It's like throwing a diseased cow carcass through an airplane turbine.
I hate it when that happens.
Because they hoped the people bringing up the glaring flaws with their game would go away.
Or ridiculizes the missguided haterz in a way that Voltaire would love?
I don't get why they felt the need to do such an action. It's like throwing a diseased cow carcass through an airplane turbine. Now all the disease is infecting everywhere else!
Think of it like a giant meteor hurtling toward Earth. As a single ball of rock it has the potential for great damage so we send up a team of goofy misfits to heroically sacrifice themselves in order to blow it up. The resultant pieces burn themselves up harmlessly, we all enjoy the amusing light show, and then go about our normal routine.
Because they hoped the people bringing up the glaring flaws with their game would go away.
Since these people never actually existed, I doubt your justification has any weight. People complained about things they didn't like. Rarely did anyone actually manage to raise an actual flaw.
It's like throwing a diseased cow carcass through an airplane turbine.
That is the perfect visual for these circumstances.Trolls and bashing aside, I think a lot of people were brining up some very valid concerns with the game. But, since the pro-4.0 people outnumber the con-4.0 people (yes, there are more pro) this will not be seen as a big deal, since I PERSONALLY think some of the pro-4.0 people willfully ignore some of the serous glaring flaws of 4.0 and cheer it on no matter what. Which is just as bad as the people who bash it constantly.
When you look at the big picture, which is that 4E is a better game, what some people call flaws sounds like a lot of whining. No game is perfect, and listening to people focusing with tunnel vision on a game systems inevitable flaws gets old.
There is also a big difference between "this is a bad game" and "I don't like this game". If you don't like the game, that is your choice and I don't have an issue with that. If you call this a bad game, I have a bit more of an issue with that. Also, a lot of people make the mistake of equating not liking the game with the game sucking.
With the game actually released, however, that's not what the boards are for anymore. It's for substantive discussion of the game. Beyond that, it's up to the mods to decide how much emotional venting (and the thread derailment that comes with it) is going to be allowed.
Trolls and bashing aside, I think a lot of people were brining up some very valid concerns with the game. But, since the pro-4.0 people outnumber the con-4.0 people (yes, there are more pro) this will not be seen as a big deal, since I PERSONALLY think some of the pro-4.0 people willfully ignore some of the serous glaring flaws of 4.0 and cheer it on no matter what. Which is just as bad as the people who bash it constantly.
While I don't doubt there are some who would do that, for my part, I honestly think it's the better game, for exactly the reasons many of the haters hate it. I'm not going to say it's perfect, that there aren't any parts of it that I don't agree with, because there are. (I understand why they did that to the wizard, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.) There were more in 3E though. (ECL, encounter building in general, skill micromanagement, psionics....all this, and more, made me miss 2E.) I don't think it's necessarily a matter of 'glaring flaws' as it is just a matter of difference of gaming style. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Also keep in mind, I'm sure there are a few of us pro-4E folk who used to be against it, vehemently. I was. And then I actually started looking into it at the urging of a friend, and was surprised to find out I liked the changes I saw. And I'm still considering this WotC's last chance to keep me as a customer. I wasn't seeing anything different from the people who decided it was a horrible game. Again, illustrating that the 'problems' are a matter of opinion and personal play style.
And I think that's just what the problem was with the C&C boards. People were posting opinion as fact, and bashing those who didn't agree. And most often, it was the anti folks who were doing this. Now that it's closed though, those people just come here. I've seen posters who hate the game, but put it forward as their opinion, have that opinion respected. Most just take 5 minutes to slap together some WoW or Pokemon analogy, probably just because they're bitter and feel like trolling. Why should we respect that?
Trolls and bashing aside, I think a lot of people were brining up some very valid concerns with the game. But, since the pro-4.0 people outnumber the con-4.0 people (yes, there are more pro) this will not be seen as a big deal, since I PERSONALLY think some of the pro-4.0 people willfully ignore some of the serous glaring flaws of 4.0 and cheer it on no matter what. Which is just as bad as the people who bash it constantly.
