Things are broken, and they aren't going to be fixed.
Barring some police state style action from board management, the current state of affairs will continue unabated for the forseeable future. There isn't common ground, no understanding, and most of all no solution. We have here a situation where something was lost. 3E was D&D almost lock, stock and barrel, and it no longer is. This has hurt some people, and I don't think this can be fixed. Things will never be as they once were. Meanwhile, other people have embraced the new edition and don't feel they should be punished for it, and aren't happy with those hurt by the change turning the newborn 4E community into a warzone. Given the current atmosphere, I don't really see this changing in the near future either.
This is the reality of the present, and at this point I think its time to deal with that reality instead of talking about how things should be and how to fix something that isn't going to be fixed. This is how it is. I'm not really sure how to deal with it, or how to behave anymore, but for the time being I feel the necessity to accept that the D&D community as a whole is a mess, and adjust my D&D existence accordingly. Its more a question of how to live inside a divided house.
In my opinion, all the talk about the current state of things is stale air. There is only one thing that will change the situation, and that is time. In time, 3E fans will find out where their game fits into the scheme of things to come, and either embrace their game in its future situation or get on with their lives. 4E will either establish itself as D&D or it won't, and either way it will eventually settle into its own existance.
So yes, divorce may be the only solution.
Even if separation or common ground doesn't happen. Seriously, all it would take is a little courtesy and common sense. The last couple of weeks have seemed like, just as everything is dying down and getting back to normal somebody intentionally fans the flames to keep them going.
-You should check out the FR Forums.
-I am guilty of it to. :embarrass
18DELTA ;)
The main problem is that certain posters on both sides just can't resist baiting and being baited. Poster 'A' will open with a wildly general staement, usually containing the phrase "Everyone...". Poster 'B' responds by asking for confirmation, clarifacation or with a general statement of their own. Poster 'A' responds, in depth, throwing in more general statements, maybe some scewed statistics and taking quotes from poster 'B'
more than likely out of context. Poster 'B' responds in kind, lather, rinse, repeat. At some point in the exchange the thread gets derailed, several other posters will try an intervention, but fail miserably. And at no point in the exchange do facts enter into the discussion. For the most part these debates are mainly about an opinion.
If you could only put in your posts the phrase, "in my opinion" or "it's not what I like".
18DELTA is right, over in the FR forums it happens, not alot, but it does.
But we have a respect for each others opinions, even if we disagree with those opinions.
Bel
In time, 3E fans will find out where their game fits into the scheme of things to come, and either embrace their game in its future situation or get on with their lives.
Some however won't ever embrace it or let it go unpunished as long as they are capable.
There are certain things that are "sacred cows" that were removed by intent, particularly true multiclassing and save or dies/suck, which is causing a lot of the aggression against 4e. The redistribution of the power curve is also an issue with many; especially the fact that 30th level 4e PCs are as powerful as 20th level 3e PCs. Most of the rest is slated for future release.
However, all of these things can be house-ruled in. I am working on houserules for charm and domination spells, and for multiclassing (pick two or more classes (DM's choice on how many). Every time you level up, you can pick freely from either class for selecting your powers. You get all the powers of the class that aren't covered by the at-will/encounter/daily/utility rules).
When I finish that I'm going to add another tier, the "mythic" tier, which will cover levels 31-40 and feel more like the 3e Epic Level Handbook only more smoothly integrated with the core than ELH was to the PHB, and less abusable. I might even make tiers up to level 100 (I don't know yet)
When I finish those I am going to tackle other 3e-isms that didn't make it into 4e that I feel are required for it to feel like D&D.
It is a pity that the core isn't more complete, but that's life for you. Remember, 4e is almost as modular as 3e, meaning you can add or take away as much as you like.
Look there will always be "edition wars". Period. Just as there are Warhammer vs Warcarft wars. Or Star Wars vs Star Trek.
In the end there is only one way forward:
Recognition that liking one does not mean the other is flawed. Recognition that citing the merit of one does not mean the other has failed. And recognition that neither can be all things to all people.
