Here are a few previous discussions on the subject:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1016158
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1020294
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1018659
Any thread you would've started previously on the mature forum now goes in the most appropriate "regular" forum. Enjoy.
Summarizing: Gamer_Zer0 doesn't see a need for the forum, so therefore it goes away.
A shame when the community guy won't listen to the community, huh?
That said, Zer0's current "new layout" shows a Mature Forum in it - so perhaps we're jumping to conclusions due to the unexplained and rather sudden locking of the current Mature Forum.
A shame when the community guy won't listen to the community, huh?
That said, Zer0's current "new layout" shows a Mature Forum in it - so perhaps we're jumping to conclusions due to the unexplained and rather sudden locking of the current Mature Forum.
Problem - you are ONE segment of the communauty. Why the whole of a communauty should abide by one part only?
You want a good reason? frankly, you know as much as us that there is always ridiculous or offensive threads and lame posts poping now and then.
It's not always Mature, really. Like 4th Ed's CoC subforum.
The same is true anywhere else, though, Ubbergeek. Lame and/or offensive posts pop up everywhere; this is the internet, after all...
But like CoC, Mature tended to attract them more. One flammes warriors and DRAMA LULZ, the other... immature ones and very unPCness.
It is a beacon, /B/ style attraction if the mods weren't checking.
And well.... if we all are mature posters, it could be argued that much of those topics could be just redirected where they belong.
(I am annoyed by the 'mods/WOTC *CoC-unworthy word* censorship!' outcries)
But like CoC, Mature tended to attract them more. One flammes warriors and DRAMA LULZ, the other... immature ones and very unPCness.
It is a beacon, /B/ style attraction if the mods weren't checking.
And well.... if we all are mature posters, it could be argued that much of those topics could be just redirected where they belong.
Then again, would you rather have all the flames and vitriol concentrated in the Mature and/or C&C forums, or distributed throughout the boards?
Varia, are you at least 18? I think the boards remove the mature topics forum from the list if you're too young.
If they were locked, they're unlocked now.
No. They are still locked.
I guess 4.0's G rating is already getting enforced. :raincloud
So, we recently had a short thread about a contingency plan on the Mature Forum. Where do we head now Mature Forum readers?
You (or someone), will have to make their own forum.
So -- go forth and spread your matureness around the forum.
According to Gamer_Zer0 (the WotC employee behind the decision) any thread you would've started on the Mature forum would now go in the most appropriate "regular" forum. Have a question about a spell? Spells and Magic. Have a question about Vow of Poverty? Skills and Feats. Have a question about alignment? D&D General (or, possibly, What's a Player to Do or What's a DM to Do).
So -- go forth and spread your matureness around the forum.
And get banned? I don't think so.
Well, I am over 18, so could you tell me where the mature boards are so that I can see for myself if they messed up or if I'm simply lost inside Gleemax? :P
http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=126
What a sad day. Everyone get ready for D&D's G rating.
And get banned? I don't think so.
The CoC applied just as much to the Mature Forums as to any other forums. If it had been bannable, it would have been just as bannable in the mature forums. This is the main reason the forum is gone. It served no real purpose except to promote the new "mature" books that came out at the time it was created.
Is there some official reason for this posted anywhere?
Here's an unofficial reason.
Yeah, I was able to go there, but I guess you can't post. Is there some official reason for this posted anywhere?
No. I heard unofficially that a survey of topics indicated the maturity level of the posts were that of 13 yr old boys. They will reopen under the title "immature boards".
Maybe. In fact, definitely. But what WotC did or didn't do with regard to this discussed-for-the-past-two-weeks forum does not change the expectation that members of these forums will remain polite.
Then how about the Community Management lead by example? Aside from my feelings on this issue, it was handled very poorly. It was done utterly without regard for what consequences it might have and without consulting the only people whose opinion really matters: The regulars (Token discussions do not count as "consultation"). So not only was it rude, it was plain selfish (The same kind of selfishness we see in young children).
The expectation of civility is quite hypocritical and without merit in this case.
They appear to be following the same mindset as 4e.
Aka, "It doesn't matter how many people your tactics tick off and drive away, as long as you can draw in enough to replace them and then some."
And this is any different from say, the treatment of anything that wasn't glowing praise of 4e after the announcement came out? The boards have been going to hell in a handbasket for a while now.
They appear to be following the same mindset as 4e.
Aka, "It doesn't matter how many people your tactics tick off and drive away, as long as you can draw in enough to replace them and then some."
