And you allow the Gay Bashing Thread to exist.
So let me get this straight, discussion of your bone headed draconian horse's ass policy is off limits but insulting Homosexuals is okay? You want offensive? Do you not know how to read?
Go read that thread.
I'm sorry but any cred you had is now shot in the testicles.
If your "defense" is "people were advocating piracy" then you are illiterate because no one was advocating piracy. No one gave specific sites or any instructions as to how to acquire illegal pdfs.
As a matter of fact people were ADVOCATING a business model that your company is not using as a way to DECREASE piracy.
People even gave a solution for you that would prevent other stores from selling pdfs and not giving your little company it's proper cut.
Sell the pdf direclty on wizards.com
I've been civil till this post, because I find this Failure of moderation 101 to be grossly offensive.
I'll loan you a ladder if you need help getting off that high horse.
They just shut down the "gay bashing thread"
I'll loan you a ladder if you need help getting off that high horse.
After how long. Why wasn't it taken out Immediately. That thread shouldn't have lasted more than fifteen minutes. And it shouldn't have just been merely locked it should have been Annihilated faster than you can say Die.
I'm not done yet. When I get on my horse I charge. The sheer stupidity involved gives me a damn right to be on a ****ing high horse.
After how long.
Less than three days. Not being an ORC, I have no idea as to the answers of your other questions.
I am puzzled as to the time difference between Celsius's threads being deleted and the other trolling one lasting marginally longer, but really, the difference isn't that huge, so it could have been a simple oversight or delay.
I'd also be willing to speculate that Wizards has an internal policy to deal swiftly with threads that advocate piracy (yes, the thread in question did). Maybe they don't, but such a policy wouldn't surprise me at all.
I do agree that they should have been more proactive on it, but I also think that they ORCS only react when they hear about a thread/post. They are not looking for things to close/delete.I think it is more upon us as members of these boards to bring these threads to their attention.
In Mr.C's thread there was one poster that was adamant about the wrong thing in the thread (that it was advocating piracy). The reality was that the thread was admonishing WotC about their idiotic choice to not sell .pdfs.
The reality was that the thread was admonishing WotC about their idiotic choice to not sell .pdfs.
The truth hurts and some people "coughs Wizzzzzardsss" just can't handle it when others point it out.
Less than three days. Not being an ORC, I have no idea as to the answers of your other questions.
I am puzzled as to the time difference between Celsius's threads being deleted and the other trolling one lasting marginally longer, but really, the difference isn't that huge, so it could have been a simple oversight or delay.
I'd also be willing to speculate that Wizards has an internal policy to deal swiftly with threads that advocate piracy (yes, the thread in question did). Maybe they don't, but such a policy wouldn't surprise me at all.
No it did not. As a matter of fact most everyone was doing anything but advocating Piracy.
There was one poster that was attempting to Demonize everyone else, by claiming that we were. (When anyone that can read could clearly see we weren't)
It was deleted because it was a legit criticism of a stupid Backwards RIAA type view of things.
I saw a poster give advise on how to pirate on that thread, more than once. The .pdf threads where banned awhile ago do to reoccurring code of conduct violations, and as far as I know, the ban hasn't been lifted. Now as for the ORCs, they follow the policy of the higher ups, so most likely they simply did their jobs. If you really want to complaint send a letter to WotC.
As for the other thread, did you report it? The mods do not go looking for violations of the code of conduct, so they rely on posters to hit the report button when they see a problem.
While the majority were behaving as you claim, information as to how to get a pirated copy and justification for getting pirated copies were both in that thread. As such, assuming someone reported it, I can see that thead being deleted (or more likely, moved to a non-public area to be dealt with on a work-day).
I suspect the big difference between the time of the two threads is that the moderators prefer not to moderate until such time as things are reported, especially on a week end, with the possibility that some reports are weighed more or less than others based on people's previous reports.
And I'm not really sure that the other thread was "gay bashing", although that might have been the intent of the O.P. It was more like watching an episode of All in the Family and everyone laughing at Archie Bunker and his out of touch version of reality.
Just to be clear, one poster was advising how to get copies and another poster was, in fact, advocating piracy. The first was easy to overlook because it wasn't exactly rocket science and everyone pretty much ignored the post.
