-What else can be done, by us boards members, asides for flagging individual posts, and reporting individuals to CustHelp? Or, are those our only options, and we're stuck in our situation due to the inability of Customer Service.
-And, if anyone knows...When a person receives either a temporary ban, or a permanent ban, are they made aware of the fact? Do they receive any kind of e-mail stating that their screen name has been given a temporary/permanent ban?
- Don't respond to his posts. Trolls post to get attention and make others mad. When you respond you give him exactly what he wants. Note: Directly calling him a troll is actually a violation of the Code of Conduct itself.
- Hit the report button every time he violates the Code of Conduct. Describe as best you can why it is a violation. As reporting has gotten rid of his posts in the past this seems to be done right.
- For private massages take as snap shot and e-mail it to customer service along with the complaint. PMs are covered by the Code of Conduct as well as the boards. Note: You might want to leave the PM in you box until it is dealt with. That way customer service can verify the PM.
When a person receives either a temporary ban, or a permanent ban, are they made aware of the fact? Do they receive any kind of e-mail stating that their screen name has been given a temporary/permanent ban?
Yes. When they try to log in, they are informed of their ban, and customer service sends them an email. Said email is woefully vague, saying only that you broke the CoC (doesn't specify which part of the CoC, which screenname, which post, which topic, or which forum -- just "you got banninated for breaking the CoC"). Custserv site is also woefully useless and impossible to get a straight answer from, so good luck figuring out why you got warned or banned unless a WizO PMs you about it.
In regards to your persistent troll, I would think that they'd have enough of a file on him now to escalate to harsher bans...?? I do not know WotC policy, but I know the CoC provides for both permabans (based on email addy, I assume) and IP bans (the big guns). I have no idea at what point WotC would use them.
Keep reporting his posts and put him on your ignore list. That really is about all you can do. (Unless custserv is open to bribery...:P)
PM me the name and I'll make sure the problem goes away.
Within the CoC of course. All you have to do is kill their arguments with reason and a heafty dose of sarcasm, and pretty soon they go somewhere else.
Unless you're indirectly referencing me (I do have a confrontational reputation, after all) in which case this thread has got to be the biggest violation of the CoC ever, because it's factually incorrect.
But, I don't think that's the case.
Let me know if I can help.
OK, let's try that again:
PM me the name and I'll make sure the problem goes away.
Within the CoC of course. All you have to do is kill their arguments with reason and a heafty dose of sarcasm, and pretty soon they go somewhere else.
Unless you're indirectly referencing me (I do have a confrontational reputation, after all) in which case this thread has got to be the biggest violation of the CoC ever, because it's factually incorrect.
But, I don't think that's the case.
Let me know if I can help.
Highlight mine.
From my experience, the more you try to kill their arguments, the deeper they dig in. But try it your way.
Bel
PM me the name and I'll make sure the problem goes away.
Within the CoC of course. All you have to do is kill their arguments with reason and a heafty dose of sarcasm, and pretty soon they go somewhere else.
Ahh, no wonder there are so many trolls here!
It might work for someone who's actually serious and not trying to troll, but a real troll loves that kind of response. A real troll doesn't use reasonable arguments in the first place - reasonable arguments don't inspire the same great emotional reactions.
In regards to your persistent troll, I would think that they'd have enough of a file on him now to escalate to harsher bans...?? I do not know WotC policy, but I know the CoC provides for both permabans (based on email addy, I assume) and IP bans (the big guns). I have no idea at what point WotC would use them.
-In the complaints I've filed, I've recommended both, but of course, they cannot discuss punishments with the public.
-But, as I said, this has been ongoing since about January, with 4 permanent bans on the same e-mail/IP account, so...
it's just my 2 coppers, but put the user on ignore.
-Ignoring a problem does not make it go away. I wish it did.
A real troll doesn't use reasonable arguments in the first place ....
I know that. Believe me, I do.
It's not easy, but the trick is to refine criticism of their statements down to as few words as possible, where that criticism always focuses on their underlying credo (that is, the BS assumptions/lies that motivate them to post inflammatory statements) so you can expose their statements for the crap that it is.
Even trolls get sick of their own reflection if you show it to them enough times.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
Consider the Forgotten Realms forums. There’s never a short supply of people who visit them with the express purpose of contributing a bit of their cynicism about WotC, its products and its employees.
