If we are not allowed to mention any activities on these forums which are illegal in the real world and by extension the US of A then shall we stop talking about how our characters are good at killing things? Killing is not always Legal. Some of the posters here are not over the age of 21 shall we vet their Posts for references to their character's exploits in taverns? Are we allowed to discuss Evil characters we have played or NPC's we have run as DM's since the very nature of Evil characters is to do lots of Not nice things which would most likely be covered under illegal activities.
I understand that WotC does not want to be seen as endorseing these activities but when staff is editing posts of members and leaving the reason as "Illegal Activities" it is a bit stigmatizing. I mean what the heck does that MEAN. And if we are not allowed to talk about things that happen in the context of a game or talk about Hypothetical situations that MAY appear in the context of the game then what are these forums FOR?
Color me a bit confused and more than a bit upset.
Whats next? When I discuss a plotline that includes a band of roving freedom fighters who strike against the corrupt crown will that post be removed because WOtC is afraid it might sound like it is endorsing terrorism?
Is that what we are reduced to here?
Can i please get a bit of clarification?
Just a guess, though.
it starts with R and rhymes with ape.
He did not describe it I should clarify. He just said so a character could **** some one kill their husband ripp their intestines out...etc etc...not really inflamatory language if you ask me.
This is a free forum to talk about D&D and Wizards does have the legal and moral right to ask you to behave in a fashion they find acceptable. They may want you to not talk about drug use, or ****, or baby eating but that doesn’t mean you can do it… err… correction, Role Play that you do it. They are just asking that you don’t bring it up in forums where they are the ones being judged by your comments/actions.
This falls under the first constitutional case brought up in this country where it was decided that you have the right to be free as long as the exercising of your freedom doesn’t impose upon another person’s freedom.
So enjoy your right to play whatever you want, enjoy your right to talk about it on your own forums, and enjoy your rights to be annoyed when someone else doesn’t want you talk about it in their forum.
Yes but then to edit a post by another person and leave "Illegal Activities" as the reason. It makes it sound like the Poster ACTUALLY did something illegal which is tantamount to Slander.
No... you are wrong. It is called moderating and giving the reason for a change.
Yes but then to edit a post by another person and leave "Illegal Activities" as the reason. It makes it sound like the Poster ACTUALLY did something illegal which is tantamount to Slander.
No, it doesn't sound that way at all.
Yes but then to edit a post by another person and leave "Illegal Activities" as the reason. It makes it sound like the Poster ACTUALLY did something illegal which is tantamount to Slander.
First off, to quote J. Jonah Jameson: "Slander is spoken, in print it's Libel."
Secondly, try contacting the WizO's directly as they are the only ones who can give a concrete explanation of why a thread was locked.
Thirdly, while the poster in question may or may not have committed an actual illegal act, it can be argued that they were glorifying an illegal act. Something which is an explicit violation of the Code of Conduct:
Do not promote, plan, glorify or engage in any illegal activity or otherwise make available content that would encourage or provide instructions for a criminal offense. These topics include crimes relating to drugs, drug paraphernalia, ****, solicitation of a minor, computer hacking, and copyright violation.
That's only a possibility, you'd have to ask someone in authority to be sure.
Remember, D&D is for ages 12 & up. As such, these boards are supposed to be family friendly and some topics just aren't kosher.
Yes but then to edit a post by another person and leave "Illegal Activities" as the reason. It makes it sound like the Poster ACTUALLY did something illegal which is tantamount to Slander.
Libel. And no, not really.
No... you are wrong. It is called moderating and giving the reason for a change.
No reason for change would have been "Inappropriate comments" or "COC Violation".
Stating that the REASON for changing something was "Illegal Activities" implies that the posted said or performed and illegal activity.
That was patently untrue. Thus it can be interpreted as the Staffer accusing the poster of Illegal Activities.
All i am saying is I want to know which real world illegal activities we CAN discuss here and which we cannot. I would like an official ruling please.
Perhaps the moderator should change his reason to "Inappropriate Content" then.
I agree that that should happen at the VERY least.
I would like an official ruling please.
Then contact Customer Service using the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page.
That's the only real way to get an Official Response.
No reason for change would have been "Inappropriate comments" or "COC Violation".
