Given that we can't expect stupid people to start drinking smart water to cure their illness, perhaps we can decrease the opportunity for said stupid people to prove their deficiency by moving the General Board further down the Fundamentals page. They will then least be required to scroll past (and maybe even read!) the more specific Boards. Perhaps some of them will even recognize the link between their question and the name of one of those more specific Boards.
Disclaimer 1: If you believe this post is directed at you the reader, trust that it is not. Stupid people wouldn't be able to find the Business Boards even if they knew it existed.
Disclaimer 2: We can't put smilies in the title of threads. Otherwise, I would have.
There was a time way back when when D&D General was at the top of the list, and the same basic problem existed -- everybody was too damn lazy to find the right place for their thread. The forum was moved down to the bottom of the list (I think Future Releases was at the top of the list), and a lot of the traffic for General went away. There were certainly still threads in Future Releases that needed to get moved somewhere else, but the number was really small - one or two a week, as I recall.
The forum with the narrowest topic should be the first one. Rules Q&A and D&D General should be at the very bottom, because those are both more general and prone to lazy people relying on the mods to move things to the right place.
edit: looking at the list of forums, I'd put "4e rituals, equipment, and magic items" at the top of the forum list. It's an active forum, but has a very limited scope, and that scope is quite clear from the name of the forum.
General should be at the bottom of the Fundamentals, with Q&A directly above it.
While moving your General forum is certainly an option, I would guess that improved enforcement would work just as well while not harming traffic to the forum.
My recommendations:
D&D Fundamentals
- 4e Controllers
- 4e Defenders
- 4e Leaders
- 4e Strikers
- 4e Multiclassing, Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies
- 4e Races and Monsters
- 4e Rituals, Equipment & Magic Items
D&D Analysis
- 4e General Discussion
- 4e Character Optimization
- 4e Rules Q&A
- 4e House Rules and Homebrew
- 4e Books Errata
- Sub-Forums: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Adventurer's Vault, Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Martial Power, Draconomicon, Manual of the Planes, Open Grave, Dungeon Delve, Adventures, Player's Handbook 2
D&D Community
- What's a DM to Do?
- What's a Player to Do?
- Campaign and Adventure Workshop
- Astrid's Parlor
- Off-Topic Tavern
4e Combat would be merged into What's a DM to Do?
Character Development would be merged into What's a Player to Do?
House Rules and Homebrew is made 4e-specific and gets moved up next to Rules Q&A. Non 4e homebrewing gets moved to the Previous Edition forums.
I would guess that improved enforcement would work just as well while not harming traffic to the forum.
Doubtful. In [thread=1121028]this thread[/thread] on a daily basis (at least), I request the transfer of off-topic threads from general Discussion elsewhere. Webster usually manages the transfer every two or three days.
Yet, when you have, on average, 13 off-topic threads a day, a bi-weekly transfer schedule is insufficient. For most people with a default of thirty threads displayed per page, that means that within 24 hours, half the displayed threads are off-topic.
I don't think Webby could be much more efficient. GD needs to get moved so it isn't the first D&D-specific forum you see.
That's why I [thread=1154991]recommended[/thread] segregating General Discussion, Character Optimization, Errata and Rules Q&A into a new category called "D&D Analysis"
My recommendations:
D&D Fundamentals
- 4e Controllers
- 4e Defenders
- 4e Leaders
- 4e Strikers
- 4e Multiclassing, Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies
- 4e Races and Monsters
- 4e Rituals, Equipment & Magic Items
D&D Analysis
- 4e General Discussion
- 4e Character Optimization
- 4e Rules Q&A
- 4e House Rules and Homebrew
- 4e Books Errata
- Sub-Forums: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Adventurer's Vault, Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Martial Power, Draconomicon, Manual of the Planes, Open Grave, Dungeon Delve, Adventures, Player's Handbook 2
D&D Community
- What's a DM to Do?
- What's a Player to Do?
- Campaign and Adventure Workshop
- Astrid's Parlor
- Off-Topic Tavern
4e Combat would be merged into What's a DM to Do?
Character Development would be merged into What's a Player to Do?
House Rules and Homebrew is made 4e-specific and gets moved up next to Rules Q&A. Non 4e homebrewing gets moved to the Previous Edition forums.
