Personally, I'd like to see an official word on their replacement for PDFs, I'm in the middle of an emergency move and dead-tree versions of anything are not viable to transport
I would love to see some kind of official word from WOTC on this issue.
I did not participate in the other threads. I will calmly explain my point of view, all of which is based on the business decisions.
WOTC could have come out with free copies of PDF files for each hard cover book purchased. A simple code printed on a sticker on the inside cover would have done the trick. This would necessitate the sealing of the books in shrink wrap. Answer the "preview before buying" problem by giving stores preview copies to keep in store and making a few pages or a chapter available for preview online. WOTC decided against this because "the cost would have been too high". I think this is/was a bad business decision - the good will and PR generated, and resulting sales, from this move would have wiped out the cost by a mile.
The next issue is environmental. Many players, some in my play group, are environment conscious and if buying a PDF saves trees, they want that option. WOTC is showing that they don't care about this issue at all. Again, bad business decision since these players REFUSE to by a hard copy, period. WOTC will now lose out on ALL of that money.
This entire issue can be boiled down to the Steve Jobs decision to remove the DRM from iTunes. This decision/argument from Steve Jobs can easily be applied to this issue concerning PDF's of the D&D books. Here's the basic rundown: There are four groups of consumers. One, is the people who will alway pay, regardless of the restrictions placed on the use by the DRM. You will ALWAYS have the income from this group.
The second group is the consumers who buy your iTunes (or PDF's) but strip out the DRM with piracy software because the DRM places unreasonable restrictions on how and where they enjoy the music (or PDF) they purchased - they don't like being told/restricted to where they can move copies around to their own personal devices, so they remove the DRM. In the situation of the WOTC PDF files you may or may not keep the income from this group - some will just buy the books, some will not buy them because they want a PDF - either way there will be income lost as some people stop buying.
There is the third group who refused to buy iTunes because the DRM made it a pain-in-the-ass to use, so they gave up on legal buying and went for pirated music. Make something difficult to use and people will walk away - ie, you lose all income from this group. This can be applied to the WOTC PDF's with the group of gamers who only buy PDF's and *refuse* to buy hard copies. This group of gamers now has no choice but to use pirated copies of PDF's. They *want* to pay you, they *want* to buy the PDF's, but they can't now. Now this group is *entirely* lost income.
The fourth group of consumers is the "pure pirate". They will never pay you. Ever. They were never going to pay you to begin with, and they aren't going to now. You never had the income from this group and never will.
Looking at that decision/argument from Steve Jobs concerning iTunes and the DRM, the same applies to the WOTC PDF's. You have income from people who will always pay. You never had the income from hardcore pirates and never will. In the other two groups, *you are losing income* that you could otherwise be taking in. This is a bad business decision by WOTC - it will *not* generate more income, all it will do is lose income.
.
.
.
I hope that WOTC starts selling/distributing PDF copies in some manner soon. I like the PDF files, I buy them. It saves lots of time during game when you can quickly search up information on your laptop - they make the game *easier* to play and enjoy. I sincerely hope WOTC will see past their knee-jerk reaction with a bad business decision and bring back the PDF books - it makes good long term business sense.
I will bring up the loss of the pdfs every chance I get because it was important to me and it is a big deal and until they sell their content as pdfs, I won't be buying any more from WotC.
BLACK
FREAKING
TEXT!!!
Until then... *puts on ignore*
Let's see, that list is up to.... 53 people. Wow.
I should sell that list as a service...
Until then... *puts on ignore*
Let's see, that list is up to.... 53 people. Wow.
I've got to do the same. Seeing that bright pink on the parchment background is just too much for the eyes.
PinkRose, I'm sure you've got good things to say, but how you're saying it is way too "loud" for me to hear you.
Sure, by all means, delete abusive posts, but I can't see any reason to censor this particular topic, except that some people's sensibilities are offended (which isn't a very good reason).
From the perspective of WoTC, I don't think it would be a particularly wise policy decision to shut down threads on this topic.
Seconded. And I add: it's not wise to shut them down after five whole pages.
Klaus, we're all volunteers here. That thread grew five pages in 24 hours. I don't think it's fair to roll your virtual eyes because it took a day for us to get it closed.
Shouldn't it have been closed since the first page, according to what Webster wrote?
Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that people aren't ticked about this, isn't going to make life any better. Especially when said people are giving several helpful solutions to the problem.
Shouldn't it have been closed since the first page, according to what Webster wrote?
Klaus, I don't think you get the import of "we're all volunteers". The FGs and VCLs are volunteers. We don't perch on the forums 24-7. There's a lag time in getting stuff done. So, yes, in an ideal world, we'd have the omniscience to shut it down within seconds of the first post. But in actuality, it can take a day or two to get it done. This thread was active for only about 24 hours. in that time it generated 5 pages of replies, though much of that was a conversation between only a handful of active posters.
