) people have said Arcane Power was already up for illegal download.Now, I looked for it to see if it was true, which lead me to a few sites that might seems to have a lot of 4e stuff in torrents.
I don't steal and I'm wondering if and/or how best to let WotC know of the sites in question. I don't want to get in trouble for looking, but I also don't want these places to go unmolested in piracy.
What should I do?
I'd think that letting them know where it is happening would help them (at least) find a Mod at such places and have them taken down.
If you truly feel it's neccessary, submit an email to customer service. I wouldn't expect much to come of it though, as Branding (iirc) will likely not follow up on an unsolicited source.
Well, if they don't follow up on such info then why in the 9 hells should any of us worry about trying to help them out by pointing them in the right direction?
So they want to find piracy? Good for them. Let them go look for it on their own.
And even if there is someone who worked full time around the clock for the rest of their lives....you wouldn't make a dent in the amount of piracy, ever. It's a task best left to the authorities, just like any other legal matter.
You should also do so whenever you get reports that a location is selling (or in the case of the internet, shipping) books early, or if you hear from someone who (clearly) has a copy of the book early and you can point 'em towards a thread or something that will help Wizards find out who is doing so. This hurts just about everyone in the business who sells the books at the appropriate time.
Don't be a snitch. What are you, twelve?
I wish I didn't know the first time I'd read this thread that this exact kind of comment would pop up. Truth is the OP is doing the right thing, at least from a legal standpoint. I'm not gonna go into ethics or morality since that's all to grey to really have an objective discussion about anyway. (Plus anyone who follows Nietzche's philosophy rejects morality anyway, which makes it tougher to have a discussion on if we have anyone here like that. :P )
Like others have said, let CustServ know and they'll pass it along to whatever department needs to know about it.
I would imagine there has to be someone who actually works for WOTC who performs this function already.
I'm not so certain of this. In fact, if this is the case, that person should be fired. Immediately. (If that WotC employee happens to read this, my apologies, but you seriously need to brush up on your skills!)
I mean, I'm no internet search expert, but even I have enough google-fu to pull up about a half-dozen sites from which one could download illegal PDFs. I'm not even joking. You don't even need torrents or special apps... it's ridiculously easy. It isn't even about sites popping up faster than they're taken down... these sites just aren't being found in the first place. Every time this topic comes up, I do a quick google search just for the heck of it to see what I can find... and some sites I've found have been up for months. Some of them, probably longer than I know*.
Do I report piracy? Nope. I regard it as a futile endeavor. This is the 21st century... you can put half the world into litigation, but it won't stop or even slow piracy. Besides, I do my part by not participating in piracy in the first place (by not downloading them). I shouldn't have to do a large corporation's job for them by seeking it out to report it.
*No, I won't link them, so don't bother PMing me. Unless you're CS or something, then I'd think about it. Still... there's not much in it for me to do someone else's job.
I dislike gaming PDFs in general. I have little or no use for them. I guess I'm just old-fashioned that I like good, old, hardcover books I can thumb through idly at my leisure, or bring to the table.
Futile? Not really.
I suppose it's futile to have a fire department because houses always catch on fire. (Notice how they can't always save everything?)
I suppose I'll never have to worry about another edition war again.
"4e sucks, it's a videogame/3e is dead, move on" "Oh.. okay."
I suppose we should drop all laws since crime seems to still happen.
You can't just roll over and let people take advantage like that. Because someday companies may decide not to bother producing product due to all the theft. "You" don't work for free. Companies don't produce without profit.
"Don't be a snitch"? A better motto is "Don't be a cheapskate crook."
;)
Piracy is a demand-driven activity. I feel if people just stopped participating in piracy, by not downloading the illegal material, there would be no need to report it. Death by attrition and all that. I don't bring illegal PDFs to the game, and I encourage others to do the same. That, I feel, is each person's obligation to themselves.
That being said, the sad reality of our world is that IP is getting increasingly difficult to control online... nigh impossible even. If someone tries hard enough, someone will always find what they are looking for online (if it exists in that medium). If even one person is illegally distributing intellectual property, the internet has the capability to distribute it to uncounted individuals. Ultimately, the only way to stop online piracy, is to ensure that not even one person on earth is distributing said pirated material online. It would be nice to be sure, but I have no faith that will ever happen. All you need is one Patient Zero.
I feel it is the responsibility of the legitimate owner of the IP (and the government) to ensure that there is as little piracy of their product as possible. The onus should not fall on Joe Average to call the Feds every time he sees a website that is distributing illegal materials. As a consumer, I expect that a part of the price I pay for their material goes into resources spent toward protecting their own IP (and in turn, insuring their business stays afloat and their prices remain competitive and reasonable), as well as my taxes. I support the product by paying my hard-earned cash... I shouldn't have to pay for it in moral obligations as well.
While it sounds good in theory that all gamers should unite and do their part to report IP piracy immediately, that's a net with way too many holes in it. The internet has a anonymity to it that (unfortunately) does not breed the same kind of community sentiment that would allow a chain of citizens to pass buckets of water to put out a fire. The chain's too thin, and the fire's too big online.
Don't get me wrong now: I do sincerely wish it was different. I wish the internet was small enough that if everyone who saw pirated IP online reported it we could snuff out piracy altogether. But, well, it isn't that small. I don't like that any more than you do, but there it is.
I don't have a problem with people who report these sites either. If it helps someone sleep better at night to be an IP paladin, more power to them, I won't stand in their way for a moment. But some of us neutral folks don't take kindly to being grouped in with the legitimate criminals (by those same paladins) by virtue of the fact that we lead independently legal lives. Should we all be like that? Probably not, but hey, not everyone wants to moonlight as a cop... we've got other responsibilities of greater import.
For some of us, not supporting crime in the first place is our public service and that's where we draw the line as our right. We don't like criminals, but we know they'll always be around, since they've been around since the creation of laws. We don't always chase them down or blow whistles, but we don't harbour them or support them either. I think that should count for something, regardless of whether or not the paladins feel we "haven't done enough."
Everyone is legally neutral to some extent, we all just have different limits. I mean, technically it's a crime for someone to not report their yard-sale earnings on their taxes... but most of us don't report our neighbours anyway. Why? Because we can't be bothered, or we feel reporting them would be futile. Does that make us bad people? Nope. Does that mean we feel the legal system is entirely useless? Nope. We just all have our own corner-cases that we are content to disregard, content in the knowledge that we may not necessarily do the same ourselves out of moral obligation.
I'm OK with that.
(Sorry about the long post, I just like to make sure my stance is clear.)
The digital format is the only really useful format in gaming and it speeds up looking for rules, just printing that little rule snippet for the [insert Class here], having multiple books available at the click of a button instead of pawing through books.
Another immense plus of the whole digitilisation is that you could easily game anywhere. No longer would you think "Oh damn, these books weigh a TON!", it was just bring your laptop and off we went.
Before PDFs were available I scanned my books but that was an impractical method since the resulting PDFs would not be searchable and quite expansive in size. It did however work if you only scanned very often used pages and saved them as individual files with easily referencable names.
I might belong to a minority since I haven't previously simply used pirated PDFs but paid for them all via DriveThruRPG. Now I'm basically labelled a pirate by Wizards and the quality I have been led to expect and demand is no longer becoming available since I'm stamped as a criminal by the publisher.
In my estimation this will not lead to customer loyalty or satisfaction. By saying all users of D&D4 products are criminals, they are putting up a huge fence between themselves and their paying customers.
I might belong to a minority since I haven't previously simply used pirated PDFs but paid for them all via DriveThruRPG. Now I'm basically labelled a pirate by Wizards and the quality I have been led to expect and demand is no longer becoming available since I'm stamped as a criminal by the publisher.
In my estimation this will not lead to customer loyalty or satisfaction. By saying all users of D&D4 products are criminals, they are putting up a huge fence between themselves and their paying customers.
I'm sorry you feel that way Klausgreen, but nobody at Wizards of the Coast believes users who purchased D&D 4e PDF products are criminals.
Contacting Customer Service the right thing to do? Definitely.
Futile? Not really.
I suppose it's futile to have a fire department because houses always catch on fire. (Notice how they can't always save everything?)
I suppose I'll never have to worry about another edition war again.
"4e sucks, it's a videogame/3e is dead, move on" "Oh.. okay."
I suppose we should drop all laws since crime seems to still happen.
You can't just roll over and let people take advantage like that. Because someday companies may decide not to bother producing product due to all the theft. "You" don't work for free. Companies don't produce without profit.
