But letting Solice go was a mistake.
I'll miss Noonan too and Tweet.
IS the thing about post release shakeouts that one guy mentioned true?
Yeah, Solice inherited a mess and had done a good job undoing it.
I'll miss Noonan too and Tweet.
IS the thing about post release shakeouts that one guy mentioned true?
Generally speaking, yes. It's true for software as well. You generally need more people in-house to get things rolling, then you move them off of payroll onto freelance once things are out the door.
Generally speaking, yes. It's true for software as well. You generally need more people in-house to get things rolling, then you move them off of payroll onto freelance once things are out the door.
I hope that they keep bringing these guys on as freelancers for future books, especially Dave Noonan. I'm also hoping this wasn't sprung on them at the last minute, and that they knew they'd be moved off payroll after the edition was out and stable.
At any rate, my heart goes out to these guys, especially this close to the holidays.
And I predict that many people will rush to rationalize the DDI layoffs as something other than indicative of its problems thus far.
But letting Solice go was a mistake.
I agree that it probably was a mistake, but then, we don't really know the whole story either. Hell, we don't even know if it's true yet.
That said, I haven't been in the cemetery with my dancing shoes for the past six months, waiting for D&DI and 4E to arrive the way you have, Shemeska. Yeah things haven't always been moving at top speed, but I think it's a lot more reasonable to point fingers at the worst economy in twenty years than at WotC's products.
Laying off Randy Buehler sounds HIGHLY suspicious.
',: | I don't think I'd be so quick to trust the word of the PAIZO CEO without any OTHER sources to back her up...
Laying off Randy Buehler sounds HIGHLY suspicious.
Well he is/was the head of the Digital Initiative. That's pretty much failed, the only thing left is to lob off the head and move on. Honestly, he should have stayed with M:tG, he'd have a much safer job over there, even if this report proves false.
Well he is/was the head of the Digital Initiative. That's pretty much failed, the only thing left is to lob off the head and move on. Honestly, he should have stayed with M:tG, he'd have a much safer job over there, even if this report proves false.
Yikes. Am I the only one still crossing his fingers for the Game Table?
Assuming this is all accurate, of course.
Under no circumstances is top management allowed to touch the heads of Mearls or Wyatt, dammit
Well he is/was the head of the Digital Initiative. That's pretty much failed, the only thing left is to lob off the head and move on. Honestly, he should have stayed with M:tG, he'd have a much safer job over there, even if this report proves false.
Hmmm...are they making a profit? Yes! Are the Magazines excellent? Yes! Is the Compendium useful and commonly used by subscribers? Yes! Are the Bonus Tools used by many people? Yes!
All of this is easy to see just by browsing the DDI Board. It has not failed, they're just MASSIVELY behind. The MARKETING Department needs to be Fired, and I have always had this feeling that HASBRO has taken over that particular area of WotC. Randy Buehler has done nothing wrong and has done MANY things right.
Well, to be fair, Noonan has taken quite a thrashing lately from his lame defense of Careful Strike and his rather ineptly-designed Backgrounds on the Web content. So, if a designer was to go, I'm not overly surprised to see it be him. I'm surprised to see Longstreet and Solice go, though.
I must have missed this, what happened now?
Under no circumstances is top management allowed to touch the heads of Mearls or Wyatt, dammit
Amen to that! Its times like these I wish I were a billionaire! I would hire everyone WotC is firing and have them make a new RPG!
Hmmm...are they making a profit? Yes! Are the Magazines excellent? Yes! Is the Compendium useful and commonly used by subscribers? Yes! Are the Bonus Tools used by many people? Yes!
All of this is easy to see just by browsing the DDI Board. It has not failed, they're just MASSIVELY behind. The MARKETING Department needs to be Fired, and I have always had this feeling that HASBRO has taken over that particular area of WotC. Randy Buehler has done nothing wrong and has done MANY things right.
Behind schedule still leads to heads rolling. No doubt they have done some good but 8 months behind schedule is inexcusable!
Behind schedule still leads to heads rolling. No doubt they have done some good but 8 months behind schedule is inexcusable!
And who do you think has put ALLLLL of WotC to this ridiculously fast-paced schedule just for profit margins? Who do you think FORCED them to release 4E sooner than I'm fairly sure they would have liked? With none of the Online Support they would have liked to have with it?
Why, HASBRO, of course.
And who do you think has put ALLLLL of WotC to this ridiculously fast-paced schedule just for profit margins? Who do you think FORCED them to release 4E sooner than I'm fairly sure they would have liked? With none of the Online Support they would have liked to have with it?
I'm sure their heads are rolling as well, its just we don't know who they are (and I'm sure a fair number may have been foreigners as well (thus making it even harder to find out)).
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I think Hasbro is completely at fault here and noone should be canned BUT if somone has to be canned, if for the sake of appearances alone, then Buehler being both the symbolic and actual head of the Digital Initiative would be the first to go.
Still, I'm not getting why so many others had to be let off (or him for that matter) unless something serious is going on behind the scenes.
Well, to be fair, Noonan has taken quite a thrashing lately from his lame defense of Careful Strike and his rather ineptly-designed Backgrounds on the Web content.
Wait, what? Surely you're not talking about Characters of War, which was really, really good and followed an engineerable formula.
I must have missed this, what happened now?
Wait, what? Surely you're not talking about Characters of War, which was really, really good and followed an engineerable formula.
Apparently, Backgrounds have been deemed "broken" by the Optimizers That Be (tm). Thus, he failed! Even though said Backgrounds are comparable to the FRPG Backgrounds, which we saw considerably sooner than those in Dragon, and did indeed follow, for the most part, a very specific formula.
Behind schedule still leads to heads rolling. No doubt they have done some good but 8 months behind schedule is inexcusable!
This is no doubt a very real part of the DDI portion of the cuts. However, Crimson Lancer is likely very correct, and some people are likely getting laid off on the development side due to errors almost entirely coming from the marketing department. Even if members of marketing are also getting laid off, you've gotta keep up appearances!
Off-topic
Note these passages:
Rong. Sadly, this is almost a plea for "please don't break & optimize this, because I really only intended it to be flavorful" right before, well, adding a bunch of free power to everybody.
Oi oi oi. I stopped at this one; there's probably more farther down the list. The article suggests classes that fit the storyline of the background, but they don't benefit at all from the primary advantage: having new skills added to their list of options. Instead, they get a bonus to those skills (which are generally already optimal for the class because they have the skill trained and the right stats for it), which puts them even farther ahead of players who are untrained and don't have those backgrounds.
The creativity is nice, but the mechanics and advice are all fail.
EDIT: Glanced ahead, and yep, it gets even worse. Noble Bred For War is made of so much fail that I don't know what to say. Weapon proficiency for a Warlord? Really, guy? Looks like I get to pick an off-beat background for my character instead of one that made sense so that I actually get a usable benefit out of it.
But power-gamers beware! You'll search in vain for significant advantage... Think of these backgrounds as aids to roleplaying, not the means to eke out an incremental advantage to a skill check.
Rong. Sadly, this is almost a plea for "please don't break & optimize this, because I really only intended it to be flavorful" right before, well, adding a bunch of free power to everybody.
Traveling Missionary
Benefit: ...add Religion to your class skill list...
Good Background: Cleric
Last of the Breed
Benefit: You add Endurance and Perception to your class skill list...
Good Background: Ranger
Cat Burglar
Benefit: You add Athletics and Thievery to your class skill list...
Good Background: Rogue
Political Rebel
Benefit: You add Diplomacy and Streetwise to your class skill list...
Good Background: Rogue
Oi oi oi. I stopped at this one; there's probably more farther down the list. The article suggests classes that fit the storyline of the background, but they don't benefit at all from the primary advantage: having new skills added to their list of options. Instead, they get a bonus to those skills (which are generally already optimal for the class because they have the skill trained and the right stats for it), which puts them even farther ahead of players who are untrained and don't have those backgrounds.
The creativity is nice, but the mechanics and advice are all fail.
EDIT: Glanced ahead, and yep, it gets even worse. Noble Bred For War is made of so much fail that I don't know what to say. Weapon proficiency for a Warlord? Really, guy? Looks like I get to pick an off-beat background for my character instead of one that made sense so that I actually get a usable benefit out of it.
There also isn't any LIMIT on the article. Noonan COMPLETELY focused on, "Please play this how I think you should be playing it, rather than how it's possible to play it," which is just Design Fail Rule #1. Take every Background? Sure, why not!
If this is on the DDI, can't they just go an errata it?
If this is on the DDI, can't they just go an errata it?
It's in one of the free issues of Dragon, and if Noonan is GONE (I'd rather they demote him, but whatever), we can only hope so.
Wait, what? Surely you're not talking about Characters of War, which was really, really good and followed an engineerable formula.
Agreed. Just finding that article made the DDI subscription worth it, specifically because it followed an easy-to-engineer formula. I use the Characters of War backgrounds in my current campaign, but the next one will see either setting-specific backgrounds or generic formulas with the caveat of "justify your choices in your backstory." I didn't even know Noonan was in wrote this. More points to him.
EDIT: I'm playing under the same "only pick one" rule that Noonan probably also took for granted. I didn't even realize this needed to be said.
It's in one of the free issues of Dragon, and if Noonan is GONE (I'd rather they demote him, but whatever), we can only hope so.
That far back, eh? I hardly think 1 correctable mistake like this is worth firing a man over. There must have been some other reason... Unless the pool of designers is so shallow they have to skim off the best to save money.
As for the suggestions...not adding the skill(s) to your list is not THAT big a deal, since you do get a free static bonus to said skill(s). Thus, if you want a higher focus in your existing specialty for your class, yeah, taking the Background that adds a free bonus to that skill is in fact a GREAT choice for just such a character. Who cares if you don't get those skills as class skills?
That far back, eh? I hardly think 1 correctable mistake like this is worth firing a man over. There must have been some other reason... Unless the pool of designers is so shallow they have to skim off the best to save money.
Exactly. It isn't worth firing him over, even if most of his statements seem to make him out to be an elitist son-of-a-***** who thinks he and ONLY HE knows what is best for ALLL of Roleplaying.
As I said, take him down a notch, but the guy's got some good ideas.
--
',: | I don't think I'd be so quick to trust the word of the PAIZO CEO without any OTHER sources to back her up...
Laying off Randy Buehler sounds HIGHLY suspicious.
This might be of interest.
i was hoping against hope it wasn't true...
',: | Excuse me if I don't trust a SINGLE SOURCE right off the bat.
ANNNND again, Hasbro is ruining yet ANOTHER of my favorite hobbies. Those ****ing ****-licking ***wipe mother ****ers. It's like EB taking over Gamespot all over again, *********. I truly hope they are arrested for being such absolute *****.
ANNNND again, Hasbro is ruining yet ANOTHER of my favorite hobbies. Those ****ing ****-licking ***wipe mother ****ers. It's like EB taking over Gamespot all over again, *********. I truly hope they are arrested for being such absolute *****.
Amen to that!
I think its to easy to blame Hasbro as they've owned WoTC since 99 or so. The buck stops at WoTC at the end of the day.
Whose the head of WotC right now? he should be fired for completely mismanaging 4E, DDI and D&D in general over the last year and a half or so.
I think its to easy to blame Hasbro as they've owned WoTC since 99 or so. The buck stops at WoTC at the end of the day.
Yeah, but they've been busy ruining MTG in the past decade or so. They've only recently caught up on turning DnD into ****, as well. I see they're well on their way, though.
Yeah, but they've been busy ruining MTG in the past decade or so. They've only recently caught up on turning DnD into ****, as well. I see they're well on their way, though.
Don't forget the Skirmish game!
If I was a Veep for a product/feature that completely failed to meet expectations; I'm pretty sure I would be expecting the two bobs to wonder what value I add to the company.
That said, I love 4e and don't get the hater-ade being passed around here.
I don't like the direction WoTC has been going in over multiple product lines and my income is lower now than a couple of years ago when I bought alot of 3.5 sourcebooks, minis, magic cards, dragon/dungeon, and I even bought the original d20 Star Wars Books.
Our group is spending very little on WotC product these days and we used to buy damn near anything they made across multiple product lines. Think I have been negativly inclined towards them when they pulled the plug on Dragon/Dungeon in dead tree format. Randy, Solice and Noonan are some names I'll miss.
',: | I don't think I'd be so quick to trust the word of the PAIZO CEO without any OTHER sources to back her up...
Laying off Randy Buehler sounds HIGHLY suspicious.
This is the stupidest I've heard in a lone time. Congratulations. Piazo and WotC maintain an amicable relationship, and have no malice between them. In fact Piazo sells WotC 4e books. The resentment to Piazo over pathfinder is felt only by the Kobolds that dogmatically hate everything which isn't 4e. The resentment is not returned by the fans of pathfinder either.
Anyways, as already pointed out, Dave Noonan confirmed that he has been laid off. I'm sure the other have been as well. They have my sympathies, especially in this time of economic hardship. I wish them all the best.
One has to wonder, though, what this means about 4e and how it's doing if two of it's biggest designers (Mr. Noonan and Mr. tweet) have been let go.
Good 3.5 sourcebook- PHB2, David Noonan
Bad 3.5 sourcebook - Complete Scoundral-Mike McArtor and F.Wesley Schneider (who???)
3rd ed Relams went down hill when Sean K Reynolds was laid off with only Eric L Boyd left as someone I liked who wrote decent material.
This is the stupidest I've heard in a lone time. Congratulations. Piazo and WotC maintain an amicable relationship, and have no malice between them. In fact Piazo sells WotC 4e books. The resentment to Piazo over pathfinder is felt only by the Kobolds that dogmatically hate everything which isn't 4e. The resentment is not returned by the fans of pathfinder either.
If you actually look at when that post was made, you will find it was long before Dave posted on ENWorld. When this thread first started, it was unknown if the rumor was true or not, Crimson Lancer was perfectly within his right to be skeptical.
One has to wonder, though, what this means about 4e and how it's doing if two of it's biggest designers (Mr. Noonan and Mr. tweet) have been let go.
Not well, I would suspect. Even if, as others have pointed out, these types of lay offs are common, there really is no excuse to fire some one so identified with D&D as Dave Noonan. As I and other's have mentioned, there may have been other problems that led to his being laid off which I dare not speculate on.
I suspect it will do a 3.5 and freelancers will be hired and eventualy 4th ed sourcebooks will suck just like the majority of the final 3.5 sourcebooks and 5th ed will come along. Might take a few years.
Good 3.5 sourcebook- PHB2, David Noonan
Bad 3.5 sourcebook - Complete Scoundral-Mike McArtor and F.Wesley Schneider (who???)
Not to deride one of my D&D heroes ('cause Dave is) but his name is on the cover of the Complete Divine, which was pound for pound, the weakest of the original 4 Complete books. Then again, his name is also on the Complete Warrior so I guess he breaks even there (and sky rockets with the PHB2).
Still, I just wanted to point out that there were bad books prior to 3.5's last 2 years.
For sure but towards the end of 3.5 good source books were the exception rather than the rule. Around 2005/2006 bad books were probably the exception rather than the rule. While the weakest of the first 4 complete books the Complete Divine was still alright and better than 3/4 of the last 4 complete books (I haven't read the complete champion).
