You guys want new players? Want to keep the industry thriving?
Check It Out:
When you go to "Dungeons and Dragons.com", there should be a big BUTTON that says HOW TO PLAY. That button should give you a FREE QUICK START PDF that...get this...SHOWS YOU HOW TO PLAY (ideally, using --gasp--- six sided dice that can be rustled up by anyone. Save the polyhedrals for the PHB, etc)
Then...
There can be another big button that says BUY THE GAME. That button can lead them to guess what...THE PLAYERS HANDBOOK. And a game store that sells DICE.
Yah...the site layout gets to me too. I still can't find my way back here from my Profile page, I just had to bookmark it and reclick that instead. Or hit 'Back' until it shows up...but if I've changed something or whatnot, then it can take longer than just reloading the whole kit'n'caboodle.
Oh right, I do see the Quick start PDF now.
Good work.
Check it:
1. MAKE IT USE SIX SIDERS. (gasp- blasphemy!)
2. STOP DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN THE RPG AND THE BOARD GAMES.
Its CONFUSING to a new customer who just wants to know...
WHAT DND IS.
You guys have a skirmish game, boardgames, CONFUUUSIINNNGGGG.......
This is serious?
Eh, I gotta sympathize with the OP to a certain extent. WotC's site is WAY too busy and is pretty confusing. There is all sorts of stuff on it you'll never find in 100 years.
That, and you gotta give it up for how god-awfully they've handled customer relations during edition changes. I get that edition changes are probably the hardest part of the business, from a customer service pov, but it often seems like they're not even trying.
Eh, I gotta sympathize with the OP to a certain extent. WotC's site is WAY too busy and is pretty confusing. There is all sorts of stuff on it you'll never find in 100 years.
That, and you gotta give it up for how god-awfully they've handled customer relations during edition changes. I get that edition changes are probably the hardest part of the business, from a customer service pov, but it often seems like they're not even trying.
Well, I sort of ducked the whole 3.x period, but the runup to 4e seems to have been pretty much "how not to do things". It isn't only their marketing though, they've made other huge boners over the years too.
Eh, I gotta sympathize with the OP to a certain extent. WotC's site is WAY too busy and is pretty confusing. There is all sorts of stuff on it you'll never find in 100 years.
That, and you gotta give it up for how god-awfully they've handled customer relations during edition changes. I get that edition changes are probably the hardest part of the business, from a customer service pov, but it often seems like they're not even trying.
I can assure you they are trying.
You can please some of the people all of the time.
You can please all of the people some of the time.
But you can't please all of the D&D player base at the same time.
At least not without some really in depth feedback.
I thought this thread was about the 4th edition fiasco of only lasting 3 years (and the what? 1 release this year). I'm still surprised a number of the staff have not been eliminated for a new one.
I'm wondering how the public playtest thing is bad marketing? People should know that the new marketing campaign begins a month or two before the release. Then you will see all the new features on the website, information being handed out, and the new marketing gimmick. Right now, Hasbaro is not going to spend any real money on marketing.
I think the OP's focus was the web site, which we all kind of agree needs better navigation.
Eh, I gotta sympathize with the OP to a certain extent. WotC's site is WAY too busy and is pretty confusing. There is all sorts of stuff on it you'll never find in 100 years.
That, and you gotta give it up for how god-awfully they've handled customer relations during edition changes. I get that edition changes are probably the hardest part of the business, from a customer service pov, but it often seems like they're not even trying.
I can assure you they are trying.
You can please some of the people all of the time.
You can please all of the people some of the time.
But you can't please all of the D&D player base at the same time.
At least not without some really in depth feedback.
If you mean the playtest, then yes, they are trying. However, I really don't see them attempting to ease the edition change outside of the playtest.
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Eh, I gotta sympathize with the OP to a certain extent. WotC's site is WAY too busy and is pretty confusing. There is all sorts of stuff on it you'll never find in 100 years.
That, and you gotta give it up for how god-awfully they've handled customer relations during edition changes. I get that edition changes are probably the hardest part of the business, from a customer service pov, but it often seems like they're not even trying.
I can assure you they are trying.
You can please some of the people all of the time.
You can please all of the people some of the time.
But you can't please all of the D&D player base at the same time.
At least not without some really in depth feedback.
If you mean the playtest, then yes, they are trying. However, I really don't see them attempting to ease the edition change outside of the playtest.
How do you provide customer support on a playtest without being seen as taking sides or being to wishy washy?
It's difficult to do so as a single poster who wants compromise. Can you imagine how it is for a company that everyone knows will make the final descision?
Take a look at how we treat each other on the forums and tell me how would you please us all?
I serioisly doubt I could do any better than they have.
Eh, I gotta sympathize with the OP to a certain extent. WotC's site is WAY too busy and is pretty confusing. There is all sorts of stuff on it you'll never find in 100 years.
That, and you gotta give it up for how god-awfully they've handled customer relations during edition changes. I get that edition changes are probably the hardest part of the business, from a customer service pov, but it often seems like they're not even trying.
I can assure you they are trying.
You can please some of the people all of the time.
You can please all of the people some of the time.
But you can't please all of the D&D player base at the same time.
At least not without some really in depth feedback.
If you mean the playtest, then yes, they are trying. However, I really don't see them attempting to ease the edition change outside of the playtest.
How do you provide customer support on a playtest without being seen as taking sides or being to wishy washy?
It's difficult to do so as a single poster who wants compromise. Can you imagine how it is for a company that everyone knows will make the final descision?
Take a look at how we treat each other on the forums and tell me how would you please us all?
I serioisly doubt I could do any better than they have.
Customer service isn't always about fixing things or what the final decision will be. One of the most important things is for customers to feel heard and valued, even customers who are not participating in the playtest.
So what is it specifically that you have encountered with customer service that you find lacking?
Granted Mecha, So what is it specifically that you have encountered with customer service that you find lacking?
The lack thereof. I played both 3e and 4e, and liked them both. I filled out the survey cards that were included in the backs of the books. I also was a DDI subscriber for a while (so I know WotC had my contact info). I never received any emails thanking me for my patronage of former editions, or received any other contact from the company. Even a simple questionnaire about what elements of the game I found most enjoyable, what mechanics were unwieldy, etc would have helped me feel like they were paying attention to what I wanted.
Eh, I gotta sympathize with the OP to a certain extent. WotC's site is WAY too busy and is pretty confusing. There is all sorts of stuff on it you'll never find in 100 years.
Possibly, but the WoTC web site is still superior to 90% of the sites out there (well... let's call it 80%).
Honestly, if the potential player has made it as far as the web site, Wizard's marketing department has already won. My beef with their marketing is that they don't do enough to attract new players; they seem to be on a mission to win back old customers, which I personally find almost offensive. I'd much rather they lured new players in with new concepts and directions for the game than see D&D regress in an attempt to appeal to the old fan base.
It's my belief that they are entirely focused on getting DDN tested and launched. Everything else is naturally gonna fall by the wayside. Still plenty of time for marketing. I'm betting they take a more down to earth approach this time though, no promising the sky (and failing to deliver).
