http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1003657
Nearly every post in this thread violates the CoC. Nothing was done until the OP asked it be closed. Why? In the past, this would have been closed or moderated. Instead, it is allowed to continue. Note this is only indicitive of what is happening in the 4e forums right now.
More:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=990063
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1003487
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1000071
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1002286
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=996865
Additionally, the forum leads are supposed to move off topic threads. Why was this done? More importantly, why was this not announced in the forums? Why is there no guidelines for who to contact listed in in each subforum?
To summarize, I have to ask: is the workload that bad that there is such a marked downswing in moderation? What can be done to mitigate this?
Additionally, the forum leads are supposed to move off topic threads. Why was this done? More importantly, why was this not announced in the forums?
It was announced. And stickied:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=964380
For more information on FLs and VCLs- http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=725
Did anyone report the thread?
Many times this doesn't work, as a link to the customer service is usually provided and nothing else happens.
And when you email customer service, they don't provide answers besides generic ones and fail to do anything except threaten the status of your account.
This is a really great system. Drive-by modding or inept responses from Customer Service.
Many times this doesn't work, as a link to the customer service is usually provided and nothing else happens.
And when you email customer service, they don't provide answers besides generic ones and fail to do anything except threaten the status of your account.
This is a really great system. Drive-by modding or inept responses from Customer Service.
Did you try the "report this post" button in the top right hand corner of each post on a thread? It looks like a white triangle with a red border. I use that one occasionally, and I have gotten very good, prompt results. It opens a dialogue box that lets you type in your complaint about a disruptive post. I think it sends a message that any moderator can see, and they usually act on them immediately.
Did you try the "report this post" button in the top right hand corner of each post on a thread?
It can also be found at the bottom left, depending on your settings.
I think it sends a message that any moderator can see, and they usually act on them immediately.
Even better, it sends a message to the moderator on duty at that moment.
Nearly every post in this thread violates the CoC. Nothing was done until the OP asked it be closed. Why? In the past, this would have been closed or moderated. Instead, it is allowed to continue. Note this is only indicitive of what is happening in the 4e forums right now.
Are you reporting posts that violate the CoC?? If you do, I guarantee that the WizO on duty will come look at the post. The more info that you give in the report box, the better.
I know I reported the thread, spoke to the WizO that looked at it *and* made a comment to the 4E VCL about the thread.
To summarize, I have to ask: is the workload that bad that there is such a marked downswing in moderation? What can be done to mitigate this?
There are so many posts, it is impossible for WizOs to read each and every one of them. If you see a post that violates the CoC, or that you think violates the CoC, report it. If you report it, they are guaranteed to see it. If you don't, you are hoping that they stumble upon it.
What disappoints me is that the first post was obviously inflammatory and extremely insulting but the only apparent moderation was an in-thread warning not to attack people.
No editing of the offensive insults. No locking of an obviously trolling post. In fact, the OP went on to continue trolling the same topic into two more threads, one of which (granted, tamer in nature) still continues!
My problem isn't with the lack of moderator response or the speed of the response, but with the level of response.
The post was highly insulting not only to a member of these boards, but also to their spouse and the friends he games with. The post also used at least one term that I know many posters (myself included) find highly offensive.
How are we supposed to feel as a community when a post that was clearly designed to invite negative response (i.e. trolling) only received a "Hey, guys, play nice" warning instead of being locked and deleted? Why was the highly offensive post allowed to remain instead of being edited or deleted? Why wasn't the thread locked before the OP requested it so he could ply his trolling trade elsewhere?
If we can't count on our WizO's, FL's and VCL's to handle something so egregious and obvious, what can we count on them for?
It's locked. The dead horse you are beating is still dead.
The point is that it should have been locked because of its offensive and trolling nature. Not because the OP said "I'm done trolling here, maybe I'll go troll somewhere else."
In fact, the original post (if not the entire thread) should have been deleted instead of being allowed to remain on the boards as a testament to the OP's trolling and flaming skills.
The horse may be dead, but that's no reason for the WizO's to leave its rotting corpse in the middle of Main Street for everyone to see.