I don't know, I own all the completes save Champion and Psionics and I have to say, I like all of them. Sure there was filler in the later 4 but that doesn't mean it was bad filler. Also the sheer number of PrCs and the awesome feats in Complete Scoundrel would have to count for something (because it is the best of the later 4 Completes).
At any rate, I have to agree with you. WotC went down hill at the end of 3.5, which is sad because the system was (and remains) awesome. I'm glad I own some of Dave's best, and worst, work. I treasure them all!
Um... I'm not sure if I'm alone on this but I thought pretty much every fluff Eberron book melted faces. Not just faces, but whole bodies.
I LOVE the fluff of Eberron. Its the warmest best fluff in all of Fluffington!
Why was Dave Noonan laid-off? Why Solice? Why Randy Buehler? Stacy Longstreet? Jonathan Tweet?
Here's the formula:
Bad economy => LayoffsThat's all we know, and it's probably all we'll ever really know. More importantly, it's all the matters. In the economy practically every company is laying folks off. There's no way to know why WotC picked these particular individuals over others, but it's not fair to say WotC has done wrong by laying anyone off.
Let's grow up about this, shall we?
I started this thread three hours ago, and it's already waaayyy off-topic. Why the hate, everyone?
Why was Dave Noonan laid-off? Why Solice? Why Randy Buehler? Stacy Longstreet? Jonathan Tweet?
Here's the formula:Bad economy => Layoffs
That's all we know, and it's probably all we'll ever really know. More importantly, it's all the matters. In the economy practically every company is laying folks off. There's no way to know why WotC picked these particular individuals over others, but it's not fair to say WotC has done wrong by laying anyone off.
Let's grow up about this, shall we?
If WotC/Hasbro really wanted to save money then they would have
- Eliminated the DDI
- Eliminated jobs that centered around the DDI
- Re-license Dragon & Dungeon as well as any campaign settings 3rd parties may want
- Fire their marketing team and hire half as many new people
That would have saved money and probably earned some much needed cash. I don't believe this round of lay offs were totally due to the economy. There is most likely many other reasons we are not, and will not, be privy to.
If you actually look at when that post was made, you will find it was long before Dave posted on ENWorld. When this thread first started, it was unknown if the rumor was true or not, Crimson Lancer was perfectly within his right to be skeptical.
It may be in his rights to be skeptical, or anything else for that matter, but implying Lisa was starting some anti 4e rumor is just plain stupid.
It may be in his rights to be skeptical, or anything else for that matter, but implying Lisa was starting some anti 4e rumor is just plain stupid.
Oh, sorry, I really wasn't trying to say that. I was simply incredulous, and was sure her sources HAD to be wrong/over-exaggerating. My apologies.
Oh, sorry, I really wasn't trying to say that. I was simply incredulous, and was sure her sources HAD to be wrong/over-exaggerating. My apologies.
Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying.
It may be in his rights to be skeptical, or anything else for that matter, but implying Lisa was starting some anti 4e rumor is just plain stupid.
I agree completely with the above. As a sort of competitor (things seem pretty amicable between WotC and Paizo IMO as well), Paizo has no interest in being the source of hurtful rumors. Starting some sort of anti-4e rumor would be at least a little dumb.
One has to wonder, though, what this means about 4e and how it's doing if two of it's biggest designers (Mr. Noonan and Mr. tweet) have been let go.
So I wonder why the same person who said the first thing typed this! Either rumor-mongering is good or it's bad
Anyway, the entire global economy is boned. You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to figure out the actual cause of layoffs here or elsewhere.
No hard feelings toward anyone here, evil corporations included. My best wishes to those who are searching for jobs. I hope there was at least a decent severance package for the folks who were let go
I started this thread three hours ago, and it's already waaayyy off-topic. Why the hate, everyone?
Why was Dave Noonan laid-off? Why Solice? Why Randy Buehler? Stacy Longstreet? Jonathan Tweet?
Here's the formula:Bad economy => Layoffs
That's all we know, and it's probably all we'll ever really know. More importantly, it's all the matters. In the economy practically every company is laying folks off. There's no way to know why WotC picked these particular individuals over others, but it's not fair to say WotC has done wrong by laying anyone off.
Let's grow up about this, shall we?
That's bull. The economy has been bad for a year now and counting. The worst economic crisis was right after 9/11 and they drop kicked bad rubbish that year not decent designers. However some of the guys they dropped this time were heavy into 3.5 and with 4E they may have been trying to clean house. Hasbro has taken some hits but they are still a lively company. WOTC is one of the few brands making money in Hasbro. This new edition should have broken sales records if it was as good as people say it is. They are buying 300 and 400 dollar video game machines why not 40 dlllar books?
It comes down to three things.
1. Poor capitalization of marketing from geek/nerd boom of the mid 2000's (we are seeing a swing back to jock/frat)
2. No core guidebook that has a female lead or a feminine feel or anything to do with women--the first of the 80's kids who played videogames turned 20 in 2000 this decade should have seen a boom in girl gamers and it did, in every group except D&D RP. Even online RPG's have seen a rapid increase in female gamers which traditionally back in the days of ultima were all men. No connection to women equals no connection to modernity.
3. Lack of a green movement within the game. Specifically the rpg uses opaper products from China, inks from china, produces plastic miniatures and has not had a green initiative yet. Hasbro as a global toy and game company needs it's board game group to take the lead on green initiatives and they have not done so yet. That failure is causing a fracture within the company. Hasbro has yet to capitalize on Mattel's lead toys incident and needs it's most environmentally safe products to take the initiative to going green. More than that within the game itself there lacks any connection to modern environementalism, they went so far as to remove the druids from the basic set, and that can be seen as a sign that D&D is growing conservative and stagnant.
If you think I am wrong about this, think about the number one T-shirt found on gamer girlz and recently people like Paris Hilton (hint:I heart nerds). Gamer girls are the most powerful portion of the new gaming culture feeding the recent frenzy of gamemarketing representing nearly half of all WOW sales and more than half of the "real life" games players like second life. They also increasingly are found to play indie games and are being employed more regularly in the industry. However the women at WoTC are not attracting the gamer girlz that I suspect they were expected to bring and thus you have a few who are being pulled from the shelves. Lastly environmentalism is much bigger than most people think. Recycling and green initiatives employ more people in ou country than any other industry. Of the top three charities that recieved money last year 1 of them was a green initiative. And the environment was number two in the issues for voters this election behind economy. WOTC needs to change it's business practices before it even considers changing it's product
That's bull. The economy has been bad for a year now and counting. The worst economic crisis was right after 9/11 and they drop kicked bad rubbish that year not decent designers. However some of the guys they dropped this time were heavy into 3.5 and with 4E they may have been trying to clean house. Hasbro has taken some hits but they are still a lively company. WOTC is one of the few brands making money in Hasbro. This new edition should have broken sales records if it was as good as people say it is. They are buying 300 and 400 dollar video game machines why not 40 dlllar books?
It comes down to three things.
1. Poor capitalization of marketing from geek/nerd boom of the mid 2000's (we are seeing a swing back to jock/frat)
2. No core guidebook that has a female lead or a feminine feel or anything to do with women--the first of the 80's kids who played videogames turned 20 in 2000 this decade should have seen a boom in girl gamers and it did, in every group except D&D RP. Even online RPG's have seen a rapid increase in female gamers which traditionally back in the days of ultima were all men. No connection to women equals no connection to modernity.
3. Lack of a green movement within the game. Specifically the rpg uses opaper products from China, inks from china, produces plastic miniatures and has not had a green initiative yet. Hasbro as a global toy and game company needs it's board game group to take the lead on green initiatives and they have not done so yet. That failure is causing a fracture within the company. Hasbro has yet to capitalize on Mattel's lead toys incident and needs it's most environmentally safe products to take the initiative to going green. More than that within the game itself there lacks any connection to modern environementalism, they went so far as to remove the druids from the basic set, and that can be seen as a sign that D&D is growing conservative and stagnant.
If you think I am wrong about this, think about the number one T-shirt found on gamer girlz and recently people like Paris Hilton (hint:I heart nerds). Gamer girls are the most powerful portion of the new gaming culture feeding the recent frenzy of gamemarketing representing nearly half of all WOW sales and more than half of the "real life" games players like second life. They also increasingly are found to play indie games and are being employed more regularly in the industry. However the women at WoTC are not attracting the gamer girlz that I suspect they were expected to bring and thus you have a few who are being pulled from the shelves. Lastly environmentalism is much bigger than most people think. Recycling and green initiatives employ more people in ou country than any other industry. Of the top three charities that recieved money last year 1 of them was a green initiative. And the environment was number two in the issues for voters this election behind economy. WOTC needs to change it's business practices before it even considers changing it's product
one can argue over the import .. or lack there of of the green movement but I am quite sure that this had nothing to do with the lay offs. also the enviroment was not #2 on issues for voters, it was a lot lower the top issues were,
economy, gas & war
WotC_Dave
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 24
Thanks for the kind words, folks. They mean a great deal. And my wife was reading over my shoulder, and they cheered her up _immensely_.
I can confirm the essential truth of what's been reported, and I am indeed one of the ones let go today. When you're in the midst of the process, you don't really get a sense of what's going on elsewhere in the building. Thus I didn't know some of the names until I read them here. They're quality people. In a weird way, I'm proud to be among them. (I'd rather be employed, sure, but you take the solace you can at a moment like this.)
I'll leave the prognosticating and "...but what does this MEAN?!?" stuff to others. I think the game is in good shape--and I think it's in good hands. In my 10 years at Wizards, I survived a lot of these layoffs--including cuts deeper than this. More to the point for you guys, the _game_ survived deeper cuts than this.
Maybe I didn't say this enough when I was part of "the Man," but the ENWorld community is absolutely terrific. The level of discourse here continues to be top-notch, and there's always an interesting thread sitting right there, begging to be read. But if you're already a regular here, you've already figured that out, huh?
--David Noonan, who should probably get a new user name.
And I predict that many people will rush to rationalize the DDI layoffs as something other than indicative of its problems thus far.
I did notice that and do find it troubling. Perhaps WotC will simply refund the money left on subscriptions and cancel the whole endeavour due to the difficulty the team has had in getting it out in a timely manner, and/or because of the financial crisis.
I'm hoping they'll simply hire new people to replace them and actually get that ship steering towards a completed product, but it could be they judge they've put too much money into it and that its too speculative to put any more in.
Hmmm...are they making a profit? Yes!
Citation Needed. Seriously, have they actually said they're making a profit from DDI?
Let's grow up about this, shall we?
I think it makes sense to be concerned about DDI. They've had trouble getting DDI out the door. They're finally making some headway with the Character Builder released, but they've also got a pretty lean issue for Dragon this month, meaning the entire process still has yet to be perfected.
I don't think they'll do a better job with less people.
The list to me looks like everyone connected to DDI
(Who deserve to get the axe then in my book.)
If it had been someone like Mearls, Collins or Williams I'd be worried.
This is probably them just gettting ready to put an Axe through DDI's face.
Good riddance to DDI.
Sucks for Noonan, since he did stuff I like (like the Phb2 in 3.5) but other than that I couldn't care less.
That's bull. The economy has been bad for a year now and counting. The worst economic crisis was right after 9/11 and they drop kicked bad rubbish that year not decent designers. However some of the guys they dropped this time were heavy into 3.5 and with 4E they may have been trying to clean house. Hasbro has taken some hits but they are still a lively company. WOTC is one of the few brands making money in Hasbro. This new edition should have broken sales records if it was as good as people say it is. They are buying 300 and 400 dollar video game machines why not 40 dlllar books?
It comes down to three things.
1. Poor capitalization of marketing from geek/nerd boom of the mid 2000's (we are seeing a swing back to jock/frat)
2. No core guidebook that has a female lead or a feminine feel or anything to do with women--the first of the 80's kids who played videogames turned 20 in 2000 this decade should have seen a boom in girl gamers and it did, in every group except D&D RP. Even online RPG's have seen a rapid increase in female gamers which traditionally back in the days of ultima were all men. No connection to women equals no connection to modernity.
3. Lack of a green movement within the game. Specifically the rpg uses opaper products from China, inks from china, produces plastic miniatures and has not had a green initiative yet. Hasbro as a global toy and game company needs it's board game group to take the lead on green initiatives and they have not done so yet. That failure is causing a fracture within the company. Hasbro has yet to capitalize on Mattel's lead toys incident and needs it's most environmentally safe products to take the initiative to going green. More than that within the game itself there lacks any connection to modern environementalism, they went so far as to remove the druids from the basic set, and that can be seen as a sign that D&D is growing conservative and stagnant.
If you think I am wrong about this, think about the number one T-shirt found on gamer girlz and recently people like Paris Hilton (hint:I heart nerds). Gamer girls are the most powerful portion of the new gaming culture feeding the recent frenzy of gamemarketing representing nearly half of all WOW sales and more than half of the "real life" games players like second life. They also increasingly are found to play indie games and are being employed more regularly in the industry. However the women at WoTC are not attracting the gamer girlz that I suspect they were expected to bring and thus you have a few who are being pulled from the shelves. Lastly environmentalism is much bigger than most people think. Recycling and green initiatives employ more people in ou country than any other industry. Of the top three charities that recieved money last year 1 of them was a green initiative. And the environment was number two in the issues for voters this election behind economy. WOTC needs to change it's business practices before it even considers changing it's product
I think you're thinking with your heart rather than your head. Its not that your points aren't valid, it's that you're not applying them rationally.
You're right, the economy has sucked for a while now. However, a year ago, nobody knew whether or not it was still going to suck a year later. Additionally, a year ago WotC was still in the middle of a major design and development phase, creating 4E; now that the groundwork has been laid for this edition, they're moving to a freelance based model. Guess what? The made a similar move following the release of 3E.
Breaking sales records? I heard that 4E already did, last June. However, I have no solid source on that, nor do I suspect you do either.
As for your other concerns, I agree that it's possible these factors are significantly affecting WotC's business. However, you seen the think that they're operating as a soulless, hungry corporate entity, complete out of touch with their consumers, and on that point I firmly disagree; anecdotally, I have encountered far more people who, after experiencing 4E, find it to be what they are looking for in a D&D game than not. Pretending that 4E is unpopular doesn't make it true.
What do these layoffs mean for 4E and D&DI? As I said before, it's impossible to say; we simply haven't got enough information at this point. (We've got maybe 20% of the story, the rest is speculation.)
I asked before, and I'm asking again: Shall we be reasonable?
And I predict that many people will rush to rationalize the DDI layoffs as something other than indicative of its problems thus far.
Like the economy? What fools.
It is never a good time to get laid off, and this period is particularly nasty. I hope that the designers (whose names we know) and the other back-scenes workers (whose names we may not) have some ability to have at least a little time for themselves and family, and then are successful in finding a new home for their talents.
Wishing DDI dead or suggesting naïve marketing strategies is hopefully just a knee-jerk reaction form upset people. I hope DDI works and that it enables Wizards to gain a million subscribers who provide a solid dependable core of cash so they can re-hire people of talent like Dave, Jonathan and the others. If it fails, there is no plan that I know of that will suppot long-term viability for a large company except selling more and more books that get nichier and nichier until the product line collapses and needs restarting. AD&D, 3.5, Rolemaster, World of Darkness, ... -- it's the de facto model for any company even trying to get large. Steve Jackson Games has avoided it by being mostly a board game company now, but otherwise the business model seems to be as indicated. I *strongly* hope someone like Wizards can break out of that model.