They've made no big announcements for DDI for instance. I wouldn't be surprised if they simply haven't focused on it yet. I do wonder what their plans are though. I hate the way Insider is handled like a side project sometimes, rather than a straight-up endeavor.
It is simple common sense that, if I click on a Login button, I should be able to start typing my User ID without having to make another click in the User ID field.
The same goes for the Post Reply button on these forums; why do I have to then click, again, in the text area before I can start typing?
These are simple attributes to set and they tell me how much the designers really care (or not) about my browsing experience.
EDIT: Corrected a spelling error (another "pet peeve").
Granted Mecha, So what is it specifically that you have encountered with customer service that you find lacking?
The lack thereof. I played both 3e and 4e, and liked them both. I filled out the survey cards that were included in the backs of the books. I also was a DDI subscriber for a while (so I know WotC had my contact info). I never received any emails thanking me for my patronage of former editions, or received any other contact from the company. Even a simple questionnaire about what elements of the game I found most enjoyable, what mechanics were unwieldy, etc would have helped me feel like they were paying attention to what I wanted.
There is no such thing as a simple questionnaire... they did try that in the various columns of DDI in the past few years and you should have seen the discussions about those ;)
As for proactively contacting customers, I don't know about American laws, but I know European ones can pose a limit on such actions. I have heard marketing people in my department grumble about it at the time where they could not proactively offer reductions and special favors to existing customers. Mind you, I am not a marketeer and was not involved in that actual project, nor am I a lawyer, so I have no idea how correct the grumbler was ;)
Eh, I gotta sympathize with the OP to a certain extent. WotC's site is WAY too busy and is pretty confusing. There is all sorts of stuff on it you'll never find in 100 years.
Possibly, but the WoTC web site is still superior to 90% of the sites out there (well... let's call it 80%).
Honestly, if the potential player has made it as far as the web site, Wizard's marketing department has already won. My beef with their marketing is that they don't do enough to attract new players; they seem to be on a mission to win back old customers, which I personally find almost offensive. I'd much rather they lured new players in with new concepts and directions for the game than see D&D regress in an attempt to appeal to the old fan base.
Seems to me they've done everything they probably have the resources to do to get the word out to new players. 4e was a huge splash on the gaming scene, so certainly everyone old or new that pays any attention knew about it. It was all over social media, in every game and book store, promoted with Encounters, supported with LFR, and then promoted more with Lair Assault. They did special game days, etc etc etc. They put out a red box to go in toy stores. Short of some preposterously expensive media campaign that is simply NOT going to happen what else could they do to reach out to new players? Who ARE the potential new players?
The forum is having issues showing photos, so I have to include links.
When you go to "Dungeons and Dragons.com", there should be a big BUTTON that says HOW TO PLAY.
That button should give you a FREE QUICK START PDF that...get this...SHOWS YOU HOW TO PLAY
ideally, using --gasp--- six sided dice that can be rustled up by anyone.
Wait. You want them to write an entirely different system that ignored the polyhedrals? And you think that's the best use of a developer's time?
There can be another big button that says BUY THE GAME.
That button can lead them to guess what...THE PLAYERS HANDBOOK.
You mean the button I just showed you, which leads to this?
And a game store that sells DICE.
You mean by clicking on "Learn More", which leads to...
1. MAKE IT USE SIX SIDERS. (gasp- blasphemy!)
No, really unrealistic proposals are not "blasphemy". They're just unrealistic.
2. STOP DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN THE RPG AND THE BOARD GAMES.
Its CONFUSING to a new customer who just wants to know...
WHAT DND IS.
You guys have a skirmish game, boardgames, CONFUUUSIINNNGGGG.......
Yes, if only the main page at www.dungeonsanddragons.com has some button that answered the question "What is D&D?". Something like this, perhaps?
And wouldn't it be great if that button led to a separate webpage where each component of the D&D brand were explained -- RPGs, board games, videogames, and fiction -- so that people wouldn't find it so "CONFUUUSIINNGGGG"? Maybe something like this?
Sadly, Wizards just doesn't seem to want to put the effort in.
1. MAKE IT USE SIX SIDERS. (gasp- blasphemy!)
No, really unrealistic proposals are not "blasphemy". They're just unrealistic.2. STOP DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN THE RPG AND THE BOARD GAMES.
Its CONFUSING to a new customer who just wants to know...
WHAT DND IS.
You guys have a skirmish game, boardgames, CONFUUUSIINNNGGGG.......
Yes, if only the main page at www.dungeonsanddragons.com has some button that answered the question "What is D&D?". Something like this, perhaps?
And wouldn't it be great if that button led to a separate webpage where each component of the D&D brand were explained -- RPGs, board games, videogames, and fiction -- so that people wouldn't find it so "CONFUUUSIINNGGGG"? Maybe something like this?
Sadly, Wizards just doesn't seem to want to put the effort in.
He says stop differentiating between the roleplaying game and the board game... and you point out they are differentiated as if its some sort of point? His whole point is he just wants to know what D&D is about, if he doesn't know anything more about D&D than it's some fantasy thing, any one of those 4 options could be the core product, he has no idea where to look first. And yes, there are lots of people out there who actually do not know what a tabletop roleplaying game is.
Additionally, if you DO click on roleplaying games, and follow the link there, it takes you to: www.wizards.com/dnd/RPG.aspx where the first thing you see is a nice big advertisement for 1st edition D&D book reprints. This is what the OP was complaining about in the first post. That is the sort of thing that will confuse the **** out of a new player. From there, in addition to the 1st edition books, you also have 3.5 reprints, and a couple random splats, but nowhere on there do I see any advertisement for the 4th edition core or the 5th edition playtest.
Seriously this whole site is a mess, and I get lost looking for things frequently, despite having been registered here for years and being relatively internet savvy. While I wouldn't fire the marketting team for this, whoever designed the website should be sacked and they need to redesign the whole thing in a more intuitive and user friendly layout. The marketting department should be fired and replaced for completely different reasons.
BRAVO!!
He says stop differentiating between the roleplaying game and the board game... and you point out they are differentiated as if its some sort of point?
No, I point out there's an entire page devoted to explaining what the D&D brand is. See that parargraph above the four subcategories? It's a nice little encapsulation.
His whole point is he just wants to know what D&D is about, if he doesn't know anything more about D&D than it's some fantasy thing
Which is why the page explains what it is about. And then it explains that there are four components to the brand. So it does in fact not differentiates amongst the products until after it has explained whatthe brand is.
yes, there are lots of people out there who actually do not know what a tabletop roleplaying game is.
Wel, gee. It's a good thing the page I linked to explains what a tabletop roleplaying game is, then, right?
Additionally, if you DO click on roleplaying games, and follow the link there, it takes you to: www.wizards.com/dnd/RPG.aspx where the first thing you see is a nice big advertisement for 1st edition D&D book reprints. This is what the OP was complaining about in the first post. That is the sort of thing that will confuse the **** out of a new player.
