There is a certain propensity on these boards to over-react to criticism, but this- not even letting people have a say, no matter how ridiculous- takes the cake.
In my experience it's not so much that the threads were complaining about 4e, but the manner in which they did so. Upon reading the closed threads, the OP in each seemed to be attempting an Edition War, which I think everyone can agree we would like to avoid. (I know I have no desire to relive those days.) Reasoned, respectful criticism of 4e is always welcome, and there have been very large threads of just that. Look at Warweaver's thread for an example.
I can understand some threads being closed because of baiting or other CoC abuses, however the last thread that was closed here was, while not well reasoned, a post that failed to break these codes in my opinion,(perhaps I am wrong?),- yet was closed due to the complaints of people on these threads. While seemingly it would be easy to tear this poster apart on the basic problems inherent in his post, it was not- rather it was closed due to complaints. Does this seem fair to you? Why would you complain about a post that is far from being a serious threat? I am not trying to be a **** I am just wondering why?
The "4e is a video game" argument is one that has, many times over, shown itself to lead to flaming and general bad vibes on the boards. Making a thread just to bring it up could be seen as a mild attempt at edition war. If that wasn't the intent then it's a shame that the thread got locked rather than allowing discussion, but it's better to err on the side of caution, IMHO, given how nasty the Edition Wars got.
Yes, but shouldn't the thread be given a chance before it is preemptively stricken from the board. If and when it falls into flame war certainly it should be locked, but locking it before seems rather unjust. Caution is all well and good but this is the assumption of guilt before innocence.
After enough threads with the same topic following the same pattern, it could be said that it's not guilty until proven innocent, but rather a form of inductive reasoning. If enough threads with a given topic (in this case close to if not 100%) have gone to flame war, then it's not unfair to assume that other threads with that topic will as well.
But what if it does not this time? Can you be sure that it would? You may be able to assume it would but this is still not proof. This is not inductive reasoning but inductive presumption on your part.
But what if it does not this time? Can you be sure that it would? You may be able to assume it would but this is still not proof. This is not inductive reasoning but inductive presumption on your part.
Inductive reasoning and inductive presumption are one and the same. Effectively it sums to drawing a universal conclusion when that universal conclusion is valid of all known examples. Admittedly there have been some people who didn't use a videogame analogy as a means to start an edition war (there have been a few which have tried to do such a comparison in a positive light), but they always end with people bickering about the topic, and virtually always in the form of an edition war. When 100% of all instances of this topic have ended with flames, what are the odds that this one won't?
As an aside to all this, I have to mention that I used to go to the World of Warcraft forums for my drama, and I now come here because it has more active drama...btw that was not a stab at how D&D is like a video game...not at all :P ( I kid, I honestly do not think that of 4th edition, in fact if anything 4th has enabled me to do some stuff for my homebrew stuff that I couldn't do before)
What is the deal with this? Some "insert expletive here" comes along and bashes 4e at the intellectual equivalency level of a grade schooler and people feel it is necessary to report the thread. Why? Who are these tattle-tale hall monitors that feel so threatened that they must report these bad kids?
Just to make sure I understand your position, are you complaining about people complaining?
The other thing is if the poster is the same poster over and over again creating virtually the same thread, in most forums that gets one completely banned, and if you are talking about a specific set of threads by a particular individual, then he is lucky he hasn't been banned from these forums for constantly bringing up a topic that has already been locked. Hell, on some forums even discussing a locked thread will get the new thread locked and the poster banned.
As an aside to all this, I have to mention that I used to go to the World of Warcraft forums for my drama, and I now come here because it has more active drama...btw that was not a stab at how D&D is like a video game...not at all :P ( I kid, I honestly do not think that of 4th edition, in fact if anything 4th has enabled me to do some stuff for my homebrew stuff that I couldn't do before)
Oh no, it's not a case of "D&D is like videogames"... it's a case of "the D&D forums are like every other forum on the internet". It has all the benefits and problems that every forum on earth has, and that's the Troof™.
What is the deal with this? Some "insert expletive here" comes along and bashes 4e at the intellectual equivalency level of a grade schooler and people feel it is necessary to report the thread. Why? Who are these tattle-tale hall monitors that feel so threatened that they must report these bad kids?
There is a certain propensity on these boards to over-react to criticism, but this- not even letting people have a say, no matter how ridiculous- takes the cake.
They're trolls. Their goal is not to generate discussion but to get attention for themselves.
The correct way to deal with trolls is to prevent their posts from being responded to, because people will invariably and inevitably respond to trolling. You also ban the trolls in question, but they can typically get around bans if they actually care enough to do so, so locking their threads is a necessary step in depriving them of the attention they so desperately crave, and ergo getting rid of them as they no longer get what they come for. You ban them as well, as some trolls don't know how to ban evade or won't go through the bother of doing so, but locking posts is a part of any comprehensive troll control program.
This is why these posts are reported, in order to get the trolls banned and get the threads shut down.
It has nothing to do with defensiveness and everything to do with getting rid of the trolls. We know they're idiots, we don't want them here, and the best way of getting rid of them is denying them attention, and locking threads is the only way to prevent them from getting that attention.
So you have completely the wrong idea about why the threads are being locked. The trolls may see it as validation, but after a while they'll get bored if they don't get any responses due to all their threads being locked quickly, so they'll go away. As the trolls are worthless, we don't care if they feel validated or not, we just care that they aren't here anymore and thus are no longer capable of being disruptive.
Haven't you figured it out yet?
The pro people complain about a thread (whether it actually needs it or not) that they don't like and... voila! Thread locked!
It's a way of saying "It's my ball and we will play my way or I take my ball and go home."
Oh please, it's nothing to do with that and you know it. It's the tone of the posts. Warweaver (up until yesterday at least) has always been polite, respectful, logical and had well thought out and backed up arguments. And, because of that, despite being an avid nay-sayer of 4e, he was one of the most respected forum members around.
And he created a huge "anti"-4e thread, talking about his problems with the system, his likes, dislikes, possible fixes, what he wanted to see in subsequent splats, how he wanted to see the game improved in later editions. And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that thread, despite being basically an anti-4e thread, got to over 60 pages and ran for a few months at least.
"Not agreeing with someone is NOT trolling/baiting. Someone doesn't like something in 4e, it doesn't mean they're trolling/baiting, even if they engage in that behavior in other threads." -Webster, Senior Volunteer Community Lead.
If they engage in that behaviour in other threads (and let's be honest with ourselves here, other accounts) then it's easier to assume they're going to continue trolling, rather than suddenly have a massive change of heart and try to be constructive and contribute to the conversation.