Here's another analogy that follows much the same mindet: The way the the print run of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines was canceled.
Their *tactics* of late seem to be "business is business . . . you wouldn't understand anyway, so why bother explaining it to you." Or am I wrong ;)?
And this is any different from say, the treatment of anything that wasn't glowing praise of 4e after the announcement came out?
Look at the C&C forum. Trolls run rampant spreading lies and congratulate each other for it (and themselves, in the case of sock puppet accounts). Of course, there are pro-4E people there too that don't know how to shut up and ignore/report the trolls. I just make do with opening threads, reporting the OP and linking to relevant posts, which doesn't get anything done, so I then start wondering why I bother.
The boards have been going to hell in a handbasket for a while now.
They appear to be following the same mindset as 4e.
Aka, "It doesn't matter how many people your tactics tick off and drive away, as long as you can draw in enough to replace them and then some."
I've actually been annoyed by the fact that the C&C forum is swarming with trolls and nobody does anything. This forum needs community moderation (in the sense that it's moderated by the community itself), but I don't think WotC understands that hiring a "dictator" to bring the entire forum into a state of neverending bureaucracy (Community Management and everything that comes along with it) actually lets people get away with murder. Even /b/ has a stricter moderation policy, and that place has no rules whatsoever (except, understandably, no child pornography).
These forums are a real problem and I can't seem to understand why this is even allowed to happen. If I had any authority here I'd ban ****ing everyone and make them all start over, then ban them again just for good measure.
I am curious what GamerZero intended to post before the board was locked.
"In before the lock, yo!"
Speaking of PR, I suspect that a lot of you might be having an easier time of whatever you're trying to accomplish here if you'd exercise a little restraint, as opposed to throwing temper tantrums and making demands as if you own the forum and everyone has to answer to you.
I'm sure someone would like to respond with "The mods are behaving rudely too!" but come now, children. I'm confident that you all have it in you to resist the urge to fight fire with fire.
You, in particular, constantly give the impression of being someone who just complains because he's had it in for The Man ever since they (supposedly) treated his brother improperly, rather than someone who actually wants to see the forum improve. If you feel you're getting ignored, this is probably why.
"Either that admin or Zer0 had better start explaining"? They'd better start explaining? Or what? You'll get angry? You'll continue making vitriol-laden posts about how inept they are?
Try "Some sort of explanation, from either the admin or Zer0, would be appreciated." I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work, but when push comes to shove, if I were a mod, I know which one I'd be more inclined to respond to, and considering I'm under no obligation to do so, my inclination to respond to you is pretty much the deciding factor in whether or not I respond to you, and whether or not you get an answer that satisfies you if I do.
I've already apologised for my behaviour. Regardless of any argument you can put forward to show that our response was reactionary, it is undeniable that our board has been closed with no prior warning and no explanation. Frankly, your comments are off-topic, Wight. This thread is to get an answer as to why the board was closed, not to argue about our response to it. I consider this the end of the matter, so please don't reprimand us any further.
"In before the lock, yo!"
If I was drinking something you'd owe me a new laptop for that.
GZ: Before anything this drastic there should be an announcement at least a week before the event. This gives the members time to make adjustments.
Everyone else: Even though it is by no means a replacement you can still download threads you want to keep even though it is locked as well as asking your local FL (which some have already started requesting threads get moved to the appropriate forum) to have threads moved out of the locked forum. I know it is not the same as the Mature forums, but it is something, and maybe this exercise will prove to CM that the Mature Forums are needed.
I'm gonna go ahead and apologize in advance because I already know this is going to be long and complex. Mike has given the thumbs up to having threads moved out of the mature forum and into the "regular" population. So here's the start of it. I'm going to duplicate the thread mentioned above. Unless otherwise indicated, all locations are on the 3.5 forums.Please...
...move this thread to D&D General
...move this thread to Spells and Magic Items
...move this thread to What's a Player to Do?
...move this thread to What's a Player to Do?
...move this thread to D&D General (as best as I can tell)
...move this thread to D&D General
...move this thread to D&D Adventures
...move this thread to Astrid's Parlor
...move this thread to D&D General
...move this thread to Deities and the Planes
...move this thread to D&D General
...move this thread to Astrid's Parlor
...move this thread to D&D General
...move this thread to... er... suggestions? D&D General?