"Don't be a snitch"? A better motto is "Don't be a cheapskate crook."
;)
No I think in this economy, I wouldn't want to do the work that someone else should be getting paid to do. And if WotC doesn't have at least a few geeks working to do just that, they deserve the consequences.
I don't litter, but I don't go walking around my hometown cleaning the streets in my spare time...there are guys who actually do that for a living.
Now if you have some special knowledge of someone who is pirating WotC's stuff that only you know how to find...well then sure I think you would be honor bound to say something to someone...but it sounds as if you are just doing a simple google search...my mom can do that...and WotC sure should be.
...my 2 cents
I'm sorry you feel that way Klausgreen, but nobody at Wizards of the Coast believes users who purchased D&D 4e PDF products are criminals.
The folks at WotC may not believe that but to many of us who legally purchased their products on pdf...it sure feels that way. All we know is that we wanted to continue using their products via pdfs and now we can't and we didn't do anything wrong. And as has been stated so many times on these boards in the last week...this move will absolutely not stop the pirating of their material. My guess would be it will do just the opposite and if the OP is telling the truth, and I have no reason to believe he isn't, the pirates have already hit a product that isn't even supposed to be on the market yet...now if that doesn't warrant a great big "I told you so!", I don't know what does.
I'm not defending piracy, far from it. I don't do it, I think it's wrong, etc...but no selling me a pdf because someone else may have pirated it, just seems counter productive. If anything, this should show them even if they stop selling them, they still get pirated...so why not at least make a few bucks on it and keep the fans like us who love the pdf format happy instead of making us annoyed and insulted.
I don't litter, but I don't go walking around my hometown cleaning the streets in my spare time...there are guys who actually do that for a living..
I guess I'm a real good guy as if I walk past a barrel and there's trash right there, I'd pick it up.
And it's not a matter of "let's go hunt these sites down", it's if you come across them or know of them.
A wise man once said, "He Riddles me. The ancient riddle: "What's the point?" Have you ever seen an eagle flying back to his home with dinner for the Mrs. and all the little eagle babies. And he's flying against the wind and he's flying in the rain and he's flying through bullets and all kinds of hell, and then right at that moment when he's about to get back to his nest, he says, "What the
, it's a drag being an eagle" and right then two little x'es comes across his eyes just like in the old fashion cartoons. And he goes plunging down, and down and down and BAM. He's just a splatter of feathers and then we don't have the national bird of America no more. Did you ever see that?"Don't give up, fellow Paladins!
:D
I wish I didn't know the first time I'd read this thread that this exact kind of comment would pop up. Truth is the OP is doing the right thing, at least from a legal standpoint. I'm not gonna go into ethics or morality since that's all to grey to really have an objective discussion about anyway. (Plus anyone who follows Nietzche's philosophy rejects morality anyway, which makes it tougher to have a discussion on if we have anyone here like that. :P )
He is doing the wrong thing. Turning the jaws of a large company on the meat of a small person trying to make an extra buck. Sure it is legal for them to do that. Doesn't make it right by any stretch. And I have to question mr. krown's motives for doing so. Interesting they plucked out my original post. In this economy, I can't justify what Mr. Krown is doing.
I am, or rather was an avid fan of all D&D products, i recently decided to switch to digital purchases due to the fact that storing 100 hardback books can become quit troublesome.
I was therefore horrified to find out that i can no longer download something i have paid for.
These heavy handed tactics will have only the opposite effect that Wizards desire. I feel victimised for purchasing products legally and correctly. I understand that WIzards are worried about losing money to piracy however DRM will not prevent this.
Look at the case of EA games, a software company, they decided a few years ago to reduce piracy by making all of their software titles DRM only. Their latest releases eg Spore were some of the most highly pirated releases in history. The only logical conclusion to make from this is that by making your products more difficult to buy you will lose existing customers to piracy, and DRM does not reduce piracy in anyway. It took only 2 days for Spore's DRM to be cracked, you cannot stop piracy, you can only try and encourage law abiding people to purchase your product.
A word of warning, if you release all future PDFs with DRM i will never purchase another product from you again.
And just to point out EA recently decided to abandon DRM for the latest release The Sims 3, one can only assume this is because their profit margins were hit by angry customers, if a software company cannot prevent piracy with an anti pirate software, what makes you think you can.
Please do not make me find another RPG to play, i used to purchase a digital product once per month which i imagine most people do, that may be a sizeable amount of money you are losing out on.
I do hope somebody that works for Wizards of the Coast reads this.
I am, or rather was an avid fan of all D&D products, i recently decided to switch to digital purchases due to the fact that storing 100 hardback books can become quit troublesome.
I was therefore horrified to find out that i can no longer download something i have paid for.
These heavy handed tactics will have only the opposite effect that Wizards desire. I feel victimised for purchasing products legally and correctly. I understand that WIzards are worried about losing money to piracy however DRM will not prevent this.
Look at the case of EA games, a software company, they decided a few years ago to reduce piracy by making all of their software titles DRM only. Their latest releases eg Spore were some of the most highly pirated releases in history. The only logical conclusion to make from this is that by making your products more difficult to buy you will lose existing customers to piracy, and DRM does not reduce piracy in anyway. It took only 2 days for Spore's DRM to be cracked, you cannot stop piracy, you can only try and encourage law abiding people to purchase your product.
A word of warning, if you release all future PDFs with DRM i will never purchase another product from you again.
And just to point out EA recently decided to abandon DRM for the latest release The Sims 3, one can only assume this is because their profit margins were hit by angry customers, if a software company cannot prevent piracy with an anti pirate software, what makes you think you can.
Please do not make me find another RPG to play, i used to purchase a digital product once per month which i imagine most people do, that may be a sizeable amount of money you are losing out on.
Agreed. I have already vowed to longer buy wizards products. It began with the release of PHBs once a year (just a sneaky way to force me to buy the core products). I much prefered having three core books, and everything else being optional. But this is beyond the pale. And I know a great many gamers, especially on the other forums, feel the same way.
He is doing the wrong thing. Turning the jaws of a large company on the meat of a small person trying to make an extra buck. Sure it is legal for them to do that. Doesn't make it right by any stretch. And I have to question mr. krown's motives for doing so. Interesting they plucked out my original post. In this economy, I can't justify what Mr. Krown is doing.
Then why call the cops if someone is getting mugged? Why turn the strong arm of the law onto some unfortunate soul who simply doesn't want to have to earn an honest living? Why should I call the police if you're getting robbed? Why should I care if I see someone is stealing your car? After all, that chopshop has to make a buck.
Why? Because some of us are still the good guys.
Then why call the cops if someone is getting mugged? Why turn the strong arm of the law onto some unfortunate soul who simply doesn't want to have to earn an honest living? Why should I call the police if you're getting robbed? Why should I care if I see someone is stealing your car? After all, that chopshop has to make a buck.
Why? Because some of us are still the good guys.
Because in this case, a person is physically in danger and being victimized. You are comparing apples to oranges.
But ultimately, if I see someone stealing at a store, it isn't my responsibility to turn them in. And knowing what I know about most people who steal, I wouldn't do so. The last thing I want to do, is create legal trouble for someone who is alreay desperate.
Crime is crime and you can't smudge it over in convenient shades of grey. Stealing a product that should otherwise be paid for, if it's for sale at all, is stealing. Stealing is a crime. Period. No grey areas, no "yeah, but...", it's a crime, black and white. I have no sympathy for thieves, regardless of circumstance.
Legally there is no grey. Ethically there is. I am sorry, I can't agree with your no sympathy for the criminal crap. If a woman has no food for her children, and steals to feed them, that is totally different from a millionare who doesn't need money, ripping people off. Two different things. The acts are both criminal, but you must account for context. And frankly, I am tired of this rule lawyer attitude that got us into this economic mess in the first place. What america needs now is some freaking compassion. Not this black and white BS.
But D&D books/PDF's are not as important as food, water, and a place to stay. I don't get why you are making such a big deal about this. Honestly, I think that PDF's are hard to work with and suck anyways. Why are you complaining about it so much? And no, piracy is not ok. Stealing D&D material is far different from stealing food to survive. D&D is not necessary to live. It's a luxury.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Legally there is no grey. Ethically there is. I am sorry, I can't agree with your no sympathy for the criminal crap. If a woman has no food for her children, and steals to feed them, that is totally different from a millionare who doesn't need money, ripping people off. Two different things. The acts are both criminal, but you must account for context. And frankly, I am tired of this rule lawyer attitude that got us into this economic mess in the first place. What america needs now is some freaking compassion. Not this black and white BS.