Who are these tattle-tale hall monitors that feel so threatened that they must report these bad kids?
Right here.
Although I did not participate in the reporting of the series of spam-troll threads to which you are specifically referring, as they occurred when I was asleep, I would have reported them.
Weed control begins at the first emergence of a single weed.
First off, he's Trolling. He starts a Thread twice with the same title trying to come off as a martyr, which is stupid. I report one of them for being excess clutter, and the other quickly devolves into flame-bait; both are Closed per the CoC.
Then he starts off a Thread called, "I am soooo right, see?" Wherein he makes a public complaint about the ORCs, which is also against the CoC, and he makes more reference to how much sacrifice he's making in the name of his forbidden knowledge!
Again, pure idiocy and/or Trolling.Lastly, he starts up a Thread with no more basis in reality than a Thread titled, "3.5 is just a Video Game!!1!" He words it with pure opinion, it's just another Whine-fest Thread, and people are now just tired of hearing him Troll. They report him for Trolling/Baiting in general, by this point I'm sure even the ORCs are tired of him, and his Thread is Closed.
This is basic Logic. There is no conspiracy here, and opinions are available and allowed to be stated by anyone. However, if you don't really want a discussion on a subject, you just want to *****? Go somewhere else, please; we've heard all you have to say countless times before, and you are now just wasting everyone's time and cluttering the General Boards.
As I have said before, it's really not the game I don't like (although I do not like it), it's the crappy personalities I meet on these forums that I can't stand!
So why do you keep coming back?
It's been my experience that people post in the same manner they observe others posting, or in the same manner in which they were treated.
That was how I started my "campaign" here and I can empathize with people that feel attacked, belittled, or made to feel inconsequential.
So you're blaming the fact that you got banned for trolling, baiting and generally hacing a rotten attitude on the "pro 4e-ers", saying that you are merely acting in kind.
And yet they haven't been banned or even warned. That should tell you something, and let me give you a hint, it's not that the mods are on a personal vendetta against you and all of "h4ter kind".
It might be an indication that, no, actually, other posters attitudes are fine, and they aren't baiting you and flaming you.
Also, "campaign"? Seriously? Are you that ego-centric? Really?
Yes, you are right in that attitude or "tone" gets a lot of bans, but I have observed the same tone and condescension coming from pro 4e that gets no ban, warning, whatever.
You know what? If we sound condescending when we tell you that "4e does not kill RP" or "4e does have fluff" it's because your probably the 10th or 11th person we've said it to that week, ok?
There are only so many times you can repeat something and be calm about it.
And, as another point, the fact that these other posters don't get banned or even warned should tell you something, and again, it's not that the mods are "out to get you".
As I have said before, it's really not the game I don't like (although I do not like it), it's the crappy personalities I meet on these forums that I can't stand!*
Then why hang around? If I put my hand on a hot cooker I don't think "Hmm, actually quite a hot cooker there. I think I can smell my flesh cooking. I'll have to consider removing my hand from this source of incredible pain at some point." I take my ******* hand off the cooker. Similar situation.
I come here because I want to discuss a game system I like, not because I want to contend with trolls who act cute and constantly say "But I'm allowed to have an opinion". It gets very very old, very very fast.
*And yes, I'm sure the same could be said about me by my "enemies"...
Wow. You are actually serious here aren't you? You actually view these forums as a battleground so that people will listen to you and pay attention to you, don't you?
Here's a hint. We don't care what you (or trolls for that matter) do, as long as you all let us discuss are chosen game in peace. We don't want trolls dropping in every now and again shouting "4e sucks 4e sucks" over and over and causing flamewars and getting threads locked.
So why do you keep coming back?
Have a guess. Go on. Just a wild stab in the dark. The first thing that pops into your head.
You know what? If we sound condescending when we tell you that "4e does not kill RP" or "4e does have fluff" it's because your probably the 10th or 11th person we've said it to that week, ok?
10 a week? So a lot of people think this is true? Lets discuss it then.
10 a week? So a lot of people think this is true? Lets discuss it then.
A few trolls have a lot of sock puppets. End discussion.
-SYB
10 a week? So a lot of people think this is true? Lets discuss it then.
We have. They are usually people who simply don't appreciate the feel of 4E*, or they are people who have a general dislike of change and are latching on to any excuse they can find to dislike the System. Neither is a good discussion for very long. :S
*Unfortunate, but understandable. I feel for them, but it's not a problem anyone can fix.
It's been my experience that people post in the same manner they observe others posting, or in the same manner in which they were treated.
That was how I started my "campaign" here and I can empathize with people that feel attacked, belittled, or made to feel inconsequential.
Yes, you are right in that attitude or "tone" gets a lot of bans, but I have observed the same tone and condescension coming from pro 4e that gets no ban, warning, whatever.
As I have said before, it's really not the game I don't like (although I do not like it), it's the crappy personalities I meet on these forums that I can't stand!*
*And yes, I'm sure the same could be said about me by my "enemies"...
The truth is, you do not understand the purpose of these forums. Or, if you do understand the purpose, you willingly choose not to abide by it. This isn't a public gazebo in the park where everyone is welcome to their opinion. This is a web site, maintained by a private organization. The purpose of these forums is for like-minded individuals, who enjoy 4e, to exchange information regarding the hobby they enjoy.
You don't have some imagined "right" to denigrate 4e on these boards. There are plenty of places in the internet where you do have that "right". This isn't one of them. I come to these boards because I want to discuss 4e with other people who enjoy the game. That is the purpose of these boards after all. When I want a lively argument on the quality of the game those who don't enjoy the game, I go to other boards. Anyone who consistently denigrates the game doesn't belong here. They are simply interfering with the expected experience of those who do belong here.
So, yes, I report those posts that ruin my experience and the moderators, who understand that this site belongs to Wizards, provide harsher enforcement against those who are providing an acidic environment than those who simply cross the line while supporting the purpose of the boards.
-SYB
1) Dude starts a thread looking for a fight.
2) Thread becomes a fight, thread is closed.
3) Dude starts two more threads looking for a fight.
4) Threads become a fight, threads are closed.
5) Dude starts ANOTHER thread looking for a fight.
6) Thread is closed.
7) Dude start YET ANOTHE-- THREAD IS CLOSED
It was an example of the moderation finally working, but largely only because unlike most of our stable of trolls, who learn and adapt thier tactics to abuse the utter lack of memory in the moderation by spreading thier trolling out, this guy just loaded up his spam-gun and opened up full auto.
And I'm sure he'll do it again in the near furture.
