Gamer_Zer0;15582960 wrote:
Of course, given the fact that they're covered by the age requirement gimmick, I don't really see that there's any particular reason to get rid of it (aside from the added moderation necessary), and as the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
That said, if it goes, it goes. Maybe the need for added moderation is precisely the problem.
From what I know, 4th edition is ramping up the "high fantasy" tone even further to make it more kid-friendly, and while nobody is required to conform to this and they can make the game as dark as they like...well. You could also take happy, fun dolls designed for young children and imagine them in a dark and gritty environment filled with drugs and sex and evil zombies out for blood, but that doesn't mean the creators of the Cabbage Patch Kids are going to (or should) put a Mature subsection up on their forum. In light of that, perhaps they simply weighed the trouble of keeping it up to scratch against the actual need to have it and found it wanting. Lord knows they certainly don't need to have to deal with the tears and blood and wailing that resulted from the first time they cleaned the place up any more than once.
Either way, I'm not bothered.
And so yeah - it's time for it to go, I think. Or time for the forum-keepers to reevaluate what they consider "explicit" or "mature" ...
And no, I'm not arguing for being able to post naked pictures (though some of you might claim I am). I'm arguing for being able to link to Wikipedia and not be at risk of being warned. I'm arguing for being able to link to the BoVD or Heroes of Horror without risk of being warned.
There is valid reason for discussion on certain topics that shouldn't necessarily be in the general realm of the forums.
There can be mature, legitimate discussions on sex, slavery, violence, evil, and drugs. All still fit in the PG13 rating, but are still ify in mixed company. Without the Mature Board (which desperately needs a re-name imo), these threads will leek into the general community, will be harder to moderate and will cause quite a bit of disruption as the personal opinions of whoever is moderating the boards - for conduct or editorially play in and clash with each other. Dox and I game together weekly and we can attest that our comfort level with certain topics is drastically different. Much better to keep the main forums "clean" and put those sensitive subjects away for the folks who enjoy that.
I was thinking though that to a certain degree, maybe some of it could combine with the horror board, but that only accounts for part of the discussion. The rest still needs a home.
The topics and conversations will happen, regardless of the reorganization. The question is where do we want them?
I've asked for advice on a number of things there that I definitely wouldn't want a kid to read. Just to name a few.
- How to play out an encounter where the PCs walk in on their maid about to stab one of the PCs while he was sleeping, only to find out that he had coerced her into 'relations' several times over the past months.
- The morality of working with a vampire who was clearly evil (and the prospects of redemption didn't look good either) because she was the only one who could stop the suffering you caused another.
- How to handle an encounter where the PCs track one of four of the BBEGs down to a hidden home in the hills where shes basically taking a day off with her kids (do they kill her while she's vulnerable but right in front of her children or do they pretend that they were never there, or something else)
- There was even a time several years ago when I was having problems with sexual tension between two lesbians was entering the game and was making everyone else uncomfortable. The advice I got in the mature forums was absolutely invaluable with dealing with that. (Well technically that was back before there was only one mature forum, back when there was the BoED and BoVD and other mature topics forums).
I did my best to clean the above up so that it doesn't get me in trouble, but the very fact that I had to do that is an argument for keeping the mature forums (or some facsimile.)
Personally what I can see happening if the forums go down is that people will ask things they are unsure of on separate accounts from their main. And that just opens the way for flame wars and irresponsibility. That and it will just **** some of the community of in general, and while it may not be a budget breaker for Wizards, they should be trying to earn all the brownie points they can given that they are ******* off another portion with 4e. (please don't let that comment derail the thread *crosses fingers*)
Edit: Never noticed that was censored. Can't believe I've never used the term ****** off on the forums before.
If nothing else the Mature forums give hte less mature a place to vent, without spreading elsewhere.
I've always thought that the mature forums need a immature sub forum. We can put the trash threads there (*Cough* Humanoid Women *Cough*)
Keep it, if for no other reason than to clean the trash off the regular sidewalks.
Keep the best, ban the rest.
And if you find yourself scanning the front page of threads and thinking, "Why would anyone ever need to talk about that?" then take an inward look at your own prudishness and realize that there are very legitimate, mature discussions that may have a real place in someone else's game.
I take issue in general when people voice strong opinions about something they don't use. If you're not a regular of those boards or that style of gameplay, then I personally don't feel you have the right to say "shut it down".
I don't play Duel Masters. It would be like me going to a discussion about the viability of that area and saying, "That's just dumb. I don't play it therefore no one should. Shut it all down."
(that is a general "you", and yes, I'm aware that there are posts in this thread by people who do frequent that board, and I appreciate their opinion, yay or nay.)
*
As for the actual topic, I really can't add to what's been said. The forum has a very specific purpose and covers specific material.
Many of the most intelligent, insightful and above all, human discussions I have seen or been a part of on these forums have been courtesy of the Mature Boards.
Honestly, no other part of this forum does anywhere close to as good a job of bringing the human element to characters that would otherwise be a list of stats and items on a few sheets of paper.
Many of the things that bring characters to life are deemed "Mature" and it is in exploring these topics that we truly explore and come to understand, the characters and social systems we create as players and DM's
- What type of discussions are okay for the mature forum but not for the rest of the forums? Any examples?
- Does or should the mature forums have a different code of conduct than the other forums?
- What is the goal of the mature forums?
To be completely honest, I don't think there's much chance of a case being made that'd convince us (or at least me) to want to keep the mature forums. I'm willing to hear people out on the subject, however.
I have a couple of questions:
- What type of discussions are okay for the mature forum but not for the rest of the forums? Any examples?
- Does or should the mature forums have a different code of conduct than the other forums?
- What is the goal of the mature forums?
To be completely honest, I don't think there's much chance of a case being made that'd convince us (or at least me) to want to keep the mature forums. I'm willing to hear people out on the subject, however.
Well for one thing, the second sexuality/orientation get mentioned on any other board, it gets booted into the mature boards. What would be your alternative?
- What type of discussions are okay for the mature forum but not for the rest of the forums? Any examples?
Morality. You can discuss this on other forums, but it tends to gets bogged down and the threads turn into 50+ page monstrosities that tend not to happen on the mature board.
- Does or should the mature forums have a different code of conduct than the other forums?
Yes, sort of. The rest of the board is supposed to be kid friendly. The mature board should be for subjects that are not so. If someone repeated shows that they are not capable of mature discussion they should be kicked off that board rather can a banning from all the boards.
- What is the goal of the mature forums?
It should be for adult subjects that you don't want to expose the rest of the boards to, even if they do not violate the code of conduct.
To be completely honest, I don't think there's much chance of a case being made that'd convince us (or at least me) to want to keep the mature forums. I'm willing to hear people out on the subject, however.
OK.
Examples:
[thread=854068]Good, Evil, and D&D[/thread]
[thread=871994]What a paladin should(n't) do?[/thread]
[thread=880964]Mature Topics Project: The Book of Alignment[/thread]
[thread=337518]A questionarre DMs may find useful to give their players.[/thread]
[thread=977427]The Paladins Manifesto[/thread]
Also see the highlighted threads.
