"Wizards of the Coast today announced the decision to discontinue its Gleemax social networking site in order to focus on digital initiatives for core brands Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons.
“We have the two best games in the world,” said Randy Buehler, VP of Digital Games for Wizards of the Coast, “we need to take care of them before expanding into new digital arenas.”
Redirecting development resources accelerates the completion of new features and functionality for D&D Insider and Magic Online III."
Personally, I won't regret it. I could not stand the lag, serial maintenance and what must have been one of the most horrible site layout ever created.
I also never quite understood what Hasbro/WoTC was trying to achieve with it. Social networking? Does flamewars count as social networking?
Good news:
"Wizards of the Coast today announced the decision to discontinue its Gleemax social networking site in order to focus on digital initiatives for core brands Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons.
“We have the two best games in the world,” said Randy Buehler, VP of Digital Games for Wizards of the Coast, “we need to take care of them before expanding into new digital arenas.”
Redirecting development resources accelerates the completion of new features and functionality for D&D Insider and Magic Online III."
Personally, I won't regret it. I could not stand the lag, serial maintenance and what must have been one of the most horrible site layout ever created.
I also never quite understood what Hasbro/WoTC was trying to achieve with it. Social networking? Does flamewars count as social networking?
The flamewars were on the forums, which will remain.
Good news:
"Wizards of the Coast today announced the decision to discontinue its Gleemax social networking site in order to focus on digital initiatives for core brands Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons.
“We have the two best games in the world,” said Randy Buehler, VP of Digital Games for Wizards of the Coast, “we need to take care of them before expanding into new digital arenas.”
Redirecting development resources accelerates the completion of new features and functionality for D&D Insider and Magic Online III."
Personally, I won't regret it. I could not stand the lag, serial maintenance and what must have been one of the most horrible site layout ever created.
I also never quite understood what Hasbro/WoTC was trying to achieve with it. Social networking? Does flamewars count as social networking?
I don't see anything good about this AT ALL. I am not a fan of gleemax, but I am a fan of this NICHE industry. GLEEMAX going down bodes ill.
I just read the HASBRO quarterly report on enworld. D&D was not even MENTIONED. It does not generate enough revenue to earn mention at the financial meetings (Anotehr poster on enworld says he has transcripts going back to 2000; D&D is NEVER mentioned. Hasbro (From an uninformed outside observation) says their game market is in three tiers: Boards/puzzles, Electronic. trading cards: which INCLUDES RPG. (Includes?).
WHat does this mean? D&D does not generate alot of revenue. At the moment it is still profitable. But what happens if D&D insider flops as well. Are we all going to laugh and say "Good job WOTC! You noobs screwed up again!"? No we will be saddened because it could well signal the death blow to Wotc.
In a 2006 (I beleive) conference call Hasbro was touting their Gleemax site idea to financial analysts. Hasbro suits new about that, and new it would be good revenue. But they were wrong. Now they MUST be questioning how profitable D&DI is going to be.
D&DI if it works well will be a cash cow for this small niche. If it fails (The jury is still out on whether or not it will) we might be able to see WOTC take a hike. This is a bad thing for the industry. IF WOTC dies, Hasbro will still hold the rights to D&D, and mostly will not release it to ANYONE.
WOTC is the big fish in the gaming industry. But as these conference calls show... it is a big fish in a little pond. They are like the cleaner fish to the shark that is HASBRO. If hasbro shuts its mouth and swallows, we will not see D&D in any recognizable form.
Other game companies will keep the hobby going, but the hobby will not grow. And even if it did, WOTC fading would be like the Palisades PArk shutting down. A fun place one could remember.
This was copied from ENWORLD:
From conference call, specifically addressing games:
Our games and puzzle business was up 12% for the quarter, with our top performer Monopoly up 26%, primarily due to the continued strength of Monopoly Electronic Banking.
We are looking forward to launching the first ever global Monopoly Here & Now The World Edition in August. In addition to Monopoly, a number of our games performed well in the quarter, including Trivial Pursuit, Twister, Operation, and the Game of Life. Our Wizards of the Coast trading card game Duel Masters is doing very well in Japan.
Hasbro's Family Game Night will be returning this Fall, with a promotional program for a number of our board games targeted to Today's families. Family game night will also gain a foothold in the digital arena this Fall, when Electronic Arts launches it's Family Game Night offering, featuring reimagined versions of some of Hasbro's classics, like Connect Four, Battleship, Yahtzee , Boggle, and Sorry.
Not even a MENTION of 4e? This just shows that D&D does not generate NEARLY enough nevenue to be on HASBRO's RADAR.
If this is the case... it would mean NOTHING to hasbro to drop D&D. If they do, they will hold on to the rights, and D&D will be no more. I cannot imagine them SELLING the rights to ANYONE. No matter how well D&D 4e sells, if D&DI crashes, they will drop 4e.
That conference call makes me laugh at the $E references:D
I don't see anything good about this AT ALL. I am not a fan of gleemax, but I am a fan of this NICHE industry. GLEEMAX going down bodes ill.
I just read the HASBRO quarterly report on enworld. D&D was not even MENTIONED. It does not generate enough revenue to earn mention at the financial meetings (Anotehr poster on enworld says he has transcripts going back to 2000; D&D is NEVER mentioned. Hasbro (From an uninformed outside observation) says their game market is in three tiers: Boards/puzzles, Electronic. trading cards: which INCLUDES RPG. (Includes?).
WHat does this mean? D&D does not generate alot of revenue. At the moment it is still profitable. But what happens if D&D insider flops as well. Are we all going to laugh and say "Good job WOTC! You noobs screwed up again!"? No we will be saddened because it could well signal the death blow to Wotc.
In a 2006 (I beleive) conference call Hasbro was touting their Gleemax site idea to financial analysts. Hasbro suits new about that, and new it would be good revenue. But they were wrong. Now they MUST be questioning how profitable D&DI is going to be.
