Can whoever is in charge of the WOTC website stop using American date formats and start using an international format?
I was just going through the errata updates and trying to figure out the dates is impossible. 07/06/2010 means "7th of June" to non-Americans like me.
If the WOTC webmaster was to consult page 1 of any web development textbook, they might learn the rule about always using the medium date format (06 Jul 2010) so as to prevent this kind of annoyance.
Q: What is the difference between the Americans and the Chinese?
A: The Chinese say: "Of all the countries in the world, we are the most important".
The Americans say: "Huh? Other countries?"
A note of potential interest:
WotC is an American company based in an American city in an American state. Using American date format, therefore, is no worse than using English as the default language. It's just how they roll.
For the record, Microsoft, Coca-Cola, IBM, McDonalds, and the Los Angeles Times are all examples of an "American company based in an American city in an American state." Yet they manage to use a internationall date format. Even Hasbro (WOTC's parent company) manages to use an international format.
Plus (as noted above although you somehow missed it) - all books on web design make this point: the web is an international medium, so use a format which suits an international audience. Otherwise you just annoy the 700 million non-Americans who speak English fluently.
Seriously - that comment is disgraceful. I'm worried that you didn't realise how disgraceful it actually was.
Zombie_Babies - that is quite simply the *dumbest* thing I have ever heard.
Oh, you have one of those text-to-voice devices? Neat! I've always been interested in them, but I can never find one that doesn't get my partner started on Steven Hawking jokes.
Seriously though, have you avoided ever reading anything about history or current news? Fifteen dumber things happen every second on youtube. There's reels of stupider things making the idiot-box on that "America's Funniest Videos". The headlines of any newspaper are full of 'em.
So yeah. If the stupidest thing you've ever heard is the idea of America-centric thinking, then you should have, at the least, heard/read that back when you were learning about the great westward expansion in middle school1. And hell, Nasa has made that mistake before. Remember the "we work in inches, our subcontractor worked in centimeters, we accidentally dive bombed a few million worth of expensive advanced electronics and computing power into Mars, our bad" debacle a decade or so ago?
________
1 Assuming you went to middle school in America, that is.
Zombie_Babies - that is quite simply the *dumbest* thing I have ever heard. Since when is it smart business to only do what suits the company and not the customers?
For the record, Microsoft, Coca-Cola, IBM, McDonalds, and the Los Angeles Times are all examples of an "American company based in an American city in an American state." Yet they manage to use a internationall date format. Even Hasbro (WOTC's parent company) manages to use an international format.
Plus (as noted above although you somehow missed it) - all books on web design make this point: the web is an international medium, so use a format which suits an international audience. Otherwise you just annoy the 700 million non-Americans who speak English fluently.
Seriously - that comment is disgraceful. I'm worried that you didn't realise how disgraceful it actually was.
Overreact much? He's right, it's an American company and I have a sneaking suspicion that the vast majority of their customers may be American. Now its not like they have completely shut themselves off to the outside world, or seriously wronged you or your country, all they've done is used the date format that is most natural to them. I'm in the Army, and we use many different date formats, sometimes different formats on the same page of the same form. So I feel quite comfortable in telling you that this is a minor inconvenience to you at worst. The sky is not falling. Relax. You'll get over it.
I also don't see why "7 Jul 2010" is inherently less natural than "07/06/2010".
As for your "vast majority" statement - I'd be intrigued to know if the American market for WOTC actually does exceed the combined international market.
If so i would be the rare exception, as for most forms of general entertainment the US share is 25-40% (still leaving the US as the most important single country obviously).
If the foreign market was less than (say) 10%, then I'd have to concede you have a good point. But I'd be very surprised if that was the case. And if it's higher, then that is a lot of people dealing with an unfamiliar date format... which can be very easily fixed.
Now, if you really want to get them to change it, start a petition or email campaign to customer service. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, or so the saying goes, so if WotC discovers that this really annoys a significant amount of people, they may just change it.
Or not, but that is their decision. So you'll have to either live with it or move along.
