WotC_RichBaker;16179475 wrote:
This stuff's been allowed to go on FAR too long.
The fun is lost there, the atmosphere is unpleasant.
I mean, there's some negativity on other boards but it was really ugly, as in it seemed that people were genuinely upset not something like someone posting "$ Edition" or whatever, back on the Forgotten Realms boards.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violations, click on the red "exclamation" icon by the post, this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
Please report any violations of the Code of Conduct, so that moderators are made aware of them.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violations, click on the red "exclamation" icon by the post, this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
These basically canned responses are becoming disheartening. It's like dialing up a company and getting their computer response system.
Your own creators are getting fed up with the situation on these forums.
It's time to take notice and do something about this. Can you feel the precipice?
That is, they wait to be informed by the community of any action a community member perceives is a violation of the CoC, then they review the issue to see if it is in fact a problem that requires action.
So Chaos is just basically repeating that passive stance. He/She is saying it's up to us to get a fix going (by reporting it).
I believe it is that stance that is contributing to the problem, however, because the Ask the Designer's Thread can and is being derailed by more than just CoC violations. The off-topic chat alone causes no end of inconvenience to the people that come to it to interact and find information.
This is why I asked for a proactive effort by that part of WotC that is responsible for moderating and operating the forums. I believe WotC needs to restructure some part of its moderating schedule and resources to put that thread back on track, by aggressively reminding (and warning, for repeat offenders) people to keep to the topic of the thread, because of that thread's value to the community.
No single moderator that is at all familiar with the FR Forums can say with a straight face that the Ask the Designer's thread is uncluttered and on topic.
Asking the community to report CoC violations is not, in my opinion, a sufficient solution to curb the problems on that thread.
The seeming canned responses are there for a reason, but know that the CS department DOES care.
Rather than try to clean up that thread, I think it's time to start a new one.
(One that can be watched.)
Rather than try to clean up that thread, I think it's time to start a new one.
(One that can be watched.)
Sounds good to me. I just hope the 'watching' carries over to the rest of the FR forum.
I don't have high hopes things will be all well and good when the 4E FRCS comes out in August.
I do however agree that the "Ask Rich Baker" thread should be more heavily watched, and any post that isn't a question directed towards him be removed. I personally don't care about the thread, but others do and I'm willing to let them have it.
As for the negativity, good luck getting rid of that. A lot of posters are upset with the destruction of FR. Not letting them post their opinions, and letting the pro side post theirs' is wrong. I personally hate all the changes that are being made to FR, and I say far worse about it's designers than anything I may have typed. In fact, I haven't really posted much lately because I'm so disgusted with what's happening. If you don't let WotC know what you dislike, how do you expect them to improve their products.
Please, give the creators the chance to at least present their stuff, and be constructive in your critics.
As long as a post doesn't violate the CoC, there's not really much they can do. The WizOs read threads and moderate as needed, and the reporting system is in place to help them in case they miss anything.
I do however agree that the "Ask Rich Baker" thread should be more heavily watched, and any post that isn't a question directed towards him be removed. I personally don't care about the thread, but others do and I'm willing to let them have it.
As for the negativity, good luck getting rid of that. A lot of posters are upset with the destruction of FR. Not letting them post their opinions, and letting the pro side post theirs' is wrong. I personally hate all the changes that are being made to FR, and I say far worse about it's designers than anything I may have typed. In fact, I haven't really posted much lately because I'm so disgusted with what's happening. If you don't let WotC know what you dislike, how do you expect them to improve their products.
By now everyone and their grandma knows that a certain kind of FR fan is disgusted and appalled. The reiterations have gotten old since spring.
As for the negativity, good luck getting rid of that. A lot of posters are upset with the destruction of FR. Not letting them post their opinions, and letting the pro side post theirs' is wrong. I personally hate all the changes that are being made to FR, and I say far worse about it's designers than anything I may have typed. In fact, I haven't really posted much lately because I'm so disgusted with what's happening. If you don't let WotC know what you dislike, how do you expect them to improve their products.
Posting one's opinion about their dislikes about a setting is all fine and well but it's when those posts become hateful, spiteful, and disrupting to the community is when it becomes a problem. Often I see the anti-4E throw out insulting remarks about the system, designers, and setting for no good reason (if there can be a good reason) just for the sake of their disapproval. And then the pro-4E retaliate causing more flamming and vise versa.
By now everyone and their grandma knows that a certain kind of FR fan is disgusted and appalled. The reiterations have gotten old since spring.
You should've been around when we had Novels forums. The authors were roasted constantly by some posters. A lot of them(the authors) left and never came back. We had turned things around on the FR Novels board when WotC's novels dept. decided to axe all the novels boards. Things could be, and have been, worse.
Posting one's opinion about their dislikes about a setting is all fine and well but it's when those posts become hateful, spiteful, and disrupting to the community is when it becomes a problem. Often I see the anti-4E throw out insulting remarks about the system, designers, and setting for no good reason (if there can be a good reason) just for the sake of their disapproval. And then the pro-4E retaliate causing more flamming and vise versa.
And that's when you click the little red and white triangle, that's in the corner of every post, and let the WizOs handle things.
If it was up to me I'd completely shut down the FR forums till August. And wipe them clean.
And that's when you click the little red and white triangle, that's in the corner of every post, and let the WizOs handle things.