Well for one thing, the second sexuality/orientation get mentioned on any other board, it gets booted into the mature boards. What would be your alternative?
I was going to bring that up.
I mean, once, on the General Board, I got accused of trolling for happening to mention that I was gay.
I've learnt not to bring it up now.
But it's still nice to be able to talk about it occasionally.
Well for one thing, the second sexuality/orientation get mentioned on any other board, it gets booted into the mature boards. What would be your alternative?
If it's a CoC violation, WizOs will handle it's removal. If it's an editorial violation, only CM or a VCL can ask that a thread or post be moved. So unless our policy is being broken someplace, things shouldn't be working as you suggest.
There have been discussions about the historical significane of harems, prostitutes and geishas that would be difficult to conduct openly in a forum where children might be present.
Graphic discussions about human sacrifice and rules that might encourage such practices.
There have been some discussions of rules found in third-party books of mature content, as well as the Book of Vile Darkness, which is absolutely inappropriate for younger players. There's no reason those same topics would not be discussed when 4th edition is released.
Morality. You can discuss this on other forums, but it tends to gets bogged down and the threads turn into 50+ page monstrosities that tend not to happen on the mature board.
We can have discussions about morality on our forums. I don't think it should be restricted to a forum marked mature.
Yes, sort of. The rest of the board is supposed to be kid friendly. The mature board should be for subjects that are not so. If someone repeated shows that they are not capable of mature discussion they should be kicked off that board rather can a banning from all the boards.
All of our forums should be family friendly. We don't really have some sections that are friendlier than others, and in fact, we may be prevented from doing that or implying that without meeting certain standards. I'd have to check into that aspect.
It should be for adult subjects that you don't want to expose the rest of the boards to, even if they do not violate the code of conduct.
We shouldn't have anything on the forums that we don't want people exposed to. We will likely have forums where people can discuss religion, politics, and anything else that isn't illegal, but that's just a question of what's on-topic for which forum, not whether or not something is allowed.
It'd be easier if you listed topics as examples, rather than threads. I'm not sure when I'll have the time to read through them all.
I've seen discussions of alignment and cannibalism which would be inappropriate for a board where pre-teens might be expected to venture, but is absolutely appropriate for a game being played by adults.
We don't have shades of grey with regards to the code of conduct. If something is a violation, it will be removed. If it's not, then editorially, we just find where it's most on-topic. We really can't restrict forums based on age or anything else, because it's impossible to enforce with any certainty.
There have been discussions about the historical significane of harems, prostitutes and geishas that would be difficult to conduct openly in a forum where children might be present.
Same issue here. If it's something we're not comfortable with all of our community members seeing, we shouldn't have it on our forums at all.
Graphic discussions about human sacrifice and rules that might encourage such practices.
If it's graphic enough to violate the CoC, then it shouldn't be on our forums.
There have been some discussions of rules found in third-party books of mature content, as well as the Book of Vile Darkness, which is absolutely inappropriate for younger players. There's no reason those same topics would not be discussed when 4th edition is released.
Depending on what you mean by "mature content", it's something that shouldn't be on our forums if it isn't acceptable.
If there are some topics that people think would be off-topic for other areas, but on-topic for a different forum, we can create the appropriate forum. I definitely don't think it should be called Mature. And I don't think we need a forum where the rules are more lax than other areas.
We can have discussions about morality on our forums. I don't think it should be restricted to a forum marked mature.
I didn't say that they should be restricted to the mature forums. Only that the quality of the responses is usually different.
All of our forums should be family friendly. We don't really have some sections that are friendlier than others, and in fact, we may be prevented from doing that or implying that without meeting certain standards. I'd have to check into that aspect.
As it is both the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness are labeled "Warning: Content is intended for mature audiences only." and the mature boards where created to discuss these two books. As it is the matures boards are not meant for stuff that is for younger audiences.
We shouldn't have anything on the forums that we don't want people exposed to. We will likely have forums where people can discuss religion, politics, and anything else that isn't illegal, but that's just a question of what's on-topic for which forum, not whether or not something is allowed.
Ideally this would work. However it doesn't. Many cannot simply handle some subjects.
It'd be easier if you listed topics as examples, rather than threads. I'm not sure when I'll have the time to read through them all.
Ok let me check the Book of Vile Darkness for a few.
Cannibalism
Masochism
Self-Mutilation
Sadism
Psychopathy
Necrophilia
Bestiality
Alcoholism/Drug Addiction
Those are literally strait out of the book. Torture, plague spreading, soul harvesting, selling yourself to fiends are also subject that are covered in the Book of Vile Darkness and can be managed to be discussed without breaking the code of conduct. Obviously some areas on these cannot be discussed, but others can. Imagine these topics on other boards.
Now lets try the Book of Exalted Deeds
Sex: not the act, but linked moral implications.
The death penalty
Wow, not as much there. However the questions of right and wrong, morality, the exalted status all tend to run aground on other boards. If you want I can pull up a few paladin threads so you can see how long they can get without any resolution.
If it's graphic enough to violate the CoC, then it shouldn't be on our forums.
You do realize that discussion of Dungeons and Dragons is thus technically in violation of the CoC, right? If you want to be so strict and not allow any relaxation of the rules, the entire core rules are in violation of the following:
Do not use, post, distribute or link to obscene, pornographic, sexually explicit, graphically or gratuitously violent, derogatory, demeaning, malicious, defamatory, abusive, offensive, hateful or discriminatory language or content. This includes "masking" language by using alternative characters/spelling/spacing to get around profanity filters or claims of profanity filter "testing."
And:
Do not promote, plan, glorify or engage in any illegal activity or otherwise make available content that would encourage or provide instructions for a criminal offense. These topics include crimes relating to drugs, drug paraphernalia, ****, solicitation of a minor, computer hacking, and copyright violation.
Seems to me the entire D&D rules involve the slaughter of many lives, the theft of literally tons of materials ....
So literally just by posting about D&D, we're violating the CoC by your definition, Zer0. But to answer your questionnaire...
I have a couple of questions:
- What type of discussions are okay for the mature forum but not for the rest of the forums? Any examples?
Rough situations that are morally challenging, such as the maid being caught trying to stab the PC who was blackmailing her.
- Does or should the mature forums have a different code of conduct than the other forums?
The forum should follow the same rules - but so should the WoTC Homepage. If material is made available on the homepage, it should be allowed on the forum. Of course, I have showed above that even discussion of D&D is technically in violation of the Code of Conduct...
- What is the goal of the mature forums?
To discuss topics very important to adult gamers, without having to worry about ten year olds stumbling upon it.
o be completely honest, I don't think there's much chance of a case being made that'd convince us (or at least me) to want to keep the mature forums. I'm willing to hear people out on the subject, however.
Could you do us a favor and try not to be so blatantly biased? Wasn't there a huge discussion recently about how biased the moderators and powers-that-be are here?