While the majority were behaving as you claim, information as to how to get a pirated copy and justification for getting pirated copies were both in that thread. As such, assuming someone reported it, I can see that thead being deleted (or more likely, moved to a non-public area to be dealt with on a work-day).
I suspect the big difference between the time of the two threads is that the moderators prefer not to moderate until such time as things are reported, especially on a week end, with the possibility that some reports are weighed more or less than others based on people's previous reports.
And I'm not really sure that the other thread was "gay bashing", although that might have been the intent of the O.P. It was more like watching an episode of All in the Family and everyone laughing at Archie Bunker and his out of touch version of reality.
And the mods could have well deleted those posts, or modded them. Rather than Disappearing the Entire Thread.
And the mods could have well deleted those posts, or modded them. Rather than Disappearing the Entire Thread.
On my day off, I'd rather move the whole thread than edit individual posts. Less work. Less threat of someone just posting it again. Clearer message to everyone involved that the topic is off limits.
There's questions in that thread I would like answers to as well (such as why a study in England is measuring currency in dollars), but I can understand their actions.
And the mods could have well deleted those posts, or modded them. Rather than Disappearing the Entire Thread.
I've seen a few threads locked because of one poster behaving badly, without that poster even being temp banned.
It makes me wounder, what the standard operating proceeder is?
Indeed, on both threads I thought, "This? Again?" I should have trusted my gut instinct when I felt both would end up in yet another crash and burn.
And yes, there was/is a ban on PDF threads, but I felt things had cooled down enough to allow some discussion. But, considering nothing new hasn't been said, and such threads are still with the same issues, I'll go back to closing PDF threads.
For a short while, at least.
I'm sorry guys- I saw both threads but rather than pull a knee jerk reaction let's close them down, I figured we'd see where things went.
Indeed, on both threads I thought, "This? Again?" I should have trusted my gut instinct when I felt both would end up in yet another crash and burn.
And yes, there was/is a ban on PDF threads, but I felt things had cooled down enough to allow some discussion. But, considering nothing new hasn't been said, and such threads are still with the same issues, I'll go back to closing PDF threads.
For a short while, at least.
So to make a long story short the truth just hurts.
The Truth that people can't discuss a topic without violating the Code of Conduct? Yes, yes it does.
Dodgy are we?
The Truth that people can't discuss a topic without violating the Code of Conduct? Yes, yes it does.
The fact that it is even a topic that that violates the CoC is ridiculous. They have not done anyhitng except halt a path of profit.
My bad.
You complain about everything. If a thread gets monitored, you complain about, if it doesn't get monitored, you complain about it. You complain how it gets moderated, if it doens't meet your standards. You demand to know why, and when told why, you complain about it. You demand answers, and then ignore them for your own opinion on what the truth is.
You complain about ever aspect of the game, WoTC, and more.
Makes wonder if what's really the problem is the complainers.
You make this forum your personal dumping ground, making the average person avoid it, which is a shame. These forums should be more used by a wider range of people then just the handful of Fanatics.
And sadly I also think the moderators cater to much to the smallest, but most vocal segment, trying to make them happy.
While we have the right to criticize WoTCs approach to business, ultimately their mistakes are theirs to make. That goes for their decision to not supports pdfs of their materials, regardless of how advantageous it may or may not be, as well as their right to eliminate material from these boards.
What they should realize is that providing and maintaining these boards isn't some favor they're doing out of the kindness of their hearts for those who post here, it's part of the promotion and marketing of their product, and provides support for their product. The very often poor tactics used by moderators reflects on the company as a whole and is akin to the guy mopping the floors in a brick and mortar store telling you to go to Hell when you ask where a certain item might be located. No, it's not his job, but it puts you off shopping there.
There's a code of conduct in place demanding responsibility from posters, but no code requiring responsibility or integrity from moderators.
but no code requiring responsibility or integrity from moderators.
Yes there is. Part of that code is that the company handles employee and volunteer issues offline. None of us will ever learn the outcome of a grievance against one of the Mods or Employees.