...move this thread to Spells and Magic Items
...move this thread to D&D Community Business, and then lock it since it would be a duplicate
...move this thread to Equipment and Combat
...move this thread to Psionics
...move this thread to 4e Rules (assuming that's the best place to talk about Power Sources; if not, redirect at your discretion)
...move this thread to D&D General
...move this thread to What's a DM to Do?
...move this thread to Prestige Classes
...move this thread to Spells and Magic Items
...move this thread to Monsters' Lair
Thanks.
I'll go through the second page tomorrow. After that, I think we should probably deal with anything older on a thread by thread basis.
I too am confused about this move and would like an explanation. There were several topics that were currently being discussed that I was interested in continuing. Are we supposed to start asking these questions on the other boards? Can I start a discussion about the alignment considerations of sexual slavery in D&D on the "D&D General" fora?
Yes.
What I also find perplexing is that, after the mature boards were locked, a thread from a different board was moved to the mature boards, thereby curtailing any further discussion of that particular issue. I concur with Awesome Dude and Wight Chocolate (surprise surprise) that the Community Management team doesn't "owe" us an explanation, but one would definitely be appreciated.
Which thread was that? Nothing should be getting moved to the Mature forum.
Here are a few previous discussions on the subject:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1016158
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1020294
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1018659
Which thread was that? Nothing should be getting moved to the Mature forum.
First (non-sticky) thread in the forum. I've requested it get moved to Spells and Magic Items. I was also puzzled, though, why something was moved there after it was locked. Any way of finding out who did it and why?
First (non-sticky) thread in the forum. I've requested it get moved to Spells and Magic Items. I was also puzzled, though, why something was moved there after it was locked. Any way of finding out who did it and why?
Yeah, I should be able to trace it back to a VCL request.
Unless there was a VCL request I didn't see, this shouldn't have been moved by a WizO. Where was it originally? I'll move it back.
00:48, 6th May 2008 - WizO_Mired - Thread moved with redirect to 'Mature Topics'.
Unless there was a VCL request I didn't see, this shouldn't have been moved by a WizO. Where was it originally? I'll move it back.
I don't know where it came from originally; in the forum lead suggestions thread, I recommended Spells and Magic Items as a good fit, because, well, it's about the results of a spell.
If you do move it, please make a note in the forum lead suggestions thread so Webster doesn't duplicate your efforts?
Why is the mature board locked? I just want an answer!
For a few reasons:
1) WotC has decided that they don't want an age-verified forum, because it's really easy to cheat (which likely creates liability issues)
2) Once you remove the restriction on the forum and make it open to everybody, then (the theory goes) all those threads already belong in other places.
I disagree with that opinion (and argued to keep the Mature forum in place, even if it was open to everybody). But that's the summary of the reasons why.
A forum is a privately owned place... they can do what they feel is fine. We are all 'visitors' here, in a way, and we don't pay them or something.
I in no way implied that the forums do not belong to WotC, and are theirs to manage in any way they see fit. I merely stated that as a user of the forums the locking of a board without notice or explanation causes me concern. I phrased my questions the way that I did, because similar actions in the future would cause me to evaluate the usefulness of this website as it applies to me.
A week would be ideal. I think even 48 hours notice would've been good...
From my understanding of what happened, G0 was going to post something, but Michelle locked it ahead of schedule.
I'll go through the second page tomorrow. After that, I think we should probably deal with anything older on a thread by thread basis.
How about you do pages 1-5 and I'll do 6-10 and we go from there? Want to make sure we're not duplicating efforts.
this thread to Astrid's
thisthread to D&D General
thisthread to Classes
Thisthread to PrC's
Thisthread to Classes
Thisto races
Thisto D&D General I guess
I guess put these on the Horror Board and we'll hope that has a place to go:
Will the 3 Evil Alignments work together?
Blood is okay, gore is okay, extensive violence is okay
[HIGHLIGHTED THREAD] Aftermath of War
[HIGHLIGHTED THREAD] Using Evil Tempters
Moral implications of undead creation
How would Good act if Evil twisted Good into Evil?
Blackmail Dilemma
Psychological Effects of Magic pt 1: The Witnesses
Glorified Serial Killers
Film villains, their alignments and whether or not you would call them Vile.
[HIGHLIGHTED THREAD] Paladins and War Crimes
Greatest Anti-Heroes of all time
This really needs a Diversity in Gaming type spot. Let's go with Astrid's just because it directly involves women in gaming.
Sexual or romantic acts....at the table?