Actually, several complaints or concerns with the game have been discussed rationally in this forum. It typically happens when the guy with the complaint isn't leading with an outpouring of emotion. Game rules can be discussed. A gamer's nerdrage is pretty hard to build a conversation around.
As for the "flaws" in 4th Edition, most are going to be a matter of taste. Some folks are going to like things like healing surges, some won't. As long as people aren't taking game rules and new editions as some sort of personal insult, there's plenty to be discussed. Too many people who don't like what they see, however, are mischaracterizing fans of the new edition. How can that possibly develop into a civil conversation?
Because they hoped the people bringing up the glaring flaws with their game would go away.
Original Poster: So that this could join us in another forum. Isn't it great?
-IV
WotC wanted the pre-4E forums to be a place where people who were excited about 4E and wanted to discuss the good points of the 4E previews could do so.
At the same time, they realized that there would be a noisy backalsh against 4E. Some of the people would be irrationally venting and displaying impressive amounts of nerdrage. There would also be people who would be analytically exposing the problems with 4E from their point of view. The C&C forums allowed a singular place for those people to infest, while not drowning out conversation in the rest of the forums.
It was closed because 4E is coming out. Now, as opposed to ranting and raving based on rumors or previews, people can do so based on the actual data in the books. Thus, they can do so in the proper forum.
I am recommending that this thread be moved to the Community Business forum.
Oi, there was no reason to send those nasty private messages. I know you have a right to your opinion.
If someone is sending you private messages that violate the Code of Conduct, you should report it to Customer Service. Instructions for reporting abusive Private Messages to Customer Service can be found [thread=1040958]here[/thread] (under "Trolling via PMs")
Ninja'd
Look, I get that people should have a place to discuss what they like and don't like about the new edition, and that a lot of traffic is going to occur on this subject since the books just came out. But for the love of sanity, I can't find any other general discussion on the General Discussion forum! It's become specific discussion. If we're going to have this kind of volume for a specific topic, can we please have a specific board devoted to it? That way General Discussion can be for the, well, discussions about general topics?
I dunno...maybe it's just that the board reorganization has shifted things around in a funky way, but I'm having a hard time finding the discussion of the various articles that are released on the site that I used to enjoy so much. General Discussion seems like the first place to look for this sort of thing, but all I get there is vitriol...which, by the way, is not discussion. So General Discussion fails to be general (it's all about liking/disliking 4th Ed) and it fails to be discussion (it's mostly vitriol). If we're giving this forum up to that sort of thing, could someone make a forum for those of us who actually do want to have a general discussion of the game?
I'm hoping that someone official's looking at this. I clicked through 7 pages in the General Discussion Forum to find this thread. Most of those pages were filled with complaints about 4th Edition or defenses against the complaints about 4th Edition.
Look, I get that people should have a place to discuss what they like and don't like about the new edition, and that a lot of traffic is going to occur on this subject since the books just came out. But for the love of sanity, I can't find any other general discussion on the General Discussion forum! It's become specific discussion. If we're going to have this kind of volume for a specific topic, can we please have a specific board devoted to it? That way General Discussion can be for the, well, discussions about general topics?
I dunno...maybe it's just that the board reorganization has shifted things around in a funky way, but I'm having a hard time finding the discussion of the various articles that are released on the site that I used to enjoy so much. General Discussion seems like the first place to look for this sort of thing, but all I get there is vitriol...which, by the way, is not discussion. So General Discussion fails to be general (it's all about liking/disliking 4th Ed) and it fails to be discussion (it's mostly vitriol). If we're giving this forum up to that sort of thing, could someone make a forum for those of us who actually do want to have a general discussion of the game?
For those interested in this sort of thing, the above post really made me start rethinking my current thoughts on the C&C forum. I'll mull it over and try to write more on it next week.
I'll go through the forum and see what can be cleaned up.
Folks need to make more positive posts. It's the signal to noise ratio, and we need to get more signal out there.
