One very well known troll even revels in the fact that they keep letting him back on the boards by posting regularly he is who we think he is, or at the very least alluding to it in the more blatant of ways. He laughs in the face of moderation on these boards, and of the reasonable posters who frequent them.. but still they won't do anything about it..
In short.. i don't think a thread like this will ever really achieve anything.. they never do.
It's true that that doesn't really solve the problem, but it might make your own experience better.
The best you can hope for is that a specific post of theirs will be edited. The polciy here is a joke and a wet, sloppy kiss to trolls.
Oh we know Vaal... we know.
I have to remind myself that I don't come here for the trolls. This is a very active D&D community and I really enjoy that. There's so much creativity and originallity here; it would be a shame to let it be diminished by a few trolls. It's what keeps me coming back; I refuse to let the trolls declare "victory!".
I have a very straight-forward approach to trolls that works for me. I try to be open-minded enough to listen to any thought or opinion. The second you troll me or attack me however, I'm through with you.
I've learned to be a completely selfish jerk when it comes to trolls; in essence, I acknowledge my anger, not the troll. You gotta care about somebody before you care what they so or do. I'm too mad right now to give a damn about you. "Have a nice day!" is the best I can offer; take it or leave it, I'm through.
Moderation is for wussies, take control of your own reactions. Be a real jerk but be completely selfish about it. Then, the trolls don't matter so much.
The acceptance of (some very well-known) trolls by both the mods and the members sometimes strains my tolerance to the breaking point. I literally have to walk away for a few days before I'm comfortable browsing and posting again.
I have to remind myself that I don't come here for the trolls. This is a very active D&D community and I really enjoy that. There's so much creativity and originallity here; it would be a shame to let it be diminished by a few trolls. It's what keeps me coming back; I refuse to let the trolls declare "victory!".
I have a very straight-forward approach to trolls that works for me. I try to be open-minded enough to listen to any thought or opinion. The second you troll me or attack me however, I'm through with you.
I've learned to be a completely selfish jerk when it comes to trolls; in essence, I acknowledge my anger, not the troll. You gotta care about somebody before you care what they so or do. I'm too mad right now to give a damn about you. "Have a nice day!" is the best I can offer; take it or leave it, I'm through.
Moderation is for wussies, take control of your own reactions. Be a real jerk but be completely selfish about it. Then, the trolls don't matter so much.
This guy has a good idea too. Just leaving the forum for a few days and taking a break can be a huge stress reliever. While I might not share his sentiments on the state of the forums, I can at least appreciate that he is willing to step aside and let people continue posting as normal.
It's just text from anonymous Internet users. It's pathetically easy to ignore and it doesn't have any real bearing on your life. You should not let it have this kind of effect on you. If you're becoming angered and upset by a troll then you are letting the troll declare victory, because that's exactly what they're trying to accomplish.
Take a deep breath, chill out and learn to see the funny side.
18DELTA
Or just STOP GETTING ANGRY. It's really not as hard as you people are making it out to be.
It's just text from anonymous Internet users. It's pathetically easy to ignore and it doesn't have any real bearing on your life. You should not let it have this kind of effect on you. If you're becoming angered and upset by a troll then you are letting the troll declare victory, because that's exactly what they're trying to accomplish.
Take a deep breath, chill out and learn to see the funny side.
Except we aren't all soulless machines like you, Wight. :P We come to the Boards to put something INto DnD, whether into the community or just to share our thoughts and ideas. We don't come here for our AMUSEMENT. The Trolls, on the other hand, seem to come here for no reason BUT to find amusement. So excuse us if we take it like a slap in the face. "Turn the other cheek," a good man said. Unfortunately, I only have two of those, and there are far more than two instances of asshattery from people who are only here for a quick laugh at others' ideas for me to continue "turning the other cheek" anymore. People need to be dealt with, or they need to leave. Just letting them continue will only make it more acceptable for MORE people to act like them, and that won't get us anywhere.
Except we aren't all soulless machines like you, Wight. :P We come to the Boards to put something INto DnD, whether into the community or just to share our thoughts and ideas. We don't come here for our AMUSEMENT. The Trolls, on the other hand, seem to come here for no reason BUT to find amusement. So excuse us if we take it like a slap in the face. "Turn the other cheek," a good man said. Unfortunately, I only have two of those, and there are far more than two instances of asshattery from people who are only here for a quick laugh at others' ideas for me to continue "turning the other cheek" anymore. People need to be dealt with, or they need to leave. Just letting them continue will only make it more acceptable for MORE people to act like them, and that won't get us anywhere.
Why are you writing in plural?
n00bs WILL be flamed!
Preemptively attacking new forum members. Interesting mind set. Unless I misread your statement.
Why are you speaking in plural?
Because the majority of posters on this Thread alone have, as per the norm, felt EMOTION. I'm sorry you and Wight can't, but seriously, don't expect anyone else to remain aloof when someone smacks them in the face with utter lies and insults them for simply disagreeing with something. I have no IDEA why you think most people remain calm and ignore anger. It just makes no sense whatsoever.
Preemptively attacking new forum members. Interesting mind set. Unless I misread your statement.
A "Newbie" is someone who is new. A n00b is an idiot who refuses to learn, and constantly insults others for putting for the effort to do so.
Except we aren't all soulless machines like you, Wight. :P We come to the Boards to put something INto DnD, whether into the community or just to share our thoughts and ideas. We don't come here for our AMUSEMENT. The Trolls, on the other hand, seem to come here for no reason BUT to find amusement. So excuse us if we take it like a slap in the face. "Turn the other cheek," a good man said. Unfortunately, I only have two of those, and there are far more than two instances of asshattery from people who are only here for a quick laugh at others' ideas for me to continue "turning the other cheek" anymore. People need to be dealt with, or they need to leave. Just letting them continue will only make it more acceptable for MORE people to act like them, and that won't get us anywhere.
No, when you turn the other cheek each time, you alternate and with a good enough regeneration rate, you can take all the damage by spreading it around. Also, remaining calm and ignoring those bad people who only come to stir up trouble and get a high out of the suffering of others and whose very presence on the forums is in itself a form of trolling can make them bored and make them go away. I have yet to meet anyone who would stay on a forum after being ignored just to spread lies. Such a person would have to have no life and be simply dedicated to doing those things which could not be fun at all.
No, when you turn the other cheek each time, you alternate and with a good enough regeneration rate, you can take all the damage by spreading it around. Also, remaining calm and ignoring those bad people who only come to stir up trouble and get a high out of the suffering of others and whose very presence on the forums is in itself a form of trolling can make them bored and make them go away. I have yet to meet anyone who would stay on a forum after being ignored just to spread lies. Such a person would have to have no life and be simply dedicated to doing those things which could not be fun at all.
I'd say you seem to be having fun with it, but you actually entertain me, and usually express your (honestly misguided) ideals in a very polite manner, so I think I'll just say that I liked your answer to the cheek problem. :D That's a good one.
Because the majority of posters on this Thread alone have, as per the norm, felt EMOTION. I'm sorry you and Wight can't, but seriously, don't expect anyone else to remain aloof when someone smacks them in the face with utter lies and insults them for simply disagreeing with something. I have no IDEA why you think most people remain calm and ignore anger. It just makes no sense whatsoever.
Calling everyone who isn't hormonal and emotionally out of control an emotion-less robot doesn't help your argument.
That little "majority," the existence of which you've been claiming, consists of pregnant women and teenagers. In other words, bat**** crazy. The majority in this thread want trolls off the forum. They've said nothing about breaking down in tears or losing their cool at any point.
Calling everyone who isn't hormonal and emotionally out of control an emotion-less robot doesn't help your argument. That's just plain intellectual dishonesty and self-deception.
That little "majority," the existence of which you've been claiming, consists of pregnant women and teenagers (and you, apparently) In other words, batshit crazy. The majority in this thread want trolls off the forum. They've said nothing about breaking down in tears or losing their cool at any point.
And neither have I. Seriously, exaggerate much?
And neither have I. Seriously, exaggerate much?
You may not realize it, but the portrait you paint of your imagined nation of posters is that of an emotionally fragile, uncontrollable and deeply disturbed people. As in, Angry-Mob-in-the-Dark-Ages people. Those people are a minority, and rightfully so.
I've been having a much better time at Enworld.org. They have moderators that aren't afraid to use their power and keep things civil.
I've been having a much better time at Enworld.org. They have moderators that aren't afraid to use their power and keep things civil.
Agreed. And that's why all the trolls tend to congregate here. We're the low-hanging fruit.
First, this thread and its previous incarnations are just a pressure safety valve: they're gonna let it go so everyone can get it out of their system, then they'll close it when those who are its topic turn it into an "apology of behavior that would get people punched in the teeth if they were face to face". Then pressure will start building again and in 2-3 weeks you'll see another thread just like this one. Cynical, but it seems to work.
Second, the moderation here is lax because WotC is terrified of putting off actual or potential customers by taking action, even justified, against trolls, jerks and just plain rude people. These anti-social types buy books. WotC figures that the people who deplore the unfriendly state of their forums won't stop buying D&D stuff just because of it, but unreasonable people who feel wronged by the moderators might. Nothing to gain vs. something to loose: it's a rational choice.