I have a copy of Everway that sits right beside my D&D collection (think alphabetical), and I will never get rid of it as it represents a fundamental difference in thinking. Designers like Tweet may be too radical for what D&D needs now, but I would hope that there is a place for them, and I wish them all the best in finding that place.
- Graham
We will all still game on with your past D&D contributions in our games for sure. So don't take it poorly. Sometimes the worst ends that life has to offer lead to the best beginnings.
So don't sweat it. Leaving a part of life that you had grown comfortable with is in many ways like having your favorite character in a long running game finally meeting their demise. It sucks, and you miss playing the character. But the best moments of that character will come up for years when you and your loved ones get to rambling on about it. So its never really a waste to play the game, even when the things you have invested so much of yourself finally draw to a close.
But the death of one character always, ends with the birth of a new one. So keep your head up, reroll, and get back to it, if this is what you are passionate about. We will all be watching to see whose game you decide to set your dice bag at.
So take a break, and have a good holiday. Then after you folks have had some time to reflect, then go go play in someone elses game (or hell start a game of your own ;)). And be sure to let us know where you folks land, so we can check out what you will be working on.
Don't waste your time on this earth worrying about big stuff that is out of your control, its the small details that fill in the cracks and make life worth looking at. My fondest wishes go out to those who will be starting new careers.
love,
malkav
Originally Posted by Crimson Lancer
Hmmm...are they making a profit? Yes!
Citation Needed. Seriously, have they actually said they're making a profit from DDI?
No. In fact in Hasbro's last quarterly filing they had to admit that their WotC-division's digital initiatives had lost tons of money and they couldn't hide it anymore. (The "digital iniatives" thing included Gleemax, M:tG Online, and D&D Insider)
It was bad enough to negatively visibly affect the bottom line of the entire company.
Very embarassing for WotC and Hasbro and it prompted investor and analyst questions about WTF was going on.
The numbers reflect that WotC is sucking money away from more profitable endeavors of Hasbro's.
It would be smart to hang onto the profitable IPs (Magic) and sell of the pork that's dragging the company down (D&D and its related product lines). In this economy, no one can afford to keep a failing product going out a sense of obligation or tradition.
D&D is a failing product, at this stage - a sinkhole for money that no one can afford to lose. Previously untouchable companies are going under en masse. The auto industry, formerly a untouchable economic juggernaut, is begging for handouts.
In this scenario, it doesn't make any sense for Hasbro to keep the D&D Insider 'experiment' alive a moment longer.
Oh, R_C, you silly scamp, you. Way to lump D&D itself, consistently in the top 100 on Amazon, mind you, with the digital team. Projection and conflation ftl! Did you not notice that the digital team also includes Magic Online? I would wager that is a sizable portion of the money sink, especially with all the money being dumped into MO: 3.0. Gleemax was also a horrible failure. That the DDI team is lagging far behind projected release schedules is not helping, at all. Thus, the axe.None of that, however, is indicative of D&D itself being, as you put it, "a failing product...a sinkhole for money".
First, D&D is not a failing product at this stage. The digital aspects of it are money-sinks - which makes sense, given that they've been all development and no payoff. Those two things? Different. It's like saying "Magic is a failing product, because Magic:Online is losing money." Doesn't follow.
Second, auto industry is a bad example of "previously untouchable" companies. They have been touched in the past. They've been on the brink of collapse in the past, and there's been talk of it for years.
It's too bad to hear about WotC laying folks off, but it's not really a surprise. I was sort of surprised to hear Solice, just because she hasn't been dealing with the web part of things for that long. They better watch out - no one is going to want that position if they keep kicking them out of the company.
just some food for thought.
I wish the man the best of luck in finding a new job in a non-gaming industry.
The Auto industry has been dying over the last nine years.
just some food for thought.
Aspects of it nearly "died" in the late 70's as well.
It's just a terrible example of an "untouchable" industry.
As an aside: private corporate jets to a congressional hearing to beg for money? Classy. Selling off your fleets of private corporate luxury jets? Even classier.
. The auto industry, formerly a untouchable economic juggernaut, is begging for handouts.
Umm, in what universe has the auto industry not been on life support for the last 30 years?
Seriously. Next you'll be saying that the american steel industry is doing great.
For our next trip of Time Warp Special he'll be telling us we're Commy scum because we buy from Japan.
As hilariously irrational as that sounds... some guy actually called into the radio and said exactly that. I couldn't help but laugh. A lot.
Seriously. Next you'll be saying that the american steel industry is doing great.
Well, since the recent buyout from Carnegie...
So I wonder why the same person who said the first thing typed this! Either rumor-mongering is good or it's bad
Anyway, the entire global economy is boned. You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to figure out the actual cause of layoffs here or elsewhere.
I'm not trying to start a 4e doom and gloom rumor. I just find it odd, that the D&D devision is being downsized, when supposedly it is doing so well. I mean wasn't 4e one of the biggest successes ever, selling out of 3 print runs? Seems odd that they'd be getting rid of talent when the product line is proforming better then everyone's wildest dreams.
It would be smart to hang onto the profitable IPs (Magic) and sell of the pork that's dragging the company down (D&D and its related product lines). In this economy, no one can afford to keep a failing product going out a sense of obligation or tradition.
Actually during an ecomonic down turn is the worst time to sell off assists. Everything is so depriated in value that you end up taking a huge loss. Waiting untill things pick up a bit will make you far more money. The smart thing to do in this case would be to shelve unperforming lines and IPs untill the ecomony picks up - say 2-3 years, and then sell them off. Buy low and sell high, and all that.
For our next trip of Time Warp Special he'll be telling us we're Commy scum because we buy from Japan.
not that it's relevent but up untill very recently Japan ran a very communist style ecomony and government. They were technically a parlimentary democracy, but had one dominate party for much of the last 50 years, they also had socialized medicine and education. And it was expected that companies offered life time contracts to their employees, and very generouse retirement packages as well taking care of all family needs, for life. Even more important to note is that the business culture of Japan, up untill the late 1990s did not emphasize competition - unlike the American culture - instead emphasizing cooperative team work. And, more to the point, many (read most) companies in Japan were closely tied to each other and variouse branches of the government.
Like the economy? What fools.
You earned it, G.
True, but that doesn't make us commy bastards for buying though :P (note there's alot of good policy there that you mentioned that America certainly needs to learn from)
If not then I wish them all the best, and would hope to find their work in the future. They have earned my trust and respect and I will happily purchase their works no matter the company they end up with.
Thank you all for everything you have done and I wish you all the best.
Very glad to see all the posts commiserating this loss and few of them attacking the company. The RPG business is a cruel mistress: it seems a harsh tradition that whenever a new edition of D&D is released, the writers of the previous editions (Gygax, David "Zeb" Cook, Cook/Tweet/Williams) are no longer around.
I think you're thinking with your heart rather than your head. Its not that your points aren't valid, it's that you're not applying them rationally.
When I am talking business I am talking as a fiscal conservative with ten years of growing my own business. I am also talking as a shareholder of Hasbro as a corporation. I don't talk with my heart. Bad business decisions do not make sound fiscal policy. If I was talking with my heart I would be making lame excuses about DDI or exclaiming how much I like or dislike 4.0. When it comes to rational thinking I have to make decisions like this all the time so when I see a company who owns a product that I enjoy make bad business decisions I cringe and wonder who is in charge (not at Hasbro because they don't make that many business decisions for wizards, which is why I could care less about Hasbro)
You're right, the economy has sucked for a while now. However, a year ago, nobody knew whether or not it was still going to suck a year later. Additionally, a year ago WotC was still in the middle of a major design and development phase, creating 4E; now that the groundwork has been laid for this edition, they're moving to a freelance based model. Guess what? The made a similar move following the release of 3E.
Note: this freelance model required an eventual increase in in-house designers, so it was not that great of a model.
Note Secondus: Any company worth their salt could see the recession coming three years back, and knew it would last a minimum of 6 months. They just didn't know the when until January 2008.
But the business decision in 2000 had a lot more to do with the tanking economy then. We had recessionary numbers right when they were releasing 3.0 and then 9/11 pretty much tanked everyones sales. The reason they were able to use the freelance model previously was because they had to hire loads of new designers prior to the release of 3.0 to help design the game with the understanding that many of them probably would not keep their jobs (well WOTC understood that, I doubt the designers did). However they did not hire a bunch of designers recently. They are cutting ties to long term job holders. There's a big difference between cutting the new guys who were hired for a specific project and cutting a long time designer or developer.
Breaking sales records? I heard that 4E already did, last June. However, I have no solid source on that, nor do I suspect you do either.
At the Hasbro meeting I was told that WOTC broke previous monetary sales records not that they broke previous item sales. They should have broken both if the product was one that was good enough to be desired by an overwhelming number of previous buyers as well as original buyers new to the system. WOW's sale records increased in both, Wii beat all previous nintendo sales records, Playstation 3 did not, xbox 360 broke both, and at least three board game companies did so this year. While I am not arguing that 4.0 is the greatest thing ever or that it is complete meh, the numbers do not reflect the kind of surge I think they were expecting, which in the eyes of Corporate America is synonymous with failure. They don't care if you saw black and not red, if you do not meet projections it is considered a failure (which is why I am not part of corporate America and prefer to be a small bvusinessman, I like to break open champagne when I have twelve months straight of black, corporate America gets angry because it's the wrong shade of black, that never made sense to me)
As for your other concerns, I agree that it's possible these factors are significantly affecting WotC's business. However, you seen the think that they're operating as a soulless, hungry corporate entity, complete out of touch with their consumers, and on that point I firmly disagree; anecdotally, I have encountered far more people who, after experiencing 4E, find it to be what they are looking for in a D&D game than not. Pretending that 4E is unpopular doesn't make it true.
Yeah thanks for putting words in my mouth, next time can I have a sandwhich instead?
Again this has nothing to do with Hasbro, it has everything to do with bad business decisions, not corporate greed. One of those bad business decisions may have been the design and implementation of 4.0 if a different design could have gotten them more sales, that is a business axiom. If the design of your product meets the consumers approval but a different design would win greater approval then you go with the different design. I however am not making that claim because I don't know what other designs were suggested. For WOTC the problem is that they projected huge sales but failed to fulfill even though their sales were stellar, that shakes stockholder confidence in a company more than being in the red does when you predict you will be in the red.
What do these layoffs mean for 4E and D&DI? As I said before, it's impossible to say; we simply haven't got enough information at this point. (We've got maybe 20% of the story, the rest is speculation.)
Agreed, but we will never know the rest of the story because we are talking about a privately held firm that is not publicly traded.
one can argue over the import .. or lack there of of the green movement but I am quite sure that this had nothing to do with the lay offs. also the enviroment was not #2 on issues for voters, it was a lot lower the top issues were,
economy, gas & war
The voters top issues were Economy 30%, Energy 15%, and War15% (gas as part of energy). A predominant facet of that Energy policy was pursuing green energy and alternative energy sources for cars, in fact green energy and alternative fuels represented 80% of the topics discussed. You add that 80%to health concerns (40% concerning environmental impact on health like asthma, 30% on insurance and the rest on foreign product concerns due to environmentally unsound practices), climate change (which was separate from environment) and the environment... I think you get the picture. Environment was the unspoken agenda.
If staying afloat was their sole interest, they should have just cut DnD off completely, or shelved it. Laying off some of their most reliable, original, and creative talent to save money is like cutting off your arms to reduce body fat. It's stupid. Just slit your wrists and be done with it. You're obviously going to be dead fairly soon, anyway, so why prolong the inevitable? :raincloud
That's the silliest suggestion I've heard in a long time. You would seriously rather they scrap D&D altogether than lay off 2 designers? How would that be better?
That's the silliest suggestion I've heard in a long time. You would seriously rather they scrap D&D altogether than lay off 2 designers? How would that be better?
Of course it wouldn't be. My point is that they're being completely illogical about this. I just cannot fathom why they thought this was a good idea. Do they really have so many good designers that they can afford to just toss some of the hardest-working ones out the window with no real warning? I just don't see how they're going to replace those people with anyone who will do a better job, therefore guaranteeing them a profitable quarter. Even worse is the effect completely new designers may have on 4E.
FWIW, Tweet worked on DDI this go-around.
Yeah, as some other people have definitely pointed out, it's the DDI team that's getting the can. I guess that may make sense, but we all know Solice did her job excellently, Randy Buehler built MTGO from the ground up, and Noonan and Tweet have a good history of original and intelligent design. It just boggles my mind.
The community manager used to be a WizO -- WizO_The_Hutt, I think?
Of course it wouldn't be. My point is that they're being completely illogical about this. I just cannot fathom why they thought this was a good idea. Do they really have so many good designers that they can afford to just toss some of the hardest-working ones out the window with no real warning? I just don't see how they're going to replace those people with anyone who will do a better job, therefore guaranteeing them a profitable quarter. Even worse is the effect completely new designers may have on 4E.
In business, you're only as good as your last project.
Do they really have so many good designers that they can afford to just toss some of the hardest-working ones out the window with no real warning?
No, but interesting use of the word "afford". Clearly, they cannot afford to KEEP that many good designers on payroll. The money just isn't there, and someone needed to get sent home, I assume.
As someone pointed out, they did similar things after 3.0 and 3.5 came out, and a lot of the people laid off ended up working for WotC as freelancers shortly after.
I'm not trying to start a 4e doom and gloom rumor. I just find it odd, that the D&D devision is being downsized, when supposedly it is doing so well. I mean wasn't 4e one of the biggest successes ever, selling out of 3 print runs? Seems odd that they'd be getting rid of talent when the product line is proforming better then everyone's wildest dreams.
I don't know if it has been brought up yet in this thread, but I haven't noticed it, so I assume that it hasn't. Layoffs after a major release are fairly common in the game industry (both tabletop and video gaming). The reason for this is that when a major release is planned, the company hires additional employees to work full time on the project and get it off of the ground. Once the product is launched, any unnecessary employees are cut. In the roleplaying game industry, they are often then hired as freelance writers for specific projects. Personally, I was surprised they didn't scale back any D&D staff during the last round of cuts.
Obviously, the economy isn't helping the situation and has made it even more necessary than it might have been otherwise. The digital department's cuts are more likely performance related. Gleemax tanked. Hard. It ate up a lot of resources and never saw any ROI. Even if Solice pulled it together in the end and patched everything up, she was hired as a community liaison for a project that doesn't exist anymore. DDI is just beginning to see ROI, but is clearly running behind schedule. The people who call the shots in big companies tend not to look favorably when one project just tanked and another is grossly behind schedule. Even if the people in charge are doing their best, if they aren't meeting expectations, they aren't going to last. No matter how unreal those expectations might be.
not that it's relevent but up untill very recently Japan ran a very communist style ecomony and government. They were technically a parlimentary democracy, but had one dominate party for much of the last 50 years, they also had socialized medicine and education. And it was expected that companies offered life time contracts to their employees, and very generouse retirement packages as well taking care of all family needs, for life. Even more important to note is that the business culture of Japan, up untill the late 1990s did not emphasize competition - unlike the American culture - instead emphasizing cooperative team work. And, more to the point, many (read most) companies in Japan were closely tied to each other and variouse branches of the government.