Whoa! Is that what that little triangle does? I honestly never knew, lol. Thanks!
Oh I know. I was around, just lurking. I just don't post on hostile forums unless I see a reason. I never posted around here regarding 4E rules and kept to EnWorld where the moderators actually ban flamers on occasion. Moderation in these forums is very lighthanded, but on the other hand if they try otherwise they will only fan the flames higher . . .
If it was up to me I'd completely shut down the FR forums till August. And wipe them clean.
Hey now, my NPC Generator is on there with loads of usable NPCs for people's campaigns. I'd be hard pressed to re-create all of them.
The WotC developers need to update this forum software to include moderated message boards. Posts to these moderated threads would not appear until the moderator approved the message to be shown. This would permit the "Ask the Authors and Designers" thread to remain clutter free.
Well, didn't that was how Regdar's Repository worked?
I agree that it could be a solution, though.
I am not convinced that it is a small number of posters who are displeased by these changes. From what I can tell, the majority of FR fans who post here are displeased.
I agree that no one who is looking forward to the new Realms should be attacked for that opinion and I have never done that at least not purposefully. If someone deems my attack of the 4E Realms as personal just be advised that I do not intend that.
I also agree that it might be a good idea to tone down the negavity of the Ask Rich thread as some of it goes a little too far. But its not going to stop completely. If Rich does not want to deal with negativity than he probably should stop going there. If he is just upset about spitefulness, than I agree that should not happen. Perhaps Iakhovas makes a good point and that should be adopted with "sticky" threads. Makes a lot of sense.
The FR designers must have realized that these drastic changes up a hornet's nest. They must have known that many were going to be very upset about it. They must have been prepared to deal with a lot of backlash.
It's not the negativity per se, but the lack of constructive comments and non-passive aggressive questions that's bringing it down.
There's no much you can do about negativity. People feel what they feel. but maybe the Developer thread should be heavily modded to remove non-constructive comments (to be determined at the discretion of the VCL)
Otherwise, the developers will stop commenting and that's not what anybody wants (I assume).
Personally, I don't care if everybody but Rich Baker is upset at the change. When you have a developer coming into the forums to talk about it, being hit with snarky comments and just general "What you did upsets me" posts is non-productive.
It may be non-productive. I agree that snarky comments should not be placed there. The "what he did upsets me" comments could be removed as well. But lets face it, Mr. Baker and others just have to deal with it. If they can't handle that kind of comment, then they probably shouldn't post in that thread.
It's not the negativity per se, but the lack of constructive comments and non-passive aggressive questions that's bringing it down.
I agree with that.
There's no much you can do about negativity. People feel what they feel. but maybe the Developer thread should be heavily modded to remove non-constructive comments (to be determined at the discretion of the VCL)
I don't think anything should be done about negativity. I feel very negative about what they have done to the Realms and will say that. But the "Ask Rich" thread is probably not the best place to do that. On other hand, many feel that the designers have done a major disservice to the setting. And I agree with that philosophy. Perhaps, that thread is the best place to get an explanation for it
But lets face it, Mr. Baker and others just have to deal with it. If they can't handle that kind of comment, then they probably shouldn't post in that thread.
So you'd rather NOT have the ear of the developer of the setting you claim you are passionate about? That seems like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
Perhaps, that thread is the best place to get an explanation for it
How will you "get an explanation" if you drive away the developer?
That seems really short sighted.
There are many ways to ask questions that aren't hostile or even passively aggressive.
So you'd rather NOT have the ear of the developer of the setting you claim you are passionate about? That seems like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
How will you "get an explanation" if you drive away the developer?
That seems really short sighted.
There are many ways to ask questions that aren't hostile or even passively aggressive.
I never said I want to drive him away. All I meant was that if he has a problem with negativity that probably won't go away and he will probably wind up leaving
in other words, I think Rich should be able to handle comments such as "Mr. Baker I am disappointed X was done to the Realms. I do not like that and would like to know why the designers did this?" I think thats a fair thing to say and I think Rich should and has handled that
I do not feel that Rich should deal with posts (in that thread only) "Rich you and the rest of the designers suck". If thats the sole prob, then I agree. If we are talking about the first example, I don't
I know that is simplistic but I hope that better explains what I was talking about
But lets face it, Mr. Baker and others just have to deal with it.
Not in the Ask the Developer Thread, no they don't. That thread is a resource for the community. If the community trashes it, then the developer should leave. Then the developer will not have to deal with negativity, but the forums will have lost a unique and valuable resource and will have nobody but themselves to blame.
I don't think anything should be done about negativity.
It which case it will fester and infect everything it touches. If we're going to do nothign abotu negativity as a shrine to the people angry about the changes (whether legitimate or not) we might as well just shut the forums down altogether because they serve absolutely no substantive purpose other to give people a place to bicker and rant.
On other hand, many feel that the designers have done a major disservice to the setting. And I agree with that philosophy. Perhaps, that thread is the best place to get an explanation for it
I don't think an explanation is needed or deserved. I don't see how anythign productive can come from it. The people who like the change don't need the developers wasting time dwelling on a decision that won't be undone. The people who dislike the change are never going to be satisfied with any justification proferred. It's just picking at a scab waiting to see how long it takes to get gangrenous.