Why? Because this forum doens't actually *do* anything to you for bad behavior. We've got prople bragging about thier trolling campaign here. We've got people who proudly declared thier intentions of performing interstate crime against people. Hell, we've have someone who earnestly threatened to kill at least three posters. So there's no point crying over a couple of flamebait threads getting locked.
So why do you keep coming back?
Have a guess. Go on. Just a wild stab in the dark. The first thing that pops into your head.
Because I can.
This is the first thing that popped into my head...then it got confirmed. You'd think I'd have seen that question asked and answered a few times in the past...
This is the first thing that popped into my head...then it got confirmed. You'd think I'd have seen that question asked and answered a few times in the past...
I was thinking along the lines of 'the moderation here is incredibly lax', which is pretty much the same thing when you think about it.
And what have I done to deserve moderation?
...
...
...
...
...
...
Lack of knowledge of the rules to abide by is not only not an excuse, it's also an offense in itself.
...Look at Warweaver's thread for an example....
could you post a link to that? I would very much like to read it, and the search function is not the best...
thanks
10 a week? So a lot of people think this is true? Lets discuss it then.
Rubbish, it never happens. A 4venger even searched the interwebs to let us know there's nothing of the sort.
Stop expressing opinions as fact, and easy on the condescension!
What is the deal with this? Some "insert expletive here" comes along and bashes 4e at the intellectual equivalency level of a grade schooler and people feel it is necessary to report the thread. Why? Who are these tattle-tale hall monitors that feel so threatened that they must report these bad kids?
There is a certain propensity on these boards to over-react to criticism, but this- not even letting people have a say, no matter how ridiculous- takes the cake.
No one is keeping anyone from having a say, but there is no need to allow 500 threads a day bashing all the same things over and over. Thats what blogs are for...
Weed control begins at the first emergence of a single weed.
Not trying to troll, but that's a great description of fascism too.
If most dissension is quashed before it ever has a chance to grow into either a good debate, or the start of a flame war, you're not going to be doing any favors to the long term health of the game.
If posters can't say what they don't like then I'd say there's a problem with the moderation. Remember that a flame war takes two sides both arguing. If I don't like the 4th Monster Manual, should I automatically be hated off the boards and have my threads deleted rather being allowed to try and help improve future products?
Maybe I'm just projecting, but I cannot recall a single thread critising 4th that was not rated down to 1 or 2 stars, or locked or deleted. That worries me for the health of the game.
Not trying to troll, but that's a great description of fascism too.
If most dissension is quashed before it ever has a chance to grow into either a good debate, or the start of a flame war, you're not going to be doing any favors to the long term health of the game.
If posters can't say what they don't like then I'd say there's a problem with the moderation. Remember that a flame war takes two sides both arguing. If I don't like the 4th Monster Manual, should I automatically be hated off the boards and have my threads deleted rather being allowed to try and help improve future products?
Maybe I'm just projecting, but I cannot recall a single thread critising 4th that was not rated down to 1 or 2 stars, or locked or deleted. That worries me for the health of the game.
Trying to change things you dont personally like is not the same thing as improving future products, there isn't necessarily anything wrong that needs to be improved with them aside from your simply not liking the direction there taking...
Letting people blast a system for being different is not good for the long term health of any thing...
Not trying to troll, but that's a great description of fascism too.
If most dissension is quashed before i
Oops. You missed the point. See, troll threads get closed. Not dissenter threads. There is an important difference. We all know that not everybody likes 4e. That's fine. If you want to talk about it, that's fine too. Unfortunately, most of the people who come here to talk about how much they hate the new edition aren't actually here to talk. They're here to cry and moan and certainly not discuss things. They make a bunch of elitist and insulting comments and refused to listen to anybody else. At that point it stops being about constructive criticism and discussion and it becomes a troll thread that needs to be closed.
It's just a shame that some people think that because so many trolls hate 4e, that their threads get closed because they hate 4e and not because they're trolls.
Trying to change things you dont personally like is not the same thing as improving future products, there isn't necessarily anything wrong that needs to be improved with them aside from your simply not liking the direction there taking...
If I don't like something... I shouldn't try and change it... so I (and hopefully others) can enjoy it more... and thus buy more products....
In other words, I shouldn't have an opinion, nor act upon it. Great, glad you were made the dictator of what is and is not wrong.
Letting people blast a system for being different is not good for the long term health of any thing...
Letting people state their disagreement and what they would find more fun, or where the would like changes is good for the system. Cutting them off the instant something might go bad is... well bad.
Did you even read what I wrote?
Oops. You missed the point. See, troll threads get closed. Not dissenter threads. There is an important difference. We all know that not everybody likes 4e. That's fine. If you want to talk about it, that's fine too. Unfortunately, most of the people who come here to talk about how much they hate the new edition aren't actually here to talk. They're here to cry and moan and certainly not discuss things. They make a bunch of elitist and insulting comments and refused to listen to anybody else. At that point it stops being about constructive criticism and discussion and it becomes a troll thread that needs to be closed.
It's just a shame that some people think that because so many trolls hate 4e, that their threads get closed because they hate 4e and not because they're trolls.
To which I reply:
Maybe I'm just projecting, but I cannot recall a single thread critising 4th that was not rated down to 1 or 2 stars, or locked or deleted.
Can you show me any threads that dispute this? I was clearly talking about the over all attitude that 4th can do no wrong. I think that it is you who missed my point.
Can you show me any threads that dispute this? I was clearly talking about the over all attitude that 4th can do no wrong. I think that it is you who missed my point.
Nobody thinks 4e is perfect. That's it. Nobody. Lots of people here really enjoy the game and only bristle at other people's complaints because those aspects of the system are perceived pros, to them. Like when people complain about how the wizard can't be whatever it wants anymore, people argue because they're glad. Not because they think 4e is perfect.
Nobody thinks 4e can do no wrong. They don't.
Also, stars are retarded. They don't mean anything other than the opinion of a handful of people who bothered to rate the thread. Which has nothing to do with quieting dissenters.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18253092&postcount=2
calling someone a "lazy uncreative ass" as an answer to the OP, does not sound like someone even trying to be productive.
threads get closed because people make it personal. Just like this thread, and this second post...
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18253092&postcount=2
calling someone a "lazy uncreative ass" as an answer to the OP, does not sound like someone even trying to be productive.
That actually gets my goat too.
I'm even upset to hear people bash on Warweaver about stuff he said recently. I was there and really, he just appealed to a couple of hot buttons that everybody immediately went off about. The guy still shows respect and humility, for which I thank him.
To which I reply:
Can you show me any threads that dispute this? I was clearly talking about the over all attitude that 4th can do no wrong. I think that it is you who missed my point.