Many will debate me on this, but I see the mature forum almost as an ethics as it applies to D&D forum.
For example to further expand on what the maid topic (can be found Here if you wish to read) was about:
I maid has been stealing small amounts secretly from the characters to finance her becoming an adventurer because she wants to help them. She then gets caught by one of the PCs, instead of turning her in. He uses it to blackmail her into the sack, after a few months of this the PCs walk in on her about to kill him in her sleep. How should that be dealt with? both from a players and DMs Perspective?
I can't really see any forum that really fits into any other forum real well. It may fit into the Whats a DM to do forum. But the problem their is that many people there seem to lack the civility and tact need for a moral debate. A small sub-community has developed around the mature forum, that for the most part I would argue is both more respectful and gives more insightful advice on this kind of thing (as many of them come looking for that kind of thing). I can post an argument on religion in D&D as it pertains or reflects on the real world in the mature forums and there is actually half a chance it won't turn into a flame war right away.
Ultimately if the mature forum disappears you are hurting an sub-group of the community here.
From a purely utilitarian perspective I think keeping the forum makes sense. Given that these type of topics WILL pop up because of the way that many of us play the game; There is only three things you can really do with this.
-You can enforce the vague wording of the CoC in such a way that allows you to lock all threads that are even remotely 'unpleasant' Thus playing Whack'a'Mole. And irritating part of the community.
-You can simply decide they are okay but leave it to the individual choice of the wizOs in the whichever random forum this stuff appears in, thus leaving us confused as to what is and isn't permitted and inviting unnecessary flame wars by having this stuff out in the open. Not to mention the unnecessary strain put on the WizOs staff as a whole.
-Or you can simply keep all this stuff in one little safe corner modded by a given WizO who is up for the task (like Autumn) and everyone is happy. Only risk here is the moral majority might re-target onto D&D again and use the stuff in here against it (but they'd find stuff to use against it regardless).
So I know that doesn't really answer what 'topics' are discussed in the mature forums, but I hope it helps.
You do realize that discussion of Dungeons and Dragons is thus technically in violation of the CoC, right?
I can't debate the interpretation of the code of conduct, that's for our CS department to determine.
Many will debate me on this, but I see the mature forum almost as an ethics as it applies to D&D forum.
Would simply calling it "Ethics in RPGs" solve the problem? My main concern is that people feel there is a different CoC for that forum and that they are able to talk about more explicit topic there than they can on other areas of the forums.
Would simply calling it "Ethics in RPGs" solve the problem? My main concern is that people feel there is a different CoC for that forum and that they are able to talk about more explicit topic there than they can on other areas of the forums.
It might.
Would simply calling it "Ethics in RPGs" solve the problem? My main concern is that people feel there is a different CoC for that forum and that they are able to talk about more explicit topic there than they can on other areas of the forums.
So make the exceptions abundantly clear and keep it under strict and heavy moderation. Hell, make it like Helldump on SomethingAwful where the members themselves can vote to ban someone from Helldump for up to a week. That way if someone is being blatantly idiotic and objectionable, the other members can kick them out.
So make the exceptions abundantly clear and keep it under strict and heavy moderation. Hell, make it like Helldump on SomethingAwful where the members themselves can vote to ban someone from Helldump for up to a week. That way if someone is being blatantly idiotic and objectionable, the other members can kick them out.
Eventually, we'd love to have user run forums and stuff like that on Gleemax. But it's a ways down the road. I agree with that approach overall, however, since it ultimately let's the community police itself.
But for now, WotC is responsible for the forums we create, so until users can create their own forums, we're going to be limited in what we can do.
I have a couple of questions:
- What type of discussions are okay for the mature forum but not for the rest of the forums? Any examples?
- Does or should the mature forums have a different code of conduct than the other forums?
- What is the goal of the mature forums?
To be completely honest, I don't think there's much chance of a case being made that'd convince us (or at least me) to want to keep the mature forums. I'm willing to hear people out on the subject, however.
I really feel I addressed these points in my first post:
I obviously disagree with this decision.
There is valid reason for discussion on certain topics that shouldn't necessarily be in the general realm of the forums.
There can be mature, legitimate discussions on sex, slavery, violence, evil, and drugs.
These are the topics most often seen on the Mature Boards, as well as the topics listed from the BoVD. I 100% agree the forum could use a name change, but Ethics in Gaming doesn't cover it-- that would get all of the alignment threads, which is about 1/3 of the total threads, but not the rest. Maybe something along the lines of Vile Darkness?
...All still fit in the PG13 rating, but are still ify in mixed company....
I.E.- the boards follow the exact same Code of Conduct.
Without the Mature Board (which desperately needs a re-name imo), these threads will leek into the general community, will be harder to moderate and will cause quite a bit of disruption as the personal opinions of whoever is moderating the boards - for conduct or editorially play in and clash with each other. Dox and I game together weekly and we can attest that our comfort level with certain topics is drastically different. Much better to keep the main forums "clean" and put those sensitive subjects away for the folks who enjoy that.
This is the goal and purpose of the board. Yes, all of the boards are PG13, but not really. They are treated much more like PG boards, just because once you move into PG13 territory, there is so much more controversy. The CoC says no graphic descriptions. Well, what is graphic to you and what is graphic to me could be very different.
But besides the Code of Conduct, I think the mature boards exemplify the grey area in editorial moderation. Editorially, do we really want multiple threads above slavery or cannabilism on the main forums? Technically they are absolutely fine- they don't violate the CoC and lets say they are legitimate discussions. But is that what we want the boards in general associated with? Is it what WotC wants itself associated with?
I am not at all phased by those types of discussions, but many people are. It's sort of like feeling out someone before you know what sort of conversations you can have with them without offending them. I know exactly which of my friends I can talk about nudity with and which would blush if I brought it up.
That is the goal of that board- to have a place where the topics you don't necessarily talk about in mixed company go-- but the ones that still fall into the CAW (Code of Conduct as Written).
- We can't ask CS to enforce the CoC any more or less in this or any other forum, so it has to be uniform.
- We cannot restrict the forum by age (or any other factor).
- We should not call it mature nor infer in any way that it is for people over a certain age, or of Rated R, Rated X, Triple X etc in nature.
Are any of those three points deal breakers for the proposed new forum that will replace Mature? Would any of them prevent that forum from working, and if so, which one? And Why?
Sounds like we're mostly in agreement. We want a forum where sensitive subjects such as sex, slavery, violence, evil, and drugs can be discussed. I'm sure we can come up with a forum that can hold those discussions. Can we came up with a name and description that addresses these concerns?
- We can't ask CS to enforce the CoC any more or less in this or any other forum, so it has to be uniform.
- We cannot restrict the forum by age (or any other factor).
- We should not call it mature nor infer in any way that it is for people over a certain age, or of Rated R, Rated X, Triple X etc in nature.
Are any of those three points deal breakers for the proposed new forum that will replace Mature? Would any of them prevent that forum from working, and if so, which one? And Why?