I'll go through the forum and see what can be cleaned up.
In other words if you have a concern or criticism about 4th edition you are not welcome here because you are making too much noise and the few people that actually like 4th edition cannot be heard over the sheer number of people who dislike it?
AKA biased forums so people come here thinking 4th edition is welcomed by all and that no one has any problems with it.
Oddly General Discussion is now filled with the views and problems of the full 4th edition, and this comes from people who DO like it...Things that make you go..
I would prefer people to not ONLY make positive posts, but make valid posts. Discussion usually starts when two people disagree, and they discuss the points of the disagreement to figure out where each other is coming from with their view. Thus you need the negative view in order to have any validity to the postive view.
Simple thing to do, unlock the C&C forum and leave it where it is. If people want to post there then that "noise" would remain contained there rather than the other forums for 4th edition. That is my guess. The problem is those people who like 4th ediiton will come to troll in it and try to tell those who have valid C&C they don't belong on the forum at all since they don't like 4th edition.....
We don't need a place (and there's really no place) for people to just bash 4e or WotC just for the sake of bashing.
I wasn't big on psionics, but you never saw me posting "psionics psuck and people that like it are morons!" on the psionics board. It's that simple to just not post on the current edition boards.
We still have some previous edition boards, why not just go post about 3e there rather than waste time spewing hate all over the place? Because if there aren't good discussions about the previous editoin going on, at some point the decision to just drop that area might come up.
It's like Incarnum fans. They never bothered to post anything about incarnum, just "we want a board!" They were told outright if there were enough incarnum threads in the magic area, it would show the need for a separate board. That didn't happen.
So, are people really interested in continuing to discuss 3e, or are they just here to make cheap shots at 4e and WotC?
Perhaps if the "criticism" were dropped from the tile, as that seems to invite hostility. One can have a criticism without being hostile, but it seems many people just can't. It's the hostility that people are objecting to. Most don't care if someone doesn't like 4e, as the two would never play in a game together, but the sniping and name calling and hostility definately has to drop.
People have always disagreed with the rules, but again it seems that people aren't trying to have rational discussions, but just flame each other.
When two people disagree with the rules so passionately you will have heated discussions.
The 4e sux type threads were probably created due to the fact the Doomsayers thread existed, and those in favor of 4e flamed the opinons of those who didn't like it.
If you have a gorup venting frustration with each other and all agreeing that one thing is bad int heir eyes and one person comes in to say they are wrong, that is when flaming will occur.
Does many of the threads in GD or the other forums show anything other than concerns and criticisms about the game? People discusing the rules have valid concerns about what one thing means versus what they think it means.
Other people may have a problem wiht the rules and cticize how it is written by rewriting it and placing that thread in the house rules section.
Granted all the valid former C&C should be moved into the existing proper forums for the topic would be a beter idea, just closing them up archived doesn't really do anythiing until the archiver comes along in a month and empties the whole forum leaving with an empty forum that is closed to new posts.
Myself I cannot speak for those wishing to discuss 3e, but they are now doing it in the previous editino sections like the other 10 editions are crammed into as well.
Oddly some of those forums need not even exist as adventure design still hasn't changed its premise. You do something to get some XP and a reward. The edition matters little to MANY topics involved in RPGs of this nature and are not limited to just D&D either.
Where would those Cosmology related threads go for any edition? There are some in the former C&C, so where would they be moved to?
Just things to consider.
Constructive criticism is always welcome, criticism by itself really isn't that useful.
These are 4e boards, now. Let's start getting them on topic to that. There is way too much tolerance for the edition wars, imo.
PS: WotC, please create meaningful 3e boards for 3e people to go to. And they should be separate from the 4e boards, and separate from the 2e and earlier boards. I realize that 4e is where your bread is buttered now, but if you create a strong community for D&D players, no matter their flavor, then you'll have more eyeballs here and more chance that maybe people will see and try 4e. As it is now, there is almost no reason for anyone not playing 4e to ever come to these forums, other forums have taken that place. That's a lot of potential customers being shunned.