I'll bet that woman in your example has plenty of money for her smokes, drugs, or booze. Get thee to a soup kitchen or any other innumerable charities that help people. Catholic Charities. Goodwill. Salvation Army. County resources department. You know why they don't? Because they won't let go of their drugs and booze, or they have this crackpot idea that asking for help will wound their pride, and they'd rather have their pride than feed their children. There are plenty of other paths other than stealing.
Black and white.
I'll bet that woman in your example has plenty of money for her smokes, drugs, or booze. Get thee to a soup kitchen or any other innumerable charities that help people. Catholic Charities. Goodwill. Salvation Army. County resources department. You know why they don't? Because they won't let go of their drugs and booze, or they have this crackpot idea that asking for help will wound their pride, and they'd rather have their pride than feed their children. There are plenty of other paths other than stealing.
Black and white.
This. Stealing has no excuse in this day and age. If you really need food there's ways to get it without stealing, and without money. Food banks are all over the place, the Salvation Army has locations in cities across the country (at the very least, I don't know about their operations around the globe,) and they provide meals for the less fortunate. When it comes to crime there aren't "shades of grey" like you would have us believe, numbertwelve.
When I see someone stealing from the store, I say something to them, possibly bring it to the attention of the management, and then (in the case of someone stealing food) point them to nearby food banks and soup kitchens.
In the case of someone stealing what, in the end, is a luxury item I turn them in to the store management, no ifs, ands, or buts.
For instance: If you report 10 previously unknown piracy sites (as confirmed by CS), you earn a Custom Avatar or Custom Title or something to that extent. I'm sure many posters would feel more inclined to participate if such a program were offered. (Assuming such a system is workable and not abusable, of course.)
I mean, it's not as altruistic as just relying on each person's moral obligations to be enough incentive to report piracy, but it wouldn't cost WotC anything to make such an offering... in fact increased reporting would only aid them. What could it hurt (except piracy)?
I know this suggestion may not sit well with those who feel we all have a moral obligation alone to report piracy sites, but perhaps it would aid WotC if they offered some sort of incentive-based program to encourage others to report piracy.
For instance: If you report 10 previously unknown piracy sites (as confirmed by CS), you earn a Custom Avatar or Custom Title or something to that extent. I'm sure many posters would feel more inclined to participate if such a program were offered. (Assuming such a system is workable and not abusable, of course.)
I mean, it's not as altruistic as just relying on each person's moral obligations to be enough incentive to report piracy, but it wouldn't cost WotC anything to make such an offering... in fact increased reporting would only aid them. What could it hurt (except piracy)?
It's definitely a practical suggestion, since I wouldn't count on the average person's moral compass pointing them towards turning in piracy. That said if the custom avatars/titles are identifiable as being because someone did turn in piracy sites it would make them extremely unpopular with some on the boards, and possibly even make them target for personal attacks and trolling.
It's definitely a practical suggestion, since I wouldn't count on the average person's moral compass pointing them towards turning in piracy. That said if the custom avatars/titles are identifiable as being because someone did turn in piracy sites it would make them extremely unpopular with some on the boards, and possibly even make them target for personal attacks and trolling.
I agree. Such rewards would need to be ambiguous as to their source to be desired. I mean, a custom banner that says "IP Paladin" would most certainly be inviting trouble.
He is doing the wrong thing. Turning the jaws of a large company on the meat of a small person trying to make an extra buck. Sure it is legal for them to do that. Doesn't make it right by any stretch. And I have to question mr. krown's motives for doing so. Interesting they plucked out my original post. In this economy, I can't justify what Mr. Krown is doing.
You can't justify doing what's right?
If you must know, I'm a former soldier and in the Army we learn a certain thing called values...
Duty, honor, loyalty, responsibility, etc...
I guess learning to be a decent human being has stuck with me.
krown I'm with you on the duty, honor, loyalty, responsibility,... those are things we need to be teaching kids. It's the best way to shape the future.
krown[/b] I'm with you on the duty, honor, loyalty, responsibility,... those are things we need to be teaching kids. It's the best way to shape the future.
Well, I keep trying to get the government to make military service mandatory... they don't like the idea.
;)
You can't justify doing what's right?
If you must know, I'm a former soldier and in the Army we learn a certain thing called values...
Duty, honor, loyalty, responsibility, etc...
I guess learning to be a decent human being has stuck with me.
I'm right with you on that. I couldn't get into the military for medical reasons, but I was in Air Force JROTC for all 4 years of high school, and quite a bit of it has stuck with me. Foremost was the cadet's code of honor, and the core values: 1) Integrity first, 2) Service before self, and 3) Excellence in all we do.
I agree. Such rewards would need to be ambiguous as to their source to be desired. I mean, a custom banner that says "IP Paladin" would most certainly be inviting trouble.
That would paint a target on the poster.
That would paint a target on the poster.
A big one in Fluorescent colors, with a Neon billboard of an arrow pointing to it.
I've been discussing the PDF issue and (after being banned for the first time, without warning even, for posting 'whining serves no purpose'!
Now, I looked for it to see if it was true, which lead me to a few sites that might seems to have a lot of 4e stuff in torrents.
I don't steal and I'm wondering if and/or how best to let WotC know of the sites in question. I don't want to get in trouble for looking, but I also don't want these places to go unmolested in piracy.
What should I do?
Ugh...how about mind your own business. Maybe you ought to go do something practical, like give a homeless person a blanket, than waste time pestering minor looters of an evil game empire...WWCD (What would Conan do)? See below...
Ugh...how about mind your own business. Maybe you ought to go do something practical, like give a homeless person a blanket, than waste time pestering minor looters of an evil game empire...WWCD (What would Conan do)? See below...
So, uh, why are you even on this site, then? Lending your support to an "evil gaming empire"?
Rock on, Krown. You know where I stand, and it has nothing to do with moral trendiness.
Person has Thing, Thief takes Thing, Person doesn't have Thing anymore.
Person has Thing, 'Thief' makes a copy of Thing, Person has Thing, 'Thief' has Thing.
Person sails across the ocean with Thing, Pirate raids the ship killing all on board and taking their Thing, Person is dead and doesn't care anymore.
Now yes people will circumvent these protections, but the point is not to dissuade the people with a degree in IT. You want to convince joe citizen that it isn't worth their time and effort attempting to break the law. A torrent is a very easy way to access information, google and uTorrent is a click away. Circumventing Steam (as an example) would be beyond most Joe Citizen's.
Just my 2 cents (aussie) worth
Legally there is no grey. Ethically there is. I am sorry, I can't agree with your no sympathy for the criminal crap. If a woman has no food for her children, and steals to feed them, that is totally different from a millionare who doesn't need money, ripping people off. Two different things. The acts are both criminal, but you must account for context. And frankly, I am tired of this rule lawyer attitude that got us into this economic mess in the first place. What america needs now is some freaking compassion. Not this black and white BS.
What America needs now is some personal responsibility and an end to the entitlement. We're talking about a game here, folks, not food for starving children. If you can't afford to buy the books, don't play the game. You have no need or right to have the products WotC works hard to produce. If you want them, buy them and give the company its due.
As for turning the other way when you see someone stealing, what about the person who owns the store. If everyone tolerated stealing as much as you seem to, stores would go out of business, employees who couldn't stop the stealing would be fired and need to steal themselves, and the people who produced the goods would stop doing so, as they weren't getting anything in return.
Piracy is a communal issue. It's prevalent because too many people take a blase attitude about it. I've even been guilty of tolerating friends who have a complete collection of pirated pdfs instead of books, although I always managed to at least pose an argument against the practice. If we keep excusing it, it will continue to grow. Maybe this is just WotC's attempt to get us, the gaming community, to look at this frustrating reality they deal with on a daily basis.
When we support piracy we aren't just sticking it to WOTC but the employees who depend on it turning a profit to keep their jobs.
When profits go down it's not usually board members or the talent who lose their jobs but the regular joe working to support his family.
There is no such thing as a victimless crime.
Or as the wiccans say "An it harm none, do as thou wilt". Just remember to look further than the face value of your actions though, you might be very surprised who gets hurt as a result.
Later days
I've found a few sites (some say they have Arcane Power) but do not know if they really have them. I'll be sending them to CS today and I hope others who happen to see any will choose to do the same.