[THREAD=1106807]How about this one?[/THREAD] Largely consider by most to be the best anti-4E thread on the boards, and one that went for 2½ thousand posts and was never closed.
[THREAD=1106807]How about this one?[/THREAD] Largely consider by most to be the best anti-4E thread on the boards, and one that went for 2½ thousand posts and was never closed.
Well, it's 3 stars at least, and it is an example. Do you have any others?
Well, it's 3 stars at least, and it is an example. Do you have any others?
The druid thread. It's on the front page right now. The fact that it has 2 stars is meaningless. We're trying to prove that this place is fair. Not that we love haters.
Well, it's 3 stars at least, and it is an example. Do you have any others?
The stars mean virtually nothing. Despite the fact that a vast number of people participated at some point in that conversation, it only received 30 something votes (even I didn't vote). But again, this was an example of 4E hate done right... I wish I could find another example.
could you post a link to that? I would very much like to read it, and the search function is not the best...
thanks
Decievre did.
Fair as compared to what?
Enough people haven't complained enough to get them closed.
Then what's the excuse for Warweaver's thread? People reported the crap out of it, but the WizO's didn't see enough wrong with it. We got warned a lot, but never actually got locked. If it's a conspiracy, then why didn't that thread get locked?
:D
I remember last game I was completely unable to jump or travel outside of encounter area until I killed all the Mobs.
But 4e IS like a video game!
:D
I remember last game I was completely unable to jump or travel outside of encounter area until I killed all the Mobs.
But you can run away from all sorts of fights in video games. You can run away from fights in WoW! Video game is such a huge genre that it's halfway retarded to even think video games are like video games in any other way than the fact that they're video games.
I'm serious. It's old and silly. Be more specific in the future.
See? Now that's deep.
I know it's hard to tell with all the terrible ideas that flow from some posters but the smiley should have popped a warning flag.
That's an example of a 4e dissent thread done well, and as such it reached page 51. I will admit to reporting the threads last night, mostly out of pattern recognition towards how people would respond. Besides pattern recognition there was also the matter of spam involved, and the start of a flame war in the one where a pro-4e poster called the OP a "lazy unoriginal ass." (That particular flame was what made me decide that the thread needed reporting, actually. I see the starts of an edition war from either side and I'll report it, I don't take sides when it comes to preventing more outbreaks of the EW.)
When somebody pops in with "all classes are the same in 4e," somebody will often come in asking for proof.
The person who originally posted the "all classes are the same in 4e" comment often gets defensive, and it quickly escalates into flaming. It seems to me to be following a fairly standard pattern.
But what if, like Warweaver, you present your opinions AS opinions.
I personally wouldn't be nearly as bothered with complaints because people dislike the feel of 4e if they were presented as such, but presenting it as an objective flaw in the system is likely to push some buttons, and doesn't seem to end well a good portion of the time.
Judicious use of "personally," "I think," "I feel," "I dislike," etc. will go a long way to making the threads as a whole more civil, in my opinion.
And as to the OP, I reported a number of those posts. When I see something that seems hostile, I go to the top of the screen, click the "Code of Conduct" button, and do a quick read. If I see it did indeed violate the Code of Conduct we all agreed to when we got on this board, I report it. If it did not, I move on.
But you can run away from all sorts of fights in video games. You can run away from fights in WoW! Video game is such a huge genre that it's halfway retarded to even think video games are like video games in any other way than the fact that they're video games.
I'm serious. It's old and silly. Be more specific in the future.
You're totally right, the session before that I got fragged by a headshot because my mouse died!
Not only is 4e like a video game. It is like all video games simultaneously.
The session before the headshot one I had to take care of a puppy. It got so tedious feeding him and giving him baths. He sure was cute though.
I put a bow-tie on him... It did 2[W] and knocked the target prone...
I always prefaced my posts with "IMHO" or "I think..." or something very akin to that.
Did it do any good?
No.
It does to some. Trolls will be trolls no matter what side they are on. I personally haven't seen you attacked for presenting an opinion, but I don't seem to wander into threads where you post more than once or twice.
I'll check through your post history to look for any of these attacks that come at you for innocently presenting your opinions as such, though. Just to see if I have to amend my theory.
You don't have some imagined "right" to denigrate 4e on these boards. There are plenty of places in the internet where you do have that "right". This isn't one of them. I come to these boards because I want to discuss 4e with other people who enjoy the game. That is the purpose of these boards after all. When I want a lively argument on the quality of the game those who don't enjoy the game, I go to other boards. Anyone who consistently denigrates the game doesn't belong here. They are simply interfering with the expected experience of those who do belong here.
Did you ever know that you're my hero,
and ev'rything I would like to be?
I can fly higher than an eagle,
'cause you are the wind beneath my wings.
Sigged. And appreciated.
However, it is not against the CoC.
The statement was made and I challenged the OP to tell/show me what I have done to deserve modersation.
He/she cannot.
Therefore, that very statement by the OP is baiting/ trolling.
I agree with HATER here, and am happy that E_W and Decivre, at least, have been showing good examples of Proper Forum Behavior.
I regret to say that I must especially disagree with the above post. I am all for people coming here to discuss what they think could have been done better in 4E, and then perhaps some constructive discussion on what we can do about those problems.
We are not Overlords, Fascist Leaders, or The Majority simply because we like 4E. That kind of attitude is detrimental to the Community at large, and can only hurt anyone's overall opinion of those who support 4E. Please tone it down a notch, guys.
The "4e is a video game" argument is one that has, many times over, shown itself to lead to flaming and general bad vibes on the boards. Making a thread just to bring it upcouldshould be seen as amildblatant attempt at edition war [b]given how long the author of the threads in question has been around. If that wasn't the intent then it's a shame that the thread got locked rather than allowing discussion, but it's better to err on the side of caution, IMHO, given how nasty the Edition Wars got.
The author of the threads in question knew exactly what he was doing. He was attempting to start an edition war.
If I don't like something... I shouldn't try and change it... so I (and hopefully others) can enjoy it more... and thus buy more products....
In other words, I shouldn't have an opinion, nor act upon it. Great, glad you were made the dictator of what is and is not wrong.
Letting people state their disagreement and what they would find more fun, or where the would like changes is good for the system. Cutting them off the instant something might go bad is... well bad.
Did you even read what I wrote?
People have stated there disagreements a million times over, these have all been addressed by pointing out fixes or by looking at the problems and seeing if they truely are problems or just preferences.
You arn't acting on your opinion, if you were you would be out writing your own RPG which addresses all of your issues instead of coming here and rehashing all the same issues over and over again.
In short, you have been aloud to speak your piece.