Thisto D&D General
This and thisthread to Campaign Workshop
Thisto Campaign Workshop
Thisto D&D General
Thisto D&D General
Thisto General
Thisto Campaign Workshop
Thisto Campaign Workshop
Thisto d20 Modern General
But as a mom, I can tell you that I would not be okay with letting one of my kids visit message forums that casually discuss the morality of "relations" with a dominated person on an otherwise all-ages board (the exact one I saw it on escapes me at the moment, I think it might have been player dilemmas?)
If those types of posts become widespread on these forums, I think it would be irresponsible of WotC to not publicize to parents that the over-16 set is what their game is geared for. I thought the age recommendation, officially, was 12+. Were one of my daughters 12, I really doubt I'd be cool with them reading about the vagaries of growing up with a succubus. Call me a prude, but that is not what I think most parents would consider appropriate subject matter for a child-geared D&D game, let alone for them to be discussing with on the internet with people twice their age.
Hey, if this game is just for adults, then sure, the message forums should be, too. If it's okay for a 12 year old to play it, then either leave out the talk about mindrape or handle it responsibly. If the mature forum is indeed handled by the same code of conduct as all the other forums, *none* of those posts should have been allowed to exist in the first place if they can't be integrated into the other forums, right?
I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just that you can't please everybody. This integrating-posts thing sounds a lot like straddling the fence to me. You need to hop off and pick a side. Either adult subjects are ok, or they aren't. If they are, they need to be put where ADULTS can address them without otherwise lawfully aligned kids innocently stumbling across them ;) If they aren't, they need to be gone right along with the mature forum.
Just my two cents. I doubt they'll buy me any fans, but moms are used to being unpopular.
For threads with activity more than a month old, you may choose to repost the topic for discussion if you feel it's: a) Worth discussion, b) on-topic with the forum you choose, and c) not a violation of the code of conduct.
Please do not request additional threads be moved from the mature forum, I've asked that the VCLs not move them, but if some requests start slipping through, we'll have to soft delete the forum by moving it to a moderator only area.
Then again, would you rather have all the flames and vitriol concentrated in the Mature and/or C&C forums, or distributed throughout the boards?
Quoted for truth. Those threads aren't going to go away; now the administration gets to chase them all around the site, ban people left and right, and generally make the boards a very unpleasant place for people whose thoughts are inappropriate for middle schoolers. Yappari.
Quoted for truth. Those threads aren't going to go away; now the administration gets to chase them all around the site, ban people left and right, and generally make the boards a very unpleasant place for people whose thoughts are inappropriate for middle schoolers. Yappari.
We'll see. All this changes for me is that I have to check 8 different boards instead of one. Inconvenient, sure, but not game breaking... err... Earth-shattering.
A forum is a privately owned place... they can do what they feel is fine. We are all 'visitors' here, in a way, and we don't pay them or something.
While this is true, it is also true that only the rudest of hosts would toss a cup of hot tea on a visitor and then refuse to explain his actions on the grounds that it's his house and the visitor has no right to complain.
Also, I am not a parent, but I am 100% in agreement with sans_seraph. The under-16 set isn't generally buying their own books, you know... That would be their parents' money doing the talking.
Of course, if your intent is to eliminate Mature topics entirely, then I guess this works. It still would have been nice of you to warn the regulars over there, though.
While this is true, it is also true that only the rudest of hosts would toss a cup of hot tea on a visitor and then refuse to explain his actions on the grounds that it's his house and the visitor has no right to complain.
Oh come on. That's hyperbole if I've ever seen it! WotC didn't do any physical harm or pain, they locked us out of one room in their house (if we're maintaining the party analogy). It doesn't matter how many times we were able to sneak off into that room and drink, smoke and get laid. Now we're not allowed. WotC's house. WotC's rules.
Of course, if your intent is to eliminate Mature topics entirely, then I guess this works. It still would have been nice of you to warn the regulars over there, though.
Would have been nice, yes. It's not the end of the world, though.
Please do not request additional threads be moved from the mature forum, I've asked that the VCLs not move them, but if some requests start slipping through, we'll have to soft delete the forum by moving it to a moderator only area.
So wait. Not only did you lock the forum without warning, you also won't let the VCL's move those threads that have been requested moved?
On a related note: is it possible to report someone here for poor customer service / incompetence? I know at a store you can go talk to the store manager, but what about on here?
I am going through all the posts in the mature forum that have been active in the past month and are either moving them to where they belong (the first was done mostly as Zherog requested) or closed them if they were not appropriate for our forums, (such as the one talking about their character having sex with a 12 year old girl). I also closed threads that were specifically directed at the mature forum.