Perhaps a more effective way to deal with digital piracy is something akin to how Valve have with their digitally distributed Steam format? Attach all relevant purchased items to an account, which can only be accessed if that account is verified every time the person logs on. Yes it means you have to be near an internet connection or at the very least establish your account for offline viewing (which means verifying your documents a second time over), but it is more effective than the Carpet Bombing that is DRM.
Now yes people will circumvent these protections, but the point is not to dissuade the people with a degree in IT. You want to convince joe citizen that it isn't worth their time and effort attempting to break the law. A torrent is a very easy way to access information, google and uTorrent is a click away. Circumventing Steam (as an example) would be beyond most Joe Citizen's.
Just my 2 cents (aussie) worth
Until the person with the IT degree posts the crack in a downloadable .exe making it readily availably for Joe Snuffy.
Keep in mind that pirated downloads of 3e books were widely available despite the fact that WotC didn't publish any pdf versions of those books. All it takes is a scanner with pdf creation software and little bit of time.
The answer to piracy isn't protection that only makes things difficult for the legal end user. It's not cracking down on sites (one of the most popular, piratebay is in another country where our laws don't apply, report it all you want, but nothing will come of it). It's making the legal option more attractive than the illegal option. That is the only effective way to curb piracy.
As I pointed out in another thread, TV shows are now available on demand online for free and legally. No more need to pirate TV series. And the producers still make money via commercials inserted into the online show
WotC should look at that and develop a similar model that could work for pdfs. Besides, their pdfs are really just advertising. Every gamer I know wants a hard copy of any book they use regularly, even if they already have it in pdf.
Just my 2 cents.
The trouble with fighting piracy is that there's no conceivable end in sight, and there never will be. One digital copy (whether leaked, cracked or scanned) can be redistributed infinitely. Someone can buy a $100 textbook and make a digital copy, seed it, and bam, every student in the whole frickin' world has access to it. Dozens, hundreds, thousands. Some torrents get near to a million complete transfers. It's easy and free and fast, and it's hard to find everyone who downloaded it; sometimes it's hard to be sure of anyone specific.
That doesn't mean it's legal, given current laws, but it's nigh unenforcable. Combined with shifting beliefs about the morality of content control - we have professors of law and practicing lawyers now condemning the current system and its methods of enforcement - and we're faced with this: the internet has grown up (or at least, reached a significant new stage of development) and it's time for the business world to evolve, so they can start being capitalists again, instead of being too afraid to seek and employ new opportunities more fitting of the new world.
Capitalism gives the right to succeed at the risk of failure. If WotC - or any other company - thinks they can avoid failure by fighting piracy, they will fail. They need to adapt to the environment of the 21st century, and sell something that can't be freely and infinitely copied. It's on no one's head but their own if they lack the cunning to seize success.
All that said, knock yourself out. If you feel good about reporting it, good for you. If WotC wants to spend its time on this, they have their resources; they can use them however they want. I just think they should have more important things to do.
Addendum: Just saw the post directly above mine (it wasn't there when I dediced to open a tab for replying ^^ ) - and that's exactly what I'm getting at. You've even been a better contributor than me by giving an example of where another market is trying to adapt. Perhaps a free "lite" edition of one of the magazines could include advertisements (tastefully inserted so that people aren't motivated enough to edit them out or seek "clean" copies). This might even work for previews or excerpts of high-profile products. Imagine: the PHB1 (now that 2 is out), released one section per month, with a small advertising bar every three or so pages. As some kind of web page (maybe a simple flash app to prevent easy copying, but with a search field for easy lookup - anyways - ) they could even use one of those ad rotator/provider services so that they don't have to manage selling the space themselves. In fact, as a web page, people would keep coming back to the page, thus being exposed to ads every time. Heck, if I can seriously get back into writing I think I'll do this, myself.
I'm sorry you feel that way Klausgreen, but nobody at Wizards of the Coast believes users who purchased D&D 4e PDF products are criminals.
That's non-sensical to even post and can only be seen as a patronising insult.
Normally when you buy digital products, you are allowed a certain number of downloads so that you can reclaim your purchases if for some reason your computer fails, your hard drive becomes corrupted or similar things. In this case Wizards is actually cancelling the purchase itself, making it void on my end without compensating me in the slightest way!
And this is after final purchase has been made. I'm currently having my lawyer look into this as this is pure breach of contractual consent. Just as people can't be allowed to steal products just because they are in a digital format, a retailing company can't withdraw their product no matter the medium. At least not without full compensation.
This debate on the other hand will ofcourse not be conducted on the forum, although the glaringly offensive answer by Paradox will be included in the complaint.
That's non-sensical to even post and can only be seen as a patronising insult.
Normally when you buy digital products, you are allowed a certain number of downloads so that you can reclaim your purchases if for some reason your computer fails, your hard drive becomes corrupted or similar things. In this case Wizards is actually cancelling the purchase itself, making it void on my end without compensating me in the slightest way!
And this is after final purchase has been made. I'm currently having my lawyer look into this as this is pure breach of contractual consent. Just as people can't be allowed to steal products just because they are in a digital format, a retailing company can't withdraw their product no matter the medium. At least not without full compensation.
This debate on the other hand will ofcourse not be conducted on the forum, although the glaringly offensive answer by Paradox will be included in the complaint.
It would be a better business model for you to use the money you will be paying your lawyer for no good reason to go out and purchase the hardbound copies of the books.
It would be a better business model for you to use the money you will be paying your lawyer for no good reason to go out and purchase the hardbound copies of the books.
And that's exactly what's wrong with everyone everywhere. If they stopped paying lawyers to go and try to make them a quick million, they'd actually be able to fix whatever problem someone caused them.
Normally when you buy digital products, you are allowed a certain number of downloads so that you can reclaim your purchases if for some reason your computer fails, your hard drive becomes corrupted or similar things. In this case Wizards is actually cancelling the purchase itself, making it void on my end without compensating me in the slightest way!
And this is after final purchase has been made. I'm currently having my lawyer look into this as this is pure breach of contractual consent. Just as people can't be allowed to steal products just because they are in a digital format, a retailing company can't withdraw their product no matter the medium. At least not without full compensation.
I point you to the post by Steve Weik of RPGNow:
Steve Wieck with DriveThruRPG/RPGNow here.
I thought I would respond to a couple items discussed on the thread.
First, there are no "contract negotiations" with Wizards that led to the current situation. We have been doing business with Wizards on downloads for over six years now and always enjoyed a positive and co-operative license relationship. The thread's hypothesis that the situation might be a result of a negotiation issue is a reasonable hypothesis but is incorrect.
On Monday I spoke with Wizards' legal department in a call that I thought would discuss the lawsuits Wizards has filed. We had been co-operating with Wizards to supply information on pirated files for those lawsuits (as allowed under our site privacy policy). Instead I was informed of Wizards' decision to cease all PDF sales at this time. It was a complete surprise to me.
Wizards gave us legal notice to remove their titles. Due to what I'll characterize as a miscommunication on intent, we complied immediately and removed all public access to Wizards' products from DriveThruRPG and RPGNow. In turns out this was not a situation that either we or Wizards desired. I am in discussions with Wizards legal and it looks highly probable that we will be able to offer customers time to come back and re-download prior purchases for their personal archives. We will email and post information on sites once we have final confirmation on this.
I regret that some customers have inferred that our download counts are any guarantee of availability to re-download titles. We really do not like iTunes' approach of "one download, you lose it, pay again" so we do our best to offer perpetual downloads of purchased titles. Our agreements with publishers though do not let us guarantee this - as this situation makes clear. We have learned a lesson here by reading that some customers inferred otherwise, and we will make some changes soon to clarify this on DriveThruRPG and RPGNow.
We are offering full refunds to anyone who purchased a Wizards title from us but never downloaded it. These are extremely rare cases, as most everyone downloaded the goodies as soon as they were originally purchased.
I am otherwise as confused as anyone else here on the rationale behind Wizards' decision. I know there are some smart people at Wizards like Scott who get it, so I can only speculate that there are others who are not as informed and who are making the call on this.
As many other folks on this forum have stated, I also believe that piracy for the foreseeable future is unavoidable for books. So long as printed copies and scanners and torrents exist, rpg books have been and will be pirated. It's sad and fatalistic, but it's true.
Given that rpg books will always be on file-sharing sites, it means that anyone who purchases a legal PDF is doing so because they prefer to make that choice over pirating the file. Thankfully, the number of rpg fans who make that decision are legion and it lets us send payments every month to hundreds of rpg publishers and creators. By making this choice to legally support thier hobby, fans are keeping rpgs alive. I say that without one bit of exaggeration or melodrama. Around seven new rpg titles go live every day at DriveThruRPG and RPGNow. The hobby could not be nearly that prolific if not due to fans choosing to support their hobby.