The Mature Board has always been filtered by age. Unless your age is 18+ and in profile it's invisible. You cant see it let alone post to it. What has changed other than possibly the release of 4e (and the attempts to make it more youth friendly) that would change that now? And if it cant be filtered by age or some other factor, then you'll be making it pointless. You go to the Mature Boards to discuss topics with other adult players you don't want to talk about in front of minors. If we can discuss slavery, ****, or druids having sex with badgers in the other boards we don't need a Mature board. If you don't want us discussing them on the other boards, you need a mature board, or a lot of mods willing to shut down anyone who says something that can conceivably not be said in front of a 10 year old. Which means alienating players. Roleplaying stores have never been kid friendly. At least none I've ever been too. Most gamers I know are adults, except some kids that are drifting into it from card gaming or video gaming. If you want to appeal to a kid audience from now on in order to keep the hobby going (which I understand) simply just ban all discussion of anything even remotely controversial and give us free reign to do it elsewhere. If you want to keep the adult players (and their money) give them a place to chat with each other.
So, come June, the "Mature" boards would now be open to all members regardless of age. Which means they aren't really "Mature", and a new name for them is needed.
Sounds like we're mostly in agreement. We want a forum where sensitive subjects such as sex, slavery, violence, evil, and drugs can be discussed. I'm sure we can come up with a forum that can hold those discussions. Can we came up with a name and description that addresses these concerns?
- We cannot restrict the forum by age (or any other factor).
- We should not call it mature nor infer in any way that it is for people over a certain age, or of Rated R, Rated X, Triple X etc in nature.
Even going by film classifications, that becomes practically impossible. Under those rules, any discussion beyond surface depth (and thanks to the filters, typing 'boop' a lot) can't be done in my opinion.
I personally think that in D&D, as in everything, you can't have everything open to everyone. Look at the example of a mall. You may have at one end of the mall a toy store, but at the other end, a pub or bar (yes, this is a slightly odd mall). would you let the childen in the bar, although you'd allow them in the mall itself?
If you're going to let young children feasibly have access to these boards, I feel the tone will be completely different to the more mature topics in the Mature boards, such as the two subjects are linked only tenuously.
Sounds like we're mostly in agreement. We want a forum where sensitive subjects such as sex, slavery, violence, evil, and drugs can be discussed. I'm sure we can come up with a forum that can hold those discussions. Can we came up with a name and description that addresses these concerns?
- We can't ask CS to enforce the CoC any more or less in this or any other forum, so it has to be uniform.
- We cannot restrict the forum by age (or any other factor).
- We should not call it mature nor infer in any way that it is for people over a certain age, or of Rated R, Rated X, Triple X etc in nature.
Are any of those three points deal breakers for the proposed new forum that will replace Mature? Would any of them prevent that forum from working, and if so, which one? And Why?
Any prospective mature forum could be more like Astrid's Parlor. That is;
- Its moderated just like any other Wizards Community forum, no more, no less, just with a specific goal/purpose in mind.
- Astrid's serves as a place for female gamers to converse. That's its utlimate purpose (as I understand it); its unrestricted by the factors of age or sex. A mature fourm could be handled in similar fashion, yes?
- As far as the last point, its easy enough to call the prospective forum something other than mature (as has been noted earlier in this thread). Its open to debate, but that's the easy part ;).
I don't think any of G0's points are deal-breakers. A mature forum can work under them because Astrid's already operates under those same points. Please note: I've never actually visited Astrid's, so please correct me if I'm assuming wrong on how it actually works ;).
Just throwing my few coppers in.
Sounds like we're mostly in agreement. We want a forum where sensitive subjects such as sex, slavery, violence, evil, and drugs can be discussed. I'm sure we can come up with a forum that can hold those discussions. Can we came up with a name and description that addresses these concerns?
or, if you don't like that...
"The Dark Side of the Dice" (or just "The Dark Side")
"Monsters of the Id" (Forbidden Planet reference!)
"Pushing the Envelope"
If you can find it on the WoTC Home page, why is it a CoC violation to post it on the WoTC forum? A good example? Posting the link to the Book of Vile Darkness art gallery is currently a CoC violation. Posting the link to the Heroes of Horror art gallery is currently a CoC violation ... posting a link to the Libris Mortis art gallery is currently a CoC violation ...
And the fun part? No legitimate reason can be given.
Sounds like we're mostly in agreement. We want a forum where sensitive subjects such as sex, slavery, violence, evil, and drugs can be discussed. I'm sure we can come up with a forum that can hold those discussions. Can we came up with a name and description that addresses these concerns?
- We can't ask CS to enforce the CoC any more or less in this or any other forum, so it has to be uniform.
- We cannot restrict the forum by age (or any other factor).
- We should not call it mature nor infer in any way that it is for people over a certain age, or of Rated R, Rated X, Triple X etc in nature.
Are any of those three points deal breakers for the proposed new forum that will replace Mature? Would any of them prevent that forum from working, and if so, which one? And Why?
I'm in absolute agreement on this and don't see any as a deal breaker at all.
I'm still thinking the word Vile summarizes it and lets you know what's in there... Vice for the Vile? Go totally original and just call it Vile Darkness?
The only thing that would change is that it would be open to everyone. Right now it's 17+, but I think this hit the nail on the head:
Any prospective mature forum could be more like Astrid's Parlor. That is;
- Its moderated just like any other Wizards Community forum, no more, no less, just with a specific goal/purpose in mind.
The difference in "moderation" would be one purley editorial. While some may report a post for "bad taste" as they identify it, this is a safe haven for those more sensitive subjects. My feeling is that the forum should just have a clear guideline as to what is and isn't acceptable stickied so even for CS, if something is reported that doesn't meet the definition of gratuitous, it should be left. If it is reported to CM, the FL's and VCL's can go by the guidelines.
Overall, this should truly be PG13, as in, we can't think "but a small child may see this!" for the threads there. We shouldn't think that for the entirely of the boards, but we do all the time. It should be clear that there may be sensitive subjects discussed on that board and it's not our fault of an 8 year old stumbles onto a discussion that is beyond his years.
I will hold firm that whatever it is created, it should be allowed to have content from the WoTC homepage posted on it.... posting a link to the Libris Mortis art gallery is currently a CoC violation
I would agree with this... I think that if we are truly going to have it moderated like every other board, regulations can't be more lax or more harsh. The CoC states nothing gratuitous. But let's forget CS and just talk editorially-- PG13 says "More than brief nudity will require at least a PG-13 rating, but such nudity in a PG-13 rated motion picture generally will not be sexually oriented." Sounds like linking to WotC's own material is ok by that definition...Though I want to point out that images are not the main purpose of the board- not even in the top 5 purposes.
"Polyhedral Vice"
or, if you don't like that...
"The Dark Side of the Dice" (or just "The Dark Side")
"Monsters of the Id" (Forbidden Planet reference!)
"Pushing the Envelope"
Of these, I like "Monsters of the Id" the best.