I love Star Wars for what it is: Epic, heroic, one against the universe. There are times where that's the kind of fantasy I want to be in for those two hours. Two hours of watching the little guy learn, grow and kick the big bad evil empire in the nads. Now you are free to say that you prefer Star Trek and it's pseudo realism, it's reliance on technology rather than mysticism.
Fine, that's good. But let me have my Star Wars, and you can have your Star Trek and once in a while we can remind each other why we like one over the other as civil adults.
That is the only way for these edition wars to end. To stop thinking of them as trying to convince the other side that they are right and simply acknoweldge that they are different.
Rorlins
I for one feel that the edition war will settle on 4e's favor with more splatbooks. Currently 4e feels about 50% complete.
The fact that certain classes or races haven't been adapted to 4E yet isn't what's fueling the edition war, and filling in those gaps isn't what will win people over. 4E has a different style than 3E, and people are going to stick with the style that they prefer.
The fact that certain classes or races haven't been adapted to 4E yet isn't what's fueling the edition war, and filling in those gaps isn't what will win people over. 4E has a different style than 3E, and people are going to stick with the style that they prefer.
Eh, it's a good portion of the issue right now. "I won't touch 4E until there's a decent Bard and not just this Marshal ripoff" is a fairly common refrain. I agree that there's much more to this than the existence or lack-thereof of certain classes or races, but it's something a lot of people are seeing as a sticking point right now.
As to when this will all "get better," I personally find the question kind of funny. It may just have been my personal experience here (I was one of the guys who loved 3.5 Psionics, jumped on the ToB bandwagon early, got dragged into the old Fighter threads and got in debate after debate about Lightsaber damage on the Star Wars forums), but there really isn't anything overly hostile about this forum right now when you put it into a historical context. This place was never terribly friendly, it's always been filled with heated debate. The only difference is now we've got something specific to feel enflamed about and to use to distort the stuff other people post.
It's all noise, that's all that it ever was. There are disagreements, there are active trolls, but it's been this way at least as long as I've been here. 3E/4E is contentious, but so was every other thing that was ever changed or added to D&D. We've always had these debates and arguments, it's just closer to the surface for a lot of posters than it was before.
Frankly, with the exception of a few career trolls, General Discussion is the friendliest I've seen any of the "post your random thoughts about the game here where we can disagree with them" forums since I signed up here. The Star Wars boards are routinely more pleasant, but the average poster age is also about 7 years higher over there.
In short, this isn't about any "Edition War." It's just business as usual dressed up in a new suit with slightly sharper knuckles. It'll die down after a bit, then the next thing will set it off again. It's the cycle of life. That's not to say we all couldn't benefit from being a little more civil to each other, but there isn't going to come a day when the clouds open up and the light of justice and civility cleanses this place; this is just how it is.
Really people just need to be respectful and polite arround here.
Aloha!
Although, I must say, some of the posts both for and against, are exceedingly amusing.
It's not some edition war that makes these message boards a hostile place. People can debate, whether to 4e or not to 4e respectfully. The folks I game with have been doing it for a while. This place has had trolls lurking and baiting posters into flamewars, well before the announcement of 4e. You need a thick skin to hang arround these parts.
Really people just need to be respectful and polite arround here.
Aloha!
I agree with you 100%, and I find it true of most forums even the non rpg ones. People need to carry themselves like they would in "real" life, you know being respectful of one another. And afterall it is just a game or rather 2 games. I am an old school guy so maybe I am not as effected anymore but I know how it feels to have your game taken from you. Hell when we got 3rd editon most of us grognards weren't happy at all. Life goes on we all like gaming let's treat it like that.
I mean, how old is 3E its like 6 years now? right? or les. But really, noone said you dont have enough 3E books to last you, like, playing forever!
I mean i have them. And my players got bored after 4 years, we went Whitwolf, then we got bored, now we are on 4E.
Lets face it, you cant keep playing the same pc game for more then a year! (if it takes you that much.)