The horse may be dead, but that's no reason for the WizO's to leave its rotting corpse in the middle of Main Street for everyone to see.
54 threads deep (page 3 for me) is hardly the middle of the street, much less anywhere near Main Street.
Locked threads fade away on their own.
Locked threads fade away on their own.
It shouldn't have to, though. The WizO's should have deleted it when it was first reported.
I am not saying something needs to be done, I am saying something should have been done in the first place.
I'm not asking for action to be taken, I'm asking why action never took place, or why the action that did take place was insufficient.
It shouldn't have to, though. The WizO's should have deleted it when it was first reported.
It didn't need to be deleted, only locked. Anyone with a rational mind who read that thread would have realized right away that the post is in no way indicative of the general state of mind of the forums. The OP was quite clearly a troll post, yet, despite that, it is very clearly on-topic for the 4E C&C forum. That is why it was locked, a second, "trolly" one was deleted, and why the third one was allowed to continue.
I am not saying something needs to be done, I am saying something should have been done in the first place.
It was, the thread locked, a second one deleted, and, more than likely, the OP warned to watch what they say and how they say it.
I'm not asking for action to be taken, I'm asking why action never took place, or why the action that did take place was insufficient.
Action did take place. You just don't like the decision made.
Have you asked the WizO who locked the thread why they only locked it and didn't delete it?? You might get an answer. If you don't, PM me and let me know and I will see what I can find out.
http://wizards.custhelp.com/
I've been reading the forums for a couple weeks now and this is the first I've seen them posting.
They all just recover from DDXP?
Cheers
It didn't need to be deleted, only locked. Anyone with a rational mind who read that thread would have realized right away that the post is in no way indicative of the general state of mind of the forums. The OP was quite clearly a troll post, yet, despite that, it is very clearly on-topic for the 4E C&C forum. That is why it was locked, a second, "trolly" one was deleted, and why the third one was allowed to continue.
That seems to happen a lot over there. Multiple times a day. After being started by the same person. Who is still here and still happily jokes about how hard he's trolling the board. A full page got deleted off a thread last night because of him in fact.
Which brings me to another thing: When people admit to being trolls or to harassing people or to being back from the banned (which is explicitly stated as a violation to the revolving door banning system here), those parts of the post are deleted by Wizos with no further action or involvement. All this seems to do is remove any sort of paper trail that can be pointed to later by normal posters who can't see the edit histories when referring Wizos to repeat offenders in reports.
I went and tried to link to all the creator of the offending posts references to being a troll and trolling in my last report on his trolling only to find that every one of them had been edited out by a Wizo.
I got lucky in rooting up one of the harassment threats another of our 'unruly' posters made, but not by much. Many of those were gone too.
I would understand this timidity to ban if banning had any real consequences here, but people come back from the banned the very same day here. Repeatedly. Whether for minor offenses or for long, unchecked trolling sprees that these guys *aren't* being banned for.
This is getting rediculous; we've got people trolling in the What's a Player to Do board and I've reported the thread TWICE and nothing has happened beyond a WizO giving a brief 'Stop trolling the troll' warning. The trolling continues and the thread has yet to be closed. Come on.
Also -- which thread in What's a Player to Do?
Got to say that I agree with what Vaal posted above.
This is getting rediculous; we've got people trolling in the What's a Player to Do board and I've reported the thread TWICE and nothing has happened beyond a WizO giving a brief 'Stop trolling the troll' warning. The trolling continues and the thread has yet to be closed. Come on.
You could try e-mailing customer service.
I'm not sure it will help, but it might.
Also -- which thread in What's a Player to Do?
Am I a powergamer?
Am I a powergamer?
That'd be the one.
As Forum Lead for What's a Player to Do? I've requested the thread get locked. My suggestions, however, do not have to be followed so we'll see what happens, I guess.
As Forum Lead for What's a Player to Do? I've requested the thread get locked. My suggestions, however, do not have to be followed so we'll see what happens, I guess.
Thanks much for putting a word in Zherog. Looks like it got the job done.
In my opinion, you should also continue to report every post in those threads that you believe violates the CoC.
