to point out that I'm always caustic when speaking about them. I know. It's intentional. You'll make me worse."
-ZS
I guess this was... er... what they meant by "taking advantage" of it?
According to WotC_Trevor (who I don't believe is lying but simply communicating what he was told), WotC only just learnt that PDFs from sites like RPGNow were being put onto torrent websites.
I have a lot to say about that (starting with I can't believe how ignorant WotC is saying they were, so much so that I think it has to be a lie), but that's not what this thread is about.
It's been my observation that when WotC does communicate something, it often comes back to bite them. People take announcements as if they are either set in stone, or up for debate.
This entire post speaks volumes for how far removed from a good costumer relationship WotC has with us.
Silence is worse. Period.
Honest communication is much better than spin, or empty promises.
You're dealing with your early adopters or superusers, and you think of them with scorn. That's a recipe for disaster.
It's not rocket science. Gamers will always complain, it's part of the nature of the beast. But if you let that stop you from dealing with them, well then why are you in a business that sells to them?
Most gamers, even when they complain, will admit (if only to themselves) something is fair if it indeed is. They may grouse or complain, but they move on. But in this case, WotC is simply showing no respect to their customers, and they deserve whatever they loose by the way they have decided to mishandle this.
WotC by now has a very bad track record with its communication. Its taught its customers not to trust what it puts out and should not expect that lesson to be forgotten overnight. Either the company is going to work to fix that or frankly its going to fade away. It will take awhile as driving a gamer away normally has to be a conscious effort, but it will happen. And frankly some of the moves on WotC's part do look like its a conscious effort to alienate.
-James
This entire post speaks volumes for how far removed from a good costumer relationship WotC has with us.
Silence is worse. Period.
Honest communication is much better than spin, or empty promises.
You're dealing with your early adopters or superusers, and you think of them with scorn. That's a recipe for disaster.
They're NOT far removed, I meerly posted my observations and what gets pulled from it? That I think of them with scorn. That is my point. People are automatically going to think the worst. Even when there's nothing there.
Nothing is further from the truth.
I'm just pointing out that people are still quoting what Trevor said as if it were the Official News Release, which it wasn't, and if you read the post it looks like they're trying to pick a fight with him as if it was his decision.
Somehow even quoting Trevor's text draws fire and puts a target on the person who is only reposting the information.
It's not rocket science. Gamers will always complain, it's part of the nature of the beast. But if you let that stop you from dealing with them, well then why are you in a business that sells to them?
It's also a good idea to not be a target while things are heated. It's like running into a burning building carrying a gas tank to rescue someone. No comment is better than stepping in front of the pitchforks and torches. Keep in mind this just happened. And instantly people wanted people executed.
You'll notice I haven't commented on the thread. I'm not going to make myself a target while everyone is upset.
Most gamers, even when they complain, will admit (if only to themselves) something is fair if it indeed is. They may grouse or complain, but they move on. But in this case, WotC is simply showing no respect to their customers, and they deserve whatever they loose by the way they have decided to mishandle this.
It's also been my experience that not all of them move on. Ever. :D
WotC by now has a very bad track record with its communication. Its taught its customers not to trust what it puts out and should not expect that lesson to be forgotten overnight.
The issue is that there's no communication released. So, which is better, information when it becomes available, or information customers don't trust? ;)
Right now, there is no information to pass on. At some point there may be. There may not be. But there's no need to get worked up in the meantime.
Either the company is going to work to fix that or frankly its going to fade away. It will take awhile as driving a gamer away normally has to be a conscious effort, but it will happen. And frankly some of the moves on WotC's part do look like its a conscious effort to alienate.
-James
I'm sorry you feel that way. That certainly isn't the goal of WotC.
But i have to say, I really love D&D and the 4th Edition is by far no exception! But Wizards is really alienating me for quite some time, it's really hard on me to still buy the things i want from them...