Got a problem with a moderator's ruling? Report it. Send a PM to a WotC_XXX staff member if you feel it is important. Contact customer service directly if you feel that route is important. But once you report it, let it be. It is no longer your issue, and the outcome *can't* be shared with you.
I never said I should be privy to their disciplinary process. What I said was poor behavior from their employees is more destructive than poor behavior from community members.
The adage in retail is "It takes a year to gain a customer, it takes a minute to lose one."
That's why the customer is always right.
That's why the customer is always right.
I was determined to not post in this thread as I learned years go that there is no winning in the anti-moderator threads. Then I saw this. The customer is not always right, the customer just usually gets their way because the business would rather fold than lose the sale. There's a big difference. (It's the same difference between "What the DM says goes" and "The DM is always right.")
There's a code of conduct in place demanding responsibility from posters, but no code requiring responsibility or integrity from moderators.
Actually, there is. Should you be unhappy with the decision made by an ORC, you can always complain to CS about your treatment. The decision will be looked at by people higher up in the ORC hierarchy to determine if the decision falls within the bounds as determined by the training that they have received, and the guidelines that are set out for them to do their job. The last information that I heard about the ORC training program was that it took months to go through.
Should an ORC be found to be not making decisions that are within what is expected of them, they could end up getting fired.
That's why the customer is always right.
I was determined to not post in this thread as I learned years go that there is no winning in the anti-moderator threads. Then I saw this. The customer is not always right, the customer just usually gets their way because the business would rather fold than lose the sale. There's a big difference. (It's the same difference between "What the DM says goes" and "The DM is always right.")
First of all, my position isn't anti-moderator. I've already said WoTC has the right to do what they want with their boards.
And thanks for stating the obvious about the customer always being right. I guess now I don't have to deconstruct the adage, and you've reinforced the point I made.
And I've already made my postion regarding filing complaints about moderators. Though I would say additionally, if the moderators are governed as haphazardly as the moderators govern us, why should I bother? As I've said, these people represent the company they work for, and they create the persona of that company.
I made no suggestions on what people should do. You could have just as easily assumed I was suggesting that people stop being so negative.
You know, the people that live on these forums, posting all day long just about every day, you really make the forums unattractive.
The thing is, this starting point struck a chord with me. I do surf during a good portion of the day because being at home with a small child my only "adult breaks" are forums. They're often short breaks and a single reply may happen an hour after I read the post, but being told that I'm one of the people making this place unattractive just by being here hasn't made my day any better.
I don't know if I'm negative or not but you've made it clear that you find the people who are frequently on the forums make the place unattractive. I'm not sure what I've done to you for you to react that way, but it's certainly given me something to think about.
It isn't that I think I'm negative. It's that I know I'm here a lot. And you've specifically said that's a behavior that makes these forums unattractive.
I made no suggestions on what people should do. You could have just as easily assumed I was suggesting that people stop being so negative.You know, the people that live on these forums, posting all day long just about every day, you really make the forums unattractive.
The thing is, this starting point struck a chord with me. I do surf during a good portion of the day because being at home with a small child my only "adult breaks" are forums. They're often short breaks and a single reply may happen an hour after I read the post, but being told that I'm one of the people making this place unattractive just by being here hasn't made my day any better.
I don't know if I'm negative or not but you've made it clear that you find the people who are frequently on the forums make the place unattractive. I'm not sure what I've done to you for you to react that way, but it's certainly given me something to think about.
It isn't that I think I'm negative. It's that I know I'm here a lot. And you've specifically said that's a behavior that makes these forums unattractive.
I too am one of the people who spend a good chunk of time per day on here. That said I in no way felt that Dane was talking directly about me in his post. While he just says "the people who live on these forums..." it's pretty clear he's talking about certain posters who have certain attitudes in their posts. I've seen a few (and no I'm not naming any names, even if someone PMs me and asks) who I feel have made this place less friendly than it could be but who haven't technically violated the CoC.
EDIT: As a note, if anyone ever feels that I'm being one of those "less than friendly" posters, PM me and call me on it please. I can't fix it if I don't know about it after all.