Which is why the webpage as a big honking button in the middle fo the page that says "NEW TO D&D". If you're new to D&D, and you go to the webpage, maybe you should click on the link "NEW TO D&D?" before you go exploring through the other links. Unless you're suggesting the opening page should have no othe rlinks, lest a new player accidentally click on anything else and become confused.
Seriously this whole site is a mess, and I get lost looking for things frequently, despite having been registered here for years and being relatively internet savvy. While I wouldn't fire the marketting team for this, whoever designed the website should be sacked and they need to redesign the whole thing in a more intuitive and user friendly layout. The marketting department should be fired and replaced for completely different reasons.
Sigh. That you have a problem doesn't mean it's generally unintuitive. I figuredout the OP's concerns within three seconds... and by followign the suggestions he claims didn't work for him. You know why? Because he didn't actually look at the website very closely.
And that's not unusual. Lots of people -- particularly those who imagine themselves internet savvy -- figure they can just navigate around a website by clicking whatever strikes their fancy.
The webstie is fine. What, precisely, do you have probelms finding? Perhaps I can help with a ueful tutorial made form screencaps.
There should be a healthy amount of articles that help the DM with running the game, whether it's discussions about tactics, NPCs, etc. This should be offered for free, because you need to convince people the initial cost is worth it in the face of entertainment alternatives.
There should be more about advantages of roleplaying over computer games. Most people that I've seen don't see the value in playing RPGs over CRPGs. I've even had a person say, "Who doesn't like D&D, that's crazy" only to correct themselves, "Oh, I was talking about Baldur's Gate. The PnP stuff is silly."
There should be a healthy amount of articles that help the DM with running the game, whether it's discussions about tactics, NPCs, etc. This should be offered for free, because you need to convince people the initial cost is worth it in the face of entertainment alternatives.
You mean like the Dungeon Master Experience archives? You get to that by clicking on "Daily D&D" and then scroll down a little bit an you'll see a tab called "Free". That tab gives you all the free content. Among all the free content is the most recent DM Experience article. Click on the article headling and go to the most recent article. Or simply click on "DM Experience" and be taken to the archive of all the articles. A treasure trove of DM advice for free from Christopher Perkins, D&D's DM-in-Chief.
There should be more about advantages of roleplaying over computer games.
What would you suggest? D&D has been fighting the "You guys are silly" meme since 1974, and is an offshoot of miniature wargaming, which has been fighting the "You guys are silly" meme since H,G, Wells published Floor Games in 1911. If you know the way to stop people from thinking it's silly to sit around a table face to face with people and pretend you're an elf as you interact with a guy who is called the "dungeon master", I'm all ears ('cause you know, elf.)
"If you know the way to stop people from thinking it's silly to sit around a table face to face with people and pretend you're an elf as you interact with a guy who is called the "dungeon master", I'm all ears ('cause you know, elf.)"
If I knew the answer, I'd already be interviewing at WotC's marketing department. Seriously though, I think a lot of people don't see how playing a good adventure path can be very different, and much funner, than traveling through the low-AI, rather static world of a CRPG.
eta:
How about this? Give a lot of low level adventures of all sorts that showcase the value of roleplaying?
(I have no idea if this is a good suggestion or if it's been tried. Just throwing it out there.)
If I knew the answer, I'd already be interviewing at WotC's marketing department. Seriously though, I think a lot of people don't see how playing a good adventure path can be very different, and much funner, than traveling through the low-AI, rather static world of a CRPG.
Having played with many different DMs across many different editions and other RPGs, the sad conclusion that I've drawn is that with the average DM a PnP RPG is not more fun than a CRPG, and is often more boring to boot. It is only with the better DMs that a PnP RPG comes into its own.
The last time I looked into an Encounters game (admittedly about 2 years ago), my eyes glazed over from boredom at the dull monotone and lack of emotion from the DM.
I think a lot of people don't see how playing a good adventure path can be very different, and much funner, than traveling through the low-AI, rather static world of a CRPG.
Agreed. But because of the reputation of silliness, people don't try.
Give a lot of low level adventures of all sorts that showcase the value of roleplaying?
The people who think tabletop roleplaying is silly aren't shopping for adventures. The people curious about D&D have plenty of material available on the website.
And yes, it was tried. And tried. And tried.
My beef with their marketing is that they don't do enough to attract new players; they seem to be on a mission to win back old customers, which I personally find almost offensive. I'd much rather they lured new players in with new concepts and directions for the game than see D&D regress in an attempt to appeal to the old fan base.
Seems to me they've done everything they probably have the resources to do to get the word out to new players. 4e was a huge splash on the gaming scene, so certainly everyone old or new that pays any attention knew about it. It was all over social media, in every game and book store, promoted with Encounters, supported with LFR, and then promoted more with Lair Assault. They did special game days, etc etc etc. They put out a red box to go in toy stores.
Just about all of that targets old or lapsed players or the rare exiting gamer who hadn't yet tried D&D.
Short of some preposterously expensive media campaign that is simply NOT going to happen what else could they do to reach out to new players? Who ARE the potential new players?
Computer gamers, fans of fantasy novels and anction movies, fans of comic books, MMO players (thus "4e is an MMO!" - WotC /wishes/ it were, they'd be burried in money), and, of course, younger kids who haven't embraced a hobby yet. How to reach them? Not sure - maybe social media and conventions dedicated to some of those related things?
However, I do get the impression that 4e attracted a lot of new players. I'm guessing that the combined markets of D&D, Pathfinder, and retro-clones are significantly bigger than just the market for D&D in 2007. retro-clones & Pathfinder pulled existing D&Ders away from D&D. 4e must have attracted new players. IMPX, 4e is played by a younger crowd that 3.5 was. At my FLGS, encounters is running 3 tables - officially 18 players - and only 3 or 4 of us had been playing 3.5 when 4e came out. A couple had played AD&D back in the day and were lured back by the Red Box. The rest are new to the hobby, several via M:tG. I see the same thing at conventions. Pathfinder and older eds are as numerous (or post-Essentials, a little more numerous) as 4e, but the 4e players are younger on average. Of course, convention-goers tend to be older, I've seen the same faces at some conventions for the last 20-30 years.
Of course, it's easy to see the great failing of 4e in the success of Pathfinder (and retro-clones) - and that means trying to win back older customers.
Computer gamers, fans of fantasy novels and anction movies, fans of comic books, MMO players (thus "4e is an MMO!" - WotC /wishes/ it were, they'd be burried in money), and, of course, younger kids who haven't embraced a hobby yet. How to reach them? Not sure - maybe social media and conventions dedicated to some of those related things?
So....there is a significant number of potential fans who haven't heard that D&D exists?
If they don't have dice, then WotC should provide them with an on-line dice roller (which they still have).
D&D has a quickplay rules guide, which can be found by google searching "How to play D&D".
The D&D Red Box has a single player mode that teaches you how to play. This is still a good selling product, (at least that's what my FLGS owner told me).
In the middle of the front page it says "NEW TO D&D". Click it and follow the links to the "what is D&D", the quick start rules and 2 starting adventures. What more do you want?
