At this point, Pathfinder threads should be considered spam, complete with warnings and bannings.
A number of the spam threads from the other day were actually started by people seemingly outraged at one or two threads on the topic, and one of those people has since been put on a long vacation from the boards here.
Most of the flaming wasn't coming from anyone promoting Pathfinder, but from a small handful of people throwing a public temper tantrum that someone got PF in their 4e - at least that was how I gathered the situation. Calling anything PF related spam regardless of context, and calling for warnings and bannings is a bit uncalled for, and I'm really surprised to see someone accorded scribe status on the boards here making a statement that exclusionary.
Calling anything PF related spam regardless of context, and calling for warnings and bannings is a bit uncalled for,
All Pathfinder threads are incendiary. They are not 4e. They are not D&D. They are easy to identify. This kind of a policy would take the tightrope evaluation requirements off the Mods' backs. If it's Pathfinder, delete it. It is simple, direct, and quite non-discriminatory. Pro-Pathfinder, anti-Pathfinder, or Pathfinder-neutral -- if it's Pathfinder, delete it. No different that the prohibition on religion, politics, Jack Chick, or Palladium games -- these topics are inherently loaded with divisiveness.
and I'm really surprised to see someone accorded scribe status on the boards here making a statement that exclusionary.
Now that's funny on so many levels, but the current CoC won't even let me explain why I'm laughing.
The mods have a hard enough time determining what is a banable offense as it is. If people are being banned for being on topic about a OTT thread about a fire.
The mods have no clue what is going on in the first place; don't give them something else to be confused with.
It's not confusing. Ban the *subject* -- if it is Pathfinder, delete it. Simple, no evaluation necessary.
They ban politics in the OTT.
Politics are banned period, it isn't just one forum.
Banning Pathfinder as a topic (with the exception of PbP forums; as they'd have legitimate reasons for discussing Pathfinder) wouldn't be anything new.
The thing is that they are off-topic for the 4E General Forum, that means that the incessant posting of such threads is SPAM, which is already against the CoC.
I can understand a thread about Pathfinder popping up there every now and then, but when we get 3 Pathfinder threads on the front page that are all the same topic along with three or four others that is SPAM.
At best, Pathfinder is off topic and disruptive(not unlike religion and politics). At worst, it's passive aggressive edition war trolling.
Edition Wars tend to spring up because 4th fans are hostile to any mention of Pathfinder.
That's like saying traffic accidents happen because people refuse to get out of the way when a car drives across the center line.
Edition Wars tend to spring up because people post about other editions on the 4e General Discussion Board.
It's not about being threatened. It's about being pissed that some folks constantly come onto our 4e discussion board when they don't like 4e, don't play 4e, don't have anything positive to say about 4e, and insist on cluttering the 4e Discussion Board with posts about things other than 4e.
Pathfinder has its own Boards over at Paizo. And they have been very good about shutting down anti-Pathfinder threads (and moving or deleting non-Pathfinder threads on the Pathfinder board).
Edition Wars tend to spring up because 4th fans are hostile to any mention of Pathfinder.
That's like saying traffic accidents happen because people refuse to get out of the way when a car drives across the center line.
Edition Wars tend to spring up because people post about other editions on the 4e General Discussion Board.
It's not about being threatened. It's about being pissed that some folks constantly come onto our 4e discussion board when they don't like 4e, don't play 4e, don't have anything positive to say about 4e, and insist on cluttering the 4e Discussion Board with posts about things other than 4e.
Pathfinder has its own Boards over at Paizo. And they have been very good about shutting down anti-Pathfinder threads (and moving or deleting non-Pathfinder threads on the Pathfinder board).
Getting pissed hardly helps the situation. It's only an issue if you make it one. This is just a bunch of 4th fans bitching about Pathfinder. Your argument about the car accident gave us a few laughs.
I don't feel threatened by talk of Pathfinder; I just feel annoyed, because inevitably someone starts telling me how my fun is BADWRONGFUN.
That, and seriously ... I'm not gonna go to the White Wolf forums to talk about GURPS. I'm not gonna go to the Fantasy Flight forums to talk about Champions. I don't go to a St. Louis Cardinal forum to talk about the Boston Bruins. Why do people come to the D&D forums to talk about Pathfinder? It's simply the wrong venue for the topic.
Posters should be free to talk about Pathfinder.
They are free. On one is asking that pathfinder become a forbidden subject, and I personally do not mind a little discussion on this topic in 4E General Discussion. However after the third thread on the same pathfinder subject being on the front page at the same time along with 4 other pathfinder threads it reaches the point of SPAM.