I will hold firm that whatever it is created, it should be allowed to have content from the WoTC homepage posted on it.
If you can find it on the WoTC Home page, why is it a CoC violation to post it on the WoTC forum? A good example? Posting the link to the Book of Vile Darkness art gallery is currently a CoC violation. Posting the link to the Heroes of Horror art gallery is currently a CoC violation ... posting a link to the Libris Mortis art gallery is currently a CoC violation ...
I agree. I think it's ridiculous that posting an image from WotC's art gallery can garner somebody a warning.
- We can't ask CS to enforce the CoC any more or less in this or any other forum, so it has to be uniform.
- We cannot restrict the forum by age (or any other factor).
- We should not call it mature nor infer in any way that it is for people over a certain age, or of Rated R, Rated X, Triple X etc in nature.
Are any of those three points deal breakers for the proposed new forum that will replace Mature? Would any of them prevent that forum from working, and if so, which one? And Why?
In my opinion, you can meet these three conditions and still have a (renamed) mature forum.
Follow-up question: Is the general tenor of the boards still "PG-13" or has that changed? (keeping in mind that it isn't exactly PG-13, since you can say the f-word in a PG-13 movie)
Where exactly IS the mature forum?
Dumb question, but I've been wondering for a while.
Where exactly IS the mature forum?
[forum=126]Here[/forum], under the "D&D Styles" section. If your birthday isn't in your profile (and you aren't at least 17) you can't see the forum at all, even in the forum list.
If you go to your profile and add your birthday, you'll need to wait until after midnight to gain access; the forum access is updated every evening around midnight.
or, if you don't like that...
"The Dark Side of the Dice" (or just "The Dark Side")
"Monsters of the Id" (Forbidden Planet reference!)
"Pushing the Envelope"
I would go with Dark Fantasy (since that is essentially what it is), or second The Dark Side if you're concerned about the "fantasy" connotations (which would be pretty silly
Eventually, we'd love to have user run forums and stuff like that on Gleemax. But it's a ways down the road. I agree with that approach overall, however, since it ultimately let's the community police itself.
But for now, WotC is responsible for the forums we create, so until users can create their own forums, we're going to be limited in what we can do.
That kind of attitude sounds like that of an American't, not an American. WotC has to trust its own forum members or it will only be criticized for having an authoritarian and patronizing attitude (and nobody likes authoritarian or condescending people). Thing is, the community, as a collective, is way, WAY more capable of handling CoC infractions than any individual moderator because not only are they online 24/7, they experience said infractions, and the user himself, first hand and thus know damn well whether that particular person was an actual troll or just a regular member having a bad day.
And bad days don't count. Ever.
- We can't ask CS to enforce the CoC any more or less in this or any other forum, so it has to be uniform.
No it doesn't, and you can. It's WotC's forum and people can either bite the bullet or go away (and this honestly isn't much of a dealbreaker). You also hired the community management to enforce the CoC the way you want them to enforce it. If you tell them to enforce it less harshly in the Mature Topics with clear boundaries (X and Y are still disallowed), they will do so or be fired for not doing their jobs.
- We cannot restrict the forum by age (or any other factor).
You can. Age is a merit factor, unlike race, sex or religion. If you're an idiot you have no business teaching theoretical physics at MIT, no matter how politically correct the administration may be.
- We should not call it mature nor infer in any way that it is for people over a certain age, or of Rated R, Rated X, Triple X etc in nature.
You should. They are forums that serve the sole purpose of facilitating discussions of sensitive matters in a mature fashion, hence Mature Topics. If you're not mature, you do not meet the merit requirement for discussing and thus do not belong there.
Are any of those three points deal breakers for the proposed new forum that will replace Mature? Would any of them prevent that forum from working, and if so, which one? And Why?
They can't be dealbreakers because they don't hold any water when examined.
Logic FTW!
I agree. I think it's ridiculous that posting an image from WotC's art gallery can garner somebody a warning.
Oh, no. It's worse than that. Posting to an article that has thumbnails that contain imagery such as from the Book of Vile Darkness is grounds for a warning.
So posting a link to the Hercules wikipedia article, or even the Leonardo DaVinci article, are grounds for warnings per the current rules.
Peachy.
So then in truth, the actual problem of the situation is in the hypocrisies of the entire organization.
How then can you have a "kid-friendly" website when some of the most mature ideas and products have come from the very organization itself; and then to ban access to the forums of the organization for simply spreading word of the companies product seems more like an attempt to cover up the product entirely as WotC moves in 4E mode and present a better cleaner and faster edition that appeals to "all" audiences.
Allow me to present all parties with these minor facts:
WotC produced the BoED and BoVD.
WotC produced the Open-Gaming License (from which the Book of Erotic Fantasy was created).
WotC hired, paid, and approved of the artwork that was published in those books (and more; excepting the BoEF), and also put the images on their website.
WotC now seeks to reprimand and punish for their MATURE-licensed products spreading.
If it is then that WotC desires to strictly adhere to their CoC, they must then redefine their terms of what DnD exactly is. What DnD is to the company and the consumer.
Is DnD a game with holy paladins riding noble steeds against bitter orcs? Yes it is.
Does DnD not promote the chance for evil characters and the corruption of the "purest" of ideologies? Blackguards for example.
Does DnD not involve death, in the form of killing for any reason, perhaps in multiple reasons?
Don't the players rev up the descriptions of their characters and their actions when they finally warm up to each other?
So then at its very base, DnD is against the CoC.
DnD can be as pure and light-hearted as Star Wars movies, or as gruesome and gory as Sweeny Todd, V for Vendetta, and 300. But even then, DnD depicts violence. Which is always "graphic".
Seriously, the entire issue is moot in that forum members can not influence the powers that be without assistance or a direct line of connection; so what they do with it is what is done with it. But at least we cant point them out for their lack of discretion in remaining intelligent and abiding by their very own views to their very own letters.
What then can be done? Scrap the projects. Fire the workers. And start anew. Otherwise, start communicating with your workers, your moderators, and your consumers alike, else reality and profit care nothing for humanity in which roleplaying always is.
With proper and advance warning, I’d bet far fewer people would be offended than expected, even in an overly politically correct society. Any proposed mature forum is going to be risky but I think its worth taking the chance. Why take a chance? Because D&D has never been a politically correct game anyway; if someone discovers that D&D is less than “family friendly”, well, at least it’s not totally unexpected.
Its never the younger audience you have to worry about with such things, its the parents and grandparents, maybe the occasional US senator ;). In the meantime, let us have our mature forum . . . We can handle it, which I think is the most significant part and should be emphasized up front (in all cases, we are held responsible for our own conduct).
I'm usually not so talky, talky; I don't know what exactly compelled me to jump in on this one ;). For whatever reason, I feel this issue is worth examining. Its not like me though.
I would also like to thank Avock heartily for the fact that at least one mod (Autumn) seems to know what they're talking about with regard to the Mature boards. It is very revealing that GZ even asked us to supply the reason for the Mature boards' existence.