Really good ideas. Whenever I pop down to Previous Editions for a little CoL-related schadenfreude, I notice that there is a lot of house-rules & homebrew traffic there anyway. Making the current HR&H forum officially for 4e will just help those few stragglers find the forum that will actually give them constructive feedback.
Also, I don't know if wrecan meant to emphasize this, but taking the class names out of the class role forums might be a good idea. The addition of more classes will make the current title scheme increasingly cumbersome.
Doubtful. In [thread=1121028]this thread[/thread] on a daily basis (at least), I request the transfer of off-topic threads from general Discussion elsewhere. Webster usually manages the transfer every two or three days.
Yet, when you have, on average, 13 off-topic threads a day, a bi-weekly transfer schedule is insufficient. For most people with a default of thirty threads displayed per page, that means that within 24 hours, half the displayed threads are off-topic.
I don't think Webby could be much more efficient. GD needs to get moved so it isn't the first D&D-specific forum you see.
Well then I'd say that's proof that you don't have an efficient enough system, now do you....
Doubtful. In [thread=1121028]this thread[/thread] on a daily basis (at least), I request the transfer of off-topic threads from general Discussion elsewhere. Webster usually manages the transfer every two or three days.
Yet, when you have, on average, 13 off-topic threads a day, a bi-weekly transfer schedule is insufficient. For most people with a default of thirty threads displayed per page, that means that within 24 hours, half the displayed threads are off-topic.
I don't think Webby could be much more efficient. GD needs to get moved so it isn't the first D&D-specific forum you see.
You said it yourself, though--once every few days is insufficient enforcement to make an impact.
Moving threads works if it's done regularly enough that the average user gets the idea, but when it's not done often enough, the number of threads gets out of hand and things spiral out of control, and what would have been sufficient to start with is no longer sufficient, and you have to work even harder to get things back to their previous level.
Yes, crippling the forum's traffic by moving it to the bottom is an option. But it will upset a lot of people, and it won't help correct the underlying problem: people not knowing where they should be putting their threads, or thinking that it doesn't matter.
You said it yourself, though--once every few days is insufficient enforcement to make an impact.
You'd need a full time employee whose only job is to move inappropriate threads on the D&D forum. I don't think that's a wise investment for Wizards to make. It's not a job that can be accomplished by volunteers.
Having General Discussion at the bottom was how the forum worked for nigh on five years. GD at the top has been the standard for about one year. I think the forum will handle it if it gets moved.
Also, "4e" has to stay on the Fundamentals forums. Those forums are the 4e-specific forums and before "4e" was added, it was in invitation for edition wars with people arguing if the 4e nerfed 3e wizards, and if the 4e fighters were true to the game's spirit. It as a mess and a disaster. There is no way we should ever drop the 4e from those forum titles (at least not until 5e come around).
Moving threads works if it's done regularly enough that the average user gets the idea
In my experience 90% of the inappropriately placed threads are from people who have never posted before, and likely won't post much again. They're people who had an issue in a game and are seeking advice. They have little incentive to peruse the forums because they are looking for a quick in-quick out. Moving the GD forum down works well, because these people aren't looking to post in the wrong area, but nor are they willing to spend much time looking for the right one. They'll just post in the first forum that appears ontopic. GD is always going to appear on-topic, so it's bet they see that last, after scrolling past other forums that might catch their eyes.
it won't help correct the underlying problem: people not knowing where they should be putting their threads, or thinking that it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter... to them, because most of the problems are from non-regular posters. Nor can we teach someone.
The D&D forums have a peculiar population. A vast majority of people who join, post once or twice and leave once they get their answer, and a sizable dedicated minority who come to converse, design and kibbitz. The latter generally post in the right spot, but their posts can be buried under an avalanche from the first.
If you can think of a good way to get people to post in the right area, who are coming into the forums just to post one quick question and then never return, without moving GD, I'm open to suggestions.
Yes, crippling the forum's traffic by moving it to the bottom is an option.
Those of us who participate actively in D&D General do not feel it would in any way "cripple" General traffic. It would control it.
Zammm, why do you feel a need to object to a request concerning a Board you do not use?
wrecan/Zherog: So how do we actually accomplish such a move? Who do we need to contact so that this isn't just another thread ******* into the wind of "nobody hears you"?
I think the volume of inappropriate traffic is beginning to interfere with the operation of the GD forum.
This is so appropriate no matter how you choose to read it!
Thanks for pursuing this, wrecan.