D&DI if it works well will be a cash cow for this small niche. If it fails (The jury is still out on whether or not it will) we might be able to see WOTC take a hike. This is a bad thing for the industry. IF WOTC dies, Hasbro will still hold the rights to D&D, and mostly will not release it to ANYONE.
WOTC is the big fish in the gaming industry. But as these conference calls show... it is a big fish in a little pond. They are like the cleaner fish to the shark that is HASBRO. If hasbro shuts its mouth and swallows, we will not see D&D in any recognizable form.
Other game companies will keep the hobby going, but the hobby will not grow. And even if it did, WOTC fading would be like the Palisades PArk shutting down. A fun place one could remember.
I am not so sure the death of D&D would be such a bad thing. There will still be a market and smaller, more passionate companies than Hasbro will rush in to sieze it. We might see some interesting innovations during that period. If anything the Hasbro reign seems to have stagnated the hobby more than anything else.
No matter how well D&D 4e sells, if D&DI crashes, they will drop 4e.
...
oh ****...PLEASE don't stop making D&D! Start petitions now! SAVE OUR HOBBY!
No matter how well D&D 4e sells, if D&DI crashes, they will drop 4e.
You mean, a corporation not owned or run by gamers wouldn't have DnD anymore?
As long as someone else, perhaps a company that would truly appreciate the franchise picks it up, I can't see that being a bad thing.
I seriously doubt Hasbro dropping DnD would spell the end of DnD.
You mean, a corporation not owned or run by gamers wouldn't have DnD anymore?
As long as someone else, perhaps a company that would truly appreciate the franchise picks it up, I can't see that being a bad thing.
I seriously doubt Hasbro dropping DnD would spell the end of DnD.
Except there are many brands that Hasbro has, are not producing, and will not sell or license.
I am fine. I have all the previous editions, and most likely would go back to the one I like best if none of the others were supported.
I am not in a panic, because I can run games forever with or without WOTC.
I would just be sad because the entity that is Dungeons and Dragons would not exist as DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. It would be named something else, as Hasbro cryo freezes D&D.
Except there are many brands that Hasbro has, are not producing, and will not sell or license.
I am fine. I have all the previous editions, and most likely would go back to the one I like best if none of the others were supported.
I am not in a panic, because I can run games forever with or without WOTC.
I would just be sad because the entity that is Dungeons and Dragons would not exist as DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. It would be named something else, as Hasbro cryo freezes D&D.
Yes, Hasbro had a habit of gobbling up other RPGs and then doing nothing with them (I am pretty sure they own the rights to the Dune Role Playing Game).
Except there are many brands that Hasbro has, are not producing, and will not sell or license.
I am fine. I have all the previous editions, and most likely would go back to the one I like best if none of the others were supported.
I am not in a panic, because I can run games forever with or without WOTC.
I would just be sad because the entity that is Dungeons and Dragons would not exist as DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. It would be named something else, as Hasbro cryo freezes D&D.
Yes, Hasbro had a habit of gobbling up other RPGs and then doing nothing with them (I am pretty sure they own the rights to the Dune Role Playing Game).
Except there are many brands that Hasbro has, are not producing, and will not sell or license.
I am fine. I have all the previous editions, and most likely would go back to the one I like best if none of the others were supported.
I am not in a panic, because I can run games forever with or without WOTC.
I would just be sad because the entity that is Dungeons and Dragons would not exist as DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. It would be named something else, as Hasbro cryo freezes D&D.
Yes, Hasbro had a habit of gobbling up other RPGs and then doing nothing with them (I am pretty sure they own the rights to the Dune Role Playing Game).
Yes, Hasbro had a habit of gobbling up other RPGs and then doing nothing with them (I am pretty sure they own the rights to the Dune Role Playing Game).
Another problem with Gleemax, the infamouse triple post! Thank you Lordflashheart for being our model.
I appreciate the fact that WoTC creates jobs for people in the gaming industry, and I buy the core products to support those people and their creativity. But, at this point, as long as people get together, sit around a table, and engage in role-playing, DnD can't die.
Not even a MENTION of 4e? This just shows that D&D does not generate NEARLY enough nevenue to be on HASBRO's RADAR.
It "shows" no such thing. Come on, Hasbro did over 3/4 of a BILLION dollars in one quarter. Even if 4E contributed $5 million (which it wouldn't have), that would still be under 1% of revenue. In other words, it could have exceeded expectations, and probably still not have merited its first ever mention in a conference call. And yet you're making the jump from "We had a great quarter in a bad economy" to "Oh noes, they're going to kill D&D!!!!"? Weird.
Hasbro has thousands of products, hundreds of product lines, dozens of divisions and subsidiaries. It's silly to freak out over the absence of news. Arguably, the fact that WOTC was mentioned is the good news, because it means they're likely seen as contributing to the bottom line, "doing it right", and making shareholders happy. I have no way of knowing that for sure, no more than anyone here knows that there's bad news in store for WOTC. But if you just read the words without adding an agenda to it, I think you'll see which scenario appears more likely.
It "shows" no such thing. Come on, Hasbro did over 3/4 of a BILLION dollars in one quarter. Even if 4E contributed $5 million (which it wouldn't have), that would still be under 1% of revenue. In other words, it could have exceeded expectations, and probably still not have merited its first ever mention in a conference call. And yet you're making the jump from "We had a great quarter in a bad economy" to "Oh noes, they're going to kill D&D!!!!"? Weird.
Hasbro has thousands of products, hundreds of product lines, dozens of divisions and subsidiaries. It's silly to freak out over the absence of news. Arguably, the fact that WOTC was mentioned is the good news, because it means they're likely seen as contributing to the bottom line, "doing it right", and making shareholders happy. I have no way of knowing that for sure, no more than anyone here knows that there's bad news in store for WOTC. But if you just read the words without adding an agenda to it, I think you'll see which scenario appears more likely.
I did not say they were going to drop D&D. I was responding to how GLEEMAX crash could lead to a worse case scenario. THere was no freakout.