Dane is right: this place is pretty toxic. I'm not sure if I blame "the people that live on these forums" per se but there does seem to be a certain contingent of the posting population here that has a tendency to wail and gnash their teeth over every little thing.
It gets old fast.
I certainly found it ironic that he came to complain about people that complain. Thus the pot/kettle comment.
He not only replied here in the thread, but was also perterved enough to PM me a virtually same style response.
I don't try and speak with "an attitude" in my posts, but there are some people that will certainly get one no matter their topic and there are some that I feel have an attitude in their own posts and I will respond in kind..
Because as Dane said:
"How people first react is a good indication of what's going on, in themselves."
and I see how he first reacted.
How about I don't and just spend less on WoTCs products, or not promote their products by discussing them here or elsewhere?
Go for it.
What I said was poor behavior from their employees is more destructive than poor behavior from community members.
I quoted what you said. And responded to what you said. I'll even quote you again:
Mar 15, 2010 -- 7:45PM, Foulspawn wrote:
but no code requiring responsibility or integrity from moderators.
However, please accept my apology. I thought you were simply unaware that there *is* a code requiring responsibility and integrity from moderators, and answered to dispel this ignorance.
Folks, some people whom I respect are getting testy with each other on this thread. (Some people whom I don't respect are too, but I don't relly care about them. Their testiness is consistent and inherent, and not simply a result of getting sucked into the wrong conversation.)
For the ones I respect, please step back and take a break before you become the monsters against which you are fighting. I've been there, done that, and it ain't pretty.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, on-topic, and refrain from personal attacks and flaming, these are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg... . You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
************
Please return discussion to the topic of the thread.
<- not sarcasm, honest approval.Webster allowed the .pdf thread to stay open as he thought that maybe, just maybe, enough time had passed for people to discuss it without it being dragged into CoC-violating territory. Obviously, he was wrong, as he mentioned up-thread.
(Note, I am not an ORC, nor have I ever been a part of WotC CS. The above assumptions on the SOPs for WotC are just that, guesses on my part.)
1) The thread wasn't closed, it went away, and in my opinion it went away suddenly. Previous pdf threads were simply closed with an explanation and no indication that more serious measures needed to be taken. It can be said that it looked like it was time for less-serious measures to be taken, not more serious measures. My hope was that explanations would be forthcoming in that forum. That has not happened.
2) A second thread in that section of the forum has a recent post about someone creating a pdf of the PHB3 and giving that pdf away. That post has been ignored. It may be that it was never noticed or reported but...
3) The person who claimed to have done #1, within 10 minutes after that claim, proceeded to get into a discussion about the TOS with the very person who wrote the post in #2 in the same thread the pdf post was written.
The core of my concern is the above inconsistancy. At a time where it might be claimed a less serious approach was being tried, a more serious approach was suddenly and without warning taken and yet no futher actions were taken. No public warnings or explanations were given.
In this thread we may not know exactly was removed, but we know things were removed and we know who removed them and we can ask them what or why if we have a concern (they may not say at least we can ask) and we can even report them if we disagree with their actions. That's an incredible amount of customer power for a public forum and I applaud it. As a result, I approve of what happened in this thread.
I don't approve of entire community* threads being "disappeared", without warning, without explanation, without anything, not when I'm under the impression that we're told when such things happen and we're told who did them. One makes me very comfortable to be here. The other does not.
---------
*If someone just posts a link to a malware page and that's the whole thread then, yes, just disappear the dang thing...
Curious, which part of the CoC is it stated that PMs may not be posted?
That's not a violation of the CoC. The Code of Conduct has the following provisions relevant to private messages:
"All community and social networking aspects of the Site are subject to the Code of Conduct"
Dane may be referencing the following provision:
"3. Do not harass, bully, threaten, harm or cause discomfort for other persons, including any other members. For example:
* * *
However, please accept my apology. I thought you were simply unaware that there *is* a code requiring responsibility and integrity from moderators, and answered to dispel this ignorance. I was not aware that your intent was simply to gripe and complain. Such misinterpretation of your intentions will not happen again.
Feel free to post the code of conduct governing moderators and ORCs please.
I’ve removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
With threads on .pdfs, experience in the past showed that, no matter how well-intentioned the OP, or the majority of the posters in the thread, there would alsays be people who would drag the thread down into a flamewar.
