Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pschirf Sep 28, 2008 13:31:22	I recently tried to start a DM discussion thread about the Scepter Tower of Spellgard as a general product. Does anyone want to review this product? So far, the only comment I've seen is "utilitarian".
#2 aberzanzorax Sep 28, 2008 15:55:03	So, my question is: Where should reviews/etc be occurring about Adventures like this? Is DM conversation being forced into setting specific boards if the published Adventure happens to be tied to that setting? That would make no sense if their design philosophy is, as they've stated, everything is core.
#3 wrecan Sep 28, 2008 16:08:29	Setting book saren't core. Discuss it in the appropriate Forgotten Realms forum. Alternately, discuss it in the General Board.
#4 pschirf Sep 28, 2008 17:59:43	Setting book saren't core. Discuss it in the appropriate Forgotten Realms forum. I'd agree if this was a "Setting Book", like one of the Campaign hardcovers, but it's an adventure. WotC isn't even marketing it toward FR DMs! The Forgotten Realms logo (or name) isn't on the front or spine of the cover, and the FR logo on the back is actually smaller than the D&D Insider logo. Moving a review thread of the product to a setting specific board seems strange. I'd think it would be more appropriate on the board you manage, wrecan. Surely a review of an adventure falls under "Give or receive help on adventure planning", which is in the "What's a DM to Do?" forum description.
#5 wrecan Sep 28, 2008 18:40:39	I'd agree if this was a "Setting Book", like one of the Campaign hardcovers, but it's an adventure. WotC isn't even marketing it toward FR DMs! I'm sorry. Were you looking for a forum to discuss a product or the marketing of that product? Surely a review of an adventure falls under "Give or receive help on adventure planning", which is in the "What's a DM to Do?" forum description. Using a pre-produced adventure doesn't involve "planning". Planning is for tailoring adventures to specific parties. Reviews don't belong in WaDMtD? Traditionally, they have always been in General Discussion or an applicable subsection.
#6 pschirf Sep 28, 2008 19:08:34	I'm sorry. Were you looking for a forum to discuss a product or the marketing of that product? Maybe I was just hoping to find an ounce of common sense and not a snide remark? Using a pre-produced adventure doesn't involve "planning". I hope most DMs plan a lot when they introduce pre-produced material to their worlds. Reviews don't belong in WaDMtD Traditionally, they have always been in General Discussion or an applicable subsection. Putting spoilers into the General Discussion board seems inappropriate. An in-depth review of an Adventure is only appropriate for a DM specific area. Oh well, I'll just have to look elsewhere for DMs who talk about products without having to throw the discussion into a setting specific board. I'm too old for this place, I guess.
#7 wrecan Sep 28, 2008 19:35:02	Maybe I was just hoping to find an ounce of common sense and not a snide remark? It was a sincere question. You asked where reviews go and when I talk about it you go on a tirade about how the marketing of the product is substandard. So it was reasonable to ask if that's really what you want to talk about. Any snideness is found entirely in your head. I hope most DMs plan a lot when they introduce pre-produced material to their worlds. If your topic was going to be "Help me tailor this product to my specific players", post it in WaDMtD?. But you were discussing a general review of a product. That doesn't fall under "planning" and thus doesn't belong in WaDMtD?. Putting spoilers into the General Discussion board seems inappropriate. An in-depth review of an Adventure is only appropriate for a DM specific area. No, it isn't. General Discussion is the place to post it and has been since I started lurking these boards in 2003 (though I didn't join until 2005). Oh well, I'll just have to look elsewhere for DMs who talk about products without having to throw the discussion into a setting specific board. That "elsewhere" is the General Boards which is not setting specific. You got your answer. It meets all your stated criteria. DMs post in the General Board you know. I'm too old for this place, I guess. What does age have to do with it?! I'm going to guess I've been playing D&D at least as long as you have. Don't try to cite your grognardism as the reason you aren't willing to take the advice you seek.
#8 pschirf Sep 28, 2008 19:44:50	It was a sincere question. You asked where reviews go and when I talk about it you go on a tirade about how the marketing of the product is substandard. That's not what I said at all. I pointed out that while the adventure is "set" in the Forgotten Realms, the Forgotten Realms logo isn't on the front of the product or the side of the product. Pushing a review of the product into a "Running the Realms" setting specific board seems to be opposite to approach desired by the company, given their decision to not closely tie the product to that setting in the product packaging. General Discussion is the place to post it and has been since I started lurking these boards in 2003 (though I didn't join until 2005). Funny, since that's where I started the thread in the first place. It was moved out of the General Discussion forum by a board mod. Want to move it back there for me?
#9 wrecan Sep 28, 2008 20:01:30	No, because it was determined that since the product is specific to the Realms it belongs in a Realms forum, which it is, even though your analysis of the marketing of the product indicates to you it isn't a FR-product. In fact, the Product Page specifically states "A Forgotten Realms adventure for 2nd-level characters." (It's also what the "FR" in "FR1" stands for -- the first Forgotten Realms adventure for 4E.) So, contrary to your assertion, it's not a general product -- it's a FR product and should be discussed in the FR forums. I was merely stating that, assuming your analysis of its generic-ness was correct -- reviews should be in the General Discussion forum. So to sum up: If the product is specific to a product line, discuss it in the forums for that product line. If the product is not specific to a product line, discuss it in 4E General Discussion (or Previous Editions General if it is not a 4E product). If you need help narrowly tailoring a product to your specific playing group, post your question in WaDMtD? See? Pretty simple.
#10 pschirf Sep 28, 2008 20:06:39	That would make no sense if their design philosophy is, as they've stated, everything is core. Oh well.