PPS: Also start doing some reprints of old stuff. There is a market there, it's dollars not being captured.
I think if ENworld or DF has a thread or two complaining about how no anti4e BS threads and a lack of freedom of speech that trolls seem to jump to then we've started to get into the right range of moderation.
People who come to the official 4e DND forums and have concerns or complaints about them they should take some care in how they phrase those complaints so that they are constructive. I'd be perfectly content with people feeling like they COULDN'T just shoot from the hip about how 4e sucks. There are many places on the internet to do such a thing already, including starting one's own blog or website as such.
We might as well just rename the forum Concerns and Criticism(for history's sake), or Edition Wars(for accuracy).
Now they've got this VCL guy going around requesting threads be closed and they guy's just a volunteer! Where are Wizards of the Coast employees? It sounds like they want anyone who disagrees or has any criticisms to bring up, to just go away. I was perfectly fine with some of the discussion on merits of 4th edition (I bought all 3 books, the module, and played through several games) and many of the arguments were actually swaying me over. There are some good things to 4th edition and maybe with time, some of the other changes will grow on us, but this attempt to silence us, by using a volunteer, because you don't have the guts to come onto your official messageboards and address your customers concerns yourself (none of the Dev Blogs mention any of the concerns we are bringing up and pretend everything is rosy and cheery) just makes me angry and even more resistant to embrace the new version of your product.
The Wizards of the Coast employees don't handle the board's housekeeping. Which is merging and moving threads and the like.
As for "silencing" people, if you read those closed threads you'll see they're not discussing D&D, they're discussing people griping about D&D, how to post on the boards, sick of seeing all the fights on the boards and things of that nature. That sort of discussion is best served on this board, which handles board issues.
Could they have been moved/merged? Probably, but I already put the poor CS person through the ringer with a large number of merge/move threads relating to Amazon.com orders.
When I saw half of the general discussion forums locked by VCL, it really started to boil my blood. I interpreted it as, "Thanks for your money, now shut up and go away," regardless of the actual intention. I'm much calmer now. To balance some of my other posts, I am in the process of doing a detailed analysis of all 3 books and the module, and listing all of the good and bad of each. This is the same copy I plan on sending to Wizards of the Coast directly via the Contact Us section, as recommended by a moderator. Hopefully, it won't be locked, because someone who I have no control over, decides to reply off topic.
Because it's been out for less than a week, that's not enough time for people to have REALLY given their new game a try, hence making a lot of the complaints simple speculation rather than tried and tested criticisms. There's also the "knee jerk hatred" that I wouldn't want to hear if I were them either.
Pessimistic Response...
Wizards...like so many game companies, cannot stand poor reviews of their baby. They've also designed it for a different market than the people they designed 3.0/3.5 for, hence they don't give a rats rear end if those people complain about it.
This is the same copy I plan on sending to Wizards of the Coast directly via the Contact Us section, as recommended by a moderator.
Note that I am not a moderator.
Also I would like to see much more support in the forums for AD&D.
I don't get it, Hasbro makes lots of different board games, but only supports one edition of D&D at a time? Seems like AD&D, 3.5, and 4e should theoretically live happily next to each other on the shelves, just like D20 Modern and 3.5 do. They're all different games, like chess vs checkers vs monopoly. AD&D 2.75e is my personal preference, but it's just my opinion.
Why WOTC should 'waste' human ressources on past products that are not supported anymore, and on peoples who will probably not buy ANYTHING from WOTC? Being the devil's advocate here.
As for "silencing" people, if you read those closed threads you'll see they're not discussing D&D, they're discussing people griping about D&D, how to post on the boards, sick of seeing all the fights on the boards and things of that nature. That sort of discussion is best served on this board, which handles board issues.
I agree with most, but the two bolded are explicitly D&D related. It seems you are saying that anyone that has a problem with any portion of D&D is a troll because they do not agree with the masses, or another group who likes everything about D&D.
When you direct negativity at people for having an opinon different than yours, do you really expect for those same people to respond positively to it?