Several people have noted that, despite the fact that Wizards published the BoVD, the boards seem rather touchy about the kind of material it covers. Quite simply, what gives? If you print a book with a mature sticker on, then give us a damn mature forum for it.
I'd also like to apologise for my recent behaviour in the 'Uhhm' thread. Couldn't do it there due to it being locked.
Personally I could see us pulling it off with all of them (not easily, and certainly not happily.) The big thing would be about the way that the mods choose to enforce the purposely vague CoC within them (which I guess could be argued to not be following his can't have different CoC bit.)
As much as I hate people who make stupid 'threats' against the Wizards (as is common with 4e); I would like to point out the wizards should consider itself lucky that the most active D&D forums are there own, many companies are not so lucky. And while I don't think that simply removing the mature forum would be enough to push the community off site, it is a step in that direction. A step taken at the already risky time of the introduction of a new and somewhat controversial system.
I would like to point out the wizards should consider itself lucky that the most active D&D forums are there own, many companies are not so lucky. And while I don't think that simply removing the mature forum would be enough to push the community off site, it is a step in that direction. A step taken at the already risky time of the introduction of a new and somewhat controversial system.
There is a strong community within the mature forum - surprisingly so, and beyond that of the other forums (except perhaps the Char Opt. forum). As this whole 4e thing has alienated a large number of people (I have yet to encounter anyone in real life with a positive opinion of it, including the owner of my favorite gaming store), the fact the forum will be restructured in its favor and the 3e forums destroyed or moved to a tiny fraction of the area will do very little to help.
Removing one of the strongest communities because it no longer is part of your children-as-a-primary-market strategy is going to further alienate a large group - and people tend to follow the large groups.
I suspect the WoTC forum population will decline significantly with the release of 4e - I simply hope that the GitP and ENworld forums remain strong 3e forums.
Well, as much as I disagree with much of the guidelines that GZ laid down for us, I think we might want to consider the possibility that they could be non-negotiable. So instead of simply complaining about it, would it even be possible to create a functional mature forum within the confines of GZ's restrictions?
I'm not sure why you chose to add more to your post than this. What you have written here is important, and deserves to stand on its own.
Assuming the powers-that-be have laid down some non-negotiable guidelines that GZ has now shared with us, the question becomes:
How do we maintain a "Mature Forum" within these guidelines?
To the reader: If your answer is that we can't, then please consider this question to not be directed toward you. I'm not saying to butt out. I'm just suggesting that if you believe that a Mature Forum can't exist in this context, then you don't have an answer to the question at this time.
And we ban all speech about anything WotC wants to forget it published.
So then the forum can not stand in any way by talking about anything remotely adult if we can not except one forum from the eyes of children.
WotC then removes all information of such adult content from it's site and mysteriously all 3.0 and 3.5 books with Mature stickers on them disappear from the world.
Seriously, WotC messed up in that department.
If they want to get children into it; make a new cartoon (the movies sucked...) make it not suck, and then advertise DnD like they do Yugioh or Pokemon.
But don't make the game completely child friendly to appease the fanatic soccer moms and the politicians who seek scape goats.
I'm not sure why you chose to add more to your post than this. What you have written here is important, and deserves to stand on its own.
Assuming the powers-that-be have laid down some non-negotiable guidelines that GZ has now shared with us, the question becomes:
How do we maintain a "Mature Forum" within these guidelines?
I'd rather just challenge the guidelines and call those people out on whatever bullcrap they spout. If they're not being intelligent, rational or fair then that's what they're going to hear.
I'd rather just challenge the guidelines and call those people out on whatever bullcrap they spout. If they're not being intelligent, rational or fair then that's what they're going to hear.
Between trying to figure out how to maintain your community within the posted guidelines and challenging the guidelines on a message board, which do you think is more likely to preserve your community?
I'm betting on the former.
It sounds like these guidelines are being handed down by the legal department. This does not feel like a business decision. This does not feel like an editorial decision. This sounds like a legal decision and those really are not going to be swayed by what people post on an internet board because the legal department isn't going to rely on anything someone on the internet tells them over their own legal research.
Between trying to figure out how to maintain your community within the posted guidelines and challenging the guidelines on a message board, which do you think is more likely to preserve your community?
I'm betting on the former.
There are other people who are doing that for me. Last time I checked, WotC was aching for some constructive criticism and this is the criticism I have to offer.
It sounds like these guidelines are being handed down by the legal department. This does not feel like a business decision. This does not feel like an editorial decision. This sounds like a legal decision and those really are not going to be swayed by what people post on an internet board because the legal department isn't going to rely on anything someone on the internet tells them over their own legal research.
I don't give a flying **** who made the decision or what kind of decision it is. It's an idiotic decision and I'm against idiocy. WotC is free to do whatever the hell they want on their own message board as long as it doesn't violate the Patriot Act or something, and their legal department wanting to play it safe (even though it's no more safe than anything else) does nothing to change that.
Oh, and don't ever use the phrase "someone on the internet" as if it invalidates someone's opinion. It doesn't.
Last time I checked, WotC was aching for some constructive criticism and this is the criticism I have to offer.
But how is it "constructive" if it isn't going to be effective?
I don't give a flying **** who made the decision or what kind of decision it is. It's an idiotic decision and I'm against idiocy.
How would you describe metaphorically peeing in the wind? Doesn't that seem a bit idiotic to you? Please note I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing that WotC's decision in this regard is idiotic. I'm only commenting on your reaction to that decision.
Oh, and don't ever use the phrase "someone on the internet" as if it invalidates someone's opinion. It doesn't.
I didn't say it invalidated your opinion. I said it invalidates any expectation of your actions having an effect on it. If you're against idiocy, one would expect you engage in actions that will be effective, rather than futile. I was trying to explain to you why railing against a decision you cannot change is futile, and there are thing you could be doing that would be more effective. Of course, the choice is yours.
But how is it "constructive" if it isn't going to be effective?
It doesn't have to be effective to be constructive.
How would you describe metaphorically peeing in the wind? Doesn't that seem a bit idiotic to you? Please note I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing that WotC's decision in this regard is idiotic. I'm only commenting on your reaction to that decision.
It's not idiotic to oppose something even if you can't change it. I'm expressing disapproval of a decision that has no merit -- and explaining why that is -- in hopes of someone actually realizing that WotC's legal team has (edited) its pants on this one.
I didn't say it invalidated your opinion. I said it invalidates any expectation of your actions having an effect on it. If you're against idiocy, one would expect you engage in actions that will be effective, rather than futile. I was trying to explain to you why railing against a decision you cannot change is futile, and there are thing you could be doing that would be more effective. Of course, the choice is yours.
It takes only a couple of minutes to write a response, it drains an amount of my energy that approaches zero and I'm bored right now, so at least this keeps me occupied until I find something better to do.
It doesn't have to be effective to be constructive.