There is a lot wrong with this paragraph, but this is neither the time nor the place to really get into it. Long story short, before 1995 there was single party domination in the Japanese government, but it was from the LDP... a center-right party. The specific examples of "communist principles" you have cited (veneration for elders, importance of education, cooperative teamwork, 'clannish' social structures, etc) are the result of common cultural influences such as religion and historical development, rather than being some sort of artificial political or economic construct. Anyways... that is a tangent that is probably best left alone. If it needs to be discussed, there are message boards for that kind of thing elsewhere on the interwebz.
The fact of the matter is, the economy is in the tank and has been for a while. Big surprise that WOTC is following suit with mmany other companies and laying off people.
Yes, high-profile people get laid off just as quickly as grunts.
Yes, it happens all the time. Top-dollar employees are actually many times some of the first to go, despite what I'm sure you've heard.
Yes, the people involved can find jobs. Hopefully. I've been out of work myself for a while now.
To the rest of Wizards: keep on rockin'.
And the rest of you, stop claiming this is 4th edition's fault.
But classlessly using the misfortune of others is the perfect way to grind that axe!
Whether it's an edition's 'fault' is hard to say, but the official source confirms the layoffs are due to the failure that is DDI's subscription rate, and the poor sales of all splatbooks (anything after the core 3, which did sell well). So, while the core 3 did well, DDI and all subsequent products are tanking - not what the suits in the boardrooms were hoping for, by a long shot.
Really? The layoffs are due to DDI subscription rates and poor sales of splatbooks, in particular? You've got a quote for that? I just looked through the entire ENWorld thread with Dave Noonan (WotC_Dave), and here is all he said:
Thanks for the kind words, folks. They mean a great deal. And my wife was reading over my shoulder, and they cheered her up _immensely_.
I can confirm the essential truth of what's been reported, and I am indeed one of the ones let go today. When you're in the midst of the process, you don't really get a sense of what's going on elsewhere in the building. Thus I didn't know some of the names until I read them here. They're quality people. In a weird way, I'm proud to be among them. (I'd rather be employed, sure, but you take the solace you can at a moment like this.)
I'll leave the prognosticating and "...but what does this MEAN?!?" stuff to others. I think the game is in good shape--and I think it's in good hands. In my 10 years at Wizards, I survived a lot of these layoffs--including cuts deeper than this. More to the point for you guys, the _game_ survived deeper cuts than this.
Maybe I didn't say this enough when I was part of "the Man," but the ENWorld community is absolutely terrific. The level of discourse here continues to be top-notch, and there's always an interesting thread sitting right there, begging to be read. But if you're already a regular here, you've already figured that out, huh?
--David Noonan, who should probably get a new user name.
And here is the list of employees laid off:
Randy Buehler (VP of digital gaming)
Andrew Finch (director of digital games)
Stacy Longstreet (senior art director)
Julia Martin (editor)
William Meyers (creative manager, digital design)
Dave Noonan (game designer)
Jennifer Paige (online community manager)
Jennifer Powers (marketing)
Jonathan Tweet (game designer)
Yes, the digital section got cut. DDI delays are likely part of it. This does NOT explicitly state that it is due to poor subscription rates. There is also the failure of Gleemax and those wasted resources. Magic Online numbers are also a virtual unknown, and money has been going into MtGO 3.0 for quite some time now. Again, do you have specifics stating that this is due to DDI, subscription rates, and splatbook sales, or
Is there any kind of official statement? I wouldn't expect one for something like this...
I wouldn't either. Companies make cutbacks all the time after a product release, particularly gaming companies, as pointed out above. This is just run-of-the-mill operations for your average large company.
How can they fire Dave Noonan? He's awesome! How can they justify firing so many big names? I hope they all find better jobs at a more loving company.
Green Ronin and White Wolf. 'Nuff said.
DDi is also failing, though the mag subs are finally getting some income in for the thing (however undeserved it may be). The price needs to stay at the current rate, preferably at the price that is offered for the one year discount for anyone for any amount of time, instead of the hiked up monthly. Hopefully this will be looked at by whomever is left in the offices.
I have always maintained that 4th edition came out to soon, though the product that is out now is still a good product. I believe it could have been better, with wealth not being a balancing factor, skills being more than a port of the theatrical system in SaGa, Magical Items having a better resell value and worth making (Instead of being costly to make and less to sell), and having the gnome in the first books instead of the out of place Tiefling. However, I don't believe this latest role call of pink slips was the fault of 4th edition failures or slump in sales. It is instead a simple axe hitting on random employees, at least in my mind.
The question now is, what happens now. DDi has floundered because of lack of development time and perhaps the lack of personnel on the project. It needs help, and possibly a new look on how it is implemented. The Massive Online Role Playing Games that the subscription is based on is interactive and continuous, while DDi is not. It is an aid for the table top game, but is being billed as something else, something that it is not.
The other side of the coin is the game itself. Eberron setting needs out as soon as possible, and there are a lot of crying over Psionics, but it looks to be 2 years away. That needs changed. Though I think 4.5 is coming, and is needed, Wizards needs to think seriously about not doing it, working instead on the next edition and taking the flaws I mentioned above and others and doing away/fixing them there.
Sorry you guys lost your jobs. I can hope that Wizards will do well without you, but they certainly will miss your input. Perhaps it will be as was mentioned before, and some will be hired as freelance writers. One can only hope.
Last question, who is taking over for Solice now that she is gone?
The ultimate reason, always, is money. No companies are doing well right now, and all are having to cut services or employees. We've already seen shrinkage of services provided or developed, especially in the digital initiatives realm, so this was the logical next step. Tragically, WotC is not immune to the financial hardships plaguing the rest of the country. In fact, with people tightening the belt, WotC and 4e books may have been hit harder than many of the other industries suffering out there.
I'm sure revenue is down (hobbies are technically a luxury - the first thing people set aside when the budget gets tight) and that necessitated layoffs. I don't know much about Dave Noonan or Jonathan Tweet, really, except for those are two names I recognize. And if I recognize a designers name, that means at some point, somewhere, they must have done something worth noticing. Dave Noonan especially seemed quite involved, and it seems strange to me they'd let him go. But, like I said, I don't actually know the specifics of what he's done (except some podcasts), so maybe there's a good reason.
Still, why not fire some unknowns instead of high-profile designers and community representatives? It's bound to put a bad taste in some people's mouths.
Laying off Tweet makes me think of when the Oilers traded Wayne Gretsky...
Um... I'm not sure if I'm alone on this but I thought pretty much every fluff Eberron book melted faces. Not just faces, but whole bodies.
Word.
Is there any kind of official statement? I wouldn't expect one for something like this...
No, there isn't. Liars lie. Go figure.
the official source confirms the layoffs are due to .... the poor sales of all splatbooks
Citation needed.
No, there isn't. Liars lie. Go figure.
Oh yes, it's all a lie... [Edit: I say this on the assumption the previous poster assumed the layoffs were a lie, not that the layoffs were a result of a specific thing; correct me if I'm wrong there]
As reported here
Reached for comment by ICv2, a WotC spokesperson noted, “Wizards of the Coast consolidated its digital game organizations to streamline execution of digital growth strategies for core brands.”
Wizards of the Coast President Greg Leeds also weighed in. “Consolidating internal resources coupled with improved outsourcing allows us to gain efficiencies in executing against our major digital initiatives Magic Online and D&D Insider,” he said. “Wizards of the Coast is well positioned to maximize future opportunities, including further brand development on digital platforms. The result of this consolidation is a more streamlined approach to driving core brands.”
Originally Posted by WotC statements to ICv2
Reached for comment by ICv2, a WotC spokesperson noted, “Wizards of the Coast consolidated its digital game organizations to streamline execution of digital growth strategies for core brands.”
Hasbro was disappointed so we made a useless gesture to placate them.
Wizards of the Coast President Greg Leeds also weighed in. “Consolidating internal resources coupled with improved outsourcing allows us to gain efficiencies in executing against our major digital initiatives Magic Online and D&D Insider,” he said. “Wizards of the Coast is well positioned to maximize future opportunities, including further brand development on digital platforms. The result of this consolidation is a more streamlined approach to driving core brands.”
Using our own programmer was becoming to expensive so we decided to outsource instead. This will allow us to concentrate on the publishing side while blaming outsourcing for the failure that is to come for DDi.
Oh yes, it's all a lie...
As reported here
That still in no way, shape or form says that these layoffs are due to low subscription rates of DDI, or lagging sales of splatbooks. I'm pretty sure that is what was being referred to by emwasick. There was already confirmation from Noonan himself that the rumors of the layoffs, and the list presented of who was getting laid off, was true. In no statement, NONE, does it say that this is due to poor DDI subscription rates, or poor splatbook sales. Just as it doesn't say anything about lagging Magic Online sales. Thus, those sorts of assertions are speculation, and have NOT been confirmed by ANYONE.
Using our own programmer was becoming to expensive so we decided to outsource instead.
The mention of outsourcing I find really worrying, because it was contracting DDI development out to Radient Machine that cost WotC a years worth of time and money before Gleemax was mercifully killed, and presumably the same period of time with little to no real progress made towards the unreleased portions of the DDI (with only the low hanging fruit currently released or in beta testing).
I was under the impression that once Gleemax was killed, they brought development back in house in order to get better control over the process versus the year with the contractor prior to that point. And now what, eight months later, they're reversing course and going right back to what got them in trouble in the first place? Something tells me that the virtual game table and character visualizer may never be released and just quietly scaled back or killed within the next year.
The publisher for Hero Lab had approached Wizards about developing a character generator for them and they turned them down. They would have had it finished long before the release of 4th edition.
But classlessly using the misfortune of others is the perfect way to grind that axe!
It HAS been getting fairly dull. I really need to sharpen it more often. :P
@WotC: Dear GOD in HEAVEN!!! I HATE IT when Corporate Reps feel the need to use big words! As someone with an extensive vocabulary, allow me to inform you that trying to replace "simplified" with "consolidated" or "D&DI and MTGO" with "digital game organizations" does NOT make you sound intelligent and professional, it makes you sound like a Pinstripe-wearing ASSHAT who's totally out of touch with his consumer base! Verboseness does NOT equal a high Intelligence score, it means you can use Dictionary.com successfully! Congratulations! You're as intelligent as a 13-year-old, and just as pretentious, obviously!
The Customer does not want to hear, "Wizards of the Coast is well positioned to maximize future opportunities, including further brand development on digital platforms." The Customer wants to hear, "WotC has simplified things to prepare for a more efficient business plan, which will allow us to attend to the more problematic digital products we aim to improve." HELLO!
Laying off Tweet makes me think of when the Oilers traded Wayne Gretsky...
Truth indeed. I'm going to have to grab and read my copy of Tweet's Over the Edge RPG for a bit I think. (if you haven't read it and you see it, snag it.)
Reached for comment by ICv2, a WotC spokesperson noted, “Wizards of the Coast consolidated its digital game organizations to streamline execution of digital growth strategies for core brands.”
Wizards of the Coast President Greg Leeds also weighed in. “Consolidating internal resources coupled with improved outsourcing allows us to gain efficiencies in executing against our major digital initiatives Magic Online and D&D Insider,” he said. “Wizards of the Coast is well positioned to maximize future opportunities, including further brand development on digital platforms. The result of this consolidation is a more streamlined approach to driving core brands.”
Basically confirms exactly what I had guessed.
They've killed Gleemax completely. We knew it had happened, but I guess most of us thought the cuts were over with the last round. However, regardless of how well she did, Solice (and others involved in the project) were no longer really needed. Their job was to coordinate the community around a project that no longer exists. Instead they are using people who already have other jobs within the company (Mike Gills) who will devote whatever time they have to keeping the community afloat in whatever capacity is deemed necessary.
That's the consolidation.
My guess is that the core functionality of the DDi projects are finished. They will probably outsource some of the testing, relying on a smaller core group of programmers to put on the final polish.
They've laid of in-house writers with the launch of 4e and will move back to their usual model of hiring freelancers. Some, if not all, of the writers laid off will probably be contacted for freelance work in the near future.
There's the outsourcing.
Still sucks though.
I'd be shocked if DDI subscriptions WEREN'T in the hole - people don't have a lot of money right now and why oh why would they spend what they do have on a service that's only partially active? The fact people have subscribed at all suggests that WotC will be doing just fine once the economy turns around. I've subscribed, because I happen to be in an industry that hasn't been effected by the recession.
I'm surprised by the number of people on this message board who are apparently unaware that many major companies are on the verge of collapse. Even if WotC were to announce tomorrow they were going bankrupt and discontinuing 4e and all other products, only then would they just start to be doing as poorly as many other companies at the moment.
Whether it's an edition's 'fault' is hard to say, but the official source confirms the layoffs are due to the failure that is DDI's subscription rate, and the poor sales of all splatbooks (anything after the core 3, which did sell well). So, while the core 3 did well, DDI and all subsequent products are tanking - not what the suits in the boardrooms were hoping for, by a long shot.
this is a flat out lie
The economy's in the tank. That they've been able to keep most of the development staff in their positions, given that D&D is not a necessity like food, clothing, shelter or energy, suggests WotC isn't as bad off as many other companies.
Family branded activities tend to do well in poor economies. Games and toys that connect families do better than big ticket items. On a whole over a time period big ticket items are still more successful but comfort item companies like WOTC's board game division should continue to see a profit regardless of how well the other divisions are doing. WOTC employs 300 people, this is a 3% cut in employees. I wouldn't really worry about the company on whole unless you started seeing cuts in all departments
I'd be shocked if DDI subscriptions WEREN'T in the hole - people don't have a lot of money right now and why oh why would they spend what they do have on a service that's only partially active? The fact people have subscribed at all suggests that WotC will be doing just fine once the economy turns around. I've subscribed, because I happen to be in an industry that hasn't been effected by the recession.
Wish I was in that industry. But still unemployed (from my main job) and making money from my company (more nowadays than before) is better than unemployed and not making money from a company.
I'm surprised by the number of people on this message board who are apparently unaware that many major companies are on the verge of collapse. Even if WotC were to announce tomorrow they were going bankrupt and discontinuing 4e and all other products, only then would they just start to be doing as poorly as many other companies at the moment.
meh. Few companies are really on the verge of collapse most of them just need some good old fashioned retooling. Of the big 3 car companies one of them even announced that it doesn't really need the money it just would be very useful at this time (Ford). Which should be true since they stopped burning cash like they were doing three months ago. They'll still make cuts though.
Small businesses shouldn't make any cuts during this time (I'm quoting a recent entrepeneur magazine that I am sorry to say you cannot see the article online). And WOTC (despite being owned by Hasbro megagiant) is a small business.
The only companies on the verge of collapse probably should. I don't put WOTC in that category. However one of their product lines is on the verge of collapse (the whole online anything) and I expect that we will see more firings over this. One of the tip top who should be fired won't, that's the brand manager as well as the CEO. Both have made decisions that impacted the company on whole and it is usually the impetus of those two who make brand decisions and directions and prioritize the work. Obviously someone let the ball slip at that position and they are dropping the boom on their subordinates to make it look nice.
Hopefully that means a rethinking of direction.
