Something Needs To Be Done About D&D General Discussion - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Something Needs To Be Done About D&D General Discussion

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
thecasualoblivion
Jun 10, 2008 16:56:03 That place is a mess right now. I was a regular on the 4E Concerns and Criticisms board for months and I don't remember that place ever being this bad. There are a number of problems there:

1. Traffic--That place is really busy, and getting more traffic than it should. A topic with its last post 1hr previous is already on page two. Is there any way we could split this forum?

2. Edition Wars--Almost every thread there is an edition war between 3E and 4E(and occasionally AD&D 1E/2E). Threads that aren't edition wars tend to become edition wars before page two. Its a bit out of control.

3. Camps--There are two main camps of people, with positive and negative opinions on 4E arguing with each other. There are also a number of people who are upset about everybody arguing with each other. There are too many people arguing right now to count, too many to place on ignore, and it seems like new people come to that forum every day and join the arguments out of nowhere. These camps have shown absolutely no ability to get along, and this doesn't seem likely to change, especially with all the new people who seem to join the fracas every day.

4 On Topic--There really isn't any solid information on what is supposed to be there. You have people who come to the board who want to talk about the game, people who come to complain about the game and say that the previous version is better, and people who are only there for the drama. Civil discussion doesn't really seem to be possible between some of these groups. Defining On-Topic and a definition where there can be civil discussion, and maybe different forums where different opinions can discuss their opinions in peace without edition wars.
#2
kimli
Jun 10, 2008 17:05:58 I agree, and think they should re-tool these forums. I have yet to be able to find things that I have been in, and it takes forever for stuff to load. I'm about to call it quits for a while, until they get it right.
#3
thecasualoblivion
Jun 10, 2008 17:22:33 Something to add to the original post. Reading the General Discussion forum over the past week, what is going on there isn't trolling, baiting, or anything that really violates the CoC. Its just two groups of people who can't seem to get along and can't participate in a civil discussion.
#4
Artifact
Jun 10, 2008 17:59:01 It's not pretty but people are passionate about this game, they need to get things out of their system. Since the CoC isn't really being violated in most cases (as you mention), the posters should be left to their own devices, for better or worse.

I think trying to "bottle" all this up would do more harm than good. I'm really anxious to talk about the new game, but for now, I'm just lurking, letting the chaos play out as it must. Within a few months (at most), I expect things will be back normal (or at least what passes for it around here :P).
#5
oldgamer75
Jun 10, 2008 18:01:13
Something to add to the original post. Reading the General Discussion forum over the past week, what is going on there isn't trolling, baiting, or anything that really violates the CoC. Its just two groups of people who can't seem to get along and can't participate in a civil discussion.

I haven't even been around a year yet, but I would like to 'second' this person's concerns.

It's bad enough that I find myself reluctant to visit that forum anymore.

The arguments have grown intense enough to bring out the worst in everyone. And no one seems able to back down.
#6
the_ubbergeek
Jun 10, 2008 18:36:17 Thirded. It's tedious...

And a somewhat similar atmosphere is running cooly in the FR place; there is the pros and antis too. Just wait when the new setting book(s) will be out...
#7
apollyonschosen
Jun 10, 2008 18:36:28 It will blow over. Please ignore the forums for awhile, and work on the DDI app that isnt ready yet. And shipping the rest of the books so people who have ordered them can recieve them, screw all that other stuff.
Geez it's not like you can't subscribe to a topic. We don't need admins to hold our hands. People are voicing their opinions about the new edition. People are pretty passionate about the subject and may need a place to vent/offer feed back. Aren't there plenty of forums to move to if you find the GD too busy or chaotic? Let's move beyond the kindergarten stage of tattling and let people speak their minds.
#8
thecasualoblivion
Jun 10, 2008 18:44:28 I'd rather they just bring back Concerns and Criticisms, let the circus have its home there, and allow D&D General to be D&D General. D&D General is too much of a first time destination, and there are a lot of quality discussions that have nothing to do with the edition war that belong there.
#9
apollyonschosen
Jun 10, 2008 18:53:13 I see a variety of different topics being discussed there. Everything from production quality to hp as an abstract concept blah blah blah. You would almost have to shut down the boards completely to cool the fires of the current edition hating. Both sides seem to be bent on forcing their opinions on/insulting the other. Rather pointless. I can't argue that.
#10
Webster
Jun 10, 2008 20:52:59
I'd rather they just bring back Concerns and Criticisms, let the circus have its home there, and allow D&D General to be D&D General. D&D General is too much of a first time destination, and there are a lot of quality discussions that have nothing to do with the edition war that belong there.