I'm not switching to metric though.
Back in May I received an email from a local retailer who has misinterpreted a release date for a WOTC book and I placed an order accordingly. I then wasted a trip into the city centre in order to get a book that wasn't arriving for another month.
RubicantX - OT: I don't mind the imperial system - I even agree that saying "6' tall" is more intuitive than saying 180cm, (and I was never taught the American system). But it has not been without consequence - it's a significant factor in the decline of the US auto and heavy machinery industries, which has cost a lot of people their jobs. The (inaccurate) public perception that all American cars use imperial measurement (and are thus very difficult/expensive to repair) has severely restricted sales internationally. John Deere is a notable exception to this having been publicly metric since the 1960's, and they remain a global market leader despite strong Asian competition.
I think I've had more of a "vehement defense" when talking about my breakfast preferences...
You guys are forgetting that everything the US does is [...] imperialistic [...]
Even our music? [link]
You guys are forgetting that everything the US does is bad, wrong, selfish, imperialistic, etc. ad nauseum...
LOL! Oh well.
Love the Gadsden, btw.
You guys are forgetting that everything the US does is [...] imperialistic [...]
Even our music? [link]
Shhh! Don't tell anyone!
joydyhee - actually it's not *that* immaterial. While I am capable of figuring out whether an ambiguous date is American or not if there is a non-ambiguous date nearby to identify (eg 6/20/2010), it is far more difficult to figure out whether someone else has misinterpreted a date or not.
Back in May I received an email from a local retailer who has misinterpreted a release date for a WOTC book and I placed an order accordingly. I then wasted a trip into the city centre in order to get a book that wasn't arriving for another month.
That is unfortunate, and I am sure happens for a variety of reasons, date mix-ups being one of them. I buy most of my stuff online now since my FLGS is almost an hour away from me, but when I do order stuff from them, even if they give me a "guaranteed" delivery date, I either ask for an email confirmation of delivery or I call them on the date in question so I do not waste the trip.
And by waste the trip, I mean go to the store and buy other stuff that I did not order because, let's face it, if I am there, I am probably going to buy something!
It's a vehement defense to point out that claiming an American-centric PoV is the stupidest thing you've ever heard says a lot more about you then then anything else?
No, stating that "it's OK to ignore the needs of a substantial portion of a company's customer base" is stupid. I'm sorry if you read it as an anti-American thing. As I pointed out, the vast majority of American companies (including Hasbro, WOTC's parent company) adopt international date formats on their websites.
To be honest the only reason I originally opened this thread was that I thought it was about something else entirely. I saw "dates" and thought someone was trying to get laid here.
No, stating that "it's OK to ignore the needs of a substantial portion of a company's customer base" is stupid.
Has anyone actually said it isn't stupid? They've mostly been either snarking from the sidelines or, at most, saying it's understandable.
To be honest the only reason I originally opened this thread was that I thought it was about something else entirely. I saw "dates" and thought someone was trying to get laid here.
LOL...like WotC friendfinder? I thought there was a forum here for that already...
Zombie_Babies - that is quite simply the *dumbest* thing I have ever heard. Since when is it smart business to only do what suits the company and not the customers?
For the record, Microsoft, Coca-Cola, IBM, McDonalds, and the Los Angeles Times are all examples of an "American company based in an American city in an American state." Yet they manage to use a internationall date format. Even Hasbro (WOTC's parent company) manages to use an international format.
Plus (as noted above although you somehow missed it) - all books on web design make this point: the web is an international medium, so use a format which suits an international audience. Otherwise you just annoy the 700 million non-Americans who speak English fluently.
Seriously - that comment is disgraceful. I'm worried that you didn't realise how disgraceful it actually was.