For my part, I've given up on this. I use the ignore list. I report. I don't care about what I've reported once it's done. I'm zen (mostly).
At least, if I was to indulge in rudeness just because I thought it was a "cool" style of discourse, or if I was to snap back a someone doing that, then there'd be no consequences at all.
Second, the moderation here is lax because WotC is terrified of putting off real or potential customers by taking action, even justified, against trolls, jerks and just plain rude people. These anti-social types buy books. WotC figures that the people who deplore the unfriendly state of their forums won't stop buying D&D stuff just because of it, but unreasonable people who feel wronged by the moderators might. Nothing to gain vs. something to loose: it's a rational choice.
How 'bout we have to give WotC our credit card# in order to post. Every time someone does something ban worthy, WotC makes a purchase for the offender?
Win, win?
How 'bout we have to give WotC our credit card# in order to post. Every time someone does something ban worthy, WotC makes a purchase for the offender?
Win, win?
HEHE. More like "FTW!"
And though trolls might be annoying as heck, I don't think that they're not able to change. Seriously. It just takes patience and people who can handle trolls to point out exactly how they're affecting people, and how they wouldn't want that to happen to themselves, to change them. Flaming trolls just perpetuates the spiral of negativity, so to speak. But stopping or even reversing the spiral is difficult, that's a given.
Don't regard this as a pro-troll post, though. I merely wanted to say that once they see the wrongs they have done, they might turn around. And before you say it can't be done, please think about what you've done that you've regretted, and how you've become a better person/poster because of it.
Second, the moderation here is lax because WotC is terrified of putting off real or potential customers by taking action, even justified, against trolls, jerks and just plain rude people.
Mostly because WotC apparently doesn't pay much attention to how every other major corporate forum is run in favor of playing pattycake.
Seriously, the only forums run in this way [All moderation behind the scenes, only incredibly light temp bans] are run by teenagers bitter about being banned elsewhere for good reason.
Mostly because WotC apparently doesn't pay much attention to how every other major corporate forum is run in favor of playing pattycake.
Hey, maybe in their mind, there is no other major corporate forum. There certainly ain't one covering D&D. Given their absolute lack of willingness to discuss or even acknowledge the issue, I can only assume they have enough hubris to think that no matter how aberrant and unique their moderation policy is, it's everyone else doing it wrong, not them.
The way they see it, they sell stuff to reasonable people and to socially inept idiots. As long as the reasonable customers are not driven away from buying stuff by the online presence of the socially inept idiots, what could they possibly gain by doing anything that might set off the socially inept idiots?
Well, venting felt good. Vaal, I'll see you in the next What should moderation do about trolls/jerks/louts thread, 2-3 weeks from now.
Take care,
Can I get advanced tickets, Sebby? I sometimes forget to attend, and it would be nice to have a reminder.
Hey, maybe we could ask Webs to sticky the thread, and unlock it for one week every month. This way we could subscribe
.It'd be like group therapy or some such crap.
18DELTA
If you're tired of the posting habits of someone, put them on your ignore list, and then ignore them.
It's true that that doesn't really solve the problem, but it might make your own experience better.
This is probably the best answer. The worst behavior on these forums tends to have a large attention-seeking motivational component. Adding them to the ignore list means you are feeding the flames by try to counter their idiocy. If the trolls are getting their attention/arguments, trolling begins to not serve its purpose for them.
While I may have a few posters I tend to bump heads with, most have remained reasonably civil but, on a few cases I have added them to my ignore list and my forum experienced improved on my end. I occasionally clear my list and have yet to add someone back to it so, I guess the worse offenders eventually burnout.
), so when I read through all the needless sarcasm, backhanded compliments, or "subtle" personal attacks, it really begins to build up aggravation. Hell, I even do martial arts three times a week, which releases a lot of stress, and I still get angry at how inhumane many posters are. I begin to think I call people out on things because I simply wish the Community at large would make an example of one, just one single person, and that it would actually convince other people that they really need to stop being such horrible people. But nonetheless, an excellent link, and maybe I'll remind myself to read it every few days or so. Thanks. 
@Sebby: That would just be funny. :D
Except we aren't all soulless machines like you, Wight. :P
Firstly, a wight is an undead creature, not a construct.
Secondly, I am not emotionally dead as you seem to suggest. There's a big difference between having no emotions whatsoever and being able to shrug it off when someone's rude to you. One is desirable; the other is not. Guess which one's which?
Getting upset does nothing but, surprise surprise, make you upset. It accomplishes nothing else. So why do it? What's the point? Do you think that if you get angry enough the trolls are suddenly going to disappear? Just distance yourself from the text and stop taking it to heart.
You don't have to be a robot to do that.
the censorship here is huge
are you sure your talking about the same forums as everybody else? or was that sarcasm?
I've only made a handful of posts here thus far. I started one thread int he DDI forums asking almost the same question, in almost the same mindset.
I was attacked in the first response and the third response to my topic. I PM'd mudbunny until he/she/it was probably sick of me and turned me over to Solice. In between here and there I finally figured out a couple issues I was having with wotc and gleemax accounts and such and was finally able to send management an email or 5. Then I continued to report the offenders, the same post multiple times, until an ORC finally showed up and removed one post and edited the others.
You harass them enough and the Staff will eventually take action. But dealing with the trolls in between A and Z will drive you bonkers. You can't ignore everyone, that'd be silly, and dealing with some of these adolescents is nerve wracking
But enough of my whining... I only pay for the product I'm trying to use.
FD
((Edited for horrendous spelling :P ))
Firstly, a wight is an undead creature, not a construct.
Secondly, I am not emotionally dead as you seem to suggest. There's a big difference between having no emotions whatsoever and being able to shrug it off when someone's rude to you. One is desirable; the other is not. Guess which one's which?
Getting upset does nothing but, surprise surprise, make you upset. It accomplishes nothing else. So why do it? What's the point? Do you think that if you get angry enough the trolls are suddenly going to disappear? Just distance yourself from the text and stop taking it to heart.
You don't have to be a robot to do that.
Heh. I was just using your name, not making any comparisons. Do you just shrug it off when you get stabbed, too? I mean, as usual, I'm using an extreme example, but the point remains: when something happens to you that is outside of your control, your body and mind usually react to it, one way or another. Personally, I find it easier to distance the pain of a stab wound (though I have an unfair advantage) than to just overlook people trouncing on something I'm putting effort into. I'm a lazy bastard, so when I actually put effort into something, it's extremely insulting to just have poo flung at me for absolutely no reason whatsoever. And actually, getting angry usually also bypasses my Humanity Guilt, which is the guilt I feel whenever I think of harming another human being. So, no, getting angry is actually AWESOME for me.
As for the two posters above: So, we're actually TRYING to come up with some solutions, or figure out a way to actually DEAL with these people better, and WE'RE the whiners?? I think Zammm's link alone is a fairly good use of this Thread. If you don't have anything productive to say, you know where the door is. ',: |
First and foremost, flaming a flamer or a troll is flaming itself, pure and simple. There is no such thing as "justified flaming". This is a message board about a game on the internet; it's pretty much the definition of "Not Serious Business". Thus, the moderators will treat negative responses to flaming or trolling pretty much exactly the same as they will treat the original offense. "Two wrongs don't make a right" definitely applies here.
Second, attacking a troll or flamer encourages others to do so as well, thanks to the bandwagon effect; people think "If those other people are doing it, it must be okay." This is particularly apparent when the people responding with flaming are prominent community members; others join in and flame the original person being flamed as well...and then they start doing the same to anyone else they think is similarly "worthy" of being flamed. And since there's always someone with a negative opinion of anyone, it continues spreading and the threshold for what is "flameworthy" drops lower and lower. If not stopped, this problem will compound itself until the entire forum is one giant flamefest.
Third, attacking another accomplishes worse than nothing. The troll/flamer is not discouraged, and you've sunk down to their level. Your reputation is tainted with flaming and you've lost any hope of retaining the moral high ground. If you do it on a regular basis, you become known as a flamer yourself. By flaming the flamers, you become one yourself.
Fourth, attacking a true troll or flamer only encourages them and inspires them to new heights of offensiveness. They've received just the reaction they were hoping for, so why would they stop? You've taken the bait, and they're sitting there laughing at you for being dumb enough to do it. So they'll do it again to see if they can get you again. And again, and again. As long as you continue reacting, they'll continue trolling and flaming, laughing at you all the way. (You know the happy reaction you get when the strength of your arguments in a debate decimate your opponent's position and reduce him to such a degree that his only refuge is in flaming? Trolls and flamers feel that all the time about the people they manage to bait.)
And fifth, getting into the habit of attacking those you see as trolls can, does, and will eventually mean you will attack people who intended no provocation whatsoever, who were intending to ask what they thought was an honest question or make what they thought was a legitimate comment. And when (not if) you do, you have become the source of the problem.
