Puzzled Gamer - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Puzzled Gamer

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
waddo
May 28, 2009 22:05:06 I may be the guy with the old news but I was just about to top up on some material from an online sales shop and found that the PDF sales had gone. I came to this web site and started to look through the forums and found where the discussion was taking place. I followed it through the jump to a new forum and then to the next (Dead End) jump. It seems to me that I read a very true statement. If you did not want to play 4E and buy stuff in a bricks and mortar store your are not part of the target audience anymore. I am 42 and have been playing (and buying) D&D stuff through various versions during this whole time. I have even been buying the stuff from the last 2 versions although I was not playing these. I found with a little work they were real assets to my game world. I am just horrified that it has been made harder for me to play the game that has accompanied my whole adult life. I earn a lot of money and spend a reasonable amount on game stuff. I am a busy business person and cannot understand the alienation of customers through this arbitrary removal of valuable source material which also produced at least in regards to me expenditure on the newer versions as well. As I have now had my ability to do this taken away I will be withdrawing my support for any new stuff. I have enough older stuff to keep me busy and will just have to devote some more time to creation. I was also just in the middle of organising to help the kids of myself and my fellow gamers into the pen and paper version of their PC games. I will not be doing this and will encourage them to continue on with their world of warcraft etc. So much for the next generation.

I suppose my point is that it seems to me to have been a greedy marketing tactic that will actuall have the potential to lessen sales and loose new recruits to th egame I have loved my whole adult life .

On top of this the conversation on this seems to have been cut to avoid self analysis and understanding of the situation by the people who made the decision?

Puzzled Gamer
#2
traeplien777
May 30, 2009 16:24:04 I'm gonna assume this was meant to instigate one of the so-called "edition wars", because otherwise your story doesn't make much sense. However, I'll respond by giving you the benefit of the doubt.

First off, I'm sorry you don't find the support for the old editions you have been playing. Based on the statement that you own material from the "past two versions" but haven't played them, I'm assuming you're playing either 2e or AD&D. In that case, I'm sorry to say it, but when you chose to continue with that version, you should have expected a lack of support. It is simply not feasible for a company to continue supporting and producing for each of a system's previous versions as well as the current one. It is for this reason that companies such as Microsoft do not continue supporting previous versions of their operating systems and applications. Unfortunately for people who like those previous editions, that means that all support from then on is from third-party sources. That's just the evolution of a product.

Secondly, you seem to have a strong dislike for 4th Edition. If this is the case, may I ask why?

Thirdly, and I'm sorry to be rude, but you have no right to complain about the "next generation" or lack thereof. It was YOUR choice not to teach those kids how to play, and leave them to their MMO's and console games instead. If a lack of PDF sales and support for previous editions is enough for you to withhold the joy of pen and paper gaming from your children and your friends' children, then I have to question just how much interest you have in the spreading of the hobby.

Finally, all quoted sales figures show increasing numbers of sales as far as I'm aware. The Player's Handbook 2 made the Wall Street Journal's bestseller list in non-fiction. The conversation was not cut to avoid self-analysis, but because there was a serious amount of blatantly false information and inflammatory opinions being spread around as fact, so WotC made their statements and closed the discussion. Actually, a very sound business decision on their part. I'm sorry to hear you took it so offensively.

I wish you the best, and hope that you might reconsider your decision on distancing yourself from the company and game you've "loved your whole adult life".
#3
Seeker95
May 30, 2009 16:31:06 Interesting how a "new to the site" gamer can find closed discussions on a topic buried four or five pages deep on any given forum. Also interesting how a 42-year-old gamer with lots of disposable income can conclude that the lack of PDFs is somehow a roadblock to his ability to play the game. Oh well.

(My sympathy meter runs very low on this topic.)
#4
waddo
May 30, 2009 17:27:58 Thanks for the feed back guys maybe my message was not actually getting through. I am not trying to start an edition war more power to wizards for being forward thinking and progressive. I totally agree that continuing to play 2e is mine and my groups choice and am perfectly fine with our decision which is a discussion for another time. I have used source material from just about every edition published going back to the keep and the border lands. I was merely expressing my disappointment in the arbitrary way that the company has made the valuable resource of old edition PDF stuff now unavailable. I was trying to say that when I have had a need to buy this stuff I have more often than not left my online store having purchased several new version source items as well which I can easily convert to what ever version I want to play. Now that I know I cannot get the target items I am less likely to buy the new stuff for several reasons. 1. I will be less inclined to search the online stores knowing that I cannot get my target items and hence will not leave that online store with all the new goodies as well. 2. I feel slightly put off by the all controlling attitude of if you don't want to play our version you don't get to buy any of the other stuff you want either.

With regards to the next generation I was certainly not having a swipe at them my comment was merely relating to my personal circumstances discussed in my original post. Although I take the point of depriving them etc it was well made and I will give it some thought. The hurdle being that kids are kids and although I may have disposable income they definitely do not have enough to continue to update all their stuff as version after version changes.