Worth mentioning I too have heard that splat book sales have been flatllined. I get my info from a source at Borders which is not official so I don't think you can quote me on it. The same source has also said that books in general regardless of title have faltered in the last six months so that may or may not be conclusive.
because I happen to be in an industry that hasn't been effected by the recession.
And what would that be? My last full time job was transcribing textbooks into braille for the blind, and even that laid me off in July. Laid off from a non-profit company that got what amounted to free money thanks to "No child Left Behind."*
So I'd really like to know what industry in Michigan© is recession proof. I'm still working on Literary Braille certification via correspondence course, but I'm looking at about a year on that.
* Seriously, even with paying $8.50 / hour for work that is largely automated by computer programs now, the place was able to sell these transcribed textbooks to school districts for $8,000 (literary text) to $15,000 (Nemeth code Braille, for Math and Science). That was just for one copy. Once transcribed, multiple copies could be printed off the master file. R&D only costs on the first one.
© Wholly owned property of General Motors corporation, all rights removed form the citizens. Sell the jets and pay the workers already!
Date wise the last thing listed in the press release today was two months old.
"10/2/2008 Gleemax Announcement - 10/1/2008 Company"
Maybe they fired the person resposible for writing press releases? :D
Now that that's out of the way, I haven't seen this yet so I'm just going to HAVE to say it and giggle the whole time I'm typing...seeing all this disbelief and angst over these specific lay-offs, NOW ya'll know how us $ed haters and REAL FR fans feel after this fiasco was shoved down our throats
Now you may return to your regularly scheduled topic.
And what would that be?
Healthcare tends to be pretty recession-resistant; even if one institution has layoffs, the system tends to have high enough demand overall that getting rehired is pretty easy. Education, too, at least on the primary level.
REAL FR fans feel after
Because, obviously, "real FR fans" don't like 4th edition...
** No, not all American Indians fit the stereotype of drunken louts selling beads and bingo to the white man. Sadly, many the ones near me do, and ruin it for the ones that don't. I hope that they realize that when GM goes, so does the casino, and that they put the profits into a new industry soon.
I thank you for the disclaimer and I apologize that your experiences with Native Americans have been of such poor quality.
One thing I learned very long ago from my grandfather was that we, as a people are stronger than any one individual. By supporting friends, family and neighbors as well as ourselves, we can make our communities more able to handle this collapse of the corporate markets.
It's times like these that we need to remember the lessons we learned as children about sharing. I realize it's not easy to offer help to others without guarantees that they would do the same, but in the end, it may be all that raises up from the current mess. In this time after Thanksgiving, remeber that if it weren't for the local Natives, the Pilgrims of Plymouth would not have survived.
My condolences to those from WotC that find themselves without employment. Hopefully you can find another company in need of your talents.
For me personally, things look pretty good. Wizards offers generous severance packages, and my personal situation is stable.
Thanks to all those who have contributet to D&D, and i hope those who were laid off find new employment soon.
I like to thank Tweet for his work on Dreamblade. Just a wonderful, wonderful game (and underappreciated too). Those where good days in Dreamblade's hayday.
Good luck.
Honestly, I don't think this is DDI related so much as it is gleemax related - I suspect these people were all tied into Gleemax, and all promoted it, and as Gleemax did not work out at all, its probable that a lot of these people got the axe as WotC wasted a lot of money on a flop.
The DDI probably isn't helping though, as it is far behind schedule. But I suspect the failure of Gleemax is the real culprit here, though DDI is not a bright spot they can move into.
Its worth noting, though, that none of these names appear on the front of the 4th edition books.
And honestly, don't their art directors get laid off on a regular basis? How many have they been through? It seems like the position is cursed or just impossible.
Well he is/was the head of the Digital Initiative. That's pretty much failed, the only thing left is to lob off the head and move on. Honestly, he should have stayed with M:tG, he'd have a much safer job over there, even if this report proves false.
I think he may well have been promoted out of MTG intentionally to a position he could do less damage in. I forget what it was that made me think that back when I played Magic, but when I first read about the promotion that was what popped into my head. No offense, but I got that impression from stuff I'd read here, on WotC's actual site.
All of this is easy to see just by browsing the DDI Board. It has not failed, they're just MASSIVELY behind. The MARKETING Department needs to be Fired, and I have always had this feeling that HASBRO has taken over that particular area of WotC. Randy Buehler has done nothing wrong and has done MANY things right.
Is it really marketing's fault though?
Its not like 4e is doing poorly.
And blaming marketing for that seems suspicious. Honestly, I think this really is the fault of the digital guys. A VTT is not this difficult to put together, and they have been working on it for well over a year now. There are free VTTs out there, too.
Marketing may have had a hand in it, but you should say no if you know you cannot do it.
Apparently, Backgrounds have been deemed "broken" by the Optimizers That Be (tm).
Saying that optimizers have to look elsewhere as this cannot be abused was beyond silly. I don't know what he's been doing, but I think that this attitude is a poor one.
It isn't about the power of the backgrounds, anyway. They don't particularly break the game, though they are bad for the already having problems skill system.
The REAL issue is that he didn't understand what he was doing with these nor the consequences of his actions.
One has to wonder, though, what this means about 4e and how it's doing if two of it's biggest designers (Mr. Noonan and Mr. tweet) have been let go.
None of them are on the covers.
And honestly, given Noonan's attitude expressed in the background article, as well as his defense of something which really isn't defensible (simple math would have shown Careful Strike's issues), I'm not really sure its a bad thing.
I don't hate any of these people, and I don't think they're rabidly incompetent. But wailing about Hasbro is, I think, more than a little misplaced. The economy is bad, DDI is behind scheduled, and Gleemax failed horribly. If I was in charge of WotC, I'd be tempted to fire several people over that failure regardless, and with a bad economy it just makes the decision of who I don't want working for my company easier for me.
My favorite products don't have their names on the front, so I'm not really feeling that I'm losing anything, and Noonan has not particularly impressed me with his podcasts.
Well, since the recent buyout from Carnegie...
While off-topic, I found this comment amazingly hilarious.
I'm not trying to start a 4e doom and gloom rumor. I just find it odd, that the D&D devision is being downsized, when supposedly it is doing so well. I mean wasn't 4e one of the biggest successes ever, selling out of 3 print runs? Seems odd that they'd be getting rid of talent when the product line is proforming better then everyone's wildest dreams.
You're in denial.
Who are they getting rid of?
Not the people who made 4e. They're getting rid of gleemax folks, and people who dealt with the digital stuff.
We had recessionary numbers right when they were releasing 3.0 and then 9/11 pretty much tanked everyones sales.
9/11 wasn't the cause. "Fiscal conservatives" peg it on that because they don't want to believe that their policies are bad for the economy.
9/11 caused a temporary dip, but the real issue was deeper rooted and was unrelated.
At the Hasbro meeting I was told that WOTC broke previous monetary sales records not that they broke previous item sales.
You're not thinking about it properly.
Why would they talk about item sales when they can talk about monetary sales?
Which is more important to the shareholder?
Yes, the digital section got cut. DDI delays are likely part of it. This does NOT explicitly state that it is due to poor subscription rates. There is also the failure of Gleemax and those wasted resources. Magic Online numbers are also a virtual unknown, and money has been going into MtGO 3.0 for quite some time now. Again, do you have specifics stating that this is due to DDI, subscription rates, and splatbook sales, or did you just pull that out of your *** is that just a complete guess on your part?
Sales rates aren't even necessarily what matter. If people were getting canned for it, most likely it'd be because of the delays and the many attendant complaints. They said last year that it'd launch with 4e; its advertised in the back of the books. Now its december, and there isn't a release date for anything.
And yes, of course they made it up.
I have always maintained that 4th edition came out to soon, though the product that is out now is still a good product. I believe it could have been better, with wealth not being a balancing factor, skills being more than a port of the theatrical system in SaGa, Magical Items having a better resell value and worth making (Instead of being costly to make and less to sell), and having the gnome in the first books instead of the out of place Tiefling. However, I don't believe this latest role call of pink slips was the fault of 4th edition failures or slump in sales. It is instead a simple axe hitting on random employees, at least in my mind.
Your opinion is wrong.
4e is fine, and more time wouldn't have improved it more than it would have cost.
I'd be shocked if DDI subscriptions WEREN'T in the hole - people don't have a lot of money right now and why oh why would they spend what they do have on a service that's only partially active? The fact people have subscribed at all suggests that WotC will be doing just fine once the economy turns around. I've subscribed, because I happen to be in an industry that hasn't been effected by the recession.
Um, because they're purchasing a subscription to Dungeon and Dragon. And, honestly, its not that much money.
People think about DDI as it is right now the wrong way. Its really a subscription to Dungeon and Dragon magazines, and for $5 per month, that's not a bad deal if you're into that sort of thing.
Look people, let's look at reality:
1) These layoffs are largely directed at people involved with Gleemax. Is anyone surprised by this? No one should be. The people who thought this was a good idea had it coming. I'm sorry, but Gleemax really never seemed like a viable product to me. How were they going to make money from it? I really just didn't see it working as a means of generating any sort of income, nor as a viable way to attract large numbers of gamers in the first place.
2) However much you may love designer X, there's a good chance (s)he's made mistakes. Noonan has made mistakes. Who should get the cut before him? Someone whose name you don't know? Why? Because you don't know their name. You just like blaming someone you've never heard of or interacted with. Likely, those who were heavily involved with their online stuff, delays and all, and got the worst performance reviews, were probably who were let go. I don't hate Noonan, but his defense of Careful Strike and his comments on his background article really didn't make me think "Oh, this is a guy WotC cannot afford to lose." His name is not on the front cover of the 4th edition core books, and they aren't even in the top for the PHB development thinger in the inside credits. They're in "other design and development". None of these people were on the covers of those books. So obviously they're not as integral as you'd like to believe.
And what would that be?
Lots of them. Not all industries, and not all companies, go down when there are recessions. People who make good choices aren't as strongly affected, and sometimes can flourish under such conditions.
I'm not trying to be tasteless here, but being let go happens, and honestly, its not like they pulled these names out of a hat. They decided people needed to go and they got rid of the people they felt they should get rid of. WotC, Hasbro, ect. should not be yelled at for doing this, and saying that they're morons for firing these people is more than a little misplaced. It sucks for them, but ultimately, it may be for the best for us and WotC.
I think he may well have been promoted out of MTG intentionally to a position he could do less damage in. I forget what it was that made me think that back when I played Magic, but when I first read about the promotion that was what popped into my head. No offense, but I got that impression from stuff I'd read here, on WotC's actual site.
I agree, and it wasn't just his public postings, but the way he dealt with people in face-to-face discussions.
I remember in 04 attending GenCon Indy for the first time where a panel labled "The State of Magic" was held. The panel included Richard Garfield, Randy Buehler, Mons Johnson, and a few others. They spent the entire time praising "The State of Magic" as something that was glorious and wonderful.
The crowd, while pleased with the game overall, had a slightly different view, and after the 20-minute self-love pat-on-the-back session ended, began bringing the panel back to reality. Not to say all the comments were complaints, but were more humble and sought real answers.
The moment I realized Buehler wasn't listening was when someone asked if there would be any effort made to make type 1 more competitive for newer players who didn't have the hundreds or even thousands of dollars to spend on the power 9 cards.
I awaited, optimistically and open-mindedly, the response. The answer was insulting and dismissive. It went something like, "We love to see players come in second or third place with a deck that doesn't use those cards. It impresses us."
After the panel ended, I walked over to the person who asked the question and asked him what he thought of the answer, just to be sure I didn't misunderstand or infer something else into it. He shook his head in disgust and said, They don't really give a
about new players breaking into type 1."That was good enough for me, and my opinion of Buehler has been jaded ever since. He's said a lot of stupid stuff and his actions with Magic were even worse, and I agree that he was moved out of M:tG with a purpose.
But that said, I hate to see anybody become unemployed, and I hope he can land on his feet in a non-gaming industry. Being able to play the game at a top level of competition, any game, should not warrant you a seat at the design table.
Someone asked about an official annuncment. Things that make you go, "hum!"
Date wise the last thing listed in the press release today was two months old.
"10/2/2008 Gleemax Announcement - 10/1/2008 Company"
Mr. Slavicsek discussed the changes to Wizards of the Coast's digital initiatives in this morning's "Ampersand" column. That seems pretty official to me.
Best of luck to those great people that are affected by this change. I think they have all done great things for the game and the community over the years.
I wonder at why Ms. Steven's made her "announcement." I think a person of her position may want to refrain from making posts like that. When Pathfinder finally goes bust, I doubt she'd appreciate it if Greg Leeds posts a list of people Stevens has to lay-off from Paizo. While we appreciate knowing who the former Wizards employees are to share our condolences with, somebody else should have posted that regrettable list of names.
I wonder at why Ms. Steven's made her "announcement."
Who knows. But I doubt, like you insinuate that she was making light of it at all. That's absolutely disgusting to suggest.
Your opinion is wrong.
4e is fine, and more time wouldn't have improved it more than it would have cost.
I agree it is better than what 3.5 had become, and has a better eye for the future integration of future products. What I listed, though, is broken rules that can be ignored for common sense house rules or changed a bit to a more to reflect a better outlook for the heroes instead of keep them forever poor.
Skills needed more work, there is no question in this. The SaGa direct port was a mistake. That there is a table for difficulties based on level means that some situations will always be 50/50 pass-fail. One has to "waste" feats for skills to get better at them.
It needed more time or a bigger team to corteque and test the rules as well as make different suggestions and come up with some ideas other than "Lets just use this other thing and forget about it."
3.5 was not done, part of this was an attempt (successful one) at an influx of money. The whole license lapse for various products didn't help the PR attempt as the new edition was closer to being released. The botched "4venture" snafu wasn't helping either.
This could have waited, and the new edition could have been tweaked, and the horrible wealth rules scraped.
It is still a good product, but because of the rush, it has some growing pains, and 4.5 isn't going to be as well received as 3.5 eventually was.
this is a flat out lie
What did you expect? It was written by the same dude that claimed the auto industry never had serious financial problems before.
I look forward to seeing their work on thier own, or other game systems.
I agree it is better than what 3.5 had become, and has a better eye for the future integration of future products. What I listed, though, is broken rules that can be ignored for common sense house rules or changed a bit to a more to reflect a better outlook for the heroes instead of keep them forever poor.
No. What you listed are things which work fine but you don't understand/violate your idiosynchratic personal preferences that most people don't have.
Skills needed more work, there is no question in this. The SaGa direct port was a mistake. That there is a table for difficulties based on level means that some situations will always be 50/50 pass-fail. One has to "waste" feats for skills to get better at them.
The skills system's problem is not that it is a direct port (the system is actually quite solid in its basis) but that they allowed far too many modifiers to be added onto skill checks. And difficulty based on level is entirely necessary; its good design. That you don't like it indicates you do not understand what it is or why it works the way it does.
I'm sorry you have difficulty understanding why it is important for these skill checks to scale with level, but it is very important that they do so to keep skill checks meaningful.
It is still a good product, but because of the rush, it has some growing pains, and 4.5 isn't going to be as well received as 3.5 eventually was.
4.5 won't exist.
I wonder at why Ms. Steven's made her "announcement." I think a person of her position may want to refrain from making posts like that. When Pathfinder finally goes bust, I doubt she'd appreciate it if Greg Leeds posts a list of people Stevens has to lay-off from Paizo.