Personally, the most irritating problem I routinely encounter is people responding to a specific question for an original poster with a tangentially related response, or one contrary to the request of the original poster.
(Made-up Example:
Original Post: "I'm interested in finding a god for my cleric. (I don't want to play a non-theistic "philosophy cleric" or anything -- I want a god, but I just want one that fits my concept.) My cleric believes in something akin to Epicureanism or Benthamite Utilitarianism -- he basically believes that life should be as pleasurable as possible for all sentient life in the world. He's personally a moderate hedonist (likes fine food and drink, sex, comfy lodgings, etc) and also generally wants everyone else to experience as much pleasure and as little pain as possible too. Anyway, any gods who might be aligned with this concept? Homebrew, old sources, and some others might be acceptable."
Response: "Just play a warlord who believes all that stuff.")
However, I wouldn't consider that trolling, flaming, or even necessarily rudeness. I'm sure that I've given a few such unhelpful responses on occasion, although I try to be aware and avoid that. Maybe I'm just fortunate in not encountering too much trolling.
Yes, but Zammm, none of that makes the Mods do more for the Community, nor does it make me feel any better! In fact, it just makes me angrier. And I begin to think simply "ignoring" that anger (and it isn't, really; you're actually just bottling it up, not getting rid of it)...
Bottling up your anger is getting angry but not doing anything about it, and you're right that that's not healthy. What you need to do is simply not get angry in the first place.
For example, I've had people flame the heck out of me--they've called me a wide array of names that cannot be mentioned in polite company, questioned my ancestry, made pointed remarks about my sexual tastes and orientation, accused me of incest, ****, and bestiality, and threatened my home, my possessions, and my life.
So what did I do? I laughed until my sides split, then showed it to friends so they could have a good chuckle too. Because really, it's words on the internet--who would seriously believe that I'd actually take offense at such a pile of hot air? Coming from someone I've never met and who has never met me, no less?
In your own words, they're "lowbrow introverts who have nothing better to do with their time than start flame wars on something included in the category of 'Not Serious Business.'" Why on earth should you bother to take such pathetic people seriously enough to get angry at them?
The problem is people who stubbornly refuse to view any position other than their own, and then start "subtly" insulting or demeaning you, simply for disagreeing with them. I mean, maybe it really is just me, and it's just a pet peeve or something, but people who think they are just so much more "correct" than me at all times, despite evidence or common sense pointing to the contrary, are simply aggravating. When you try to argue with them, they fight back with ignorance or a closed mind, which will never lead to a constructive or intelligent solution to any problem in the first place, and if you ignore them, they simply claim they've "won." Worst of all is that most of them seem to think I cannot discern their tone or see through their "clever retorts" to the petty, self-indulgent core of their "argument," simply because they're not actually speaking to me. Unfortunately, knowing human psychology quite well, I know exactly what they are trying to come across as, and (as you so eloquently pointed out) calling them on it is more likely to get ME banned than accomplish anything productive.
This is just a strain on my psyche that I don't really need. I've managed to report and ignore most of the worst cases, but sometimes it gets the best of me, and I even once called a poster out on an imbecilic comment, straight to his face calling him a Fool. Had I not been Temp-Banned for such an open assault (and the post removed, of course), I had an argument ready that he was obviously an intelligent person, and was denying the reality of the situation simply to exacerbate me, meaning he must think it was funny to dance about the Court like the Royal Jester AKA The King's Fool. But as I said, this is a silly thing to do in the end, because yes, the Mods refuse to read anything into people's posts, and instead only respond to blatant offenses. Again, though, as I said before, maybe it's just me. I wouldn't be TOO surprised, but I guess I'd just have to relegate myself more often than not.
Do you just shrug it off when you get stabbed, too?
No, because that's an extremely serious issue that most definitely does have an immediate bearing on my life.
Would you say the same thing about anonymously written text on a D&D forum? While it would be an incredibly nifty ability to be able to cause someone actual physical harm by getting them to read your words, do you think anyone's likely to be able to do it?
I mean, as usual, I'm using an extreme example
No, you're using an erroneous example. Getting stabbed suddenly (assuming it's by a hostile individual rather than just you having an accident with a knife) is going to cause a massive surge of adrenaline; there's nothing one can do about that.
I am not, however, inclined to believe that most people have their "fight or flight" response triggered by text on the Internet. How they deal with something like that is up to them. They can dwell on it and become upset, or they can shrug and move on.
And for some twisted reason, some people prefer to do the former.
So, no, getting angry is actually AWESOME for me.
OK, great. So if you enjoy getting angry so much, surely more trolls would be the thing.
Again, it's not as difficult to relax and take it in your stride as you're making it be, and you do not have to be a "soulless machine" to do it. Unless you think Bobby McFerrin was encouraging humanity to shed their emotions entirely and become beings of pure logic when he wrote "Don't Worry, Be Happy."
When you try to argue with them, they fight back with ignorance or a closed mind, which will never lead to a constructive or intelligent solution to any problem in the first place, and if you ignore them, they simply claim they've "won."
Who cares if they think they've won? If you're worried that their claim to victory will go unchallenged, simply state courteously that you can see the argument isn't going to go anywhere so you're not going to continue being a part of it. But as long as you know the truth, and as long as you're confident enough in your arguments that you know that others will be able to see the same, does it really matter what your opponent thinks?
DO NOT SPEAK ILL OF SOUTH PARK
Given how entertaining it is, that's a compliment, not an insult.
While it would be an incredibly nifty ability to be able to cause someone actual physical harm by getting them to read your words, do you think anyone's likely to be able to do it?
Six words: I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. :P
]A while back I started a thread called [thread=1046960]4th Edition Motivators[/thread] (that's the right link, it was deleted). It was well received and quite of bit of fun.However after about 6 pages one disruptive poster showed up, derailed the thread. because of one poster the thread was locked. Another thread was started on the same subject and the same poster managed to derail and get the other thread locked in the same manner.
They later showed up with a sock puppet account and openly stated who they where. They also came back some 40 minutes after being banned again and stated such on on the linked threads below.
As it is a negative poster has the ability to lock any thread they want if they are careful and do not care about what happens to their account. After all they can just create a new one.
Here are the threads on that topic from way back when.
[thread=1051340]how/why do the motivator threads keep getting locked?[/thread]
[thread=1050989]State of the General Discussion forum[/thread]
[/
]I don't see how having a rational discussion asking if there is anything that forum members can do to improve the tone of the forum is counterproductive in any way.
Also, it isn't even necessarily people that make personal attacks on me that bother me. I also have seen trolls spreading deliberate misinformation like "you can't play a warlock in 4e, they took that class out". (I lost the link to the thread when my old computer died
) Also when half of the threads on the first page of 4e GD were titled something along the lines of "4e sucks" it wasn't exactly inviting to new players who wanted to come and ask questions.*Note* I am not saying that the forums should be an echo chamber. But there is a big difference between "I don't like the gamist aspects of 4e because..." and "4e is stupid, the only people who can stand to play it have IQs under 75".
As calronmoonflower brought up it really sucks when trolls come in and close a thread that had a perfectly reasonable and informative discussion going on up until they joined. In that case the trolls are performing their own brand of censorship by closing threads intentionally.
Thus, the moderators will treat negative responses to flaming or trolling pretty much exactly the same as they will treat the original offense.
Cool! So, if I respond negatively to flaming or trolling nothing will happen to me?
See what we're saying here?
They actually treat it more harshly if you actually watch the threads. Trolls, if they're even acknowledged, are quietly deleted. Responses to trolls get edited with an admonishment in the edit line and a drive-by 'let's all hug' message from a mod.
This is the worst of it. They get away with it, and we get punished. What kind of moderation is that!?
This is the worst of it. They get away with it, and we get punished. What kind of moderation is that!?
Unfortunately, it's moderation enforced to the letter. The trolls are careful not to breach the CoC and rely on their history to further agitate normally upstanding members. These members then get infuriated and break the CoC themselves - so they get modded. It sucks, but until we put the flamethrowers away and put on our ignore hats, this is what will happen. And it's exactly what the trolls want.
People see a familiar avatar and posting style and lose it. Effectively it's baiting, but it is not baiting insofar as the way the moderation looks at it. Since it's policy to never make mention of banned names or accounts, the puppets have to be seen as a truly separate entity from the original account they used. With enough infamy, they are able to bait others into breaking the CoC through their mere presence alone. This, of course, is baiting that is not even allowed to be recognized as such due to the stipulation that banned accounts/names cannot be associated with new ones. We know who they are. The mods know who they are. But we cannot report them and the mods are not allowed to acknowledge that they do know who they are. Consider it a sort of 5th Amendment for trolls. Without a change in that policy, our only recourse is simply ignoring the trolls or - at the very least - remaining as calm as possible when responding to those that bait simply by being who they are. There is nothing more we can do because of the way the system is set up.
There is nothing more we can do because of the way the system is set up.
Which is why the system needs changing. I think things have improved, but there's more to be done. Until then, just use the report button. If you can't control your own reactions, use the ignore feature.
But we cannot report them and the mods are not allowed to acknowledge that they do know who they are.