Not in the Ask the Developer Thread, no they don't. That thread is a resource for the community. If the community trashes it, then the developer should leave. Then the developer will not have to deal with negativity, but the forums will have lost a unique and valuable resource and will have nobody but themselves to blame.
I essentially agree. I think I explained my position on this.
It which case it will fester and infect everything it touches. If we're going to do nothign abotu negativity as a shrine to the people angry about the changes (whether legitimate or not) we might as well just shut the forums down altogether because they serve absolutely no substantive purpose other to give people a place to bicker and rant.
If the community or members have negative feelings about something they have every right to voice their displeasure in a reasonable manner. So your position is that no one should say something negative about the new setting. That seems ludicrous to me. This is an open forum to discuss D&D both the good and the bad.
I don't think an explanation is needed or deserved. I don't see how anythign productive can come from it. The people who like the change don't need the developers wasting time dwelling on a decision that won't be undone. The people who dislike the change are never going to be satisfied with any justification proferred. It's just picking at a scab waiting to see how long it takes to get gangrenous.
I couldn't disagree more. I and you and everyone else on these boards pay the designers salaries. They owe everyone an explanation. Heck, it may even change the "complainers" minds. If they believe in the product they are putting out, they can certainly have a reasonable debate about it.
I don't think an explanation is needed or deserved. I don't see how anythign productive can come from it. The people who like the change don't need the developers wasting time dwelling on a decision that won't be undone. The people who dislike the change are never going to be satisfied with any justification proferred. It's just picking at a scab waiting to see how long it takes to get gangrenous.
It (focussing negativity at the developers responsible for the change) is, in the end, rather counter-productive.
Rich Baker is, by his own words, considering no longer reading the FR forums. The hate and anger that he is receiving is diminishing the enjoyment he gets from interacting with FR fans.
If you want to try to convince the WotC devs to change somethiong in the Frs (or any setting/gameetc), the idea is to present them with a decent argument on why the change you are proposing is better, not to fling hate and anger at them until they elave the forums and (here is the important part) no longer read the changes.
Drive them away, and guess what, you have guaranteed that any proposed changes from the community, no matter the direction they take, will not get read.
Not "read and then rejected as not in line with the vision of the company".
Not read at all.
There are plenty of threads out for things like that. It should not be allowed in the only place we can go to get answers from a Dev. He does this as a service to us, if we just sit back and let a few people spit on him all the time then he will leave.
People need to grow up, remember that they aren't the only ones who care about the Realms and bite the bullet on this one. Or find a place they can vent that won't ruin our chance to get lore from Rich.
I'm a long time Realms fan and I like what I've seen so far. It might not be what I would have done, but I understand and agree on why the changes were made.
If the community or members have negative feelings about something they have every right to voice their displeasure in a reasonable manner. So your position is that no one should say something negative about the new setting.
No, it isn't. Nobody should say negative things in an unproductive manner in the thread designed for productive discussion with the developer.
I never said the entire FR forum should be purged of negativity. Sheesh.
I and you and everyone else on these boards pay the designers salaries. They owe everyone an explanation. Heck, it may even change the "complainers" minds. If they believe in the product they are putting out, they can certainly have a reasonable debate about it.
The only thing a customer is owed is the product for which they paid. Neither you, I nor any customer is owed an explanation for that product and it's the height of arrogance to think we are owed such a thing -- the sort of arrogance one only finds on anonymous internet boards.
And given that it's been many months since the changes were announced, I think it's safe to say that any complainers remaining are not going to have their minds changed by anything Rich says.
No, it isn't. Nobody should say negative things in an unproductive manner in the thread designed for productive discussion with the developer.
Thats what I said. But I am all for criticism where its due as long as its constructive and polite
I never said the entire FR forum should be purged of negativity. Sheesh.
What I am saying is that you should be able to say negative things in the thread we are talking about
The only thing a customer is owed is the product for which they paid. Neither you, I nor any customer is owed an explanation for that product and it's the height of arrogance to think we are owed such a thing -- the sort of arrogance one only finds on anonymous internet boards.
Why is that arrogant? I have been a D&D player for 20 years. I think I deserve an explanation when major changes occur. If they don't want to be customer friendly, then good luck to them
And given that it's been many months since the changes were announced, I think it's safe to say that any complainers remaining are not going to have their minds changed by anything Rich says.
The problem is of course they have only given a brief outline as to what is changed, not the specifics. A few may in fact change their minds. Yes.
But what are you saying, even those its been a few months, now we should stop complaining?
What I am saying is that you should be able to say negative things in the thread we are talking about
Why that thread? You can be negative in every other thread in the forum. The only thing being negative to the developer will accomplish is shooting the forum in the metaphorical head.
Why is that arrogant?
As a customer, you speak with your wallet. You are not "owed" anything. Being owed something indicates you think you are entitled to more than what you paid for -- i.e., that you deserve something for nothing. That's the very height of arrogance.
I have been a D&D player for 20 years. I think I deserve an explanation when major changes occur.
I've been a D&D player for 28 years. I don't think we're owed a thing more than what we shell out the money for.
If they don't want to be customer friendly, then good luck to them
That's different. If they "want" to give you an explanation, that's their prerogative. They don't owe it to you. And of course, telling you what you want to hear and being customer-friendly are not necessarily the same thing.