You, sir, should think twice before posting such rubbish. Your obvious personal bias aside, it is despicable to suggest that Lisa Stevens was being spiteful or smug. She has done nothing to warrant it, and using these layoffs as a platform to snipe at her is rather low.
4.5 won't exist.
we will go in circles in this, but your fooling yourself if you don't think 4.5 is the eventual result from the rush of this new edition.
4.5 won't exist.
The future is comming and with it the inevitability of change. One day there will be a new edition, be it 4.5 or just 5th, there will come a time when D&D moves forward once more into a new age. Eventually there will be a time when there is no D&D at all as well.
One can never say things like "4.5 won't exist." Afterall, look how accurate people were when they said that WoTC wasn't planning a 4th edition.
No. What you listed are things which work fine but you don't understand/violate your idiosynchratic personal preferences that most people don't have.
Very useful as a sig.
You know I'm sad that anyone loses thier job especially right before christmas.
However. . . some new blood maybe be just what the game needs. Some people say 10 years of experience and it very well means 10 years of idiosynchratic personal preference at the helm of the game.
I'm willing to do what was suggested by so many as 4.0 was released. Wait and see what they come up with next. Then judge the validity of the action.
People spouting of reasons.... to some degree its just being a jerk, but hey if it makes you feel better. Indulge. However for the rational people the realization should dawn that:
The reasons dont' matter too much the real question is... what happens now?We might get some really great new designers it just our predilection to resist change.
[b]We might get some really great new designers it just our predilection to resist change.
Actually, I feel for them losing their jobs but I've never really noticed changes in designers. It's the content that matters to me. I hate 4e, but I never really noticed who designed it.
Firstly, my heart goes out to those laid off. I've been laid off due to company financial troubles in the past, and it is no fun. To be laid of at this time of year is even worse. I wish them every success at finding new employment, hopefully still within the gaming industry - it would be a shame if their talents were to end up elsewhere.
But as far as WotC economic woes go, I find myself with a startling inability to care. For a company that has repeatedly and wantonly milked it's fanbase for cash in the recent past, I can't help but feel a certain amount of karma. I'm not naive enough to think that WotC is anything but a company, and that a company's primary goal is to earn profit for it's shareholders, but WotC has shown some serious disregard for the fans of late. There are (at least) two ways to make a profit in business: 1.) Treat your fans with care and respect to build a loyal fanbase; 2.) Treat them like schmuks to be fleeced at every turn.
I'll leave it up to the individual to decide which of these categories WotC belongs to...
9/11 wasn't the cause. "Fiscal conservatives" peg it on that because they don't want to believe that their policies are bad for the economy.
9/11 caused a temporary dip, but the real issue was deeper rooted and was unrelated.
Yeah thanks for not reading the post and commenting on it, I always love that. "Fiscal conservatives" like myself recall that the economy had been in a near recession for two years prior to 9/11, but a hit like that was like a drop kick to the already forlorn economy. Most everyone else (well at least pundits) thought the economy was hunky dorie before that
Or as I said
"We had recessionary numbers right when they were releasing 3.0 and then 9/11 pretty much tanked everyones sales"
You're not thinking about it properly.
Why would they talk about item sales when they can talk about monetary sales?
Which is more important to the shareholder?
Item sales.
Well I suppose someone who buys hasbro stock and is a knee jerk investor will want monetary sales records, but Item sales records tell you the truth about a companies health. Large long term investors look for that type of return vs the short term. And despite the prevalence of short term investors, most shares of a company are held long term. Also short sellers like decreased item sales. Think of it this way. Companies are healthier with the more items they sell of their brand not less regardless of how much profit they make off the item
Here's a scheme to explain: say a company sold 400 books wholesale 30$ (regular market at 60$) and their costs were at half wholesale at 15$= $12,000 profit gross. Then the following year they sold 301 books at 80 dollars wholesale 40, cost 20). Their record breaking profit was 12,040 dollars however they sold fewer books. And more impotantly their labor cost per book raised by almost 5$. The net profit would then be 6000 for the 400 books or 6020 for the 301 books. That record profit was only $20 more. If inflation was 5% then profits should have been 6,300 dollars. But any economist or stockholder would see the decrease of item sales to indicate a weakening company and a weakening demand, and they would expect the company at some point to either take a loss or fold depending on the magnitude. Moreover the increase in labor costs indicate that the costs don't match value placed by the consumer. They would expect layoff to keep the company afloat
See record profits are based upon two limiting factors your gross, and your net after cost. Sometimes a company will say record without calculating net, sometimes they will say record despite having a lower gross. Either way, if record breaking does not reflect inflation then your company is not being profitable, its being disingenuous.
Your opinion is wrong.
This statement right here sums up everything I tend to abhor about these forums. How can an opinion be wrong? It's an opinion. It can't be wrong. Their very nature excludes wrong. they can be based on wrong information, misinformation, or lies, but they cannot be wrong. Your opinion that 4.0 is great is right as is his opinion that it sucks. They are both opinions. Look you said this
4e is fine, and more time wouldn't have improved it more than it would have cost
That could be factual, not an opinion. The cost to make a system better may be more expensive than releasing it at the time. That is a natural business decision. And if that happened then you are right, because it is not an opinion, it is based in fact. However, you don't know that, you are not privy to that information, therefore it is your opinion. I may disagree with it, but it is still your opinion, there is no wrong. It may be based in lies, or misinformation that you intentionally spread, but it is still your opinion. And really there is no right nor wrong. Just a statement of opinion.
And seriously, reading the rest of the post made me wince because it's all stated like it's a fact. Then reading further along I find the rest of this posters comments equally off-putting
Statements like
4.5 won't exist
That you don't like it indicates you do not understand what it is or why it works the way it does.
but you don't understand/violate your idiosynchratic personal preferences that most people don't have
I'm sorry you have difficulty understanding why it is important for these skill checks to scale with level
You're in denial
These types of snipes and comments are better suited to political arguments at local coffee shops when you are surrounded by a bunch of pandering syncophants, not on a forum where people at least pretend to be civil. i trust that the poster will see he/she probably had a bad couple of days and did not intend them to sound like they were intentionally trying to pick a fight.
As for the comments about 4.5, can we at least agree to disagree when we are discussing something entirely different. I don't care if cause A believes there will be and Cause B thinks there won't, when I am discussing recent firings at WOTC, or for that matter Star Wars Saga edition [seriously I saw this same fight on their forum a few weeks ago]
This statement right here sums up everything I tend to abhor about these forums. How can an opinion be wrong? It's an opinion. It can't be wrong. Their very nature excludes wrong. they can be based on wrong information, misinformation, or lies, but they cannot be wrong. Your opinion that 4.0 is great is right as is his opinion that it sucks. They are both opinions. Look you said this
Of course opinions can be wrong. You have opinions on reality. If your opinion does not match with reality, then your opinion is wrong.
Of course opinions can be wrong. You have opinions on reality. If your opinion does not match with reality, then your opinion is wrong.
Opinion is never "wrong" per sey. It is just that the one with the opinion that seems a bit off kilter is most likely basing that opinion on facts that may be from speculation or rumor.
Or it may not be an opinion at all, but a wish, or a feverant hope. Maybe even a statement based on supposition.
I think that some of the speculation here is guessing on what is what, not opinion.
Of course opinions can be wrong.
Well as taught in the third grade, opinions are never right or wrong, only facts are right or wrong. Opinions can be based on incorrect facts, of course, but an opinion is not the same thing as a fact.
Belief=/=Opinion.
Man, Nintendo made a monster.
Its not Hasbro's fault Gleemax failed.
Then whose fault is it?
D&D should be run by some smaller company, less greed oriented
There is no such thing as a company that is not profit oriented.
Well, at least not one that remains functioning.
The issue with Hasbro operating on a larger scale does not make them greedy, just big. There is nothing wrong with that.
Whining about WotC owning it is just plain old silly.
Then whose fault is it?
It is the original premise and the impossible mountain to climb to execute it. It was the fault of whomever came up with the flawed concept, and the dumb bunny that approved the creation of the thing.
D&D should be run by some smaller company, less greed oriented
... less likely to be able to afford the large print runs that keep prices lower or advertising to give decent market penetration.... I wish I couldn't disagree with you or could think of a way that it could work out.
Beliefs can be wrong.
Belief=/=Opinion.
First off let's not belabor a point. A belief is not equal to an opinion. It is similar . In order to have a belief you have to have an opinion. But in order for an opinion to reach the stage where it becomes a belief it requires conviction. Conviction + Opinion = Belief
Like me saying that I think a girl looks pretty in a dress, I am usually stating an opinion and might shop this opinion around looking for someone who agrees. If I become so mesmerized as to be convinced I could care less what anyone else thinks. Opinion becomes belief.
You may outright say you disagree with me regarding this definition but look at these two fundamental statements, direct quotes from two writers
"It is of my opinion that there most likely is a supreme being, whether he interferes with man on a daily basis, I am not quite convinced." (Neil Simon)
"I believe in God the Father Almighty...." (um I think it's in the Bible)
If belief equals opinion, then both are faithful followers of the church. Would you say that based upon your understanding of how the English Language and belief systems work that those two are equal?
No because Iron ore is not Iron; nickel iron and carbon in a pile aren't steel; and Hydrochloric acid isn't water (for non chemists HCL is Hydrogen chloride until it is put into water). A part of a whole does not make it the whole
As my favorite Lutheran Minister said, "Get a hundred lutherans to gether and ask them what isGod and they'll give you a hundred answers." A detail regarding opinions and beliefs that people tend to forget is that an opinion is based upon facts even if the facts are right or wrong, a belief is not restricted to facts. I could believe anything, but my opinion relies on what I am presented.
And then finally there is speculation which is reserved for contemplation and formulation of opinions based upon provided evidence, most often times it is a conclusion lacking judgement. For instance going back to the pretty dress wearing girl, maybe instead of saying the dress is pretty to me, I have watched the girl for the last three hours walk up and down the street and noticed that people seemed to react to the mixture of girl and dress not just girl. I could speculate that the girl or dress are considered pretty and I may not agree at all or I may not have an opinion, yet I can see that others do, therefore it is my specualtaion that the girl is pretty in that dress.
To sum the problem with this thread
It is a fact that these people were let go during one fof the worst economic crisis in thirty years.
It is my belief that you owe your employees something more meaningful than a two week severance package.
It is my opinion that Dave Noonan at least deserves a second chance in the RPG design world considering his previous performance.
It is my speculation that this is connected to a mixture of poor performance and house cleaning.
I conjecture that this is secretly a conspiracy created by the zombie lords of Rennes to destroy america's youth culture
Regardless of what I believe, opine, express, speculate or conjecture, I hope that those who are let go find some benefit to having worked there and find that opportunities present themselves soon.
All companies exist to make money. Obviously someone doesn't understand this.
Yes, and what you don't understand is the difference companies which are (excessively) greedy, and those which aren't.
I'm not naive enough to think that WotC is anything but a company, and that a company's primary goal is to earn profit for it's shareholders, but WotC has shown some serious disregard for the fans of late. There are (at least) two ways to make a profit in business: 1.) Treat your fans with care and respect to build a loyal fanbase; 2.) Treat them like schmuks to be fleeced at every turn.
I'll leave it up to the individual to decide which of these categories WotC belongs to...
Whining about WotC owning it is just plain old silly.
Are you on Wizards payroll, or are your comments in this thread due to plain old fanboyism?
Regardless of what I believe, opine, express, speculate or conjecture, I hope that those who are let go find some benefit to having worked there and find that opportunities present themselves soon.
Hear, hear!!
I suppose my point was that beliefs are based on more than opinions...that conviction is based on one of two things: faith or facts. If I have a belief, it is because I'm convinced of something. I can be...erm...unconvinced with contrary evidence or a loss of faith.
It seems as though your examples all center around faith, which I might argue is either a component in belief or, even alternately that belief is a component in faith. It's not a perfect corollary.
Regardless, good points on your part, particulcarly the end of your post with conjecture, speculation, and such.
What we all seem to be considering here is:
1. Did WotC have to do what it did in laying people off?
2. If so, why?
3. If not, why did they do it?
4. If not, were they justified in doing so?
My opinion is that either it did have to do it to remain profitable because things are falling apart (with Gleemax, Insider, some of the non D&D WotC stuff, etc) OR that they didn't have to do it and they were just cutting costs. If that is the case, I think that this is horrible. Lay off loyal employees in a horrible market and during the holidays? That smacks of the recent bailout nonsense in which some banks refused to cut the bonus (BONUS) packages of their CEOs despite the fact that the actual company was faltering. Americans (I don't know about people in other nations) are beginning to wake up to the level of unfairness and corruption in some of the more greedy companies. Not all of them are like that, which people need to remember as well. It is possible to be a company and not be a heartless monstrosity that destroys goodwill and throws loyalty to the winds.
In either case, I'm left either viewing WotC as incompetent or heartless. I have to pick my poison...and I actually think it might be a shade of each.
Yes, and what you don't understand is the difference companies which are (excessively) greedy, and those which aren't.
I certainly don't understand the difference. Could you explain it for me?
I certainly don't understand the difference. Could you explain it for me?
Well, if you would like an example, you could could google search the word "Enron". ;)
I'm not sure how lying about what your losses constitutes "excessive corporate greed". That sounds more like corporate ego and fear of repercussions. Most corporate accounting scandals aren't fueed by greed at all, but rather fear and pride. Usually, it involves covering up a small loss, hoping you can make it up in future quarters, but when you can't do that, it quicky spirals out of control. Greed doesn't factor significantly (certainly not excessively) into that equation.
Now, Enron had its share of excess, but that was a symptom of the delusion that most officers (those not involved in the fraud) had that the company was filthy stinking rich and very successful.
Now, maybe you could say that the accounting firm Arthur Andersen suffered "excessive greed" in that they put aside their ethical and professional resposibilities to accurately account for the firm's profits and losses because they were afraid if they asked the tough questions they would be fired and replaced with different accountants. AA's demise does seem like it's related to greed because AA, as certified public accountants, had a duty to the public that they abandoned in favor of money.
Still not sure how that relates to the Wizards of the Coast though, so I doubt that's what Thubane was referencing.
So what does Thurbane think the difference is between excessively greedy companies and those that aren't? And why did he indicate that WotC is in the former category?
I'm not sure how lying about what your losses constitutes "excessive corporate greed".
Thats not quite the extent of Enron's crimes. What I was thinking of, which qualifies them for the "excessive corporate greed" category, was their deceptive way of making money. In California (if memory serves correctly), Enron faked power shortages when in fact the supply was more than sufficent, driving up the price and swelling its own coffers at the expense of customers (something which our national energy provided started doing itself over here in the begininning of 08, as chance would have it).
The idea that "business is business", and that capitilism is all about making money no matter how that is accomplished, is incorrect. *Most* companies in the world *don't* lie to their customers to get an extra dime out of them.
All anyone in this thread who is complaining about WotC is saying is "I don't understand what is going on, and therefore WotC is an evil corporation!" There's really no logical link between laying off people who were involved with a failed project and WotC being an evil corporation.
What I was thinking of, which qualifies them for the "excessive corporate greed" category, was their deceptive way of making money.