Edition Wars tend to spring up because 4th fans are hostile to any mention of Pathfinder.
No it is because a minority of the posters personally insult those that do not share their opinion. I know one pro=pathfinder/anti-4E posters that does this constantly and derails most pathfinder threads into personal attacks.
Attempting ban any talk of Pathfinder in the general forums is reckless and helps perpetuate the edition wars.
Considering that edition waring consists of personal attacks and the use if irrational attacks I cannot see a relation.
I'm secure in my love for 4th; no posting or talk of Pathfinder makes me feel threatened.
Talking about pathfinder isn't the actually problem being discussed here. Flooding the 4E General Forum with off-topic pathfinder threads is. I've had no problem with the few pathfinder threads that popped up over the last month, but the flood of SPAM is not the same thing.
Getting pissed hardly helps the situation. It's only an issue if you make it one. This is just a bunch of 4th fans bitching about Pathfinder. Your argument about the car accident gave us a few laughs.
So I'm just a 4th fan bitching about pathfinder huh? This is the same argument that was used during the great edition wars to excuse trolling. Just ignore it and it isn't a problem despite all the discussions we cannot have because they end up locked do to edition waring and threads that end up derailed and locked because posters keep picking fights with each other.
And of course we had those that accused the posters that didn't want edition wars clogging up the majority of the board being accused of just trying to oppress other opinions, despite the edition warring actually preventing enormous amounts of discussion because the threads would all end up locked and then no one could discuss anything.
Or to put it another way, discussing pathfinder on the 4E boards is not the same as engaging in pathfinder edition wars or SPAMming the board.
Edition Wars tend to spring up because 4th fans are hostile to any mention of Pathfinder.
That's like saying traffic accidents happen because people refuse to get out of the way when a car drives across the center line.
Edition Wars tend to spring up because people post about other editions on the 4e General Discussion Board.
It's not about being threatened. It's about being pissed that some folks constantly come onto our 4e discussion board when they don't like 4e, don't play 4e, don't have anything positive to say about 4e, and insist on cluttering the 4e Discussion Board with posts about things other than 4e.
Pathfinder has its own Boards over at Paizo. And they have been very good about shutting down anti-Pathfinder threads (and moving or deleting non-Pathfinder threads on the Pathfinder board).
I've yet to actually see anyone harping on 4e, it's just a few people dogpiling on anyone who dares mention PF. Someone daring to mention that which must not be named isn't taking away anything from you, just ignore the thread. It's not going to take away your 4e books, or the books for whatever your system or edition of choice happens to be. Yet it really seems to get under your skin to the point of hostility; I don't entirely understand it.
EDIT: There's already a number of PF threads located there,along with some that have been moved there by the orcs.
I've yet to actually see anyone harping on 4e
I....um....what?
This behavior is unnecessary and off topic. There is no need to anyone to turn threads in pathfinder edition wars.
For a while, you could start an edition war without mentioning PF by name. Start a thread about how unrealistic healing surges are, or how wizards have been neutered and the regular edition warriors from both sides come a-running. They know an edition war topic without having to mention Pathfinder or third edition by name. I don't know what can be done about that, and that makes me sad because these forums have been poisoned in various forms since I've been here.
I don't feel threatened by talk of Pathfinder; I just feel annoyed, because inevitably someone starts telling me how my fun is BADWRONGFUN.
This. I don't go to the Pathfinder boards to tell them how they are ruining D&D by enjoyng PF. I wish they'd afford me the same courtesy.
This. I don't go to the Pathfinder boards to tell them how they are ruining D&D by enjoyng PF. I wish they'd afford me the same courtesy.
I would love it if they left me the hell alone too. Unfortunately, they feel the need to evangilize, and like most evangilists, all they really seem to do is irritate and denigrate people.
I don't think the forum needs to be moved up. To be fair, Paizo has D&D 4e way at the bottom of thier forum list.
Paizo doesn't have 4E fans spamming 4E topics and praising 4E in Pathfinder threads on the Pathfinder General Discussion forum, and when it does they moderate the crap out of it.
That being said, the mods here seem to have seriously cracked down on the Pathfinder spam in 4E General, and I applaud them for it.
I don't think the forum needs to be moved up. To be fair, Paizo has D&D 4e way at the bottom of thier forum list.
Paizo doesn't have 4E fans spamming 4E topics and praising 4E in Pathfinder threads on the Pathfinder General Discussion forum, and when it does they moderate the crap out of it.
That being said, the mods here seem to have seriously cracked down on the Pathfinder spam in 4E General, and I applaud them for it.
You know why?
They delete it in short order. Heck, they even delete requests to ask their fans to stop being fanataic forum-bombers.