GLEEMAX is bad news no matter what.
I don't think that Hasbro would keep D&D, if insider goes belly up that is all.
The jump you claim I made is misreading what I said, not actually what I said. IT was made in response to how we should not be cheerful about any aspect of WOTC crashing.
I did not say they were going to drop D&D. I was responding to how GLEEMAX crash could lead to a worse case scenario. THere was no freakout.
GLEEMAX is bad news no matter what.
I don't think that Hasbro would keep D&D, if insider goes belly up that is all.
The jump you claim I made is misreading what I said, not actually what I said. IT was made in response to how we should not be cheerful about any aspect of WOTC crashing.
For someone not familiar with your writing style, it wouldn't be hard for someone to take the wording of your post as a freakout. Especially when taken in context of the already emotionally charged content of this thread.
On the point of the "death" of Gleemax, I do not believe its dead, only going into a torpor until WotC's other digital endeavors have been addressed.
Though I do believe that if DDI does not do well, D&D is going to be hit, but its not going to be hit hard, its to reliable of a small influx of money for it to be killed completely. Even, at a worst case scenario, it only lives on as just reprinting the core books with no other (non 3PP) support, as long as the Magic and Star Wars licenses are making money WotC will still be able to make D&D as their pet project.
I just read the HASBRO quarterly report on enworld. D&D was not even MENTIONED. It does not generate enough revenue to earn mention at the financial meetings (Anotehr poster on enworld says he has transcripts going back to 2000; D&D is NEVER mentioned. Hasbro (From an uninformed outside observation) says their game market is in three tiers: Boards/puzzles, Electronic. trading cards: which INCLUDES RPG. (Includes?).
That's because WotC is WotC. What would you expect? D&D is part of WotC, which was primiarly purchased for trading card power. Note that miniatures aren't mentioned either, but they make a pretty penny off of that as well.
In a 2006 (I beleive) conference call Hasbro was touting their Gleemax site idea to financial analysts. Hasbro suits new about that, and new it would be good revenue. But they were wrong. Now they MUST be questioning how profitable D&DI is going to be.
DDI actually has the potential to make money. What was Gleemax going to do?
D&DI if it works well will be a cash cow for this small niche. If it fails (The jury is still out on whether or not it will) we might be able to see WOTC take a hike. This is a bad thing for the industry. IF WOTC dies, Hasbro will still hold the rights to D&D, and mostly will not release it to ANYONE.
Well, duh. If DDI dies, it won't kill D&D, and the idea that it would is just silly. The DDI isn't necessary for D&D.
If this is the case... it would mean NOTHING to hasbro to drop D&D. If they do, they will hold on to the rights, and D&D will be no more. I cannot imagine them SELLING the rights to ANYONE. No matter how well D&D 4e sells, if D&DI crashes, they will drop 4e.
Seriously, do you guys have any grasp on reality?
They supported 3e. There was no DDI for that.
DDI is entirely incidental to the success of the D&D game and the D&D brand. If DDI fails, Hasbro won't really care, they'll just kill DDI. The idea that they'd kill D&D is silly.
Can people please start thinking?
DDI is not equivalent to D&D.
If DDI is not profitable, that doesn't mean D&D isn't otherwise profitable.
The idea that they'd drop D&D because DDI is not profitable is hilarious and laughable. They'd just kill what isn't profitable - the DDI.
D&D does make them money, as shown by the fact that they made 4e. The 4e core books sold quite well and continue to sell well.
They supported 3e. There was no DDI for that.
True, but there also weren't any online services touted as being an exciting and innovative component to 3e. The DDI was pushed from Day 1 as the Biggest, Best Thing Ever.
DDI is entirely incidental to the success of the D&D game and the D&D brand. If DDI fails, Hasbro won't really care, they'll just kill DDI. The idea that they'd kill D&D is silly.
Can people please start thinking?
DDI is not equivalent to D&D.
If DDI is not profitable, that doesn't mean D&D isn't otherwise profitable.
The idea that they'd drop D&D because DDI is not profitable is hilarious and laughable. They'd just kill what isn't profitable - the DDI.
D&D does make them money, as shown by the fact that they made 4e. The 4e core books sold quite well and continue to sell well.
I mostly agree here. Hasbro will indeed care about the failure of DDI, should it happen, because they pumped money into it. But like you say, D&D will not die. It may be a niche market, but D&D is the king of that niche market.
Most likely heads will roll and the DDI will be outsourced to a corporate partner. I think that Hasbro is smart enough to know that online services are the way to go (as evidenced by Monopoly online, Family Night online, etc.), they won't let that go so easily.
Once the bodies are cleared away and the blood cleaned up, a leaner and meaner Wizards will still be churning out product for 4E. Unless they start work on 5E.
Now I could be wrong But in most case just because they have a company doesn't mean they have the rights to their products. All the new 4e books still say they are trademarks of WotC. If they do go under I don't know who would get the rights but I assume they would still stay with WotC like they did with TSR. Wizard could sell the rights off to some one else. I'm sure lots of companies would be interest in them at the right price. They are stop Gleemax so they can get the other things done for the money and for us the customers and fans.
For they most part companies only care about the percent of increase in profits. Not how much is being made.
The jump you claim I made is misreading what I said, not actually what I said. IT was made in response to how we should not be cheerful about any aspect of WOTC crashing.
My apologies, then. We do agree on this: no one should be dancing on the grave of Gleemax. Not that I think its cancellation is indicative of anything more than has been officially said. I just think it's in bad taste for some folks to take such joy in the demise of something WOTC obviously put time and money into, misguided as it may seem to be in hindsight.
WotC went to hasbro and told them about the new system. Hasbro told WotC they would like to see a xx% increase in sales and xx number of profit margin. By the end of this year. WotC has a bad time with 4e in that some of the fans haven't come around yet. So by projections based on sales right now they are not going to make it.
Your inside information is so precise, I'm surprised you had to put "xx%"!