Computer gamers, fans of fantasy novels and anction movies, fans of comic books, MMO players (thus "4e is an MMO!" - WotC /wishes/ it were, they'd be burried in money), and, of course, younger kids who haven't embraced a hobby yet. How to reach them? Not sure - maybe social media and conventions dedicated to some of those related things?
So....there is a significant number of potential fans who haven't heard that D&D exists?
Yes, exactly.
(Speaking from the 18-23 age group) Even people who have heard of D&D usually have no idea what it is, and are more likely to have negative associations with the brand name than positive ones (usually because of horror stories from misguided older relatives or stereotyping in entertainment). I only ever heard of it, because a childhood friend of mine's dad played when he was younger and gave my friend the 3e books for his birthday one year.
I'd say, at least 90% of the people I've played with had no idea what D&D was before that, except for those who had already heard me or other friends talk about it. As a DM, it's ridiculously easy for me to find players in the 18-23 age group (finding a DM, however, would be a whole other story).
We grew up with Orcarina of Time and spent ridiculous amounts of time trying to catch 150+ pokemon. To us, there is nothing silly about getting together with some friends, cracking a few beers, rolling some dice, and going on a f**king quest!
You know what Wizards of the Coast could actually use to help get newcomers into it just by visiting the site? An ad video. Something that shows what the game looks like in play. If there's one thing that's really hard for people to understand no matter what you say to them, it's "so how do you play it?" Heck, who needs a video? Just some photos or artwork of what D&D can look like generically would suffice.
But yeah, most of the OP's problems with the site are pretty baseless. Wizards of the Coast doesn't have a great marketing track record, but their site isn't one of their faults. It's pretty good.
Im back.
my issue is with the navigation of the WOTC site, but on a broader level its about them fracturing their fan base,and making it tough for new players to enter the game by creating the skirmish game and all these "sub games" and asking new customers/players to decide which one they want to find out more about.
newsflash:
DnD is ALREADY A MIX OF BOARDGAME, WARGAME, AND STORYTELLING GAME.
Heres the big thing marketing/development hasn't figured out yet:
WOTC can make products that emphasize the boardgaming ascpect (like a red box type thing) for new players unfamilar with rpg'ing, they can make products that emphasize the wargaming aspect (pre-painted boxes of minis and maps), when they want, and they can make products that emphasize flexibility and DM control (the PHB/DMG hardcovers).
WITHOUT changing the rules ENOUGH TO CALL IT A NEW GAME.
it AALLL needs to be ..just DND. one of the most recognizable brand names in the world.
Instead of being STYMIED that there are so many playing styles, WOTC can be USING THAT to reel in new players, and satisfy (well, almost) everyone.
and I stick by my guns: any quick start pdf offered online (and there needs to be one), needs to use six siders (use 3d6 for attacks? i dunno figure it out). Whats the average ten year old kid supposed to do when he downloads it? how many customers/new players were lost because a kid didnt want to bother buying dice or he put it off long enough to get distracted?
You know there are PLENTY of ways of making a dice roller without needing physical dice. Heck, there are several really good apps for most smart phones, which I would wager many people have access too. The core dice are pretty cheap. If anything, add a coupon to the books for a free set of generic dice, or set up a deal with Amazon. Changing the mechanics to only d6 is simply unnecessary.
Through that process, we have taught a few super n00bs how to play the game and have a bunch of fun in their first ever roleplaying game experiences. Through all of THAT, we have each and every one of us been to the official website, messed around with DDI and our findings have been:
Varied.
I find most websites pretty easy, informative and helpful. That is mostly because I have a low threshold for internet browsing joy. When I started playing, there was NO internet for getting new players and providing information and articles. We had Dragon Magazine and that was about it. All of the Internet is still gravy to me. Wizards doesn't really HAVE to even have an internet presence.
I'm also an architect, and I imagine that people in the tech industries have a very different experience surfing the web than I do, much like I have a very different experience walking down your average street than the rest of you mooks. :D I can see where houses could be better, streets laid out more efficiently, colours more palatable, etc. etc. etc. Websites are like that too. Seems like the more a person knows, the more apt they are to be critical of other people's work. Or at least they CAN be.
CONSTRUCTIVE (construction?) criticism is the hallmark of the internet day, and you need a LOT more honey than vinegar when chit chatting on forums, or you run the risk of being a "troll" and people don't take what you are saying seriously. Any thread that starts out as "WOTC, You SUCK...." is just bad form. Tsk tsk. Even if your points were super valid and insightful, it's just plain rude to "talk" like this to people.
Tsk to the tsk.
Oh, and the website could use some work to be more intuitive and easier to navigate. Sometimes I can't find the information I'm looking for very easily. ;P
- False promises - Don't say something is coming out and then not deliver. Virtual table is how i sold my group on 4e when it first came out. Not only has it not come out, but the beta for what is out looks terrible and is a beta.
- DDI - Is awful. It was barely tolerable when I could download it, but that was mostly because I found 4e unplayable without the character builder. When that went online only it was the last nail in that coffin for me.
- Terrible forum redesign - The gleemax thing was terrible, but even the new forums still have kinks that need working out.
- Why don't I see TV ads for next? Comedey central, G4, and adult swim should be crawling with them. Probably just cartoon network in general. Heck, we know the robot chicken guys like DND. Why is there not a robot chicken DND episode.
- How many famous people drop "Oh I totally play DND". Where is our celeb game? and no, the penny arcade guys don't count. I'm talking pull in Seth Green level guys. You probably can't get Vin, but that should be your ultimate goal. Here I did the leg work. www.edmplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t...
- Lets see the designers on the talk show circuit. Pump up this new edition, get people talking about it. I'd be suprised if Conan wouldn't have them on.
- I should see links on most of the big webcomics too.
- 4e was sold on "if you like older editions you are dumb because they were terrible". That would have worked if 4e was clearly and obviously better (older editions have a lot of bad ideas). It wasn't and alienated a lot of people. (4e has a lot of bad ideas too)
- Someone realized insulting the previous editions fanbase was a bad idea. 5e is being sold on "Its like all the bad stuff you disliked about previous editions". We (I) didn't stick to the older editions because they were perfect. I stuck to them because heavily house ruled 3.5 is the best system out there. Do you want a kick in the balls, or a punch in the arm? Arm I guess. Go in a new direction, take what we have learned from 4e, Saga, 3e, and so on. Move on to the best new edition possible. 5e seems marketed as one big Appeal to Tradition and thats not a good thing.
- Where is our 4e video game? How about a 5e tie in game announced to highlight the awesome new rules. Those are a big draw and I know tons of people who got into DND from neverwinter nights/balduars gate.
- Does DDO still use 3.X? How do you let that happen. 4e is already over, and the mmo still runs 3.X? Update that with some tweaks to get it running the new stuff. Even if its as basic as including a swordmage and avenger class.
And lastly their Website is godawful
- going to dungeonsanddragons.com because I am new to it and have no idea what DND is. I clik a floating toolbar in the middle of the page that says New to DND?. It then expands to What is/where is/how to/find. How does that make sense.
- Their website doesn't use a common layout that pretty much every website uses in some variation. Bar on the left or top. Click the button on bar and go to a new tab.