Enough people didnt agree with your assessment of things which you consider wrong to hinder the editions current success to merit they type of hard hitting action you seem to want.
You decided to come here and complain about it over and over again instead of taking any real action as your altruistic response would indicate.
Nothing left...
I always prefaced my posts with "IMHO" or "I think..." or something very akin to that.
Did it do any good?
No.
To be fair...whenever some of the more well-known trolls would go on a hate-fest, spouting off pure rubbish and false remarks, you did have a tendency of simply popping in, saying, "I agree!", then vanishing as fast as you arrived. Even if the original thread was torn to pieces in a frenzy of debunking facts, it was as though you were content to state your approval, then vanish before the debunking could occur. While you don't seem as prone to do that anymore, it was a fairly common occurrence in the past.
I'll check through your post history to look for any of these attacks that come at you for innocently presenting your opinions as such, though. Just to see if I have to amend my theory.
You actually seem to post a lot of striking things without the "IMHO" tag (going from the first three pages of your search history, and reading all of the threads they were linked to), and a lot of those posts would have been a lot less offensive had they had them, to me at least.
Unless you were saying you did so in the past, and then decided not to since you feel you got nowhere.
Which, on a second, closer reading, makes more sense.
I report posts because the moderators occasionally actually act when I do so, and because the Code of Conduct doesn't actually allow me to give them what they deserve. Yes I know it's "uncool" to follow the rules, but that's the very tenuous thing separating this board from /tg.
Yet in the case I cited the thread was closed before any violations. Did you report that thread? Interestingly a similar thread posted by the same guy with the same basic topic was allowed to flourish today. Why was it allowed and the other not? Did you report that one too? Just curious.
threads get closed because people make it personal. Just like this thread, and this second post...
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18253092&postcount=2
calling someone a "lazy uncreative ass" as an answer to the OP, does not sound like someone even trying to be productive.
The question then, is why is the thread locked out rather then the offending poster?
I think it would be nice if those who dislike 4e for personal reasons would present the issues as a matter of opinion, instead of fact.
I think it would be nice if everyone was held to this standard, not just those that dislike 4e.
Yet in the case I cited the thread was closed before any violations.
There are many stupid threads that were closed that day, so I can't tell which one you're referring to. If you're referring to the fluff threads one is obviously against the code of conduct, the other isn't. I can't report bad arguments and poor logic until it reaches flamebait levels, even if I consider the aim of the thread to be exactly the same, because those aren't against the CoC.
There are many stupid threads that were closed that day, so I can't tell which one you're referring to. If you're referring to the fluff threads one is obviously against the code of conduct, the other isn't. I can't report bad arguments and poor logic until it reaches flamebait levels, even if I consider the aim of the thread to be exactly the same, because those aren't against the CoC.
"Why fourth edition has lost its appeal" closed. "Where is the fluff of fourth edition?" still open. What is the violation of the first that needed reporting? And what is its difference, in your opinion, from the latter?
I think it would be nice if everyone was held to this standard, not just those that dislike 4e.
I too feel it would be nice, but it seems like the dissenters will be under more scrutiny in a forum made for the game than those who support it.
A perfect world would be nice, but really, I'm just chucking out advice for getting your words heard without it getting locked, as seems to be the issue this thread is addressing.
"Why fourth edition has lost its appeal" closed. "Where is the fluff of fourth edition?" still open. What is the violation of the first that needed reporting? And what is its difference, in your opinion, from the latter?
Mods off for the weekend would be my guess.
Mods off for the weekend would be my guess.
So are you of the opinion that both should have been closed immediately? And if so why?
So are you of the opinion that both should have been closed immediately? And if so why?
Replying via PM.
"Why fourth edition has lost its appeal" closed. "Where is the fluff of fourth edition?" still open. What is the violation of the first that needed reporting? And what is its difference, in your opinion, from the latter?
Is this the thread that was created after a thread of the EXACT same name was closed not long beforehand?
"Why fourth edition has lost its appeal" closed. "Where is the fluff of fourth edition?" still open. What is the violation of the first that needed reporting? And what is its difference, in your opinion, from the latter?
Because "lol 4E = video game" is considered flamebait, while "I don't like the lack of fluff" is not, even if the rest of the argument is the same word for word. I can understand if you haven't discerned where the line is at yet, because it's kinda arbitrary. But that's how the moderation goes here.
I dunno man...
There could be any number of reasons.
It could be because that, actually, you've made a mistake, and are wrong.
Is this the thread that was created after a thread of the EXACT same name was closed not long beforehand
This is the first http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1171636
And this was the second http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1171638
If you look at the time of creation, you'll see that they were created with 2 minutes of each other, while it took around an hour or more for each to be locked. Apparently he didn't intentionally create the same thread again after it was locked, he created two of the same post at the same time. Probably, IMO, an accident.
Maybe I'm just projecting, but I cannot recall a single thread critising 4th that was not rated down to 1 or 2 stars, or locked or deleted. That worries me for the health of the game.
If you walk into a Catholic church and start complaining that you hate Catholicism and Protestant is better, don't expect a warm welcome...
If you walk into a Catholic church and start complaining that you hate Catholicism and Protestant is better, don't expect a warm welcome...
But if you phrase your thoughts in opinion, and are receptive to open discussion, there's no reason they wouldn't tolerate you.
But if you phrase your thoughts in opinion, and are receptive to open discussion, there's no reason they wouldn't tolerate you.
Except, of course, when they harass, insult, and attack you at every turn.
Except, of course, when they harass, insult, and attack you at every turn.
Unless you phrase your thoughts in opinion, and are receptive to open discussion.
Yes, it could be.
And I am not above admitting so...
I like how you bolded "I" in that sentence, as though you think you're pointing out that I can't admit when I'm wrong, and that because you've made this random assumption, that somehow makes you a better person than me.
Unless you phrase your thoughts in opinion, and are receptive to open discussion.
Agreed, it is inexcusable when thoughts are expressed as opinion, open to discussion, and still are met with insults, harassment and attacks.
Fair enough.
And that very behavior was pointed out to me by another poster... and I have since policed such behavior.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18245580#post18245580
Agreed, it is inexcusable when thoughts are expressed as opinion, open to discussion, and still are met with insults, harassment and attacks.
Insults/attacks:
"A ze4lot is never wrong."
Dude... what is your major malfunction?
I mean really?
I bolded the I because I wanted it stressed that I am not scared to admit I am wrong. It had nothing to do with you. And I am no better a person than any other person.
Please, stop with the backroom psycho-analyst crap...
Backroom psycho-analyst? You have no idea how hard I'm laughing right now. Sorry, but that's just wonderful.