I noticed people are talking "war" of edditions and sum such nonsense. :D it sounds geeky, no, really!
Point.
Keep your books! Play them. The world of Forgoten Realms wont change that much that you need to by the new books.
wow i was atempting my diplomacy skill check
I don't get the drama. Its just a game.
This game holds special importance for me. If 4e was not completely terrible, I would have switched to it. As is, I cannot let it go unpunished. I care about D&D and I won't rest in the face of this.
I cannot let it go unpunished.
Unless you sit on the Hasbro Board of Directors, you lack the power to punish anybody beyond withholding your money (which I assume you've already done). (I'm also assuming you're not going to be engaging in criminal vandalism.)
I care about D&D and I won't rest in the face of this.
As long as we're talking like this, I hear that homelessness, illiteracy, hate crimes, poverty, and starvation are still problems in our country and around the world. Also there is a new version of D&D that some people don't like.
As far as the edition wars calming down, well when 3E came out there were still flamewars sprouting up two years later, so good luck with hoping it ends soon. Give it about three years and things will settle down just in time for 4.5E to be announced.
As far as editions well I think 4E might be the first edition I continue to play for a long time. Since 1st edition I have essentially had one or two short campaigns per edition and moved on to other games. This one gives me the same warm fuzzy 1st edition did without the needless charts.
Honestly, I understand that there are some people who simply can't wrap themeselves around 4E. One of the obvious differences some friends have talked about is that the liked how the 3E wizard was extremely fragile for the first few levels, but became hugely powerful in the mid levels and completely overpowered any other class in the later levels. Other classes had more survivability early on, but paled in comparison to the wizard power at high levels. Now, in 4E, everyone starts with a more equal survivability with equivalent powers. At higher levels (even though I haven't actually played them) it seems that they will also have more equivalent abilities.
My old friends prefered the difference of 3E. I prefer the balance of 4E. They are staying behind with their 3E books. I'm moving on with 4E. We each have groups that are good to go with whatever our choice was. I don't see any problem.
What I don't see on this forum is the options for people. Everyone seems to act like now that 4E is out, everyone MUST switch to playing 4E. Why? There are plenty (IMO too many) 3E books already out there. Just because 4E was released didn't mean that the self-distruct device in your 3E books was activated. (I know that a few would love to have symbols in their signatures, similar to military ribbons, indicating just how many 3E books they purchased over the years -- "30+ books!") I'm sure Ebay will have a market for all of the 4E guys selling off their old 3E books. And there is even some companies out there who are continuing with 3E rules and even continuing with 3E products (Paizo). So there is even fresh life being pumped into 3E.
So why the problem? There are many options out there. Why does anyone feel the need to so violently attack or defend their beliefs here?
I don't know -- but I'll still have fun reading the more hilarious discussions.
What I don't see on this forum is the options for people. Everyone seems to act like now that 4E is out, everyone MUST switch to playing 4E. Why? There are plenty (IMO too many) 3E books already out there. Just because 4E was released didn't mean that the self-distruct device in your 3E books was activated. (I know that a few would love to have symbols in their signatures, similar to military ribbons, indicating just how many 3E books they purchased over the years -- "30+ books!") I'm sure Ebay will have a market for all of the 4E guys selling off their old 3E books. And there is even some companies out there who are continuing with 3E rules and even continuing with 3E products (Paizo). So there is even fresh life being pumped into 3E.
So why the problem? There are many options out there. Why does anyone feel the need to so violently attack or defend their beliefs here?
I don't know -- but I'll still have fun reading the more hilarious discussions.
I haven't seen anybody even try to convince people they should switch.
There are a lot of people that come on and basically ask how to houserule 4th edition into 3.5 and get very offended when people suggest they just keep playing 3.5. I really don't understand. Just play what you like and don't insult people who make a different choice.
I agree that there are some very entertaining discussions going on. :D
I haven't seen anybody even try to convince people they should switch.
-You don't look hard enough, then. :P
-I've been proselytized by three different people, trying to convert me to 4e, because it's a 'superior system', and so on and so on and so on. Two by via PM, and one via E-Mail.