Up to a point, that’s all fine and dandy. The forums are good for that sort of venting because we get to see a glimpse of what people’s core values are opposite a long-lived setting like the Realms.
However, it’s very easy for these types of people to pull out the ad-hominem guns and start firing away, especially during the months preceding a rules edition change that also involves sweeping setting changes (such as is the case right now with 4E and the Realms).
Left unchecked, that kind of attitude has allowed the FR Forums (as they stand now) to stagnate into a breeding ground for negative attitudes about what WotC is doing. It has become “cool” to repeat the negative about WotC that others are posting in as many threads as possible.
Consider:
-That said, the 4-Gotten Realms are what I am calling the "new" Realms, as 4-Gotten Realms is much easier to type than 'the "new" Forgotten Realms', and 'the 4e Forgotten Realms'.
A phrase like “4-Gotten Realms” pushes the idea that the 4E Realms are something not of the Realms. But the truth is the The Realms are the Realms are the Realms. But when even FL's don't see it this way, what does that say about what’s going on in the Forums?
Is this the kind of thing WotC wants its Forum Leads to propagate? I don't think it is, but (one of them) is doing it anyway.
Now combating that mindset is virtually impossible. Once something like that sets in, you can’t make it go away. But what can be done is an attempt at refining critical responses to anything that qualifies as ad-hominem-based BS. Write and refine a set of responses for the most frequent attacks that come up and you (theoretically) cut to the core of what these people are saying and so start removing the foundations that undergird their false assumptions.
It’s just really hard to do sometimes, because occasionally people actually believe what they’re putting in their ad-hominem attacks.
It’s just damn hard to figure out which people are the ones that will respond to reason (these are the people you want to keep around because their criticism -take along with others- is the kind of thing WotC needs to read and gather data from on the forums) versus the ones that require the verbal equivalent of a smack to the face coupled with the promise of impending doom if they don’t shut the hell up and start playing nice.
This is why I hope WotC implements a forum split on the FR Forums as rapidly as possible. The negative aspects need to be excised into their “half” of the forums. This will give those of us who enjoy the Realms as a D&D setting first, the opportunity we need to establish and build a welcoming, positive community that is more interested in creativity and sharing ideas about playing Dungeons and Dragons in the Realms than in focusing on negativism and making a game out of spreading it to everyone else that’s on the FR Forums.
Despite my clear objection and disappointment with the current FR Forum VCL's behavior, my thanks do go out to Karsus for trying to make that Forum split happen.
Bottom line: We are all responsible for our own conduct as posters. If we choose to be irresponsible, we effectively turn our back on the community (and vice-versa).
My two coppers
.Real trolls argue because they ether like it or get a kick out of it. These types don't care about logic as long as you keep arguing with them they keep having fun.
Note: Sometimes if the same person argues with you allot all you see is them troll even when they are not. So be care. If a post makes you mad it is best to cool down a bit a read it again then deside. That way you don't get someone in trouble who may just be trying to help.
Note: Sometimes if the same person argues with you allot all you see is them troll even when they are not. So be care. If a post makes you mad it is best to cool down a bit a read it again then deside. That way you don't get someone in trouble who may just be trying to help.
-Heh, would you like to see one of the unsolicited e-mails I received from this particular troll?
-As I said, ignoring the individual does absolutely nothing.
-Heh, would you like to see one of the unsolicited e-mails I received from this particular troll?
-As I said, ignoring the individual does absolutely nothing.
Yeah, but quite honestly, acknowledging him doesn't absoultely nothing either. So, all things being even, ignore him.
Don't get me wrong, I understand your frustration, Lord Karsis ;) but a fight is just as frustrating, if not more so.
Yeah, but quite honestly, acknowledging him doesn't absoultely nothing either.
-Understood. Which is why I started this thread, to see if there were any avenues I haven't tried.
-Understood. Which is why I started this thread, to see if there were any avenues I haven't tried.
If you ignore him, he's utterly harmless. If you acknowledge him however, then you give him something to actually act upon. Don't give him the opportunity, take it away from him. It may make you feel powerless, but in truth, that puts you more in control. It's frustrating, not getting your own licks in, but why waste the effort on such obvious nonsense?