Nah, that forum doesn't need to return. It only encouraged flaming and trolling.

The situation really is temporary. What we could do is move threads and direct people to the proper forums.

Want to discuss 3e? Go to the previous editions boards. Want to discuss 4e? Use the current boards. Want to compare the two systems? There's a gleemax section that discusses role playing games.
#11
Webster
Jun 10, 2008 21:12:26 Plus, today/later today I'll be cleaning that forum up.
#12
seTiny
Jun 10, 2008 21:42:32 Webster your avatar needs a badge. You've been cleaning up a lot of ~~streets~~ forums lately :P
#42
emwasick
Jun 12, 2008 15:25:05
Umm, could you provide evidence of this?? I have read both of the threads on the ink smudging, and not once has Scott Rouse insulted people about it.

We're not at the "evidence" stage of this claim. We're at the "persecuted minority" stage. It's a subtle tactic- make an outrageous claim, get called out, then start new drama by pointing fingers back at the people who ask you to justify your outrageous claim. My advice is not to respond any more.
#43
hellmute
Jun 12, 2008 17:08:43
Umm, could you provide evidence of this?? I have read both of the threads on the ink smudging, and not once has Scott Rouse insulted people about it.

It is just the way some of the things he says comes out.

~People with dirty hands.~

I guess it is sort of the same problem I have with many of the D&D articles of late. Their presentation is made in sort of a condescending manner. Probably leftover from making fun of 3rd in the videos and never got out of their system.

With all the things going on with failure to deliver DDI, and forums problems and all. It is very easy for people to be on a short fuse. So you have to take extra care not only in what you say, but how you say it.
#44
horatioatthebridge
Jun 12, 2008 19:19:11 I like discussing the changes. I like hearing what people think about a particular rule, or how wizards play. And honestly speaking, the CharOp, Role, and Adventure Design forums don't deliver what I'm looking for (and I've been looking lately). They tend to discuss how to use the rules, not the metagame impact, the design behind them, or just what people think about them. That sort of discussion rightly belongs on the General Discussion forum.

The problem is that the General Discussion forum is neither General nor a Discussion at this point. Even when people talk about about a specific rule, class, race, or whatever, it's almost always in the context of "and this is why 4e sucks/is awesome!" Nothing's getting discussed for it's own sake--it's all fodder for the ongoing edition war. If people want to get upset about the changes, that's fine, but I want to discuss the changes themselves. Where can I go to do that? Nowhere, currently.
#45
mudbunny
Jun 13, 2008 8:33:54
It is just the way some of the things he says comes out.

~People with dirty hands.~

If only that was what he said. If you got that impression from his posts, then I can only conclude you read his posts *looking* for a reason to complain. Because if you actually read what he wrote, you see that he said nothing of the sort. (Insulting gamers by calling them dirty.)
#46
thecasualoblivion
Jun 13, 2008 8:54:52
I like discussing the changes. I like hearing what people think about a particular rule, or how wizards play. And honestly speaking, the CharOp, Role, and Adventure Design forums don't deliver what I'm looking for (and I've been looking lately). They tend to discuss how to use the rules, not the metagame impact, the design behind them, or just what people think about them. That sort of discussion rightly belongs on the General Discussion forum.

The problem is that the General Discussion forum is neither General nor a Discussion at this point. Even when people talk about about a specific rule, class, race, or whatever, it's almost always in the context of "and this is why 4e sucks/is awesome!" Nothing's getting discussed for it's own sake--it's all fodder for the ongoing edition war. If people want to get upset about the changes, that's fine, but I want to discuss the changes themselves. Where can I go to do that? Nowhere, currently.

And this is the reason for this thread.
#47
kimli
Jun 13, 2008 16:39:48
So what common ground is left for all users?

CS/CM hates the users, the users hate CM/CS.

3.x players hate 4th edition players and TSR edition players.

4th edition players hate all older edition players.

TSR edition player hate 4th edition players.

The only common ground it seems is that everyone hates everyone else.

I have played all of the editions of dnd. I like each for what it is/was. I wouldn't really want to be in any specific category. I would hate to think that most people are divided into those categories, but perhaps you are correct.