I haven't seen anybody even try to convince people they should switch.
There are a lot of people that come on and basically ask how to houserule 4th edition into 3.5 and get very offended when people suggest they just keep playing 3.5. I really don't understand. Just play what you like and don't insult people who make a different choice.
I agree that there are some very entertaining discussions going on. :D
Actually it is the comments like "read the book", "if you actually played the game", "Nice try kiddo", and "3e is for people without an imagination" that get us offended.
-You don't look hard enough, then. :P
-I've been proselytized by three different people, trying to convert me to 4e, because it's a 'superior system', and so on and so on and so on. Two by via PM, and one via E-Mail.
I admit, I only read the threads with interesting titles and that aren't already over 5 pages by the first time I see them. I could easily miss lots of stuff.
I can't see what people are doing by PM and email. I should have realized there are lots of people with their tempers up and some have probably done stupid things. I just don't understand the attitude, on either side, that one game can be better for all people.
What I don't see on this forum is the options for people. Everyone seems to act like now that 4E is out, everyone MUST switch to playing 4E. Why? There are plenty (IMO too many) 3E books already out there. Just because 4E was released didn't mean that the self-distruct device in your 3E books was activated. (I know that a few would love to have symbols in their signatures, similar to military ribbons, indicating just how many 3E books they purchased over the years -- "30+ books!") I'm sure Ebay will have a market for all of the 4E guys selling off their old 3E books. And there is even some companies out there who are continuing with 3E rules and even continuing with 3E products (Paizo). So there is even fresh life being pumped into 3E.
So why the problem? There are many options out there. Why does anyone feel the need to so violently attack or defend their beliefs here?
I don't know -- but I'll still have fun reading the more hilarious discussions.
Its about loss. Aside from a few splinter groups playing BEMCI and AD&D, the 3E crowd used to have D&D all to themselves. They don't anymore, and they never will have it all to themselves again. They can play the game they like all they want, but they're playing "old D&D", and won't have the strength of the brand name like they used to. The brand name makes a better sell in finding new players, and people feel better when their game is getting current, up to date support. 3E is going to have to compete with 4E for new blood, and that is likely going to be a losing battle. 4E is new and shiny, currently being sold new and assured of future support in the near future, and IMO is a much friendlier game for new players and particularly new DMs. On the whole, OGL and 3PP support just isn't the same as the game being supported by D&D itself, so Pathfinder isn't going to make up for it.
People have a right to be hurt over this. Things have been broken. Its just a question of whether attacking and harassing the 4E community(or simply making life unpleasant in the official forums to discuss 4E) is the right way to respond to that hurt.
4E is new and shiny...
-It says as much in the PHB.
The 3E forums being unceremoniously dumped into the Previous Editions forums was, in my opinion, a very poor choice of action on the part of the board moderators. Did it make logical sense? Sure, of course it did. Did it make sense from a customer relations standpoint? It certainly did not.
A great deal of gamers (ie: the people buying WotC's product) were a little hurt by having the 3E forum, and by implication it's players, "put out to pasture." Some people regarded this as WotC saying: "Hey, all you 3E players are old-fashioned grognards who belong in virtual obscurity with the 1E and 2E players. Upgrade now, or go fade away!" That was obviously not the intention, but that remains how many people percieved it. And so, people want to express anger to that percieved slight; Unfortunately, they express their anger in the General Discussion forums.
A wiser decision would have been to indeed draw a clearer divide between the 4E and 3E forums, giving both forums an equal share of the "spotlight" instead of tossing 3E into the "previously-played bin." At least in the short term (say, the first year after the 4E release). Paring the 3E forums down to only a handful of categories only added insult to injury. Besides, performing a blanket thread-merging campaign (generally, an irreversible procedure) has little foresight to it.*
Now don't get me wrong, I fully understand the reasons for doing so. If I recall correctly, the concern was a lack of resources in monitoring the many forum categories. The logic behind that seems a little flawed to me personally. Lets face it, most of the people posting in the new 4E forum are people who may no longer be posting in a 3E forum... as such there would still be roughly the same volume of posts (barring the "new edition" release surge), just in more categories. The only greater strain in monitoring those threads would be in having to check more categories, each of which with fewer posts. A few more clicks of the mouse doesn't strike me as putting a huge strain on message board resources. I'm no expert though, I could be mistaken.