Stating that the REASON for changing something was "Illegal Activities" implies that the posted said or performed and illegal activity.
That was patently untrue. Thus it can be interpreted as the Staffer accusing the poster of Illegal Activities.
All i am saying is I want to know which real world illegal activities we CAN discuss here and which we cannot. I would like an official ruling please.
I think you can use your common sense to determine what is appropriate and what isn't. In a game where combat and death are core game elements, discussing it in the context of the game is par for the course. Discussing other illegal activity which has no context in the game is probably not acceptable. It is not that difficult to decipher.
But I know what you mean. It’s not a state law or a federal law that was broken… it was a law of the land. (As the nerdy phrase goes.) So the words they used can summon images far more dramatic then they mean. Still that person knew better… they were trying to push buttons and it worked. So just think of it as a Win/Win.
Yes but then to edit a post by another person and leave "Illegal Activities" as the reason. It makes it sound like the Poster ACTUALLY did something illegal which is tantamount to Slander.
Your posting here is not a right, it is a privilege. IF you are going to make legal threats, you might be forced to follow through on those threats. That said, your friend broke the COC clearly by promoting illegal activities, so the response and moderation was correct.
I would advise you to lose the chip on your shoulder before YOU are shown the door for obvious CoC violations as well. What you can and cannot post is clearly listed. Your friend posted something about **** , which is explicitly disallowed in the COC.
But I know what you mean. It’s not a state law or a federal law that was broken… it was a law of the land. (As the nerdy phrase goes.) So the words they used can summon images far more dramatic then they mean. Still that person knew better… they were trying to push buttons and it worked. So just think of it as a Win/Win.
–adjective
1. forbidden by law or statute.
2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass.
If it violated the forum's terms of conduct, it could easily be said to be "illegal". I don't know what happened exactly, but from your paraphrase it sounds like the post might have been a bit graphic.
This falls under the first constitutional case brought up in this country where it was decided that you have the right to be free as long as the exercising of your freedom doesn’t impose upon another person’s freedom.
No it doesn't. These are private forums owned by a private company. There isn't a Constitutional issue to begin with.
No it doesn't. These are private forums owned by a private company. There isn't a Constitutional issue to begin with.
This.
I just want to see if WotC is CONSISTENT with the way the COC is enforced.
Cheers!
In the name of fairness and balance I am still waiting for all uses of the term offending term that was edited out of the post in the other thread to be removed from this thread as well. I think it popped up a few times in just about as gratuitous a context.
I just want to see if WotC is CONSISTENT with the way the COC is enforced.
Cheers!
It's at the very least neutral in that big Antis VS Pros mess. Or strangely leniant toward the abuses.
Ever think it may have been a consensual mating?
D&D 5th edition featuring My Little Pony... I forsee it!
I just want to see if WotC is CONSISTENT with the way the COC is enforced.
The final paragraph of the CoC is reasonably important.
This explanation of disciplinary procedure is meant to be a guideline for members to understand what their status may be with regard to the process. It is only a guideline and Wizards of the Coast may deviate from this procedure at any time in any manner it deems appropriate without notice. A specific chat, forum, list or online game situation may require other measures to ensure the family orientation of the Site.
You may find what the poster talked about as harmless. It's not your call, however.
So this is the dumb reason half-orcs were removed form the game?
WOW. That was impressive. I had not even made that logical leap yet. Nicely done sir. I tip my hat to You.
It also leads one to wonder what other things might be affected in the game worlds. Will there be wizards have to have permission to copy scroll from guilds now or else be thwarted by Mystical rights management Spells?
Cheers!
WOW. That was impressive. I had not even made that logical leap yet. Nicely done sir. I tip my hat to You.
It also leads one to wonder what other things might be affected in the game worlds. Will there be wizards have to have permission to copy scroll from guilds now or else be thwarted by Mystical rights management Spells?
Cheers!
Well there is killing in the game, and the half-orc was most often representing as coming to being by one specific fuedal or medieval method.
Marketed for 12 & UP makes you think the reason for half-orcs existing might not be "appropriate subject matter", but does make you wonder, how killing is ok, especially when humans are listed as something you can fight and kill in the mosnter manual.....
Still doesn't explain gnomes being left out of the first PHB, but could explain the reason behind half-orcs being left out...