This makes DRM an extremely poor choice for any publisher. DRM inevitably restricts ease of purchase and ease of use, and anything that tips customer choice from legal purchase toward pirating is a bad business decision. DRM does nothing to prevent pirated files from being available, since the files will already be available anyway from scanned copy.
We already learned lessons on DRM the hard way in the past, so I know the issue intimately. For many years now, we have embraced watermarking as the preferable solution.
The posts by D&D fans across all gaming forums, while angry at times, are ultimately posted out of concern for Wizards and the desire to see Wizards make the best choices. Whether I ever do business with Wizards again or not, Wizards is a big part of the hobby that I love and for that reason alone, I hope that they reconsider. Especially given the ongoing fan feedback on this, I am optimistic that they will.
Steve
www.DriveThruRPG.com
www.RPGNow.com
Emphasis mine.
In other words, WotC had nothing to do with offering multiple/unlimited downloads. That is all from the retailer, not from WotC. Any anger you have over no longer having access should be directed at the retailer, not at WotC. WotC is not the one who guaranteed multiple downloads of your purchase.
/endsarcasm
To be honest the models proposed by Ascot and Bonenaga are probably the way that Wizards will eventually have to go. Piracy is very much here to stay, love it or loathe it. Traditional means of comabtting such problems are failing for that exact same reason, they are traditional in a world that has changed a great deal since Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax (may they both roll natural 20's in the gaming hall in the sky) first started writing these rules down and codifying them.
Change is inevitable, perhaps it's time to hop into the 21st century.
As I pointed out in another thread, TV shows are now available on demand online for free and legally. No more need to pirate TV series. And the producers still make money via commercials inserted into the online show
WotC should look at that and develop a similar model that could work for pdfs. Besides, their pdfs are really just advertising. Every gamer I know wants a hard copy of any book they use regularly, even if they already have it in pdf.
Personally, I don't want ads in my books. And we're not talking about the ads on the last page or two. Advertising in a book would be like advertising in TV. Everywhere. Do you want your rule books to look like the printed Dragon magazine? ;)
I myselve also served in the Army, even it was not yours, however I served as Nato Soldier under US Officers and even got a medal from a US 2-Star General personally (I have a picture as proof if anyone is not believing me). Now, don't get me wrong. I don't want to talk bad about anyone I served with, but it is simply nonsense to think that people get taught values in the forces all are true to them. I know too many negative examples.
Wizards of the Coast fails saving throw against pirates
Wizards of the Coast has been hit by piracy of its source books, and promptly began suing file-sharers. Taking the PDF files of the books out of virtual stores has enraged fans, although the company may put the files back. How will it protect its intellectual property? That's a good question.
By Ben Kuchera | Last updated April 8, 2009 11:05 AM CTText Size Print this article Leave a comment In the days of MMO gaming and online play, the idea of sitting around a card table and actually playing with people in the room must seem almost quaint to some. There is still much joy to be had in playing table-top Dungeons and Dragons however, although Wizards of the Coast is now dealing with some modern problems. Rampant piracy of its products has led the company to sue a number of individuals and to yank all the for-pay PDF files from the Internet.
Wizards of the Coast has filed three lawsuits against eight defendants (via TechDirt) from the US, Poland, and the Phillipines. The complaint? That the defendants allegedly bought digital copies of the Player's Handbook 2, and then uploaded them to certain file-sharing sites. As of yesterday, the PDF files were not available for purchase legally.
Ars called Wizards of the Coast PR Manager Tolena Thorburn to talk about the situation. She denied that the company took down the files themselves. "We have relationships, contracts with those companies," she explained to Ars. "What we did is we terminated our contracts. When we terminated the contracts, the files come down. The reason? The severe increase of piracy of the products."
Wizards of the Coast products have long been easily available online... if you know where to look. At what point does the problem get bad enough for a move this drastic? "There wasn't a specific number for us," Thorburn said. "In these lawsuits, which are public information, you would see that this specifically revolves around the players handbooks. They were released and, the same day, there were thousands of copies being downloaded illegally. It's very frustrating for us."
We asked if, at the moment, there was any way to download the PDF files legally. "There should not be," she told Ars. "You can buy the books online, but not the pdfs." This has frustrated many fans, and some blogs are pointing out that now the only way to get these books digitally is to pirate them. Thorburn wouldn't say whether or not the files will be coming back, or when, but she did say Wizards is "actively exploring other avenues for digital distribution."
How do you stop these books from finding their way on to BitTorrent trackers? It's a tough question, one that software companies haven't yet found a good answer for. It's even harder for companies selling information in physical form; copying the content is as easy as brewing a pot of coffee and connecting a scanner to your computer. You can add DRM to the files to protect your intellectual property, but that again simply makes the pirated product more appealing. Having no legal way to buy the files is a damaging strategy in a time when a dungeon master is almost as likely to have a laptop as he is to have a pad of paper.
"It's a difficult problem to have, and it's one that plagues our industry," Thorburn said. "We didn't do this lightly, and we understand our fans enjoy that format. Most of the fans who have legally purchased PDFs are also customers who have the physical product. Until we have another digital solution, I think our fans at least are not being deprived of the product, and I think that's really important, that they have the product that they know and love."
Wait, so letting WotC know where their products are being pirated is a wasted effort?
I think that telling them anything that average joes like us can discover with a quick google search would indeed be a wasted effort. WotC should be aware of any sites that can be found that easily
I'm not so certain of this. In fact, if this is the case, that person should be fired. Immediately. (If that WotC employee happens to read this, my apologies, but you seriously need to brush up on your skills!)
I mean, I'm no internet search expert, but even I have enough google-fu to pull up about a half-dozen sites from which one could download illegal PDFs. I'm not even joking. You don't even need torrents or special apps... it's ridiculously easy. It isn't even about sites popping up faster than they're taken down... these sites just aren't being found in the first place. Every time this topic comes up, I do a quick google search just for the heck of it to see what I can find... and some sites I've found have been up for months. Some of them, probably longer than I know*.
That's because most of them are located in places where WotC is unable to do anything to them. If you can find them within the first few pages of google hits, so can WotC. Yet knowing about them and being able to enforce legal actions against sites located in Tonga are different matters.
I myselve also served in the Army, even it was not yours, however I served as Nato Soldier under US Officers and even got a medal from a US 2-Star General personally (I have a picture as proof if anyone is not believing me). Now, don't get me wrong. I don't want to talk bad about anyone I served with, but it is simply nonsense to think that people get taught values in the forces all are true to them. I know too many negative examples.
Of course not. Not everyone chooses to be a decent person, even in the armed forces. That does not, however, deny that we are taught values that are considered the standard for living in the military.
Personally, I don't want ads in my books. And we're not talking about the ads on the last page or two. Advertising in a book would be like advertising in TV. Everywhere. Do you want your rule books to look like the printed Dragon magazine? ;)
If the alternative was not having them at all, or legitimate customers having to jump through hoops because of (ultimately pointless) protections designed to stop piracy, then yes.
You have no right to drive up their costs, which will be passed on to us, which may lead to more piracy, which will cause them to have to spend more money, which will cause them to have to rethink their budgets, and guess where corporations look first when they have to stay alive? Charitable contributions.
Load o'bunk. Don't be hypocritical...I'm pretty certain you've downloaded MP3's before. And as the saying goes, steal a dollar or a million, which is worse? At least with a million there's real value....
Load o'bunk. Don't be hypocritical...I'm pretty certain you've downloaded MP3's before. And as the saying goes, steal a dollar or a million, which is worse? At least with a million there's real value....
I agree with Shiftkitty on this one. And before you ask, all the mp3s I have are ripped directly from CD's that I have the actual disc. I don't buy into the whole "stealing to stick it to teh evil corporations" thing.
Load o'bunk. Don't be hypocritical...I'm pretty certain you've downloaded MP3's before. And as the saying goes, steal a dollar or a million, which is worse? At least with a million there's real value....
Some people are not hypocritical when it comes to stealing. I have never downloaded an MP3. In fact, I have no MP3's whatsoever. So, I think you are making a straw man because you are making assumptions that everybody does some things. In fact, they don't.