Didn't help that they stopped "Feder & Schwert" producing german D&D4 translations. (Ok i heard they were horrible, but my players are below driver license age, so they don't speak english nearly as good as i do)
Now my players are without thier materials I have to tell my friends that Wizards is not able to provide simple means to buy the things they and especialy I want.
What do I have todo?
I own almost all books of DD4 but i can't even subscribe to DDI because I don't own a credit card.
Wizards is really accumulating things here, please Wizards, turn that ship around, your driving into shallow waters!
If others out there are anything like me, they're literally addicted to collecting D&D (not to even mention playing the actual game). They're gonna break down and buy (eventually), whether they admit it or not. Or maybe that's just me ;) . . .
Something must always be said. Imo, it is human nature to assume and fill in the blanks, when there is an unknown. People will begin to speculate, and the more this continues the speculation becomes broader. Perhaps not resembling the original issue, or taking it in a direction it should not have gone.
I have seen it said that those (in the forum) that take issue with the lack of communication may be in the minority. That may be true.
There is one thing that is true. Each of them sits at a table with at least 5 other people. Some may care and others may not. Even if two of them care. That is 33.3% of that group that cares. Add in the original speaker and you now have 50% of the table that cares. Now extend that to the entire customer base.
Sure this is a VERY simple way of looking at it. Yet, I hear some thing like it during almost every sales training session that I have taken. Every interaction with a potential, or current customer should be as positive as possible.
Keep in mind that I have not mentioned what side the speaker took, pro vs con. In the long run it will average out. Even at 33%, most companies would consider this a disconcerting number if the speaker was on the side speaking out against their lack of communication.
So, please! I would love to hear something however small, but official. If only to create a light at the end of the tunnel.
Cheers!!
I'm just pointing out that people are still quoting what Trevor said as if it were the Official News Release, which it wasn't
Its the only thing we've been given. If WotC wants us to believe something else, they're going to have to tell us something else. Because all we've gotten is:
1) Trevor's statement.
2) WotC is suing 8 copyright infringers.
It's also a good idea to not be a target while things are heated. It's like running into a burning building carrying a gas tank to rescue someone. No comment is better than stepping in front of the pitchforks and torches. Keep in mind this just happened. And instantly people wanted people executed.
This came as a surprise to 2 groups:
1) Those selling WotC's products.
2) Those buying WotC's products.
WotC could have waited until they had a press release ready addressing the question of why the PDFs were pulled. WotC could have given people notice and let the PDFs that were already bought, be available for download for a few days.
There's a lot WotC could have done to minimise the ire of its customers. They chose not to. They chose to have people who had bought their product and given them money, be unable to legally download it one last time.
If you do something that is going to make your customers angry, you can't then turn around and say "We can't talk with you because you're so angry."
Which of course WotC hasn't said. WotC has said nothing beyond a few posts by Trevor and a press release that answers nobodies questions.
The issue is that there's no communication released. So, which is better, information when it becomes available, or information customers don't trust? ;)
One scenario you do nothing to try to soothe your customer. In the other you do try to do something. I think that answers your question ;)
Right now, there is no information to pass on.
Incorrect. There is information to pass on. WotC knows why they have done this and what they hope to gain from it and why they think it will work. They're choosing to keep most, if not all, of that to themselves. They also chose to not tell people why they aren't passing on the information. So we get everyone (including you) suggesting reasons for why they aren't passing information on.
And I hope you don't consider this to have been an attack on you. I disagree with what you said and posted my reasons for why I disagree. None of this post or my previous one is in any way an attack on you. I understand your role here. I've been in your place in the past. But the thing is, when I was in your place I was "working" for a company that would communicate with its customers and would in fact tell us forum "moderators/leaders/guides/volunteers/whatever" about big news before it hit the public so we could prepare. From where I'm sitting, WotC does not seem to treat you or its customers in the same way. The road they're taking is, IMO, not a good one.
