For the record, I liked the Christians and DnD thread - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

For the record, I liked the Christians and DnD thread

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
horatioatthebridge
Jul 06, 2008 14:44:53 The original thread "Christians and DnD" was on the General Discussion forum, and was recently closed due to complaints about it. I understand that the subject matter was sensitive and that the conversation had drifted far away from the original post, so I would completely understand if the moderators chose to delete, move, split, or otherwise change the thread, but I wanted to go on record with the following:

In the midst of all the flaming, baiting, and other poor behavior in the edition wars currently going on in the General Discussion forum, the "Christians and DnD" thread was a surprisingly civil and respectful discussion of a very divisive issue. There were a few disruptive posts, but for the most part people did a good job keeping themselves in check when faced with difficult material and opinions which challenged their beliefs and behaved with a great deal of respect toward each other. I found the thread to be a pleasant and intellectually stimulating discussion, and enjoyed reading all the various views presented there.

While the moderators are considering what to do with that thread, I would politely request that they split the thread into the original topic (Christian and other religion's perspectives on the game of DnD) and into a philosophical discussion topic to encompass many of the interesting discussions that came up there. The philosophical discussion should probably be moved to the Off Topic Tavern.

Thank you.
#2
gamer_zer0
Jul 06, 2008 14:54:45 I've created another thread here for people to continue the discussion. Please feel free to start a new thread for any side discussions that you think are worth exploring as well.
#3
Book5
Jul 06, 2008 15:55:03 I love it when I can make a difference.

I was under the impression that discussion of real world religion and politics were forboden on these forums. Interestingly - I just checked the CoC and that is no longer the case. For that matter is says nothing about not posting drunk (woot) - which I am absolutely certain it used to. That said - there is a really good reason that such a thing used to be in the CoC and such things like the link to Chick's website are automatically banned.

The mere topic is baiting. Sorry - but as you saw the discussion went from anecdotes to proselytizing in about 5 pages. From there it went into a back and forth between a couple of people (with agendas of psuedo-conversion no less) and by page 16 was a discussion about what free speech is/was about .... religion and politics - yeesh (hehehe "+ua?" - that is a curse btw just like jeez/geez/jays - "+us" see).

For the record free speech is not unlimited free speech everywhere - just like shops have the right to refuse service to anyone (and in the "olden days" bars and stuff would in fact expel people for talking about .. politics or religion) - gleemax has the right to limit the speech they are broadcasting to their members. I think the only way to have a civil discussion on the subject is if the posts were mod-approved only. Even then there is no way someone is not going to feel antagonized. Religion is a personal thing. If you wanna talk about it (something I do like to do - but...) do it with members of your own faith - or on your blog - or hey - how about at your church?
#4
horatioatthebridge
Jul 06, 2008 16:19:34
I've created another thread here for people to continue the discussion. Please feel free to start a new thread for any side discussions that you think are worth exploring as well.

Thank you very much! I do realize that you are well within your rights, as Book5 said, to ban these or any other topics (like katanas >.>) if you so choose, so I appreciate what you're doing for us to create this space to continue the discussion.

As to the question of the legitimacy of politics and religion discussions...yes, they tend to result in a lot of acrimony on both sides, but they're interesting discussions worth having with people outside your faith. Given that you're not likely to find many such people in your church, such conversations are most likely going to happen in relatively public areas. While a particular organization is well within their rights to ban such discussions for the sake of peace on their property, I don't think there's any real moral imperative to make such a ban. The posters involved do have such an imperative to respect each other and those nearby who can't help but overhear, however. If they can't do that, then the property owner should definitely put a stop to things, the same as they'd put a stop to any other rowdy behavior. In other words, it's not the conversations themselves that are bad (and in fact, they can be very beneficial), but rather the behavior around them that's bad. And this is true of pretty much anything (like katanas >.>).
#5
the_ubbergeek
Jul 06, 2008 17:16:18 Dragonboobs may be the next Katanas soon...
#6
lord_karsus
Jul 06, 2008 23:34:41
I was under the impression that discussion of real world religion and politics were forboden on these forums. Interestingly - I just checked the CoC and that is no longer the case.

-It's an unwritten rule, as 99% of the time, it leads to baiting/trolling/flaming.