Personally, I'm just really sad that I won't be able to buy PDFs of all the remaining legacy 1E and 2E things that I wanted to buy... and there were quite a few still on my list to buy. Now, my choices are to haunt eBay for people selling their old originals (which can be quite expensive) or I'll just have to wait until WoTC figures out a way to make PDFs available again (for which they have no plan).
I'm just not that into 4E enough to buy any of it, and my friends are all pretty much in the 3.5E camp anyway. My friends and I really -hate- what you've done with the 4E Forgotten Realms. And I'm not the kind of person who would torrent things, so that's out. Basically, that just means that WoTC screwed me, a legitimate customer of legacy products, and as such I feel increasingly wedged out of playing D&D. Thanks so much WoTC.
Reduce the demand.
The overwhelming majority of piracy happens for two reasons:
A) Product cost is perceived to be too high
B) Product is too difficult to get via official channels
You need to price your product at a level acceptable to your customers, and you need to make it easy to find and purchase it.
Studies show time and again that the majority of folks will actually prefer to use legitimate channels if the prices are reasonable.
Hoever, prior to them being pulled, the WotC PDFs were literally sometimes 150% to double the prices you could find for some of their PRINTED products.
It is little wonder that so many balk at actually purchasing them.
The accessibility was actually pretty good, so in this case that motivator probably wasn't a factor.
What really needs to happen is the prices for the PDFs need to be reduced, at least by the difference in cost of printing.
It is highly likely that WotC would see a significant upswing in the legit sales of PDFs by doing this, and a notable decrease in pirate activity.
Really, this is an age-old issue. How do you curb undesirable activity? With the Carrot or the Stick.
However, in this case the stick is all but useless. Not because you can't hit anyone with it - because there's so many targets, that it is effectively impossible to hit more than a tiny fraction. The statistical chance that any given violator will see any sort of punishment is vanishingly small.
For the stick to be effective, it must pose a credible threat. And for the vast majority, this simply isn't the case.
So the only remaining option is the carrot.
-karma
Load o'bunk. Don't be hypocritical...I'm pretty certain you've downloaded MP3's before. And as the saying goes, steal a dollar or a million, which is worse? At least with a million there's real value....
I feel sorry for you. I pity that you feel that everyone is out to steal what they can. I hope you’ll eventually meet enough people for whom things like “honor” and “integrity” are more than mere antiquated notions that must be swept aside so that greed and selfishness can take their place. As for me, I would invite you to my home to comb my computer, my CDs, and anything else. I would challenge you to find even one illegal file.
This seems appropriate:
You've got to stand for something
I'm kind of ghosting this thread - and i found this video hilarious when it came to the 9 year old boy being offered a joint from a 30 year old man.
It is also kind of ironic that you linked to a channel where piracy abounds.
This thread is full of paladins.
There's two extremes to the piracy debate.
On one end you have two kinds of people. Those who never buy a CD or a book or anything whatsoever anymore - because they can easily just get it off the net. Also there's the person who in a work place is the source for a list of movies they'll happily burn you for a small fee (5 bucks a disc) or something.
There are those who believe and see piracy as a threat to the artist and refuse to ever partake in piracy. This is honorable, as artists need to eat and have a warm place to occasionally sleep between bouts of creation.
I'm in the middle, where my piracy will lead to me supporting the artist. The majority of music I downloaded four years ago is now in purchased hard copy form collecting dust on my shelf. The music I recently downloaded is slowly beckoning my wallet. I already spent the last few dollars of my paycheck on music that I wish I downloaded so I could have quickly deleted it. I can't afford toilet paper right now (too bad i couldn't download it lolz)
Piracy is a threat to artists, but it can't be stopped. I don't know what the magic solution is. The extreme pirates who never support need to stop or be stopped.
I know of a band who usually would be carried in stores and basically isn't now - because distributors are now mainly stocking shelves with the big names. Piracy is really starting to hit the smaller artists.
In regards to D&D, as easily it would be for me to grab certain items - i still haven't even dared to even look at the PHB2 at in the store, or read much about it on here - until i can afford to take it home and make love to it on my couch.
I'm kind of ghosting this thread - and i found this video hilarious when it came to the 9 year old boy being offered a joint from a 30 year old man.
It is also kind of ironic that you linked to a channel where piracy abounds.
This thread is full of paladins.
There's two extremes to the piracy debate.
On one end you have two kinds of people. Those who never buy a CD or a book or anything whatsoever anymore - because they can easily just get it off the net. Also there's the person who in a work place is the source for a list of movies they'll happily burn you for a small fee (5 bucks a disc) or something.
There are those who believe and see piracy as a threat to the artist and refuse to ever partake in piracy. This is honorable, as artists need to eat and have a warm place to occasionally sleep between bouts of creation.
I'm in the middle, where my piracy will lead to me supporting the artist. The majority of music I downloaded four years ago is now in purchased hard copy form collecting dust on my shelf. The music I recently downloaded is slowly beckoning my wallet. I already spent the last few dollars of my paycheck on music that I wish I downloaded so I could have quickly deleted it. I can't afford toilet paper right now (too bad i couldn't download it lolz)
Piracy is a threat to artists, but it can't be stopped. I don't know what the magic solution is. The extreme pirates who never support need to stop or be stopped.
I know of a band who usually would be carried in stores and basically isn't now - because distributors are now mainly stocking shelves with the big names. Piracy is really starting to hit the smaller artists.
In regards to D&D, as easily it would be for me to grab certain items - i still haven't even dared to even look at the PHB2 at in the store, or read much about it on here - until i can afford to take it home and make love to it on my couch.
You do make a good point.
However, with respect to music, I am not exactly sure what the laws are and to what degree such artists may or may not wish it to be done with older tracks which would keep buzz going. So, I am not sure at what point that crosses over to illegal from legal or what artists prefer. Perhaps I should try to send Aaron Tippin an email and ask. I wonder if he will answer.
Edit note:
Here is Aaron Tippin's YouTube site:
Aaron Tippin
'you've got to stand for something' is listed as a favorite but when I tried to view it I received a message that it is not available in my country (the U.S.) so I believe my posting it was improper. I have removed it laready.
Thankyou for pointing out to me something I probably should have been aware of. Now, I need to check and see if I have made any more improper links and remove them.
But, once again, thankyou for the pointer.
RUMPLESTIX
2. Just because WotC has a right to sue infringers does not mean it is the best course of action for them to take.
3. Letting WotC know where to find piracy may ease your own concience, but it will do nothing to stop piracy. At best, it takes an extra hour or two before the book shows up. But once that first copy is made, it cannot be taken back.
1. Copyright Infrigement is not the same thing as Theft. Equating the two is simple propoganda used to weight Infringement as somehow more harmful and evil than it actually is.
Very true. Going through the US Code (thanks Cornell!), I found the following:
Definition of Criminal Copyright Infringement
Punishment of the crime
So, I picked up this from my study:
The burden of proof is to show how this damaged their commercial distribution of the book and:
(2) Evidence.— For purposes of this subsection, evidence of reproduction or distribution of a copyrighted work, by itself, shall not be sufficient to establish willful infringement of a copyright.
Which means that, even though they bought and placed it on the peer-sharing site, they have to prove that they were willfully working against the copyright. Merely having and posting the file does not mean they are guilty of trying to destroy WotC's commercial success.
I've been discussing the PDF issue and (after being banned for the first time, without warning even, for posting 'whining serves no purpose'! ) people have said Arcane Power was already up for illegal download.
I don't think it actually is. Someone bet me that it'd be out before the books were, but looking around on google (and some of the better known torrent sites), all I'm seeing is autogenerated "fake torrents" to get high results, as well as things which are obvious trojans/viruses/worms/intentionally mislabelled files. Seriously, one site is advertising eight torrents, all of them from 700 - 800 MB - that's the size of a movie. Its pretty obvious that they're either viruses, or mislabelled movies, or movies with viruses in them.
Incidentally, the reason some of these sites are around for so long is because:
1) Torrents aren't illegal. Torrenting copyrighted material without the permission of the copyright holder is. I actually have downloaded a number of things legally through torrents.
2) Some of them are located in countries with poor copyright laws or simply where they won't enforce them.
3) Some of them are in litigation (thepiratebay, for example) but haven't closed down.
But ultimately, if I see someone stealing at a store, it isn't my responsibility to turn them in. And knowing what I know about most people who steal, I wouldn't do so. The last thing I want to do, is create legal trouble for someone who is alreay desperate.
Then you aren't doing your civic duty.
If I pass by you in the alleyway, and see you getting mugged, I have a moral responsiblity to step in or call the cops.
Stealing hurts people. Its a lie to believe otherwise.