I actually have taken to reporting the (obvious) repeat offender(s? Are there more than one?), whenever a post appears to possibly be in violation of the CoC, along with a prepared statement emphasizing the fact that the repeat posting under different screen names, many of which have been banned, temp banned, or at least repeatedly warned in the past, is a flagrant act of baiting in-and-of itself, and encouraging the moderators to consider the apparent violation in light of a long and storied history, including aggregating offenses over known accounts.
I wound up actually having a prepared statement that I can copy/paste into any reports for said offender(s?), to go along with my regular (semi-detailed) descriptions of the apparent violation.
It... honestly appears to be working.
They actually treat it more harshly if you actually watch the threads. Trolls, if they're even acknowledged, are quietly deleted. Responses to trolls get edited with an admonishment in the edit line and a drive-by 'let's all hug' message from a mod.
Grah. It's the drive-by 'let's all hug' messages I hate the most.
Grah. It's the drive-by 'let's all hug' messages I hate the most.
Perhaps not "the most," but I hate them as well.
They often give the impression of "we're not really going to do anything, but play nice kids."
The harder-nosed moderation notes always come off as more serious and/or respectful.
Which is why the system needs changing. I think things have improved, but there's more to be done. Until then, just use the report button. If you can't control your own reactions, use the ignore feature.
I agree completely. I hope my explanation didn't come off as me condoning the system as-is and those that choose to exploit it. It needs to be changed so that these obvious loopholes are closed. Other than that, it's like you say - report when possible or ignore.
I actually have taken to reporting the (obvious) repeat offender(s? Are there more than one?), whenever a post appears to possibly be in violation of the CoC, along with a prepared statement emphasizing the fact that the repeat posting under different screen names, many of which have been banned, temp banned, or at least repeatedly warned in the past, is a flagrant act of baiting in-and-of itself, and encouraging the moderators to consider the apparent violation in light of a long and storied history, including aggregating offenses over known accounts.
I wound up actually having a prepared statement that I can copy/paste into any reports for said offender(s?), to go along with my regular (semi-detailed) descriptions of the apparent violation.
It... honestly appears to be working.
I know that at one point there were two. One seems to have gotten bored with this place and I haven't seen anything from him or his puppets in some time. Unless the perma-ban for fetus pics actually took, that is. I also wanted to keep my post as general as possible to protect myself. ;) Too bad I broke that process here!
If your system is working, that's great. Things still need to be changed policy-wise, of course, but any victory - no matter how small - is still a victory. Maybe PM your system to people that may want it? I'm sure some would like a simple copy/paste message detailing the nefarious exploits of the worst offenders.
This is the worst of it. They get away with it, and we get punished. What kind of moderation is that!?
QFT.
The current worst punishment available is deletion of an account. This is only a punishment if you care about your account. Since trolls are here explicitly to generate a negative reputation, getting banned and being forced to make a new login name is actually *helpful* to trolls. It allows them to send the message that moderation doesn't work. All they have to do is not post abortion pics and they are fine.
For people who care about their accounts, the punishment is meaningful. Congrats- someone found a way to get good behavior out of basically reasonable people. Was that ever the problem?
Part of that is done by removing accounts and generally making it a nuisance for a troll to sign back up again, but that doesn't work if coming back to annoy people again provides the troll with enough amusement that they feel it is worth their time and effort. For it to work, you need to ensure that the troll doesn't get a satisfactory response, that they don't get what they're looking for. If you do, they will then move on to better fishing grounds and leave you alone.
It... honestly appears to be working.
Good job.
The moderators, frankly, are not going to spend the extra time and effort to check the IPs of every single person who gets reported--looking through a ton of IP addresses is a very time-consuming process, and there's generally no reason to do it.
Thus, the only way they will know that a user is a returning troll is if you take the time to tell them that it is in your reports. Outline who you think they are and why you think that; provide links as much as possible.
That way, the ORC will know going into things that the user is suspected as an MUP, will know to check for that, and can put a note on the account to that effect for future reference. This will get them dealt with more efficiently than if each account is treated separately.
Hell, I even do martial arts three times a week, which releases a lot of stress,
You should do what I do, find a dojo that doesn't invest in how many sessions you're there, and be there whenever it's open, or get on the sensei's good side, get a key, and be there a lot.
Now, there is a downside, my harmony and zen where hard to find when this 7foot 250lb green belt was sparring, not with me, but with my jaw. Me, a little 5'10" average Joe, didn't think I'd need to invest in a mouth guard.
Three chipped teeth and about half an hour of trying not to scream like a pansy later, I found my cool...in sucking on a folded up papertowel.
Of course, the normal everyday bruises are ignorable, even if I do look like a domestic abuse case.
So, moral of the story, even when you're not in the dojo, and some buttcrack is trying to get on your bad side, ignore it...or find them and kill them...but I don't advise that. Skip over their post, thread, ignore them, or whatever. They can only go for so long before every username is taken up, has now been ignored, and they'll move on.
...At night, my chipped teeth still cry out in pain at the big lug's ever encroaching right hook.
Deletion of an account is not just "the current" worst punishment, it's the worst punishment they can possibly create that does not negatively impact other users.
You can investigate and ban people who evidence that they have previously been banned.
You can IP Ban.
As far as I know, the former is never done, and the latter has been done only once ever.
And not banning a troll also negatively impacts other users.
There is no way to stop a truly determined troll from rejoining the forum under a different name and coming back for more.
But there are different levels of difficulty. An aggressive inquisitive moderation who investigates allegations of sockpuppetry is one. IP ban is another level.
Part of that is done by removing accounts and generally making it a nuisance for a troll to sign back up again, but that doesn't work if coming back to annoy people again provides the troll with enough amusement that they feel it is worth their time and effort.
Yes, it does. Because there are other low-hanging fruit. Right now, the Wizards forums are the low-hanging fruit amongst the RPG-related boards. A more aggressive moderation approach would make some other board the low-hanging fruit and then the trolls would tend to go there.
The trolls don't want to troll this specific forum. Most of them don't care where they get their negative reinforcement. If they can get it easier at EnWorld, that's where they'll go. If they can get it at RPG-Net, they'll go there. Simply out, they will go where they can get the most reaction with the least effort. So the goal should be to make the effort greater. Right now, the place to go if you want to be asinine to role-players is this forum.
The moderators, frankly, are not going to spend the extra time and effort to check the IPs of every single person who gets reported
But they should be willing to check the IPs when someone is accused of being a sockpuppet of someone else. Right now, they're not willign even to do that, unless something is changed, in which case an announcement should be made, because I could compile a list of sockpuppets.
That way, the ORC will know going into things that the user is suspected as an MUP, will know to check for that, and can put a note on the account to that effect for future reference. This will get them dealt with more efficiently than if each account is treated separately.
If they're a sockpuppet, why wait? They've already abused the privilege of being in this forum once. Don't reward the chutzpah of creating a sockpuppet.
Also, on the topic and without revealing any specifics, we do keep track of the sockpuppets are and sockpuppets of formerly banned accounts are not given a clean slate. However, it can be helpful if you provide context and posting history in your reports to us so that we can better deal with the issues.
Who cares if they think they've won? If you're worried that their claim to victory will go unchallenged, simply state courteously that you can see the argument isn't going to go anywhere so you're not going to continue being a part of it. But as long as you know the truth, and as long as you're confident enough in your arguments that you know that others will be able to see the same, does it really matter what your opponent thinks?
When one stupid person says something, I laugh at him. When his 20 stupid buddies show up and they all decide to have a parade celebrating and spreading their own misinformation, I prepare heavy weaponry.
People are sheep, and when they have no strong feelings about something, they tend to trust the first thing they hear as long as it's couched in even remotely plausible terms, no matter how opinionated those terms may be, simple because most people don't like to cause conflict with other seemingly reasonable people. So, yes, I care that people with no real feelings one way or another come here for answers and instead receive opinions based on falsified grounds or truly biased PoVs, and are then persuaded to follow that PoV. Then, when they post their already biased views as fact, other people immediately (and sometimes rudely) tell them exactly just how wrong they are. This causes the Newbie to immediately get defensive and attack back, never considering they could actually be wrong, and then everything goes to Hell, the flames rise, etc, etc. It's ridiculous, and aggravating.
Mostly, I'd just like to start a discussion with all you clever peoples to find some solutions to this particular problem. Arguing with people using facts never works if they don't WANT to actually acknowledge your existence, so that's out. I've tried, and been backed up by about ten+ other members on the Facts Presented. The OP still claimed the ridiculous item he had brought forth was infallibly true. So I know that one doesn't work. What else can we do here?
First, and most importantly, Assume Good Faith on the part of your fellow posters.
If only people could do this, then no one would get upset at another persons post. If a person is giving out their take on a particular issue, it's not the end of the world just because they have a dissenting view. Let them have that view and if others decide to adopt that view, that is their choice.
NOTE: I think the reason people are getting upset at the system is because it assumes good faith. If the members of the forums did the same, maybe they'd be more understanding.