In relation to the snipe at the new to the site etc. I have been visiting this site for a long time and have found may things of value and interest. I am not a noob just because I have not chosen to post in the forums. In fact I would think the fact that I have posted shows how passionate I am about this issue. I have also been a member of other forums and understand how to find a topic and follow it so no mystery there regarding the ability to track a discussion through a board. I am not sure of my exact wording but the thread bounced around and then stopped even though it had an obvious community interest.

As it was so long I did not get to read all the posts. It would help me greatly to understand why this decision was take? Perhaps Scribe you could give me the benefit of the doubt also and instead of throwing a back hander at me try and help me understand why this situation occured?

Just to be absolutely clear. NOT ANTI 4E or YOUNGER GAMERS.
#5
Seeker95
May 30, 2009 21:55:31
I am not a noob just because I have not chosen to post in the forums. In fact I would think the fact that I have posted shows how passionate I am about this issue.

That was my point, actually. Although your screen name is brand new today, you posted on a topic that indicates you are anything but a noob. That your first post was on an incendiary subject lends additional evidence to this assumption.
Perhaps Scribe you could give me the benefit of the doubt also and instead of throwing a back hander at me try and help me understand why this situation occurred?

I can help you understand why this situation occurred no better than simply reading through the threads you have already discovered can. But as for granting the benefit of the doubt... not gonna happen. You admit you are not a noob. You acknowledge that you are familiar with forums. Yet you still chose as your first post a thread on a topic you already know is incendiary, divisive, and controversial. You have removed doubt.
#6
jim_darkmagic_fanboy_dup
May 31, 2009 2:33:54 WotC banned the sale of pdfs because it, supposedly, increases piracy. I say supposedly because the books are still out there, they just take a week to get uploaded (as many posters in topics such as these have researched and pointed out). Of course, WotC could just delay the release of the pdf versions by a few weeks and solve the problem of the initial sales of a given book being lower because of the ease of transferring the book in digital format.

After a few weeks the point becomes moot as the pirated books are out there, leaving people like yourself with 3 options: Buy the real book, pirate the book or leave D&D for greener pastures.

I would love for legal pdfs to return but I won't hold my breath.
#7
waddo
May 31, 2009 5:33:17 Thanks Jim nice to get a straight and unaccusing response to a query that was a real question.

As for debating the scribe man on a Forum I will leave to others with more time on their hands. I have the answer to my question and have made my feelings known. Divisive or not that the way I felt.