Getting that person caught is good, because it means that they'll see they can't get away with it.
Legally there is no grey. Ethically there is. I am sorry, I can't agree with your no sympathy for the criminal crap. If a woman has no food for her children, and steals to feed them, that is totally different from a millionare who doesn't need money, ripping people off. Two different things. The acts are both criminal, but you must account for context. And frankly, I am tired of this rule lawyer attitude that got us into this economic mess in the first place. What america needs now is some freaking compassion. Not this black and white BS.
It is simply a myth that someone would have to steal food to feed their family. In the United States, and indeed anywhere in the developed world, you never, ever need to resort to stealing to avoid starvation. Ever. Period. The end. There are soup kitchens, or you can just go around picking up cans and recycling them to get enough money for food for yourself. There's food stamps and welfare. No one starves in the United States unless they're being abused by someone. If you can move around freely, you will never starve in the developed world, as there is food to be had.
Simply put, no, there's no gray.
For instance: If you report 10 previously unknown piracy sites (as confirmed by CS), you earn a Custom Avatar or Custom Title or something to that extent. I'm sure many posters would feel more inclined to participate if such a program were offered. (Assuming such a system is workable and not abusable, of course.)
This would be hilarious.
The custom title would have to be ninja, though. :D Or maybe make a little Ninja button.
By the way, it's called "sharing", not "stealing". Get it right, please.
Its called stealing.
If you take your neighbor's car without their permission, then lend it to your friend, you committed grand theft auto.
And no, the fact that you copied it changes nothing.
The overwhelming majority of piracy happens for two reasons:
A) Product cost is perceived to be too high
B) Product is too difficult to get via official channels
This is simply untrue.
The overwhelming majority of piracy happens for one reason:
Free is the lowest price there is.
Its just that simple. There's massive, massive music piracy even though it is readily accessible and reasonably priced.
1. Copyright Infrigement is not the same thing as Theft. Equating the two is simple propoganda used to weight Infringement as somehow more harmful and evil than it actually is.
Its not simple propaganda. Its that people don't really understand what it is, so they analogize. Theft isn't a terrible analogy, but its obviously an imperfect one.
Copyright infringement is definitely criminal activity, and the idea that it is somehow less damaging than theft is simply wrong. Seeding a PDF of a book is actually a far, far worse crime than stealing bubblegum from a store.
Which means that, even though they bought and placed it on the peer-sharing site, they have to prove that they were willfully working against the copyright. Merely having and posting the file does not mean they are guilty of trying to destroy WotC's commercial success.
You don't understand what is going on here.
Willful copyright infringement is a type of copyright infringement. It carries more severe penalties, and allows for greater punitive damage. Non-willful copyright infringement is still a crime, its just you won't pay nearly as much in terms of punitive damage (you may pay a lot in damages, though).
However, seeding a PDF of WotC's books in a torrent is fairly likely to constitute willful copyright infringement because it contains a copyright notice.
Its more of an issue like the ORLY owl jpg. Yes, its obviously copyright infringement, but it probably woudln't constitute willful copyright infringement (unless they removed a copyright notice, of course).
Of course not. Not everyone chooses to be a decent person, even in the armed forces. That does not, however, deny that we are taught values that are considered the standard for living in the military.
It does not mean anything and certainly not for this discussion. Values ("thou shall not steal") are also taught in preschool and in church, but it has never kept a lot of people from breaking the rules.
Values aren't some sort of law of nature, though; they're by their nature arbitrary. However, that being said, that doesn't mean that they are random, as values which generate a coherent society tend to endure better than those who don't in a sort of natural selection (though evolution of values is much more Lamarckian than Darwinian in nature). That doesn't mean that just because we have a certain framework as a society that they are perfect, though, and over time we've actually improved it (we're much more inclusive and liberal than we were even a couple decades ago).
MPAA for example has fought them for years. You think Wizards can get them shut down?
The problem isn't finding the sites. The problem is shutting them down.
MPAA for example has fought them for years. You think Wizards can get them shut down?
The MPAA mostly attacks stuff more like Kazaa, though IIRC they've actually shut down a couple torrent sites.
The reason MPAA has so much difficulty is because, as I said previously, P2P software isn't illegal and it has significant legal, non-infringing uses.
The problem comes when your site exists primarily in order to distribute copyrighted materials, as is (arguably) the case with many torrent sites and similar P2P software, ALA Kazaa. But its very difficult to prosecute someone when they don't control the software, the software has significant legal uses (torrenting is very useful for downloading stuff like hakpacks for NWN, as well as some games whose producers allow people to distribute them legally in this manner as freeware or as open-source free software), and the site has absolutely no infringing material on it whatsoever. Indeed, the Pirate Bay only distributes torrents, and their legal claim is that they are like a search engine and aren't responsible for their content (a rather sketchy argument, really).
Values aren't some sort of law of nature, though; they're by their nature arbitrary.
Actually the Golden Rule (the mother of all values) is petty much as natural as they can get. You can find it in any human culture and even all children can easily understand it.
Actually the Golden Rule (the mother of all values) is petty much as natural as they can get. You can find it in any human culture and even all children can easily understand it.
The golden rule however is terribly inadequate in applying to every situation in world filled with diverging goals and interpretations of what exactly what someone would like to have done to themselves
pirate argument one: never sold a painting and NOT because of their values: "im an artist and art shouldnt be like sold - capitalism isnt the heart of art, i borrow - because i dont mind if someone "borrows" from me, my arts for everybody"
exaggerated example above - in the person's mind follows the golden rule
Actually the Golden Rule (the mother of all values) is petty much as natural as they can get. You can find it in any human culture and even all children can easily understand it.
Well, it is natural insofar that reciprocal altruism is a major way in which altruism evolved, but cheating reciprocal altruism is one of the ways to thrive.
Its not a "natural law" or anything. Physics don't say you have to do it, and indeed, living creatures (including people) often benefit by not doing so.
I might also add that the ethic of reciprocity is something of an oversimplification, as few people actually subscribe to it in its absolute form.
Ofcourse there need to be more rules and exceptions that vary over time and with culture. Copyright protection is not so simple because it is a rather young concept compared to protection of physical property.
I live in China and here you can "legally" buy a DVD for about 2 USD at a shop within less than 10 minutes walk from everywhere in the city. If it is morally correct is another question, but I don't know anyone who does not do it because of a moral obligation and I am convinced 99,9% of all people who are talking about "Copyright Infringement = Theft" would also do, dispite whatever they say now.
I wonder what kind of oppinion people like us will have in a 100 years from now. Morals, ethics and standards are always changing. Perhaps they will be laughing about it, shaking their heads in incomprehension. This is ofcourse speculation, but it wouldn't be the first time in history.
"and indeed, living creatures (including people) often benefit by not doing so" You are correct as long as you talk about people as some individuals, but the entire species or socienty (in our case) is suffering on long term in most of these cases.
I'm kind of surprised this site isn't censored by the Chinese government, though, given its content out of the control of their censors.
Its not said directly in the article - but this may be a method that some would want to do to discourage pirating.
China is kind of infamous for being bad about such things though. They get really angry if you screw them in trade, but they're happy to screw everyone else.
I'm kind of surprised this site isn't censored by the Chinese government, though, given its content out of the control of their censors.
In this site your not allowed to talk about politics and religion, sounds like the perfect place for China's people to check things out.
He is doing the wrong thing. Turning the jaws of a large company on the meat of a small person trying to make an extra buck. Sure it is legal for them to do that. Doesn't make it right by any stretch. And I have to question mr. krown's motives for doing so. Interesting they plucked out my original post. In this economy, I can't justify what Mr. Krown is doing.
You really think that a company trying to stop people from stealing its stuff is wrong??
Wow....
Would you go to FLGS and take a copy off the shelf? Would you buy one and take another because 'I already bought one so this one's okay'? I hope not.
Please clearly point out the difference if this happens on the internet.
It is one thing to launch this 'electronic initiative' with everything online with their digital Dragon and Dungeon Mags, the online subscription and rules compendium. I know several gamers online that have invested in tablet PCs (a Kindle2 or a laptop) to access their books electronicly. This leaves many who spent the hundreds of dollars to have any and all books handy with a nasty taste. It seems like this is a major contradiction in business plan.
I know there is two sides to this story- they are protecting themselves from piracy. But I got news for them... its going to happen anyway. you know there is some nerd who has nothing better to do than rip the covers off the latest D&D book and insert it into a document feeder and voila- an electronic version of the whatever the F***.