If only people could do this, then no one would get upset at another persons post. If a person is giving out their take on a particular issue, it's not the end of the world just because they have a dissenting view. Let them have that view and if others decide to adopt that view, that is their choice.
NOTE: I think the reason people are getting upset at the system is because it assumes good faith. If the members of the forums did the same, maybe they'd be more understanding.
That's all well and good. However, assuming "good faith" only works so long as "bad faith" hasn't already been exhibited. Some people have already proven by their actions that they have no interest in civilized discourse or an honest give and take of opinion.
Assuming good faith is good advice when approaching a poster whose intentions have not already been revealed by a prior posting history. In the case of the average poster, I nearly always assume good faith.
In your case, axe, you have specifically stated that your intentions are to disparage the game supported by this community and have expressed no interest in positive interaction with either the game or its players. That is the very definition of "bad faith" as it concerns the community. If you were at all interested in leaving past perceptions of your actions behind you, you would stop using the same naming convention and avatar. If you had any interest in "good faith", you would have a positive impact by contributing something to the community rather than simply causing trouble on a regular basis. Until you exhibit any sign of good faith, there is no reason that anyone should give you the benefit of the doubt.
That's all well and good. However, assuming "good faith" only works so long as "bad faith" hasn't already been exhibited. Some people have already proven by their actions that they have no interest in civilized discourse or an honest give and take of opinion.
Assuming good faith is good advice when approaching a poster whose intentions have not already been revealed by a prior posting history. In the case of the average poster, I nearly always assume good faith.
In your case, axe, you have specifically stated that your intentions are to disparage the game supported by this community and have expressed no interest in positive interaction with either the game or its players. That is the very definition of "bad faith" as it concerns the community. If you were at all interested in leaving past perceptions of your actions behind you, you would stop using the same naming convention and avatar. If you had any interest in "good faith", you would have a positive impact by contributing something to the community rather than simply causing trouble on a regular basis. Until you exhibit any sign of good faith, there is no reason that anyone should give you the benefit of the doubt.
This. A thousand time, this.
Axe, you've dragged your name, and the name of all your sockpuppets through the mud. No one who reguarly posts on these boards listens to anything you say, but what about someone who just wants to learn more about D&D. You're going to drive them away, they're not going to play 4th edition. You think you win at that point? If you're goal is to bring down D&D as we know it, then yeah I guess you do.
Also, on the topic and without revealing any specifics, we do keep track of the sockpuppets are and sockpuppets of formerly banned accounts are not given a clean slate. However, it can be helpful if you provide context and posting history in your reports to us so that we can better deal with the issues.
I can't say how happy I am to hear this.
That's all well and good. However, assuming "good faith" only works so long as "bad faith" hasn't already been exhibited. Some people have already proven by their actions that they have no interest in civilized discourse or an honest give and take of opinion.
Assuming good faith is good advice when approaching a poster whose intentions have not already been revealed by a prior posting history. In the case of the average poster, I nearly always assume good faith.
In your case, axe, you have specifically stated that your intentions are to disparage the game supported by this community and have expressed no interest in positive interaction with either the game or its players. That is the very definition of "bad faith" as it concerns the community. If you were at all interested in leaving past perceptions of your actions behind you, you would stop using the same naming convention and avatar. If you had any interest in "good faith", you would have a positive impact by contributing something to the community rather than simply causing trouble on a regular basis. Until you exhibit any sign of good faith, there is no reason that anyone should give you the benefit of the doubt.
I do plan on putting my past behind me, right after 4.5 or 5e comes out. You guys keep forgetting that and I keep telling you. When will it sink in? My goal is not to "destroy D&D", it's to show why 4e is using the wrong sort of approach to D&D to both the members of this forum and WotC. Just because someone may not like my views does not mean I'm just going to sit back and accept the presence of 4e. I'm going to argue against it until the next edition. If that one does worse or as bad things as 4e did to D&D, then I'll officially have lost all hope in WotC and leave the forums for the most part (just lurking here and there). I still have faith that WotC can fix this error and that faith will continue until I see the results of the next edition.
Everything I have ever said on the Boards, I would be saying to people in real life. I have no regrets other than that I can't meet some people when I feel a face-to-face conversation would give me a better perspective on their Point of View. Or when they think they're "protected" because it's the Internet, they can say whatever they want. That's just immature.
Also, on the topic and without revealing any specifics, we do keep track of the sockpuppets are and sockpuppets of formerly banned accounts are not given a clean slate.
So, I'm reading this as "Frito, change your damn form-letter."
Also, I am very glad to hear that. It is one of the major concerns around these parts.
However, it can be helpful if you provide context and posting history in your reports to us so that we can better deal with the issues.
Is there any way to get something along the lines of "appropriate way to report" added to the "good forum practices" thread?
I think some posters just need to be better informed about what the moderators need in a report.
I always just assume the Mods know what they're looking for, as they must act according to the Guidelines of their jobs, and instead release all of my snark and usually MOST of my frustration or anger at the Poster to them when I report. I'm sure they usually just ignore it and follow their guidelines, but it makes me feel better that SOMEONE at least reads my ****. :D
I do that too!
Hell, that's why "extensive descriptions of the violations in the post, and/or the posting history of the reported user" wasn't much of a stretch for me.
Rants about other posters -do- have a place on these forums - in the "Report" box.
:D
Edit: I have removed content for being off topic disruption and baiting. Please review the Code of Conduct. Thank you.
deal
Aww, man! Come on, Chaos, I totally had A_D on that one! :P
DOESN'T COUNT HAHA I WAS OFFLINE AND DIDN'T SEE IT
(Kidding. If you actually did pwn me, congratulations.)
DOESN'T COUNT HAHA I WAS OFFLINE AND DIDN'T SEE IT
(Kidding. If you actually did pwn me, congratulations.)
I simply pointed out that when someone posted angrily, took offense at others' silly internet actions, but also echoed what you disliked, you didn't call them on it. Instead, you agreed with them.
I simply pointed out that when someone posted angrily, took offense at others' silly internet actions, but also echoed what you disliked, you didn't call them on it. Instead, you agreed with them.
I think that stems mostly from us having similar views. I was focusing on what he said, not how he said it.
So what's the point of keeping tabs on sockpuppets if the CoC still allows for infinite play? Entertainment value?
It ensures that if a post made by a problem poster is reported, the moderator reviewing it will take that into account when making a decision. It means that the problem posters will have to adjust their posting style or have their posts moderated.
I think that stems mostly from us having similar views. I was focusing on what he said, not how he said it.
Hence my smarmy remark on hypocrisy. I get mad arguing against you, you tell me I'm foolish. I get mad arguing YOUR side, you agree with me.
Deletion of an account is not just "the current" worst punishment, it's the worst punishment they can possibly create that does not negatively impact other users. There is quite literally nothing that any moderator on any website can do to a user that is within their power and authority other than deleting or barring access to their account. There is no way to stop a truly determined troll from rejoining the forum under a different name and coming back for more. They cannot do it. So the only solution that is guaranteed to stop them from coming back is to make them not want to come back.
Even if we suppose that IP bans could incidentally harm other users with the same IP address as a troll, it's still possible for moderators to look at a post and say, "You again? Bye." And no, I'm not saying that someone who gets a temp-ban or even a single perm needs to be given up on. But someone with hundreds of deleted/edited posts, numerous closed threads, and multiple perm-bans does. Are we seriously hoping that certain people will have some sort of spiritual awakening one day, even after so much disciplinary action simply fails to deter them?
This should be a website for gamers to have reasonably friendly discussions about WotC products. This site shouldn't be here as part of some noble community outreach program to rehabilitate people who seek validation via negative attention on the internet.
That's all well and good. However, assuming "good faith" only works so long as "bad faith" hasn't already been exhibited. Some people have already proven by their actions that they have no interest in civilized discourse or an honest give and take of opinion.
True, there's no reason to assume good faith if a user has stated that they are acting in bad faith. However, and this is the important bit, that's still no reason to stop acting politely, courteously, and in general as you would be if you were assuming good faith.
You gain nothing from being rude or offensive. Ever. There is no real benefit whatsoever in doing it. It will not stop behaviors you wish to discourage, it will not promote behaviors you wish to encourage, and it will never under any circumstances change your opponent's mind.
If you honestly believe someone is acting in bad faith, and either do not wish to be civil or find you cannot, the only reasonable course of action is to ignore them entirely, because that's the only other course of action that might ever result in the user leaving. (The boards' Ignore List function is useful for this purpose.)
Hence my smarmy remark on hypocrisy. I get mad arguing against you, you tell me I'm foolish. I get mad arguing YOUR side, you agree with me.
No, I honestly don't care if anybody gets angry. It's their problem, not mine. He agreed with me that anger on the internet is not rational. So if he was angry, then the hypocrisy was his.
1). If you think that someone is trolling and/or baiting do not reply to them on the forum. The more that they behave in this way without response the more such behavior sticks out. Also responding usually encourages them to continue and makes it seem more acceptable to the other members to behave in similar ways.
2). Report and Code of Conduct violations to the best of your ability. Remember that they moderator may know little of what the poster is up to, so the more information the better. The moderator is a third party and any hostility that seeps through to your post will likely reduce the chance of moderation.