I already know what people will say, and have already said, in regards to edition segregation: That as gamers we should all just "get along." That works in theory, but not in practise. While I have no doubt that many (if not most) of us are mature enough to do so, many of us are not mature enough to do so. It's a fact. For that reason, edition segregation is the best way to go, if only to spare us from the ramblings of edition warmongers. If anything it would make it easier on the moderators, since they would have less threads to lock/merge* and posters to warn/ban.
Just my two coppers.
* Incidentally, I feel that some moderators have been a little too "trigger happy" with the merge button lately, but that's a topic for another thread.
am not being cynical. Am really honest.I love 4E ill play it. Alot.
I played 3.5 alot, i mean alot, like buchez of time. I have the books, and there are millions of story's i can tell with those rules. I might one day play them again. But when it comes to entertainment in my life, am a kinda guy that likes to move on after 6 years!!!. Experience new things. If one day they take D&D away from me altogether. Ill find something else to do. But don't think that i love the game less. I adore it.
Enough rambling..
Anyway Good luck to you guys!
A great deal of gamers (ie: the people buying WotC's product) were a little hurt by having the 3E forum, and by implication it's players, "put out to pasture." Some people regarded this as WotC saying: "Hey, all you 3E players are old-fashioned grognards who belong in virtual obscurity with the 1E and 2E players. Upgrade now, or go fade away!" That was obviously not the intention, but that remains how many people percieved it. And so, people want to express anger to that percieved slight; Unfortunately, they express their anger in the General Discussion forums.
A wiser decision would have been to indeed draw a clearer divide between the 4E and 3E forums, giving both forums an equal share of the "spotlight" instead of tossing 3E into the "previously-played bin." At least in the short term (say, the first year after the 4E release). Paring the 3E forums down to only a handful of categories only added insult to injury. Besides, performing a blanket thread-merging campaign (generally, an irreversible procedure) has little foresight to it.*
I wish to politely disagree with trying to deduce WOTC's intentions. I believe that they are trying to get everyone else off of 3E. They are a company who is trying to sell their product. They aren't selling 3E books anymore. While your arguments about admins on multiple forums has merit, I believe that it is just as much a business decision to lump 3E with all of the "old stuff", as an attempt to encourage everyone to move forward to the 4E (and buy their new books!).
Is it a wise decision? Is it the friendly way to do it? (ie. is it going to really upset those who are trying to stay with 3E?)
Well, again I agree with most of what you said. They could have avoided much of the angst by separating 3E and 4E and leaving 3E their own, exclusive, forum.
I wish to politely disagree with trying to deduce WOTC's intentions...
I wholeheartedly concur with you that there was a strong, er, "business related imperative" behind the decision to merge 3E into the previously-played bin. I intentionally didn't mention it though, since my opinion in that regard may be misinterpreted by some as veiled vitrol, and might have evoked unpleasant replies to my post.
My opinion is that, from a business perpective, the merge was likely intended to be a "subtle push" toward 4E. Unfortunately it instead resulted in a "steamroller tactic," virtually squashing it's 3E forums into the cyberspace doldrums. I believe the moderators simply underanticipated the anger that the merge would elicit.
But hey, the moderators are just people like you and me after all... they may make mistakes in the course of their duties. This just happened to be a big one. Besides, who's to say the command to merge 3E into previous editions wasn't handed down to the moderators from on high? We will never know the truth of the matter.
Suffice it to say, the 3E merge was an irreversible mistake that resulted in a great deal of angst from the 3E crowd. Unfortunately, segregating the 3E/4E forums at this point won't help too much (the damage is done). All I know is, it certainly wouldn't hurt.