I'd say let the mods handle it, but even if they decide to do nothing however, don't let one poster take away you're enjoyment of these boards. He's not worth it (which I'm sure you realize ;)). Focus on what you enjoy and the troll becomes that much easier to ignore.
Who is this guy, Karsus? Let me deal with him.
Holy crap, now I know it's not me.
-No one ever said that you were. You clearly don't meet the criteria mentioned in the first post...Unless, there is something I don't know about. A hidden past...?
Who is this guy, Karsus? Let me deal with him.
-As was said, ignoring is best. I'll send you a PM, so that you can "watch out" for said person. I think I might send on to everyone over at the FR section.
How many emails have they sent? The order thing only works as I know in person. I don't know that it covers emails and they might have problems if they live in different states. I would still keep track of them just in case.
-Heh, would you like to see one of the unsolicited e-mails I received from this particular troll?
-As I said, ignoring the individual does absolutely nothing.
That was just a general comment about most trolls. I wasn't meaning you case specifically.
Note: Their are a few on the boards that are just mean for meaness sake. They think that if they make some mad/sad/feel stupid enough that they will win the argument. Like it is some contest. I don't refer to these as trolls my self. Don't really know what to call them. These are the types that need some real sit down time.
-Heh, would you like to see one of the unsolicited e-mails I received from this particular troll?
-As I said, ignoring the individual does absolutely nothing.
You need to take a screenshot of the PM, save it as a .jpg, and fill out a ticket through the "Contact us" link at the bottom of the page.
You need to take a screenshot of the PM, save it as a .jpg, and fill out a ticket through the "Contact us" link at the bottom of the page.
-Been there, done that. No response yet, though I doubt it will be a meaningful one.
We can ignore the troll by not responding but we can't (or shouldn't) use the forum software to blind ourselves to their posts.
Yup. IIRC, one of the restrictions that G0 put on FLs/VCLs is that we are not allowed to use the software ignore function.
I don't recall that. But then again, I'm old and suffer bouts of "memory selectivity."
I do know that many years ago, when we converted from uBB to vB, GMs were asked not to ignore anybody, because we couldn't guarantee that the person we ignored would stay away from our forums. So, really, the same basic principle does apply.
There isn't a rule against things like
- Arguing for the sake of arguing
- Saying dumb crap
- Repeating that dumb crap in EVERY post you make
- Not having anything worthwile to contribute in any post you make
So most trolls are going to get to keep trolling forever.
And "just don't respond to them" won't work, because SOMEONE will always respond to them.
Personally I think things would be better if people could be banned for just generally "being a burden to the community" at the Admins' discretion.
IP bans should be considered and used actually in irresolvable cases?
I do believe they do that, it's just that it isn't overly hard to circumvent them. For one thing, most ISPs now use DHCP, so the IP of a specific user can change over time. The other problem is that it isn't hard to use "alternate means" to change IP addresses, either. The really pesky trolls know those workarounds and use them, so what will ultimately have to happen is harassment injunctions.
IP bans should be considered and used actually in irresolvable cases?
-Agreed, although, as has been said, it is possible to circumnavigate that. A ban on one's e-mail address should also be considered. Does anyone know if this is done, banning the e-mail address. Sure, someone can easily input a new e-mail address, but...
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php
-Ah, the irony.
:embarrass
IP bans should be considered and used actually in irresolvable cases?
However, IP bans are the least useful thing to do. Between dynamic IP from the ISP and proxies, there are quite some ways with which you can get around an IP ban.
Additionally, IP bans have the disadvantage that they might hit the wrong person. Although I admit, the chance of that happening is very low - but still there.
Therefore I'd suggest something else. Perhaps SSL with client certificates would a way to go.
Here is the thing about Trolls. Most of them (the good ones anyway) don't actually violate the CoC.
There isn't a rule against things like
- Arguing for the sake of arguing
- Saying dumb crap
- Repeating that dumb crap in EVERY post you make
- Not having anything worthwile to contribute in any post you make
Actually, IMO (and I am not a WizO nor do I speak for WotC), repeatedly doing that could be considered deliberately disrupting the forums and interfering with the attempt by other people to use the forums.
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php
Thus the dreaded Troll Healing kicks in and the process repeats itself.
If the troll is reduced to 0 hit points by an attack that does not deal acid or fire damage, it rises on its next turn (as a move action) with 10 hit points.
Sorry I had to