Klaus, I don't think you get the import of "we're all volunteers". The FGs and VCLs are volunteers.
So what? I've been a volunteer mod for many years in many communities and I always checked my sections three or more times per day. When I wasn't able to do it, I refused the charge or quitted.
Anyway, I'm totally in favor of a unique thread open.
So what? I've been a volunteer mod
We're not mods. We're community volunteers. Closing the .pdf was an editorial decision, not a moderator decision (in that .pdf threads don't violate the Code of Conduct).
Is the PDF thread worth restarting?
I don't want it restarted, but I think it should be restarted nonetheless.
Frankly, people need someplace to discuss it. Otherwise, any other thread that has anything even remotely to do with the cessation of PDF sales will inevitably start straying onto that topic anyway. I can think of one thread in which it's already happening to some extent. The forum still needs a specific thread in which to air those grievances, at least in the short term. Otherwise those grievances will spill into other threads that are even slightly related. And that doesn't help anyone.
Just my 2cp.
It's been 10 days. Has there been any word from on high about this decision? The longer it takes for someone to make a call the more it's going to look like covert censorship of the topic. If the threads violate the CoC then by all means they should be shut down, but as long as they don't, there should be somewhere to discuss the subject.
Therein lies part of the problem - aside from the usual trolling/baiting/flaming issues promoting illegal activities is against the CoC. "I have no choice but to pirate copies" could very well land someone in trouble.
It sort of feels wrong to open a thread and then have people warned/banned for commenting on the thread.
The other pitfall is the topic getting watered down to the topic of piracy rather than about the D&D PDFs.
I am also very disapointed that the removal of the d20STL has made it illegal for 3rd edition Ravenloft and Dragonlance PDFs to continue to be sold. This is a separate issue, because this relates to two expired third-party licences. But the fans of those campaign settings want to be able to buy those products.
I think it would be good for people to be able to have a thread where they can ask WotC to reconsider this decision and find a way to get all of these things back onto the market.
However, I fail to see why forum members can't voice this sort of thing as a "We the undersigned would like to be able to buy X, Y and Z" petition and refrain from posting "when did you stop beating your wife?"-style loaded comments that are designed to attack WotC staff.
WotC staff do not "eat babies" and it bugs me that people seem to think that just because someone makes a bad business decision they are "evil". What is wrong with people saying what they want WotC to do without insulting them?
As for people who are foolish enough to openly boast that they are going to trade illegal PDFs, I don't think that the low-powered forum staff have any sort of obligation to help those people avoid having their accounts suspended. (Forum members should really have the common sense to realise that WotC's lawyers could easily search this forum for people advocating piracy, get the admins to hand over their IP addresses and then get their contact details from their ISPs. If someone wants to give themselves a legal "Darwin" award, I don't think you can stop them.) However, I don't see a problem with moderators* deleting an individual offensive post without locking a thread. The policy of locking threads means that one troll can get a sensible (if perhaps excessivly heated) discussion shut down. I say suspend or ban the troll - not the discussion.
* = Sorry, but I can not keep up with the confusing non-standard forum titles that WotC likes to give to forum staff. I think that Plain English forum titles would be better.
YOU!!!
BLACK
FREAKING
TEXT!!!
Until then... *puts on ignore*
Let's see, that list is up to.... 53 people. Wow.
I should sell that list as a service...
I've got to do the same. Seeing that bright pink on the parchment background is just too much for the eyes. PinkRose, I'm sure you've got good things to say, but how you're saying it is way too "loud" for me to hear you.
I think you folks are overreacting. It wasn't that hard on the eyes to read. Besides if people aren't supposed to use something other than black text then what is the font color button for? As a protest towards the nasty restricting of freedom of expression I will, from now on, post in bright pink (actually Magenta)!
OT: If WotC took a page from successful companies that make a profit from PDF versions of their RPG books *cough* Steve Jackson Games *cough* and stopped following the advice their lawyers (obviously WotC is using the same RIAA lawyers as the music industry and you see how successful they are at stopping piracy) are giving them they might stop the complaints and bickering and might actually enjoy the extra dollars.
I'm not going to hold my breath though...
(ok so some of this post was in DeepSkyBlue. So sue me because I wanted to mix it up a little. :P )
As for people who are foolish enough to openly boast that they are going to trade illegal PDFs, I don't think that the low-powered forum staff have any sort of obligation to help those people avoid having their accounts suspended. (Forum members should really have the common sense to realise that WotC's lawyers could easily search this forum for people advocating piracy, get the admins to hand over their IP addresses and then get their contact details from their ISPs. If someone wants to give themselves a legal "Darwin" award, I don't think you can stop them.)
Here I am (not) winning a legal "Darwin" award by saying that I trade in "illegal" PDF's. The reason why I'm not worried about WotC's lawyers is because I own legal (hard) copies of every PDF I own and the PDF's are strictly for my personal use. If WotC wants to try and sue me then they can waste all the money they want on a suit that will inevitability be thrown out of court.