This makes me think of the Dysfunction demotivators poster. (Not you, Mudbunny. WotC corporate, and the apparent inability to realize they made a mistake. Or if they didn't make a mistake (er, they did) the unwillingness to communicate concrete reasons why it was not.)
With threads on .pdfs, experience in the past showed that, no matter how well-intentioned the OP, or the majority of the posters in the thread, there would alsays be people who would drag the thread down into a flamewar.
This makes me think of the Dysfunction demotivators poster. (Not you, Mudbunny. WotC corporate, and the apparent inability to realize they made a mistake. Or if they didn't make a mistake (er, they did) the unwillingness to communicate concrete reasons why it was not.)
It is entirely possible that the reason that WotC hasn't said anything about the removal of the pdfs is that they may be in the middle of legal proceedings and thus, legally not allowed to make comments. (Note, that is simply speculation, and not based on anything I have heard).
I do know that, according the to the latest interview in The Escapist, WotC is actively looking at different ways to provide electronic versions to customers. How near/close they are to that is, however, unknown. Based on WotC behaviour vis-a-vis electronic products (DDI), I suspect that we will hear nothing until they are almost ready to push it live.
It is entirely possible that the reason that WotC hasn't said anything [...]
The point of my comment was that if everyone is telling you you're wrong.. perhaps you're wrong. There is a chance that everyone is wrong... but the chance is much much greater that you are. (To quote Carl Sagan: "they also laughed at Bozo the Clown")
I do know that, according the to the latest interview in The Escapist, WotC is actively looking at different ways to provide electronic versions to customers. How near/close they are to that is, however, unknown. Based on WotC behaviour vis-a-vis electronic products (DDI), I suspect that we will hear nothing until they are almost ready to push it live.
If they are trying to find a 100% full proof way then they will be looking for years to come.
Curious, which part of the CoC is it stated that PMs may not be posted?
That's not a violation of the CoC. The Code of Conduct has the following provisions relevant to private messages:
"All community and social networking aspects of the Site are subject to the Code of Conduct"
Dane may be referencing the following provision:
"3. Do not harass, bully, threaten, harm or cause discomfort for other persons, including any other members. For example:* * *
Okay, I'll say this up front: I didn't read the two threads that lead to the creation of this one. I typically stick to the Striker, Campaign, and Eberron forums, and stay away from stuff that could lead to flaming. I try to say my piece and be done with it.
However, I do occassionally think moderation on this site is a bit backwards at times. If you're asking for examples, don't 'cause it doesn't occur often enough for me to really care. I think my irritation towards stems more from my aversion to authority, particularly from some of the business practices by WotC, such as their strict enforcement of their policies.
I can say, personally, that a few of my documents got knocked off from Scribd because I used an image from their company (Marrow-Gnawer for one my animal/human hybrid, and a kobold pic from a homebrew doc I made that converted bugbears, goblins, gnolls, and kobolds to PC status). I thought it was pretty stupid to get a bug up their **** over an image because:
1) I wasn't making money off my documents (though I'd like to think my material is good enough to earn money)
2) I said in the document the images were not of my making, and
3) I have a document of WoW races I converted to 4E (except worgens and goblins 
), and an image of Goh the Crow (from the game Shinobido) for my ninja class, and neither Blizzard (WoW) nor Acquire Entertainment (Shinobido) have sent Scribd a notice saying I've done anything wrong.
In the end, whether or not WotC wishes to have this level of enforcement is their decision, and it's not like I can't put my stuff back up again, anyways. So really, no harm, no foul.
However, I think this stringent outlook is VERY unwise on their part. Their policy on material (and by extension, the issue with electronic documents) will more than likely do more harm than good later on because they are pretty much strangling everyone under rules and codes, and if there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's this:
The more rules you make, the more rules they'll break.
So, Micha, did they shoot themselves with a Buck Shot, an Elephant Gun or something bigger?
I'll say the buckshot. Elephant Gun would be unlifting Dead Fetus Boy's ban and apologizing publically to him that it was wrong to ban him for his attrocious behavior.