* * *
I'm expressing disapproval of a decision that has no merit -- and explaining why that is -- in hopes of someone actually realizing that WotC's legal team has (edited) its pants on this one.
So do you think your statements will have no effect or do you think your statements have a chance of changing the legal department's mind? Your two sentences contradict one another.
If the former, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. The entire point of "constructive" criticism is get the other person to work constructively.
If the latter, then you're in for a disappointment, since internet posts are incapable of changing a decision made by a legal department, because a legal department is unaffected by P.R., profit models or anything that might alter a business decision. They are motivated by the law.
I'm bored right now, so at least this keeps me occupied until I find something better to do.
So... you don't think this is construcive? You're just spamming the board to pass the time?
So do you think your statements will have no effect or do you think your statements have a chance of changing the legal department's mind? Your two sentences contradict one another.
No they don't. I'm pointing out that constructive criticism doesn't have to be effective to be constructive, and that's true.
If the former, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. The entire point of "constructive" criticism is get the other person to work constructively.
And some people don't accept constructive criticism. That doesn't make said criticism any less constructive. It also doesn't mean that giving the criticism was a stupid thing to do.
If the latter, then you're in for a disappointment, since internet posts are incapable of changing a decision made by a legal department, because a legal department is unaffected by P.R., profit models or anything that might alter a business decision. They are motivated by the law.
I'm making an observation. Also, WotC owns the legal department and if the legal team makes a crappy decision (such as this one) maybe someone should point that out so it could possibly be passed on. Of course, there is one idiocy I am guilty of: I didn't go over everyone's head and contact the legal department directly. That would have been the smart thing to do.
Oh, and legal teams are not always motivated by the law. Sometimes they are, in fact, motivated by public opinion or certain agendas (political correctness, for example, of which this issue reeks) and are not incapable of making an unsound decision based on faulty reasoning (for example that discrimination by age and discrimination by religion are not the same thing). This decision needs to be reviewed.
So... you don't think this is construcive? You're just spamming the board to pass the time?
You read that wrong.
Oh, and legal teams are not always motivated by the law.
Yes, they are. That's their job. To tell the company for which they work what they can or cannot do under the law. The P.R. department worries about P.R.
Yes, they are. That's their job. To tell the company for which they work what they can or cannot do under the law. The P.R. department worries about P.R.
So explain to me then, hypothetically, what could possibly make them come to this particular decision? A precedent from a civil suit? That would seem to me to be the most likely suspect, but it's hardly even possible that it happened being that WotC has this large-ass disclaimer protecting them from every possible liability. And many forums on the internet have age limits because they don't want to deal with potential ugliness that may result from a younger-than-average member posting there (because let's face it, pubescent/pre-pubescent children are not always the most charming and friendly people out there), so that's a decent precedent right there.
And no, just because it's their job to do legal research, it's a ridiculous and naive notion to think that that is the only thing they do. They're human, meaning that they have biases and may interpret the law the way they want it to be. Turning off your emotions is not an option.
Coming back to the topic: Mike -- have the posts here done anything to help persuade you that:
A) There's a purpose to the forum?
B) It's viable to establish it within the existing guidelines of the CoC?
Wow. Who knew I was so persuasive... ;)
Coming back to the topic: Mike -- have the posts here done anything to help persuade you that:
A) There's a purpose to the forum?
B) It's viable to establish it within the existing guidelines of the CoC?
C) And call it "Polyhedral Vice", which is really the most responsible forum title suggested to date.
Those providers deal with the fact that adults and children both use their facilities; Yahoo is willing to take the risks (while it is still Yahoo); while MSN seems to have given up the risks completely (but their "groups" were a pain to use anyway).
Let's take a random guess: How many people use hotmail for anything other than messenger and e-mail on a daily basis?
I for one don't (don't use the messenger either, too out of date).
Now in relation to the topic at hand:
Even if they get rid of the Mature Forums completely (for whatever agonizingly dumb reason; and yes, I did say "dumb" in reference to whichever of WotC's departments came up with the idea; which then turns on WotC for the hirelings and the ideas sprouted from whenceforth); while it has it's own community, as long as 4e does not stray too far from the forum ways now (which means that they'll have a lot of subforums if they want coherency) the people who use these forums and switch over to 4e and those who don't will still have their places.
They won't leave (again, providing GZ and the PtB realize they'll still need to make subforums) just because the Mature Forums are gone. I certainly won't (though I do attend to other business on the other subforums (OA for example)). So, from the current appearances, the Mature Forums are gone unless a serious change of heart comes about, but then when has WotC had a change of heart about anything?
As J.D. Wiker described in an essay on his site; we must censor ourselves so that others will not censor us. That means WotC is "innovative" at the cost of fan-power. They are policing their site and content to no longer be about the art, the Dungeons, and the Dragons, so that they can attract the younger generations to this wonderful game. The game will remain unchanged for the most part (save for the mechanics, the art, and the level of maturity discussed in the books), but it's less in those things than how you play the game.
If you want to run an adult mature game, go ahead. Describe the bloodshed and gore. But WotC is not having it at their site where they expect younger kids to hop on after school (like Neopets) and play and chat with their little friends. Without the age block, you won't be able to discuss anything on the "Polyhedral Vice" forums without being warned, so then a generic board would be of greater value to the entirety of the community than a forum that's purpose does not meet it's intent.
So with 4e, WotC will turn into a playground, rather than a smoke/drink lounge.
There will be no mature forums as long as the CoC can not be bent, the age requirement can not be kept, and the moderators can not learn the intent and purpose of the forum itself.
DnD will not die out, as 4e (provided it allows OGL) will simply usher in a new age of mature content from players and possibly even 3rd party publishers. There is nothing inherently wrong with sex in DnD. DnD is about violence. Even if it solely caters to the American rating system ("violence is minimally detrimental to children's development" crock); there will be players and DMs who make DnD as explicit as it can be.
And that's how the game will be played. Succubi will not simply be shameful eye-candy, they will be alluring voluptuous vixens cruel and wicked PCs will enslave.
Even if they get rid of CHA, players will reinstate it, much like the APP score.
So even if WotC turns pansy, it will have ballsy players. As WotC will eventually find out, as the players grow, they will not abandon DnD, but it will mature with the players, and then WotC will be caught with it's pants down making another mature forum.
Though it may take years, GZ, what you see as unnecessary will most likely make a comeback. If not with WotC, than with whatever company takes over long after WotC is dead and DnD still thrives (perhaps 5e, the edition geared more towards us that will be old geezies, moving back to 3.5e in terms of maturity).
And while WotC acts in its best interests to censor itself, it has only geared itself into such a need to do so by advertising DnD as a game "for all ages".
Roleplaying and Immature Prepubescent Children = Nerdy little Paladins in big heavy armor with Succubi Twins on either arm.
Put that in your kid-friendly core rulebook and read aloud!
I think we can at least try to make the community viable within the new guidelines that have been handed down. So here is my attempt at making something that fits with in the guidelines.
- We can't ask CS to enforce the CoC any more or less in this or any other forum, so it has to be uniform.