- The website is in widescreen format not landscape. Its jarring to suddenly find a 1 website on the entire internet that decides to swap it.
- Its super bloated and doesn't run well on slow machines. My POS laptop can't run it. Thats important because I bought it as a cheap tablet to browse the web only.
- Front and center is some ad for penny arcade or something. Clicking it takes me to their podcasts. I get that people like pennyarcade, but does the entirety of the front of your webpage need to be their logo?
- that main page ad/logo/picture is only a link if you click in the middle or close enough to the picture. It would be annoying if the entire page were a picture yes, but its even more annoying to have to click in specific hidden places for a link to work.
- Did you know that thing on the bottom with 3 pictures is all links, but not only that, you can hit the arrows and it slides a single frame over (should be all 3). I didn't know this unti just now.
- The only mention on the main page of DND next is the words "D&D next playtest". If you click it, it takes you to some facebook contest where you make a movie or something. WoTC knows full and well that when I click something from their mainpage that says "PLaytest DND Next" I don't want to enter their facebook contest, but am looking for their latest "open playtest" document. Maybe you could argue I am looking for generel Next info, but not their facebook contest. I hit this issue often with links I find on their site, this one was on the main page and I noticed it.
- In the top bar on the far right you can find the word playtest. Clicking this brings you to the next playtest, but it very well might bring you to current 4e playtest material. You don't know its 5e specific until you click it.
- Here are some RPG companies that have decent if lower budget websites. greenronin.com/ paizo.com/ www.palladiumbooks.com/
Fixes to the website. Put a bunch of tabs on the left. These tabs are "Books, The Game, Boardgames, D&D Insider, 5e DND Next, Forums, Previous Editions, Contact Us. Each tab is a button that when you click it takes you to a page dedicated to this topic. You can also hit a thing to expand each tab giving you a few subcatagories. Front and center is a daily article. It should dominate most of the page, but the rest of the page should be uniform in theme. The majority of this daily article shown should just be a picture or youtube video. Clicking it takes you to the full article. Under this zone you have 5-6 days back of older articles in a smaller size. One row, but its got an arrow you can hit to jump the entire list so you don't have to hit it repeatidly. At the bottom you have another zone where it is something like "Designers corner" and each lead designer can post an article a week with what they are currently working on. On the right you should include a log in box for DDI and forums, a store locator, a play by post community link, and lastly a "buy our stuff page". it should include a direct link to amazon for each item currently for sale. I googled "Great websites" and found some www.saddlebackleather.com/ www.hotelarcaluinoe.ro/ askmepc-webdesign.com/11-Rules-of-Websit... not only is that last one a good site, but its got some tips.
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Also lets get a big name fantasy movie out soon? Not like the one with the wayans brother, but at least that quality. Fantasy is big money these days, and you can get some epic trilogy out there. Set it in magi-punk eberron about a teen and his plucky friends going on an adventure and you're printing money.
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Also DND Cartoon styled after Avatar the LAB/teen titans. Why doesn't this exist.
***********edit
Also lets get a big name fantasy movie out soon? Not like the one with the wayans brother, but at least that quality. Fantasy is big money these days, and you can get some epic trilogy out there. Set it in magi-punk eberron about a teen and his plucky friends going on an adventure and you're printing money.
***edit 2
Also DND Cartoon styled after Avatar the LAB/teen titans. Why doesn't this exist.
- Why don't I see TV ads for next? Comedey central, G4, and adult swim should be crawling with them. Probably just cartoon network in general. Heck, we know the robot chicken guys like DND. Why is there not a robot chicken DND episode.
It amazes me how many people here (and in the PA podcast thread) have the idea that they are trying to market 5N now.
The game is not out yet. The game is over a year from being out. The game may be as much as two years from being out.
They most likely are not even completely sure exactly when it is coming out.
They are not in marketing mode. They are not interested in advertising/ selling 5N to anyone. This is a playtest.
Mike Mearls is not trying to sell the game when he makes appearances - he is trying to inform those who already know about it. If they were to buy TV time, they wouldn't be advertising 5N anyway.
Granted - they are trying to generate some 'buzz'. But you don't generate 'buzz' by advertising or sending PR people out to do interviews. You generate buzz by getting a small group of people invested in and talking about the product - and let their word of mouth do the rest.
Marketing comes later - when you have a finished product to show.
All that said - I agree: They have an annoyingly crappy website.
Carl
and I stick by my guns: any quick start pdf offered online (and there needs to be one), needs to use six siders (use 3d6 for attacks? i dunno figure it out). Whats the average ten year old kid supposed to do when he downloads it? how many customers/new players were lost because a kid didnt want to bother buying dice or he put it off long enough to get distracted?
You know there are PLENTY of ways of making a dice roller without needing physical dice. Heck, there are several really good apps for most smart phones, which I would wager many people have access too. The core dice are pretty cheap. If anything, add a coupon to the books for a free set of generic dice, or set up a deal with Amazon. Changing the mechanics to only d6 is simply unnecessary.
I think you're kind of missing rocketboy's point here. A lot of people who have never played before D&D believe that all dice have 6 sides. D&D is already intimidating for new players. A quick start introduction that uses 6-sided dice is not a bad idea at all.
Obviously not for the main game, or even the basic boxed set, but for an online pdf for new players it'd be great. Someone who isn't sure whether or not they'd like D&D but wants to give it a try won't necessarily want to bother figuring out where to buy gaming dice or to spend time downloading a good dice rolling app.
on a broader level its about them fracturing their fan base
Making board games and skirmish games did not "fracutre" te fan base. It expanded it. Really, he board games have been getting all sorts of good press and people who got the board games have come onto these forums asking about the related RPGs. It's one of the few things I've seen in 30 years of D&D that successfully got people to try the game.
It's possibly the single best marketing move that Wizards has done to promote the brand, and that's the one thing you singled out as requiring someone to be fired?!
In a nutshell: you're wrong. You're asking Wizards to undo the one bona fide success they've had in the D&D brand in eight years.
making it tough for new players to enter the game by creating the skirmish game and all these "sub games" and asking new customers/players to decide which one they want to find out more about.
It has not made it tough for new players. It's expanded the brand and made it possible for people who may never have found the RPG to look into it. I can't express how awfully wrong you are on this score. Your recommendation may be the single worst idea I've heard marketing-wise for the brand.
Instead of being STYMIED that there are so many playing styles, WOTC can be USING THAT to reel in new players, and satisfy (well, almost) everyone.
That's what they did. You are simply wrong. The board games and skirmish games have increased the brand.
We can argue if D&D should spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on television ads they can't afford in a high-risk gamble to mainstream D&D. (I think it's a ridicuous idea that will not work, but I could be wrong. I'm not willing to gamble D&D's entire marketing budget on such a gamble though.)
I stick by my guns: any quick start pdf offered online (and there needs to be one), needs to use six siders (use 3d6 for attacks? i dunno figure it out). Whats the average ten year old kid supposed to do when he downloads it? how many customers/new players were lost because a kid didnt want to bother buying dice or he put it off long enough to get distracted?