You are just theorizing, right? Because it seems to me that it's much more likely that the only revenue projections we can say for sure are going to miss the mark are those based on DDI subscription revenue, which obviously won't kick in as soon as they'd intended.
For someone not familiar with your writing style, it wouldn't be hard for someone to take the wording of your post as a freakout. Especially when taken in context of the already emotionally charged content of this thread.
On the point of the "death" of Gleemax, I do not believe its dead, only going into a torpor until WotC's other digital endeavors have been addressed.
Though I do believe that if DDI does not do well, D&D is going to be hit, but its not going to be hit hard, its to reliable of a small influx of money for it to be killed completely. Even, at a worst case scenario, it only lives on as just reprinting the core books with no other (non 3PP) support, as long as the Magic and Star Wars licenses are making money WotC will still be able to make D&D as their pet project.
Well that is fair enough.
I was not offended by anything mechascorpion said, I made my second post to clarify. So apology was accepted, but there was no need for an apology
True, but there also weren't any online services touted as being an exciting and innovative component to 3e. The DDI was pushed from Day 1 as the Biggest, Best Thing Ever.
So you're saying you're gullible and believe all advertising hype?
Seriously, that's really what you're saying. EVERYTHING is always the Biggest, Best Thing Ever (TM). Look at their advertisments of Magic sets, for instance.
Just because they say it is the most awesome thing ever doesn't mean it is, or even that THEY think it is. THEY want to sell it, and they want to sucker YOU into purchasing it.
It isn't life and death.
Most likely heads will roll and the DDI will be outsourced to a corporate partner. I think that Hasbro is smart enough to know that online services are the way to go (as evidenced by Monopoly online, Family Night online, etc.), they won't let that go so easily.
I doubt they'd outsource it; more likely they'd kill it or scale it back and make it cheaper (but more profitable for them) by removing features. If they charged some tiny amount of money but killed Dungeon & Dragon because they believed they were unprofitable in their current format, they could easily make a small amount of money for stuff that they've already paid for (the DDI programs, particularly the VTT) with no real effort or investment on their part.
That's what I'd guess they'd do if the DDI failed in its current form. But I'm not even sure how expensive it is to produce the ezines or what kind of profit they're looking at.
People settle down. It is a business. WotC went to hasbro and told them about the new system. Hasbro told WotC they would like to see a xx% increase in sales and xx number of profit margin. By the end of this year. WotC has a bad time with 4e in that some of the fans haven't come around yet. So by projections based on sales right now they are not going to make it. So they cut spending and try to come up with new place to make money. They will try to rush the D&Di so it comes out this year. They will push for 4e. Trying to bring more people in so they will buy the products. If they make the end of year margins yeah. If not there are any number of things that could happen. Hasbro took WotC because thought it was a money make. If it doesn't after a while they will most likely sale WotC off and make a profit.
People need to see something.
This is that 4e is selling really, really well.
This is reality.
The DDI is going to be an entirely seperate issue.
Gleemax probably got cut because they weren't seeing any sort of increase in traffic as a result or they didn't notice something else that they were hoping to see (goodness knows what their goals with it were, I'm not even sure they knew :P ). Seriously, have you seen a single guy who was here who was like "Well, I don't know what these WotC products are but Gleemax is awesome!" ? I sure haven't.
Anyways. I haven't been on in a very long time. The demise of Gleemax brought me out of hiding. Even if this is the first domino and, let's say for S***TS and giggles that DDI DOES fall flat on it's face. That leading to 4e taking a hit and finally Hasbro giving the heave ho to WotC. It's not the end of D&D or the RPG market. There will be yet another round of innovations and publishers rushing in to shore up the market.
I agree with an earlier post to an extent. I think that WotC did contribute a chunk to the RPG market stagnation. Perhaps if this IS the first card to fall in the WotC house of cards...it could actually be a good thing.
OH and from what I've heard from my FLGS. 4e sales have plateaued in their stores. There was a big rush in the beginning but they are hardly trickling out the doors. What does this mean? I don't know. Just thought I would throw that in there for all the new Pro4e Doom and Gloomers. :D
OH and from what I've heard from my FLGS. 4e sales have plateaued in their stores. There was a big rush in the beginning but they are hardly trickling out the doors. What does this mean? I don't know. Just thought I would throw that in there for all the new Pro4e Doom and Gloomers. :D
Not in my area - D&D Dungeon tiles are rushing out the door. D & D minis of the latest set (Against the Giants) are flying off of the shelves. I saw 40-60 boxes sell in less than 2 days. 4E Book sales are steady.
Hrmmm...Doom and gloom panicking from 4e supporters?! OH my GOSH!! Maybe it's Karma for bashing all the Doom and Gloom 3.x supporters.
lol you think this is doom and gloom, check the archives. This is nothing compared to the feces storms that flew when 4E was announced. No one in this thread has gotten banned for throwing profanities. Good-lord the content filters were put through the wringer in those first few weeks.
OH and from what I've heard from my FLGS. 4e sales have plateaued in their stores. There was a big rush in the beginning but they are hardly trickling out the doors. What does this mean? I don't know. Just thought I would throw that in there for all the new Pro4e Doom and Gloomers. :D
Plateaued is a good thing for WotC. If you knew anything about economics you would know that steady moderate sales over time is always more favorable than an occasional spike between bounts of dismal sales.
And I dunno about your FLGS, but mine is selling out quickly and has had restock every week. And I live in a very Christian conservative red-voting area of my state.
...about 20 Character Sheet packs.
For every anecdotal "It's plateaued, they're shelf warmers, it may be the end of all RPGs!!!" anyone can cite, I'm sure at least two others can say "No it's not."
Still riding high at Amazon and RPGnow, as well. On Amazon WOTC fully dominates slots 1-10 in RPGs (Giftset is #120 overall bestseller), including pre-orders for the 4E FR books.
If that's "Fail", then your definition for "Win" was probably unrealistic.