For threads with activity more than a month old, you may choose to repost the topic for discussion if you feel it's: a) Worth discussion, b) on-topic with the forum you choose, and c) not a violation of the code of conduct.
Please do not request additional threads be moved from the mature forum, I've asked that the VCLs not move them, but if some requests start slipping through, we'll have to soft delete the forum by moving it to a moderator only area.
Don't take this wrong, Mike. But I utterly, completely disagree with you on both points.
1) Again, no offense, but I don't think you're the best arbiter to decide where a thread goes.
2) You've now insulted the Mature forum twice, first by closing down the forum without any advanced warning and then by telling them that they're discussions can't be relocated.
You frankly should've thought about how to handle all those threads before you went and had the forum locked; but you didn't, so now we have to deal with it. At least let people who better know the forums make the decisions where to put the threads.
From page 6 on the mature boards, Please move: >>snip<<
It's probably moot now, but for future reference these links would go in the "forum lead suggestion" thread.
edit: and, now that I've read the "requests" thread it seems the mature forum is being handled outside the normal loop. Nevermind.
From page 6 on the mature boards, Please move:
this thread to Astrid's
thisthread to D&D General
thisthread to Classes
Thisthread to PrC's
Thisthread to Classes
Thisto races
Thisto D&D General I guess
From page 7-10, please move:
Thisto D&D General
This and thisthread to Campaign Workshop
Thisto Campaign Workshop
Thisto D&D General
Thisto D&D General
Thisto General
Thisto Campaign Workshop
Thisto Campaign Workshop
Thisto d20 Modern General
These threads on the Mature boards I can't figure out where they should go. Most would fit beautifully in a "Diversity in Gaming" board or a "Horror" board but the first was I guess turned down the second will soon have no where to go itself.
I guess put these on the Horror Board and we'll hope that has a place to go:
Will the 3 Evil Alignments work together?
Blood is okay, gore is okay, extensive violence is okay
[HIGHLIGHTED THREAD] Aftermath of War
[HIGHLIGHTED THREAD] Using Evil Tempters
Moral implications of undead creation
How would Good act if Evil twisted Good into Evil?
Blackmail Dilemma
Psychological Effects of Magic pt 1: The Witnesses
Glorified Serial Killers
Film villains, their alignments and whether or not you would call them Vile.
[HIGHLIGHTED THREAD] Paladins and War Crimes
Greatest Anti-Heroes of all time
This really needs a Diversity in Gaming type spot. Let's go with Astrid's just because it directly involves women in gaming.
Sexual or romantic acts....at the table?
For threads with activity more than a month old, you may choose to repost the topic for discussion if you feel it's: a) Worth discussion, b) on-topic with the forum you choose, and c) not a violation of the code of conduct.
That's what I did with my suggestions-- these were threads with quite a few replies that were actually interesting and appropriate. As you could see, there are a ton I didn't suggest to move because they aren't appropriate for the rest of the boards, but the ones linked above should be saved and reopened for conversation.
Please do not request additional threads be moved from the mature forum, I've asked that the VCLs not move them, but if some requests start slipping through, we'll have to soft delete the forum by moving it to a moderator only area.
So what changed between me asking if we could do this and you saying yes and this decision? It's frustrating that this is now the second time I've spent a significant amount of time on something only to have it go to waste. Could we get a better explanation?
I am curious what GamerZero intended to post before the board was locked.
A forum is a privately owned place... they can do what they feel is fine. We are all 'visitors' here, in a way, and we don't pay them or something.
While I agree with the point you're trying to make, i.e. that the posters aren't entitled to the mature forum in any special way, I feel I must point out that this is a move that doesn't go far garner goodwill amongst the guests for their gracious host.
I'm not issuing an ultimatum or a threat or anything, but I can see where those who are upset are coming from. A host must be polite if he wishes to continue entertaining guests.
So what changed between me asking if we could do this and you saying yes and this decision? It's frustrating that this is now the second time I've spent a significant amount of time on something only to have it go to waste. Could we get a better explanation?
I didn't realize that you folks intended to request 10+ pages of threads to be moved. I've moved all the active discussions (a reply within 30 days) to new forums as requested.
It was done utterly without regard for what consequences it might have and without consulting the only people whose opinion really matters: The regulars
You are making hyperbole-laden accusations and showing selfish bias here.