The sad thing is that WotC could have made a few more bux from me because I would have supported the company by buying a high quality (and indexed) PDF from them instead of "illegally" downloading a PDF of dubious quality.
PS I'm not posting in blue or pink because the last post was partly a joke :D
A) The backup part of copyright law, I believe, applies to recordings, not books.
B) Even if it extends to to books, as I understand it, the law allows you to make a backup copy; it doesn't allow you to acquire a backup copy made by somebody else.
This thread is not about the .pdf policy. This thread is about whether it should be restarted. I see no reason why it should.
By now, I see no reason to restart the PDF thread. Most of the ruckus surrounding it has died down, from what I can tell at least. I don't think there would be much use to a reboot of the thread.
I do not think any aforementioned point should preclude discussion regarding Wizards of the Coast’s decision to no longer off .pdf products for sale. Threads asking about drow in Eberron are not closed because the question has been answered before. Discussion of illegal activities is against Section 4 of the Code of Conduct, but the topic is about a Wizards of the Coast business decision, the discussion of which is not illegal or against the Code of Conduct. There have been threads involving serious debate conducted in a respectful manner.
The users of this forum are first and foremost consumers; each of us has purchased Wizards of the Coast product. This is a business decision that strongly affects some of us and I believe restricting discussion about it here would be a mistake.
As a direct response to the OP and to the TL;DR crowd:
I believe whether the discussion has currently run its course is irrelevant. If someone wants to start a thread it should be treated like any other thread, complete with being left alone if the posters are respectful and abide by the Code of Conduct or being locked if the posters polymorph into flaming trolls.
In the end the topic itself was banned because of multiple locks and repeated code of conduct violations.
Other topics have also been banned for these reason.
So this topic hasn't really had any special treatment.
In the end the topic itself was banned because of multiple locks and repeated code of conduct violations.
Other topics have also been banned for these reason.
I was under the impression this thread was about whether to allow a new thread to be started or to ban the subject entirely. I was not aware the topic was already declared taboo. If that is the case then a new thread should not be created.
So this topic hasn't really had any special treatment.
I was not trying to suggest it had; I was trying to say it should not be given special treatment just because it is a divisive issue. I apparently failed at expressing that, and rereading it now I see why.
That being said, it is a shame we are no longer able to discuss this. It is not as if Wizards of the Coast does not listen if people talk loud enough. Such is the nature of flaming trolls I guess.
Are we basically left with, "we stopped allowing the books to be sold digitally," and nothing else on whether or not the practice will be reviewed or processed in a different manner?
The PDF topic has outlived is usefulness and so keep it closed as it deserve.
No.
The PDF topic has outlived is usefulness and so keep it closed as it deserve.
Isn't this thread against the CoC? since we are discussing opening a thread about a thread that was closed?
I personally think that if it was closed because of flamers, then if another thread pops up about the same thing with non-flamers, then it should be allowed to run its course.
I personally think that if it was closed because of flamers, then if another thread pops up about the same thing with non-flamers, then it should be allowed to run its course.
I agree, but is that still an option or has this topic gone the way of waging edition wars? Has the decision been made that WotC's cessation of .pdf sales may no longer be discussed on this forum?
where did my signature slink off to?
By default, any sig - including your own - only shows once on a page. If you'd like to always see every sig, you can make that chance in your user profile.
By default, any sig - including your own - only shows once on a page. If you'd like to always see every sig, you can make that chance in your user profile.
Fail. Thanks, I appreciate the help.
Isn't this thread against the CoC? since we are discussing opening a thread about a thread that was closed?
Huh, no. This thread was started by Webster who has authority to restart a locked thread.
I personally think that if it was closed because of flamers, then if another thread pops up about the same thing with non-flamers, then it should be allowed to run its course.
It has already gone past that point. I believe that at least three threads on the subject have been locked separately.
Interestingly enough the first was locked do to size and restated. The rest where locked for CoC violations.
However, from the stand point of "we run a business and thus I deserve to get paid for my work" stand point...I understand. It's a shame truly, but if I ran the business I probably woulve done the same.
However, I would "leak" a few pdf's here and there or partial pdf's to get you interested in the books.
But good business sense is to put a stop to free pdf's and the easiest way to do that...at least in the short term is to pull the plug.
1) WotC cancelled the sale of legal OOP TSR PDFs (i.e. OD&D and AD&D stuff) and that does not directly compete with their 4e dead-tree sales.
2) WotC cancelled the d20STL and that prevents the sale of (legal Ravenloft and Dragonlance PDFs). That also does not compete directly with their 4e dead-tree sales.
3) WotC cancelled the sale of their own OOP legal PDFs (i.e. 3rd edition D&D). That does not compete directly with their 4e dead-tree sales.