Sure, I could speculate and guess, but I certainly don't want to add to the problem or have someone latch on to my thoughts as fact. Thus, the reason why I haven't posted on the thread. (Heh, even here there was a point I want to make, but- I don't want to get to debating.
)I'll ask the higher ups, but I'm sure I will either get no answer or "No information at this time".
As for me, I'm trying to keep things civil on the boards, keep the PDF thread from de-railing/being closed. So far so good. (Though, it may be an issue of re-starting the thread due to the sheer size of it. It does nobody good if the boards crash.)
Sorry, I meant I have no info to pass on.
Fair enough.
I'll ask the higher ups, but I'm sure I will either get no answer or "No information at this time".
I have no doubt. That's pretty much the whole point of this thread ;)
That's pretty much the whole point of this thread
The "point" of this thread was lost after the first post.
The "point" of this thread was lost after the first post.
Yeah I was hoping this would be a thread to help setup communications between WotC and their customers but it has degraded as most threads do.
I do have a few comments about communication though, so I am going to add my two cents to this just for WOTC.
First, I understand that some decisions cannot be made public until they are done. This might be in regards to the GSL, the release of products, what's in a product, how much it will cost, etc. Somethings just aren't available until everything is near completion or can't be commented on until it's put into motion.
The problem here is that WOTC has built the perception that it only notifies the public after it acts. Note, I did not say that WOTC does this but that they've allowed the "perception" of this to be created in the public. This is a communications issue. Perception of a brand is just as real as what the brand really does or is. Think something is cheap even if in reality it's not? Guess what, it's cheap because that's how it's perceived. Perception in the public mind has just as much impact on a brand as the facts about that brand.
WOTC needs to make an effort to discuss on their front page these type of decisions even if they can't talk about them till they're made. It shouldn't be noticed by customers first and explode into the ether because what happens is WOTC loses control of the message. If you jump out at the moment the decision is made and say "Hey, we are doing X Y and Z," you now can at least say that owned up to what you were doing. You don't have to say why your doing it, but just say you are doing it. I think that is all that is needed. The pdf debacle is just one example where the first things I read about it were from people and companies that weren't WOTC. The same goes for things happening about the insider, the GSL, the changing of release dates on books. WOTC has a bad habit of just doing things and not talking about things until they feel like it or until the scheduled communication period.
Schedules are great, but what happens is you lose ownership of your message. The perception is your response is due to being caught already doing things. Get in front of these actions, and you get to help set the tone of the conversation. Let someone else start, and you may already be losing.
Remember that making no decision is a decision in itself.
The "point" of this thread was lost after the first post.
This thread will be pointless until wotc decides to take advantage of it to communicate with us. Communication and Dialog imply a two-way flow of information which is something that has been glaringly absent.
-Polaris
This thread will be pointless until wotc decides to take advantage of it to communicate with us. Communication and Dialog imply a two-way flow of information which is something that has been glaringly absent.
-Polaris
I agree. The so-called "point-of-this-thread" can't be lost by us, the fans, because the key to it is held by WotC. It's not ours to lose. It's theirs to lose.
Just like our continued patronage is theirs to lose.
Frankly, I am flat-out amazed that there are so many people, fellow fans, who think that we are being ridiculous for desiring some kind of communication. I would get it if we were just unhappy with the information they were giving us, by way of dissent and disagreement. That would make sense. But, we're not to that point. We're nowhere near it. What we're upset about is the complete lack of information in the first place. It is in no way an unreasonable expectation that a company one is giving their business and support to should explain such actions as those WotC has taken recently.
Those of you who are defending WotC, at the tame end, and attacking/insulting us at the more extreme end, can very easily be mistaken for having a valid position. But, with all respect, you don't. I know that seems like a broad generalization, and it is, but it's also correct.
