After reading oodles of board responses I am sort of tired of the "shut up and go play some other game" response people have when you either prove that 4E fails in some way, opine that 4E is not better than some other edition, or that 4E somehow does not meet the specs of competing with another game system.
I've even seen whole groups devoted to ganging up on people just to drown out their opinions, or to prove that 4e is the greatest thing since ever. When someone expresses a valid, whether true or not, opinion about how 4e rates in one aspect it's sort of disheartening to see people maltreat those people and throw them the old "no girls allowed in the playhouse speech" replace girls with people disgruntled by 4e. I've noticed recently that I see the same 4 or 5 people pound down on someone who states anything suggesting that 4e could somehow be flawed.
Let them speak their piece, and yes let them speak their piece over and over again. The idea of these forums is such that everyone joins for the same purpose, to enjoy a pastime, to speak about and understand the passtime better, and to make the passtime better through the next editions the next few years. The reason someone makes a statement like "this part is not as good as that part" is to tell other people that they see problems, to discuss with people how to correct these problems or in the future excise these problems, or maybe to discuss- sometimes rationally sometimes irrationally -the fundamentals of what makes people come back to the game each consecutive edition. By speaking their mind again and again they are making sure they get their voices heard too the next time Wizards decides to make changes in the game we all love, or at least feel passionate about.
Sure maybe someone is off their rocker and we can all recognize it but maybe there is something to the idea that this particular edition is not all it was meant to be. I mean there were the same complaints about 3e and they fixed some of those complaints turning it into 3.5. I realize sometimes people are just moaning to complain, but sometimes their ideas are valid and could really impact the future of the game if people weren't too busy flaming them, trouncing them, or bouncing them. A couple of times this week especially I have seen people make valid points about the current edition, and the people who tell them to essentially shut up are the same people making the same valid complaints about the previous edition. That type of irony is saddening because it means that there is a strong chance that the people who do like this game, are playing it, but want to see something better may not be heard over the cascade of voices of those who see any opposition to 4e as a threat to what?...their manhood?
Anyways just my two cents
Sure maybe someone is off their rocker and we can all recognize it but maybe there is something to the idea that this particular edition is not all it was meant to be. I mean there were the same complaints about 3e and they fixed some of those complaints turning it into 3.5. I realize sometimes people are just moaning to complain, but sometimes their ideas are valid and could really impact the future of the game if people weren't too busy flaming them, trouncing them, or bouncing them. A couple of times this week especially I have seen people make valid points about the current edition, and the people who tell them to essentially shut up are the same people making the same valid complaints about the previous edition. That type of irony is saddening because it means that there is a strong chance that the people who do like this game, are playing it, but want to see something better may not be heard over the cascade of voices of those who see any opposition to 4e as a threat to what?...their manhood?
A few thoughts...
(1) Some people will argue against complainers precisely because these people like most of the changes in 4e. You shouldn't interpret that as dishonest or irrational. If, for example, someone says, "4e sucks because Save-or-Die spells are gone!" I'm going to say (and I won't be alone) that this absence is a good thing, not a stupid oversight or an attempt to "idiot-proof" the game. You may agree or disagree, of course, but don't think your definition of "better" is universal. It may seem incredible to you, but there are people who have played D&D for decades who think the latest version is just right.
(2) Some people are picking at any little thing because they want, for whatever reason, to "prove" that 4e was created by evil men who are out to destroy D&D. I agree with you that no one should respond to them, but possibly for different reasons than you have.
(3) Some people really are just trolls and don't care what they are fighting about, as long as they get to fight. Again, they should be ignored rather than answered, so I agree that attempts to refute trolling are foolish.
If you look in the right places, however, you will see plenty of people who aren't in love with 4e who have the respect of others here. I doubt you need a hint, but they're the guys who post in coherent English without using all caps and shouting "Fail!" at anyone who disagrees with them. They don't babble about MMOs or try to prove their points with imaginary majorities (e.g. "It's a matter of public record that all serious gamers have pooped on their 4e books," and so on). When you look at the people who don't get treated well, there isn't a lot of mystery to it. The only unfortunate thing is that these posters continue to get replied to in any way.
It becomes obvious to me after just a few lines that the disappointed person and I don't enjoy the same things. They complain that wizards should have done something one way or that what they did was super terrible. I realize that if Wizards listened to them and they had their way, I would have less fun. Simple as that.