As Forum Lead for What's a Player to Do? I've requested the thread get locked. My suggestions, however, do not have to be followed so we'll see what happens, I guess.
I honestly haven't seen the request- was it posted on the Gleemax D&D/4e request thread?
Edit: Nevermind, I just saw it posted today.
Yes, I would have put in to have it closed. If it's a CoC violation, the WizOs can handle it.So... would it help if we over on the 4e concerns board started asking mudbunny (I think he's the lead there) to inreceed on our behalf? At least three of the really bad ones there have gotten just ridiculous and people are starting to theorize that the C&C forum is just there to contain the trolls.
It would help.
Many times, threads only disintegrate into flaming or trolling by the second or third page. With the volume of posts that the C&C forums get, it is very difficult (read - impossible) for me to read each and every post. I catch quite a few (I report a couple of posts a day at least), but I do miss some.
I honestly haven't seen the request- was it posted on the Gleemax D&D/4e request thread?
I assumed posting it where I was told to was the best way to let you know about it. :P :P Is there some other way I'm supposed to let you know?
Edit: Nevermind, I just saw it posted today.
Reading it after Mimir posted the link, I was quite surprised the thread was still open; and I was even more surprised at things that were allowed to remain - like calling somebody a douche.
Is this sort of thing a problem caused by CM's desire to split conduct moderation and editorial moderation? Or did this thread just fall through the cracks somehow?
Jeez, it's still in other people's quotes!
I think I liked it better when we had the revolving door of sock puppets rather than apparently nothing resulting in disciplinary action.
Seriously, there are so many people that need to be permanently banned (some might set up proxies but not everyone knows how to do that). And the best part is that I got a soft warning for criticizing a Gnome fanatic who insulted millions of people in one sweeping statement.
It's a joke and I'm not laughing.
So how about you WizOs clean up the C&C board like you cleaned the Mature Topics last October? That was so awesome, seeing the problem posters being picked one by one and banned or warned, having their posts deleted and their protests falling on deaf ears. You need to do that, if only for amusement (don't tell me you don't get a sense of satsifaction from doing it).
Jeez, it's still in other people's quotes!
.
I've suggested that warnings issued to people who quote and leave the obvious CoC violations.
People need to be responsible for what they post.
Again, WizOs don't do editorial moderation.
I've suggested that warnings issued to people who quote and leave the obvious CoC violations.
People need to be responsible for what they post.
That's not fair. People quoting CoC infractions are doing exactly that, quoting. They are not responsible for what other people write, nor is it their duty to take any piece of text out of context, as editing such things will often do. In fact, that's unethical arguing.
Again, WizOs don't do editorial moderation.
Yeah, they do. Ever seen posts that look fine and dandy and then comes that "" that makes you lose track of what was being said? Then at the bottom of the post it says "Last edited by: WizO_LOLbuttz" (a fictional WizO that is awesome and bans people for being stupid)?
If you haven't, they still exist.
I've suggested that warnings issued to people who quote and leave the obvious CoC violations.
People need to be responsible for what they post.
Again, WizOs don't do editorial moderation.
Uh... the fact that they're *doing* editorial moderation is the problem I'm talking about. On the thread in question, the Wizo quietly went in and edited out the comment and comments in response to it, but missed some of the quotes. But then they did nothing else. Yeah, I've gotten used to the complete lack of pointing out specific violations, but this lacked even the vague, sweeping 'lets all get along, even though I'm not going to tell you what specifically prompted me to say this' posts that the Wizos usually use, presumably as per some corporate policy the misses the point entirely.
As for missing something that had been quoted farther down the page, it happens. WizOs are human and miss things. People should not quote posts that are Code of Conduct violations.
Report it again.
If you see a Code of Conduct violation, please report it using the Report Post button. WizOs don't exactly go looking for violations. The forums are too large. We rely on posters to let us know when they see something that shouldn't be here.
As for missing something that had been quoted farther down the page, it happens. WizOs are human and miss things. People should not quote posts that are Code of Conduct violations.
Report it again.