Chits. Online dice-rollers. amazon.com. There's thousands of ways a kid can roll polyhedrals without inventing an entirely new game that won't play like D&D that only uses six-siders. I mean, here you are in the firstpost complaining that D&D is fracturing the base by making too many games, and now you want them to create a totally new roleplaying game that will be completely incompatible with the main game. It's insanity.
Why don't I see TV ads for next? Comedey central, G4, and adult swim should be crawling with them. Probably just cartoon network in general. Heck, we know the robot chicken guys like DND. Why is there not a robot chicken DND episode.
Money. You don't see commercials for D&D because D&D is a tiny brand whose revenues will probably never ever ever justify a 15-second spot on public access, much less basic cable.
Where is our celeb game?
Back when 4e was being released they did a celebrity game that included Elijah Wood. That's right. Frodo. Who had starred in Lord of the Rings -- the most successful mainstreamed fantasy movie series of all time. Do you remember the hype around it? I do. Do you know anybody drawn into the game because they heard Elijah Wood was in a celebrity D&D game? I don't. Why?
Because watching other celebrities (or anybody) play D&D is like watching celebrities play golf. It's only interesting to the people who already play. It's not going to engender interest in the mainstream. Watching D&D is boring, particularly if you don't already play. Video tutorials, pictorials, etc. have all been tried. They always flame out in ignominy.
Perkins' Acquisitions Incorporated series is fun only to dedicated fans (and even then to only a small subset) and only because they make jokes constantly and break character. Otherwise it would be deathly. Watching Vin Diesel, Matt Damon, and Ben Affleck play would be a novelty to existing D&D players (and ridiculously expensive to arrange) but would garner no new players.
These threads are almost always simply a exercise in people saying what they'd love to see regardless of if it makes sense. rocketboy hates the idea of skirmish and board gaes, so he decides they must be bad marketing. Someone would love to see a professional D&D commercial, so they decide it would be good marketing. Someone decides that he'd love to see the cast of Goow Will Hunting traipse through the Tomb of Horrors, so it must be good marketing.
The folks at Wizards know marketing. They manage to keep a collectible card game in the forefront of geekdom through several generational cohorts. Have you ever seen a Magic the Gathering tv commercial? Maybe once or twice. Magic's sales dwarf D&D's sales by many magnitudes. It's not going to happen. You might as well tell them to include real gold as props.
Can the forums be improved? Sure. Do forums bring in new players? Heck, no. They serve to support existing players. Should Wizards not overpromise? Absolutely. Should they not repeat past mistakes? Yes. Should they listen to any of the recommendations in this thread? No. No, they should definitely not.
Do forums bring in new players? Constantly. We constantly have new people signing up here saying "I just bought X, Y, and Z walk me through it". If the forums were easier we'd have more. Without the forums to walk the new guys through it, many of them would give up.
Celeb game might be boring, but what about some sort of celeb testimonial spots. Have them sit and narrate their favorite parts about DND or awesome moments for a 45 seconds each and bang through 4-5 per ad.
Celeb game might jog some older players back into the hobby. If nothing else you can probably get some dedicated celeb fans for pretty cheap. Tape it, throw it on youtube and just get the name out there. Then when someone walks in on their roommate and says "What is this" they can launch the conversation of "Its a DND game, I used to play and Vin Diesel and Joss Whedon are playing and its interesting" "Oh whats DND" "Its awesome, we should play sometime Ill go buy books".
Money. You don't see commercials for D&D because D&D is a tiny brand whose revenues will probably never ever ever justify a 15-second spot on public access, much less basic cable.
I'd say the inverse. They have no money because they don't advertise anywhere. We have tried the don't advertise ever method and it doesn't work so well. Now lets try the other.
I don't know if they felt that money was well spent or not.
I woudn't be surprised if they do the same for 5N.
I also think some limited air time in the TV market might be well spent - but TV is expensive and I'm not qualified to second guess marketing decisions like that. If they did, I would assume cable channels with demographics that fit well with the gamer profile (Syfy, for example).
It is true that the peak of D&D popularity coincided with the time when they used to run TV ads (and have TV cartoons on TV and sell tons of D&D-themed non-gaming products).
But marketing costs and payoffs change.
Carl
Neverwinter (formerly The Next Neverwinter, officially the third title in the Neverwinter Nights series) is a full fledged MMO that uses 4E rules and is scheduled to come out sometime late this year. Large games take a little while to crank out. It was announced in 2010. In 2011 it went from co-op mulitplayer to F2P MMO with microtransactions, so that has also delayed release.
DDO is run by Turbine, who bought the rights to use 3.5 Ed for their game. They decided not to switch over to 4E in the middle of their game's lifecycle, and WotC can't really force them to.
Think how many MMOs have met this fate. The latest that I can think of is SW:TOR. It goes free to play soon, because(phenomenal as it is supposed to be) it didn't deliver on its promises. Age of Conan the same.
Generating excitement for a game before it is even developed, when it is really just a wish list, also has a downside. You publish a list of goals that must then be met, or the game is a "failure."
Notice how they are backing away from the, "One edition to bind them all," and adopting something more akin to, "If you don't like the new system, that's ok. Play the one you love." I think they have realized that trying to unite all players in one edition is a pipe dream. Now, they just need to focus on creating a game that can please lots of people.
on a broader level its about them fracturing their fan base
Making board games and skirmish games did not "fracutre" te fan base. It expanded it.
are you sure about this? I'd be curious to know if this is true, actually based on sales figures, and not just your opinion. In any case, any board game or skirmish game they created MUST SURELY BENEFIT FROM BEING CALLED DND, and in actual practice, basically BEING DND.
I'm sure this isnt nitpicking. I imagine that tons of customers/new gamers were lost when they were browsing their local comic game store and walked right by "Chainmail", where as they might have purchased the "DND skirmish game"
Right now theres kids looking at "Dungeon Command" in toys stores and thinking- "is this that DnD thing I heard of? Hmm....I dunno- it SAYS DND on top, but it also says DUNGEON COMMAND. Hmmm....I dunno...I wanted to try DND... Lemme go buy another Beyblade".
DND is ALREADY A NICHE MARKET.
Stop making new, tinier niches.
DND UNITE!
DDI - Is awful. It was barely tolerable when I could download it, but that was mostly because I found 4e unplayable without the character builder. When that went online only it was the last nail in that coffin for me.
The DDI is a tool created to supplement your experience. It does that job admirably. They aren't making enough money off of it to justify making the experience slick and amazing like a video game. Regardless, the Character Builders is vastly superior to every other one I have ever seen. It's not perfect and it can be refined but don't come in expecting perfection. It is a supplementary tool, that is all.
Why don't I see TV ads for next? Comedey central, G4, and adult swim should be crawling with them. Probably just cartoon network in general. Heck, we know the robot chicken guys like DND. Why is there not a robot chicken DND episode.
Ads are expensive and garner very little reliable response. TV isn't what the marketing should be focusing on. Rather it should target ads on websites that have a geek crowd. And they have and continue to do that.
How many famous people drop "Oh I totally play DND". Where is our celeb game? and no, the penny arcade guys don't count. I'm talking pull in Seth Green level guys. You probably can't get Vin, but that should be your ultimate goal. Here I did the leg work. www.edmplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t...