I tested this. 2 mins, 13 seconds, at 1:30 am.
They need to move 4E general down below all other 4E forums. This way new people will see all of the other forums and be more likely to post in the proper forum first...
Kind of on the same subject...
They need to move 4E general down below all other 4E forums. This way new people will see all of the other forums and be more likely to post in the proper forum first...
I cincur. Some of us have been asking for this for almst ten years now.
Future Releases is, to me, a very concrete concept -- it is for the discussion of real-and-specific books that have not yet come out. To me, generic discussion of a hypothetical, not-yet-announced 5e would not intuitively go into Future Releases*. I am not saying that such threads do not belong in Future Releases. Rather, I am saying that such threads do not necessarily go in such a forum by intuitive default.
This is supported by the observation that very few Community Business threads originate in General. Some do, but not that many. Indeed, those that do are usually moved only after someone suggests that the discussion is *probably* more of a ComBus topic. More often than not, the OP even acknowledges with an "oops, that's right" post.
I don't find evidence that folks post on General because it has more traffic (except in those instances where the OP explicitly says so). My experience is that most of the ill-placed posts in General (not counting the 5e threads) are started by relatively new members. This leads me to believe that it is not a traffic-desired decision, but rather, one based on convenience of location location location. (I would even posit that General has more traffic because it is the first forum in the list (default) rather than having the most participants by choice (design).
* I would even suggest that the description blurb for Future Releases should include reference to "hypothetical future releases" *or* that we accept that such discussions are General in nature. Not sure where I would stand on that latter policy, but I would certainly entertain it.
I would even suggest that the description blurb for Future Releases should include reference to "hypothetical future releases" *or* that we accept that such discussions are General in nature. Not sure where I would stand on that latter policy, but I would certainly entertain it.
The current description for Future Releases states:
Want to speculate about what's next in Dungeons & Dragons? Here's the place to discuss teasers and preview and your hopes for the future of the game.
So I think the description very explicitly states the section is for hypothetical future releases. People ignore it. They don't read descriptions. They go to GD. They always have.
This is supported by the observation that very few Community Business threads originate in General.
There are very few Community Bysiness threads at all, and most of them are created by the VCLs and Forum Guides who know to post them in this forum.
I don't find evidence that folks post on General because it has more traffic (except in those instances where the OP explicitly says so). My experience is that most of the ill-placed posts in General (not counting the 5e threads) are started by relatively new members. This leads me to believe that it is not a traffic-desired decision, but rather, one based on convenience of location location location.
I disagree.
Let's go back to General Discussion and take a look at the current threads I think are misplaced...
- Top 10 Races in 4e should be in 4e Races and monsters, by Ultimate Cap (member since 2007)
- Place to Buy/Sell homemade Adventures, should be in GSL, by svendj (member since April 2010)
- Character Builder, should be in Character Builder, by brap8 (member since January 2011)
- Combat pacing and damage, should be in What's a DM to Do?, by Mithrus (member since 2005)
- Die Roll for Ability Score Chreating, should be in House Ruling, by Kroann (member since July 2011)
- Raise Dead and Gold for Discussion should be in WaDMtD? or Rituals, by Runfer_Cover (member since 2006)
- Roles, Mixed or Not, How They Will be in 5th, should be in Future Releases, by thaX (member since 2004)
- What element of 4th will be axed for 5th edition?, should be in Future Releases, by hunterian7 (member since 2008)
- Question on HoS and Poisoners Kit, should be in 4e Rituals, Equiment, and Magic Items, by UltimateCap (member since 2007)
- I am playing the "Red Box" Need Some help!, should be in Rules Q&A or WaPtD?, by Sacrificial Lamb (member since July 2011)
That's 10 of 25 misplaced threads on page 1 of GD. Of these 10, seven were started by people who have been members here for at least a year. Now, I don't blame the other 3 for posting in the wrong place as they are new. But if you've been here for a year, you should realize there are other more appropriate forums.
I believe the reason they post them in GD is because they know they will get more responses there. Obviously I have no direct evidence, because I'm not a mind-reader. But I don't think moving GD to the bottom of the page will change the phenomenon. All that will happen is that some other forum near the top of the page will become the new popular forum where lots of threads get misplaced.
What we need is to move threads and create a mechanism so people can be directed to the right forum.
Looking of the Off-Topic Tavern few forums that belong elsewhere I believe that posters are simply posting in the forum that they spend most of their time on, without thinking if they belong elsewhere.
However, moving the forum down might help, also restoring the description might help as well. It wouldn't likely stop most of them, but a solution doesn't have to be perfect to warrant implementation.