And before someone else brings it up, the report button is not an "I win" button. About 90% of the posts that I report meet with moderation so it can work.
3). If you have a problem with a moderation choose you are supposed to e-mail customer service. Remember like reporting they are a third party and you need to explain yourself.
An another note moderation on this board is almost completely non-transparent. So mistakes can easily be overlooked and in the lack of information it is natural to assume the worst. At the very least this is a huge public relations problem.
It's rarely enforced. When it is, it is solely at the whim of whatever wizo/orc/whatever you're calling yourselves today.
Let's take a look:
Choose your account’s screen names carefully. Screen names that are deemed offensive may be modified or deactivated without notice. For example:
Names containing profanity, obscene slang, graphic anatomical references, racial, ethnic, sexist, or religious slurs
Hmm, I could just swear I've seen posts lately from a user calling himself Pixie Dick...
Do not use, post, distribute or link to obscene, pornographic, sexually explicit, graphically or gratuitously violent, derogatory, demeaning, malicious, defamatory, abusive, offensive, hateful or discriminatory language or content.
Hmm, I could just swear I've seen a thread in the last day or two containing multiple links to the FATAL rpg, which is universally accepted as "obscene, pornographic, sexually explicit", etc...
I know, I know. I am supposed to report those posts, right?
First of all, reports are generally ignored, or dealt with in the most expedient way to shut up the person reporting, not actually solve the problem.
Second of all, call me crazy, but I expect Online Representatives and Community Leads to actually step up and do their damn jobs. I don't get paid, or get fancy user titles for running around and reporting bad threads or trying to voice criticisms or feedback. I get accounts banned for doing so. Some of those enjoying the view from the high horse of VCL-dom need to step up and actually do something around here. Some of the people WotC is paying to be their online team need to get back to work.
Do not promote, plan, glorify or engage in any illegal activity or otherwise make available content that would encourage or provide instructions for a criminal offense. These topics include crimes relating to drugs, drug paraphernalia, ****, solicitation of a minor, computer hacking, and copyright violation.
Another user in this very thread stated that his reporting of posts containing threats of violence against users were ignored. I'm not familiar with the thread or posts he was referring to, but I believe him without pause. Why? I myself experienced the exact same thing, under a former account. My complaints, off forum to CS via the CS help interface, about posts involving sexual solicitation of minors and credit card fraud, were ignored.
Until the mythical day that wizo/orcs, after more than a decade of ignoring and abusing the COC for their own ends, decide to actually enforce the COC, fairly and consistently, it's a worthless web page, and it does absolutely nothing to help rid the community of trolls and troublemakers, which is what the posters in this thread want to accomplish.
Ultimately the only way to effectively fight trolls is to ignore them. Don't argue, don't reason, don't feel you have to get the last word in. Once you realize you're dealing with a troll... stop.
It's trivial to avoid an ip ban, or to create completely anonymous sock puppets. WotC may track those that don't care enough to really hide their tracks but that's really not going to accomplish much.
Ultimately the only way to effectively fight trolls is to ignore them. Don't argue, don't reason, don't feel you have to get the last word in. Once you realize you're dealing with a troll... stop.
I disagree.
Ignoring trolls does not work unless everyone does it. And hoping for that is completely utopian. I think it's typical of gamers to go for utopian over pragmatic everytime they have the choice.
It may be trivial to avoid one IP ban. That is why recurring trolls should be IP banned and their sock puppets IP banned on sight, not after they troll again.
It requires little work to go around the ban:
- Resetting the IP adress;
- Creating a new free e-mail account;
- Registering on the Wizards forums.
But if you have to do it often enough, filling forms gets boring and you might stop. Add to that a mandatory 48-hours "lurk only" period on every new account, and it becomes even more annoying to the trolls.
A troll should not be on his 6th sock puppet in 12 months. He should have gotten bored and left before his 60th or so, 6 months ago.
And that's how you clean the place.
Edit: By all means, ignore the trolls. This is still the best we users can do. But all by itself, it does not work. Some enforcement has to happen.
It's trivial to avoid an ip ban, or to create completely anonymous sock puppets.
The experience of forum managers throughout the internet is that this is simply irrelevant. As trivial as it may be to avoid an IP ban it is even more trivial to find a more poorly moderated forum in which to troll. And most trolls when confronted by a concerted effort to keep them out will migrate to a forum that is less aggressive.
Ultimately the only way to effectively fight trolls is to ignore them.
Of course people should ignore trolls. But asking 99% of the community to be responsible for the bad behavior of 1% of the community is not a good moderation policy, particularly when the alternative (aggressive moderation) works even better.
Until the mythical day that wizo/orcs, after more than a decade of ignoring and abusing the COC for their own ends, decide to actually enforce the COC, fairly and consistently, it's a worthless web page, and it does absolutely nothing to help rid the community of trolls and troublemakers, which is what the posters in this thread want to accomplish.
Are you serious? Do they make MORE money the angrier you get? Could you please remove yourself from your keyboard long enough to think of a coherent reason (besides hypothetical laziness) the ORCs would ignore these types of things?
Of course people should ignore trolls. But asking 99% of the community to be responsible for the bad behavior of 1% of the community is not a good moderation policy, particularly when the alternative (aggressive moderation) works even better.
Wrecan wins the Thread.
Ultimately the only way to effectively fight trolls is to ignore them.
No, the only way to fight them is effective moderation and administrative influence that dosen't tie the hands of the moderation.
The flaw in the ostrich solution [bury head in sand, ignore] is that it requires 100% compliance of all members *not* engaged in bad behavior. Moderation only requires dealing with on member per troll.
And fifth, getting into the habit of attacking those you see as trolls can, does, and will eventually mean you will attack people who intended no provocation whatsoever, who were intending to ask what they thought was an honest question or make what they thought was a legitimate comment. And when (not if) you do, you have become the source of the problem.
QFT.
After awhile you get all touchy and tempramental and BAM, you fire one off on somebody who didn't even deserve it.
I've seen stuff like that happen on the Realms forums, especially before the changeover to 4E, where somebody -not knowing any better- asks a commonly heard question that certain of the regular FR forum members all know the answer to.
So that guy gets flamed for not bothering to "do his research."
Anyway, the best thing to do is not to zero in on the jerks who keep firing away. Put them on the ignore list and also open up lines of communication with other community members by PM. Talk to the people who are the target of said jerk's behaviour and let them know they're not alone.
This should be a website for gamers to have reasonably friendly discussions about WotC products. This site shouldn't be here as part of some noble community outreach program to rehabilitate people who seek validation via negative attention on the internet.
LOL! I think you put that perfectly.
I disagree.
Ignoring trolls does not work unless everyone does it.
However, that's no reason not to do it. The strategy may or may not succeed if you do not respond. However, it will definitely fail if you do.
It may be trivial to avoid one IP ban. That is why recurring trolls should be IP banned and their sock puppets IP banned on sight, not after they troll again.
Generally, the first time you see a sock puppet is when they troll again, so it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Add to that a mandatory 48-hours "lurk only" period on every new account...
This would not be implemented. Too many legitimate users join up specifically to post quick rules questions and the like; that kind of traffic would be halted in its tracks by such a policy.
However, that's no reason not to do it. The strategy may or may not succeed if you do not respond. However, it will definitely fail if you do.
Nah, it will definitely fail in both cases. Getting enough compliance for this to work, on a forum this big, is about as probable as getting struck by lightning, a train and a falling piano all at the same time.
I don't advocate responding to trolls. I say that ignoring them and wishing everyone else did too, as your one and only strategy, is utopian. Of course we should ignore trolls, but it has to be accompanied by tighter moderation.
I find it very commendable that you, Mudbunny and the other VCLs promote good manners and conduct. Education has its place, definitely. But hoping that this can work alone is... sorry, there's just no way to sugar-coat it: it's naive.
Generally, the first time you see a sock puppet is when they troll again, so it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Or when you see a certain robot avatar combined with a certain writing style and the number of permanent bans he's had in his signature.
Also, currently, sock-puppets of repeat offenders don't get re-banned at the first sign of trolling. It takes a lot more.
This would not be implemented. Too many legitimate users join up specifically to post quick rules questions and the like; that kind of traffic would be halted in its tracks by such a policy.
Probably. It's a compromise. If it's worth it, why not?
This would not be implemented. Too many legitimate users join up specifically to post quick rules questions and the like; that kind of traffic would be halted in its tracks by such a policy.
This is why you have user permissions.
Make it so drop ins can post on the Rules forum, but have to lurk before they can participate in discussion boards.
Nah, it will definitely fail in both cases. Getting enough compliance for this to work, on a forum this big, is about as probable as getting struck by lightning, a train and a falling piano all at the same time.
I don't advocate responding to trolls. I say that ignoring them and wishing everyone else did too, as your one and only strategy, is utopian. Of course we should ignore trolls, but it has to be accompanied by tighter moderation.