Well there is killing in the game, and the half-orc was most often representing as coming to being by one specific fuedal or medieval method.
Marketed for 12 & UP makes you think the reason for half-orcs existing might not be "appropriate subject matter", but does make you wonder, how killing is ok, especially when humans are listed as something you can fight and kill in the mosnter manual.....
Still doesn't explain gnomes being left out of the first PHB, but could explain the reason behind half-orcs being left out...
Killing simply means sending a creature to it's death. **** means violating another person in such a way as to profoundly distort the very foundation of human existence. It inflicts permanent mental trauma, etc. In other words death is much easier to deal with then ****, furthermore killing can be justified, **** cannot be.
End.
Besides, killing somethign in DND could very well mean sending it to an eternity of both physical AND mental torment and trauma. If the creature is suficently evil/worships a suficently evil deity/has pacts with signifigantly evil outsiders killing it may well send it to a fate much worse than living with the memory of ****. **** might be the worst thing in OUR world, but were talking about a fantasy world. If you cant think of anything worse, your mind isnt nearly sadistic enough.....
Anyways, wizards boards, wizards rules, wizards judgment. I think most people here agree on that. I also think that most people here agree that more specific reasons being given for editing will lead to less confusion. It can only be benificial for posters to have a clearer understanding of what will be punished. It makes it easier to avoid crossing that line if you dont have to guess at where it is being drawn.
You can come up with a justification for anything if you try hard enough. It comes down to most every creatures innate desire to think somewhat well of themselves, regardless of anything they might do.
Besides, killing somethign in DND could very well mean sending it to an eternity of both physical AND mental torment and trauma. If the creature is suficently evil/worships a suficently evil deity/has pacts with signifigantly evil outsiders killing it may well send it to a fate much worse than living with the memory of ****. **** might be the worst thing in OUR world, but were talking about a fantasy world. If you cant think of anything worse, your mind isnt nearly sadistic enough.....
Anyways, wizards boards, wizards rules, wizards judgment. I think most people here agree on that. I also think that most people here agree that more specific reasons being given for editing will lead to less confusion. It can only be benificial for posters to have a clearer understanding of what will be punished. It makes it easier to avoid crossing that line if you dont have to guess at where it is being drawn.
Correct, but the creature getting sent to the Nine Hells is getting sent there do to their own corruption. Not due to the players, and also, you're right, you can think of far worse things, but they're not included in the game either.
Person A holds Person B at knife point and says they're going to kill them because they are(black, white, hispanic, gay, straight, female, male, transgender etc) Person C sees the scene, takes out a gun they carry for self-defense purposes and immediately fire off a round into Person A's exposed body. Person A dies, Person C is a hero.
End.
Black Man A enters an elevator contaning White Woman A. White Woman A shoots Black Man A because she felt threatened. Black Man A dies, White Woman A is aquitted of any wrong doing.
This has no bearing on the subject at hand. Nor do your opinions on **** or hellmutes opinion on murder. Im sorry but this thread is getting very off topic. (Unless, of course, you two are just trying to see where that editing line is drawn by making an example, in that case, my bad :} )
And, id have to disagree. Person C is not a hero. They are probably giong to jail for excessive force. If they where in law enforcment, they would almost certaintly be faceing a lawsuit/going to jail. Unless person A was a member of a minority.... but now we are giong even more off topic, and its all my fault.
Shame on me.
Correct, but the creature getting sent to the Nine Hells is getting sent there do to their own corruption. Not due to the players, and also, you're right, you can think of far worse things, but they're not included in the game either.
oh? Curses, eternal damnation, energy drain, transformation into a craven undead creater and compelled brutally slaugther everyone and every thing that you held dear in life, trapped in the body of an undead abomination that is slowly draining away the essence of yoru soul to power its evil magics so it can kill your close companions......
Many wonderful, compelling fates await would-be-heros who step foot into the world of DnD...
As my Sig says I am big on civility. I am also a person who gets very passionate about certain things and unfortunately the way that the edit on the post in question pushed my buttons.
For anyone I upset with this thread I am sorry. I still think the op could have chosen better words for his reason for editing but then I could have been a bit more mature with this thread as well.