#11 wrecan Sep 28, 2008 20:30:52	Aberzanzorax has overstated the philosophy. In Third Edition, there were three categories of books. The three Corebooks, non-core generic books and setting-specific books. All 4th has done is to combine the first two categories as "core". Setting-specific books have never been -- and still are not -- core.
#12 pschirf Sep 28, 2008 20:48:52	Aberzanzorax has overstated the philosophy. In Third Edition, there were three categories of books. The three Corebooks, non-core generic books and setting-specific books. All 4th has done is to combine the first two categories as "core". Setting-specific books have never been -- and still are not -- core. And Adventures, while "setting specific" in a sense, are not being plastered with their setting logos. I think the company understands that doing so doesn't help sell the product. Forcing discussion of an adventure into a setting specific forum is, in my opinion, a mistake that wouldn't be made by the company.
#13 kistra Sep 28, 2008 20:55:47	And Adventures, while "setting specific" in a sense, are not being plastered with their setting logos. I think the company understands that doing so doesn't help sell the product. Forcing discussion of an adventure into a setting specific forum is, in my opinion, a mistake that wouldn't be made by the company. Is it possible that you will find a lot more DMs who are running that adventure in the Forgotten Realms section since that is where it is set? Maybe they were trying to help you get the most helpful responses when they suggested moving it.
#14 pschirf Sep 28, 2008 20:58:04	Is it possible that you will find a lot more DMs who are running that adventure in the Forgotten Realms section since that is where it is set? Maybe they were trying to help you get the most helpful responses when they suggested moving it. And conversely, if I were to write a review and put it into the general forum, it would be moved to the Running the Realms forum for the same reason? No, I don't buy the "trying to help" angle at all. Again, I'd bet that the people who decided to not put the Forgotten Realms logo on the front of the adventure wouldn't be taking the same side as the board mods on this. I've now purchased the module, and run a part of it. I'll write my review elsewhere. I like 4e. I started playing white-box edition, and have enjoyed seeing the game evolve for more than 30 years. I just have a lower tolerance these days... that's why I mentioned the age thing. I fear that, while I love the game, and have a great group which includes co-workers and my wife, I get frustrated more and more as I get older. When I encounter people making the game less accessible rather than more accessible because of their interpretation of the rules it's disheartening, especially when it's not even game rules causing this, but "board rules".
#15 aberzanzorax Sep 29, 2008 13:00:53	So for Keep on the Shadowfell there were setting specific adaptation notes in Dungeon. I'd imagine the most appropriate place for this general adventure would be in the What's a DM to Do section and that those using this general adventure with those notes should talk about it in the setting most appropriate (ebberon or FR). Same should apply here. Those using a setting specific adventure in a general way should go to the general forum. Those using it in a world specific way (FR or eberron) should go to that forum. If I wanted to adapt a FR adventure to Eberron (including Scepter Tower of Spellguard), would I still have to post it in the FR forum? No, right? I could post under Eberron. Well, why does someone have to post an adventure they want to use generally in the FR forum? I really doubt WotC only wants people running FR to buy this adventure. I may have overstated the "everything is core" but I think Wrecan might be overlimiting it. Setting specific adventures can be used generally. There are frequently adaptation notes, and often in the adventure it says "though this is a campaign specific adventure, with a little adaptation it can be used in any setting". I think that points to general usage unless the richness of the setting is intended to be integrated (actual places mattering, characters from that setting showing up, regional politics from that setting coming into play, etc).
#16 wrecan Sep 29, 2008 13:13:51	I'd imagine the most appropriate place for this general adventure would be in the What's a DM to Do section No product reviews are to be place din WaDMtD?. That's not what the section is for. If you want to tailor any product to a specifi play group, the DM is more than welcome to post it there. but general reviews (which is what PSchirf discusses) goes in General Discussion (for non-setting specific products) or the setting forum for setting-specific products. Those using a setting specific adventure in a general way should go to the general forum. If his article was intended on making a FR adventure usable in a generic setting (i.e., de-Realmizing the product), I would agree. But I didn't get the idea that's what his article was. It was soliciting a review of the product as written, which would mean as a FR product. I may have overstated the "everything is core" but I think Wrecan might be overlimiting it. Setting specific adventures can be used generally. You can adapt what you like, but "core" refers to what is non-setting specific. That makes this thing kind of definitional. By definition, FR1 is not core. The forums are concerned with discussions and the topics thereof. A discussion of a FR-specific product goes into a forum about FR-specific products. If you want to discuss adapting FR-specific products to other genres, then, yes, the forum about that genre would be appropriate. But my reading of PSchirf's thread did not mention he wanted to deemphasize the Forgotten Realms aspects of the product. He solicited a review of a FR product, but asked for it in the wrong place (a non-FR forum). I think PSchirf is overreacting to having his thread moved.
#17 aberzanzorax Sep 29, 2008 13:49:07	Wrecan, all very good points.
#18 seTiny Sep 29, 2008 14:00:41	but general reviews (which is what PSchirf discusses) goes in General Discussion (for non-setting specific products) or the setting forum for setting-specific products. Except it is an adventure. Thus it is more appropriate in the Campaign and Adventure forum than General Discussion. Other than that, I would say that LK made the correct call given the lack of information in the first post. If it had been more clear that the thread in question was looking for non-FR advice, then it should have been moved to the Adventures forum. However the first post did not have this information and the product was a FR product. Therefore it seems to fit better in the FR forums. Now just because it is a FR specific product does not mean that it should automatically be sent to FR. Had it been placed in the Adventures forum, instead of General it could have stayed.