Fair enough. If this is also Thurbane's definition, I'd like to know how it relates to WotC and their layoffs.
There's really no logical link between laying off people who were involved with a failed project and WotC being an evil corporation.
Perhaps the evil corporation created the project without complete support, thus ensuring that it was indeed a failed project from the getgo?
If you aren't backing your projects up with advertising and funding, then the project can make no headway.
Thus, if you then were to lay people off for your mistake, that indeed makes you evil, because people will do as they're told, but if what they're told doesn't match what they are experiencing, then someone in the long chain screwed up.
And if someone higher up screwed up, then it's the fault of the higher up and the higher up should be laid off. But in a world where a piece of paper signifies time and money "well spent" and dictates what you are capable of, not by experience, but by the very piece of paper saying so, higher ups are hard to replace*.
*With higher ups who are probably just as qualified to screw up the work of the poor little workers who do get laid off.
Ah, corporate feudalism and laissez faire economics. I love the smell of an empty cubicle in the morning.
But all of this implies that someone somewhere screwed up. Perhaps, perhaps not. But explain that to the people who were just laid off simply because of work.
Yes, and what you don't understand is the difference companies which are (excessively) greedy, and those which aren't.
Are you on Wizards payroll, or are your comments in this thread due to plain old fanboyism?
Based upon your post and your sig, I can only assume that your comments in this thread are due to plain old grognardism. Your sig vilifies WotC for ending the print-run of Dungeon and Dragon magazine (and conveniently ignores the fact that both are back, as high-quality as ever and more inexpensive to the consumer than ever), while post vilifies WotC for trying to participate in a market economy. The fact remains that plenty of roleplayers (myself included) think that WotC's products are currently better than ever. Maybe I'm a "fanboy" for enjoying 4E, but I'm entitled to do so without being criticized for my opinion.
Fair enough. If this is also Thurbane's definition, I'd like to know how it relates to WotC and their layoffs.
For the record, I'm not arguing a case about WotC here. I simply felt like saying that there is a line between between healthy self-interest and destructive greed. Business is not an "all's fair in love and war" kind of situation, and capitalism does not necessitate profit at any cost. Does this have anything to do with the WotC layoffs? I don't know. I certainly do have some issues with some WotC decisions in the past, and think these layoffs are unfortunate, but I'm not making a case for whether or not this specific incident is unethical or not. It just kinda bugs me to see people denying that there is such a thing as too much greed in a company. Business ethics are an important part of society, and not to be dismissed.
Anyhow, I will let you get back to your discussion.
A lot of design and launch decisions aren't always made by the developers who know the most of how to make a game great. Higher-ups within the company (who are for the most part, functionally detached from the people who design the game itself) also see 'cost-cutting' as a means for increased profit, which allows for irrational design decisions, bad releases, and loss of key developers that end up hurting the franchise in the long run, even though the Short Term gains are seen as profit gain.
It's quite possible the scores of layoffs within the company were shortsighted cost-cutting measures to temporarily squeeze profit at the long-term cost of future DnD projects. (Higher-Ups do not necessarily have an emotional attachment to ongoing franchises as we do for sticking, because dollar amounts have no emotions attached to them and can be rather unforgiving)
For the record, I'm not arguing a case about WotC here. I simply felt like saying that there is a line between between healthy self-interest and destructive greed.
And I didn't mean to imply that there is no such line. (Which is why I gave Arthur Andersen as an example of excessive corporate greed; I hadn't considered Enron's intentional use of rolling blackouts, which I agree is also "excessive" corporate greed.)
I just didn't (and don't) see how it applies to the present situation.
...vilifies WotC for ending the print-run of Dungeon and Dragon magazine (and conveniently ignores the fact that both are back, as high-quality as ever and more inexpensive to the consumer than ever), while (also) vilifies WotC for trying to participate in a market economy. The fact remains that plenty of roleplayers (myself included) think that WotC's products are currently better than ever.
OK, I have to say something about this.
The online mags will never... I Repeat, NEVER be the same as the printed magazine. With this new edition, the beginning had some rough starts, with adventures that are ramped up beyond what they should be, and hardly any actual "role playing" included. Most were, as I have seen, dungeon crawls. People are confusing optional material for Races and Classes to be the final product when it is really a hold over until the "official" release of the product has them in it. Previews was well and good when it was still a part of the web site and not on this subscriber scheme, but to pay for something that will be eventually out in another form later is, at best, something like a V.I.P. club, one that really has no other purpose than bragging rights.
I do like this new system better, but the DDi needs to be complete and not cost over 6 bucks a month for the whole package. Anything over that, and it isn't worth it.
It is sad that the lay offs happened, but the DDi is not going to get better with less people, and certainly not in any better shape now then it was when 4th edition was released. Gleemax being axed is gonna help, but the real need is for less Fluid like shenanigans, and more done on the programing side to polish up these programs and some leadership to coral the direction for them to go in and integrate the ruleset so that it uses the same information from the user in all programs as they switch from one to the other. I don't see this happening.
The physical books are good, DDi is a mess, and it will take at least 2 years before it will be what it should have been at release.
Your sig vilifies WotC for ending the print-run of Dungeon and Dragon magazine (and conveniently ignores the fact that both are back, as high-quality as ever and more inexpensive to the consumer than ever),...
Really? Can you please direct me to the nearest newsstand that carries the magazine? I'd love to have my monthly magazines back...
There is no such thing as a company that is not profit oriented.
Well, at least not one that remains functioning.
The issue with Hasbro operating on a larger scale does not make them greedy, just big. There is nothing wrong with that.
Well as much as the statement seems reasonable, it is only an expression of another common misconception.
First there are companies which are NOT profit oriented by definition.
And second they are extremelly functional and in some regards astonishing stable compared to the profit oriented ones.
You want an example? Well here is one. It might not be the sexiest story, but nonetheless it tells a lot. MY employer here in Switzerland is COOP. COOP is as you might have assumed short for cooperation. COOP is active in almost all businesses you could think of. Its main division is a supermarket with 800 branches around Switzerland with a comestible stocklist of more than 30'000 articles. Then it has dozens of other divisions with again several hundred branches all together selling almost anything your imagination could conjure up. From garden soil to the toothbrush, from the plasma TV to string tangas. The branches take any shape thinkable from a large emporium to a gas station. From the Do-it-yourself store to the drugstore and tourist agencies. It includes as well a bank with some branches and an insurance company. COOP employs in Switzerland alone approximatelly 36'000 people. What makes it the second larges employer in the country. Directly behind the government. Most amazing it maintains the worlds larges "fair trade" endeavor. Which means paying fair prices for fruits in latin america, tea and cotton in India, etc. And now here the big point is it was all about telling you. COOP is by definition a "non-profit institution". Its charta states as its main purpose "providing services and products for the common advantage". It does aim at "0" profit. A surplus is immediatelly reinvested into the companys efforts. Important as well the government never had its hand in the company it was a "private endaevor" from the beginning. I guess I live in the only country on planet earth where capitalism and socialism made peace.
I guess I live in the only country on planet earth where capitalism and socialism made peace.
You guess wrong. All it means is that the company is a charity that is allowed to compete with private businesses. All charities are non-profit because profit is simply the amount of revenues that are given to the owners of the company. In a government owned company, the profits help fund other government projects. In a privately owned company, the profits are paid to the investors. In a charity, the profits go back into the charitable efforts because it's got nowhere else to go. Every capitalist nation I know has non-profit agencies that exist peaceably with privately owned corporations. (For example, the Girl Scouts of America and their cookie-selling competitor, Nabisco.)
Your COOP is simply using the profits that would have gone to investors and using it to pay fair prices for Latin American produce (and other charitable ventures). However, in order to be able to avoid private ownership and be a charity, it must have raised its initial starting capital from some combination of governmental grants and private donations. Nothing wrong with that at all.
But what does this have to do with Wizards of the Coast? I doubt that Wizards could be run as a non-profit charity. No government is going to subsidize the role-playing industry and I don't think they'll be able to get sufficient capital from private donations. So Wizards is stuck running its business as a business, relying on the capital investments of Hasbro's shareholders, who in turn are expecting a competitive rate of return on their investments.
You guess wrong. All it means is that the company is a charity that is allowed to compete with private businesses. All charities are non-profit because profit is simply the amount of revenues that are given to the owners of the company. In a government owned company, the profits help fund other government projects. In a privately owned company, the profits are paid to the investors. In a charity, the profits go back into the charitable efforts because it's got nowhere else to go. Every capitalist nation I know has non-profit agencies that exist peaceably with privately owned corporations. (For example, the Girl Scouts of America and their cookie-selling competitor, Nabisco.)
Your COOP is simply using the profits that would have gone to investors and using it to pay fair prices for Latin American produce (and other charitable ventures). However, in order to be able to avoid private ownership and be a charity, it must have raised its initial starting capital from some combination of governmental grants and private donations. Nothing wrong with that at all.
But what does this have to do with Wizards of the Coast? I doubt that Wizards could be run as a non-profit charity. No government is going to subsidize the role-playing industry and I don't think they'll be able to get sufficient capital from private donations. So Wizards is stuck running its business as a business, relying on the capital investments of Hasbro's shareholders, who in turn are expecting a competitive rate of return on their investments.
Well it never received money from the government. It was founded by "cooperates". Currently Coop counts approximatelly 2 million cooperates. I guess the girl scounts can not beat that. ;)
Well I never doubted that suc a thing exists elsewhere, but its scale is extremelly large especially after taking into account how small Switzerland is.
The whole thing never was about WotC. It was just to show how the previous assumption was wrong. And the point still needs to be proven wrong, despite your reply. ;)
Well it never received money from the government. It was founded by "cooperates". Currently Coop counts approximatelly 2 million cooperates. I guess the girl scounts can not beat that. ;)
Girl Scouts of America claims to have 3.7 million members throughout the US and its territories.
So Wizards is stuck running its business as a business, relying on the capital investments of Hasbro's shareholders, who in turn are expecting a competitive rate of return on their investments.
Wrong.
If they were expecting a competitive rate of return on their investment, they would work to retain the customers they already have instead of being disrespectful to them, and trying to find new customers at the expense of old customers. Your customers are your most important investors, and even the investors know that.
It's true, you do need new customers to grow your business. It's also true that it takes eight times more capital to recruit new customers than to retain old ones. You should always keep your old customers, it's bread and butter, and a good foundation for anything else. Throwing that away is just a waste.
Many of the decisions that were made over the last eighteen months have put off many long-term loyal game fans, myself included here. These long-term loyal fans drive new sales, and recruit new players. Wizards doesn't have to do a thing, but let them play their game, and keep on buying supplements, add-ons, and accessories.
Instead Wizards deprecated the older game, and threw it right out, dropping support for the game, ceasing publication of supplements, and add-ons, and decreasing the size of the staff. They also managed to cap their most ardent supporters with a glass ceiling by significantly changing the GSL which effectively restricted third parties from publishing new material. It wasn't an actual restriction, however by forcing third party publishers to choose, and with the ambiguity and the tone used in the GSL with third parties, the effect was the same.
Why did this happen? because D&D is not as profitable as the other gaming lines. It doesn't have to be this way.
As I looked at the shelf in my Hastings Bookstore yesterday I noticed the D&D 4.0 section is full. None of the books that were available before Christmas have moved over the Holidays. So the new edition is not appealing to consumers like the older editions were. Usually after Christmas, I have a hard time finding WOTC books, especially the newer ones. Not so this year. Sales are tanking much faster than with earlier editions, and there will be plenty of D&D 4.0 books coming back with shredded spines, or sold at deep deep discounts in fire sales in the coming months.
The Investors punished the Consumers and the Third Party Producers that up until then had been supporting WOTC. I don't know why everyone is so surprised. These results are predictable.
The good news is it's not too late for WOTC and pen & paper RPG's. However if 2009 goes by like 2008, it probably will be.
To reclaim their lead in the P&P RPG Industry WOTC RPG staff needs to:
1) Reclaim their fan base by supporting every edition of D&D that the fans support. Not just with lip service, but with publications of new supplements, additional material for campaign settings, and new games and mini-games. Eberron for 4th edition, fine. Better though... include Eberron for 3.5. Why? I'll continue to buy 3.5 Eberron material. Not interested in 4.0.
2) Get a print periodical devoted to their P&P RPG lines. Maybe we don't need both Dungeon and Dragon, but a flagship print periodical that all players and GM's could rally around, that supports every edition of D&D could bring some focus back on the game from the fans. I like getting gaming stuff in the mail. It'll also be something the old and new players can bond with.
3) Re-engineer the RPGA to support GM sponsored games instead of defining the style of D&D games the GM should be playing. RPGA traditionally only supports the latest incarnation of D&D in order to drive sales up on the new edition. That's fine if they have plenty of resources for the new game, however, they should also change and allow the RPGA members that want to, to support older editions of D&D, if they want to. The GM's that favor the older editions anyway will sponsor games for them anyway, and there's no good reason not to gain some prestige by officially sponsoring events for these GMs to let them know that you really do care about the investment they made in your game. And anyway Prestige is something you all could use a whole lot more of in your offices right about now.
4) Keep DDI and quit capping the folks that are working hard on it. When the Warlord keeps capping his Captains and Battlefield commanders, it gets around to a place where no one wants to be a Captain or Battlefield Commander anymore. Your Investors really don't want to be that kind of Warlord anyway, or do they? With the limitations placed on the DDI staff, and with the sorry state of tools they had to originally work with, they have already achieved miracles. It's senseless to throw all of that away now, after so much progress has been made.
5) Support the third parties that support you. So they get to make some decent money designing add-ons and get to make a name for themselves in the process. Big Deal. Instead of showing them the door, you should be opening the doors of your office for them and letting them hang out to inspire your in-house staff to achieve greatness.
It's not too late to change. You probably have a year, maybe eighteen months, before the damage to your existing fan base is irreparable.
Well it never received money from the government. It was founded by "cooperates".
"Some combination" can include 100% private donation. And where do "cooperates" get the capital to fund COOPs? Either private donations or government grants (or some combination). Those are the only two places from which capital derives.
The whole thing never was about WotC.
The thread is about WotC and whether the lay-offs are a sign of excessive corporate greed. All posts should be read with that in mind, not as some blanket Economics 101 textbook.
If they were expecting a competitive rate of return on their investment, they would work to retain the customers they already have instead of being disrespectful to them
Wow, that packs a lot of assumptions into a single half-sentence.
Even assuming WotC has been "disrespectful", retaining customers only makes sense if the future income of such established customers exceeds the future income of customers attracted to the actions perceived by the established customers as disrespectful.
Are you arguing that Hasbro's shareholders do not want a competitive rate of return?! Or are you arguing that Wizards of the Coast has made a management error that will cause more losses than profits.
If the former, you are arguing for an essentially irrational shareholder, for which I would need evidence.
If the latter, then the problem isn't "excessive corporate greed", is it? It would then be "mismanagement", to which the answer is greedy shareholders should demand the sacking of the mismanaging managers to replace them with someone who will return more profits to the shareholders, right?
Either way, I don't see how Thurbane can blame the layoffs on "excessive corporate greed"
Your customers are your most important investors, and even the investors know that.
I think you mean "investments". And that's not true if the established customers contribute fewer and fewer dollars compared to what they could earn from new customers.