I'm not going to say that my fun is better and should be pandered to by WotC, but this iteration of the game seems to have been made just for people like me. I enjoy it immensely.
Sometimes I jump in because I genuinely disagree that what they say is broken is broken, but more often I don't enjoy the negativity and aura of frustration that the haters bring to the boards. I know it's kind of selfish, but I figure if somebody just wants to dump and vent all over the place, they can take the same.
A short list of general problems with forum discussions:
- Misreading a post
- Not even reading a post
- Not following a discussion and then jumping in with a statement solely focused at the first post, usually repeating what has been said before
- Nitpicking over a single point or even over the choice of words
- Several partial discussions happen in a thread at once, some on the verge to sail into off-topic-waters.
- and so on...
I didn't mention trolls here because they're just obnoxious idiots*.
However, the main problem I 've encountered in many a discussion here is that many posters claim to have an unbiased view on the subject at hand, but once somebody brings up points to the contrary, they can bet on being labeled as "uninformed" or "fanboy" (or if things are civil "something-short-of- a-fanboy-but-you-know-what-I-mean").
This also is the reason why I chimed out of the post-edition-wars-threads which tried to "civilly" discuss matters (e.g. the threads started by Zaardnar), because this attitude even pertained in such threads, coming from both sides or in some instances mainly from the "informed" 3.5-reclivist-crowd.
In short, my dear OP, this "harping" comes from both sides of the argument. Thus, I rather you don't complain about the attitude of the people prefering 4e (i.e. "go play another game") while leaving out the 3.5 crowd's attitude (i.e. calling all 4e people fanbois) out of the equation. But then this whole topic is a case in point how subjective one can perceive an internet discussion.
Cheers!
Captn M.
*On a sidenote: some trolls know how to spell, which apparently prompts others to take them serious, please don't fall for it
If i came in here and started complaining about how 4e lacked [Insert Features from GURPS] and thus sucked, i'd fully expect people to tell me to stop being an idiot and go play GURPS instead.
It's like somone pulling out a Chess board, playing Chess, and then complaining it's not like Risk.
Most of the "get stuffed" comments thrown around here come up because someone will start spewing mindless hate. There's actually quite a few "Antis" running around that have respect from the "4vengers" and "4fanbois" (which is another thing it really really does not help your case at all to say things like "It's for fanbois, and mindless gamers!" Unless of course getting told to go crawl back in your hole and die is something you're aiming to accomplish)
The majority of us here are here because we enjoy it. If for every aspect that we like there has to be an equal amount of people that hate it, that's just stupid.
I can't stand this, "I wan't free speech, but you can't have it". Or "I demand equal time of complaining as praise".
The reason such posts get overwhelmed is because they are in the minority.
A few thoughts...
(1) Some people will argue against complainers precisely because these people like most of the changes in 4e. You shouldn't interpret that as dishonest or irrational. If, for example, someone says, "4e sucks because Save-or-Die spells are gone!" I'm going to say (and I won't be alone) that this absence is a good thing, not a stupid oversight or an attempt to "idiot-proof" the game. You may agree or disagree, of course, but don't think your definition of "better" is universal. It may seem incredible to you, but there are people who have played D&D for decades who think the latest version is just right.
(2) Some people are picking at any little thing because they want, for whatever reason, to "prove" that 4e was created by evil men who are out to destroy D&D. I agree with you that no one should respond to them, but possibly for different reasons than you have.
(3) Some people really are just trolls and don't care what they are fighting about, as long as they get to fight. Again, they should be ignored rather than answered, so I agree that attempts to refute trolling are foolish.
(4) Some of us(like me) like a lot of what 4ed has done, but also dislike a lot of what 4ed has done. So, like me, they debate here in an effort to A) see if another explanation might help them see where the specific problem area being discussed actually makese sense. B) See if someone can help come up with a good, easy change to the system to replace that problem area.
i am getting tired of these posts saying we are not allowed to say we like 4E on the 4E boards..
And I'm getting sick and tired of being told I can't discuss 4e on the 4e boards becuase I'm not a WotC psychophant.
You bash, and then praise Pathfinder. That's how alot of your posting history goes. Coming in with attack mode on is not conducive to discussion.
Except I've not actually seen you discuss much of anything other than "D&D is a joke" aside from maybe two threads.
You bash, and then praise Pathfinder. That's how alot of your posting history goes. Coming in with attack mode on is not conducive to discussion.