I think that people should stick to the part of the forums they are interested in. I have zero interest in reading hate crap about a specific edition, because some troll opens their browser, and decides to write something insubstantial about something.
#48
oldgamer75
Jun 13, 2008 18:38:27
I have played all of the editions of dnd. I like each for what it is/was. I wouldn't really want to be in any specific category. I would hate to think that most people are divided into those categories, but perhaps you are correct.

I think that people should stick to the part of the forums they are interested in. I have zero interest in reading hate crap about a specific edition, because some troll opens their browser, and decides to write something insubstantial about something.

I don't believe most people ARE divided into 'those categories.'

However, enough are to cause a 'ruckus.' [Man -- the mere fact that I use this word just typed me as ... well, old!]

I actually very much enjoy the disagreements, the differing points of view, the light produced when sparks are struck. It's the bad attitude, the disrespect, and the outright hate that I could do without.

Respect. Mutual respect. This is what is lacking.
#49
Webster
Jun 16, 2008 1:50:41 The cleanup continues.

I'm just having any sort of meta type thread, such as complaints about other members, complaints about complaints and so on closed. That's not the forum for those sorts of discussions, and the WizOs have enough stuff with thread moves and merges.
#50
horatioatthebridge
Jun 16, 2008 12:20:27 Just out of curiosity, where is the proper forum for complaining about other users and complaining about complaining? Here?
#51
emwasick
Jun 16, 2008 12:37:27
The cleanup continues.

I'm just having any sort of meta type thread, such as complaints about other members, complaints about complaints and so on closed. That's not the forum for those sorts of discussions, and the WizOs have enough stuff with thread moves and merges.

Thanks for all your efforts in D&D General. It's nice not to have 20 of the same topic anymore.
#52
etarnon
Jun 16, 2008 13:27:28 Hellmute wrote:

A Brilliant Post # 30.

That's exactly my feeling about the whole deal / ongoing ruckus, right there. Would that I had the patience to write it.

If Wotc is selling D&D, D&D is not JUST 4e, not matter how much the PR dept says so. We're talking 30 years or more of D&D + D&D fans, playing D&D, in existence. Now with 4e out less than a month, it's supposed to revolutionize all D&D??!?!

Who came up with that?

The problem is: Russia collapsed because one of the major factors was too much change, too rapid. Pseudo democracy arrived, and they converted to it too rapidly. That's what I see here.

D&D, It's all editions. Yeah TSR designed about a quarter of it, compared to the number of books, etc sold post 3e's invention by WotC.

That doesn't change the fact that 4e is just another game line, not all of D&D. Just like TSR released Hunt for Red October, the board game. It was not supposed to be the do all and be all of all mdern submarine warfare. and it wasn't, NOR DID IT CLAIM TO BE.

That's a key major point. 4e claiming to be the new and improved.. D&D. Which was what 3.5 was which was was 3rd edition was...

Come on. People aren't buying it. Have 4e out there. But don't force everyone to it. That's just not gonna happen.

Many will like it. Many right now, love it.

But if the overwhelming attitude was NOT 4e or get lost...there would be a stream of "I hate the new 4e, I love the new 4e." sure...

But you wouldn't have all of the "Disenfranchised 3e, people lumped in with 1e and 2e fans, set in opposition to 4e, by being lumped together, totally ****** off that everyone not a fan of 4e has been shunted to the side in the quest of "4e is the cool stuff, and that's what WotC is about, these days."

Too late now, though. People are leaving, totally ****** off.

And it DIDN'T NEED to BE that way.

Did. Not.

I want to know who led the charge to that basic core idea...4e wheat vs all other editions = chaff.

Seriously.

That's who is responsible for this whole mess.
#53
vaalingrade_ashland_02
Jun 16, 2008 18:02:29 There's a whole forum on here for people not playing the currnet incarnation of DnD:

http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=-1&f=8

But the fact is that the current and supported version of DnD is 4e. The others are out of print unless you count Hackmaster, Rollmaster and soon Pathfinder. In which case, allt hose companies have thier own official forums.
#54
the_ubbergeek
Jun 16, 2008 18:35:40 The current and official version is the one that matters, really. It's by goodwill and graciousness(?) that they offer an out of print forum(s).

