Trolling, forum disruption, and dedicated non-constructive posting - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Trolling, forum disruption, and dedicated non-constructive posting

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Mand12
Aug 07, 2012 18:04:56 Is this a reportable offense?

If a poster continually and repeatedly does nothing but taking things out of context, willfully ignoring clear contradictory evidence and instead relying on complete fabrications, in posts that do nothing but shut down any possibility of constructive discussion, is that reportable?

I ask because it seems that making posts that attempt to call attention to such behavior is a reportable offense, and gets posts deleted and the user warned/suspended.
#2
trappedslider
Aug 07, 2012 18:20:11 posts that call others out are a violation sicne htey can be seen as baioting,but yes if you see a post that is trolling or baiting or both,report it along with why you think it violates the CoC
#3
Plaguescarred1
Aug 07, 2012 22:07:06 According to the Code of Conduct, it may be one by disrupting forums through either repeated posts or off-topic content in the wrong forums.

If you see such violation and want to report it, make sure to explain in detail why you think its a violation and copy the CoC article being violated. Some ORC will act on it, others not as its a more grey zone and the disruption must be evident (in my opinion) for them to action it.

6. Do not disrupt chat, forums, blog comments or other communication channels. For example:

Spam through repeated posts, or off-topic content by word or intent to forums or comments (scrolling, flooding, polling, or by "bumping" a post more than once in 48 hours)

Make off-topic posts or chat or trades in the wrong forums or chat rooms (casual chat or roleplay in rooms or forums not designated for these types of activities)

#4
crazy_monkey
Aug 07, 2012 22:42:14 Howdy folks,

Plaguescarred's post is pretty thorough, but I wanted to add that disagreeing with someone is not against the Code of Conduct. When you can't see eye to eye with someone, it is often best to just drop that part of the discussion and move on.

Thanks.
#5
wrecan
Aug 08, 2012 6:08:26
According to the Code of Conduct, it may be one by disrupting forums through either repeated posts or off-topic content in the wrong forums.

No. it's not. Edition warriors don't repeat themselves. There's only one way to say the truth, but there are infinite ways to misreresent things.

Let's be honest about it. Because edition warriors tend to attack the game, they are unlikely to run afoul of the Code of Conduct. Misrepresenting the playtest is not a violation of the Code of Conduct. Lying about what developers have said about the playtest does not violate the Coe of Conduct. It's not off-topic to most threads about the playtest. Is it "disruptive"? Of course, but I've never seen anybody get infracted for it, unless it also includes personal attacks.

Trolls can very easily avoid infraction. Just don't ever make a reference to an individual. Just lie, misrepresent, and rant about the game. Don't clone your own posts, but write new complaints phrased differently in as many threads as you care to, and respond to every response with feigned martyrdom, pretensions that you are being misrepresented or attacked. I can virtually guarantee that it will never be infracted.

Bonus protip: If people call you out on your behavior, you can have them infracted, because that is baiting.

And what makes it more difficult is I do believe that most trolls don't do it just for the kicks. They passionately believe that being the squeakiest wheel in the garage will get changes made to their taste. They believe that driving away people who disagree with them will skew the median in their favor. They believe that they are improving the game through this behavior. In reality, they are overly emotional people throwing tantrums that things aren't going their way, but they don't acknowledge that. They are sad, bitter, angry, and very passive aggressive. Those are not violations of the Code of Conduct no matter how much it poisons the atmosphere of the forums.
#6
zombie_babies
Aug 08, 2012 7:54:25
Is this a reportable offense?

If a poster continually and repeatedly does nothing but taking things out of context, willfully ignoring clear contradictory evidence and instead relying on complete fabrications, in posts that do nothing but shut down any possibility of constructive discussion, is that reportable?

I ask because it seems that making posts that attempt to call attention to such behavior is a reportable offense, and gets posts deleted and the user warned/suspended.

Constant misinterpretation - which I think we've all seen by now - is a tough one. How do you prove they did it on purpose? I mean, we know but it's not that easy to demonstrate that to an ORC who probably hasn't been reading the threads and likely won't bother to read surrounding posts for context. All I can suggest is trying the report button and doing so with detailed report text citing examples beyond the one you're reporting at the moment. Cite the pattern. Just be careful. Excessive reporting of a specific individual can be deemed harrassment and put you in the oven. Overall, I have to agree with wrecan. Because of how they do what they do, I fear there's little that can be done. Er, other than just ignoring them. And that may be easy for some but it gets difficult when even one person takes the bait. Trust me, I understand.
#7
Mand12
Aug 08, 2012 8:23:35
Those are not violations of the Code of Conduct no matter how much it poisons the atmosphere of the forums.