I don't think it needs to have a separate CoC per say, because many of the things that would violate the CoC in other forums would likely violate many peoples interpretation (to say nothing of how CS chooses to interpret it) even in the mature forums. Instead we would simply have a forum to move threads too where the focus is not on the mechanics or DM/player stratigy but is on the issues that arise within the game worlds.
The biggest problem with the CoC how strictly one interprets part of section 2 (emphasis mine):
Do not use, post, distribute or link to obscene, pornographic, sexually explicit, graphically or gratuitously violent, derogatory, demeaning, malicious, defamatory, abusive, offensive, hateful or discriminatory language or content. This includes "masking" language by using alternative characters/spelling/spacing to get around profanity filters or claims of profanity filter "testing."
Due to the nature of some of the topics that are talked about in the mature forum it is possible that by some interpretations of the CoC it would be impossible to have meaningful discussions about them without violating it.
To illustrate what I mean, I'll put something here I posted three years ago when the topic was why there are so many half-dragons of the evil dragon variety:
Show
If you look at it from a purely hedonistic aspect. I could see any chromatic dragon capable of shapechange. Having sex with, more likely raping, a human. I would think it would still feel pleasurable to the dragon to even if it was shape changed. And since many of the evil dragons enjoy dominating what they consider to be lesser creatures. Why wouldn't they see this as yet one more way to dominate lesser creatures, and a quite pleasurable one at that.
I'll write a quick story that looks at the issue from the draconic perspective(and throw in sexual-stereotypes for fun):
One bright sunny day Ivakasssiv, a particularly powerful red dragon, was flying along surveying his vast territory. When to his amusement he saw relatively young elf maiden sitting far below picking flowers in a field. His amazing eye sight imminently identified her as a member of a particular clan of elves that had yet to pay him his tribute. So he figured that she was a convenient way to exact what was fair from them. So he quickly dived down and snatched her up in his claws before she could even let out a whimper let alone scream. Ivakasssiv had intended to eat her on the spot, but he was already full from a party of adventurers that attempted to raid his lair earlier that morning, so he instead decided to carry her back to said lair to consume at a later point (it's not as though elves have a particularly quick expiration date.) When he reached his lair he flung the now fainted elf maiden into one of his many self-blasted pits. He then proceeded to his treasury to count his coins (just to make sure that soon-to-be-blasted rogue didn't get any.) After completing this task Ivakasssiv was feeling a tad peckish, so he wandered off to his prisoner pits to find a quick bite. When he passed the pit containing the elf maiden (now conscious and cowering in utter fear) he noticed that this pathetic creature happened to be a particularly good specimen. It occurred to Ivakasssiv that this one might produce acceptable offspring to aid in the defense of his lair; after all what does the year or so it will delay him from eating her matter to him anyway, its not as though he had a shortage of years, who knows, it would probably be fun too. So after popping a few random kobolds into his mouth, Ivakasssiv gently picked up the maiden (he needs it intact) and moved her to a somewhat better quality hole in the ground (this one actually had a bed and a chamber pot.) He then called upon the innate magic that all dragons have within their cores and concentrated on a form more "compatible" with that of the maiden. With in a matter of seconds he found him self shrunk to her pathetic stature standing a few feet away from her.
I'm going to cut it off here as I would find it hard to avoid turning this into some form of really weird smut. I'm sure you get the idea though.
I'll write a quick story that looks at the issue from the draconic perspective(and throw in sexual-stereotypes for fun):
One bright sunny day Ivakasssiv, a particularly powerful red dragon, was flying along surveying his vast territory. When to his amusement he saw relatively young elf maiden sitting far below picking flowers in a field. His amazing eye sight imminently identified her as a member of a particular clan of elves that had yet to pay him his tribute. So he figured that she was a convenient way to exact what was fair from them. So he quickly dived down and snatched her up in his claws before she could even let out a whimper let alone scream. Ivakasssiv had intended to eat her on the spot, but he was already full from a party of adventurers that attempted to raid his lair earlier that morning, so he instead decided to carry her back to said lair to consume at a later point (it's not as though elves have a particularly quick expiration date.) When he reached his lair he flung the now fainted elf maiden into one of his many self-blasted pits. He then proceeded to his treasury to count his coins (just to make sure that soon-to-be-blasted rogue didn't get any.) After completing this task Ivakasssiv was feeling a tad peckish, so he wandered off to his prisoner pits to find a quick bite. When he passed the pit containing the elf maiden (now conscious and cowering in utter fear) he noticed that this pathetic creature happened to be a particularly good specimen. It occurred to Ivakasssiv that this one might produce acceptable offspring to aid in the defense of his lair; after all what does the year or so it will delay him from eating her matter to him anyway, its not as though he had a shortage of years, who knows, it would probably be fun too. So after popping a few random kobolds into his mouth, Ivakasssiv gently picked up the maiden (he needs it intact) and moved her to a somewhat better quality hole in the ground (this one actually had a bed and a chamber pot.) He then called upon the innate magic that all dragons have within their cores and concentrated on a form more "compatible" with that of the maiden. With in a matter of seconds he found him self shrunk to her pathetic stature standing a few feet away from her.
I'm going to cut it off here as I would find it hard to avoid turning this into some form of really weird smut. I'm sure you get the idea though.
Go to the other thread and see the legal action that probably prompted Wizards to make the change. I would not be surprised if Google, MSN and Yahoo begin to change how they operate as well.
Saw it. Change at yahoo has been nil. They've removed adult content from yahoo profiles, but changed nothing else. If you lie on your profile and say you're old enough, you can still get to porn. You just cant advertise it on your profile now.
Saw it.
Then reply to it there, in the thread created to prevent the derailment you seem intent on causing in this thread.
That's a nice, cheap shot, wrecan. Very mature.
:shrug: I tried being polite. I even linked the thread for him. He went to that thread, read the comments and then came back here to post a message that is off-topic here, but would have been on-topic there. I think the discussion this thread is supposed to be about is both productive and relevant and might in fact sway TPTB to save the Mature Forum in some incarnation. But if people insist on derailing the thread -- even after they've been told where to go -- the thread is going to get ignored and then who cares if Bhu or I win some futile internet debate?
Actually skip that. The boards here used to be fun till recently. Now it's just a bunch of bickering and pointless argument. Let Wizards shut the whole thing down if they want to. Memories of a fun place are better than watching it devolve into a shadow of its former self.
Any more?
The boards here used to be fun till recently. Now it's just a bunch of bickering and pointless argument.
The Boards are still fun. Try visiting a thread on something that is actually D&D content related (or whatever other forums you might visit).
The bickering is contained within the threads "about the Boards" or "about the existence of a new edition". And such threads are largely populated by folks who seem to enjoy the bickering, or who lack the ability to self-regulate their responses to the bickering.
That last observation is not an insult. I removed myself from the C&C thread *because* I was letting myself get into the bickering.
If you don't like the bickering, visit threads about the games, not threads about the Boards.