4) WotC cancelled the sale of their in-print legal PDFs (i.e. 4th edition D&D). That does compete directly with their 4e dead-tree sales.
I can fully understand that WotC does not want illegal downloads. If they do not make some sort of effort to control their own IP they face loosing it. I already meet people who talk of the OOP D&D settings as if they are "abandonware".
However, from a user point-of-view, I can see how customers from one of these four markets should be able to ask for WotC to find a new way to restart the PDF business.
And I think that if RPG fans buy PDFs from other places, they should be able to bring those places to the attention of WotC and suggest them as possible ways to bring back the PDF market. (And if WotC can't find a good commercial way to do this, then maybe they could put up more free OOP PDF downloads and put out a new version of the ESD Conversion Agreement that encourages fans to convert obscure D&D stuff to 4e.)
That is the sort of thing that I think that D&D fans need to be able to talk about. And when I say "talk", I mean talk - not rant. I don't think we need people to be able to claim that "WotC is The Man" or that "WotC staff eat babies" or that "WotC has ruined D&D forever". Lets face it, this forum belongs to WotC and we are guests here. I think we should act like guests and play nice.
I think that people who say "WotC eat babies" and/or advocate piracy should get targeted personally. If one person can get otherwise productive threads locked, yet still carry on posting the wrong people are being punished for the "offence".
If people are willing to talk about this like adults, and keep plugging for WotC to find a solution that works for both them and us, then maybe WotC will find a way to fit a new plan for this into their schedule and we might get some of this stuff back onto the market. But if some of the people are not willing to talk about this like adults, I would say that those people - and not this subject - are the problem.
I assume dead tree sales means books. Not very PC huh?
and I guess IF you consider eating scrambled eggs Wotc does eat babies.
The cooked aborted babies of chickens! Sorry bad joke
The rumor and specalation at the local game shop is that a hasbro had a fit and told wotc to pull the plug.
Wotc eats's babies?
I assume dead tree sales means books. Not very PC huh?
and I guess IF you consider eating scrambled eggs Wotc does eat babies.
The cooked aborted babies of chickens! Sorry bad joke
The rumor and specalation at the local game shop is that a hasbro had a fit and told wotc to pull the plug.
I think the main underlying reason they did all of the things listed above is that they simply want to force players into upgrading to 4E. So instead of continuing to get income from 100% of the old edition base, they are getting about 12% sales from the few that actually decided to upgrade.
I have no objections on restarting it, but my question is, has the topic run it's course? The last was closed because it was turning into a flame war and/or CoC violations were happening left and right.
If I ask about fluff concerning planar dragons and that gets closed due to flaming. Does that make the discussion of planar dragons banned for all time?
This thread is not about the .pdf policy. This thread is about whether it should be restarted. I see no reason why it should.
You've got people all over the forums making one-off comments because the issue has been deemed taboo. This is going to continue until WotC changes their position, or you allow threads to actually discuss the issue at length.
If I ask about fluff concerning planar dragons and that gets closed due to flaming. Does that make the discussion of planar dragons banned for all time?
If *every* discussion of planar dragons turns into a flamewar, then yes, chances are good that discussion of planar dragons will be banned for a while.
You've got people all over the forums making one-off comments because the issue has been deemed taboo. This is going to continue until WotC changes their position, or you allow threads to actually discuss the issue at length.
While it would be nice to discuss the topic, the question that actually is being asked is the following:
[indent]If discussion of the pdf policy is allowed to continue, will there be actual discussion, or will it just turn into a flamewar again?[/indent]
If Webster feels (or can be convinced) that there will be actual discussion in the thread, chances are good that he will restart it again.
If *every* discussion of planar dragons turns into a flamewar, then yes, chances are good that discussion of planar dragons will be banned for a while.
From what I've gathered many threads were locked because they had simply grown too large. Not because they were turning into a flame war.
If Webster feels (or can be convinced) that there will be actual discussion in the thread, chances are good that he will restart it again.
I still see people discussing whether or not 3.5e is better than 4th ed. There was a time when the topic would automatically turn into a flame war. Was the issue banned?
We've got people commenting in the Goodman thread about whether or not PDF sales are worth chasing (can't really blame people. The door was opened when Goodman said PDFs are irrelevant). Will that thread turn into a flame-war? Who knows. But clearly people want to discuss this issue. If you allow trolls to ban an issue, the trolls have won and you might as well give up on moderating the forums. Because you've just proven how ineffective you are.
Heck, you've got people using this thread to discuss the issue. The issue isn't going to die simply because you lock threads that discuss it. People will keep discussing the issue no matter what. Worst case scenario you ban people for mentioning it. But we already know how laughable banning people is in stopping people from posting.
(you being the general you. Not mudbunny or webster who aren't actually moderators).
From what I've gathered many threads were locked because they had simply grown too large. Not because they were turning into a flame war.
IIRC, the first thread was locked because it had hit 1500+ posts. Above that number, it does strange (which happens to overlap surprisingly well with bad) things to the forums.