So says I
I like how you bolded "I" in that sentence, as though you think you're pointing out that I can't admit when I'm wrong, and that because you've made this random assumption, that somehow makes you a better person than me.
If you're looking for a duel, PM him for his address and go fight him already, Samyueru. As is, your harassment here is not amusing. My apologies for targeting you specifically, but your actions here are in no way benefiting the Community at large.
HATER has, indeed, policed that behavior since I politely asked him to stop, just as I've stopped trying to Police the Boards myself when others have asked me to stop.
@Doomboy: Then it would be best for you to report them. I can name quite a few places I've reported Pro-4E posters, and their posts have been removed. Trolling is Trolling, no matter what game that person happens to enjoy playing.
Originally Posted by Scipio View Post
...Look at Warweaver's thread for an example....
could you post a link to that? I would very much like to read it, and the search function is not the best...
thanks
plus
Maybe I'm just projecting, but I cannot recall a single thread critising 4th that was not rated down to 1 or 2 stars, or locked or deleted. That worries me for the health of the game.
Here:
Sorry WotC: No More Books Till 5e For Me by Warweaver
[THREAD=1106807]How about this one?[/THREAD] Largely consider by most to be the best anti-4E thread on the boards, and one that went for 2½ thousand posts and was never closed.
Since someone asked I thought I'd link to Warweaver's thread for everyone. [thread=1106807][/thread]
Here:
[thread=1106807]Sorry WotC: No More Books Till 5e For Me[/thread] by Warweaver
Is third time the charm? I'm almost memorizing the thread number...
I am under no illusions.
And I do not think all the hater threads get closed and none of the fanboi threads do.
But it can appear as though more hater threads do get closed than fanboi threads. But to be fair, more of the hater threads are flamebait than the fanboi ones... but also, some of the critical threads probably could have stuck around had it not been for the fanbois aggravating the situation... or baiting the op...
but I can't speak on/for every situation.
The fanboys wouldn't have been aggravating the situation were it not for trolls hanging around here and constantly trying to cause trouble and having a ton of sockpuppets.
The fanboys wouldn't have been aggravating the situation
Yes they would. The fanboys of whom you speak are merely trolls that voice a pro-product brand of baiting. The fanboys of whom you speak are the pro-4e crowd who see flame in *everything* HATER might say. They are the folks who assume that if someone says they do not like 4e, they must be baiting.
The distinction between fans and "fanboys" lies in the content of their posts, not the position they hold.
Yes they would. The fanboys of whom you speak are merely trolls that voice a pro-product brand of baiting. The fanboys of whom you speak are the pro-4e crowd who see flame in *everything* HATER might say. They are the folks who assume that if someone says they do not like 4e, they must be baiting.
-Quite. As someone who doesn't participate on the 4e boards, most of the back-and-forth bickering I heard between various individuals was from this section. From that cross-sample, I often found myself sympathizing with many of the (or, just one? I don't know anything about different people and different accounts if it has no impact on myself, which this doesn't) accused trolls. In the looking around that I did, it often seemed that, regardless of what these (or this one) people/person said, five people ( a made-up number, to demonstrate that it normally is more than one or two people) arrived to harass them/him/her about things not even necessarily related to the post.
-In arguing with actual trolls, or just people they disagree with, many people have become twisted parodies of the posters they most vociferously disagreed with, to the point that so many of their posts come off as containing righteous indignation (when others disagree with a point [that has sense and logic, not random spammy comments]), entitlement ("your kind aren't wanted here") and passive aggression that only further causes problems in threads. That "they" have been aggravating "us" is a justification for behaving in this manner is not acceptable (on the internet here, as well as in real life in general).
...
You are, however, failing to mention the group that uses every opportunity they see (warranted or otherwise) to spam and spew how much they dislike x, y and z.
I know you've seen that firsthand and quite often, even w/o having to go searching for it.
You are, however, failing to mention the group that uses every opportunity they see (warranted or otherwise) to spam and spew how much they dislike x, y and z.
I know you've seen that firsthand and quite often, even w/o having to go searching for it.
-Like I said, I don't use the 4e General boards, so I don't know much of the history of interaction between HATER and say, Samyueru, since them two are both in this thread talking to each other. I don't know HATER's posting habits, other than what I've heard and what I see primarily here. I don't know Samyueru's posting habits, other than what I've heard and what I see primarily here.
-If a person wants to spam (using the WotC provided definition: "Repeated posts, or off-topic content by word or intent to forums or comments [scrolling, flooding, polling, or by "bumping" a post more than once in 48 hours]), that's inherently against the Code of Conduct. Moderators- not posters- deal with it when it happens. If a person wants to discuss things they like and don't like, that's not inherently against the Code of Conduct. Many people have lost sight of that, and as a result, relations suffer and things get locked preemptively. Crimson-Lancer is someone I also recall as someone who vociferously disagreed with individuals who he believed were/are trolls, and often acted as he perceived they did, "in opposition" of them. As evidence above, he's realized that that's not how to behave, and has seemingly stopped, and I commend that. If more people did that, there'd be less problems and threads wouldn't have to be closed preemptively.
-If a person wants to spam (using the WotC provided definition: "Repeated posts, or off-topic content by word or intent to forums or comments [scrolling, flooding, polling, or by "bumping" a post more than once in 48 hours]), that's inherently against the Code of Conduct. Moderators- not posters- deal with it when it happens. If a person wants to discuss things they like and don't like, that's not inherently against the Code of Conduct. Many people have lost sight of that, and as a result, relations suffer and things get locked preemptively.
Ahh, now see, you and I both know that stating things you do or don't like is what I meant. When people post x when it has nothing to do with the thread, and they do this in every thread they want that talks about x, y or z, then yes, that is spam.
Ahh, now see, you and I both know that stating things you do or don't like is what I meant. When people post x when it has nothing to do with the thread, and they do this in every thread they want that talks about x, y or z, then yes, that is spam.
-When a person begins talking about pretzels, and how much they love chocolate covered pretzels in a thread that is talking about katanas in Rokugan, that is off-topic spam. When a person begins talking about how katanas are 30 inches long, but the applicable sourcebooks say they are only 20 (I'm just making up numbers) in a thread that is talking about katanas in Rokugan, that is not off-topic spam, as it is tangentially related to the topic of the thread. When a person begins talking about how katanas are 30 inches long, but the applicable sourcebooks say they are only 20 (I'm just making up numbers) in a thread that is talking about katanas in Rokugan, weapons in Rokugan, and Samurai in Rokugan, that is not off-topic spam, as the point is tangentially related to all of the threads in question. When a person begins talking about pretzels, and how much they love chocolate covered pretzels in a thread that is talking about katanas in Rokugan, weapons in Rokugan and Samurai in Rokugan, that is off-topic spam, as the point is not related to any of the threads in question. A person can copy and paste their exact response in each thread should they choose to.