Your side of this would be perfectly valid and reasonable if WotC had told us something that we disagreed with and we were overreacting to it, or if WotC had given us an update that rubbed us the wrong way and we were flying off the handle abot it. But, that's not what's going on here.
What we're upset about is that they aren't telling us anything.
Nothing. As in, NO information at all.
I'm sorry but you are simply, flat-out wrong. As paying customers we most certainly DO deserve to know why existing purchases were cancelled, why an entire medium of product and game-support has been utterly removed from availability, what other changes we can expect, etc.?
You can growl under your bridge all you want. Your snark and cleverness doesn't change the fact that you're wrong. This isn't a dictatorship, it's a business. We're customers. All that money they have? It came from our wallets. It doesn't have to keep coming.
You're right about one thing, though. They don't have to tell us anything.
This is America... you don't have to do anything.
But, you do have to deal with the consequences. WotC is already feeling the pinch from this decision, I'm sure. What is perhaps less quantifiable at the outset, but will be razor-sharp in hindsight, is the image they're projecting onto the D&D label.
Speaking personally, I don't consider D&D the way I used to, anymore. I haven't in some time.
It becomes less and less a real, vibrant part of the RPG community with each new instance of disrespect toward the fans.
It is my honest view that what started as the father of all RPG-ing as we know it, has become a pale, lifeless imitation of the hobby. It's really starting to seem like the one mannequin in a room full of real, live people. And that is one-hundred percent because, as cordial as the books can come across in the writing, when push comes to shove, I just feel like a revenue-stream with an ID number tattooed, bar-code style onto my forehead.
Arc Dream doesn't treat me like that. Evil Hat doesn't treat me like that. Atlas doesn't treat me like that.
Smaller companies, sure.
WotC is huge.
But, that's an explanation, not an excuse. In fact, it's not even an explanation, given that they aren't actually saying it (or anything else.)
As for the allegation that fans never actually go forward with threats of a boycott. There are quite a few, formerly-successful companies who snowed their customers one too many times, who might disagree.
Hell, Hasbro was nearly one of them back in the early 90s.
Frankly, I am flat-out amazed that there are so many people, fellow fans, who think that we are being ridiculous for desiring some kind of communication.
I don't find anyone to be ridiculous for desiring some kind of communication.
I do find most of the participants in this thread to be ridiculous in the manner in which they express that desire, replacing a request for information with a demand for insider information.
What we're upset about is that they aren't telling us anything.
Nothing. As in, NO information at all.
Bulette-feces. You're resorting to hyperbole to create a justification for the emotional over-reaction and a helluva lot of false indignity. The number of people griping about the current "communication" know everything they need to know. It is what they know that is driving the whining.
We already know the decision. All of it.
We learned of the decision within minutes of its implementation.
If the folks that are so up in arms on this threads are fans, count me out of that category. I love the game of Dungeons & Dragons, and don't feel the need to demonize the publisher because of a poorly-communication business decision.
I'm sorry to see this thread get derailed so.
I do have a few comments about communication though, so I am going to add my two cents to this just for WOTC.
First, I understand that some decisions cannot be made public until they are done. This might be in regards to the GSL, the release of products, what's in a product, how much it will cost, etc. Somethings just aren't available until everything is near completion or can't be commented on until it's put into motion.
The problem here is that WOTC has built the perception that it only notifies the public after it acts. Note, I did not say that WOTC does this but that they've allowed the "perception" of this to be created in the public. This is a communications issue. Perception of a brand is just as real as what the brand really does or is. Think something is cheap even if in reality it's not? Guess what, it's cheap because that's how it's perceived. Perception in the public mind has just as much impact on a brand as the facts about that brand.