It's how things work. They are even rather generous and leniant, I say.
#55
hellmute
Jun 16, 2008 19:06:08 Or through complete ignorance you missed the fact that Gleemax is "the home for all gamers online", therefore requiring an OOP section for people, otherwise they should not allow non-WotC IP discussions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thecasualoblivion Jun 10, 2008 16:56:03	That place is a mess right now. I was a regular on the 4E Concerns and Criticisms board for months and I don't remember that place ever being this bad. There are a number of problems there: 1. Traffic--That place is really busy, and getting more traffic than it should. A topic with its last post 1hr previous is already on page two. Is there any way we could split this forum? 2. Edition Wars--Almost every thread there is an edition war between 3E and 4E(and occasionally AD&D 1E/2E). Threads that aren't edition wars tend to become edition wars before page two. Its a bit out of control. 3. Camps--There are two main camps of people, with positive and negative opinions on 4E arguing with each other. There are also a number of people who are upset about everybody arguing with each other. There are too many people arguing right now to count, too many to place on ignore, and it seems like new people come to that forum every day and join the arguments out of nowhere. These camps have shown absolutely no ability to get along, and this doesn't seem likely to change, especially with all the new people who seem to join the fracas every day. 4 On Topic--There really isn't any solid information on what is supposed to be there. You have people who come to the board who want to talk about the game, people who come to complain about the game and say that the previous version is better, and people who are only there for the drama. Civil discussion doesn't really seem to be possible between some of these groups. Defining On-Topic and a definition where there can be civil discussion, and maybe different forums where different opinions can discuss their opinions in peace without edition wars.
#2 kimli Jun 10, 2008 17:05:58	I agree, and think they should re-tool these forums. I have yet to be able to find things that I have been in, and it takes forever for stuff to load. I'm about to call it quits for a while, until they get it right.
#3 thecasualoblivion Jun 10, 2008 17:22:33	Something to add to the original post. Reading the General Discussion forum over the past week, what is going on there isn't trolling, baiting, or anything that really violates the CoC. Its just two groups of people who can't seem to get along and can't participate in a civil discussion.
#4 Artifact Jun 10, 2008 17:59:01	It's not pretty but people are passionate about this game, they need to get things out of their system. Since the CoC isn't really being violated in most cases (as you mention), the posters should be left to their own devices, for better or worse. I think trying to "bottle" all this up would do more harm than good. I'm really anxious to talk about the new game, but for now, I'm just lurking, letting the chaos play out as it must. Within a few months (at most), I expect things will be back normal (or at least what passes for it around here :P).
#5 oldgamer75 Jun 10, 2008 18:01:13	Something to add to the original post. Reading the General Discussion forum over the past week, what is going on there isn't trolling, baiting, or anything that really violates the CoC. Its just two groups of people who can't seem to get along and can't participate in a civil discussion. I haven't even been around a year yet, but I would like to 'second' this person's concerns. It's bad enough that I find myself reluctant to visit that forum anymore. The arguments have grown intense enough to bring out the worst in everyone. And no one seems able to back down.
#6 the_ubbergeek Jun 10, 2008 18:36:17	Thirded. It's tedious... And a somewhat similar atmosphere is running cooly in the FR place; there is the pros and antis too. Just wait when the new setting book(s) will be out...
#7 apollyonschosen Jun 10, 2008 18:36:28	It will blow over. Please ignore the forums for awhile, and work on the DDI app that isnt ready yet. And shipping the rest of the books so people who have ordered them can recieve them, screw all that other stuff. Geez it's not like you can't subscribe to a topic. We don't need admins to hold our hands. People are voicing their opinions about the new edition. People are pretty passionate about the subject and may need a place to vent/offer feed back. Aren't there plenty of forums to move to if you find the GD too busy or chaotic? Let's move beyond the kindergarten stage of tattling and let people speak their minds.
#8 thecasualoblivion Jun 10, 2008 18:44:28	I'd rather they just bring back Concerns and Criticisms, let the circus have its home there, and allow D&D General to be D&D General. D&D General is too much of a first time destination, and there are a lot of quality discussions that have nothing to do with the edition war that belong there.