I also suspect the homophobic flamebait thread was harder to judge early on. It could have been an honest question, even through the "flamboyant" period, by someone who simply didn't have the experience. It wasn't until later that the O.P jumped the shark and then it was shut down. I simply don't think it's appropriate to blame the moderators for giving someone the benefit of the doubt, and that's assuming the thread was even reported in the early stages.
The point of my comment was that if everyone is telling you you're wrong.. perhaps you're wrong.
The point that is overlooked is that "every one" is utterly convinced that "everyone" shares their own opinion on a matter.
Seriously, you delete Celsius's threads. Reasonable, discussion.
And you allow the Gay Bashing Thread to exist.
So let me get this straight, discussion of your bone headed draconian horse's ass policy is off limits but insulting Homosexuals is okay? You want offensive? Do you not know how to read?
Go read that thread.
I'm sorry but any cred you had is now shot in the testicles.
If your "defense" is "people were advocating piracy" then you are illiterate because no one was advocating piracy. No one gave specific sites or any instructions as to how to acquire illegal pdfs.
As a matter of fact people were ADVOCATING a business model that your company is not using as a way to DECREASE piracy.
People even gave a solution for you that would prevent other stores from selling pdfs and not giving your little company it's proper cut.
Sell the pdf direclty on wizards.com
I've been civil till this post, because I find this Failure of moderation 101 to be grossly offensive.
I wondered where that thread went to (the oh so horrible thread advocating piracy).
I am unaware of the gay bashing thread mentioned. But I will say thins much, while I dopn't think it is a comment directed at mods, I most certainly DID stop attending the Astrid's Worthless parlour for reasons I think I just made clear by how I mentioned it. The posts in there are NEVER in my view any asset to a commercial operation's forums.
I've been on other forums where piracy is dicusssed though. it's a logical foul to show the how and the where, but the topic is not something any sane company wants to just pretend is not important.
There might be 5 people on the net that don't download things they are not entitled to according to some manner of law in some nation. But the reality is the business models are even more worthless than the laws meant to safeguard the worthless business models.
Every last book for 4th edition is downloadable. And water is wet by the way.
I still buy my books, and it's not because it's against the law to download them.
I ONLY buy them, because Amazon's business model agrees with me.
Eberron Campaign Guide. On the back suggested retail 39.93 US 49.00 Can (plus tax your realise) and 30.00 Canadian with free shipping from Amazon. Gee I wonder where I bought my copy eh.
No I am NOT so devoted to retailers I will pay double just so I can see them smile and help them pay their rent.
I don't know how Amazon is able to sell so cheap, and I don't care. I don't know what impact Amazon sales have on Wizards, and I again, don't care.
And I also use downloaded scans of all my books on my laptop, because it beats beating up MY copy on top of my scanner. And I don't care if Wizards doesn't like that either.
They COULD have sold me the scanned copy. They chose not too. Their choice.
And no where have I told anyone where I found the scanned copy.
But I think even a moron knows it involved the use of Google.
Some forums simply can't deal with the real world.
"Folks, some people whom I respect are getting testy with each other on this thread. (Some people whom I don't respect are too, but I don't relly care about them. Their testiness is consistent and inherent, and not simply a result of getting sucked into the wrong conversation.)"
I am not sure which side of this statement I am on. This is not a bait. I was curious when it was written, but that was removed when the ORC did some cleaning.
It is still has a connection to the real world.
It does. But that connection is tangential. Our understanding of real world physics, for example, is what allows us to recognize what is magical in the game. But our understanding of real world politics, religion, sexual orientation, and historical events are rarely relevant. And when they are relevant, it is usually in a very specific context that loses its relevance by the second or third post someone might start on the subject.
"Folks, some people whom I respect are getting testy with each other on this thread. (Some people whom I don't respect are too, but I don't relly care about them. Their testiness is consistent and inherent, and not simply a result of getting sucked into the wrong conversation.)"
I am not sure which side of this statement I am on. This is not a bait. I was curious when it was written, but that was removed when the ORC did some cleaning.
I do not consider it to be bait. I remember when writing it. I numbered you among those whom I respect who were getting testy.
It is still has a connection to the real world.