WOTC needs to make an effort to discuss on their front page these type of decisions even if they can't talk about them till they're made. It shouldn't be noticed by customers first and explode into the ether because what happens is WOTC loses control of the message. If you jump out at the moment the decision is made and say "Hey, we are doing X Y and Z," you now can at least say that owned up to what you were doing. You don't have to say why your doing it, but just say you are doing it. I think that is all that is needed. The pdf debacle is just one example where the first things I read about it were from people and companies that weren't WOTC. The same goes for things happening about the insider, the GSL, the changing of release dates on books. WOTC has a bad habit of just doing things and not talking about things until they feel like it or until the scheduled communication period.
Schedules are great, but what happens is you lose ownership of your message. The perception is your response is due to being caught already doing things. Get in front of these actions, and you get to help set the tone of the conversation. Let someone else start, and you may already be losing.
Remember that making no decision is a decision in itself.
I agree fully with this message. Relevant article
The article I've linked is from the STL Dispatch regarding how a different company had to take control of it's own message back from it's critics. The sad part here is that Wotc doesn't even need to take it message back from critics, just concerned/upset fans. I think it's fairly obvious why these fans, the people on the forums, need to be engaged. While they may be a small portion of Wotc's customer base, they are also the most likely to be vocal in the customer community. Enough outspoken customers will eventually cause noticable attrition.
Bulette-feces. You're resorting to hyperbole to create a justification for the emotional over-reaction and a helluva lot of false indignity.
And you are resorting to snark and cynicism because your point has no impact without it.
We already know the decision. All of it.
We learned of the decision within minutes of its implementation.
Oh, is that a fact???
Well, here's something I've still not gotten an answer to in a week of fruitless emailing. Since a purchase I made entitled me to FIVE downloads, and I only had a chance to partake of one of them, why, when this order was yanked out from under me, was I not refunded the remaining four-fifths of the purchase price?
How about this one?
Why was any publishing company even CAPABLE of cancelling a purchase I had already made and paid for without telling me a word about it ahead of time or even after the fact?
No offense, but don't ever refer to my indignation over this as "false." You clearly weren't as affected by this as some of us. As I see it, the only person on this thread who's clearly too "on the outside" of this situation to offer meaningful commentary is you. It's easy to scoff and look down your nose at the rest of us when you weren't affected by the decision.
Webster's already sending the threads. What he's talking about is whether he should disclose his list publicly.
I'll try anything once.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18310956
(As someone once told me, "Just do it." If it doesn't work out and I do get slammed, I'll just keep sending threads up without disclosing what they are.
)Well, here's something I've still not gotten an answer to in a week of fruitless emailing. Since a purchase I made entitled me to FIVE downloads, and I only had a chance to partake of one of them, why, when this order was yanked out from under me, was I not refunded the remaining four-fifths of the purchase price?
That question should be directed at the retailer. You don't ask Fruit of the Loom why Target won't refund you for your underwear purchase. At least, you don't until after you've gone through Target's customer service.
How about this one?
Why was any publishing company even CAPABLE of canceling a purchase I had already made and paid for without telling me a word about it ahead of time or even after the fact?
Because product recalls trump sales. That RPGNow chose to keep your money and stated no policy regarding returns is an RPGNow customer service issue. That WotC did not pre-announce its decision is poor communication practice, but it may be smart litigation practice. But here you are blaming the customer service practices (the non-refund by RPGNow on the publisher. That blame is misplaced.
You're mad. That's fine. It's understandable. But in being angry you stated half-truths and exaggerations in your earlier posts. I don't know if you felt your anger needed more "factual" support than you had, or it is simply your manner of posting. But your anger clouded your posts. The hyperbole of your posts made it easy to dismiss as yet one more bandwagon indignant.
I try to find the source and post it later.
[edit]
I cannot seem to find it.
Perhaps it is just a rumor.
If you want to communicate with people at WotC who actually have the power to change things, you should send a letter to customer service or email tam at the "Contact Us" link below.
Posting to a message board intended for use by fans is not the ideal method of getting in touch with executives, who are not known for frequenting these boards. Even the designers do so sporadically at best.