I suspect the management very seriously considered the consequences. And the whining complaints of a very small number of people is not exactly a huge consequence in comparison to what is far more likely to be a legal department description of the potential consequences.
While seeking your opinion or my opinion on a matter might be considered polite, it is not necessary.
The expectation of civility is quite hypocritical and without merit in this case.
Although individual members of these Boards may make the expectation of civility futile, the expectation that members post with civility is neither hypocritical nor without merit. Although some members may feel posting rudely can be justified, such justification is often a rationalization for what can best be described as a deficiency in character.
- If any given poster believes this does not point at them, they are probably right.
- If any poster reading this believes I am speaking of them specifically, they too are probably right.
I didn't realize that you folks intended to request 10+ pages of threads to be moved. I've moved all the active discussions (a reply within 30 days) to new forums as requested.
All of those threads are viable conversations that are now stifled. My original idea was to request two pages worth of threads to be moved (which would be a bit more than a month, I believe), and then handle other threads on a case-by-case basis. Autumn's original plan (it would seem) is to move everything. While I have a lot of experience on this forum, Autumn has more -- and in more roles. I'm willing to defer to her ideas in this instance.
I'm totally willing to work with you and/or Webster to figure out the best way to get threads moved without overwhelming the Forum Lead Requests thread. I'm good with establishing another thread for it, or dealing with it via PM, or whatever other ideas. But I think Autumn's plan of moving everything (or, at least, everything that's appropriate) is a good one.
I also just want to add that this is something that should've been thought about and planned for beforehand. I know hindsight is always 20/20, but this transition period could've gone smoother if the Forum Leads for the forum could've been given an opportunity to develop a plan of action ahead of time.
I also just want to add that this is something that should've been thought about and planned for beforehand. I know hindsight is always 20/20, but this transition period could've gone smoother if the Forum Leads for the forum could've been given an opportunity to develop a plan of action ahead of time.
After we went in and reviewed some of the threads in that forum, it became clear that we needed to close it down right away. There was definite concern on what others internally might have thought if they read some of the threads in that forum, and our ability to explain why we were letting it remain open. Waiting for someone else to tell us it needed to be closed would have opened the door for them to make a case that they should review each and every forum before it was added by CM. And if you think we're slow now.... =)
Oh come on. That's hyperbole if I've ever seen it!
Compared to the sheer mindless fan-boy-ishness of some of these posts? Hardly. Very few people here are accusing WotC of "being evil," but rather of taking sudden and somewhat disruptive action and refusing to explain it in a timely manner... which is not evil, but still rather ungentlemanly. "It's my house," is not a sufficiently civil explanation in such a case.
Also, I'd like to point out that nobody was "sneaking off" into that room. They were freely invited to go in there for the express purpose of doing those things away from the rest of the crowd. The major complaint now is that many people had left their hats and coats and such in there, and the hosts have refused to go to the trouble of bringing all of them out.
Now, in this particular case, I can see how that is an acceptable position for them to take. They have gotten most of the important articles out of there, and now they need to get back to hosting. However, if you're one of the guests whose purse was left behind, it's not exactly out of bounds for you to be a little huffy about that.
I wonder if the Mature forum (as it is now) could be locked and hidden once Z and A_S have gone through and decided on places for all the threads. Then, a couple of threads a day could be moved to the proper forums for it. That way, the threads are eventually moved, and the WizOs/VCLs aren't overwhelmed.
At this stage, I've moved over everything that has been active in the past 30 days (which was page 1 and 2 and part of 3). Other topics that are worth discussion can be started as new topics in the appropriate area. While I realize this isn't ideal, it's a tough situation all around and we need to make the best of it and move forward.
You are making hyperbole-laden accusations and showing selfish bias here.
No:
I suspect the management very seriously considered the consequences. And the whining complaints of a very small number of people is not exactly a huge consequence in comparison to what is far more likely to be a legal department description of the potential consequences.
Not whining, but they are complaints. They're complaints that are fully warranted because of the way this was handled.
While seeking your opinion or my opinion on a matter might be considered polite, it is not necessary.
You could argue that doing only the bare necessities is not enough. What they did here was undeniably rude, and just because they don't legally have to explain it, the rule of basic courtesy demands it.
Although individual members of these Boards may make the expectation of civility futile, the expectation that members post with civility is neither hypocritical nor without merit.
It is when the one who makes the rules sees fit to ignore them.
Although some members may feel posting rudely can be justified, such justification is often a rationalization for what can best be described as a deficiency in character.