For the record free speech is not unlimited free speech everywhere - just like shops have the right to refuse service to anyone (and in the "olden days" bars and stuff would in fact expel people for talking about .. politics or religion) - gleemax has the right to limit the speech they are broadcasting to their members.

-Concerning this, everyone has the right to express their opinions, so long as they don't fall out of bounds, in relation to the Code of Conduct (which prohibits such discussion, as per the above unwritten rule). And, of course, it's all up to the interpretation of whatever WizO is viewing it.
#7
apollyonschosen
Jul 07, 2008 22:52:32 That thread was more of a "GOD DOES NOT EXIST HERES WHY" thread and i thought it sucked.
#8
horatioatthebridge
Jul 08, 2008 11:41:32
That thread was more of a "GOD DOES NOT EXIST HERES WHY" thread and i thought it sucked.

I saw it more as an opportunity for people to express their views, and the reasons for them. The fact of the matter is that there are a lot of people who don't believe that God exists. As strange, foreign, and blind to obvious truth as that may seem to you, people who believe that are generally not idiots. They've got reasons for their beliefs, and the thread was about discussing those reasons (and to be fair, those of us who do believe in God got more than a fair chance to discuss our reasons). Getting to the roots of the issue, rather than yelling back and forth "My position is obviously right and if you don't agree there's something wrong with you!", is what made that an interesting and valuable discussion. In other words, it's the "here's why" that really intrigued me, and I think that discussions of that sort (the "here's why" sort), are quite valuable. YMMV
#9
apollyonschosen
Jul 08, 2008 19:08:56 Usually people who do or do not believe in God, are pretty set in their belief and nothing would convince them otherwise. It was just a little depressing to see how many people really don't believe. I don't question their beliefs, i just found them sad. I am sure they view mine in much the same light.
#10
lord_karsus
Jul 08, 2008 19:55:44
Usually people who do or do not believe in God, are pretty set in their belief and nothing would convince them otherwise.

-Especially random, faceless people on the internet. ;)
#11
Lineov
Jul 30, 2008 23:23:13
-Especially random, faceless people on the internet. ;)