Not to start an arguement with you but maybe that is part of the problem. Most feel that they don't care how we feel about things. If they are not coming on here to see how we feel then that is a problem for most people.
Not to start an arguement with you but maybe that is part of the problem. Most feel that they don't care how we feel about things. If they are not coming on here to see how we feel then that is a problem for most people.
Webster does send them threads, which might be perused generally for an overall view. If you want your individual voice heard, you should make the effort to be heard as an individual. Send a message to Customer Service, whether by email or snail mail. I really don't understand why that should cause offense.
Well I'm not affected by the situation, but I think it's awful what they did to people and I'm not buying any more books until they answer for it. I've already cancelled my Arcane Power pre-order. I suggest others do as well because companies only listen to one thing, and it's money.
I think this month's pen and paper purchase will be some Paranoia books.
Agreed. I was about to buy PHB2 (I would have already had I not been busy with work and such). Now I will wait. Maybe I will never get it if I see no change. I can certainly live without it, and enough other people have it already that I can just borrow their copies. WotC might not care about a single customer, or even a relatively small group of customers, but that does not deter me from voicing my opinion via my wallet.
Webster does send them threads, which might be perused generally for an overall view. If you want your individual voice heard, you should make the effort to be heard as an individual. Send a message to Customer Service, whether by email or snail mail. I really don't understand why that should cause offense.
CustomerService is for problems with the game. We post on here to tell everyone even other customers and the company itself what we think works and doesn't work with the game. Now a days it just seems like they (the company) just doesn't care. To say they don't even come here and read the forum hurt just alittle. Not saying you VCLs are not doing a good job. I think it is great what you do. But, as far as I know, you are not the Company and they can listen to you or not depend on what they feel. For me It is there product but it has been Our game for a long time. They are getting better but I see more that could be done.
Agreed. I was about to buy PHB2 (I would have already had I not been busy with work and such). Now I will wait. Maybe I will never get it if I see no change. I can certainly live without it, and enough other people have it already that I can just borrow their copies. WotC might not care about a single customer, or even a relatively small group of customers, but that does not deter me from voicing my opinion via my wallet.
Most businesses have good look on this. A mad customer equals 20 people they tell about why they are mad. A happy customer equals 8 people they tell. As long as the ratio is right they don't care. Because they would gain more then lose. If it falls below a certain level then they would need to start to worry and take steps. Is that now or not I could not tell you.
Parts of my answer:
It's been my observation that when WotC does communicate something, it often comes back to bite them.
How many WotC staff have been chased away with a constant barage of negativity? And people expect two way communication? WotC keeps trying, but some folks refuse to see it.
"We are unable to speak of this issue due to a current lawsuit. Please be patient" would STILL be met with open hostility.
Someone on the PDF thread claimed WotC has said nothing. Mudbunny responded with a quote from Trevor. And immediatley got jumped on as it if were all Mudbunny's decision. Mudbunny had NOTHING to do with it, wasn't arguing it, or trying to be involved with the conversation. Just pass along info.
If that's how a volunteer is treated, can you imagine how a WotC employee would be treated?
Then I see this:
I'm sorry you feel that way Klausgreen, but nobody at Wizards of the Coast believes users who purchased D&D 4e PDF products are criminals.That's non-sensical to even post and can only be seen as a patronising insult.
Normally when you buy digital products, you are allowed a certain number of downloads so that you can reclaim your purchases if for some reason your computer fails, your hard drive becomes corrupted or similar things. In this case Wizards is actually cancelling the purchase itself, making it void on my end without compensating me in the slightest way!
And this is after final purchase has been made. I'm currently having my lawyer look into this as this is pure breach of contractual consent. Just as people can't be allowed to steal products just because they are in a digital format, a retailing company can't withdraw their product no matter the medium. At least not without full compensation.
This debate on the other hand will ofcourse not be conducted on the forum, although the glaringly offensive answer by Paradox will be included in the complaint.
(Bolded for emphasis.)