A WotC spokesperson has informed ICv2 that Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition has already gone back to press more than a week before its scheduled street date next Friday, June 6th. Sell-in of 4th Edition has “far exceeded expectations” and even though the initial print run for 4th Edition was 50% higher than the order for the previous D&D 3.5 Edition, WotC has now realized that it is necessary to go back to press to meet anticipated reorder demand.
Sell-in for 4th Edition turned out to be considerably higher than for 3.5 and the number of pre-orders keeps rising. The D&D 4E Core Rulebook Gift Set made it up to #5 on Amazon.com’s rankings today (Amazon appears to be observing the June 6th street date).
So you're saying you're gullible and believe all advertising hype?
Seriously, that's really what you're saying. EVERYTHING is always the Biggest, Best Thing Ever (TM). Look at their advertisments of Magic sets, for instance.
Just because they say it is the most awesome thing ever doesn't mean it is, or even that THEY think it is. THEY want to sell it, and they want to sucker YOU into purchasing it.
It isn't life and death.
I doubt they'd outsource it; more likely they'd kill it or scale it back and make it cheaper (but more profitable for them) by removing features. If they charged some tiny amount of money but killed Dungeon & Dragon because they believed they were unprofitable in their current format, they could easily make a small amount of money for stuff that they've already paid for (the DDI programs, particularly the VTT) with no real effort or investment on their part.
That's what I'd guess they'd do if the DDI failed in its current form. But I'm not even sure how expensive it is to produce the ezines or what kind of profit they're looking at.
People need to see something.
This is that 4e is selling really, really well.
This is reality.
The DDI is going to be an entirely seperate issue.
Gleemax probably got cut because they weren't seeing any sort of increase in traffic as a result or they didn't notice something else that they were hoping to see (goodness knows what their goals with it were, I'm not even sure they knew :P ). Seriously, have you seen a single guy who was here who was like "Well, I don't know what these WotC products are but Gleemax is awesome!" ? I sure haven't.
I thought that it was a given that it was a example not what really happened. That is how they,all companies, do it. As long as WotC makes it on sells and profit margins Hasbro isn't going to so much of anything.
I love 4e and all but they ran better before gleemax. It has only caused more head aches then it is worth. Maybe after the D&Di is finished they can fix it or something but I say good riddens. I mean if it works great but if not why keep it around.
I don't understand the relationship Gleemax has with Hasbro/WotC other than they are the ones who host these boards and I guess from the quotes above some on-line gaming.
When I had trouble activating my account after I joined, a Wizards tech helped me with my Gleemax account. The email actually thanked me for my input on the "Gleemax Alpha release" which made me think Gleemax was new to hosting these boards, or at least doing a new software release for the site.
I'm just starting to get my feet wet in the community, and want to know what to expect in the way of changes, if there are any.
That or Wotc actually looked at how often the forums go down... and decided Gleemax had to go.
I'd say thats it, since the guys at WotC aren't as stupid a some people think. With all the trouble they've had just keeping the forums up with gleemax (not counting the endless number of bugs and glitches that plague it) its obvious its time to say farewell to Gleemax (Finally.)
Moreover, D&D won't die even if WoTC gives up on it. They'll just sell its IP to somebody else - maybe Fantasy Flight Games or Green Ronin.
Wicked Witch of course had a W replaced with another letter.
We also laughed at the stupidity of WotC trying to compete with companies like Google and such that own Facebook and MYSpace, as if gamers wanted that crap. Not to mention the fact the news came with "we will now focus our attentions" comment that obviously showed that WotC had been unfocused in its endeavors thus far towards "digital gaming" as they called it, and remarked how they could have come out and acknowledged they screwed up to begin with with this blogging site crap rather than making other excuses and acting like the public was stupid and couldn't see why DDI was not yet working.
We also made bets on who would take the final heat and be labeled with us as the new Lorraine Williams of WotC.
I think WotC needs to give up this childish ambition for good, and realize that people who want blogging sites and such are not hard-core gamers.
There are plenty of forums dedicated to games, but they serve the needs of the users. Conversation and discussion of like minded people, or at least people caring about the same subject.
So give up this nonsense and focus on what you know how to do, and let the MYSpace and Facebook type sites do their thing. Otherwise WotC might as well try to make other crap useless products like the final days that killed T$R that cost much more than the return will ever be.
I hope the stupid gleemax hardware that was shown at that convention last year is burned and sacrificed to appease the gaming gods to get WotC back in the good graces of its customers, if they have a chance left to do so.
All hail and cheer for the death of the dumbest idea related to gaming: Gleemax!
WotC screwed up and have no one to blame but themselves, for not knowing how to manage their resources. Odd, but makes sense why they wanted 4th edition to have less resource management...so they could udnerstand it.
But they had too few people to do the job, because they wasted money on something that was not very well thoguht out.
What other "product" will have that poor planning in the near future?
Growing a business involves taking risks. Some of these risks will work, some of them will not.
GleeMax, while a good idea, didn't work out. :shrug: Part of doing business.
So... Does this mean there will be changes to the boards or site?
*sigh*
I wrote a detailed reply, but the board hiccupped and now it's lost.
Short answer: we probably won't see any changes to the Wizards Community sections including this board, the main WOTC site, the D&D section, nor DDI when it's launched. Gleemax was a "bigger picture" project, and the parts that don't really relate to D&D or Magic are going away.
Not even a MENTION of 4e? This just shows that D&D does not generate NEARLY enough nevenue to be on HASBRO's RADAR.
That's cos it is made by WotC, which is owned by Hasbro. It is different than being produced directly by Hasbro.
Moreover, D&D won't die even if WoTC gives up on it. They'll just sell its IP to somebody else - maybe Fantasy Flight Games or Green Ronin.
All signs point to No. Hasbro also has a record of sitting on licenses they own and not letting anyone else use them. D&D and most of its sublicenses will just sit in a file somewhere titled "we took our toys and went home".