They can all bite me! AM I THE ONLY ONE ANGRY?
My group and I will be playing PATHFINDER from now on.
They can all bite me! AM I THE ONLY ONE ANGRY?
No you are not. You are however a week late for this whole debate.
So I just got word that WOTC is suspending its sales of pdfs indefinitely. We all probably herd that Paizo was no longer going to be selling WOTC pdfs, but now it seems like that are going several steps further. Screw WOTC!!!
It is one thing to launch this 'electronic initiative' with everything online with their digital Dragon and Dungeon Mags, the online subscription and rules compendium. I know several gamers online that have invested in tablet PCs (a Kindle2 or a laptop) to access their books electronicly. This leaves many who spent the hundreds of dollars to have any and all books handy with a nasty taste. It seems like this is a major contradiction in business plan.
I know there is two sides to this story- they are protecting themselves from piracy. But I got news for them... its going to happen anyway. you know there is some nerd who has nothing better to do than rip the covers off the latest D&D book and insert it into a document feeder and voila- an electronic version of the whatever the F***.
They can all bite me! AM I THE ONLY ONE ANGRY?
My group and I will be playing PATHFINDER from now on.
No not at all. Lots of us are angry, there are several mega-threads about it. I'm not going to stop playing 4e because of it, but I have stopped purchasing WotC's books until they get their act together, which at the rate their going might be a very long time. But there's other publishers doing 4e products. I hear Goodman's doing good stuff, and there's a 4e update to Swords & Sorcery's Creature Collection out now, and a Relics & Rituals update in the works. Besides, between the material I have now, and stuff that I'm going to update to 4e on my own, I have enough gaming stuff for years to come. I won't stop playing the game I like on their account, I'll just choose my purchases more carefully.
Being in the military has nothing to do with having "good" values, nor does being religious, going to school, ect. (though some of them, like going to school, do correlate positively) Of course, they are affected by your environment, but not necessarily in the way you'd expect.
Are you claiming the ten commandments are not a value system? You seem to be implying that people learn values from school and not from religious teachings which is maybe the most backwards thing I have ever read in my life.
Values aren't some sort of law of nature, though; they're by their nature arbitrary.
This is relevant to the thread so I ask. How is "thou shall not steal" arbitrary? Are you implying that the US legal code and copyright laws protection of property ownership is arbitrary? WOTC worked hard to produce product that we can buy should we choose and in buying this product we help the creators of said work feed themselves their families and pay the bills so that they can maybe produce more products for us to buy.
Every time someone pirates a product the people who actually work hard creating it are denied money to feed and cloth themselves and they're families and could find themselves out of a job if the company stops turning a profit denying them their livelihood and us more product.
Theft is wrong and regardless of how people try to twist it denying a person or company the ability to earn money for his/her work is a form of theft. The fact that the thief may also be profiting on the hard work of another is even worse.
Are you claiming the ten commandments are not a value system?
No, they are a set of laws, not values. If you can not seperate the two in your mind, than you are lost to debate.
You seem to be implying that people learn values from school and not from religious teachings which is maybe the most backwards thing I have ever read in my life.
TD did not say that values come from school, quite the opposite in fact. Values come from the self, not some external authority; not ANY external authority.
No you are not. You are however a week late for this whole debate.
OH SORRY!!! I guess since I'm a week late I can't have an opinion or vent!!!
No not at all. Lots of us are angry, there are several mega-threads about it. I'm not going to stop playing 4e because of it, but I have stopped purchasing WotC's books until they get their act together, which at the rate their going might be a very long time. But there's other publishers doing 4e products. I hear Goodman's doing good stuff, and there's a 4e update to Swords & Sorcery's Creature Collection out now, and a Relics & Rituals update in the works. Besides, between the material I have now, and stuff that I'm going to update to 4e on my own, I have enough gaming stuff for years to come. I won't stop playing the game I like on their account, I'll just choose my purchases more carefully.
Its WOTC's backwards way of this trek into the digital age. they are losing customers. I'll look into these 3rd party products, but after the 3rd edition- 3rd party CRAP... I'll be skeptical at best.
OH SORRY!!! I guess since I'm a week late I can't have an opinion or vent!!!
There is nothing wrong with venting, but you basically ignored the content of the entire thread (filled with others - including myself - expressing anger) by inserting your rhetorical.
There is nothing wrong with venting, but you basically ignored the content of the entire thread (filled with others - including myself - expressing anger) by inserting your rhetorical.
What ever happened to the power of the people? The more voices that express their displeasure the more likely for change in our favor. Guess I cannot add my voice to the thread. Don't want to take away wyrddwalker's thunder!!!!!
Are you claiming the ten commandments are not a value system? You seem to be implying that people learn values from school and not from religious teachings which is maybe the most backwards thing I have ever read in my life.
Its not backwards at all. People take in values from their social environment; the two environments children are most exposed to today is their home environment and their school environment, so it is likely those are the two which will have the greatest influence. And while schools do not "teach" values per say, they certainly promote certain values.
Secondly, the ten commandments are a part of a few religions' value systems. They do not constitute a value system in and of themselves.
Thirdly, I specified a "good" values system. If you look at crime statistics, educated folk are less likely to commit crimes, and atheists are less likely to commit crimes; the latter group makes up an almost-negligable portion of the prison population.
However, this is (mostly) not because religion causes crime, but rather because other factors which correlate with religiousity also correlate with crime.
This is relevant to the thread so I ask. How is "thou shall not steal" arbitrary? Are you implying that the US legal code and copyright laws protection of property ownership is arbitrary?
Because you don't understand what I'm saying.
They're arbitrary because there are no physical laws which say "thou shalt not steal". Indeed, stealing can be an evolutionarily successful strategy; see coocoos, for example. Indeed, it is probable our intelligence evolved in party in order to exploit the reciprocal altruism of others, and in order to prevent other people from taking advantage of our own recriprocal altruistic system.
Thou shalt not steal is arbitrary in the sense that it is a guideline, not something which is physically impossible to do. We have decided that we will punish people who do so, and in exchange our own property is protected. If we lived in a society without the concept of personal property, the proscription against stealing would be meaningless. This isn't to say such a society is a good thing (I think it'd suck, personally, and am borne out by the failure of communism), but thou shalt not steal is a rule we made up and expect others to follow, in exchange for their things being protected.
Theft is wrong and regardless of how people try to twist it denying a person or company the ability to earn money for his/her work is a form of theft. The fact that the thief may also be profiting on the hard work of another is even worse.
I never said piracy was okay. I personally believe that from the standpoint of maximizing our society, capitalism (with certain controls in order to keep the system as meritocratic as possible) is an acceptable way of distributing materials. Thieves undermine the ability to apportion materials properly according to merit, which is what capitalism is ultimately meant to do.
What ever happened to the power of the people? The more voices that express their displeasure the more likely for change in our favor. Guess I cannot add my voice to the thread. Don't want to take away wyrddwalker's thunder!!!!!
Fighter, I understand your anger but your venting would be offtopic for this thread. Well, more offtopic than it's heading anyway... Might I direct you to one of the mega-threads that are discussing the PDF sales decision.
WotC halts sales/downloads from rpgnow.com part 2
Fighter, I understand your anger but your venting would be offtopic for this thread. Well, more offtopic than it's heading anyway... Might I direct you to one of the mega-threads that are discussing the PDF sales decision.
WotC halts sales/downloads from rpgnow.com part 2
Helpful, thanks.
Its WOTC's backwards way of this trek into the digital age. they are losing customers. I'll look into these 3rd party products, but after the 3rd edition- 3rd party CRAP... I'll be skeptical at best.
There were some gems to be found, you just had to know where to look. Once I figured out which companies were garbage and which weren't, I found a lot of 3pp products that blew WotC's out of the water.
I'm probably going to pick up the new Creature Collection. The 3e CC was actually the first 3e book I owned, and it was awesome. I can't wait for them to do Relics & Rituals.
EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread there
Its WOTC's backwards way of this trek into the digital age. they are losing customers. I'll look into these 3rd party products, but after the 3rd edition- 3rd party CRAP... I'll be skeptical at best.
Well, its true: no one does it as well as WotC.
Do you really think it is so important to register your displeasure with WotC that you end up spending money on things you won't enjoy as much? Doesn't seem very logical to me, as you're punishing yourself more than you're punishing them.
Remember, if you REALLY feel cheesed off, and you consider the other products on the market to be bad, you can always either make your own game, or you can simply eschew RPGs for a while.