I realize that this is supposed to be a family friendly game even though it hurts my head to think about the logical inconsistencies of that. WotC runs the boards and they want their boards to be family friendly. Fine. No problem. I would like to suggest that they think about the inherent contradiction in some of the themes discusses regularly on the boards and that policy and also encourage them to have some consistent policy for policing threads that foloows the CoC and maintains the dignity of the Members of the forum where possible.
Again sorry if I flew off the handle a bit. Some times I can go a bit overboard and I do try to maintain as civil and evenhanded approach as possible especially on forums as it is far to easy to let things get out of hand when one is just looking at text which may in fact be what I did to myself.
so Mea culpa, mea culpa, Mea maxima Culpa....now I can get back to nice argruments about roleplaying...thanks folks!
Cheers!
Black Man A enters an elevator contaning White Woman A. White Woman A shoots Black Man A because she felt threatened. Black Man A dies, White Woman A is aquitted of any wrong doing.
This has no bearing on the subject at hand. Nor do your opinions on **** or hellmutes opinion on murder. Im sorry but this thread is getting very off topic. (Unless, of course, you two are just trying to see where that editing line is drawn by making an example, in that case, my bad :} )
And, id have to disagree. Person C is not a hero. They are probably giong to jail for excessive force. If they where in law enforcment, they would almost certaintly be faceing a lawsuit/going to jail. Unless person A was a member of a minority.... but now we are giong even more off topic, and its all my fault.
Shame on me.
The legal process has no bearing on what's right or wrong. ;)
But if you want to take that viewpoint feel free to vote conservative and exploit the lower class. ^-^ Those things, while legal, are also immoral. So again, legality has no effect on what's right or wrong, person C is a hero, white woman A is a racist who desires to be hung by the neck till dead, and this thread doesn't have a real topic other than the OP *****ing and moaning, so we can't really be off topic now can we?
this thread doesn't have a real topic other than the OP *****ing and moaning, so we can't really be off topic now can we?
Hey come on now I apologized for that a few posts up....:D
Cheers!
Just an update and a mea culpa.
Massive respect from me.
Hey come on now I apologized for that a few posts up....:D
Cheers!
Re: So WHAT can I post about?
We're just trying to help on the topic.
Keep whining that is something you can post. ;)
So this is the dumb reason half-orcs were removed form the game?
Ever think it may have been a consensual mating?
D&D 5th edition featuring My Little Pony... I forsee it!
Yes, this is the reason they decided to not include them. I agree with it, and hope to see them come back with better fluff reasons.
See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/20071218a
Yes, this is the reason they decided to not include them. I agree with it, and hope to see them come back with better fluff reasons.
See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/20071218a
Then maybe the designers need to stop thining that way and just accept all half-breeds.
What are they going to say mixed raced players aren't allowed to play D&D either?
All they need to do is create a book of dominant traits for each race/gender and list them so that people can make half-anything and half-anythingelse.
Half-elf could have been bought about the same fashion they imagine half-orcs being so....
Half-elf could have been bought about the same fashion they imagine half-orcs being so....
Yes, and all other races aswell. The fact that orcs are most times represented as evil ugly green skinned brutes is however very different from the other PHB races(i.e. I think it's easier imagine consentual mating between an elf and a human than an orc and a human).
By modern standards, pretty much everything your D&D characters do would be illegal.
But it's not illegal, because it's just a game.
As far as the **** thing, that just seems indicative of the silliness of American culture, and it's absolute phobia of anything sex related. You can have a video game like the Grand Theft Auto series, which is about playing a criminal and running around shooting cops, but America gets most upset about a sex scene mod in the game.
But seriously, sex has been a part of D&D since it started. Half-orcs were pretty much accepted to be the product of ****, Tanis, a half-elven hero from dragonlance, also a product of ****. The succubus and the nymph are monsters in the monster manual. And this isn't the book of vile darkness, or any mature intended product. These are core products.
Fantasy worlds are pretty dark, and they contain a lot of villains. Villains do evil things that include slavery, mutilation, mass murder, genocide and torture. Is **** really worse than all those? I certainly don't think so.
It's just stupid censorship.
Lets not talk about evil or anything, because you know, chaotic evil characters don't really do anything really evil. They just lie on their taxes and cheat at cards.