I find it very commendable that you, Mudbunny and the other VCLs promote good manners and conduct. Education has its place, definitely. But hoping that this can work alone is... sorry, there's just no way to sugar-coat it: it's naive.
I never said it would be alone, or that I expect everyone to do it. (They should, because it would work, but I don't expect them to do it; I'm too cynical for that.) I'm saying it's the most effective way when used properly, and certainly it's the only thing individual users can do by themselves that can potentially have a positive impact.
It's like diet and exercise as a way of preventing heart disease. Yes, it's possible that science will come up with a way of stopping heart disease, so you can badger the medical community about it if you want, but there's no guarantee that they'll find it any time soon, so in the meantime the only things you can use to improve your personal chances are proper diet and exercise.
Or when you see a certain robot avatar combined with a certain writing style and the number of permanent bans he's had in his signature.
So...deliberately using an avatar, posting style, and signature that immediately associates you with a widely disliked banned user isn't trolling? :P
Probably. It's a compromise. If it's worth it, why not?
But is it worth it?
I don't believe so, no. You're inconveniencing hundreds of legitimate new users, probably driving a good number of them away from the boards entirely, in order to inconvenience--to a far lesser degree, I might add--maybe five people boards-wide?
This is why you have user permissions.
Make it so drop ins can post on the Rules forum, but have to lurk before they can participate in discussion boards.
*shakes head*
There are legitimate reasons for new posters to post in pretty much every single area of the forums, and they do so with regularity.
I still agree with Webster and think that ignoring the obvious trolls is the best policy...
I never said it would be alone, or that I expect everyone to do it. (They should, because it would work, but I don't expect them to do it; I'm too cynical for that.) I'm saying it's the most effective way when used properly, and certainly it's the only thing individual users can do by themselves that can potentially have a positive impact.
Yes, agreed. I don't think either that you need 100% compliance for this to work, but you need a majority of an order we are just not even close to reaching here.
It's like diet and exercise as a way of preventing heart disease. Yes, it's possible that science will come up with a way of stopping heart disease, so you can badger the medical community about it if you want, but there's no guarantee that they'll find it any time soon, so in the meantime the only things you can use to improve your personal chances are proper diet and exercise.
The squeeky wheel gets the grease. This thread here, it's all about the squeeking.
So...deliberately using an avatar, posting style, and signature that immediately associates you with a widely disliked banned user isn't trolling? :P
Ok, I knew this sentence was somehow wonky. It was supposed to mean: "sometimes, trolls don't even attempt to hide their old identities". And in these cases, ban-on-sight should be the default policy. When cops see an escaped convict wearing a striped jumpsuit on the street, they don't wait for him to break the law again: they put him right back in the slammer.
While I'm at it though, I'd like to comment on the subject of our "widely disliked banned user" and why I object to his continued presence here. I don't hate, or even dislike him. What I do dislike, besides the direct damage he does, are the many side effects that he and the mishandling of him have on this community. His continued presence here is an affront to CS, and to their authority as moderators. It sends all sorts of wrong messages to every forumite:
- The Wizards forums are troll-friendly.
- Here, you can even troll in a way rarely seen elsewhere: troll by reputation. You just have to troll long enough, come back, troll some more, etc. until your mere presence is enough to get flames going. This is made possible because you never get really banned, and you don't have to hide your past identities.
- It's ok to break the rules. You can come back with a clean slate. I do remember Tao (or was it Chaos?) saying that they did keep tabs on sock puppets, and I have observed that they are now very fast to delete or edit his posts if they are reported, but this has yet to show tangible results.
- It's ok to openly criticize, and even talk back to the moderators (hell, I'm sorta doing it right now). Their jobs would be easier if they had more respect going their way. Unfortunately, the way they handle this particular issue, that so many people see as a no brainer, looses them much of that respect. It sucks for them, because they're just doing the job the way they are told to do it, but it's still a problem for them.
- You can "play" the code of conduct in order to "legally troll".
- New members are treated with suspicion, and often wrongly accused of sock-puppetry.
- And the worst consequence of all: if the only way to incur a real sanction (by web forum standards, that is) is to troll blatantly and repeatedly, then every lesser offense is A-ok. This means that rudeness, incivility and veiled insults, a greater and more widespread problem than trolls themselves in my opinion, are completely without consequences. At worse, posts get deleted or edited. Having no manners means nothing and again, the Internet teaches the wrong lesson.
But is it worth it?
I don't believe so, no. You're inconveniencing hundreds of legitimate new users, probably driving a good number of them away from the boards entirely, in order to inconvenience--to a far lesser degree, I might add--maybe five people boards-wide?
That's a fair point. I'll tell you what: let's keep this one for another time. Right now, if we could just get CM and CS collectively past Step 1: Admitting We Have a Problem, that would make me a very happy camper.
Why not just ignore posters whom you find obnoxious, or rude? O wait, that would be just to easy and we couldn't all trumpet how valid and distinguished our positions here on the forums are. So many here feed the troll's fire it's ridiculous.
Ignoring trolls (and more generally, rude jerks) works up to a point. I use the ignore list plenty, but this feature does not block all the resulting crap that generally ensues, like:
- Someone quoting the ignoree's post;
- Someone flaming the ignoree;
- Someone flaming the flamer;
- Someone screaming we should all ignore it (this really is not you, I'm thinking of someone else here);
- The thread getting closed.
And yes, I am fully aware of the irony that this thread is the kind of attention that trolls want. But there is no way around that if we are to discuss the issue.
And i seriously doubt if the average gamer who drops in is going to be fooled by so called "misinformation".
I doubt that too. I think the typical forumite is intelligent enough to make the distinction. I don't see harsher moderation as patronizing the members, I just see it as improving the mood.
This is just the excuse used by so many to engage in the very same trolling behaviour they decry so loudly and so often...
I still agree with Webster and think that ignoring the obvious trolls is the best policy...
It is the best policy for us users. But relying on a critical mass of users to ignore problem posters is not the best policy for the moderators. And that's the point of this whole thread.
When an ignoree posts to a subscribed thread and you have it set to immediate e-mail notification, you still receive a notification AND the full text of the ignoree's post by e-mail!
I gotta say, that ignore policy is really good. If you have a problem with my well mannered and reasonable debate, feel free to put me on ignore. You won't have to read my posts. It will also prevent you from getting upset at them. Then I will be able to engage in discussion and spread my thoughts to others who are more willing and open-minded about 4e. I can't help it if you guys want to get upset because thats your choice, but you can ignore my posts and maybe that will stop the problem in the first place.
Until you change account again. I don't know how many accounts you've had, or if you've even had other accounts before (at least I can't say so here, because it's against the CoC), but these things change regularly. If I wait until the third or fourth trolling and insulting post before putting the poster on ignore (to give people a chance, and avoid ignoring posters who might just have had a bad day), then it's very limited how many negative posts I'll actually avoid seeing, because said poster might very well post under a different name the next week.
"Look-- new account; same avatar, so you'll know it's me (who else would bother?). Even got a brand new number in my sig."
I'd rather play D&D myself-- heck, I'd even be willing to play 4e ;).
Until you change account again. I don't know how many accounts you've had, or if you've even had other accounts before (at least I can't say so here, because it's against the CoC), but these things change regularly. If I wait until the third or fourth trolling and insulting post before putting the poster on ignore (to give people a chance, and avoid ignoring posters who might just have had a bad day), then it's very limited how many negative posts I'll actually avoid seeing, because said poster might very well post under a different name the next week.
It is inconvenient, I agree. Maybe anyone who suspects that a lot of people want to ignore him could post a list of his past, present, and possible future screen names. That would be a huge help to all of us!
It is the best policy for us users. But relying on a critical mass of users to ignore problem posters is not the best policy for the moderators. And that's the point of this whole thread.
There is a novel little feature some software has called global ignore, also known as a hellban. Essentially, it puts a given user on auto ignore for the entire forum except themselves. It came about back in the day when you really couldn't ban on IP et al. So you let the jerk keep posting unknowing that no one sees or replies to him.
:P
There is a novel little feature some software has called global ignore, also known as a hellban. Essentially, it puts a given user on auto ignore for the entire forum except themselves. It came about back in the day when you really couldn't ban on IP et al. So you let the jerk keep posting unknowing that no one sees or replies to him.
Epic.
Epic.
Oh yes.
1) Gather a great many strong men (and women too) to fight at thy side
2) Get together many a hefty torch, burning oil, any sort of magical flaming or acidic weaponry, and flasks of acid.
3) Through shear brute force, attack, and continue to attack the trolls until they move no more, then burn their bodies to ash. Remember that they may return even after apparent death, so be thee thorough.
Rejoice in thine victories, though morn those lost, for the Trolls are truly a mighty adversary. It is always advisable to bring with thee a sorcerer or wizard to assist in ridding thineself of a nest of trolls. Their spells need not break their skin to release their souls.
[/joke]
Please be really aware of how your posts might come across to other forum goers
Some people know *exactly* how their posts come across and get off on it.
That's actually the core of the problem isn't it?
Some people know *exactly* how their posts come across and get off on it.