It's also true that it takes eight times more capital to recruit new customers than to retain old ones.
It's not enough to retain them. you need to get them to pay the same amounts they did when they were new. That's why advertisements usually target people with the disposable income, rather than the established customers whose income is tied up in mortgages and childcare.
To reclaim their lead in the P&P RPG Industry WOTC RPG staff needs to:
1) Reclaim their fan base by supporting every edition of D&D that the fans support. Not just with lip service, but with publications of new supplements, additional material for campaign settings, and new games and mini-games. Eberron for 4th edition, fine. Better though... include Eberron for 3.5. Why? I'll continue to buy 3.5 Eberron material. Not interested in 4.0.
I'm not especially interested in 4e either. I have the core books, and there's things I like and things I dislike. Overall, I like 3.5 better -- quite possibly because I'm more familiar with it.
And yet, I have no problem with Wizards of the Coast no longer producing material for 3.5. It isn't in their best interests to fracture the market.
2) Get a print periodical devoted to their P&P RPG lines. Maybe we don't need both Dungeon and Dragon, but a flagship print periodical that all players and GM's could rally around, that supports every edition of D&D could bring some focus back on the game from the fans. I like getting gaming stuff in the mail. It'll also be something the old and new players can bond with.
I can't argue with this. If you haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend Kobold Quarterly.
5) Support the third parties that support you. So they get to make some decent money designing add-ons and get to make a name for themselves in the process. Big Deal. Instead of showing them the door, you should be opening the doors of your office for them and letting them hang out to inspire your in-house staff to achieve greatness.
As a freelancer who works for third party publishers, I fully endorse this.
Wow, that packs a lot of assumptions into a single half-sentence.
That's your half-sentence you are quoting. You do realize that, right?
It's not enough to retain them. You need to get them to pay the same amounts they did when they were new. That's why advertisements usually target people with the disposable income, rather than the established customers whose income is tied up in mortgages and childcare.
I have news for you. I have the mortgage. I have the childcare expenses, and I also have the disposable income to buy... But there is nothing in the current round of offerings I'm interested in, and judging by the sales shelves at Hastings, I'm not the only one. You need to get them to pay much more, because the value of the dollar is plummeting, and will drop much further as long as the Fed continues printing money and handing it out to whoever has their hand out.
Disrespectful is a gentle term. There's a large number of folks that feel much stronger about it than that, but they are not talking about it much.
What I want is something I can use for my game. My 3.5 or OGL game. It's great WOTC published a whole new game, for a whole new generation of players, That's something I advocated about a decade ago by the way. I'm not interested in paying for that game though, because it's not really compatible with the game I have already, and the one I have is good enough.
So this would really be a matter of the new customers paying for the new game, right? fine.
What about the money I have to spend on the game I have already invested heavily in. Don't the investors want any of those Dollars?
Your talk of mismanagement is also out of order. Enough with the headhunting at WOTC and senseless terminations to determine and pewnish who is responsible... See my earlier post about Warlords on this. Everyone that is working there now has been and is fully committed to making D&D a complete success. They are trying new things to see if they will work, and that's a good thing. Every RPG publisher and company continually needs to do that. Just not at the expense of the existing fan base.
Girl Scouts of America claims to have 3.7 million members throughout the US and its territories.
Do they have as well an annual turnover of serveral billion dollars? ;) Well I got what were trying to tell me, but as I said "this is not an american thing". Consider the following. Only 8 million people are living in Switzerland and the COOP cooperation counts 2 million associates. That means that ever fourth person you see on the street is an associate of this "private endaevor"! Thats a massive ratio! That is as if the american girl scouts had 62,5 million members. In addition COOP isnt the only cooperation of that size in Switzerland. "Migros" is the food retail market leader "annual turnover"-wise. This cooperation employs 15'000 people and has 400 branches. And again they have their own emporiums as well. Their own gas stations and their own bank, etc. And as you already might have assumed Migros as well is by definition a "non-profit" institution. Well they dont embrace the philosophy the same way as COOP, but still it is a large cooperation without the primary function of making profit. The 1 million associates they have do not demand a higher "shareholder value". Both of these cooperations do not just sale, they produce as well a lot of products. Cothing, food and so on and so forth. If you see this numbers you can tell this isnt just a mere charity endeavor. These two cooperations belong to the main pillars of our countrys innland economy. And having every second resident being an associate of one of them is a really powerful thing.
"Some combination" can include 100% private donation. And where do "cooperates" get the capital to fund COOPs? Either private donations or government grants (or some combination). Those are the only two places from which capital derives.
The thread is about WotC and whether the lay-offs are a sign of excessive corporate greed. All posts should be read with that in mind, not as some blanket Economics 101 textbook.
No donations at all, just private investment. It grew from very small to markt leadership.
That's your half-sentence you are quoting. You do realize that, right?
No, Dragonflame, it is yours. That's what the quote box does. It enable me to quote your words and you mine. I did not quote my own words.
But there is nothing in the current round of offerings I'm interested in, and judging by the sales shelves at Hastings, I'm not the only one.
I also have the mortgage and kids, and I'm happily buying 4th edition products. And if this is the Hastings in New York, we're neighbors.
So what? Hastings' RPG sales are anecdotal. Compared to the ocean of sales figures from Amazon, your lone neighborhood retailer is a puddle. You're the one who is trying to extrapolate national sales data from your own personal experience. You seem smart enough to know how fallacious that is.
Disrespectful is a gentle term. There's a large number of folks that feel much stronger about it than that, but they are not talking about it much.
Ah, an appeal to the invisible majority.
What about the money I have to spend on the game I have already invested heavily in. Don't the investors want any of those Dollars?
The reason why most RPGs release new editions is becaus eof diminishing returns from established customers. Lots of people bought the corebooks. Fewer people bought the Complete series. Fewer bought the "Heroes of" series Even fewer bought the -scape series. Fewer still the second round of Complete books. By the time Complete Riding Dog and Forestscape, the market isn't paying for the books. Time to release a new edition.
Your talk of mismanagement is also out of order.
If you think that 4th edition was a mistake (and it seems you do), then that fault lies with the current management that greenlit the edition.
Everyone that is working there now has been and is fully committed to making D&D a complete success.
So what? People who are fully committed ot a project can still execute it badly and make poor decisions.
Every RPG publisher and company continually needs to do that. Just not at the expense of the existing fan base.
Sadly, the history of the RPG industry has shown that yes, edition changes are cyclical and necessary and usually result in the alientation of a portion of the existing fanbase. It happened with 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 3.5 and now with 4th. It will happen again whenever 5th is released, and again at 6th (assuming D&D is still being produced).
No donations at all, just private investment.
If it's investment, then the investors own the company, meaning it's not communally owned and it's not a charity. The corporation may have as part of its corporate charter a commitment to charitable work. But so do a lot of private corporations.
If there is no individual ownership of the COOPs, then they are donations, and the company is a charity. I think we've lost the point of this exercise.
It grew from very small to markt leadership.
Um... ok.
If it's investment, then the investors own the company, meaning it's not communally owned and it's not a charity. The corporation may have as part of its corporate charter a commitment to charitable work. But so do a lot of private corporations.
If there is no individual ownership of the COOPs, then they are donations, and the company is a charity. I think we've lost the point of this exercise.
Um... ok.
I guess you dont get the point. There is private ownership. Its just that 2 million people equally share "ownership". Thats the idea of being an associate.
A cooperation basically works like D&D. The players cooperate as a team to successfully achive their individual goals. And a cooperation does the same. People come together and contribute to a combined effort for the common interest they share.
When I say there is no donation I mean that literally. To become an associate you do not donate anything. There just isnt such a thing as donation. You just are able to be an associate by being a customer. To go into the store and buy something is your contribution to the combined effort of making this endeavor possible. At the same time this actually is your interest you sought to further to get what you wanted in the end. For instance I bought a bio yoghurt, thats actually what I wanted to buy and by doing it I supported the endeavor that made its production possible anyway.
Do you understand the term "common interest"? The whole thing isnt about philanthropy or altruism. Its really simple. You have lets say 2 million people and they all share an interest. They want good food, nice clothing and they what the trade to be "fair" for all participaters, "biologically flawless" and what ever comes to your mind. Now they share this interesst, but neither of them is able to achive this on their own. What do they? They form a community of interest and therefore they come together to achive together what wasnt possible alone. They build a cooperation and pool their resources for their combined effort to make the thing happen they want to achive. And since they are the business owners and the customers themselfs they dont need make profit since this money would anyways just flow back to its source, back to them. Thus they can focus on providing the thing they want to have to the entire community of interest the best way possible. The point is the yoghurt I bought was not only meant to be bought by me. I actually was the one who produced and sold it, to myself. Got it? You know I believe you need to have just a little the mindset for this stuff or you dont get it. There is no gain and no lose in the process its all about providing something to yourself you wanted. Following this idea one could say in a way that we "own" WotC too. Since we make its existence possible. Or request for its products sustains its further existence. It only exists to serve us. WoTc endures as long as they make products we want. If they stop doing that the company will cease to exist. The only difference is, in that case I give a little more in than I get back, since they want to make profit. Ask yourself where this profit is going and you will understand something very integral about capitalism. Is it to pay the employees or to buy the paper for the books or to pay their printing? No its not, profit is what you have after you defrayed all costs. Now where does it go?
Unlike such an enterprise WotC and their owners Hasbro are a for profit business. The goals are a bit different and thus the execution wouldn't be the same.
Perhaps the evil corporation created the project without complete support, thus ensuring that it was indeed a failed project from the getgo?
No.
Gleemax was destined to be failure because it had no value. It had no way to make WotC or Hasbro significant money, and its user base consists primarily of people who use WotC's resources anyway.
You cannot just create a community out of thin air; generally communities coalesce on their own, and for you to generate a community, you need to seed with something good, something Gleemax never had.
I know you're bent on Hasbro being a big evil corporation, but you've given no evidence for this. Thus we can dismiss it safely as baseless.
Its very easy to blame big companies. That's why people do it so often. But that doesn't make them right, and in fact often makes them wrong.
No.
Gleemax was destined to be failure because it had no value. It had no way to make WotC or Hasbro significant money, and its user base consists primarily of people who use WotC's resources anyway.
What made it a failure was that WotC didn't do anything the think-tank group asked them to do with it. They had this attitude that everything had to be their idea and even good ideas from the community were twisted into, well, less good ones.
And so this is the result. A complete and total collapse of the digital initiative.
What made it a failure was that WotC didn't do anything the think-tank group asked them to do with it. They had this attitude that everything had to be their idea and even good ideas from the community were twisted into, well, less good ones.
And so this is the result. A complete and total collapse of the digital initiative.
I think that's really just a symptom of the larger problem, which is the gross mismanagement of resources, and poor management in general. Ever since Gleemax was first announced, Hasbro repeatedly reported that they were investing heavily in WotC's Digital Initiative. The funds were there, but they clearly weren't allocated or spent wisely. If the funds really weren't sufficient for all of what the DI was originally supposed to encompass, someone at the top should have recognized that and made adjustments early on. Management is also responsible for that lack of communication across departments that allowed marketing to heavily advertise a product that wasn't ready for public consumption.
I think that's really just a symptom of the larger problem, which is the gross mismanagement of resources, and poor management in general. Ever since Gleemax was first announced, Hasbro repeatedly reported that they were investing heavily in WotC's Digital Initiative. The funds were there, but they clearly weren't allocated or spent wisely. If the funds really weren't sufficient for all of what the DI was originally supposed to encompass, someone at the top should have recognized that and made adjustments early on. Management is also responsible for that lack of communication across departments that allowed marketing to heavily advertise a product that wasn't ready for public consumption.
QFT.
I think that's really just a symptom of the larger problem, which is the gross mismanagement of resources, and poor management in general. Ever since Gleemax was first announced, Hasbro repeatedly reported that they were investing heavily in WotC's Digital Initiative. The funds were there, but they clearly weren't allocated or spent wisely. If the funds really weren't sufficient for all of what the DI was originally supposed to encompass, someone at the top should have recognized that and made adjustments early on. Management is also responsible for that lack of communication across departments that allowed marketing to heavily advertise a product that wasn't ready for public consumption.
Seconded for QFT!!
also...
It is the original premise and the impossible mountain to climb to execute it. It was the fault of whomever came up with the flawed concept, and the dumb bunny that approved the creation of the thing.
what I said about Gleemax earlier in this very thread...
Someone must not have told them about the digital initiative at WotC.
On the drive home Monday night, I heard a report on National Public Radio about how the video game industry is "recession proof."
Vaporware initiatives are NEVER recession proof; eventually they all are uncovered for the fraud that they are.
Vaporware initiatives are NEVER recession proof; eventually they all are uncovered for the fraud that they are.
Well, sometimes vaporware finally launches. Darkfall Online took forever and many speculated it was vaporware, but it will soon be out in the EU. If you promote vaporware, you had better have all your ducks in row and be ready to fleshout your mock ups in short order or the designers and producers all deserve to get trashed. There are penalties for running a con job.
About a year and a half ago we might have seen some vaporware promotions on the big screen... but I do not find fault IF there was good faith and they were dedicated into making good on those promises. But it is sad that the promise of DDI as promoted at GenConIndy 2007 has not progressed past a 3rd level character creator. DDX 2009 in a few weeks has events planned and rewards for people who bring their 15th level character created with a program that is still unavailable. Ouch!
And I am wondering what is the problem with the virtual minis and mapboard? Games more complicated and with lots of extra AI rules seem to come out faster than this (sure they might use more resources, but this programming is so much simpler it SHOULD take less and still be done faster). Forget 3D shading and texturing... buff the graphics later and get us something that works and obeys rules ASAP.
Hopefully, the digital program will get back on track. They do not have much more debugging time before they need to release the lvl 30 version of the character creator the staff is playing with to the DDIers before DDX so the convention special event prize give away can occur as announced. I have been pricing projectors for my laptop anticipating the launch of the virtual tabletop. I can only speak for myself, but we are coming up on two years since the unveil, and I am wondering when we are going to see more of what we were promised.
I was shocked that the digital side did not take some heat sooner. This should have been done simply for missed milestones... before this became (apparently) a budget crisis.
I am saddened that letting the drain last too long might have cost others their positions. It is terrible when you do all you were asked to do, but because others nerfed up the bottom line you end up getting axed as well.
This is why it annoys me that it's not going to be available for (probably) another year or more. It isn't as program heavy as your average Halo/WoW game. The delay occurs from having everything incorporated with the rules and making it so that as soon as something is released, it's available on the table. Which is why the CB took so long.
If I am mistaken about any of this, please correct me. I don't mean just anyone, but someone that has knowledge of the product and works for WotC.
These same experiences have also showed me how much of an affect talented, enthusiastic people can have on any given project. I've seen hopeless projects turn around and succeed when the right person speaks up and offers inspiration. Attitudes truly are contagious, and Mr. Noonan always seemed to have one worth catching.
A company's employees are its greatest asset, period. Companies cannot function without people (no, I'm not a UAW member). I claim no knowledge about the corporate culture at WOT$, but I have to believe that letting Dave and the others go was no easy decision. These people were key drivers in the success, quality, and growth of D&D products. They contributed to a game that turned many of my Saturdays into life-long memories, and I appreciate all of their efforts (even if I don't appreciate every title they worked on).