However, it should be noted that if it is a WizO who is committing the CoC violation, you cannot report it in a standard method - you have to go to the Ask Wizards section.
Although they say this is for fairness, I suspect it is simply to make it less desirable to report them, as it is a significant hassle to go about reporting them in that manner. Not to mention the simple fact that in most cases, you will get in trouble, not the WizO.
However, it should be noted that if it is a WizO who is committing the CoC violation, you cannot report it in a standard method - you have to go to the Ask Wizards section.
Although they say this is for fairness, I suspect it is simply to make it less desirable to report them, as it is a significant hassle to go about reporting them in that manner. Not to mention the simple fact that in most cases, you will get in trouble, not the WizO.
Or to filter out biaised/interested false accusations of CoC breaking on Wotc? Because it's not like it have never happened...
What exactly is the point of community management if the community's pleas for management of its biggest problems go unheeded? There are at least a dozen threads in the 4e C&C board alone where people are begging for someone to do something about this and the *problem posters* are admitting that they're here to cause trouble. Reporting doesn't do anything but a) get the thread locked and b) getting Wizo posts that amount to 'be nice to the people trying their level best to antagonize and spread lies, by the way, I've pointed this out to a group that doesn't seem to actually do anything other than delete threads'.
I've sent emails to the leads, with no reply and no action. I've called cust serv and basically got the brush off. What's the next step? Organizing posters to flood the moderators' boxes whenever a *problem poster* tries something in hopes that something is done purely to alleviate the server load?
I'm beginning to feel pretty alienated by this board. It's like there's a hoard of 4chan escapees running roughshod all over the place and each poster is on their own because no one's going to help them, no one's going to deal with the problem and if someone gives advice, it's something that didn't work the first hundred times or sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending it isn't happening. The solution to someone being a problem to the boards at large is not for *me* to close my eyes.
And "Report it again" is the exact method that has shown itself to fail time and time again. It's time to delete ****ing everything and ban ****ing everyone. For serious.
Oh and Vaal, some of those guys ARE 4chan escapees...The wizards board has been popular with channers for a while (not that they'll admit it). Why do you think the Mature Boards suddenly had mass nudity at one point?
Of course, being that the WizOs have never had the proper training to be able to actually handle the authority they've been given (to tell the difference between a protest/expression of dissatisfaction and plain vandalism, for example) and sometimes forget what the hell they're supposed to do (facilitating and serving the community), they might just see this as a group of trolls and make an example of them.
Actually, the WizOs are VERY well trained. As you've just registered in Oct of 2007, you might not be aware the WizO team has been around for a very long time. The WizOs that are still on the team aren't new either.
The problem is between deciding what's editorial moderating and what's conduct moderating. "I don't like 4e!" From that statement alone, can you tell if it's a troll?
And who's to say the trolls have NOT been getting warnings? The WizOs generally don't instantly ban someone. They give people a chance to be productive members of the community. Just because someone is still here doesn't mean they didn't get a warning.
I keep seeing the point that these are "self admitted trolls". I haven't seen any such posts.
Clicking the report button is NOT an automatic "I Win" button to get someone banned that you don't agree with.
... you might not be aware the WizO team has been around for a very long time. The WizOs that are still on the team aren't new either.
Well, except for WizO_Kyuubi, who only became a WizO three days ago. ;)
Actually, the WizOs are VERY well trained. As you've just registered in Oct of 2007
Try June 2005.
The problem is between deciding what's editorial moderating and what's conduct moderating. "I don't like 4e!" From that statement alone, can you tell if it's a troll?
The fact that they admit it tells me they're trolls.
And who's to say the trolls have NOT been getting warnings? The WizOs generally don't instantly ban someone. They give people a chance to be productive members of the community. Just because someone is still here doesn't mean they didn't get a warning.
Thing is, they don't want to be productive members of the community.
I keep seeing the point that these are "self admitted trolls". I haven't seen any such posts.
The fact that you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist.
I've sent emails to the leads, with no reply and no action. I've called cust serv and basically got the brush off. What's the next step?