And he used to have his sig state the reverse for anti-4e;
"If 4e is as bad as we're told it is, then why does it have to be constantly attacked? Wouldn't as system that is as bad as 4e is fall on it's own merits?"
I don't know why he's decided to end that stance.
At least there are people on both sides of the "edition wars" that are willing to discuss things with each other. I go to another board, where the majority of people who dislike 4e are either trolls are just too stupid to actually articulate a logical point (seriously, these guys are much worse than some of the worst people here on either side), which causes the board to come off as one-sided and filled to the brim with vitriol. The few posters at that board who do dislike 4e and are constructive about it rarely post, which is sad.
And I'm getting sick and tired of being told I can't discuss 4e on the 4e boards becuase I'm not a WotC psychophant.
Remember children, saying you like 4E on the 4E forums or disagreeing with those who dislike it makes you a "WotC psychophant". It can't just be that you like the game, you have to worship at the feet of the people who make the game. *Cough cough*"Church of Awesomeness"*Cough cough*
That's one of the problems here. People are allowed to dislike 4E on these forums. But then those same people who expect to have their opinions respected go around calling people with an oppossed veiw "fanboys".
It's an issue of respect. Give it, you'll get it. Many of those on the forums who dislike 4E do nothing but cause disruption and spew random bile because they hate the game so much. That is not acceptable. There are also people on these forums who like 4E but still cause disruption. Also not acceptable.
Placing the blame on one "side" is dishonest. There are troublemakers on both sides (like me when I'm on one of my Rage-Benders). The best thing we as forumites can do is respect others opinions, while at the same time remembering where you are. This is the D&D 4E forums. It is for reasoned discussion of 4E. It is not your personal rant area, it isn't a place to wave your e-p33n around. If you dislike 4E, you should also be aware that, although this seems shocking, people on these forums like 4E and will disagree with you. It's a fact of the boards.
You know, even though I rarely agree with him, I like Maxperson a lot because he adds to the discussion and can be constructive. There are a lot of people on either side who post a bunch of unsubstantiated crap simply to stir up problems, and it causes a lot of tension.
Thanks
And he used to have his sig state the reverse for anti-4e;
"If 4e is as bad as we're told it is, then why does it have to be constantly attacked? Wouldn't as system that is as bad as 4e is fall on it's own merits?"
I don't know why he's decided to end that stance.
It's still there, actually it goes:
I also a question for all the haters out there. Why do you care if people like 4e or not? If the system is as bad as you say it is, surely it will fail within a year or two, right?
While we're on the topic of my sig, I also have this in there:
I do have one question for all the 4vengers out there: If 4e is as good as we're told it is, then why does it have to be constantly defended? Wouldn't as system that is as good as 4e is be able to stand on it's own merits?
My stance hasn't really changed, I just happen to prefer pathfinder to 4e. That doesn't mean i don't play 4e (I'm DMing a 4e game) or that I don't want to discuss it. However, that doesn't mean I blindly love 4e and sing its praises while deluding myself into thinking it is the perfect system, and D&D's messiah, or whatever crap posters like micha try to sell it as. the Op is right, 4e's fans are all or nothing. Either you think that 4e is prefect in everyway, or your some kind of h4ter that needs to be stoned for haracy. I'm one of those posters who plays 4e, and enjoys it, as well as wanting to to discuss it, and feels it is incomplete and flawed in many ways.
If I thought it was the perfect system I'd hardly be looking into other games to play now would I? (nothing against fourth, nor is it that I dislike fourth. I just would like a little more variety in rpgs that are played at my tables as in more systems not that fourth doesn't have variety in it. A d20 is a d20 system after all.) D&D version 4th edition is easily the best rpg I've played for Heroic Fantasy, (with other genres falling into it as sub categories). It is not however the Be All End All of Pen and Paper. (No system will ever claim that right. Try as paizo and white wolf might to think and claim otherwise)
Thing is Tpk even your Dm post you came off like you were being *forced* to play something you *hated*.
There's things in fourth edition I don't like. Those things are pretty much never brought up in a h4ter post. (nor any that you have either mr "neutral") However I'm not about to go discussing my dislikes for the game, until such a time comes that I have sufficient house rules to address those things. In other words I would much rather spend time actually you know *Gasp* doing something about my problems than saying "D&D=joke, mindless=wow, etc,"
Or griping without offering solutions to whatever it is I have problems with.