(Deciding that catering to your desires is being "customer friendly" is also arrogant.)
The problem is of course they have only given a brief outline as to what is changed, not the specifics. A few may in fact change their minds. Yes.
Not a chance. If there is something they thought they could say to change someone's mind, they would have. The time for mind-changing is long past.
But what are you saying, even those its been a few months, now we should stop complaining?
In the thread designed for productive discussions with the developer? Absolutely. Yes.
In other threads? Whine and complain to your heart's content within the confine of the CoC.
"The purpose of this post is to spew hate/vent about dislike of the changes to the FR. It is not
- actually asking a question;
- likely to result in a reponse by Rich Baker due to the tone of the post.
The result of this post is to disrupt this thread and interrupt the lines of communication currently open between Rich Baker and fans of the 4E version of the FR."
Why that thread? You can be negative in every other thread in the forum. The only thing being negative to the developer will accomplish is shooting the forum in the metaphorical head.
Let me ask you this, would this be an inappriopriate question for Rich Baker:
"Rich, I think its a terrible idea to kill off nearly all of the dwarven gods. I liked the pantheon and the variety therein. Why do you feel it was necessary to cull the pantheon like that?"
I think thats a perfectly legimate question. It sure is negative, but appropriate.
I've been a D&D player for 28 years. I don't think we're owed a thing more than what we shell out the money for.
You may be right, but that would be bad business. It just makes sense to be customer friendly. Perhaps "owed" is the wrong word. But its far from arrogant
Let me ask you this, would this be an inappriopriate question for Rich Baker:
"Rich, I think its a terrible idea to kill off nearly all of the dwarven gods. I liked the pantheon and the variety therein. Why do you feel it was necessary to cull the pantheon like that?"
I think thats a perfectly legimate question. It sure is negative, but appropriate.
Depends. Do you want Rich Baker to answer honestly or are you really trying to get him to reconsider his decision?
It's a legitimate question, but an inappropriate tone.
"Rich, could you explain your reasoning for the death of many of the dwarven gods?"
Same question. Better tone.
So explain to me what the negativity achieves besides self-absorbed catharsis for the questioner and the possibility of killing further dialogue with the developer? Is politeness and respect so anathema?
But the biggest impact you as the consumer can have is to simply not buy the game if you disagree with a company's approach to business. They can't expect you to purchase their stuff just because they put it out there, but on the same token, you can't expect the businesses to stop trying to get your money with product. It's not a friendship. They don't owe you years of free updates and expansions and new content just because you bought the core product, and you don't owe them anything either.
You may be right, but that would be bad business.
Not necessarily. Responding to every complaint and demand for information can be bad for business too. Developer time is valuable and should not be wasted on trying to address negativity that is unlikely to be changed.
Perhaps "owed" is the wrong word. But its far from arrogant
If you think you're owed an answer from the developer, you are arrogant, no matter what word you use to describe your sense of entitlement.
Tim Buckley (sp??) wrote the below in response to complaints about micro-transactions, but the general feeling is exactly the same.
Of course, I feel many long time FR fans will probabl not buy the new setting. At least I know I won't
Depends. Do you want Rich Baker to answer honestly or are you really trying to get him to reconsider his decision?
It's a legitimate question, but an inappropriate tone.
"Rich, could you explain your reasoning for the death of many of the dwarven gods?"
Same question. Better tone.
So explain to me what the negativity achieves besides self-absorbed catharsis for the questioner and the possibility of killing further dialogue with the developer? Is politeness and respect so anathema?
Because you are giving a sense of how you feel in presenting the question to the person. I'm pretty sure Rich can answer that question honestly. I'm also fairly sure he won't get upset by it either. How is that question not polite? Are we supposed to veil our thinking when posing questions. That seems silly and in someways counter-productive. Why shouldn't he know the questioner is not happy about the decision. Perhaps it would change his answer. Perhaps he would spend more time/words on justifying the decision
I do not feel that any decisions will be changed by that thread. A lack of purchases may changed the decisions.
If you think you're owed an answer from the developer, you are arrogant, no matter what word you use to describe your sense of entitlement.
Well, then call me arrogant if you like. They have destroyed a setting I have spent tons of money on and feel that ys, I should get an explanation. Again, it would be bad business to not try and justify it to the longtime fans
Because you are giving a sense of how you feel in presenting the question to the person.
So what?
I'm pretty sure Rich can answer that question honestly. I'm also fairly sure he won't get upset by it either.
He's already expressed an aversion to the negativity, so I'm fairly sure you're certainty isn't based on anything beyond wishful thinking.
Are we supposed to veil our thinking when posing questions.
Yes. If your "thinking" is "I don't like what you did and I'm so self-absorbed I think my emotion on the subject is something you need to consider", you should rethink writing to him.
Perhaps it would change his answer. Perhaps he would spend more time/words on justifying the decision
Maybe you didn't see the actual statement from Rich Baker, but the only thing negativity will accomplish is that he spends no time on the answer because he'll stop frequenting the forum.
Really, that's what started the thread in the first place. Negativity is going to shut the thread down and yet you still insist that negativity will do something productive?!
I do not feel that any decisions will be changed by that thread. A lack of purchases may changed the decisions.
Then stop buying. But don't sabotage the thread, because then you're interfering in the enjoyment of people who are still thinking of making purchases and that's just spiteful.