Which is my point. The Code of Conduct should not tolerate this behavior.

@Crazymonkey,

This is not about honest disagreement. This is about lying, misrepresenting the truth, repeatedly, and with the specific intent of shouting everyone away. It's been openly stated by several people that that is their goal, and that is their tactic.

This should not be the way things are here.

It's already been made clear that edition warring is against the rules, despite not actually violating the CoC. Why should this be any different?
#8
wrecan
Aug 08, 2012 10:00:58
Because of how they do what they do, I fear there's little that can be done. Er, other than just ignoring them.

And ignoring them only works if they are trying to get a reaction from you (which would make it baiting, and then against the CoC). But these people do not care if you respond with a post. In fact, their goal is not to get you to respond, but to get you to leave. And they do it, not by attacking you, but by making the forum feel like a place that is inhospitable and full of venom and anger. Their venom and their anger.

In this instance, ignoring them (and the threads in which they post) is exactly what they want. So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
#9
wrecan
Aug 08, 2012 10:17:06 In the end, we should not pretend that the Code of Conduct deals with this. It doesn't. We need to be open about it.

This is a conscious decision. We are tolerating poisonous substanceless inaccurate criticisms, because we don't want the ORCs to be turned into fact-checkers. We don't want people who have legitimate grievances, substantive suggestions, and constructive criticisms to get swept up in any effort to eliminate those who come here just to rant and drive others away. It's a high price to pay, but there are no good answers here. We tolerate the poison so we can also get the medicine.