Heh. Yeah, disgraceful. Umm, the majority of the customers are likely American. So they are doing what suits their customers - and their employees. It ain't their (nor my) fault that you don't understand that. Aside from that, you're complaining about something that's such a non-issue it's well, silly. With all of the other stuff out there you could have latched onto (no VTT, Essentials, new forums, etc) you went and decided to whine about a date format. I'm sorry, but there are bigger - and actually relevant - fish to fry. So let's just have you not take me seriously and I'll continue to not take you seriously and we can both be happy. Er, well I can be happy. See, I don't care about the date format (and wouldn't were it to change). Wow, it's almost like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders! You know, if there ever actually was one there in the first place.
Habit. I highly doubt that anyone has ever commented before on the format that the dates are in, and it is not something that, unless you use different formats regularly, that you think of or even consider.
I will let WotC know that some international customers would like to have dates put in a less ambiguous format.
To be honest the only reason I originally opened this thread was that I thought it was about something else entirely. I saw "dates" and thought someone was trying to get laid here.
LOL...like WotC friendfinder? I thought there was a forum here for that already...
I see I'm not the only one familiar with some of those sites...
I will let WotC know that some international customers would like to have dates put in a less ambiguous format.
What about the American customers who gets confused about the Euro dating?
Or simply want to keep it the way it is?
Wow...
Unbelievable...
What about the American customers who gets confused about the Euro dating?
That's why it's oftentimes better1 to go with dd-mmmm-yyyy2 format, as it doesn't confuse anyone.
________
1In this case, I'm defining "better" as "something that's less likely to upset or confuse people while giving the date in an easy to read non-ambiguous manner". Some applications in which space is severely limited this might not be a good solution, but saving two characters for using an abreviated month instead of a numberical month isn't normally worth it.
2That is, 07/13/10 and 13/07/10 become 13-July-2010. See? Not ambiguous at all.
I will let WotC know that some international customers would like to have dates put in a less ambiguous format.
What about the American customers who gets confused about the Euro dating?
Or simply want to keep it the way it is?
Wow...
Unbelievable...
By unambiguous, I mean unambiguous.
Jan 10 2011.
That kind of dating.
To be honest the only reason I originally opened this thread was that I thought it was about something else entirely. I saw "dates" and thought someone was trying to get laid here.
LOL...like WotC friendfinder? I thought there was a forum here for that already...
I see I'm not the only one familiar with some of those sites...
Hmmm, a day after I post this I get this in my email:
HELLO
My name is miss joy, i saw your profile today and became intrested
in you,i will also like to know you the more,(Remeber the distance or
colour does not matter but love matters alot in life) please reply me
on my Email ID(favourjoy4life@yahoo.com) so i can give you my
picture and tell you more about me
for you to know whom i am.
favourjoy4life@yahoo.com
As for date formats, I'm personally partial to either 14 Jul 10, or 20100714. But really it doesn't bother me no matter how they do it because I just don't get wrapped around the axle around little details like that.
What about the American customers who gets confused about the Euro dating?
Or simply want to keep it the way it is?
Wow...
Unbelievable...
Obviously it would be nonsensical to use the dd/mm/yy format instead, as that is equally ambiguous.
Either version of the "medium" date format ("4 Jul 2010" or "Jul 4 2010") works for an international audience. (The long date format is obviously OK as well, except it can be impractical in HTML tables at times.)
Hey Mudbunny. If you are passing this request onto Wizards, could you also let them know that digital river also uses the non-intuitive date system. This caused me some confusion when my subscription was about to run out. I eventually worked it out, and no money was lost etc. but it was still annoying.
I will do that.
However in this case it might not be a bad idea to pass that request through Digital River as well. I am not sure how much "pull" WotC has for stuff like that.
This whole thread got started because a store owner in Sydney Australia sent out an email announcement about a book release slated for June 7 when the book was actually coming out on July 6. The store owner has misread the product catalog on the WOTC website (which gave the date as 07/06/2010... which here means June 7th).
So I suggested that the date format be changed to something less ambiguous (eg. the medium date format - 7 Jul 2010). This then provoked a storm of protest for some bizarre reason
Perhaps it isn't the dating systems problem, but rather the unattentive store owners.