It's still there, actually it goes:
As of right now, this is what your signature has, in full. (I don't limit people's sigs, I like reading them):
RIP Gary Gygax ....and thank you for many, many years of the best game I have ever known
I do have one question for all the 4vengers out there: If 4e is as good as we're told it is, then why does it have to be constantly defended? Wouldn't as system that is as good as 4e is be able to stand on it's own merits?
Prediction for 5th edition: gencon 2013
the Op is right, 4e's fans are all or nothing. Either you think that 4e is prefect in everyway, or your some kind of h4ter that needs to be stoned for haracy. I'm one of those posters who plays 4e, and enjoys it, as well as wanting to to discuss it, and feels it is incomplete and flawed in many ways.
You don't find this contradictory, calling yourself a player who enjoys 4e, but not a fan?
If you mean fanatic, that's redundant, and independent of 4e.
You don't find this contradictory, calling yourself a player who enjoys 4e, but not a fan?
If you mean fanatic, that's redundant, and independent of 4e.
Main Entry: 3fan
Function: noun
Etymology: probably short for fanatic
Date: 1682
1 : an enthusiastic devotee (as of a sport or a performing art) usually as a spectator
2 : an ardent admirer or enthusiast (as of a celebrity or a pursuit)
One can like or enjoy something without going to the level of devotee, ardent admirer, or enthusiast.
There are reasons we have a previous edition's general. *points below*
It's for people not interested in fourth edition but still want a community to go to.
This is the fourth edition forum. If people don't want to see discussion on it they probably should go to one of the other forums. It is made for the fans of fourth edition. (and apparently the mindless haters that are allowed to puppet themselves into such amounts they can fill ignore lists)
I do have one question for all the 4vengers out there: If 4e is as good as we're told it is, then why does it have to be constantly defended? Wouldn't as system that is as good as 4e is be able to stand on it's own merits?
While I'm not a 4venger, I think I can answer this question. 4E is actually able to stand on its own merits. There are many, many players out there playing the game and there are no signs that WotC is ready to scrap the entire edition (which would be a good decision if the game were a flop). So, essentially, 4E doesn't have to be defended.
This, however, doesn't change the fact that many actually want to defend it. Why? My guess: people don't like other people raining on their parade.
There's almost no way to not read that as intentionally insulting.
Some people also take offense (and rightly so, I believe) when they've said "This thing is great. It's like it was made for me," and another person says "This is terrible. It was made for idiots."
There's almost no way to not read that as intentionally insulting.
Rightly so. There's an important line to be drawn between saying "I don't like it" and "I don't like it, therefore it can only be bad."
As of right now, this is what your signature has, in full. (I don't limit people's sigs, I like reading them):
RIP Gary Gygax ....and thank you for many, many years of the best game I have ever known
I do have one question for all the 4vengers out there: If 4e is as good as we're told it is, then why does it have to be constantly defended? Wouldn't as system that is as good as 4e is be able to stand on it's own merits?
Prediction for 5th edition: gencon 2013
Thats odd, becuase when I look at my sig it reads like so:
RIP Gary Gygax ....and thank you for many, many years of the best game I have ever known
I do have one question for all the 4vengers out there: If 4e is as good as we're told it is, then why does it have to be constantly defended? Wouldn't as system that is as good as 4e is be able to stand on it's own merits?
Prediction for 5th edition: gencon 2013
I also a question for all the haters out there. Why do you care if people like 4e or not? If the system is as bad as you say it is, surely it will fail within a year or two, right?
4e - unaligned: I really couldn't care either way. Play whatever makes you happy, and allow other people the same.
WotC boards: owned by a soulless cooperation
managed by
Programmed by monkeys.
Welcome to the church of awesomeness.
Best Campaign setting ever! Also you can get it now: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php
Edit/Delete Message
Is the hole of it not showing up? Could some else verify weather or not all of that shows up...this is odd.
Thats odd, becuase when I look at my sig it reads like so:
Is the hole of it not showing up? Could some else verify weather or not all of that shows up...this is odd.
Only this part shows up when I look at it:
RIP Gary Gygax ....and thank you for many, many years of the best game I have ever known
Thats odd, becuase when I look at my sig it reads like so:
Is the hole of it not showing up? Could some else verify weather or not all of that shows up...this is odd.