Really? Dox is acknowledging the frustration and pointing out that's NOT how WotC feels, and a legal complaint is going to be made on him.
This is probably why WotC stays silent. To offer anything, even sympathy, is viewed with hostility.
Are you honestly suprised by this? This very negativity you cite (at length I add) is precisely the result you get when the company (not the VCLs and the like but the company) doesn't spend enough time and effort in genuine communication with it's customers from the very beginning.
This isn't the first time a company has asked a retailer to pull it's pdf stock for legal reasons (discussed at length in that other thread), but in that case Goodman Games told the distributer what was up and a mutually agreed upon 'sell by' date was established. The point is both parties communicated and trusted each other and from there their customers.
It's an attitude I've found lacking from Wotc for about 4-5 years now, and you're seeing the end result.
-Polaris
The hyperbole of your posts made it easy to dismiss as yet one more bandwagon indignant.
And your lack of any coherent purpose here other than to tell us all what idiots we are for *gasp* getting mad when someone rips us off, makes you easy to dismiss as yet one more lurking troll.
CustomerService is for problems with the game.
Customer Service is for problems that customers have. Whether rules-based or otherwise. Customer Service is the conduit between the customers and management.
These forums are primarily for fans to talk to each other. The VCLs will funnel stuff up through customer service, and members of management do post to these forums ocassionally, but that's not the main purpose of the forums, and it's unrealistic to expect that the company can read each of the tens of thousands of posts that are made her on a daily basis about corporate management.
I'm just offering you information on how to make your individual voice stronger.
To say they don't even come here and read the forum hurt just alittle.
I didn't say they don't come here. They do. I'm just telling you that even better than posting here and hoping they happen to see your post among the thousands of posts, you can send them your opnion directly. Doesn't that sound like a better way to have your individual opinion heard?
And your lack of any coherent purpose here other than to tell us all what idiots we are for *gasp* getting mad when someone rips us off, makes you easy to dismiss as yet one more lurking troll.
Here you are with the hyperbole, misrepresentation, and fabrication again.
I have not called you an idiot.
Nobody has ripped you off.
Though I don't know if that was possible. It may be that the nature of their case required quick and sudden action. If so I would expect some kind of apology after the case ends.
Either way, it would be nice to be informed before something major happens. (Not product wise but policy wise. I'm not asking for them to say what's in the works and what products they have in line. I'm asking for them to inform us before taking a drastic action such as cutting of PDF sales.)
A lot of this "Communication" problem could have been avoided if WotC simply
communicated?
-James
A lot of this "Communication" problem could have been avoided if WotC simply gave a day or two of notice before taking down the PDFs. They still would get the flak from those who didn't want it taken down but there wouldn't have been as much of an outcry from people suddenly getting cut off.
Though I don't know if that was possible. It may be that the nature of their case required quick and sudden action. If so I would expect some kind of apology after the case ends.
Either way, it would be nice to be informed before something major happens. (Not product wise but policy wise. I'm not asking for them to say what's in the works and what products they have in line. I'm asking for them to inform us before taking a drastic action such as cutting of PDF sales.)
I'm pretty sure they cut it taht suddenly because if they didn't then there would have been a rush of people buying the PDFs to get them on the trackers before they were unavailable.
I'm pretty sure they cut it taht suddenly because if they didn't then there would have been a rush of people buying the PDFs to get them on the trackers before they were unavailable.
Yeah that's the last thing a company wants in these times.. people rushing to purchase things from them...
Yeah that's the last thing a company wants in these times.. people rushing to purchase things from them...
Yep. That would mean an uptick in business. Can't have that....
-Polaris
I believe that RPGNow has set April 15th as the day for downloading .pdf files for those that haven't been able to get their downloads.
I try to find the source and post it later.
[edit]
I cannot seem to find it.