But seriously, sex has been a part of D&D since it started. Half-orcs were pretty much accepted to be the product of ****, Tanis, a half-elven hero from dragonlance, also a product of ****. The succubus and the nymph are monsters in the monster manual. And this isn't the book of vile darkness, or any mature intended product. These are core products.
You know I had completely forgotten about Tanis. Its been a while since I read Dragonlance. So yeah, good point, Are we allowed to talk about the way Tanis was ... um Conceived?
The Succubus/Incubus is another good example of this.
Now I realize there are some completely inappropriate ways to talk about all these things (which I think we are steering clear of) but Archtyrant Terevoth didn't say anything in his post that got edited (yes he is the one who got edited) than me saying:
So Tanis's mom got Raped and there is alot of violence in Dragonlance like people chopping off heads and burning houses and spilling entrails.
That is about the level of what was originally written that was labled "Illegal Activities".
Now I am WAYYY past my ranting foaming at the mouth stage...again sorry bout that....but I do think there needs to be a happy medium here and i certainly think the staffer could have handled it with a bit more diplomacy...I mean everyone hase ranks in Diplomacy in 4E now dude so you can't claim you didn't put points in it! :D
Cheers!
Not being able to talk about illegal activities that take place in a game is very stupid. Given that we're playing a game where the primary emphasis is on kicking down doors, killing monsters and taking their loot. At best, it's vigilantism manslaughter, at worst, it's just outright felony murder and an armed robbery charge.
By modern standards, pretty much everything your D&D characters do would be illegal.
But it's not illegal, because it's just a game.
As far as the **** thing, that just seems indicative of the silliness of American culture, and it's absolute phobia of anything sex related. You can have a video game like the Grand Theft Auto series, which is about playing a criminal and running around shooting cops, but America gets most upset about a sex scene mod in the game.
But seriously, sex has been a part of D&D since it started. Half-orcs were pretty much accepted to be the product of ****, Tanis, a half-elven hero from dragonlance, also a product of ****. The succubus and the nymph are monsters in the monster manual. And this isn't the book of vile darkness, or any mature intended product. These are core products.
Fantasy worlds are pretty dark, and they contain a lot of villains. Villains do evil things that include slavery, mutilation, mass murder, genocide and torture. Is **** really worse than all those? I certainly don't think so.
It's just stupid censorship.
Lets not talk about evil or anything, because you know, chaotic evil characters don't really do anything really evil. They just lie on their taxes and cheat at cards.
Wow. If needing to be able to talk about raping characters is what being non-American is about, then count me glad to be an American.
What value does talking about raping people add to the discussion at all?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are male. Your insensitivity the severity of **** is beyond amazing. I can't believe you are seriously defending the right to describe fantasy **** scenes.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
I can't believe you are seriously defending the right to describe fantasy **** scenes.
Read again. He's not.
---
Can inappropriate topics be discussed in and around D&D?
The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Practice tact and be aware of context and you should be fine.
Wow. If needing to be able to talk about raping characters is what being non-American is about, then count me glad to be an American.
What value does talking about raping people add to the discussion at all?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are male. Your insensitivity the severity of **** is beyond amazing. I can't believe you are seriously defending the right to describe fantasy **** scenes.
And im going to go out on a limb here and say your a sexist ....
Men do not have a monopoly on violence, insensitivty, or advocating imaginary **** ect..
Here are a few qoutes from "1001 Reasons Girls Like DnD" (Astrid's Parlor) all from the first page, and none of them waranted "Editing" or warnings from CM, to the best of my knowledge.
8. You get to castrate a sailor on your first time (a female player once told me the main reason she came back for more was because of this).
35: Getting to make a dirty hairy smelly dwarf that can rip a man limb from limb. And then make the DM squirm when said dwarf pushes a frat-boy into a closet and 'has her way with him'.
In response to above:
DMs squirm when this happens? I have no objections to girls doing this.
70. Playing a drow priestess of Lloth with a harem of hunky drow males at your beck and call, or else...
Does noone look at that forum, or does it just have some kind of CoC exception? It has so many instances of sexist comments and "other" things that seem to be atleast as bad as the instance the OP mentioned, and yet i never see the kind of backlash there as what people get in any of the other forums (Including this one) for even mentioning such topics, much less advocating them as major draws of the game.