I see your whole sig, though I have the character limiter on, so only the first line shows up naturally (I can scroll through to the rest just fine).
it's more then likely an account setting though, like frito said
in your My account > thread viewing options, under:"thread display options", you'll find a few sections pertaining to sigs in general. if people are having issues viewing them they might want to check that out
Firefox (newest)
Xp sp2.
i might shove the blame on the browser, i'm getting TPK's sig fine on my end. i'm using Firefox 3.0.3 on Win XP SP 3 if that helps.
it's more then likely an account setting though, like frito said
in your My account > thread viewing options, under:"thread display options", you'll find a few sections pertaining to sigs in general. if people are having issues viewing them they might want to check that out
Service pack 2, I think, here... but the browser is the same. Checked thread settings, and it is set for sigs to display, no window, and no line limiter.
I didn't have a problem until this week, maybe its just a display issue?
Since others have seen the sig in full, I do apologise to you, TPK, for implying that you've simply become a 4e hater.
Service pack 2, I think, here... but the browser is the same. Checked thread settings, and it is set for sigs to display, no window, and no line limiter.
I didn't have a problem until this week, maybe its just a display issue?
Since others have seen the sig in full, I do apologise to you, TPK, for implying that you've simply become a 4e hater.
It's cool, your not the first... and I have been a little negative lately.
It's cool, your not the first... and I have been a little negative lately.
Haven't we all?
It's the environment mostly, I think. We all have our problems and we all blow our head time and again. I think most reasonable parties in this discourse should take a breath and reorient themselves.
The last year or so has conditioned us all to fling dlaming poo first, think later. I'll make an effort to change that, for my part.
The PRO side should mostly just take the heat a little less serious and the ANTI (I use this term not for the trolls, but for those who clearly dislike 4E but do not mindlessly hate it) side should really think about taking it a notch down.
Good advice.
More folks should try and go the way Cptn_Micha goes: Try to make the board a better palce (I am pointing to his Helpful Guide with this). Let's all try at least!
I wouldn't look to Micha as an example of good posting...he's as much in the soup as any of us are. Unforchunately the dition war has chassed off the true leaders of these boards, and it's our loss for it.
Unforchunately the dition war has chassed off the true leaders of these boards, and it's our loss for it.
I thought Gleemax had done that...
It's the environment mostly, I think. We all have our problems and we all blow our head time and again. I think most reasonable parties in this discourse should take a breath and reorient themselves.
It's the reason why I am barely posting anymore...
The PRO side should mostly just take the heat a little less serious and the ANTI (I use this term not for the trolls, but for those who clearly dislike 4E but do not mindlessly hate it) side should really think about taking it a notch down.
More folks should try and go the way Cptn_Micha goes: Try to make the board a better palce (I am pointing to his Helpful Guide with this). Let's all try at least!
you speak some truth here.. there are certain posters that, well to be blunt, just **** me off. And these board have most definitely conditioned me to hate first, ask questions later - but i do still maintain there are some Anti-4th ed people who have never seemed to attract much in the way of flames, and that i enjoy conversing with.
But, the whole attitude on these particular forum is why i am spending more and more time hanging out over in the Dark Sun boards (well that and my full dark sun conversion is nearing completion! - i decided I couldn't wait years for WOTC to do it!)
I noticed on the last few responses that people were saying yeah maybe "I" have come down too hard on group x. x = anti-4e or pro 4e.
The people saying this are also a couple of the people I have noticed being the calmer about discussing 4e with people who are obviously anti-4e but have changed tack in recent weeks. That's awesomeness when you can recognize your own failings and try to fix them. Good for you.
But this post was also a bear trap. The people who have been the most mind numbingly beligerent towards people who express different opinions on both sides came out and essentially tried to attack the post or attacked the people who attacked the post.
Some of the ones attacking the post have clearly stated they feel it is their right, their job, their purpose, or a need to attack people who disagree with 4e. Not everyone agrees with this statement. But it gives me a clear distinct view to see who's "discussions" are really cleverly disguised anvils waiting to drop on some unsuspecting contrarian.
Take a look at the responses, notice the ones who say they feel they have a right to attack. Those are the ones who I have seen repeatedly on the boards attack and ridicule posters even if the poster has made a comment worth discussing, just because the comment seems to favor previous editions. Or in some cases they purposefully try to get under a posters skin so that the poster looks like the one doing the attacking.