#9 apollyonschosen Jun 10, 2008 18:53:13	I see a variety of different topics being discussed there. Everything from production quality to hp as an abstract concept blah blah blah. You would almost have to shut down the boards completely to cool the fires of the current edition hating. Both sides seem to be bent on forcing their opinions on/insulting the other. Rather pointless. I can't argue that.
#10 Webster Jun 10, 2008 20:52:59	I'd rather they just bring back Concerns and Criticisms, let the circus have its home there, and allow D&D General to be D&D General. D&D General is too much of a first time destination, and there are a lot of quality discussions that have nothing to do with the edition war that belong there. Nah, that forum doesn't need to return. It only encouraged flaming and trolling. The situation really is temporary. What we could do is move threads and direct people to the proper forums. Want to discuss 3e? Go to the previous editions boards. Want to discuss 4e? Use the current boards. Want to compare the two systems? There's a gleemax section that discusses role playing games.
#11 Webster Jun 10, 2008 21:12:26	Plus, today/later today I'll be cleaning that forum up.
#12 seTiny Jun 10, 2008 21:42:32	Webster your avatar needs a badge. You've been cleaning up a lot of ~~streets~~ forums lately :P
#42 emwasick Jun 12, 2008 15:25:05	Umm, could you provide evidence of this?? I have read both of the threads on the ink smudging, and not once has Scott Rouse insulted people about it. We're not at the "evidence" stage of this claim. We're at the "persecuted minority" stage. It's a subtle tactic- make an outrageous claim, get called out, then start new drama by pointing fingers back at the people who ask you to justify your outrageous claim. My advice is not to respond any more.
#43 hellmute Jun 12, 2008 17:08:43	Umm, could you provide evidence of this?? I have read both of the threads on the ink smudging, and not once has Scott Rouse insulted people about it. It is just the way some of the things he says comes out. ~People with dirty hands.~ I guess it is sort of the same problem I have with many of the D&D articles of late. Their presentation is made in sort of a condescending manner. Probably leftover from making fun of 3rd in the videos and never got out of their system. With all the things going on with failure to deliver DDI, and forums problems and all. It is very easy for people to be on a short fuse. So you have to take extra care not only in what you say, but how you say it.
#44 horatioatthebridge Jun 12, 2008 19:19:11	I like discussing the changes. I like hearing what people think about a particular rule, or how wizards play. And honestly speaking, the CharOp, Role, and Adventure Design forums don't deliver what I'm looking for (and I've been looking lately). They tend to discuss how to use the rules, not the metagame impact, the design behind them, or just what people think about them. That sort of discussion rightly belongs on the General Discussion forum. The problem is that the General Discussion forum is neither General nor a Discussion at this point. Even when people talk about about a specific rule, class, race, or whatever, it's almost always in the context of "and this is why 4e sucks/is awesome!" Nothing's getting discussed for it's own sake--it's all fodder for the ongoing edition war. If people want to get upset about the changes, that's fine, but I want to discuss the changes themselves. Where can I go to do that? Nowhere, currently.
#45 mudbunny Jun 13, 2008 8:33:54	It is just the way some of the things he says comes out. ~People with dirty hands.~ If only that was what he said. If you got that impression from his posts, then I can only conclude you read his posts looking for a reason to complain. Because if you actually read what he wrote, you see that he said nothing of the sort. (Insulting gamers by calling them dirty.)
#46 thecasualoblivion Jun 13, 2008 8:54:52	I like discussing the changes. I like hearing what people think about a particular rule, or how wizards play. And honestly speaking, the CharOp, Role, and Adventure Design forums don't deliver what I'm looking for (and I've been looking lately). They tend to discuss how to use the rules, not the metagame impact, the design behind them, or just what people think about them. That sort of discussion rightly belongs on the General Discussion forum. The problem is that the General Discussion forum is neither General nor a Discussion at this point. Even when people talk about about a specific rule, class, race, or whatever, it's almost always in the context of "and this is why 4e sucks/is awesome!" Nothing's getting discussed for it's own sake--it's all fodder for the ongoing edition war. If people want to get upset about the changes, that's fine, but I want to discuss the changes themselves. Where can I go to do that? Nowhere, currently. And this is the reason for this thread.