And that's fine, as much as it pains me. But don't tell the people who complain that there's a workable solution. Don't tell them that ignoring the trolls makes them go away. It does not. Don't tell them that reporting such posts will get actions taken. It won't. These people are not directly violating the Code of Conduct. Reporting the post will not get them infracted, unless their post crosses some other line. In the end, having them on the forum is the necessary unfortunate consequence of having a tolerant policy designed to maximize the range of opinions that can be expressed here.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mand12 Aug 07, 2012 18:04:56	Is this a reportable offense? If a poster continually and repeatedly does nothing but taking things out of context, willfully ignoring clear contradictory evidence and instead relying on complete fabrications, in posts that do nothing but shut down any possibility of constructive discussion, is that reportable? I ask because it seems that making posts that attempt to call attention to such behavior is a reportable offense, and gets posts deleted and the user warned/suspended.
#2 trappedslider Aug 07, 2012 18:20:11	posts that call others out are a violation sicne htey can be seen as baioting,but yes if you see a post that is trolling or baiting or both,report it along with why you think it violates the CoC
#3 Plaguescarred1 Aug 07, 2012 22:07:06	According to the Code of Conduct, it may be one by disrupting forums through either repeated posts or off-topic content in the wrong forums. If you see such violation and want to report it, make sure to explain in detail why you think its a violation and copy the CoC article being violated. Some ORC will act on it, others not as its a more grey zone and the disruption must be evident (in my opinion) for them to action it. 6. Do not disrupt chat, forums, blog comments or other communication channels. For example: Spam through repeated posts, or off-topic content by word or intent to forums or comments (scrolling, flooding, polling, or by "bumping" a post more than once in 48 hours) Make off-topic posts or chat or trades in the wrong forums or chat rooms (casual chat or roleplay in rooms or forums not designated for these types of activities)
#4 crazy_monkey Aug 07, 2012 22:42:14	Howdy folks, Plaguescarred's post is pretty thorough, but I wanted to add that disagreeing with someone is not against the Code of Conduct. When you can't see eye to eye with someone, it is often best to just drop that part of the discussion and move on. Thanks.
#5 wrecan Aug 08, 2012 6:08:26	According to the Code of Conduct, it may be one by disrupting forums through either repeated posts or off-topic content in the wrong forums. No. it's not. Edition warriors don't repeat themselves. There's only one way to say the truth, but there are infinite ways to misreresent things. Let's be honest about it. Because edition warriors tend to attack the game, they are unlikely to run afoul of the Code of Conduct. Misrepresenting the playtest is not a violation of the Code of Conduct. Lying about what developers have said about the playtest does not violate the Coe of Conduct. It's not off-topic to most threads about the playtest. Is it "disruptive"? Of course, but I've never seen anybody get infracted for it, unless it also includes personal attacks. Trolls can very easily avoid infraction. Just don't ever make a reference to an individual. Just lie, misrepresent, and rant about the game. Don't clone your own posts, but write new complaints phrased differently in as many threads as you care to, and respond to every response with feigned martyrdom, pretensions that you are being misrepresented or attacked. I can virtually guarantee that it will never be infracted. Bonus protip: If people call you out on your behavior, you can have them infracted, because that is baiting. And what makes it more difficult is I do believe that most trolls don't do it just for the kicks. They passionately believe that being the squeakiest wheel in the garage will get changes made to their taste. They believe that driving away people who disagree with them will skew the median in their favor. They believe that they are improving the game through this behavior. In reality, they are overly emotional people throwing tantrums that things aren't going their way, but they don't acknowledge that. They are sad, bitter, angry, and very passive aggressive. Those are not violations of the Code of Conduct no matter how much it poisons the atmosphere of the forums.
#6 zombie_babies Aug 08, 2012 7:54:25	Is this a reportable offense? If a poster continually and repeatedly does nothing but taking things out of context, willfully ignoring clear contradictory evidence and instead relying on complete fabrications, in posts that do nothing but shut down any possibility of constructive discussion, is that reportable? I ask because it seems that making posts that attempt to call attention to such behavior is a reportable offense, and gets posts deleted and the user warned/suspended. Constant misinterpretation - which I think we've all seen by now - is a tough one. How do you prove they did it on purpose? I mean, we know but it's not that easy to demonstrate that to an ORC who probably hasn't been reading the threads and likely won't bother to read surrounding posts for context. All I can suggest is trying the report button and doing so with detailed report text citing examples beyond the one you're reporting at the moment. Cite the pattern. Just be careful. Excessive reporting of a specific individual can be deemed harrassment and put you in the oven. Overall, I have to agree with wrecan. Because of how they do what they do, I fear there's little that can be done. Er, other than just ignoring them. And that may be easy for some but it gets difficult when even one person takes the bait. Trust me, I understand.
#7 Mand12 Aug 08, 2012 8:23:35	Those are not violations of the Code of Conduct no matter how much it poisons the atmosphere of the forums. Which is my point. The Code of Conduct should not tolerate this behavior. @Crazymonkey, This is not about honest disagreement. This is about lying, misrepresenting the truth, repeatedly, and with the specific intent of shouting everyone away. It's been openly stated by several people that that is their goal, and that is their tactic. This should not be the way things are here. It's already been made clear that edition warring is against the rules, despite not actually violating the CoC. Why should this be any different?
#8 wrecan Aug 08, 2012 10:00:58	Because of how they do what they do, I fear there's little that can be done. Er, other than just ignoring them. And ignoring them only works if they are trying to get a reaction from you (which would make it baiting, and then against the CoC). But these people do not care if you respond with a post. In fact, their goal is not to get you to respond, but to get you to leave. And they do it, not by attacking you, but by making the forum feel like a place that is inhospitable and full of venom and anger. Their venom and their anger. In this instance, ignoring them (and the threads in which they post) is exactly what they want. So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
#9 wrecan Aug 08, 2012 10:17:06	In the end, we should not pretend that the Code of Conduct deals with this. It doesn't. We need to be open about it. This is a conscious decision. We are tolerating poisonous substanceless inaccurate criticisms, because we don't want the ORCs to be turned into fact-checkers. We don't want people who have legitimate grievances, substantive suggestions, and constructive criticisms to get swept up in any effort to eliminate those who come here just to rant and drive others away. It's a high price to pay, but there are no good answers here. We tolerate the poison so we can also get the medicine. And that's fine, as much as it pains me. But don't tell the people who complain that there's a workable solution. Don't tell them that ignoring the trolls makes them go away. It does not. Don't tell them that reporting such posts will get actions taken. It won't. These people are not directly violating the Code of Conduct. Reporting the post will not get them infracted, unless their post crosses some other line. In the end, having them on the forum is the necessary unfortunate consequence of having a tolerant policy designed to maximize the range of opinions that can be expressed here.