I still see people discussing whether or not 3.5e is better than 4th ed. There was a time when the topic would automatically turn into a flame war. Was the issue banned?
For quite a while, yes it was. There came a point when it was determined to see if people could discuss it without it turning into an edition war by the time it had rolled over to 30 or 40 replies.
We've got people commenting in the Goodman thread about whether or not PDF sales are worth chasing (can't really blame people. The door was opened when Goodman said PDFs are irrelevant). Will that thread turn into a flame-war? Who knows. But clearly people want to discuss this issue.
That is the purpose of this thread, for people that want to discuss the pdf issue and are not permitted to let Webster know that you would like to do so. Point out to him the comments by Goodman and that you would like to discuss them and not get the thread closed.
Point out to him the comments by Goodman and that you would like to discuss them and not get the thread closed.
Here are two comments in repsonse to Goodman
IOr when people talk about the pros and cons of PDFs. Sure you can put lots of protections on PDFs. However the people that are distributing pirated PDFs also know how to break that protection. WoTC knows they can't stop piracy 100%. But they can stop some of it, and generally it's the big ones.
Here's what disturbs me. According to him, the fastest growing market is a tiny fraction of the overall. Which implies to me that the bulk of the market is... (best case) not growing much, not growing, or (worst case) shrinking.
His point there was that because pdf sales are such a small portion, Wotc could do something like halting all pdf sales without having a huge fiscal impact on their bottom line. However, my point in return would be that if pdf sales are the fastest growing part of your market, then wotc is missing the chance to get in on a paradigm shift early. And so far, I have heard three kinds of people in the pdf vs paper debate. Those who prefer paper. Those who prefer pdf. And those who have switched from paper to pdf. I have yet to hear of a single testimony of somebody who honestly switched to a paperless paradigm in their life (for a reasonable period, not just trying it out for a week), and switched back to paper.
I myself use digital copies of d&d books, and download new novels with my Kindle. The people who see my kindle and try it out for a few minutes say one of three things: 1) I can't see myself using it. 2) It looks interesting, and I could maybe use it. 3) It is the greatest thing since the sliced bread apps on an iphone and I want to get one. Nobody has said 4) I had one for a year but went back to paper. (speaking of kindles and iphones, if you don't want to buy a kindle, but you have an iphone, the kindle for iphone application is FREE. That's how I got interested in the kindle in the first place.)
Digital gaming sales may be the smallest part of the market. But if they're also the fastest growing segment, it doesn't seem prudent for a company to not develop a business plan for moving in that direction.
One person has already expressed frustration at being told to not discuss PDFs when Goodman raised the issue himself and the thread is dedicated to discussing what Goodman said.
So simply; NO.
There is nothing new to be said on this subject; only the same people with the same complaints who will inspire the same responses and inevitable arguments and flaming.
Just because something is being repeated does not mean it should not be allowed to be said. If that was the case all duplicate threads would be locked. Regarding arguments, they are the cornerstone of intelligent debate and I fail to see the problem with arguing so long as it is done respectfully. Regarding flaming, we seem to be discussing the issue at hand just fine.
Why? Because OCR copies of non-PDF books are available for illegal download (which, for multiple obvious reasons, I won't go into detail over). People who wish to break the law are able to do so, whether Wizards offers PDF sales or not. Once one copy is available, a thousand can be made from it and hosted elsewhere. If anyone at Wizards feels this is an honest argument against PDF sales, they fundamentally misunderstand technology, and will be flogged in this arena for years. Hire a CIO who knows something about IT, and listen to him/her. Non-IT people should not have a voice in this arena whatsoever (for that matter, anyone should remain quiet on subjects they are not knowledgeable of).
I would instead strongly encourage you to investigate ways to integrate digital sales into other areas - incorporate their content into D&Di and the various tools, for example. Look at Masterplan - an excellent offline user-generated tool. Why haven't you built something like this? Why don't you have a tool that allows me to build chapters, a-la Dungeon? Why don't you allow me to save them online, and share that content with other users? There are some excellent custom monsters out there - why don't you allow me to easily browse critters generated by others and share those? Use the monster builder to flag what likely is or is not an approved mob. Let the community rate what I make. Have Wizard editors review and pick favorites.
Have you seen what Microsoft has done with the XBox? How much money they're making off downloadable content? They're charging 50-99c for what is effectively a background on the system screens. I think that's hideously overpriced, but you know what? PEOPLE BUY IT. Why not have a VTT, and allow tiles to be purchased in a similar manner? Sell the PHB2 online - and tie it into the character builder. Make the char builder FREE - what you pay for is the ability to create a Sorcerer. Let me roll a fighter and ranger up to lv3 with the tool out of the box, but I pay for the rest. Want to roll a Paladin at lv10? Need to buy the virtual PHB. Want to make an assassin? Buy PHB3 (or whatever).