You may be right, but that would be bad business. It just makes sense to be customer friendly. Perhaps "owed" is the wrong word. But its far from arrogant
No, it is arrogant, and that is half the problem in these boards.
Again, it would be bad business to not try and justify it to the longtime fans
You can write it a thousand times and it's no more true than the first time you wrote it. Longtime fans who need a justification are what's commonly called "lost business". Spending resources trying to regain lost business that -- based on the behavior of the past few months -- ain't coming back is what's commonly called "throwing good money after bad."
So what?
He's already expressed an aversion to the negativity, so I'm fairly sure you're certainty isn't based on anything beyond wishful thinking.
Yes. If your "thinking" is "I don't like what you did and I'm so self-absorbed I think my emotion on the subject is something you need to consider", you should rethink writing to him.
Maybe you didn't see the actual statement from Rich Baker, but the only thing negativity will accomplish is that he spends no time on the answer because he'll stop frequenting the forum.
Really, that's what started the thread in the first place. Negativity is going to shut the thread down and yet you still insist that negativity will do something productive?!
Then stop buying. But don't sabotage the thread, because then you're interfering in the enjoyment of people who are still thinking of making purchases and that's just spiteful.
A. I'm fairly self-absorbed but it has nothing to do with this. Its not "my emotion" on the subject but my point of view. I am gald to tell him my point of view and see no reason why that should stop.
B. Polite negativity can accomplish things and thats not the negativity that Rich was really talking about IMHO. Again, he can't handle constructive criticism or a statement that something is not liked, then he picked the wrong line of work. What I think he means is that he doesn't like the "4E Sucks and You all Suck" posts, which are fine but belong in another thread.
You can write it a thousand times and it's no more true than the first time you wrote it. Longtime fans who need a justification are what's commonly called "lost business". Spending resources trying to regain lost business that -- based on the behavior of the past few months -- ain't coming back is what's commonly called "throwing good money after bad."
Unfortnately, they spent resources trying to get rid of our business
Myself, I have switched over to FR's fandom with the Summer Flames events in Dragonlance (and note, it was sad but calm and quiet). Not really new anymore.
Could we have at least cool if respectfull tolerance? Please don't speak in our name for anything, and DO NOT question our.... 'credo'.
Adopt a zero-tolerance policy on Wizards-, change- and edition-bashing. Not negative responses, just bashing.
People should be allowed to express their opinion as long as it is within the Code of Conduct. Do we really want to advocate censorhsip here?
all the people saying "4e should fail", "I threw up in their mouth over 4e", "anyone involved is an idiot", "WotC people should be fired",
The only one of those that get a warning is the "idiot" one as it attacks people.
should get banned. No three strikes, no second chances. Just gone.
Why? I can't imagine anyone advocating no second chances, especially over soemthing that is not against the Code
Unfortnately, they spent resources trying to get rid of our business.
They are not there out to *get you out*. It's not personal in any way.
They have seen the problems that FR have, in and out of the setting. You may disagree with their ideas, it's ok, but I feel that they are interested in it's *survival*. To continue the line, the live...
Also... As a business, who count? a minority(?) of hardcore fans, or the whole picture, with many different and opposed groups?
Merrik, not every fans have the same ideas as you. I have seen old fans, ex-fans, new guys expressing interest in this new era. Majority or minority, we will see.
Please direct me to any post I have written where I say everyone should feel as I do about the new Realms. Yes, I think what I have seen so far is horrible, but if you are interested that go for it.
Could we have at least cool if respectfull tolerance? Please don't speak in our name for anything, and DO NOT question our.... 'credo'.
Have I ever? I respect your game, my friend. Always will.
Unless, of course, you play Eberron..........:P
Your answer there show us a part of the problem - you take it as if it was some personal strike. Otaku-like.
They are not there out to *get you out*. It's not personal in any way.
They have seen the problems that FR have, in and out of the setting. You may disagree with their ideas, it's ok, but I feel that they are interested in it's *survival*. To continue the line, the live...
Also... As a business, who count? a minority(?) of hardcore fans, or the whole picture, with many different and opposed groups?
I did not mean to imply that they personally want me out. I'm self-absorbed accoridng to wrecan, but not that bad.
What I mean is this: They spent resources (time, effort, etc) to get away from the old timers to go after the warcraft crowd. I believe they hope we will come along for the ride, but they don't particularly care
You've just stated you're probably not buying the books. Why should Rich spend any time answering your questions? You are a non-customer? Is there something he could say, besides KIDDING it's all as it was, that would change your mind? If not, then the Q&A thread isn't for you anymore, because you are no longer a customer of their product.
It may sounds rude, Maltrok have a point.
I did not mean to imply that they personally want me out. I'm self-absorbed accoridng to wrecan, but not that bad.
What I mean is this: They spent resources (time, effort, etc) to get away from the old timers to go after the warcraft crowd. I believe they hope we will come along for the ride, but they don't particularly care
I've said this before, D&D has always catered to the populist gamer: in '74 it was the wargamer, in '89 it was the hard-core role-player, in '00 it was the CRPG/CCG gamer, and now in '08 it's the MMO player. It is a game of it's times. If you've stopped progressing in your game playing, then you'll get left behind.