You'd need a full time employee whose only job is to move inappropriate threads on the D&D forum. I don't think that's a wise investment for Wizards to make. It's not a job that can be accomplished by volunteers.
I disagree with this belief.
The D&D forums have a peculiar population. A vast majority of people who join, post once or twice and leave once they get their answer, and a sizable dedicated minority who come to converse, design and kibbitz. The latter generally post in the right spot, but their posts can be buried under an avalanche from the first.
If you can think of a good way to get people to post in the right area, who are coming into the forums just to post one quick question and then never return, without moving GD, I'm open to suggestions.
I just suggested it: increased enforcement of existing guidelines.
Like D&D, the Magic boards have a large population of transient posters who come onto the boards solely to ask specific questions because of issues they had in one of their games, as well as a large number who come to post a thread asking for deck advice and then never really post again. But unlike on the D&D boards, for the most part they post in the correct areas.
Since I doubt there's some inherent difference in attitude between D&D players and Magic players that might lead to the former being less choosy about their thread placement than the latter, I'm guessing it's a matter of forum management.
Zammm, why do you feel a need to object to a request concerning a Board you do not use?
Honestly, because I'm a meddler at heart. I feel a great need to play devil's advocate if I believe that the other view isn't being given proper consideration or understanding.
I'm pretty certain what moving the Magic General forum to the bottom of the index would do to that forum. (Neuter it.) Thus, when I see that solution being touted as the most reasonable option to solve a similar forum's problems, as though no other solution is viable and without significant evidence thereof, I feel the need to comment.
I disagree with this belief.
I will trust my actual experience with how these boards have functioned against your beliefs.
increased enforcement of existing guidelines.
Which requires someone on-call on a constant basis to enforce those guidelines. Since we get on average 15 off-topic posts a day, it would require someone to move the threads at least twice a day to ensure that it takes place. That is not something we can accomplish with volunteers.
Like D&D, the Magic boards have a large population of transient posters who come onto the boards solely to ask specific questions because of issues they had in one of their games, as well as a large number who come to post a thread asking for deck advice and then never really post again. But unlike on the D&D boards, for the most part they post in the correct areas.
Since I doubt there's some inherent difference in attitude between D&D players and Magic players that might lead to the former being less choosy about their thread placement than the latter, I'm guessing it's a matter of forum management.
I think you have an erroneous assumption. Magic General has a much more specific focus than D&D General. In essence you have three categories: deck building, rules issues, everything else.
D&D is a different game and not as amenable to organization along the lines that M:tG is organized. (Though if you have an idea for such an organization, I'm open to it.)
I'm pretty certain what moving the Magic General forum to the bottom of the index would do to that forum. (Neuter it.)
Sure, because why should you make someone dig through thirty deck-critique forums to talk about problems with the gaming group.
But we're not putting GD at the bottom fo the forum. We're putting it to the top of the second category, and placing the 4e mechanics forums above it because most of the off-topic threads are mechanics issues.
People normally follow that path of least resistance and that forum being at the top causes people to post there instead of elsewhere because it is simply easier, that scrolling down and deciding which other forum that the post would apply in.
For evidence of the reorganization being necessary I suggest threads that need moved be posted here and the total days/thread tallied. With all that the need for the move should become clear.
Which requires someone on-call on a constant basis to enforce those guidelines. Since we get on average 15 off-topic posts a day, it would require someone to move the threads at least twice a day to ensure that it takes place. That is not something we can accomplish with volunteers.
I disagree. It may be more than one volunteer can accomplish, but it's not beyond the reach of volunteers.
I think you have an erroneous assumption. Magic General has a much more specific focus than D&D General. In essence you have three categories: deck building, rules issues, everything else.
You're oversimplifying things immensely; I could just as well say that D&D has character creation, rules issues, and everything else.
But we're not putting GD at the bottom fo the forum. We're putting it to the top of the second category, and placing the 4e mechanics forums above it because most of the off-topic threads are mechanics issues.
My apologies; I think there's been a misunderstanding here. My reaction was based mainly on Zherog's "should be at the very bottom" comment. I took that to mean "at the bottom of the D&D section", which would place it about a mile or so down the page. If Z wasn't advocating that, then my neutering objection is mostly inapplicable.
I still believe increased enforcement is a viable potential solution that deserves consideration, but simply moving it under a few of the more specific forums is far less damaging than moving it to the bottom of the entire index.