Tie in the Dungeon stuffs. D&Di lets me browse adventures, and plug them into a virtual version of MasterPlan. I can see all the mobs, encounters, skill checks... and edit them to make things appropriate for my campaign and character level. Let me buy the virtual DMG, which opens up a lot of the VTT tools. Let me buy virtual AV, which opens up the new weapon types, magic items, vehicles, and masterwork armor. Let me buy virtual minis, which are additional icons (again, look at micro transactions on the XBox for comparison). Let me buy the virtual MM which has icons, stats, etc. When I drop an Orc into an encounter, let me hit an "up" button to auto-increase the guy's level by one or two - the tool should be fairly good at bumping his hp, defenses, damage, etc (granted, some abilities don't translate well if you drop a guy by 10 levels, but +/- 1-2 should be easy).
The online model has been a proven one. Wizards has already taken half a step with D&Di, but it is so tame compared to what is easily possible, and being done in other arenas. I see the pulling back from PDF sales as nothing more than FUD. I see the decreasing feature set of D&Di as a letdown over what could easily have been.
I personally think WOTC chose to do the right thing because they realised that what people were paying for in PDF copies of their books was terrible value for money for these customers, particularly because the same quality books could be obtained for free by anyone bold enough to ignore copyright law.
Terrible value? There are numerous people here begging for them back, because they don't want to download illegally. There are not many companies who see customers begging "please take my money" and decide this is a PROBLEM.
Terrible value? There are numerous people here begging for them back, because they don't want to download illegally. There are not many companies who see customers begging "please take my money" and decide this is a PROBLEM.
So? people love to throw their money away at casinos too... that doesnt mean they arent suckers for wanting to do so.
*shrugs* I guess I'm a sucker
You said it, not me.
The "PDF sales promote copyright" isn't even academic; all you need is one copy in the wild, on a popular website, and it's over. It doesn't matter what the source is. If someone were to bust the copy protection on a legal download or OCR a copy, once it's uploaded it's uploaded. Lawyers may then try to chase down illegal downloads or those hosting them (go for it), but the argument about ceasing PDF sales because of piracy is dead.
Why? Because OCR copies of non-PDF books are available for illegal download (which, for multiple obvious reasons, I won't go into detail over). People who wish to break the law are able to do so, whether Wizards offers PDF sales or not. Once one copy is available, a thousand can be made from it and hosted elsewhere. If anyone at Wizards feels this is an honest argument against PDF sales, they fundamentally misunderstand technology, and will be flogged in this arena for years. Hire a CIO who knows something about IT, and listen to him/her. Non-IT people should not have a voice in this arena whatsoever (for that matter, anyone should remain quiet on subjects they are not knowledgeable of).
I would instead strongly encourage you to investigate ways to integrate digital sales into other areas - incorporate their content into D&Di and the various tools, for example. Look at Masterplan - an excellent offline user-generated tool. Why haven't you built something like this? Why don't you have a tool that allows me to build chapters, a-la Dungeon? Why don't you allow me to save them online, and share that content with other users? There are some excellent custom monsters out there - why don't you allow me to easily browse critters generated by others and share those? Use the monster builder to flag what likely is or is not an approved mob. Let the community rate what I make. Have Wizard editors review and pick favorites.
Have you seen what Microsoft has done with the XBox? How much money they're making off downloadable content? They're charging 50-99c for what is effectively a background on the system screens. I think that's hideously overpriced, but you know what? PEOPLE BUY IT. Why not have a VTT, and allow tiles to be purchased in a similar manner? Sell the PHB2 online - and tie it into the character builder. Make the char builder FREE - what you pay for is the ability to create a Sorcerer. Let me roll a fighter and ranger up to lv3 with the tool out of the box, but I pay for the rest. Want to roll a Paladin at lv10? Need to buy the virtual PHB. Want to make an assassin? Buy PHB3 (or whatever).
Tie in the Dungeon stuffs. D&Di lets me browse adventures, and plug them into a virtual version of MasterPlan. I can see all the mobs, encounters, skill checks... and edit them to make things appropriate for my campaign and character level. Let me buy the virtual DMG, which opens up a lot of the VTT tools. Let me buy virtual AV, which opens up the new weapon types, magic items, vehicles, and masterwork armor. Let me buy virtual minis, which are additional icons (again, look at micro transactions on the XBox for comparison). Let me buy the virtual MM which has icons, stats, etc. When I drop an Orc into an encounter, let me hit an "up" button to auto-increase the guy's level by one or two - the tool should be fairly good at bumping his hp, defenses, damage, etc (granted, some abilities don't translate well if you drop a guy by 10 levels, but +/- 1-2 should be easy).
The online model has been a proven one. Wizards has already taken half a step with D&Di, but it is so tame compared to what is easily possible, and being done in other arenas. I see the pulling back from PDF sales as nothing more than FUD. I see the decreasing feature set of D&Di as a letdown over what could easily have been.