Which is fine, we've all stopped playing one version of a game or another because it doesn't fit our playstyle anymore. Move on. Just because the published FR isn't what you want to play it doesn't mean you can't continue playing your brand of FR, go for it. Nothing is stopping you but yourself.
Merrik, Merrik... would you please not use this tired old canard. The Warcraft Falacy.
i would if it was not true
I never called you self-absorbed. I only used the term in reference to a hypothetical line of thinking a naysayer might possess. You called yourself self-absorbed. Don't put that on me.
You said someone who thinks they deserve an explanation is self-absorbed. I say you could call me self-absorbed then. I just happen to agree with you:D
i would if it was not true
It *is not* true. Disproved many times. It's a weak cliché argument, using a stereotypal object of bad feelings.
You've just stated you're probably not buying the books.
I said I wouldn't buy that book. Unless of course something changes my mind. I have ordered the 4e core books as I like the ideas behind from what I understand. I may buy the FR Players Guide to see how the races and paragon paths are converted.
Its the time jump and what not with the Campaign book that I truly dislike
It *is not* true. Disproved many times. It's a weak cliché argument, using a stereotypal object of bad feelings.
How has it been "proven" wrong?
How has it been "proven" wrong?
15,000 times in the General board and around by many posters, like Vaalingrad.
Personally, I think some naysayers would be more than happy to drive Baker out of the FR forum, cause it to shut down all in the hopes of making the FR collapse so that, at least if they won't undo the 4E changes, they can at least minimize the number of publications made under 4E so it's easier to imagine it never occurred in the first place.
I think the fact that we're now discussing MerrickCale and not whether negativity should be expressed in the developers' thread illustrates exactly why, no matter how politely the naysayer tries to be, negtativity is going to derail the thread.
Hey, I didn't start that. We were having a nice debate, I thought.
Personally, I think some naysayers would be more than happy to drive Baker out of the FR forum, cause it to shut down all in the hopes of making the FR collapse so that, at least if they won't undo the 4E changes, they can at least minimize the number of publications made under 4E so it's easier to imagine it never occurred in the first place.
There might be some of those. True. But I am not one. The last thing I want to close down the threads. In fact, I started some threads to expand the FR boards. I think what many hope is that the 4e realms are a huge failure and they retcon.
15,000 times in the General board and around by many posters, like Vaalingrad.
PM me with the basics of that please so as not to hijack the thread
I think what many hope is that the 4e realms are a huge failure and they retcon.
Instead of being so negative (and frankly spitfull(?)), couldn't they be helpfull and work with the pro-ers in improving things, mellowing rough sides, fleshing out, etc... contribuating constructively and giving the thing a chance?
Many of those rehashed 'complaints' ended up in the megathread, and hopefully they kept the rebutals. In anyway, if you look at those fandom warring bits, there is clever and contructed rebutals of this farsical '4TH=WOW' argument.
Instead of being so negative (and frankly spitfull(?)), couldn't they be helpfull and work with the pro-ers in improving things, mellowing rough sides, fleshing out, etc... contribuating constructively and giving the thing a chance?
Sure, but many won't give it a more of a chance. They have made their decisions based upon the information released. Perhaps that is unfair, or perhaps they released enough info to make an informed decision.
Hey, I didn't start that. We were having a nice debate, I thought.
You did start it. As soon as you snarkily accused WotC of pursuing the WoW market, you derailed the discussion from whether negativity in the developers' thread is productive to "Is WotC pursuing the WoW market", a point you acknowledged by belatedly asking someone to move it to PM.
But that's exactly how it always works. The person with the dour attitude always throws in some snarky aside to illustrate his bitterness and that always draws someone in to try and correct it and suddenly the snarky aside has become the main point of the thread.
And it doesn't even matter if the snarky aside has a basis in fact or not. Let's assume WotC is pursuing the WoW market. What does it have to do with the topic at hand? Nothing.
People who are being productive, who are not being passive aggressive and who are not trying to vent emotion rarely engage in that sort of behavior and their threads generally stay on target.
Negativity is a discussion killer. The naysayer often doesn't even realize the damage he is doing until it's done. That's why asking people to behave themselves is often unproductive. You probably didn't even thinking you were going to derail the thread until you saw it was already derailed.
Thats' why the thread needs a VCL to keep it negativity-free. It will keep the developer present. It will keep the derailments to a minimum.
There might be some of those. True. But I am not one.
I didn't say you were.
You did start it. As soon as you snarkily accused WotC of pursuing the WoW market, you derailed the discussion from whether negativity in the developers' thread is productive to "Is WotC pursuing the WoW market", a point you acknowledged by belatedly asking someone to move it to PM.
I was answering a specific question related to this. That is, I feel that Wizards has deliberately geared themselves to that crowd. It was snarky at all. It was a legimate point in the discussion. A discussion on why that is or is not true should be moved elsewhere. But I stand by my post and am not acknowledging anything.
Somebody stated that WoTC has not purposefully tried to get of the old timers. Thats how that came up in a legimate manner
Negativity is a discussion killer. The naysayer often doesn't even realize the damage he is doing until it's done. That's why asking people to behave themselves is often unproductive. You probably didn't even thinking you were going to derail the thread until you saw it was already derailed.
Thats' why the thread needs a VCL to keep it negativity-free. It will keep the developer present. It will keep the derailments to a minimum.