You're not going to get Seth Green, let alone an A List celebrity, to do it because he will demand a ton of money. D&D makes 30 million dollars a year. Hasbro demands most of that money as tribute. WotC simply isn't as big as you think it is.
Lets see the designers on the talk show circuit. Pump up this new edition, get people talking about it. I'd be suprised if Conan wouldn't have them on.
You have got to be kidding me.
I should see links on most of the big webcomics too.
They pay for ads on Webcomic sites when they have something worthy of note.
4e was sold on "if you like older editions you are dumb because they were terrible". That would have worked if 4e was clearly and obviously better (older editions have a lot of bad ideas). It wasn't and alienated a lot of people. (4e has a lot of bad ideas too)
That is not how D&D was sold to the masses. That is how the grognards interpreted the sudden edition change.
Someone realized insulting the previous editions fanbase was a bad idea. 5e is being sold on "Its like all the bad stuff you disliked about previous editions". We (I) didn't stick to the older editions because they were perfect. I stuck to them because heavily house ruled 3.5 is the best system out there. Do you want a kick in the balls, or a punch in the arm? Arm I guess. Go in a new direction, take what we have learned from 4e, Saga, 3e, and so on. Move on to the best new edition possible. 5e seems marketed as one big Appeal to Tradition and thats not a good thing.
Your feelings about 3.x are irrelevant. It is the best to YOU and you alone. Hordes of people disagree with you.
Does DDO still use 3.X? How do you let that happen. 4e is already over, and the mmo still runs 3.X? Update that with some tweaks to get it running the new stuff. Even if its as basic as including a swordmage and avenger class.
WotC cannot force other companies to change their game unless it says so in the contract. No game company would agree to that, ever. Hence why DDO is still 3.5 (for those few brave souls who still play that game).
And lastly their Website is godawful
- going to dungeonsanddragons.com because I am new to it and have no idea what DND is. I clik a floating toolbar in the middle of the page that says New to DND?. It then expands to What is/where is/how to/find. How does that make sense.
- Their website doesn't use a common layout that pretty much every website uses in some variation. Bar on the left or top. Click the button on bar and go to a new tab.
- Its super bloated and doesn't run well on slow machines. My POS laptop can't run it. Thats important because I bought it as a cheap tablet to browse the web only.
Go to the Magic site. It is the same as the D&D site. This is WotC's idea, not the D&D staff's. It is a terrible site trying to be too many things at once. The old site, though not as flashy, was superior.
Front and center is some ad for penny arcade or something. Clicking it takes me to their podcasts. I get that people like pennyarcade, but does the entirety of the front of your webpage need to be their logo?
The PA/PVP podcasts are immensely popular and brought hordes of people to give 4th edition a try. It makes total sense that they would be featured prominently.
The only mention on the main page of DND next is the words "D&D next playtest". If you click it, it takes you to some facebook contest where you make a movie or something. WoTC knows full and well that when I click something from their mainpage that says "PLaytest DND Next" I don't want to enter their facebook contest, but am looking for their latest "open playtest" document. Maybe you could argue I am looking for generel Next info, but not their facebook contest. I hit this issue often with links I find on their site, this one was on the main page and I noticed it.
- In the top bar on the far right you can find the word playtest. Clicking this brings you to the next playtest, but it very well might bring you to current 4e playtest material. You don't know its 5e specific until you click it.
WotC doesn't want new people to get confused or even realize a new edition is on its way. That's bad for business. The playtest is for vets eyes only.
Here are some RPG companies that have decent if lower budget websites. greenronin.com/ paizo.com/ www.palladiumbooks.com/
Paizo's website, especially their forum, is terrible. Green Ronin's website tells you nothing you want to know. Paladium's is not that bad but the amount of content there pales in comparison to D&D's site.
Fixes to the website. Put a bunch of tabs on the left. These tabs are "Books, The Game, Boardgames, D&D Insider, 5e DND Next, Forums, Previous Editions, Contact Us. Each tab is a button that when you click it takes you to a page dedicated to this topic. You can also hit a thing to expand each tab giving you a few subcatagories. Front and center is a daily article. It should dominate most of the page, but the rest of the page should be uniform in theme. The majority of this daily article shown should just be a picture or youtube video. Clicking it takes you to the full article. Under this zone you have 5-6 days back of older articles in a smaller size. One row, but its got an arrow you can hit to jump the entire list so you don't have to hit it repeatidly. At the bottom you have another zone where it is something like "Designers corner" and each lead designer can post an article a week with what they are currently working on. On the right you should include a log in box for DDI and forums, a store locator, a play by post community link, and lastly a "buy our stuff page". it should include a direct link to amazon for each item currently for sale. I googled "Great websites" and found some www.saddlebackleather.com/ www.hotelarcaluinoe.ro/ askmepc-webdesign.com/11-Rules-of-Websit... not only is that last one a good site, but its got some tips.
That's actually a very old style of web design that isn't "hot" or "fresh". The general populace accepts clunky as long as it looks snazzy. As unfortunate as that is. Additionally, your design is essentially exactly what D&D USED to have. Like I said earlier, it was clearly superior.
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Also lets get a big name fantasy movie out soon? Not like the one with the wayans brother, but at least that quality. Fantasy is big money these days, and you can get some epic trilogy out there. Set it in magi-punk eberron about a teen and his plucky friends going on an adventure and you're printing money.
***edit 2
Also DND Cartoon styled after Avatar the LAB/teen titans. Why doesn't this exist.
I totally 100% agree that WoTC needs marketing help. Heres a bulleted list in no paticular order.
- False promises - Don't say something is coming out and then not deliver. ...
- ...
- ...
- Why don't I see TV ads for next? ...
- Where is our celeb game? ....
- Lets see the designers on the talk show circuit. Pump up this new edition, get people talking about it.
- I should see links on most of the big webcomics too.
- ...
- ...
- ...
I must admit I found it highly ironic to see a poster object to - within the same post - both promising things and not delivering on those promises and not advertising the product (before it was complete).
Perhaps they wanted to wait till it was complete before advertising it, so they wouldn't be promising features that didn't make it into the game?
Carl
Making board games and skirmish games did not "fracutre" te fan base. It expanded it.
are you sure about this? I'd be curious to know if this is true, actually based on sales figures, and not just your opinion.
As sure as anything I can be sure of in a world in which Wizards won't share sales figures. Folks who left Wizards recently and were asked about their tenure here have said one of the things they were most proud of was the performance of the board games, which sold well on their own (and have won awards) and, their sales research indicated, were pushing people into becoming D&D players.
Thse people have little reason to lie. They didn't work for the company and they had a lot of other stuff they could use for self-promotion. So, yes, I'm pretty secure in that info.
So you can continue to tell D&D to enlarge their market by shrinking the number of products they sell, and I'm fairly certain they will continue to ignore you in favor of the actual sales numbers they have.