I agree with your sentiments completely. They are not only making their fan base mad by not releasing .PDFs and D&DI tools that were promised, they are also losing customers.
You said it, not me.
It's when people have sentiments like yours, that being honest and paying for the PDFs when they were available made me a sucker because I could have downloaded them for free, that I understand why WotC took them down, no matter how bad I think their decision was.
http://paizo.com/
But wizards has the fear.
World of warcraft has been cutting into there sales for sometime now.
Each time they release a major book you can find it on the pirate bay or something simliar before the offical release date.
Only some of the times there smaller release don't get flogged about.
I have seen pirate copies of Drizzit books running around (this is sometime ago) and thats in a search when I was looking for a price for the single minture of Drizzit from dragons eye.
Understand where there coming from.
What they need is someone like Iale to come in with a bussiness model and say here look at this.
Show them how much a hit on a website costs vs how many sales they could get for X item and ecta ecta.
But I will put it in simple terms.
Wizards keeps getting punched in the face by it's customers.
If you were Wizards would you buy them gloves?
I say Good Job to WotC for deciding to keep paying their employees. They made the right decision, looking out for themselves. None of you can say you wouldn't have done the same.
None of you can say you wouldn't have done the same.
Yes I can, because as a software developer who deals with copyright issues, I am keenly aware of concerns over revenue. Whether software, music, or text, we all face the same basic set of issues.
You are wrong, and so is Wizards. Demonstrably so; there are numerous companies doing very well at making money despite concerns of piracy. There are of course many who don't, mainly because they do not understand the medium. Newspapers are a somewhat similar industry to D&D that's getting hammered. Most have been too slow to adapt. RIAA is the classic case of not getting it. While they sue customers, Apple (who does get it) has been making a killing in online business. Amazon is an interesting example who gets it - interesting because they're online, digital, and print. Also, making a killing.
Hire a CIO who gets it. Be an Apple, not a Newspaper. Be Amazon, not RIAA. Understand your business.
So? people love to throw their money away at casinos too... that doesnt mean they arent suckers for wanting to do so.
Thanks for the group-wide insult. You may not get much out of PDFs but I do - if I don't have a PDF I don't get round to reading the hardcopy and as such hardcopy without PDF is pretty much useless to me. So to me I am not a sucker. Please refrain from the insults.
Every time someone buys digital media, be it images, text documents, video etc.. they have the option to give it away freely, or sell it to other people. Every time a person does this, the company that made the digital media loses money. In a world where I can easily share files through copying it to a disk and giving the disk to a friend, or use one of the hundreds of free file sharing programs like limewire and bearshare that let people easily share anything they want with everyone else on the internet, I make someone lose money.
Everytime something enters the public domain someone loses money. Say no to the public domain now.
Every time you help someone fix a toilet or set up their computer, professionals are losing money. Think of the economy, and stop helping people for free.
There are many arguments you use about why piracy is bad. Automatically assuming everyone who downloads a product would have bought it otherwise is not one of them.
There are many arguments you use about why piracy is bad. Automatically assuming everyone who downloads a product would have bought it otherwise is not one of them.
Neither is automatically assuming everyone who downloads a product would not have bought it.
As it stands, the law is ambiguous because the US legal system has yet to adequately tackle the issue of internet piracy/file sharing. Even something as basic as whether file sharing programs like bittorrent constitute actual copying or just file transfer has not been established in court yet. There is no ruling on whether only the uploader is engaged in a criminal act or if the downloader is legally complicit too. I have no legal training but I have multiple friends who studied and practice law. Some work with IP, one works with the ACLU to protect Fair Use. This is a common topic, and I consider myself informed.
The previous paragraph is important because file sharing is not illegal. Yet. Downloading a copy of the Player’s Handbook 2 is not expressly illegal, especially if you own a copy, even if it can easily be argued to be an immoral act. The fact most people assume file sharing is illegal says a lot about what will happen if a downloader is ever taken to court. Until this happens I think we should shelf this part of the discussion because neither side can be supported and nothing will come of it.
That said, the topic of this thread is ostensibly whether a new thread should be opened to discuss Wizards of the Coast’s decision to no longer offer .pdf products for sale. It appears as if this thread has been allowed to discuss this topic directly. If I am wrong I apologize.
Sales data from multiple companies has shown that file sharing does not significantly impact sales but does increase sales in some cases. Steve Jobs’ indictment of DRM can be logically applied to digital media as a whole and not just DRM protected media. These are demonstrable and have been already been explained either in this thread or elsewhere on these forums. Instead of badmouthing WotC for a decision hastily made in fear (they obviously were trying to protect their sales and did not understand the situation) we should be trying to show them it was a bad decision. Tell WotC how you feel about this decision directly.