-Ultimatley, it's a moot point, however. If something is clear cut off-topic spam, it's your duty to report it to WizO moderators; it's their jobs to deal with possible CoC breaches, not fellow posters. If something is ambiguous spam, it's your duty to report it to WizO moderators; it's their jobs to deal with possible CoC breaches, not fellow posters. Like Crimson-Lancer said, it's not his job to "Police the Boards". It's not my job, it's not your job, it's not anyone else in this thread's job. Attacking, insulting, harassing, flaming, baiting, mocking (and so on) people who are perceived as trolling simply compounds a possible CoC violation. Such behavior perpetuates the ill-will between different posters, which spawns the righteous indignation, sense of entitlement and passive aggression that I noted earlier, which, in turn, prompts threads to be closed preemptively.
Ahh, now see, you and I both know that stating things you do or don't like is what I meant.
Nobody is claiming there are not anti-4e trolls. Lord Karsus was merely acknowledging that there are trolls on both sides of the "4e position" and that the pro-4e-trolls operate in much the same manner as the anti-4e-trolls.
Nobody is claiming there are not anti-4e trolls. Lord Karsus was merely acknowledging that there are trolls on both sides of the "4e position" and that the pro-4e-trolls operate in much the same manner as the anti-4e-trolls.
Of course and I agree. My point; it's best to say that out front, least you get call a (so-called) 'troll sympathizer'.
It wasn't clear (for me) that his post was addressing both 'sides'.
This may be a little off-topic, but...
How does one tell the difference between a troll and a person that is just very passionate about his beliefs/ opinions?
Honestly asked... I am not trying to be snarky...
It has as much to do with intent, as it does content.
Not something that is very easy to see clearly and all too often it misconstrued.
How does one tell the difference between a troll and a person that is just very passionate about his beliefs/ opinions?
Honestly asked... I am not trying to be snarky...
-A troll exists with the sole reason of causing Code of Conduct violations. There are blatant trolls, who do obvious things like outright flame others, post images of prohibited material, and things of that nature. Then, there are less blatant trolls, who have nothing valid* to add to conversations, but participate with the sole purpose of setting others off.
-Below that "tier", there are problematic posters, who do ask valid questions, give valid answers, and share valid opinions, but do so in ways that often flame others, baits others, be generally rude with others, and otherwise violate the Code of Conduct.
-Being passionate about your beliefs and opinions does not translate into being a troll, or a problematic poster, however. Everyday, plenty of posters who are passionate about their beliefs and opinions share their thoughts, and no ill comes of it. So, to say that all posters who are "intense", for a short-but-general definition are either trolls and/or problematic posters would be incorrect. Likewise, to say that all "intense" posters are not trolls, or problematic posters is also incorrect.
*which varies from topic to topic
Fair enough.
And that very behavior was pointed out to me by another poster... and I have since policed such behavior.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18245580#post18245580
Agreed, it is inexcusable when thoughts are expressed as opinion, open to discussion, and still are met with insults, harassment and attacks.
Insults/attacks:
"A ze4lot is never wrong."
Dude... what is your major malfunction?
I mean really?
I bolded the I because I wanted it stressed that I am not scared to admit I am wrong. It had nothing to do with you. And I am no better a person than any other person.
Please, stop with the backroom psycho-analyst crap...
Backroom psycho-analyst? You have no idea how hard I'm laughing right now. Sorry, but that's just wonderful.
So says I
I like how you bolded "I" in that sentence, as though you think you're pointing out that I can't admit when I'm wrong, and that because you've made this random assumption, that somehow makes you a better person than me.
If you're looking for a duel, PM him for his address and go fight him already, Samyueru. As is, your harassment here is not amusing. My apologies for targeting you specifically, but your actions here are in no way benefiting the Community at large.
HATER has, indeed, policed that behavior since I politely asked him to stop, just as I've stopped trying to Police the Boards myself when others have asked me to stop.
@Doomboy: Then it would be best for you to report them. I can name quite a few places I've reported Pro-4E posters, and their posts have been removed. Trolling is Trolling, no matter what game that person happens to enjoy playing.
Originally Posted by Scipio View Post
...Look at Warweaver's thread for an example....
could you post a link to that? I would very much like to read it, and the search function is not the best...
thanks
plus
Maybe I'm just projecting, but I cannot recall a single thread critising 4th that was not rated down to 1 or 2 stars, or locked or deleted. That worries me for the health of the game.
Here:
Sorry WotC: No More Books Till 5e For Me by Warweaver
[THREAD=1106807]How about this one?[/THREAD] Largely consider by most to be the best anti-4E thread on the boards, and one that went for 2½ thousand posts and was never closed.
Since someone asked I thought I'd link to Warweaver's thread for everyone. [thread=1106807][/thread]
Here:
[thread=1106807]Sorry WotC: No More Books Till 5e For Me[/thread] by Warweaver
Is third time the charm? I'm almost memorizing the thread number...
I am under no illusions.
And I do not think all the hater threads get closed and none of the fanboi threads do.
But it can appear as though more hater threads do get closed than fanboi threads. But to be fair, more of the hater threads are flamebait than the fanboi ones... but also, some of the critical threads probably could have stuck around had it not been for the fanbois aggravating the situation... or baiting the op...
but I can't speak on/for every situation.
The fanboys wouldn't have been aggravating the situation were it not for trolls hanging around here and constantly trying to cause trouble and having a ton of sockpuppets.
The fanboys wouldn't have been aggravating the situation
Yes they would. The fanboys of whom you speak are merely trolls that voice a pro-product brand of baiting. The fanboys of whom you speak are the pro-4e crowd who see flame in *everything* HATER might say. They are the folks who assume that if someone says they do not like 4e, they must be baiting.
The distinction between fans and "fanboys" lies in the content of their posts, not the position they hold.
Yes they would. The fanboys of whom you speak are merely trolls that voice a pro-product brand of baiting. The fanboys of whom you speak are the pro-4e crowd who see flame in *everything* HATER might say. They are the folks who assume that if someone says they do not like 4e, they must be baiting.
-Quite. As someone who doesn't participate on the 4e boards, most of the back-and-forth bickering I heard between various individuals was from this section. From that cross-sample, I often found myself sympathizing with many of the (or, just one? I don't know anything about different people and different accounts if it has no impact on myself, which this doesn't) accused trolls. In the looking around that I did, it often seemed that, regardless of what these (or this one) people/person said, five people ( a made-up number, to demonstrate that it normally is more than one or two people) arrived to harass them/him/her about things not even necessarily related to the post.