Perhaps it is just a rumor.
hey, what do you know, I found it.
http://www.rpgnow.com/wizards_letter.php
I suspect the vast majority of this "paying minority" will remain a paying minority long after this blows over.
(...)
Even after multiple posts with the press release have been shared in the multiple threads, people are still whining about the inhumanity of it all. People don't want advanced notice. They don't need information ('cause enough of them are ignoring it anyway. People want to complain. And very few of them have the balls to follow through on their threats of boycott.
You are quite right on one thing: hyperboles and threats do little to improve human relationships.
However, lack of communication is bound to convey lack of care - and that is equally deleterious in human relationships. This much is not rocket science.
And such behaviour tends to be perceived as quite offensive. It does not take being irrational for this to happen.
Now, let's see what we have here.
A product has been pulled from the market.
Customers haven't received any notice of this from the producer, advance or not.
It is not unreasonable for human beings to perceive the producer as not having bothered (or like I said, going from lack of communication to lack of care).
It wouldn't cost that much to send retailers an email of notice to distribute to customers (and due to the nature of the transactions, retailers do have the means to do so).
It costs even less to put a notice on the D&D web page.
That the minority that pays for the pdfs (thus contributing to WotC) has been hit by this move; and it has been hit way harder than the majority who happily gets the digital books illegally - the alleged reason - adds insult to injury, and I don't find this unreasonable either.
Then, although still indirectly, we do get access to some communication from the company.
Not only it is bad that the only sources available for such information are external to the channels of communication the company has open (web page, boards).
In such interviews, we see pearls like "there is no loss as we still publish the books" (Let them eat cakes, anyone?) or "the majority of our customers will not be affected by this move".
It's perfectly true. But if you want to keep a good relationship with your customers you need to address the people you are denying a service to, not those who won't be affected - they, of course, won't care that much already.
And those who are affected basically get this message: you are not important to us. It does not take being irrational for this to happen. It does not take being irrational to react negatively.
At worst, a bunch of them will go looking for illegal sites to download the PDFs (by this, I mean the ones not already doing that) and gain some smug satisfaction in feeling like they are sticking it to the man. And later this month, they'll still buy Arcane Power, 'cause the book just feels better than the PDFs on a screen.
Yes, when you own a brand strong enough, you can get away with some poor business choices and still retain your customers, sometimes.
But that doesn't make those choices good. And it doesn't even work all the time.
Also, that minority who used to buy the pdf was clearly not affected by "the book just fels better than a PDF on a screen". Quite the opposite: for them, and I'm one of those, the PDF on the screen is just that much more convenient than the bulky book. ;)
I'll try anything once.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18310956
(As someone once told me, "Just do it." If it doesn't work out and I do get slammed, I'll just keep sending threads up without disclosing what they are.
Thank you Webster.
If you want to communicate with people at WotC who actually have the power to change things, you should send a letter to customer service or email tam at the "Contact Us" link below.
Posting to a message board intended for use by fans is not the ideal method of getting in touch with executives, who are not known for frequenting these boards. Even the designers do so sporadically at best.
I had read this before and took it one way But after what you posted I read it a few more time and it hit me that you could have been saying they didn't have the time to read through all the threads. Want to say sorry for assuming. I should have just asked in the first place.
Yeah that's the last thing a company wants in these times.. people rushing to purchase things from them...
Funny how you completely disregarded the second half of the sentence. You know, the part about "to get them on the trackers before they became unavailable." Sure there would be a one time increase in sales, but also a probable increase in piracy.
Funny how you completely disregarded the second half of the sentence. You know, the part about "to get them on the trackers before they became unavailable." Sure there would be a one time increase in sales, but also a probable increase in piracy.
News flash, they're already on the trackers and being downloaded, that's what brought about this knee-jerk reaction. There wouldn't need to be a last minute rush for the pirates because every last one of those books was already available through torrents. If anything, you will see an increase in piracy now because piracy is now the only option for people who want pdfs of their books.