The game D&D will live one, but under a different name, like Pathfinder, True20 Fantasy, Castles and Crusades, Tunnels and Trolls, etc ... even Hackmaster but not under the name of Dungeons and Dragons. If WotC stops making D&D the name dies there.
*sigh*
I wrote a detailed reply, but the board hiccupped and now it's lost.
Short answer: we probably won't see any changes to the Wizards Community sections including this board, the main WOTC site, the D&D section, nor DDI when it's launched. Gleemax was a "bigger picture" project, and the parts that don't really relate to D&D or Magic are going away.
Great, I really didn't want to have to muddle through another site shift, migration, database merge, or upgrade thing. Hopefully any transition will be smooth for the community.
Thank you mechascorpio.
And all of a sudden, the Monday Morning MBAs come out of the woodwork.
Growing a business involves taking risks. Some of these risks will work, some of them will not.
GleeMax, while a good idea, didn't work out. :shrug: Part of doing business.
The point it, it was never a good idea. It was an awful idea.
"mySpace for gamers" is idiotic because gamers already use mySpace anyway if they're inclined to blog.
Billing your site as the one stop shop for all gamers is doubly idiotic when your primary revenue stream comes from selling games - it's called a "glaring conflict of interest" and basically undermines your site's credibility (It's worth noting that not a single gaming partner signed up for Gleemax. None).
Worse, coming out with what was frankly crappy software for its launch pretty much assured the site's death. Calling it an Alpha is, as I have said in the past, mere excuse-making for shoddy programming.
Some of us here are actually pretty knowledgeable about doing business over the Internet you know (and who are close to completing their Masters degree in Marketing :P). And Gleemax had all the signs of being yet another, poorly thought-out dot com.
We've still got lots of failed dotcom execs from the 90s whining about how their "good idea" didn't work out. Fact of the matter is, their ideas were often simply awful, and if it wasn't the implementation was a disaster. Gleemax was both born out of a bad idea and wiped out by poor implementation.
In short, Gleemax is no Google or Yahoo. It rightly belongs with the pile of dead dotcoms that were slaughtered after the "bubble" burst in 2000. The free market has spoken. Good riddance.
All signs point to No. Hasbro also has a record of sitting on licenses they own and not letting anyone else use them. D&D and most of its sublicenses will just sit in a file somewhere titled "we took our toys and went home".
The game D&D will live one, but under a different name, like Pathfinder, True20 Fantasy, Castles and Crusades, Tunnels and Trolls, etc ... even Hackmaster but not under the name of Dungeons and Dragons. If WotC stops making D&D the name dies there.
Not really. They do generally sell IP when they're a little short on their cash targets. It's a standard Finance tactic to impress the board :P.
Did you look at the games listed under "Family Game Night"? Those are simple games for families. D&D is not, hence it won't be part of that ad campaign. Regardless, I'm sure Hasbro/WotC isn't abandoning D&D any time soon. It may be a niche game, but it's easily the biggest game in that niche.
Not really. They do generally sell IP when they're a little short on their cash targets. It's a standard Finance tactic to impress the board :P.
Selling D&D wouldn't impact their "cash targets" in any manner that justifies the effort to do so. Like other IP that Hasbro lets sit fallow, D&D will probably disappear as a brand.
Thinking that they would sell to Green Ronin is just so much wishful thinking. Don't get your hopes up.
That's cos it is made by WotC, which is owned by Hasbro. It is different than being produced directly by Hasbro.
They did mention a WOTC product selling well in Japan. It is unlikely that there is ever a WOTC conference call with these financial institutions. My untrained business mind suspects that Hasbro will report all of WOTC's gains, etc. to the press.
Not really. They do generally sell IP when they're a little short on their cash targets. It's a standard Finance tactic to impress the board :P.
Well I doubt HASBRO is going to to fall short on cash any time soon. Their majour boy lines are based off of comic book movies. They are going to ride that wave through this ecomomy, while many other companies crash.
Not really. They do generally sell IP when they're a little short on their cash targets. It's a standard Finance tactic to impress the board :P.
Selling D&D will do nothing for Hasbro. Yeah, it might bring in 100-500 thousand dollars, but that is a drop in the bucket, at best less than .5% of their yearly income.
Assuming 4E dies (which I do not believe it will), selling the D&D license will be far more hassle than its worth to Hasbro.
Billing your site as the one stop shop for all gamers is doubly idiotic when your primary revenue stream comes from selling games - it's called a "glaring conflict of interest" and basically undermines your site's credibility (It's worth noting that not a single gaming partner signed up for Gleemax. None).
Sadly it seems many people at WotC and in their employ do not understand what "conflict of interest" means.
They did mention a WOTC product selling well in Japan. It is unlikely that there is ever a WOTC conference call with these financial institutions. My untrained business mind suspects that Hasbro will report all of WOTC's gains, etc. to the press.
Speaking of Japan, it reminded me of another failure that Glemax is similar to. Microsoft trying to get a foot in the door let alone some major market for the XBOX in Japan. Well that didn't work to well did it? They didn't understand the audience they were looking at and like WotC often does they decided they new what was best for the customers and the customers would just latch on to any idea.
I think Microsoft is finally the 5th best selling gaming system in Japan...behind the Nintendo DS and Playstation Portable.
This is the kind of thing Gleemax reminded me of, but I couldn't pin it down until you mentioned Japan.
It "shows" no such thing. Come on, Hasbro did over 3/4 of a BILLION dollars in one quarter. Even if 4E contributed $5 million (which it wouldn't have), that would still be under 1% of revenue. In other words, it could have exceeded expectations, and probably still not have merited its first ever mention in a conference call. And yet you're making the jump from "We had a great quarter in a bad economy" to "Oh noes, they're going to kill D&D!!!!"? Weird.
No kidding. WotC has said on several occasions that the bulk of D&D's revenue comes from the core rulebooks, whose 4E gift sets had a second printing even before the release date. Many online sellers couldn't even keep them in stock. Without knowing any exact sales figures, I'd be willing to guess that 4E is doing well.