-In arguing with actual trolls, or just people they disagree with, many people have become twisted parodies of the posters they most vociferously disagreed with, to the point that so many of their posts come off as containing righteous indignation (when others disagree with a point [that has sense and logic, not random spammy comments]), entitlement ("your kind aren't wanted here") and passive aggression that only further causes problems in threads. That "they" have been aggravating "us" is a justification for behaving in this manner is not acceptable (on the internet here, as well as in real life in general).
...
You are, however, failing to mention the group that uses every opportunity they see (warranted or otherwise) to spam and spew how much they dislike x, y and z.
I know you've seen that firsthand and quite often, even w/o having to go searching for it.
You are, however, failing to mention the group that uses every opportunity they see (warranted or otherwise) to spam and spew how much they dislike x, y and z.
I know you've seen that firsthand and quite often, even w/o having to go searching for it.
-Like I said, I don't use the 4e General boards, so I don't know much of the history of interaction between HATER and say, Samyueru, since them two are both in this thread talking to each other. I don't know HATER's posting habits, other than what I've heard and what I see primarily here. I don't know Samyueru's posting habits, other than what I've heard and what I see primarily here.
-If a person wants to spam (using the WotC provided definition: "Repeated posts, or off-topic content by word or intent to forums or comments [scrolling, flooding, polling, or by "bumping" a post more than once in 48 hours]), that's inherently against the Code of Conduct. Moderators- not posters- deal with it when it happens. If a person wants to discuss things they like and don't like, that's not inherently against the Code of Conduct. Many people have lost sight of that, and as a result, relations suffer and things get locked preemptively. Crimson-Lancer is someone I also recall as someone who vociferously disagreed with individuals who he believed were/are trolls, and often acted as he perceived they did, "in opposition" of them. As evidence above, he's realized that that's not how to behave, and has seemingly stopped, and I commend that. If more people did that, there'd be less problems and threads wouldn't have to be closed preemptively.
-If a person wants to spam (using the WotC provided definition: "Repeated posts, or off-topic content by word or intent to forums or comments [scrolling, flooding, polling, or by "bumping" a post more than once in 48 hours]), that's inherently against the Code of Conduct. Moderators- not posters- deal with it when it happens. If a person wants to discuss things they like and don't like, that's not inherently against the Code of Conduct. Many people have lost sight of that, and as a result, relations suffer and things get locked preemptively.
Ahh, now see, you and I both know that stating things you do or don't like is what I meant. When people post x when it has nothing to do with the thread, and they do this in every thread they want that talks about x, y or z, then yes, that is spam.
Ahh, now see, you and I both know that stating things you do or don't like is what I meant. When people post x when it has nothing to do with the thread, and they do this in every thread they want that talks about x, y or z, then yes, that is spam.
-When a person begins talking about pretzels, and how much they love chocolate covered pretzels in a thread that is talking about katanas in Rokugan, that is off-topic spam. When a person begins talking about how katanas are 30 inches long, but the applicable sourcebooks say they are only 20 (I'm just making up numbers) in a thread that is talking about katanas in Rokugan, that is not off-topic spam, as it is tangentially related to the topic of the thread. When a person begins talking about how katanas are 30 inches long, but the applicable sourcebooks say they are only 20 (I'm just making up numbers) in a thread that is talking about katanas in Rokugan, weapons in Rokugan, and Samurai in Rokugan, that is not off-topic spam, as the point is tangentially related to all of the threads in question. When a person begins talking about pretzels, and how much they love chocolate covered pretzels in a thread that is talking about katanas in Rokugan, weapons in Rokugan and Samurai in Rokugan, that is off-topic spam, as the point is not related to any of the threads in question. A person can copy and paste their exact response in each thread should they choose to.
-Ultimatley, it's a moot point, however. If something is clear cut off-topic spam, it's your duty to report it to WizO moderators; it's their jobs to deal with possible CoC breaches, not fellow posters. If something is ambiguous spam, it's your duty to report it to WizO moderators; it's their jobs to deal with possible CoC breaches, not fellow posters. Like Crimson-Lancer said, it's not his job to "Police the Boards". It's not my job, it's not your job, it's not anyone else in this thread's job. Attacking, insulting, harassing, flaming, baiting, mocking (and so on) people who are perceived as trolling simply compounds a possible CoC violation. Such behavior perpetuates the ill-will between different posters, which spawns the righteous indignation, sense of entitlement and passive aggression that I noted earlier, which, in turn, prompts threads to be closed preemptively.
Ahh, now see, you and I both know that stating things you do or don't like is what I meant.
Nobody is claiming there are not anti-4e trolls. Lord Karsus was merely acknowledging that there are trolls on both sides of the "4e position" and that the pro-4e-trolls operate in much the same manner as the anti-4e-trolls.
Nobody is claiming there are not anti-4e trolls. Lord Karsus was merely acknowledging that there are trolls on both sides of the "4e position" and that the pro-4e-trolls operate in much the same manner as the anti-4e-trolls.
Of course and I agree. My point; it's best to say that out front, least you get call a (so-called) 'troll sympathizer'.
It wasn't clear (for me) that his post was addressing both 'sides'.
This may be a little off-topic, but...
How does one tell the difference between a troll and a person that is just very passionate about his beliefs/ opinions?
Honestly asked... I am not trying to be snarky...
It has as much to do with intent, as it does content.
Not something that is very easy to see clearly and all too often it misconstrued.
How does one tell the difference between a troll and a person that is just very passionate about his beliefs/ opinions?
Honestly asked... I am not trying to be snarky...
-A troll exists with the sole reason of causing Code of Conduct violations. There are blatant trolls, who do obvious things like outright flame others, post images of prohibited material, and things of that nature. Then, there are less blatant trolls, who have nothing valid* to add to conversations, but participate with the sole purpose of setting others off.
-Below that "tier", there are problematic posters, who do ask valid questions, give valid answers, and share valid opinions, but do so in ways that often flame others, baits others, be generally rude with others, and otherwise violate the Code of Conduct.
-Being passionate about your beliefs and opinions does not translate into being a troll, or a problematic poster, however. Everyday, plenty of posters who are passionate about their beliefs and opinions share their thoughts, and no ill comes of it. So, to say that all posters who are "intense", for a short-but-general definition are either trolls and/or problematic posters would be incorrect. Likewise, to say that all "intense" posters are not trolls, or problematic posters is also incorrect.
*which varies from topic to topic