I disagree. It may be more than one volunteer can accomplish, but it's not beyond the reach of volunteers.
Explain to me the process we could set up using only volunteers to fix this problem.
I could just as well say that D&D has character creation, rules issues, and everything else.
Except that's not how the boards are organized. I described the three categories of forums. We could organize the forums into Character creation, rules and General, except that General would then absorb the DM's board and the player's board and Astrid's and the RPG forums and the forums for the various campaign settings and the previous edition boards, and would have close to 500 active threads a day, making it even less workable than it is now.
That's why it can't be like the MtG forums. MtG can have a bunch of forums on rules and a bunch of forums for deck building. Everything else can go to General without overwhelming the one forum. it's simple and elegant and it works well.
But D&D won't work well with that forum. It has at least six separate categories of forums: Character Building, Rules, Table Management (DM, players, Astrid's), Worlds, Technology, RPGs and Prior Editions. Now, RPGs could be moved elsewhere, I guess. So could the Community Business forums (which I didn't include in my categories).
But the other categories have to be separate because combined they would overwhelm whatever miscellaneous forum there is to group them together.
I still believe increased enforcement is a viable potential solution that deserves consideration
I'd love to consider it, but I'd need a more specific proposal to consider. "Have volunteers do it" really isn't constructive because I have no idea how those volunteers are supposed to help.
Explain to me the process we could set up using only volunteers to fix this problem.
Have more than one person who can make requests. You said that you yourself put up lists of threads that should be moved daily--if those were actual official requests rather than just a heads-up to Webster for him to get to when he can, it could make for a significant improvement.
That's why it can't be like the MtG forums. MtG can have a bunch of forums on rules and a bunch of forums for deck building. Everything else can go to General without overwhelming the one forum. it's simple and elegant and it works well.
No, it can't. It just doesn't work, for the same reasons that doing the same to the D&D forums doesn't work--there's just too much else to put it all in one place. Which is my point.
...I'm starting to feel like I'm stepping on Webster's toes here, so I think I'm going to refrain from responding to this thread further. This isn't my area of the boards, after all, so my opinion is secondary. I don't want to seem like I'm coming down from on high to dictate terms or anything here.
My apologies; I think there's been a misunderstanding here. My reaction was based mainly on Zherog's "should be at the very bottom" comment. I took that to mean "at the bottom of the D&D section", which would place it about a mile or so down the page. If Z wasn't advocating that, then my neutering objection is mostly inapplicable.
I did in fact mean the bottom of the section. Down at the very bottom - where all the archived forums are located - wouldn't make much sense. ;)
We had it moved there before when we had similar issues and it worked well. Didn't stop all wrong postings to go there but here is the problem.
Yes, I can step up move requests but a move really doesn't tell someone they posted in the wrong place. The assumption is someone will come along and move incorrectly placed threads in the right forum, so no effort is really needed.
Now, if you want enforcement to make people post in the right forum- rather than moving threads, how about outright closing them? That will get people's attention! :D
rather than moving threads, how about outright closing them?
Seconded.
Amendment: Each closing will include instruction on which Board is more appropriate.
Caveat: Seconded only if this is in addition to moving General.
;)
(I was responding to Seeker, though.)
Explain to me the process we could set up using only volunteers to fix this problem.
Umm...same way they used to do back in the days the Gamespy forums were actually worthwhile. Get the board monitors to hold elections, one volunteer for each board. If the ORCs (or whatever they're being called now) would allow this, I'll throw my hat in the ring for General Discussion.
It wouldn't replace moving the forum down, as that addresses the root of the problem. But it seems mighty inefficient, and downright silly, to make a process take two steps when it could easily take one.
) I could do it all myself, but where's the fun in that? :D
If the powers that be wanted things done instantly, I'd be able to log on under my other name and just move them myself but that's not how the powers that be want things done so this is what we have to work with.
Sort of backwards that way as wrecan is helping me out by assembling those lists. (I'm the one that decides what gets moved and so on. 99% of the time I agree with what's suggested.
I could do it all myself, but where's the fun in that? :D
If the powers that be wanted things done instantly, I'd be able to log on under my other name and just move them myself but that's not how the powers that be want things done so this is what we have to work with.
Dear Webster, don't you see? wrecan isn't just helping you, he's doing the work for you. He makes the list that you agree on 99% of the time, is the 1% that you don't agree on so significant that it's worth slowing the entire process to the point where it's diminishing the community experience? Are TPTB really that against having another D&D area VCL, or are you just one of those folks who isn't comfortable sharing responsibility ;)?