I still think that if you ignore a post you won't have this problem. You can only get mad at someone if you let yourself do so. Also, as many others have pointed out, these are just words on the internet, if you're getting upset at text on the internet over a game, you need to re-evaluate the reasons for why you're getting upset. Remember that D&D is just a game, you should never get that emotional over a game.
I still think that if you ignore a post you won't have this problem. You can only get mad at someone if you let yourself do so. Also, as many others have pointed out, these are just words on the internet, if you're getting upset at text on the internet over a game, you need to re-evaluate the reasons for why you're getting upset. Remember that D&D is just a game, you should never get that emotional over a game.
Tell that to most of the people who play any sport in the world.
how many accounts exactly has psionx (axetank now) had?????
Please don;t tell me their different people, exactly how many anti-4e code of conduct lawyers with the same robot avatar posting in the community bussiness forum do yout think could reasonably be different people?
Tell that to most of the people who play any sport in the world.
Sports player have basically the lowest frequencey of personalization of any group of which you could conceive. A member who even slightly more than once per month loses their cool over getting wronged will get booted off the team -- or even the league -- within an instant, no matter how good they are. Know why? Because they will ruin the entire sport with their stupidity if it's allowed to continue. They are rightfully thrown out on their ass.
Ok, longtime lurker and guy who 2 years ago adamantally fought the coughstupidpeoplecough who though fighters were better than wizards and clerics in 3e...
how many accounts exactly has psionx (axetank now) had?????
Please don;t tell me their different people, exactly how many anti-4e code of conduct lawyers with the same robot avatar posting in the community bussiness forum do yout think could reasonably be different people?
7 at least. One a month since the C&C forums.
And he's never pretended to be different people. Just the opposite, in fact.
Still missing it. Attacking me or my actions has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make, and is only fulfilling your personal agenda.
The point is that people shouldn't get so worked up over a game that they're willing to insult others and drag their reputation through the mud. Also, not using the ignore function and flaming others simply perpetuates the hatred.
People who complain about the ignore function not being good enough probably don't use the ignore function.
Or, those people know the ignore function is not all it's cracked up to be because they probably use it and know its limitations.
Ok, longtime lurker and guy who 2 years ago adamantally fought the coughstupidpeoplecough who though fighters were better than wizards and clerics in 3e...
Actually if you preferred martial characters over spellcasters, they were in fact better. Unless you had to have the optimised uber character. In which case roleplaying probably wasn't your primary motivation anyway....
Or, those people know the ignore function is not all it's cracked up to be because they probably use it and know its limitations.
-Tell me about it. I get to still see post from sockpuppets on the threads that I am subscribed to.
18DELTA :D
Or, those people know the ignore function is not all it's cracked up to be because they probably use it and know its limitations.
There are two flaws in the ignore system that I am aware of.
1) You can still see someone's sock puppets.
Easily solved. You ignore the sock puppet. And the sock puppet after that. And after that, and after that. If you choose to respond to the sock puppet, then the fault is yours, and it is no failing of the ignore system. Ignoring what you see is the mature thing to do. If you don't realise its a sock puppet, then surely the person will still end up on your ignore list by virtue of posting distastefully.
2) You can see it when someone quotes an ignored poster.
As above. You choose to behave like an adult. "Darn it, I can see the crap that so-and-so said now. Oh well, let me go ahead and feed the troll. The ignore function failed, I have no choice." Is not a valid stance to take. Instead, you say to yourself "I'm gonna go ahead and act like an adult, because nothing good will come of responding".
These are minor inconviences, compared to the much more invasive inconveniences suggested by some in this thread. And, this minor inconvenience works as long as you consistently choose to behave like a mature adult. And, all to often, the people who engage the trolls (knowing full well that they are trolls) are the exact opposite of mature adults.
I simply do not respond to those that I feel are baiting/trolling/flaming and report them instead.
However, the ignore function has flaws.
1). Before you can ignore someone they must first do something to be worth ignoring in the first place, under that account name. That means you will still get exposed to baiting/trolling/flaming by those that do such at least once. If a person creates a new account you can be exposed again.
2). I cannot report a break in the code of conduct that I cannot see. If a post remains on the board that is meant to cause trouble then someone else is likely to respond to it. This goes for other posters as well. If they cannot see the offense they cannot report it.
3). If you subscribe to a thread with e-mail notification, you will get a e-mail telling exactly what is in the posts of posters that you put on your ignore list.
4). Ignoring posters will not stop OTHERS from taking the bait and the thread being derailed or the thread being locked. I'll once again point out [thread=1046960]4th Edition Motivators[/thread] which was derailed, locked, and then deleted from one single poster.
Posters that constantly bait/troll inhibit the free exchange of ideas. If you must ignore the problem that means THERE MUST BE A PROBLEM TO IGNORE IN THE FIRST PLACE. The idea that there is no problem if you ignore it is logically flawed. Much like the Oberoni Fallacy the conclusion conflicts with the premise of such as statement. Also as above ignoring it subjects other to it as well.
To state it logically would go along the lines, Not publicly responding to baiting/trolling/flaming prevents the problem from becoming a bigger problem.
Actually if you preferred martial characters over spellcasters, they were in fact better. Unless you had to have the optimised uber character. In which case roleplaying probably wasn't your primary motivation anyway....
Yes, I perfectly understand that you can have fun playing martial characters (I have and do in fact)
I'm just saying objectively arcana/divine spellcasters are flat better from a mechanicle point of view. THis is as close to indisputable as anything could possibly be.
Not that I'm saying people who play fighters are stupid or anything, fighters can be fun. I maid a cool archer fighter back in 3.5, they're just weaker than the wizards and clerics.
Yes, I perfectly understand that you can have fun playing martial characters (I have and do in fact)
I'm just saying objectively arcana/divine spellcasters are flat better from a mechanicle point of view. THis is as close to indisputable as anything could possibly be.
Not that I'm saying people who play fighters are stupid or anything, fighters can be fun. I maid a cool archer fighter back in 3.5, they're just weaker than the wizards and clerics.
Not to derail the thread, but this discussion has a life all of its own. I believe it raged on for several hundred pages back on the previous editions forums. Seems rather disputable. Not that that is MY contention. Just pointing out that there were many who believed otherwise. I believe they were all disintegrated....
Not to derail the thread, but this discussion has a life all of its own. I believe it raged on for several hundred pages back on the previous editions forums. Seems rather disputable. Not that that is MY contention. Just pointing out that there were many who believed otherwise. I believe they were all disintegrated....
ok yeah we probably shoulnd't go into this (there were 100 page threads) but most of the pro fighter peoples had 3 major arguement
A) Doesn;t matter, role playing good
Answer: Not really relevant, yes, fighters can be fun
B) Fighter guard wizards
They really can;t, in 4e sure, but in 3.5 fihgters had next to no stickiness, monsters could just suck up the low damage oppurtunity attack or three and hit the wizards. Plus wizards can summon creatures to protect him or make walls.
C) Fihgters are dependable
For wizards - going nova works most of the time, at high levels you have way too many spells, plus you have wands and staffs, and blah blah
For clerics/druids, they can melee too...
IE: Yes, its "disputable" if by disputable you mean people disagree, I was kinda going towards, all the people who disagree are kinda wrong... there's a whole host of reasons, like druid's class features making him as good at melee as the fighter, divine power maing cleric good at melee, Save or die wizards spells, TIME STOP, infinite money at level 7 via fabricate, TIME STOP, wish, DID I MENTION TIME STOP.
Fighters can... hit things. Kinda hard. Witht he exception of either the spiked chian op attack/ trip build that fails once creatures get big/fly and the ultra charger who gets about one good attack in per round (ok, the ultra charger is good, but comparatively the wizards/cleric have MORE ways to break the game)
ok, that's a long digression and really off topic, based on my slightly humorous self introduction. Not that I mind talking about it. I like arguing
OK! So back on topic, things have been much nicer the past few days, and I think a little bit of that is due to the fact that some of us have been joking around in this Thread, which is a "What Race/Class am I?" dealio. I think it's actually a bit harder to call people petty names when there's a face to that person, as they aren't so anonymous anymore. So if you're looking for a good laugh or two (or three, or four...), then check it out and post a pic, 'cause we've got some funny lookin' people posting here! *Sigh* Now I just have to find a good picture of myself to post... :$
Also, if you're really angry, you can just tell someone how ugly they are. :P
2). I cannot report a break in the code of conduct that I cannot see. If a post remains on the board that is meant to cause trouble then someone else is likely to respond to it. This goes for other posters as well. If they cannot see the offense they cannot report it...
4). Ignoring posters will not stop OTHERS from taking the bait and the thread being derailed or the thread being locked. I'll once again point out [thread=1046960]4th Edition Motivators[/thread] which was derailed, locked, and then deleted from one single poster.
Thank you! Ignore lists are only good when you want to avoid seeing posts by someone who is otherwise civil and decent. The problem with troll posts is *not* that they inflict 1d6+Cha psychic damage to the reader. If someone gets threads closed or derailed, then ignoring him only only stops you from making the problem worse. It doesn't fix anything and it makes reporting inconvenient.