Every time someone buys digital media, be it images, text documents, video etc.. they have the option to give it away freely, or sell it to other people. Every time a person does this, the company that made the digital media loses money. In a world where I can easily share files through copying it to a disk and giving the disk to a friend, or use one of the hundreds of free file sharing programs like limewire and bearshare that let people easily share anything they want with everyone else on the internet, I make someone lose money.
I say Good Job to WotC for deciding to keep paying their employees. They made the right decision, looking out for themselves. None of you can say you wouldn't have done the same.
Yes good job for making it so the ONLY source of pdfs is from pirates (or scanning it yourself, but the pirates do it better).
I don't know how many times this has to be said: pulling the pdfs did NOT stop piracy. You can still find scanned and OCRed copies of the books online, which are searchable and very high quality. The only difference now is that people who would have bought the pdfs cannot. Now I understand that the pdf market, while growing, is still rather small, so WotC isn't losing out on much by doing this, but I don't see them gaining much either.
There is also this idea people get that every downloaded copy = 1 lost sale for WotC. This is not true. Some people wouldn't have bought it even if the pirated copy wasn't available. Some people use it to preview material, and if they like it enough they buy the book. Some people already own the book and just wanted a pdf version, in which case you lost a pdf sale, but at least they bought the print version. I would like to see someone do a study on this sort of thing and see what percentage of pirated material actually constitutes a lost sale. I would also like to see how many people would just be satisfied with only having the pdf version (because personally if I'm going to use a book with any regularity, I want it in print).
Yes good job for making it so the ONLY source of pdfs is from pirates (or scanning it yourself, but the pirates do it better).
I don't know how many times this has to be said: pulling the pdfs did NOT stop piracy. You can still find scanned and OCRed copies of the books online, which are searchable and very high quality. The only difference now is that people who would have bought the pdfs cannot. Now I understand that the pdf market, while growing, is still rather small, so WotC isn't losing out on much by doing this, but I don't see them gaining much either.
There is also this idea people get that every downloaded copy = 1 lost sale for WotC. This is not true. Some people wouldn't have bought it even if the pirated copy wasn't available. Some people use it to preview material, and if they like it enough they buy the book. Some people already own the book and just wanted a pdf version, in which case you lost a pdf sale, but at least they bought the print version. I would like to see someone do a study on this sort of thing and see what percentage of pirated material actually constitutes a lost sale. I would also like to see how many people would just be satisfied with only having the pdf version (because personally if I'm going to use a book with any regularity, I want it in print).
Yeah, I agree. Everyone that downloaded a copy of any of WotC copyrighted material please raise your hand!
Yeah, I agree. Everyone that downloaded a copy of any of WotC copyrighted material please raise your hand!
Well obviously such a poll would have to keep the participants anonymous, should not be conducted solely on these boards, and should not be conducted by WotC, which of course means its likely to never happen. Still, if some 3rd party took it upon themselves (or maybe was even asked by WotC to perform the study), the results might be very interesting.
For example, let's say that I want to create my own module for my group's own personal use. With a PDF that I would buy from WoTC, I can copy and paste from the source books for whatever I am looking at.
I understand the need to try to prevent people from illegally obtaining the material and I completely agree with it. But now that you have taken away all the LEGAL ways of obtaining PDFs, what exactly do you think the people are doing now? If you guessed downloading them ILLEGALLY? You would be correct? Now, I know that this scenario doesn't apply to everyone.
So here it is WoTC, here is MY personal request to restart selling PDFs. I don't care how you do it. Do it on your website, put them on CD's or DVD's and sell them in the local game stores, include them with DDI's, sell them to DDI subscribers. Hell, throw em all on the DVD and have one of the WoTC people come to my house and I'll pay him/her at the door for all I care
I just hope you realize that you are only punishing those that are loyal to you and actually doing things legally. The rest of the people are getting away with exactly what you are trying to prevent.
I for one would love it if WoTC restarted the selling of PDFs. I have several PDFs that I have bought through drivethrurpg.com. I find them of immense value.
For example, let's say that I want to create my own module for my group's own personal use. With a PDF that I would buy from WoTC, I can copy and paste from the source books for whatever I am looking at.
I understand the need to try to prevent people from illegally obtaining the material and I completely agree with it. But now that you have taken away all the LEGAL ways of obtaining PDFs, what exactly do you think the people are doing now? If you guessed downloading them ILLEGALLY? You would be correct? Now, I know that this scenario doesn't apply to everyone.
So here it is WoTC, here is MY personal request to restart selling PDFs. I don't care how you do it. Do it on your website, put them on CD's or DVD's and sell them in the local game stores, include them with DDI's, sell them to DDI subscribers. Hell, throw em all on the DVD and have one of the WoTC people come to my house and I'll pay him/her at the door for all I care
I just hope you realize that you are only punishing those that are loyal to you and actually doing things legally. The rest of the people are getting away with exactly what you are trying to prevent.
Yeah, so THERE WotC!