#47 kimli Jun 13, 2008 16:39:48	So what common ground is left for all users? CS/CM hates the users, the users hate CM/CS. 3.x players hate 4th edition players and TSR edition players. 4th edition players hate all older edition players. TSR edition player hate 4th edition players. The only common ground it seems is that everyone hates everyone else. I have played all of the editions of dnd. I like each for what it is/was. I wouldn't really want to be in any specific category. I would hate to think that most people are divided into those categories, but perhaps you are correct. I think that people should stick to the part of the forums they are interested in. I have zero interest in reading hate crap about a specific edition, because some troll opens their browser, and decides to write something insubstantial about something.
#48 oldgamer75 Jun 13, 2008 18:38:27	I have played all of the editions of dnd. I like each for what it is/was. I wouldn't really want to be in any specific category. I would hate to think that most people are divided into those categories, but perhaps you are correct. I think that people should stick to the part of the forums they are interested in. I have zero interest in reading hate crap about a specific edition, because some troll opens their browser, and decides to write something insubstantial about something. I don't believe most people ARE divided into 'those categories.' However, enough are to cause a 'ruckus.' [Man -- the mere fact that I use this word just typed me as ... well, old!] I actually very much enjoy the disagreements, the differing points of view, the light produced when sparks are struck. It's the bad attitude, the disrespect, and the outright hate that I could do without. Respect. Mutual respect. This is what is lacking.
#49 Webster Jun 16, 2008 1:50:41	The cleanup continues. I'm just having any sort of meta type thread, such as complaints about other members, complaints about complaints and so on closed. That's not the forum for those sorts of discussions, and the WizOs have enough stuff with thread moves and merges.
#50 horatioatthebridge Jun 16, 2008 12:20:27	Just out of curiosity, where is the proper forum for complaining about other users and complaining about complaining? Here?
#51 emwasick Jun 16, 2008 12:37:27	The cleanup continues. I'm just having any sort of meta type thread, such as complaints about other members, complaints about complaints and so on closed. That's not the forum for those sorts of discussions, and the WizOs have enough stuff with thread moves and merges. Thanks for all your efforts in D&D General. It's nice not to have 20 of the same topic anymore.
#52 etarnon Jun 16, 2008 13:27:28	Hellmute wrote: A Brilliant Post # 30. That's exactly my feeling about the whole deal / ongoing ruckus, right there. Would that I had the patience to write it. If Wotc is selling D&D, D&D is not JUST 4e, not matter how much the PR dept says so. We're talking 30 years or more of D&D + D&D fans, playing D&D, in existence. Now with 4e out less than a month, it's supposed to revolutionize all D&D??!?! Who came up with that? The problem is: Russia collapsed because one of the major factors was too much change, too rapid. Pseudo democracy arrived, and they converted to it too rapidly. That's what I see here. D&D, It's all editions. Yeah TSR designed about a quarter of it, compared to the number of books, etc sold post 3e's invention by WotC. That doesn't change the fact that 4e is just another game line, not all of D&D. Just like TSR released Hunt for Red October, the board game. It was not supposed to be the do all and be all of all mdern submarine warfare. and it wasn't, NOR DID IT CLAIM TO BE. That's a key major point. 4e claiming to be the new and improved.. D&D. Which was what 3.5 was which was was 3rd edition was... Come on. People aren't buying it. Have 4e out there. But don't force everyone to it. That's just not gonna happen. Many will like it. Many right now, love it. But if the overwhelming attitude was NOT 4e or get lost...there would be a stream of "I hate the new 4e, I love the new 4e." sure... But you wouldn't have all of the "Disenfranchised 3e, people lumped in with 1e and 2e fans, set in opposition to 4e, by being lumped together, totally **** off that everyone not a fan of 4e has been shunted to the side in the quest of "4e is the cool stuff, and that's what WotC is about, these days." Too late now, though. People are leaving, totally **** off. And it DIDN'T NEED to BE that way. Did. Not. I want to know who led the charge to that basic core idea...4e wheat vs all other editions = chaff. Seriously. That's who is responsible for this whole mess.
#53 vaalingrade_ashland_02 Jun 16, 2008 18:02:29	There's a whole forum on here for people not playing the currnet incarnation of DnD: http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=-1&f=8 But the fact is that the current and supported version of DnD is 4e. The others are out of print unless you count Hackmaster, Rollmaster and soon Pathfinder. In which case, allt hose companies have thier own official forums.
#54 the_ubbergeek Jun 16, 2008 18:35:40	The current and official version is the one that matters, really. It's by goodwill and graciousness(?) that they offer an out of print forum(s). It's how things work. They are even rather generous and leniant, I say.
#55 hellmute Jun 16, 2008 19:06:08	Or through complete ignorance you missed the fact that Gleemax is "the home for all gamers online", therefore requiring an OOP section for people, otherwise they should not allow non-WotC IP discussions.