I suspect the death of Gleemax has more to do with the much-criticized delay of D&DI. This was even hinted at in the press release. It seems Wizards was just spreading themselves too thin trying to launch both practically at the same time.
D&D may only be mildly profitable. But what about MtG, and all the other lines of products WotC produces? I'm sure those (considering they have an area of product reports practicallly devoted to WotC products [trading cards and RPGs...does any other part of Hasbro even market these things?]) are profitable enough combined to make WoTc profitable. Duelmasters, one TCG franchise, was mentioned as doing very well. If I've been reading websites correctly, that's a WotC product. Dropping WotC would be bad business at best, and just plain stupid, possibly harmful, at worst.
There is also the fact that while the RPG side of D&D may not make buckets of money, the novels side most certainly does make buckets of money.
Most of which goes to printing houses and retailers, not unlike RPG books, but I think RPG markup is less than novels.
How many novels will be left with the few setting remaining?
DragonLance is gone.
You have the Baker's Rich/Keith.
There is Ed and Salvatore
And that is the major worlds major authors. Either way neither is a main concern for Hasbro I am sure.
WotC = MtG as far as profits I would wager in Hasbro mind and when they look at the botom line for WotC to know if they will be allowed to run themselves or have someone else step in and take over.
I mean come on! OpenRPG has accomplished more and they aren't even making money.
WotC needs to come up with a way to spruce up something similar to openrpg, maybe 3-D, but still turn based chess board like movement for now. Then, make it possible to convert entire adventures/maps into the software and share it. Charge a monthly fee depending on how much it costs to maintain. If players are providing the maps/adventures then WotC would have to staff the thing with volunteer DMs to run Living campaigns. If WotC pushed a massive wave of adventure modules to supplement player made ones then they could probably get away with no paid-DMs online.
We'll see if DDI meets this simple demand.
WotC needs to come up with a way to spruce up something similar to openrpg, maybe 3-D, but still turn based chess board like movement for now. Then, make it possible to convert entire adventures/maps into the software and share it. Charge a monthly fee depending on how much it costs to maintain. If players are providing the maps/adventures then WotC would have to staff the thing with volunteer DMs to run Living campaigns. If WotC pushed a massive wave of adventure modules to supplement player made ones then they could probably get away with no paid-DMs online.
Ofcourse, there was a time when RPGs were nothing like Chess...
Havard
I prefer to put up with the delay, then enjoy a product that looks good and works well when it finally does come out.
I hope the marketing strategy focuses on volume of customers, rather than high prices. Cheap prices with a high-quality product energizes the RPG market by welcoming newbies.
No kidding. WotC has said on several occasions that the bulk of D&D's revenue comes from the core rulebooks, whose 4E gift sets had a second printing even before the release date. Many online sellers couldn't even keep them in stock. Without knowing any exact sales figures, I'd be willing to guess that 4E is doing well.
I don't think that's accurate. As one of the Amazon Orphans, it seemed to me that it was the Deluxe set's slipcase that was in short supply, not the books themselves. Many people who were in the 'delay' simply dropped the deluxe and bought the books individually, in every case I heard of they recieved the non-slipcased books quickly.
Just for perusal:
This was copied from ENWORLD:
From conference call, specifically addressing games:
Our games and puzzle business was up 12% for the quarter, with our top performer Monopoly up 26%, primarily due to the continued strength of Monopoly Electronic Banking.
We are looking forward to launching the first ever global Monopoly Here & Now The World Edition in August. In addition to Monopoly, a number of our games performed well in the quarter, including Trivial Pursuit, Twister, Operation, and the Game of Life. Our Wizards of the Coast trading card game Duel Masters is doing very well in Japan.
Hasbro's Family Game Night will be returning this Fall, with a promotional program for a number of our board games targeted to Today's families. Family game night will also gain a foothold in the digital arena this Fall, when Electronic Arts launches it's Family Game Night offering, featuring reimagined versions of some of Hasbro's classics, like Connect Four, Battleship, Yahtzee , Boggle, and Sorry.
Not even a MENTION of 4e? This just shows that D&D does not generate NEARLY enough nevenue to be on HASBRO's RADAR.
If this is the case... it would mean NOTHING to hasbro to drop D&D. If they do, they will hold on to the rights, and D&D will be no more. I cannot imagine them SELLING the rights to ANYONE. No matter how well D&D 4e sells, if D&DI crashes, they will drop 4e.
That conference call makes me laugh at the $E references:D
Or maybe it shows that the reception of 4e, contrary to what may on these boards claim, was not very goo.
Glad me and my gaming gorup are going the Pathfinder route. Gleemax sucked and was a bad idea. Glad it's dead. 4e should go the same way I hope. Then Paizo can bu D&d from Hasbro and resurrect Dragon.
Gleemax sucked and was a bad idea.
I'll give you that it sucked (it was ugly, the name was stupid, it was ugly, it had more bugs than a roach motel, it was ugly, it was counter-intuitive to use, oh - and did I mention it was ugly?), but it was a good idea. It was just poorly managed.
In my opinion, of course.
Getting rid of GLeemax does not have anything to do with 4E though IMO.
Now, does that speak to Wotc's future? Maybe, maybe not. The company has taken some major hits over the past few months. The reception for 4e wasn't exactly what they had hoped for and the failure to produce DDI on time has not just a few people cheesed off.
Time will tell.
I eagerly await D&DI - so long as it has minimal fees.
I prefer to put up with the delay, then enjoy a product that looks good and works well when it finally does come out.
By the time it comes out they will probably have to pay people to use it.
By the time it comes out they will probably have to pay people to use it.
Really? In my opinion, it looks like a decent program. Heck, i'd subscribe to it just for the Ezines; the character visualizer is just a bonus. It seems to me you just don't like 4E in general, and you're throwing a hissy fit for any reason you can.
and did I mention it was ugly?)