I really don't see *why* the store owner should have had to pay more attention. We never see these date formats in daily life and 99% of websites have learned not to use them, so we simply don't have any exposure.
It's a fact that America uses a short date format that no* other country in the world does. There's nothing wrong with that and I'm not suggesting that Americans should abandon this practice. But equally I don't see why non-Americans should be expected to adopt it.
The solution is to use a non-ambiguous, medium date format, like pretty much every other website in the world already does.
(*Except possibly Canada - I'm not sure what they use. And Japan do it backwards eg. 10/07/04 = Jul 4 2010).
I really don't see *why* the store owner should have hadto pay more attention.
... because it's his job?
Saying it's "his job" is tantamount to saying, "America does it this way, so you have to as well".
IF WOTC closes down its UK/European and Asian-Pacific distributor networks then I will completely accept a US-centric website. But as long as they are going to sell to an international audience, then they should try to ensure these sorts of problems don't occur.
Saying it's "his job" is tantamount to saying, "America does it this way, so you have to as well".
Isn't it really more like "America does it this way, so if you're dealing with an American company, it's worth double-checking which date format they're using"?
While I completely agree that it would be better if WotC used a less ambiguous date format, I also think the mistake in this case was entirely the store owner's fault. If he's running a gaming store, a lot of his merchandise is going to be coming from US-based companies and it's hard to believe he isn't aware that dates are formatted differently in the US.
I deal with American companies all the time (for business purposes unrelated to gaming) and I've also never had to deal with this date problem. Most company websites either use medium formats, allow for profile customisation, or have IP-sensitive web servers which reset the date formats automatically.
The store owner (when apologising to all the affected customers) complained that WOTC was the only company he deals with that didn't account for this problem.
Then he should have known better or double checked.
But I guess blaming America is the "cool" thing to do because everybody is doing it.
Why can't the store owner show some personal responsibility instead of blaming something/someone else?
I believe my previous comment made it quite clear that American companies were *overwhelmingly excellent* when it came to this international market-relations issue. This is purely a WOTC issue.
Comments like "I guess blaming America is the "cool" thing to do because everybody is doing it" are just childish, frankly. I've yet to see anyone in the western world blaming America for anything at any time (despite Fox News cranking the "everyone hates America" paranoia angle at every opportunity).
(OK, sure, the USA is not very popular in the Middle East, but neither is any other western nation. And without intending to diminish the awful magnitude of Sept 11, don't forget Al Qaeda has also attacked Spanish, British, German and Australian targets)
I think everyone, regardless of country of origin, should know that short date formats are nothing but a headache without a key. A simple "mm/dd/yy" above the date column would clear this up, or using something less ambiguous.
How can someone NOT go "ok, what (or when) the hell does this mean?" when looking at 08/09/10? (With no key, of course.)
As a consequence we (the international market) are just not accustomed to ever having to worry about it. Hence it's going to cause problems in specific cases like this, as even with a key above the date column, too many people are going to just read it how they are accustomed to reading it.
Saying it's "his job" is tantamount to saying, "America does it this way, so you have to as well".
Nope. It's me saying that if you're e-mailing your customers to let them know when a product is ready, you probably shouldn't tell them the wrong date. And it's not like other vendors don't have their own issues. Whenever you're dealing with multiple vendors, you have to deal with all the different idiosyncrasies yourself to make it easier on your customers. That's part of being a retailer.
Would his job be easier if WotC displayed their dates differently? Maybe. But just because his job could be easier doesn't mean it's not his job to give his customers the right information.
Sorry you find it hard to believe. The store owner (when apologising to all the affected customers) complained that WOTC was the only company he deals with that didn't account for this problem.
I certainly don't find it hard to believe that he chose to duck responsibility for his own screw-up and pin the blame on somebody else. That's eminently believable.
I'm British, by the way, so the US date format is as foreign to me as it is to you and your gaming store owner. But I know that it exists and that, when looking at a date in a US source, I need to check the format. It's not, IMO, an unreasonable burden.