It does. But that connection is tangential. Our understanding of real world physics, for example, is what allows us to recognize what is magical in the game. But our understanding of real world politics, religion, sexual orientation, and historical events are rarely relevant. And when they are relevant, it is usually in a very specific context that loses its relevance by the second or third post someone might start on the subject.
I have nothing to add...just gonna leave it all alone at this point.
"Folks, some people whom I respect are getting testy with each other on this thread. (Some people whom I don't respect are too, but I don't relly care about them. Their testiness is consistent and inherent, and not simply a result of getting sucked into the wrong conversation.)"
I am not sure which side of this statement I am on. This is not a bait. I was curious when it was written, but that was removed when the ORC did some cleaning.
I do not consider it to be bait. I remember when writing it. I numbered you among those whom I respect who were getting testy.
I was curious because I have been coming to these boards since the inception of 4e (never was here during the 3e days) And I have also always respected what you say and although I would not have held it against you, I can be fairly cantankerous, but I am very happy to gain the praise you have just given me. Thanks.
Some folks simply can't leave the real world in the real world when they're visiting a fantasy roleplaying game message board.
I am posting under the assumption I might not be responding to a quoted comment with the correct context here.
But when I come to these forums, I'm sitting in the real world. When I play my rolegames I remain in the real world then too. I am simply not capable of leaving the real world.
Problems only occur when people actually DO leave the real world for their fantasy world(s).
Wizards is a real world company, and as such I expect them to also always reflect that reality. When I buy their wares, I am using real money. I expect real maturity from anyone in a position to represent them on a real forum discussing real issues with real people. No, I do NOT need to role a d20 on my diplomacy skill.
I tend to avoid people unable to participate in online dialogue as a real person in person.
If I want phoney dialogue, with artificial people, well that's best left for when I am running my games. And if I have a problem with what is said, I can always kill them
But when I come to these forums, I'm sitting in the real world. When I play my rolegames I remain in the real world then too. I am simply not capable of leaving the real world.
When I attend my child's kindertgarten play, I am a real person sitting in a real cafeteria watching real kids performing in a play.Despite all those real world things, I don't talk about real world politics, real world sexual orientations, or real world religion while attending that play.
The D&D Forums are for D&D gamers about D&D. There are plenty of D&D-context controversial topics to discuss. The more we keep our conversations to D&D - even the controversial ones -- the more pleasant it is to come here.
Micha's original post *topic* was legitimate. It was about the inconsistancy of moderation rules. But he was barking up the wrong tree. He cried foul because WotC closed the PDF thread. He should have simply cried foul on the homosexuality thread staying open as long as it did.
That, for the most part that PDF thread was a reasonable discussion and got Disappeared, while the other thread stayed open I found particularly offensive.
(Which they didn't Disappear the other thread, they simply locked it)
I was more crying foul over the hypocrisy of the one thread being Vanished (which was considerably less offensive), while the other remained open
This is my problem with your opening post.
If your concern really was for the lack of moderation of the defamatory thread, that got lost in your ire over the inconsistency in moderation.
In my opinion, you got way too mad at the excusable error (lack of consistency in moderation) and showed not nearly enough ire toward the inexcusable error (the continued acceptance of the gay stereotype thread). It implies that you would have had no problem at all with the gay-bashing thread if only the moderators has left the PDF thread untouched.
No I wouldn't have been fine with it honestly. Actually I was in the process of submitting a vcl request in another tab about the anti gay thread when I was also posting in the pdf thread. I hit submit post only to find the thread had Disappeared.
I saw the anti gay thread still open. Which pretty much resulted in the creation of this thread.
The sheer inconsistency really ticked me off. (Especially after losing a long thought out post)
Is there a certain number of reports that need to accumulate before they will actually shut it down?
Was my report the straw that broke the camels back?
To me it seems that they will jump on some threads like white on rice, while others that are really just full of nasty can continue on for days.
I have also seen a certain poster take pot shots at me and even when I reported it the poster's posts were still there while mine were removed or chopped up.