Yes, but not enough. I was forced to coin the term "Ultrafugly" to fully encompass how truly ugly Gleemax is.
How ugly was it?
It was so ugly that it dropped your charisma 1 point every time you used it.
This gives me an idea for an Off-Topic thread to see how truly ugly people thought Gleemax was.
*****
Gleemax was sooooooo ugly.
How ugly was it?
It was so ugly, even Stevie Wonder complained about the way it looked.
Actually, gleemax isnt ugly.It is visually interesting, with decent color theory, composition, etc.
Its a look.
Not exactly a warm and inviting look. ... More like a getting abducted by aliens and experimented on kinda look.
Now, does that speak to Wotc's future? Maybe, maybe not. The company has taken some major hits over the past few months. The reception for 4e wasn't exactly what they had hoped for and the failure to produce DDI on time has not just a few people cheesed off.
Uh, what? "Not what they had hoped for?" You mean like, say, exceeding their sales expectations by so much there were shortages and they had to run a second run before the game was even officially released?
C'mon folks.
I will say that many think like me.
I don't care if the design is ugly or not, as long it's usefull and workable.
I will say that many think like me.
Well, not only was it ugly. It was also neither useful nor workable.
Well, not only was it ugly. It was also neither useful nor workable.
i disagree... it was a bit too bright for my tastes, but it was workable.
Really? In my opinion, it looks like a decent program. Heck, i'd subscribe to it just for the Ezines; the character visualizer is just a bonus. It seems to me you just don't like 4E in general, and you're throwing a hissy fit for any reason you can.
Well then here is hoping you are not in a line of work that requires you to make decision based on what other people think.
4th, 3rd, 2nd edition; Gleemax was a bad idea badly done.
WotC tried to do something outside of its abilities, and outside of what people wanted, and it bit them in the butt.
People that want MYSpace use it. Who had this idea? Was it something from gamers? Was it some brainstorming session in the corporate office that said we need something new and flashy that is all the buzz online right now and came up with some blogging/social networking site?
Who thought all gamers would want to get along? Have these people not been into a game store and seen the different type of gamers separated by the games?
Serious gamers are interested in their games. Casual gamers are interested in the socializing and already have MYSpace for their socializing and the like.
Either way as I have said before and what has been proven to me is that Gleemax will not work. WotC cannot, nor can any other major gaming compnay, house some site to include other companies products and expect it to work. You have a biased site whose focus will always be on the owning companies products. No matter what other people clain, I am more than sure Reaper, Games Workshop, and other WotC competitors would be likely to jump on board to a site they have no control over and ran by their competitors.
GW has its own website with a lot of things. They no longer have forums because of the same things that have happened recently around here, and the #$^@ hit the fan and the fans didn't like the attitude the company was pulling out of their ***** and slinging at them.
You will not get a "Online home for gamers" from any company that makes games. All you will have is bias. Maybe they can make a home for WotC/HASBRO games where a community of discussion groups and personal opinion outlets can exist...oh wait we already have that with the forums. Seems to be working fine when they are not in a constant state of repair.
It is visually interesting, with decent color theory, composition, etc.
Its a look.
Actually, Gleemax is ugly.
It is visually uninteresting, with poor color theory, composition, etc.
Its a bad look.
In this case, the vision of Gleemax seems to be to form a global virtual community of likeminded gamers (smart people who enjoy relatively complex games). For now, focusing energy and resources on successful products like D&DI and Magic3 seems reasonable.
D&DI seems especially "vision friendly". The virtual D&D table has the potential of linking people all over the world to play D&D, thereby forming global virtual communities of likeminded gamers. Perhaps the vision will emerge and expand naturally from D&DI?
Reinventing the wheel is very rarely a good idea. Hopefully, WotC avoids that mistake going forward when it comes to tools such as the virtual table.
I think they're biggest mistake was attempting to reinvent the wheel. A prime example of that is the blogs. There's lots of existing software out there for blogs. vBulletin - the software that runs the forums - has blogging software that would seamlessly integrate with the forums, as one example. There's open source software that integrates with facebook and other places. And plenty of other options. But rather than installing that and focusing on adding value, they spent a crazy amount of time and money writing their own blogging software - that in the end was riddled with bugs and was counter-intuitive.
Reinventing the wheel is very rarely a good idea. Hopefully, WotC avoids that mistake going forward when it comes to tools such as the virtual table.
QFT.
I think ENWorld, I heard, upgraded to a new version of vBulletin that has all kinds of silly features that people can use. Something about clouds and such as well as maybe blogs. The question is could WotC get by with using open source?
The way they axed e-Tools support, a year before their last 3.5e book was published, made me no longer trust WotC. I stopped being interested in the potential of Gleemax, DDI and the other new stuff at that point.
I think they bit of more then they could chew, and certainly given their poor record on getting software publised and supported (E-Tools, Digital Atlas, D&DO, M:TGOv3), but maybe they were pushed by the Hasbro bean counters, we'll never know. I do know that the execution and communication was poor, especially the cancelation of Dungeon and Dragon (paper version) being a PR nightmare in the way they handled it.
So... Does this mean there will be changes to the boards or site?
I don't understand the relationship Gleemax has with Hasbro/WotC other than they are the ones who host these boards and I guess from the quotes above some on-line gaming.
Yeah, I'm not clear on these points either - someone care to explain?
I can add that since I've seen Gleemax on the Wizards site/forum user-friendliness, overall speed, and technical difficulties have been at an all time high.
Cheers,
Necro
Yeah, I'm not clear on these points either - someone care to explain?
I can add that since I've seen Gleemax on the Wizards site/forum user-friendliness, overall speed, and technical difficulties have been at an all time high.
Cheers,
Necro
Gleemax was WotC's MYSpace/FACEBOOK for gamers.
Gleemax was WotC's MYSpace/FACEBOOK for gamers.
Yeah, except Gleemax is to MySpace as Dwarf Fighter is to Chocolate Chip Cookie.