Allow me to elaborate. You can be VCL. wrecan can be VCL. He can continue to generate his huge list of thread moves, but skip the delay waiting for you to approve them. You can continue approving requests made by other folks on the request thread, with his help, and you can continue doing all the other work that you do. Two people who know what they are doing are helping the area. Things are done faster. Things are more efficient. Where is the negative?
well that ruins that perfectly good idea then. Too bad, our loss!There are advantages to the system as it is now.
The process allows people to see what's going on. I doubt people check the list sent to the ORCs, but they do check the VCL request list. More than once someone has jumped in with "Shouldn't that go on the what's a player to do board instead?". Public input helps keep the community involved.
Plus, I'm the filter for all of it. Sometimes a thread move will be requested multiple times by different people.
The list is huge because it gets updated.
(Sometimes while I'm processing the list!) Hopefully the board will be moved to cut back the number of thread moves.
As for the speed, I'm not sure what the impact would be- when I send them on up to the ORCs, it's during a "quiet" time when there's not as many reports going in. Remember, CoC issues and other CS issues take priority. That means VCL requests get bumped to the bottom of the to do list and if something new comes in, it continues to get to the bottom. I've noticed my lists get processed at a later time during the day and prime time hours than if it's sent to the overnight folks.
The other thing is housekeeping (thread moves and the like) are not emergency, "must be done right now!" types of priorities.
Although, I do like the idea of wrecan as a VCL..
I don't want to be a VCL. I'm happy where I am.
LOL. Of course, because it all falls on my head in the end. :D "What? I just suggested the thread move. Webster's the one that does it!"
(Heh, I don't mind, though.)
I don't know what a sesquipedalian is, ...
The dictionary is your friend.
I'm pretty certain what moving the Magic General forum to the bottom of the index would do to that forum. (Neuter it.) Thus, when I see that solution being touted as the most reasonable option to solve a similar forum's problems, as though no other solution is viable and without significant evidence thereof, I feel the need to comment.
In a similar situation for Magic, the General Forum would have two forums above it, instead of being on top as it is now.
There just isn't the same organization on the two boards, despite the similarity in names for Magic General and 4e General Discussion. Magic has four non-competitive deck-building forums, with three of them being narrower versions of the first. D&D has five, with an additional forum for the character's in-game tactics, and another forum for races in general, which turns into building characters.
But Magic has six competitive deck-building forums, (and sub-forums listing proven decks) while D&D has one for competitive character building.
In a similar situation for Magic, the General Forum would have two forums above it, instead of being on top as it is now[...]
As explained above, I had misread Zherog's suggestion.
A week ago, 9 of the first 25 were moved.
Two weeks ago, I believe it was 13 of the first 25.
Please push higher up the idea of moving the location of the General Board somewhere further down the D&D Forums list.
It would help immensely if this were done.
It certianly can be done. The question is 'do they care?'.
Course not, they're too busy eating babies and playing at gods to care about us mortal folk.
It certianly can be done. The question is 'do they care?'.
Course not, they're too busy eating babies and playing at gods to care about us mortal folk.
more like they are too busy dealing with a ruckus in another part of the forums.....
more like they are too busy dealing with a ruckus in another part of the forums.....
where?
where?
In the Star Wars area....dealing with moderation....
and I think it does need to be moved too
Not that it was intended to but, the current placement of the General Board does seem to buffer the rest of the forums from as many misdirected posts. As it is "general" it is always going to be a magnet for some posters disinterested in spending the time to figure out where it really should go. As things are now, it seems like an accurately posted topic anywhere else enjoys a better chance of being read by the appropriate audience.
Perhaps the general board is even the sacrificial lamb for the rest of the forums intentionally?
Something just occured to me, is this an issue for theCommunity HQ/Community Business board?I'm a Forum Guide and for the life of me I can't figure out the difference between that forum and this one.
If I had to guess, it's to give one overall place to deal with things that affect all the boards, not just one section or community on them.
Or it's an example of the Department of Redundancy Department at work. Your pick. ;)
I'll give another reminder to move the board down the list.
Actually, there's also community boards for Magic online and magic as well as Star Wars.
I'll give another reminder to move the board down the list.
General Gaming has one as well.
11 of 25 non-stickied threads on the front page of General were moved.