Yes there have been some ridiculous attacks made by the anti-4e crowd (I can think of one or two off the top of my head) but coming from this freshly since I have been off the boards for months and after reading a lot of posts all at one time (I have absolutely nothing better to do since I have been sick for seven days now) I can find those posts easily and ignore them. What is hard to ignore is that the same five or six people systematically approach OP's that show a preference towards previous editions and attack as if they have formed some core group to do so. I'm not sure if they are 4vengers or whatever they call themselves. I haven't seen one of them identify themselves as 4vengers in the posts and I generally ignore the sigs so maybe they are. I won't assume they are since I don't know who that particular group is.
A few of the people who wrote on this post seem to be convinced that I am an original h4ter. While my personal feelings do run towards the "this edition sucks" side of the scale, I am not a h4ter. Of course I have also not been targeted by the 4tenders (people who pretend to be defending 4e when all they are doing is finding reason to attack others) whenever I opine that something in 4e does not work for me and by saying that "I think this edition sucks" more than "I think it is good" may put me in the line for the next attack. So be it.
My purpose was clear, I want these attacks to stop. The response has been clear. A few think they have the right to attack anyone. Some think since it is easy they should. Some believe that they have maybe gone too far and others think they have not attacked at all.
An addendum For those of you wondering or making claims about my opinions concerning 4e. On a scale from 1-10 if 1 was love 4e and 10 was hate 4e I am about a 6. I'm not going to go into what I think I dislike about 4e here (wrong place). But I will say that some of the additions to 4e that I really like I automatically saw could have been added to 3.5 to make 3.5 a better game, I'm frustrated that they never made those additions previously. But that makes me look forward to 5th.
Always look on the bri-i-ight side of life...
My purpose was clear, I want these attacks to stop. The response has been clear. A few think they have the right to attack anyone. Some think since it is easy they should. Some believe that they have maybe gone too far and others think they have not attacked at all.
I have a feeling I fell into your "trap", but I'll keep bumbling around in here and trying to make something good of it.
Disagreement is not an attack. Your perspective is that certain things are wrong with 4e. If someone posts something that you agree with, you may feel like the negative responses are unfair or dishonest because they go against the "truth" that 4e is bad. But that's just your perspective.
At least you can spell, Slager.
Always look on the bri-i-ight side of life...
On occassion I can even dance, but what the hey?
I tend toward being in defense of 4e. It has happened to me, on more than one occasion, that, when I talk about things I like, others pounce on me & my opinions like a wounded gazelle. The most I have done is persist in my views, and offer other directions the conversation can go. Those are often met with even more hostility. The worst part is that I try to avoid threads where this is going on, mainly because I tried to offer a different point of view on one such thread.
I enjoy 4e. I'm proud of that. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot, but many of the changes that have been made I like. Others have been less than an improvement in my eyes.
It's hard to lend credibility when someone uses the word 'suck' at every opportunity. Also, the very minute I see "money grubbing corporate weasels" and the like, my stomach turns.
Tpk, the reason I'm harsh on you is because I have -never- -ever- seen you say something positive about Fourth Edition nor the people that play it, and yet you claim "neutrality" (when you say more negative than positive that leans you towards negative not positive.) Or that you intentionally misread things to try and say "aha!" when the game runs as intended a certain way. (reflavoring skills and what not for example)
I do try however (unlike so many others on this board) to leave it a better place than I started with, with my Helpful Guide articles, or answering questions people have. I'm down right likeable if someone's actually got a question (that's not loaded) or something intelligent to say. (or are at least capable of backing what they say up with what's actually there)
General should not have become "Teh Editionz Warz" thread location but it has. General should be a place where people go for -help- that isn't really -specific- or to discuss new articles or what have you. Not "D&d =joke" "D&D= teh wowz" "Only dumb peoplezzz playzz 4ezzz!" "real gamers hate 4e!" "It's designed for idiots!" or various other CRAP I have seen posted since I started coming here. Or that the same posters rather than say their peice and move on come back repeatedly just to stir flames and fan the "war" onward.
It's left me with an ingeneral reference policy to just shoot first and ask questions later style of policy when someone's not asking for help, or a -useful- discussion is taking place.
Just a quick note.
After reading oodles of board responses I am sort of tired of the "shut up and go play some other game" response people have when you either prove that 4E fails in some way, opine that 4E is not better than some other edition, or that 4E somehow does not meet the specs of competing with another game system.