I'm saying that it's fully understandable. It's the very essence of human (and animal) nature to react badly when something they took for granted gets taken away. Whether they deserve it or not is completely beside the point because we're dealing with an emotional response here.
So if Community Management decides to pull a forum that had devoted regulars without notifying anyone, then being surprised when someone starts yelling is showing an astounding lack of empathy, or at least the ability to appreciate said response (because they're humans too; chances are they'd react just as badly if it happened to them).
Not whining, but they are complaints. They're complaints that are fully warranted because of the way this was handled.
Complaints are fine. A complaint is the expression of dissatisfaction with a product, decision, policy, or practice. Complaints are perfectly warranted.
Complaints become whining when they are offered by the same people repeatedly. They becomes rude when they are offered with insults.
I'm saying that it's fully understandable. It's the very essence of human (and animal) nature to react badly when something they took for granted gets taken away. Whether they deserve it or not is completely beside the point because we're dealing with an emotional response here.
While becoming rude is understandable, that does not make it acceptable.
I can empathize with the frustration folks have had and are having with CM practice. However, whereas most of the frustrated folks offer their complaint and move on, a few folks are predictably at the center of every complaint. The number of active members of the Boards is well over 10,000. The number of active complainers is less than 10.
Although I am understand the frustration some folks are having, I will not lower my expectation that civility is the norm, and rudeness is not acceptable.
After we went in and reviewed some of the threads in that forum, it became clear that we needed to close it down right away. There was definite concern on what others internally might have thought if they read some of the threads in that forum, and our ability to explain why we were letting it remain open. Waiting for someone else to tell us it needed to be closed would have opened the door for them to make a case that they should review each and every forum before it was added by CM.
I can understand (I suppose) why you had to move quickly in the end. My point, though, is that you knew quite some time ago that the arguments in favor of keeping the forum alive weren't going to persuade you. At that point in time, it would've been nice for you to seek the input of the forum leads and VCL for the area so we could arrange for as smooth a transition as possible.
Aside from that, your post very much looks like a "throw out the baby with the bath water" style of argument. *shrug*
And if you think we're slow now.... =)
No comment... ;)
At that point in time, it would've been nice for you to seek the input of the forum leads and VCL for the area so we could arrange for as smooth a transition as possible.
Haven't you figured out yet that the entire VCL and forum lead thing is pretty much just a crock?
TMK, all of the actual VCL positions were given to civilian accounts of the ex-WizO's, and the Forum Leads have zero power to do anything.
So, while it looks on the outside as if the power is being put in the hands of the people, it isn't. The management is still going to do whatever they want, they aren't going to consult any of us before doing it, and thats pretty much it.
Thats why I dropped out of the whole VCL program. It became painfully obvious that it was nothing but a sham.
And once again, some sort of clarity on this would've been very useful beforehand. That is why I specifically asked if this was ok to do before I started because I didn't want to waste time on a project that would go nowhere. To shut it all down is making me feel like I've wasted time, energy and effort. Especially when it still follows the guidelines you've set Mike.
And once again, some sort of clarity on this would've been very useful beforehand. That is why I specifically asked if this was ok to do before I started because I didn't want to waste time on a project that would go nowhere. To shut it all down is making me feel like I've wasted time, energy and effort. Especially when it still follows the guidelines you've set Mike.
I feel the same way here. Once the greenlight was given to move those threads, I set aside time last night to start going through and requesting the moves. There's other things I could've spent that time on, had I known -- other forum-related projects, paid writing, "for fun" writing, playing WoW, reading, etc.
It's not a complaint- but Mike, I'm just hoping that communication can be more clear in the future. When you are relying on a volunteer work force, a little respect for our time shouldn't be too much to ask.
Complaints are fine. A complaint is the expression of dissatisfaction with a product, decision, policy, or practice. Complaints are perfectly warranted.
Complaints become whining when they are offered by the same people repeatedly. They becomes rude when they are offered with insults.
They are still perfectly valid. Part of running a forum -- not to mention any operation that has to do with communicating with people in general -- adequately, is being able to divorce yourself from whatever harsh words may be included in complaints and criticisms. People get upset. That's the basic rule in human relations like this. It's not your fault, and they probably don't mean anything by it, so instead of focusing on the bad parts, you ignore them. Completely. Telling people that they're being rude or loud will only make them more rude and more loud.
Alyss was upset.