I've talked to Cust. Service and they basically said, "If you send another complaint, we will ban you." I do not wish to discuss the circumstances, but that reaction was far overboard.
If this is how they react when being asked a question, then this forum is ultimately doomed.
Try June 2005.]
Ah, sorry. Your profile right there says "Join Date: Oct 2007"
Ah, sorry. Your profile right there says "Join Date: Oct 2007"
I got banned once and took some time off before re-registering. My previous ban confuses me to this day.
The problem is between deciding what's editorial moderating and what's conduct moderating. "I don't like 4e!" From that statement alone, can you tell if it's a troll?
It's not from that statement alone. It's from repeated harassment, from posting lists or people they intend to harass via email, from posting repeated threads that clearly and presently incite flamewars.
And who's to say the trolls have NOT been getting warnings? The WizOs generally don't instantly ban someone. They give people a chance to be productive members of the community. Just because someone is still here doesn't mean they didn't get a warning.
1) IF it's happening, the lack of transparency doesn't help matters.
2) It's doubtful that it is happening because if they got a warn even a tenth of the time that they started something, by the CoC, they would be GONE.
I keep seeing the point that these are "self admitted trolls". I haven't seen any such posts.
Because, as I said before, the mods edit them out. This being VBB, the other mods can see these edits, but we can't anymore. But it comes up all the time. The most memorable one of me, which I don't think actually was edited out, was "I'm actually pretty sure I will play [4e] but right now it's just so easy to start drama here" also (said many times) "You guys are just so easy to troll".
Of course, it wouldn't be a huge slog to find the ones that escaped notice if reporting those comments didn't result in a Wizo destroying the record of it. I guess it's our responsibility to take screenshots of every offensive post too? Because that's basically the only way to prove all those 'edited by Wizo_Whatever' notes aren't just for grammar.
And it's pretty obvious why: It's the same reason we have the splash screen -- lawyers. They're afraid that actually applying a lasting banhammer or publically saying 'hey, they specific action by *you* isn't cool is going o result in a frivolous lawsuit. Also, letting the war go on before the release, they hope will get it out of the community's system. But it won't, because this isn't getting it out of our system, this is a small (possibly VERY small) group of people purposefully causing trouble for kicks. And they're getting away with it because the only apparent recourse people have is to pretend it isn't happening.
I've sent emails to the leads, with no reply and no action.
Really?? Checks inbox
Just because you don't see the me (one of the 4E C&C FLs) trying to publicly spank posters (which would be against the CoC) doesn't mean I am not doing stuff.
Really?? Checks inbox
Mod lead, not board lead, sorry. I'm used to calling Doxxie the 'lead'.
Good job guys.
If I didn't have serious projects taking me through to the end of the month, I'd take the time to comb through the WotC/Hasbro corporate structure to find someone who will listen instead of stonewalling me like CustServ.
At least it lasted a week. Now we're back to square one with a bunch of 'mysterious' April joined posters (I tihnk we all know who they really are) inundating the boards with crap.
If I didn't have serious projects taking me through to the end of the month, I'd take the time to comb through the WotC/Hasbro corporate structure to find someone who will listen instead of stonewalling me like CustServ.
Have you been reporting threads with the report thread button??
Have you, in your posts that you are reporting, letting the WizOs know why you think a particular poster is a problem? Giving patterns of behavior, letting them know about large strings of offensive posts, that sort of thing?
Have you been PMing the FLs with posters/posts to look at so that we can collect the information and pass it along?
I've reported a thread recently and it was handled quickly.
I quoted multiple times from several posts. I stated why I thought each one was against the code of conduct.
The quote shows the part that I though was offensive, so the Mods wouldn't have to guess. Also my statement about the code of conduct violation means that the Mods wouldn't have to read my mind.
Have those that have been reporting these threads been this?
Alright,
I've reported a thread recently and it was handled quickly.
I quoted multiple times from several posts. I stated why I thought each one was against the code of conduct.
The quote shows the part that I though was offensive, so the Mods wouldn't have to guess. Also my statement about the code of conduct violation means that the Mods wouldn't have to read my mind.