This simple solution to the 4.0 goon squad attacking is to present some proof that you don't weigh the same as a duck. This has been concrete proof that those types have used for centuries to ensure you are "okay". ;)
What I found was it was a place I could try to discuss the game only to find people waiting in the wings for anything slightly positive and then jump all over it. Yet some people wonder why the guys here find an issue with that? I'm getting sick of the constant thread derailments that occur around page 3 of any thread when a troll or seven rocks up to bleat their $e propaganda and say how pathfinder is better, yet everyone seems to wonder where the avengers come from.
Every thread that gets derailed by the trolls makes me that much closer to putting a 4e avengers tag in my sig. It's like on balls of steel when the annoying devil goes into the electronics shop and inserts the video into the recorder that makes all the tvs show up with "this shop is s***".
and say how pathfinder is better, yet everyone seems to wonder where the avengers come from.
Pathfinder? I thought this was a 4.0 thread.
Pathfinder? I thought this was a 4.0 thread.
Pathfinder is one of the primary fronts on the 3E/4E Edition Warz battlefield.
****. I hate being an asshat. Sorry, Kursk. 
He knows that, Oblivion.
Actually, I didn't realize that aspect.
i am getting tired of these posts saying we are not allowed to say we like 4E on the 4E boards..
I can't agree more. I also can't stand the constant derailing and hijacking of 4e threads by people who have an agenda against 4e.
As much as some may not like the fact, WotC has moved on. They've made a new edition of D&D, 4th edition. The other editions are now in the past and that will never change. Life goes on. In the interest of a healthy gaming community they allow discussion to range outside of 4e to other editions--remember folks, they are under no obligation to do so.
If someone doesn't like 4e that's their choice. I'm not going to tell that person to get off the forums but I am going to tell them to go start their own threads--and to expect people to disagree with them.
Its far past time that the anti-4e crowd hears this: You can have your say; but you can't have it at the expense of the entire forums.
Do not expect people who do like 4e to roll over and play dead when someone wants to come here and complain about it.
It's the people who out-and-out lie that you need to respond to.
Hey. There's no real reason to respond to most people complaining about 4E, guys. They have opinions, and they don't like certain things, and they want to talk about it. Look at Nemo or Warweaver. Good conversation with people who don't like 4E at the moment, or at least, they don't like many of the aspects of 4E at the moment.
It's the people who out-and-out lie that you need to respond to.
Actually those are the ones you don't want to respond to, as they're probably trolls.
Actually those are the ones you don't want to respond to, as they're probably trolls.
You only reply intelligently, calmly, and with as much factual backing as you can. If they turn ugly after that, and it starts to turn into a Land War in Asia, well, then, yeah. Just...don't go there.
Actually those are the ones you don't want to respond to, as they're probably trolls.
Yeah, the people who repeatedly make up lies are a waste of time. In some limited sense, it might be worthwhile to help new people realize when they are being lied to. But recently the lies have become so obvious and/or incoherent that it's not worthwhile to respond. The books are out, so visitors here almost always have a basic idea of what's in the game. So why fight with trolls?
Yeah, the people who repeatedly make up lies are a waste of time. In some limited sense, it might be worthwhile to help new people realize when they are being lied to. But recently the lies have become so obvious and/or incoherent that it's not worthwhile to respond. The books are out, so visitors here almost always have a basic idea of what's in the game. So why fight with trolls?
99% of the time it is better to just to report & ignore them.
I did see one of those types say that it was better for their criticism of 4th to be logically invalid than to actually know what they are talking about.
Many people like that post with the intent of drawing attacks and derailing threads. A few that receive so many negative comments so so, because they strive for such.
However, replying in that way is still wrong and in many cases against the code of conduct. Also this does tend to cause bleed over onto people that put forth honest criticism of 4th and new people as well.
I've seen more than one complaint of people automatically being called sock puppets and trolls because of a new join date.
People who dislike something, but are willing to expose themselves to it every single day to make sure everyone that does like that thing suffers in some way.
Personally, I wish they'd just waterboard me instead of ruining the places I go for discussion.
Fan Haters.
People who dislike something, but are willing to expose themselves to it every single day to make sure everyone that does like that thing suffers in some way.
Personally, I wish they'd just waterboard me instead of ruining the places I go for discussion.
Vaal is awesome because he expresses things with such beautiful simplicity.
Fan Haters.
People who dislike something, but are willing to expose themselves to it every single day to make sure everyone that does like that thing suffers in some way.
Personally, I wish they'd just waterboard me instead of ruining the places I go for discussion.
Ah yes, the good ole Stop Having Fun Guys! people. They don't like it, so you can't possibly like it, and they're going to make sure you are aware of this in the loudest and most obnoxious way possible.