Krusk, I can answer two of your questions. Neverwinter (formerly The Next Neverwinter, officially the third title in the Neverwinter Nights series) is a full fledged MMO that uses 4E rules and is scheduled to come out sometime late this year. Large games take a little while to crank out. It was announced in 2010. In 2011 it went from co-op mulitplayer to F2P MMO with microtransactions, so that has also delayed release. DDO is run by Turbine, who bought the rights to use 3.5 Ed for their game. They decided not to switch over to 4E in the middle of their game's lifecycle, and WotC can't really force them to.
Those are both seperate bad ideas. Neverwinter being released on 4e rules at the end of 4e doesn't pump people for 5e. It makes them interested in 4e. Push the game back a few years, and put it on 5e -esque rules.
Turbine - This was a bad move on WoTC's part not saying "you will update to whatever the current core system is if we do a 4e" but you've got to move past it. There should still have been some initaitive to get turbine onto 4e.
If you can't get your video games using rules that resemble your other games, don't release the video games.
Note there are mods for NWN2 to make it 4e like. A patch with people paid to do it would take little investment.
The DDI is a tool created to supplement your experience. It does that job admirably....It's not perfect and it can be refined but don't come in expecting perfection. It is a supplementary tool, that is all.
As a supplimentary tool, that isn't perfect or even good it needs to be cheaper/free. If its perfect/good charge money for it. As it stands its not worth any money.
Ads are expensive and garner very little reliable response. TV isn't what the marketing should be focusing on. Rather it should target ads on websites that have a geek crowd. And they have and continue to do that.
I've see no DND ads that weren't generated using google ad sense to realize I had just come from this site. I browse a lot of geek websites.
You're not going to get Seth Green, let alone an A List celebrity, to do it because he will demand a ton of money.
You've got plenty of people who would work for a chance at an internship or some BS. Put one of them on the line and grab my list. Start calling their agents and go down the line. You can come up with some celebs who are interested in some free nerd cred and publicity. They go to comic con and do their best to be photographed looking like they enjoy it, why wouldn't they do it on an ad for cheap. Call the ad a youtube short and have it be something like "We found out Seth Green loves DND, so we let him run a game. Here are the results!" Also Gaebler http://www.gaebler.com/National-TV-Spot-Ad-Costs.htm says its fairly cheap. I assume thats a fact because its on the internet.
talk shows
Its usually done as publicity for their group. I've seen conan interview this weird store from new york that sells oddities. The market for that is probably way less than the market for DND. I've actually been to that store and its neat, but there is no way they are as big as DND.
That is not how D&D was sold to the masses. That is how the grognards interpreted the sudden edition change.
I like the name calling and all, but did you see the cartoons? And all the talks about how terrible 3.5 was? I mean, they were right. 3.5 is pretty bad, but to then not fix much, and make worse problems is a pretty big let down.
5e seems marketed as one big Appeal to Tradition and thats not a good thing.Your feelings about 3.x are irrelevant. It is the best to YOU and you alone. Hordes of people disagree with you.
You skipped the actual important part of what you quoted. Also, its not best to me, or even me alone. I said it was a great base for some solid house rules to make the best system. But also, the 3.5 community is going fairly strong. I don't personally know anyone still playing 4e. I do see it played in shops on occasion.
Go to the Magic site. It is the same as the D&D site. This is WotC's idea, not the D&D staff's.
Thats not a valid reason for it being terrible. Thats an excuse and passing the buck. Also note my complaint was addressed to WoTC, not DND.
That's actually a very old style of web design that isn't "hot" or "fresh".
Didn't say it was. I said it was standard that people were used to, and it also happens to be better.
Sure LotR is great but how many live action movies have we seen since then that have been big hits? What about on TV?
Game of Thrones? The Hobbit will be big. I hear Harry Potter is big. Pirates of the Carribean was #5 top grossing last year. Immortals was number 38. This year Brave is number 5, Snow White was 10, Wrath of the Titans was 19, John Carter 21. I don't actually watch TV so I can't come up with more than GoT but thats pretty big, right?
When you switch to animated, you're up against forces that a D&D license can't compete with, like Adventure Time, The Last Airbender and hordes of Anime (like Naruto).
All more fantasy TV shows. More importantly, the first two were super popular. I assume naruto is popular too. Magi-punk harry potter with swords would also be popular. There is your eberron TV show.
The better route would be to try to go for a viral web-show. It can be made dirt cheap, you can hire some really great writers and artists. It could be amazing.
So go at that, show that people are into it, and use it as a primer for a TV series.
I must admit I found it highly ironic to see a poster object to - within the same post - both promising things and not delivering on those promises and not advertising the product (before it was complete).
Carl, You can advertise without promising things. "We are coming out with 5e soon and it will be the bees knees". Now all I've promised is that people will enjoy a new product that is being released.
Saying "We are going to release an awesome virtual table top that looks like this demo shortly after the release of our game." is very different.
Also, why have they not taken that video down?
Krusk, I can answer two of your questions. Neverwinter (formerly The Next Neverwinter, officially the third title in the Neverwinter Nights series) is a full fledged MMO that uses 4E rules and is scheduled to come out sometime late this year. Large games take a little while to crank out. It was announced in 2010. In 2011 it went from co-op mulitplayer to F2P MMO with microtransactions, so that has also delayed release. DDO is run by Turbine, who bought the rights to use 3.5 Ed for their game. They decided not to switch over to 4E in the middle of their game's lifecycle, and WotC can't really force them to.Those are both seperate bad ideas. Neverwinter being released on 4e rules at the end of 4e doesn't pump people for 5e. It makes them interested in 4e. Push the game back a few years, and put it on 5e -esque rules.
Turbine - This was a bad move on WoTC's part not saying "you will update to whatever the current core system is if we do a 4e" but you've got to move past it. There should still have been some initaitive to get turbine onto 4e.
If you can't get your video games using rules that resemble your other games, don't release the video games.
Note there are mods for NWN2 to make it 4e like. A patch with people paid to do it would take little investment.
I think you might have some unrealistic expectations of the modern gaming market. DDO launched in February 2006, long before anybody thought of 4E. It is based on the world of Eberron, which didn't have a 4E ruleset until June 2009. Nobody in the history of MMOs that I know of has completely changed their ruleset after 3.5 years on the market. The closest thing to that was SoE's NGE for Star Wars Galaxies, a patch which ended up killing the game. Turbine never would have agreed to being forced to update their game to a new edition, no matter how much money they were offered. It would have been MMO suicide.
Neverwinter was announced in 2010, and likely started production in 2009. This is less than 2 years after 4E came out. It takes time to make a game, even a bad one. Diablo 3, a game with poor graphics and loads of gameplay issues, was announced in 2008 and just came out earlier this year. Honestly, I worry that Neverwinter is going to be garbage simply based on its short development cycle. Very few people make an MMO in 3 years, and Neverwinter not only is scheduled to do so, it is scheduled to do so even after a major gameplay change.
Neverwinter Nights is no MMO. It doesn't have the same graphics requirements in terms of wireframes, polygon counts, or a host of graphics issues which take a lot of time and developer hours to work on. A single rules patch for an old ARPG is easy. Revamping or making a new MMO is not.