I have seen this a few times...there is where I see too much inconsistency. I don't mind some difference of opinion, even if it can get aggressive sometimes. I know most of the time 2 posters having a difference in one thread are one the same side in another, but this poster would literally just take a shot at me and then not post again unless it was to attack me. I started to get tired of it and thus started to troll him/her/it back.
Not the most mature, but sometimes it just seemed that I needed to take it in my own hands.
No I wouldn't have been fine with it honestly.
This makes me realize (for the millionth time, of course) the limitations of message Boards. All we can truly know of any given post is the words it contains. Context, timing, setting, lead-in, facial expression, body language, and tone of voice are all absent. Because of this, I based my entire reply on what I read, acocmpanied by all of the context, timing, setting, lead-in, facial expression, body language, and tone of voice that I assume.
Micha, I am sorry for assuming the worst rather than the best in you.
This makes me realize (for the millionth time, of course) the limitations of message Boards. All we can truly know of any given post is the words it contains. Context, timing, setting, lead-in, facial expression, body language, and tone of voice are all absent. Because of this, I based my entire reply on what I read, acocmpanied by all of the context, timing, setting, lead-in, facial expression, body language, and tone of voice that I assume.
Micha, I am sorry for assuming the worst rather than the best in you.
It's alright. Apology accepted
message boards suck for conveying thoughts, because we lack the ability to convey body language or tone. Two things which are honestly more important than the words used. I do have to wonder what exactly does it take to get threads locked or posts deleted. It seems so damn arbitrary of what they close, Disappear, or edit.
The D&D Forums are for D&D gamers about D&D. There are plenty of D&D-context controversial topics to discuss. The more we keep our conversations to D&D - even the controversial ones -- the more pleasant it is to come here."
I can relate.
But they DO have a fairly nicely sorted out forum category structure around here.
I am not gay, but have zero problems with them. I would find gay bashing as acceptable as the bashing of ANY group. Worthy of immediate closing and also possible elimination. And even potential banning.
I actually know of only one internet forum where breaking the not personal attacks rule actually results in banning. And it's not this one.
I come here not for the D&D believe it or not, but because we all play D&D.
Yes, that might sound like an odd thing, but, I can go anywhere and discuss D&D, I came here because I knew I would find more people more willing to talk about it more aggressively.
I have found religion and politics is a bad idea on any forum. Digital rights is neither, and actually matters to the forum's owners business model. But refusing to accept that it is important to the customer base how it is dealt with is not overly bright.
I for instance categorically will not buy some software based on some of the DRM choices made.
Maybe the company needs to hear some opinions.
I'm happy to leave all the overtly sexual content dialogue in Astrid's Worthless Parlour. I won't miss it, and it keeps it out of the way of people that shouldn't see it. Maybe it should be rendered a hidden invite only sub forum. I have seen that approach with religion and politics. Keeps the nice sections nicer.
We can still have problems with strictly D&D issues though. In fact the OPs thread is about one.
The gay bashing example used was only included to illustrate bias. Clearly gay bashing doesn't rate as an offense as high as pushing the company's buttons on pdf issues. And most forget this, Wizards doesn't 'own' D&D, Hasbro does. And I have knowledge of Hasbro from other commercial operations Hasbro owns. This is classic Hasbro behaviour.
Pleasant? heheh, no, you can find hostile all by just saying 4th sucks
You can find hostile all by saying such and such race/class/book/edition sucks.
It's the same as saying Sealion was a lost cause on a history forum.
Or power tools are for the ill trained on a woodworking forum.
I saw both threads but rather than pull a knee jerk reaction let's close them down, I figured we'd see where things went.
Too bad nobody else can see where things went in order to judge for themselves, huh?
I should have trusted my gut instinct when I felt both would end up in yet another crash and burn.
Here we see the spectacular advantage to being able to delete history; once you do, you're free to stat rewriting it. The fact of the matter is that the thread was amazingly civil and productive and actually had me giving some ground to WotC's possible rationale for its policies, but nobody will ever see that. All they'll see is your mendacious suggestion that it 'crashed and burned'.
Sometimes you manage to come across as all right, Web, and sometimes you can be a real suit.
VCLs can only lock threads. We cannot delete them. Deleting threads is an action that is solely within the realm of actions that ORCs can do.