But this post was also a bear trap. The people who have been the most mind numbingly beligerent towards people who express different opinions on both sides came out and essentially tried to attack the post or attacked the people who attacked the post.
So, what you're saying here is that you were intentionally baiting the forum at large. Good to know.
So, what you're saying here is that you were intentionally baiting the forum at large. Good to know.
Nah, basically, it's the schoolyard. Some kids are good at math, and can distinguish differences in concepts. Some kids, well, can't. The latter beat up on the former whenever possible, mostly out of jealousy or frustration. It doesn't make the thugs bad kids or anything, but that's just how it is.
You see the same thing here, whenever The Forbidden Words are written, or even merely somewhat implied. Some can't see it, some can. The former, out of frustration and jealousy, do what they can to stomp the latter.
Regrettable, and probably why many of the former types go to other forums, where one doesn't see this sort of behavior, or at least not so much.
You don't hit the monkey when he plays the wrong note, you shock the bejesus out of him.
That way, you know the monkey is recieving the same amount of pain each time he
Some kids are good at math, and can distinguish differences in concepts. Some kids, well, can't. The latter beat up on the former whenever possible, mostly out of jealousy or frustration. It doesn't make the thugs bad kids or anything, but that's just how it is.
Seems to me that maybe the problem lies with the kids who keep talking trash and looking for fights. You know, like the OP.
Also, I take issue with the title.
You don't hit the monkey when he plays the wrong note, you shock the bejesus out of him.
That way, you know the monkey is recieving the same amount of pain each time heposts something stupidplays the wrong chord.
Nah, the pain varies here. As a hypothetical example, one guy uses walls of text, prideful ignorance, and horrible illogic, while another uses legions of straw men, lies, and pile drivers to stuff words into his poor victims' mouths.
Can you honestly say these two are equal in their delivery systems? ;)
Also, it'd be easier to deliver high voltage electric shocks via the internet than physical punches, no matter how well deserved.
Seems to me that maybe the problem lies with the kids who keep talking trash and looking for fights. You know, like the OP.
No, Bat, you don't get it. An elite group of smart people knows the truth about 4e (i.e. that it's made from people, MMOs, kitten tears, anime, M:tG, anti-RP dark matter, and not-D&D essence), and they tell it in *every thread*, regardless of topic. When mods make them stop or other posters ask them to let it be, that's because there's a conspiracy against the truth. At least, that's the only explanation that occurs to me.
I'm frankly getting sick and tired of this crap. [Insert Person Here] doesn't like 4e, yeah, we get it. We understand, you don't like the game because of [Insert Reason Here], fine. Now can you please stop whining like a jet engine or go somewhere else so those of us who do like the game can enjoy it in peace?
this i agree with totally.. but i fear it is just wishful thinking... i still do hope though.
No, Bat, you don't get it. An elite group of smart people knows the truth about 4e (i.e. that it's made from people, MMOs, kitten tears, anime, M:tG, anti-RP dark matter, and not-D&D essence), and they tell it in *every thread*, regardless of topic. When mods make them stop or other posters ask them to let it be, that's because there's a conspiracy against the truth. At least, that's the only explanation that occurs to me.
yea, save us from our misguided love of 4E... if only we are as super smart as those who didn't fall for the 4E hype.
But seriously, i am with Ewasick on thins one, i do not understand why people want to come and rain on the people who do enjoy 4th eds parade, the only reason i can think of is they are getting kicks out of being jerks. Wanting to discuss i get, but certain posters have no intention on discussing anything, and only wish to complain, and bait.. I mean, i don't go log onto the previous editions boards to be a jerkass at everybody who likes the edition i don't.
yea, save us from our misguided love of 4E... if only we are as super smart as those who didn't fall for the 4E hype.
But seriously, i am with Ewasick on thins one, i do not understand why people want to come and rain on the people who do enjoy 4th eds parade, the only reason i can think of is they are getting kicks out of being jerks. Wanting to discuss i get, but certain posters have no intention on discussing anything, and only wish to complain, and bait.. I mean, i don't go log onto the previous editions boards to be a jerkass at everybody who likes the edition i don't.
Annonymity + axe to grind + fish in a barrel forum organization = Internet ********.
I'd link to the Penny-Arcade comic that fully explains the phenomenon, but I'm pretty sure it violates the CoC (and I don't feel like getting ineffectively waved at by moderation today).