Have those that have been reporting these threads been this?
At times I've had some pretty lengthy reports, yes. Once or twice they were long enough that I composed them in a text editor so I could see the whole thing, then copy/pasted into the message window. Other times, my reports are as simple as:
"This thread has profanity masking, second paragraph, first sentence. The post is also quoted later in the thread, so you'll need to hit those as well."
I've also had reports as simple as, "ZOMG! SPAM!!!1!!1!one!!" when one of those stupid
spambots manages to register and make a post.Basically, whenever I report a thread I assume the mod who handles it hasn't read anything in that thread prior to my report, so I give them the info necessary to make the best decision. Sometimes, what I'm reporting is as simple as profanity masking; sometimes, it's as involved as a passive/aggressive flame war that spans several dozen posts.
My opinion is pretty simple: if I'm going to take the time to report a post, I'm going to take the time necessary to give the moderator the info he/she needs to make an informed decision.
My opinion is pretty simple: if I'm going to take the time to report a post, I'm going to take the time necessary to give the moderator the info he/she needs to make an informed decision.
I was thinking that someone Mod of forum lead should put together a guide on how to properly report posts/threads. As it is in the complains we do not no it the complainer entered "Troll!!!" in the complaint field or properly detailed what exactly the problem is.
With a report guide/FAQ it should cut down on the chances of bad reports that don't tell anything useful.
I was going to start a thread on this, but I don't like to do much work. It would be nice of the forum lead(s) and WizO's to put one together.
Have you been reporting threads with the report thread button??
Have you, in your posts that you are reporting, letting the WizOs know why you think a particular poster is a problem? Giving patterns of behavior, letting them know about large strings of offensive posts, that sort of thing?
Have you been PMing the FLs with posters/posts to look at so that we can collect the information and pass it along?
I've taken to reporting posts with the number of the offending post. It *has* increased responsiveness (though not the huge blanket statement warnings in threads).
But it hit me that the problem is not a moderation problem. We have lots of mods and they do act quickly, albeit not particularly effectively when it comes to preventing repeats.
Not, the problem is the core policy itself. The CoC is the problem with its guarantees that there really is not penalty for breaking it as long as you don't care about losing your name and in specifically outlawing the honest posters' recourses in identifying and discussing trolls and sockpuppets. I've been an admin for three forums, a mod for five and this is quite simply the worst Code of Conduct I've ever seen in terms of actually maintaining a good community.
As it stands now, trolls get a free ride until enough people scream loud enough that they're dealt with -- at which point, they come back a day later with a new name and another free ride. We can't tell other posters what they're doing, we can't identify a baiting thread (which is extremely unlikely to get removed unless it specifically flames people) and we can't point out the nature of their posts or *we* get in trouble, usually far worse than the actual troll.
And before someone says 'how do you know they're a troll?', it's because it's like two people most of the time that are constant. Maybe a new contender will arrive to start one thread, or one post, but we *all* know exactly who the main perpetrators are -- they're not even clever with hiding it -- and know that the only thing complaining will do is make them change their name.
The policy that is in place right now, which I'm to understand that the mods and leads have no say over, is designed in such a way that the only way to avoid trolling is the either hope they get bored or simply leave the forums.
And since the policy is being made by someone higher up, the only way to get it fixed is to go higher up and the 'proper channel', CustServ is being as obstructionist as possible.
...the only way to avoid trolling is the either hope they get bored or simply leave the forums.
The best way to avoid trolling is to ignore it. Report it if it's disruptive; otherwise, mark the thread as already read and move on to the next one.
If you have no interest in a topic, don't post in the thread. It's that simple. It can't be a disruption if it doesn't get any responses.
Granted, an ignored topic sinks off the front page, BUT, this doens't mean the thread isn't clearly designed to be disruptive and shouldn't be dealt with. With this line of tihnking in place, it makes it look like it would be *worse* to post in a troll thread than to actually create one.
I do not think that we should be being told to hide our heads in the sand and give the outward appearance that this sort of thing is okay, even as lowly regular posters.