Well, the problem is that we are in the early stages of a new game. There is going to be a lot of distaste as well as exceitement. Threads are going to go off target more than usual.
But again, I wouldn't remove all negativity
Well, the problem is that we are in the early stages of a new game. There is going to be a lot of distaste as well as exceitement. Threads are going to go off target more than usual.
But again, I wouldn't remove all negativity
And that's fine for most threads in the FR board, but for the developers' thread, it's counterproductive and should be stopped. Really, I don't know why it's so important that you be able to be snarky, negative and bitter in that thread.
Many people, I like to think I am one of them, complain because they hope that their complaints will be heard and that change might result. Perhaps I am entirely wrong in this assumption and should just quietly leave.
I don't think I'm one of the people tossing negativity around but I'm sure some of my posts when I get frustrated get probably seem that way. Also, I try and post on-topic and don't pollute threads.
A few reasons why negativity might be spreading (I'm not trying to not justify it just commenting on why I think it's an issue).
1) The board reorganization has removed many forums or turned them from 3.5 forums into 4e forums. Many of the people who might have been content staying in 3.5 land have been forcibly evicted and are wandering the boards looking for a place to vent about it.
2) Mods have a habit of taking threads that are complaints or criticisms and dumping them into one thread saying "this is the thread where we are discussing this". Perhaps a WizO replies there a few times but typically those threads are ignored so people who have legitimate concerns feel they are ignored. I call these ghetto threads.
3) In general concerns and criticisms seem to be ignored until they come to a head. Rather than answer questions in a straight forward fashion I often see issues get set aside for days or sometimes weeks before they are answered. Sometimes these issues are never addressed and the comments are just shunted into the previously mentioned ghetto threads.
Again, I am totally against spoiling threads and trying to bust into a conversation just because you happen to know a developer listens there. I do feel that if Wizards did a little better job of getting straight forward answers that people would be so inclined to lash out in random venues.
And again, it's not the truth and rather snarky.
I did not say it in a snarky manner at all. Nor has it been proven. At least as far I can tell. But I was making a point that was specific to this thread. I did not and do not want this develope off the topic. But there is a group of "old timers" within the FR community who feel they have been set aside for the new group of gamers. Call it warcraft or not. Whether its true or not, its an effect on the negativity on those Boards
I was answering a specific question related to this.
A question that was generated by your statement in post 51 that "Unfortnately, they spent resources trying to get rid of our business"
That statement was utterly off-topic for this thread. It was not even particularly responsive to my quote that you cited before making the statement. It was just an expression of bitterness and anger.
So yes, you started it. You started it in post 51 and it's classic of how bitterness and snark will derail threads.
Which is fine for the rest of the FR board, but not fine for the one thread in which the developers agree to come and meet the fanbase. It's time for you to decide if you really care about the FR forum continuing or if you're content to be the mechanism of its ultimate demise.
And that's fine for most threads in the FR board, but for the developers' thread, it's counterproductive and should be stopped. Really, I don't know why it's so important that you be able to be snarky, negative and bitter in that thread.
Its not important at all. In fact, I think we generally agree on most of this. I think constructive critcisms should be allowed there. Thats all. And by the way, maybe most people are bitter
A question that was generated by your statement in post 51 that "Unfortnately, they spent resources trying to get rid of our business"
That statement was utterly off-topic for this thread. It was not even particularly responsive to my quote that you cited before making the statement. It was just an expression of bitterness and anger.
So yes, you started it. You started it in post 51 and it's classic of how bitterness and snark will derail threads.
Which is fine for the rest of the FR board, but not fine for the one thread in which the developers agree to come and meet the fanbase. It's time for you to decide if you really care about the FR forum continuing or if you're content to be the mechanism of its ultimate demise.
No it was in direct response to you saying "Spending resources trying to regain lost business that -- based on the behavior of the past few months -- ain't coming back is what's commonly called "throwing good money after bad."
You are saying they won't spend money trying to get fans they have lost. I was making the point that you could argue they spent money to gt rid of me, i.e., to go after the younger audience perhaps at the expense of the old
Wow. I'm the mechanism of the demise of the whole Board now. I am more powerful then I thought.
I highly doubt that the current bitterness going on there will be the downfall of the Board especially since it is one of the busiest there is.
Now, if people abandon the boards then they will go bye bye. I think that will be more of a function of how well the 4E Realms sells really
After the release open a new thread for questions not answered and call it even. The days when the nay sayers had a chance to affect the new realms is done.
I for one will miss the thread and would like to thank Rich Baker for taking his time to share with us. I would also like to say sorry for the way some have posted, I hope he takes it all with a grain of salt and keeps creating.
No it was in direct response to you saying "Spending resources trying to regain lost business that -- based on the behavior of the past few months -- ain't coming back is what's commonly called "throwing good money after bad."
It was responsive in that you were responding to my words, but it was off-topic in the sense that it didn't respon in the context of how that related to the topic of the thread (whether to be negative to the developer).
You are saying they won't spend money trying to get fans they have lost. I was making the point that you could argue they spent money to gt rid of me, i.e., to go after the younger audience perhaps at the expense of the old
Which is not on-topic. It's like a thread in which we are discussing the rules of poker and I say "Four Queens beat Four jacks" and you say "Hey, in Bridge, four queens isn't nearly as helpful." Were you responding to my reference to having four queens? Yes. Were you doing so in a way that derailed the topic? Also, yes.