I think XKCD put it best here hold your mouse over the comic if you don't understand.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 horatioatthebridge Jul 06, 2008 14:44:53	The original thread "Christians and DnD" was on the General Discussion forum, and was recently closed due to complaints about it. I understand that the subject matter was sensitive and that the conversation had drifted far away from the original post, so I would completely understand if the moderators chose to delete, move, split, or otherwise change the thread, but I wanted to go on record with the following: In the midst of all the flaming, baiting, and other poor behavior in the edition wars currently going on in the General Discussion forum, the "Christians and DnD" thread was a surprisingly civil and respectful discussion of a very divisive issue. There were a few disruptive posts, but for the most part people did a good job keeping themselves in check when faced with difficult material and opinions which challenged their beliefs and behaved with a great deal of respect toward each other. I found the thread to be a pleasant and intellectually stimulating discussion, and enjoyed reading all the various views presented there. While the moderators are considering what to do with that thread, I would politely request that they split the thread into the original topic (Christian and other religion's perspectives on the game of DnD) and into a philosophical discussion topic to encompass many of the interesting discussions that came up there. The philosophical discussion should probably be moved to the Off Topic Tavern. Thank you.
#2 gamer_zer0 Jul 06, 2008 14:54:45	I've created another thread here for people to continue the discussion. Please feel free to start a new thread for any side discussions that you think are worth exploring as well.
#3 Book5 Jul 06, 2008 15:55:03	I love it when I can make a difference. I was under the impression that discussion of real world religion and politics were forboden on these forums. Interestingly - I just checked the CoC and that is no longer the case. For that matter is says nothing about not posting drunk (woot) - which I am absolutely certain it used to. That said - there is a really good reason that such a thing used to be in the CoC and such things like the link to Chick's website are automatically banned. The mere topic is baiting. Sorry - but as you saw the discussion went from anecdotes to proselytizing in about 5 pages. From there it went into a back and forth between a couple of people (with agendas of psuedo-conversion no less) and by page 16 was a discussion about what free speech is/was about .... religion and politics - yeesh (hehehe "+ua?" - that is a curse btw just like jeez/geez/jays - "+us" see). For the record free speech is not unlimited free speech everywhere - just like shops have the right to refuse service to anyone (and in the "olden days" bars and stuff would in fact expel people for talking about .. politics or religion) - gleemax has the right to limit the speech they are broadcasting to their members. I think the only way to have a civil discussion on the subject is if the posts were mod-approved only. Even then there is no way someone is not going to feel antagonized. Religion is a personal thing. If you wanna talk about it (something I do like to do - but...) do it with members of your own faith - or on your blog - or hey - how about at your church?
#4 horatioatthebridge Jul 06, 2008 16:19:34	I've created another thread here for people to continue the discussion. Please feel free to start a new thread for any side discussions that you think are worth exploring as well. Thank you very much! I do realize that you are well within your rights, as Book5 said, to ban these or any other topics (like katanas >.>) if you so choose, so I appreciate what you're doing for us to create this space to continue the discussion. As to the question of the legitimacy of politics and religion discussions...yes, they tend to result in a lot of acrimony on both sides, but they're interesting discussions worth having with people outside your faith. Given that you're not likely to find many such people in your church, such conversations are most likely going to happen in relatively public areas. While a particular organization is well within their rights to ban such discussions for the sake of peace on their property, I don't think there's any real moral imperative to make such a ban. The posters involved do have such an imperative to respect each other and those nearby who can't help but overhear, however. If they can't do that, then the property owner should definitely put a stop to things, the same as they'd put a stop to any other rowdy behavior. In other words, it's not the conversations themselves that are bad (and in fact, they can be very beneficial), but rather the behavior around them that's bad. And this is true of pretty much anything (like katanas >.>).
#5 the_ubbergeek Jul 06, 2008 17:16:18	Dragonboobs may be the next Katanas soon...
#6 lord_karsus Jul 06, 2008 23:34:41	I was under the impression that discussion of real world religion and politics were forboden on these forums. Interestingly - I just checked the CoC and that is no longer the case. -It's an unwritten rule, as 99% of the time, it leads to baiting/trolling/flaming. For the record free speech is not unlimited free speech everywhere - just like shops have the right to refuse service to anyone (and in the "olden days" bars and stuff would in fact expel people for talking about .. politics or religion) - gleemax has the right to limit the speech they are broadcasting to their members. -Concerning this, everyone has the right to express their opinions, so long as they don't fall out of bounds, in relation to the Code of Conduct (which prohibits such discussion, as per the above unwritten rule). And, of course, it's all up to the interpretation of whatever WizO is viewing it.
#7 apollyonschosen Jul 07, 2008 22:52:32	That thread was more of a "GOD DOES NOT EXIST HERES WHY" thread and i thought it sucked.
#8 horatioatthebridge Jul 08, 2008 11:41:32	That thread was more of a "GOD DOES NOT EXIST HERES WHY" thread and i thought it sucked. I saw it more as an opportunity for people to express their views, and the reasons for them. The fact of the matter is that there are a lot of people who don't believe that God exists. As strange, foreign, and blind to obvious truth as that may seem to you, people who believe that are generally not idiots. They've got reasons for their beliefs, and the thread was about discussing those reasons (and to be fair, those of us who do believe in God got more than a fair chance to discuss our reasons). Getting to the roots of the issue, rather than yelling back and forth "My position is obviously right and if you don't agree there's something wrong with you!", is what made that an interesting and valuable discussion. In other words, it's the "here's why" that really intrigued me, and I think that discussions of that sort (the "here's why" sort), are quite valuable. YMMV
#9 apollyonschosen Jul 08, 2008 19:08:56	Usually people who do or do not believe in God, are pretty set in their belief and nothing would convince them otherwise. It was just a little depressing to see how many people really don't believe. I don't question their beliefs, i just found them sad. I am sure they view mine in much the same light.
#10 lord_karsus Jul 08, 2008 19:55:44	Usually people who do or do not believe in God, are pretty set in their belief and nothing would convince them otherwise. -Especially random, faceless people on the internet. ;)
#11 Lineov Jul 30, 2008 23:23:13	-Especially random, faceless people on the internet. ;) I think XKCD put it best here hold your mouse over the comic if you don't understand.