Unlike the sockpuppet problem, it is unclear if this is a moderation problem or a policy problem, though the fact that policy dictates an utter lack of transparency in diciplinary action, the idea that the posters should also hide thier dealings in PMs seems consistent.
Edit: Didn't see the above response.
I don't think this is good for anyone involved except the trolls. With no really banning in place, the only penalty is the natural forum self correction, which this stymies.
An as analogy (admittedly, a disjointed one), there are underage people who want to smoke cigarettes. (Call them trolls.) They can go into store after store after store asking clerks to sell them cigarettes. (Call that posting trolling threads.) You can call the cops all you want, but the cops can't arrest the kids for asking. However, if a clerk starts selling cigarettes to minors, that clerk will get busted. (Call that responding to trolling.)
Is it fair for the clerk to get busted? I think it is; if you know it's wrong, don't do it. (This applies to responding to trolls AND selling cigarettes to minors.)
Is it fair that the kids don't get punished? No, I don't think it is...but then again, the clerk knows better than to encourage the kids by giving them what they want.
This is where the analogy breaks down...because we DO deal with bona fide trollers, and underage smokers DON'T get arrested for smoking. But having clear, concrete evidence of the INTENT to troll is a lot more difficult to substantiate than a lit cigarette.
However, I will say that on a handful of occasions, I've seen a thread that was started with the obvious intention of trolling turn into an interesting on-topic discussion. It's rare, but it has happened.
The fact that there are bitter people who agree with and support the trolls is what forces people to respond.
That sounds disturbingly like a sanction to start troll threads...
I don't know what you mean by this.
Trolls will often include misinformation in their posts. A troll who states "You won' be able to play D&D unless you subscribe to the DDI" is trying to encouage a meme that reasonable people should know is not true. But if it sits there on WotC's forums without contradiction -- and in fact, is picked up by other trolls who agree, or by non-trolls who have a penchant for agreeing with people who agree with them -- then you're not just ignoring a troll, you're allowing a false meme to proliferate.
The "anti-4E" example is not intended to indicate that the trolls are all pro-4E. The example could just as easily have been the meme, "Paizo has been sending sock puppets into other forums to create bad feelings about 4E to drum up support for Pathfinder." That meme would be just as false, and failing to counter it would be to allow that to proliferate.
In the first case, every WizO knows the terms and conditions of Wizards of the Coast's existing applications, and when such a thread was reported, the WizO would edit it and post a statement of fact.
In the second case, the poster would be libeling Paizo, and we have a clear-cut policy of not allowing individuals to speak for groups or organizations of which they are not a designated spokesperson.
Both of your examples are clear-cut, which is not what we're discussing here.
Yes, I gave blatant examples to make the argument clear.
How about... "You need all six core books to play" or "Paizo has been secretly developing Pathfinder since they lost the license to Dragon and Dungeon Magazines."
AFAIK, neither of those is against the rules. If reported, neither of those would get corrected by WizO. Unless WizOs are going to be fact-checkers, there's a point where you rely on the forum to correct misstatements.
I'm not sure if posting a ridiculous and inflammatory thesis that people will argue endlessly with is borderline trolling or not, but in any case that thread is beyond derailed at this point.
The thing is, if nobody responded to him, the thread wouldn't have been "derailed". Personally, I think polaris' concerns are on-topic within that thread and within the C&C forums.
Having tracked down the thread, I agree. Further, I think there are others on that thread who are doing much more to derail the topic. *shrug*
Like I said before, the idea seems very pro-troll in that the actual trolling isn't treated as a problem. Nor are obvious patterns. I came back here to point out that there have been five warnings issued on the C&C boards, four of which were instigated by the same two people. The last one seems entirely non-sequitor, thanks most likely to invasive editing and the fact that Wizo posts never address what the actual violation in a thread is.
How exactly does anyone to expect warnings to work if the actual thing being warned is never acknowledged anyway? Especially when the offending parts are edited out. All the time, I see two people having an argument (not a flame war, not trolling) and out of seemingly nowhere, there's a Wizo post saying 'lets all be nice, now. Or I'll threaten a warn/ban that's never actually going to come and has no real effect if it does'. And I wonder what exactly triggered that.