I highly doubt that the current bitterness going on there will be the downfall of the Board especially since it is one of the busiest there is.
Busy and successful are different. The Concerns and Criticisms Board was the most successful board on the forums when it was open. It got closed because of bitterness and snarkiness. Is that what you hope happens to the FR board?
Now, if people abandon the boards then they will go bye bye. I think that will be more of a function of how well the 4E Realms sells really
I'm not talking about forumites abandoning the boards. I'm talking about Wizards abandoning the forums.
Gentlemen,
Your discussion has turned into a side discussion, which itself is now degenerating into a ******* contest.
Both of you are to blame.
Please take it to PMs.
Now then, if you're feeling kind, you could probably edit several of your posts down to almost nothing and do a great good by leaving the thread with content germane to what is its actual, original subject.
Ironically, your side debate and its rapid growth is a perfect example of the kind of thread pollution infecting the Ask the Designers thread....just substitute any one of a number of FR subjects put to Rich, that any two people could be on either side of in agreement or disagreement, and there you go.
It was responsive in that you were responding to my words, but it was off-topic in the sense that it didn't respon in the context of how that related to the topic of the thread (whether to be negative to the developer).
Which is not on-topic. It's like a thread in which we are discussing the rules of poker and I say "Four Queens beat Four jacks" and you say "Hey, in Bridge, four queens isn't nearly as helpful." Were you responding to my reference to having four queens? Yes. Were you doing so in a way that derailed the topic? Also, yes.
I was directly responding to a comment you made and thus, on the topic you created. I think its directly related. You said they won't spend the effort to get me back. Despite the fact they haven't lost me, I was making the point they spent the effort to lose me why not spend the effort to get me back.
The point is this: They obviously made the decision at least at it regards the Realms, that they were going to risk losing the old timers in an attempt to get new gamers. I think they have all but admitted that. Is it a bad idea to try to "woo" those old timers back somehow by at least trying to explain the decisions taht were made and why they feel they were agood idea. I don't think thats a wasted effort and certainly "on topic"
The warcraft statement is a metaphor as Warcraft itself represents the new type of gamer. Whether or not, the metaphor is correct is another debate to be had elsewhere. Its a far far cry from derailing the thread.
Everything I said was basically or at least loosely on topic which IMHO is appropriate. It was part of the debate being had.
Wizards may abandon the Boards. If the overwhelming majority dislike the new Realms they may get tired of being criticized. There is little anyone can really do about that. Why they ever opened up a Board for Concerns only seems a rather dumb idea if they were going to stress out over snarkiness. That Board, which I never read to be honest, screams for people to ***** and moan.
People have a right to say what they have to say and express their views, yet they must also pay attention to the consequences. Take a page off of Crowley, FR will only be brought down if it is thy will.
The ones that bug me are worded more like, "What band of lobotomized monkeys decided to kill off all the dwarven gods?" or "Clearly, you fail to understand how important the dwarven gods were; any lobotomized monkey should have been able to grasp that."
I don't mind hard questions and expressions of dissatisfaction (hopefully in support of a question, because that's the point of the thread) -- within reason. I don't want a Potemkin-village thread; it doesn't have to be all positive. I just want to cut down on the posts that aren't adding anything to the "silent majority"' keeping an eye on the thread.
Let me ask you this, would this be an inappriopriate question for Rich Baker:
"Rich, I think its a terrible idea to kill off nearly all of the dwarven gods. I liked the pantheon and the variety therein. Why do you feel it was necessary to cull the pantheon like that?"
I think thats a perfectly legimate question. It sure is negative, but appropriate.
A not unreasonable question, in my opinion. It's strongly worded, but it's not insulting and it's fair game.
The ones that bug me are worded more like, "What band of lobotomized monkeys decided to kill off all the dwarven gods?" or "Clearly, you fail to understand how important the dwarven gods were; any lobotomized monkey should have been able to grasp that."
I don't mind hard questions and expressions of dissatisfaction (hopefully in support of a question, because that's the point of the thread) -- within reason. I don't want a Potemkin-village thread; it doesn't have to be all positive. I just want to cut down on the posts that aren't adding anything to the "silent majority"' keeping an eye on the thread.
Fair enough. I would never agree that personal attacks or insults such as that should be tolerated. I do think that particular thread has gotten a little carried away with non-responsive answers and "snarkiness" and I think your abovementioned post there has at least temporarily chnaged things a bit. We shall see. I hope it stays that way. I would for one would like to keep that thread going.
And by the way, I really didn't care so much about the loss of the dwarven gods. I'm much more upset about the Time Jump
I think the time jump was needed to have the Realms in a 'normal' state, so to speak. Starting off right after the Spellplague, while cool for a change of pace, wouldn't be the best place to toss everyone who wanted to play in FR. The turmoil and chaos of the plague sweeping through the land isn't an ideal way to start a game for noobs or people that want something more traditional.
well, I disagree, but maybe this should be discussed elsewhere
Just to start with a clean slate.
Bel
Well I for one would like that particular thread closed and a new one opened for the arrival of the new FRCS.
Just to start with a clean slate.
Bel
I think starting a new one when they release the new Realms is a smart idea, but I wouldn't close this one until then