I can empathize with the frustration folks have had and are having with CM practice. However, whereas most of the frustrated folks offer their complaint and move on, a few folks are predictably at the center of every complaint. The number of active members of the Boards is well over 10,000. The number of active complainers is less than 10.
I can tell you why that is right now: Because the active complainers are the only ones affected, and they're affected negatively. I don't think I need to tell you that this will look awfully much like targeting and an attack to the group that is affected.
Although I am understand the frustration some folks are having, I will not lower my expectation that civility is the norm, and rudeness is not acceptable.
When Gamer_Zer0 decided to pull this stunt he forewent any "right" to be treated with courtesy. In this case, civility was not to be expected because of how loyal some of the Mature topics regulars are to the forum, and when someone doesn't adhere to the standard they themselves have set, they are in no position to tell anyone what is acceptable and what isn't. Not even if they own the place. They might learn this the hard way if they decide to give any of the critics a warning that is remotely related to this issue.
Also, he's working with other humans. He should not only have expected it to happen with what he was about to do, he should have been ready to deal with it in a professional manner (Professional =/= what he's been doing in this thread, including doing a "LOL, whoopsie
" post).Just so you know, I've worked and am working directly with other people. With that in mind I feel like your posts are somewhat wishful in nature. You have reasonable expectations and ideas, but all of that falls completely apart because of how fickle and sensitive people can be. Ideally, you should be able to tell someone that they're acting like a clown and have them get themselves together, but it turns out that this is the number one reason for assaults on waiters in restaurants (guy gets drunk, guy starts dancing, waiter tries to step in, waiter gets lights put out).
it turns out that this is the number one reason for assaults on waiters in restaurants (guy gets drunk, guy starts dancing, waiter tries to step in, waiter gets lights put out).
And the drunk dancing punching guy gets arrested.
On the forums, the (maximum) penalty ends up being a screen name ban.
Haven't you figured out yet that the entire VCL and forum lead thing is pretty much just a crock?
TMK, all of the actual VCL positions were given to civilian accounts of the ex-WizO's, and the Forum Leads have zero power to do anything.
So, while it looks on the outside as if the power is being put in the hands of the people, it isn't. The management is still going to do whatever they want, they aren't going to consult any of us before doing it, and thats pretty much it.
Thats why I dropped out of the whole VCL program. It became painfully obvious that it was nothing but a sham.
Pretty bold accusations. Prooves, do you have?
I can tell you why that is right now: Because the active complainers are the only ones affected,
No, they are not the only ones affected.
- I'm affected, and I'm not an active complainer.
- Zherog is also affected, and while he has lodged a complaint (more than one even), the manner in which he lodges them does not draw down the label of "complainer".
- Alyss also lodged a complaint. And while it was an emotional one, it was not incessant, ranty, continuous, and repeated. Nor has Alyss been at the center of a long string of complaints. Nor has Alyss continued the complaint after we were asked to keep it civil.
- You have lodged more than one complaint in the recent past. But you have done so in a manner that is both civil and appropriate.
Plenty of folks are affected. Some lodge a complaint. Some lodge more than one complaint. And a very small handful of folks cross the line from complaining (the verb) to being a complainer (the noun).
When Gamer_Zer0 decided to pull this stunt he forewent any "right" to be treated with courtesy.
Nobody loses the right to be treated with courtesy. By their actions, they can easily forego their right to be viewed as courteous.
I do not view Mike as courteous. He has made plenty of avoidable public relations screw ups since Day One. His replies to many requests for explanation have made it clear that courtesy and empathy are not his strong points.
But what he is (or is not) does not change the expectations and standards we as members should hold other members to.
I do not view Mike as courteous. He has made plenty of avoidable public relations screw ups since Day One. His replies to many requests for explanation have made it clear that courtesy and empathy are not his strong points.
For once we agree on something.
However, Mike must understand one very basic rule: treat others as you would like to be treated. As he has been anything but kind to us, why should we in turn show him any respect?
Take the thread that got the Mature Forums the insta-axe. It was pointed out quite clearly that the mature forums needed to close down instantly.
I think we all know which thread it was. Someone with an account there should really mention the threaed starter on the "creepiest gamer" thread on rpg.net.
For once we agree on something.
However, Mike must understand one very basic rule: treat others as you would like to be treated. As he has been anything but kind to us, why should we in turn show him any respect?
Because we're the better man (or woman, as the case may be)?
why should we in turn show him any respect?
You have answered your own question with your premise:
one very basic rule: treat others as you would like to be treated.