It's a basic rule of operant conditioning that you can't just shock the monkey at random and pray he reads your mind.
I don't think that the 'well if everyone ignored them, there wouldn't be a problem' sentiment holds water. Attempting to be disruptive and trying to goad people into things should be just as punishable regardless of how successful the attempt was.
If the post isn't against the CoC, the WizOs can't do anything.
Like I said before, the idea seems very pro-troll in that the actual trolling isn't treated as a problem.
Not really. If people don't respond to posters looking for a reaction, the thread disappears off the front page.
Nor are obvious patterns. I came back here to point out that there have been five warnings issued on the C&C boards, four of which were instigated by the same two people. The last one seems entirely non-sequitor, thanks most likely to invasive editing and the fact that Wizo posts never address what the actual violation in a thread is.
Do you know what additional action might have been taken?? Do you know that there weren't PMs sent to posters warning them?
How exactly does anyone to expect warnings to work if the actual thing being warned is never acknowledged anyway? Especially when the offending parts are edited out.
The people that the warning is aimed at know who they are, and know what is being talked about.
All the time, I see two people having an argument (not a flame war, not trolling) and out of seemingly nowhere, there's a Wizo post saying 'lets all be nice, now. Or I'll threaten a warn/ban that's never actually going to come and has no real effect if it does'. And I wonder what exactly triggered that.
There is no need for people to know why a WizO posted a warning. As I said above, the people who are the cause of the WizO sticking their head into the forum know who they are.
If the post isn't against the CoC, the WizOs can't do anything.
But trolling is against the CoC. I feel Vaal's pain, because I have reported trolling, and even provided links showing that the same thread was being started by the same person over several weeks, and then nothing.
Do you know that there weren't PMs sent to posters warning them?
And my response to that is: Who cares if PMs are sent? The trolls don't care as evidenced by the fact that trolls haven't modified their behavior. So either no PM was sent, or an ineffective PM was sent. Either way, all I care about is the behavior changing and the current way problems are handled in C&C is not causing the trolls to modify their behavior.
I don't blame the WizOs by the way. They're doing what they are charged to do: handle discrete problems as they arise. They simply aren't charged with looking over a poster's pattern of behavior to determine if the person is a behavioral problem in the forums.
But it should be somebody's responsibility, because it's really apparent that the C&C trolls are taking advantage of the system.
If the post isn't against the CoC, the WizOs can't do anything.
Then, as I said before: The CoC needs to be fixed. Problem is there's no one to contact (who will allow contact to be established at least) about that. The CoC itself is this board's biggest problem, not the trolls because if the CoC worked, they wouldn't be here long.
Not really. If people don't respond to posters looking for a reaction, the thread disappears off the front page.
That doesn't actually address the root of the problem.
Do you know what additional action might have been taken?? Do you know that there weren't PMs sent to posters warning them?
I know when something *I* say triggers a vague reprimand and random editing, *I* don't get a PM. Last week, this happened over the word 'hick'. Not calling someone a hick, using the word hick to describe a character.
The people that the warning is aimed at know who they are, and know what is being talked about.
Then why drive by the thread and leave a vague warning that has no context once the editing is done?
There is no need for people to know why a WizO posted a warning. As I said above, the people who are the cause of the WizO sticking their head into the forum know who they are.
Like I said, this isn't true. In all my time on these boards, I've been actually contacted by a Wizo as per a warning once (and I'd like to point out that this was once again a 'punish the victim' kind of thing because *I* got warned for responding to baiting. The Wizo even TOLD me that was why) and I've been in plenty of threads where it's highly ambiguous as to who the shot was aimed at because everyone got edited.
And even if these private conferences were happening, what good are they? Bans mean nothing. Turn in your name, make a MuP, continue as you were. No examples are made, no one is actually punished. What's even the point?
These are all gaping, oozing flaws in the current CoC and management system that really needs to be addressed but no one seems to want to do anything but tell people to ignore not just the trolls, but the inherent flaws.
I'm not sure though and you'd have to ask someone in the know.