Thanks Jim.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 waddo May 28, 2009 22:05:06	I may be the guy with the old news but I was just about to top up on some material from an online sales shop and found that the PDF sales had gone. I came to this web site and started to look through the forums and found where the discussion was taking place. I followed it through the jump to a new forum and then to the next (Dead End) jump. It seems to me that I read a very true statement. If you did not want to play 4E and buy stuff in a bricks and mortar store your are not part of the target audience anymore. I am 42 and have been playing (and buying) D&D stuff through various versions during this whole time. I have even been buying the stuff from the last 2 versions although I was not playing these. I found with a little work they were real assets to my game world. I am just horrified that it has been made harder for me to play the game that has accompanied my whole adult life. I earn a lot of money and spend a reasonable amount on game stuff. I am a busy business person and cannot understand the alienation of customers through this arbitrary removal of valuable source material which also produced at least in regards to me expenditure on the newer versions as well. As I have now had my ability to do this taken away I will be withdrawing my support for any new stuff. I have enough older stuff to keep me busy and will just have to devote some more time to creation. I was also just in the middle of organising to help the kids of myself and my fellow gamers into the pen and paper version of their PC games. I will not be doing this and will encourage them to continue on with their world of warcraft etc. So much for the next generation. I suppose my point is that it seems to me to have been a greedy marketing tactic that will actuall have the potential to lessen sales and loose new recruits to th egame I have loved my whole adult life . On top of this the conversation on this seems to have been cut to avoid self analysis and understanding of the situation by the people who made the decision? Puzzled Gamer
#2 traeplien777 May 30, 2009 16:24:04	I'm gonna assume this was meant to instigate one of the so-called "edition wars", because otherwise your story doesn't make much sense. However, I'll respond by giving you the benefit of the doubt. First off, I'm sorry you don't find the support for the old editions you have been playing. Based on the statement that you own material from the "past two versions" but haven't played them, I'm assuming you're playing either 2e or AD&D. In that case, I'm sorry to say it, but when you chose to continue with that version, you should have expected a lack of support. It is simply not feasible for a company to continue supporting and producing for each of a system's previous versions as well as the current one. It is for this reason that companies such as Microsoft do not continue supporting previous versions of their operating systems and applications. Unfortunately for people who like those previous editions, that means that all support from then on is from third-party sources. That's just the evolution of a product. Secondly, you seem to have a strong dislike for 4th Edition. If this is the case, may I ask why? Thirdly, and I'm sorry to be rude, but you have no right to complain about the "next generation" or lack thereof. It was YOUR choice not to teach those kids how to play, and leave them to their MMO's and console games instead. If a lack of PDF sales and support for previous editions is enough for you to withhold the joy of pen and paper gaming from your children and your friends' children, then I have to question just how much interest you have in the spreading of the hobby. Finally, all quoted sales figures show increasing numbers of sales as far as I'm aware. The Player's Handbook 2 made the Wall Street Journal's bestseller list in non-fiction. The conversation was not cut to avoid self-analysis, but because there was a serious amount of blatantly false information and inflammatory opinions being spread around as fact, so WotC made their statements and closed the discussion. Actually, a very sound business decision on their part. I'm sorry to hear you took it so offensively. I wish you the best, and hope that you might reconsider your decision on distancing yourself from the company and game you've "loved your whole adult life".
#3 Seeker95 May 30, 2009 16:31:06	Interesting how a "new to the site" gamer can find closed discussions on a topic buried four or five pages deep on any given forum. Also interesting how a 42-year-old gamer with lots of disposable income can conclude that the lack of PDFs is somehow a roadblock to his ability to play the game. Oh well. (My sympathy meter runs very low on this topic.)
#4 waddo May 30, 2009 17:27:58	Thanks for the feed back guys maybe my message was not actually getting through. I am not trying to start an edition war more power to wizards for being forward thinking and progressive. I totally agree that continuing to play 2e is mine and my groups choice and am perfectly fine with our decision which is a discussion for another time. I have used source material from just about every edition published going back to the keep and the border lands. I was merely expressing my disappointment in the arbitrary way that the company has made the valuable resource of old edition PDF stuff now unavailable. I was trying to say that when I have had a need to buy this stuff I have more often than not left my online store having purchased several new version source items as well which I can easily convert to what ever version I want to play. Now that I know I cannot get the target items I am less likely to buy the new stuff for several reasons. 1. I will be less inclined to search the online stores knowing that I cannot get my target items and hence will not leave that online store with all the new goodies as well. 2. I feel slightly put off by the all controlling attitude of if you don't want to play our version you don't get to buy any of the other stuff you want either. With regards to the next generation I was certainly not having a swipe at them my comment was merely relating to my personal circumstances discussed in my original post. Although I take the point of depriving them etc it was well made and I will give it some thought. The hurdle being that kids are kids and although I may have disposable income they definitely do not have enough to continue to update all their stuff as version after version changes. In relation to the snipe at the new to the site etc. I have been visiting this site for a long time and have found may things of value and interest. I am not a noob just because I have not chosen to post in the forums. In fact I would think the fact that I have posted shows how passionate I am about this issue. I have also been a member of other forums and understand how to find a topic and follow it so no mystery there regarding the ability to track a discussion through a board. I am not sure of my exact wording but the thread bounced around and then stopped even though it had an obvious community interest. As it was so long I did not get to read all the posts. It would help me greatly to understand why this decision was take? Perhaps Scribe you could give me the benefit of the doubt also and instead of throwing a back hander at me try and help me understand why this situation occured? Just to be absolutely clear. NOT ANTI 4E or YOUNGER GAMERS.
#5 Seeker95 May 30, 2009 21:55:31	I am not a noob just because I have not chosen to post in the forums. In fact I would think the fact that I have posted shows how passionate I am about this issue. That was my point, actually. Although your screen name is brand new today, you posted on a topic that indicates you are anything but a noob. That your first post was on an incendiary subject lends additional evidence to this assumption. Perhaps Scribe you could give me the benefit of the doubt also and instead of throwing a back hander at me try and help me understand why this situation occurred? I can help you understand why this situation occurred no better than simply reading through the threads you have already discovered can. But as for granting the benefit of the doubt... not gonna happen. You admit you are not a noob. You acknowledge that you are familiar with forums. Yet you still chose as your first post a thread on a topic you already know is incendiary, divisive, and controversial. You have removed doubt.
#6 jim_darkmagic_fanboy_dup May 31, 2009 2:33:54	WotC banned the sale of pdfs because it, supposedly, increases piracy. I say supposedly because the books are still out there, they just take a week to get uploaded (as many posters in topics such as these have researched and pointed out). Of course, WotC could just delay the release of the pdf versions by a few weeks and solve the problem of the initial sales of a given book being lower because of the ease of transferring the book in digital format. After a few weeks the point becomes moot as the pirated books are out there, leaving people like yourself with 3 options: Buy the real book, pirate the book or leave D&D for greener pastures. I would love for legal pdfs to return but I won't hold my breath.
#7 waddo May 31, 2009 5:33:17	Thanks Jim nice to get a straight and unaccusing response to a query that was a real question. As for debating the scribe man on a Forum I will leave to others with more time on their hands. I have the answer to my question and have made my feelings known. Divisive or not that the way I felt. Thanks Jim.