Or are you saying that any discussion outside of RAW is griping about D&D and as such the House-Rules forum should have all the threads closed because they are "griping" about some aspect of D&D that doesn't work for them and have decided to change it?
Call me a troll if you want, I am just pointing out the irony of the concept that some discussion of D&D is allowed, while other is not.
As for posting about "4e h4ters" or "3e h4aters" or whatever doesn't relaly belong in board business, as it is not anything to do with something that administration needs to respond to. It is venting just like those who have "gripes" about portions of D&D.
So posts about other posters themselves, or a group thereof have no place on the D&D forums at ALL!
With all my years of Bulletin Board use since before the Windows operating system it dumbfounds me how some people do not understand BBSs and what discussion is and can contain. Oddly enough these are the same people that try to run forums to say they can do it too because the internet allows for anyone to have their own forum.
The problem is not the topics, but the people who think they have a right to discuss something, and others have no right at all to discuss what they want to about D&D. This is apparently not limited to the users, but the administration as well. Yes I have adressed this in the C&C for CM if you wish to read more about it there.
Just placing something here about it as well, for those who do not visit that thread, and may miss it, and since it was brought up here it is something the "community" (notice the lowercase com) should be discussing, not the global Gleemax website alone, but the individual communities it comprises.
Why WOTC should 'waste' human ressources on past products that are not supported anymore, and on peoples who will probably not buy ANYTHING from WOTC? Being the devil's advocate here.
Because they refuse to freely give the rights to anyone else to legally use the material in any fashion including forums on other websites, so they are bound to the ownership of the copyright of the older editions and in the intereste of actually making people feel welcome, they should not discard them.
Would you say that all non-4e discussion be removed from the forums entirely since the system is no longer in production, and no longer supported in any form by WotC?
Every post even trying to adapt from 3.x to 4e should also be removed as off-topic since it contains mention of the unsupported product?
Maybe the problem is the people challenging others right to have their own opion, including yourself with such a statement as you made there is the problem. Respect that some people like older editions, and some like the newest. then just discuss why there is a difference rather than trying to tell them they are wrong for being different.
A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.
So it isn't the fact that people like different editions, but the bigotry towards those who like different editions that is the problem.
I agree with most, but the two bolded are explicitly D&D related. It seems you are saying that anyone that has a problem with any portion of D&D is a troll because they do not agree with the masses, or another group who likes everything about D&D.
Meh, typo on my part. The line should read "people griping about the behavior of others on the boards". That makes it a meta issue, not a D&D related on, but a boards/community one.
So posts about other posters themselves, or a group thereof have no place on the D&D forums at ALL!
That would make everyone's life easier, and the place would be a lot friendlier. People could then discuss the issues, such as the differences between editions, their favorite characters, last night's game and so on.
But as for belonging on D&D General? Nope, doens't belong there.
At least you clearified your typo so it doesn't get misunderstood further. If only the rest of the site did that so as not to mislead people. Thanks.
It would also help if people stopped assuming the worst about everything that anyone involved with WotC. Seriously. VCLs, WotC people, they are actually people, just like the rest of us. People make mistakes. People misspeak. People do their best to make things as good as they can make them. Just like the rest of us.
The comments I see people make on these forums are out and out rude. They are words that people would never use in person, it is only the comfort of the anonymity of the internet that makes people feel they can act like near complete jerks. A classic example of John Gabriel's GIDW Theory.
The comments I see people make on these forums are out and out rude. They are words that people would never use in person, it is only the comfort of the anonymity of the internet that makes people feel they can act like near complete jerks.
1- Corporations and their component parts are NOT people when speaking in an official capacity. They are greed mongers wanting only the consumers money for little in return.
2- You don't know me. In person I have no problem being even more blunt to someone's face than I am on here. My fingers are much more polite than my mouth/foot is. ;)
3- VCLs take the crap because the simple reason they post. Many of the actual people the complaints about D&D and the forums to, the ones in charge of making the final decisions, don't have the balls to present themselves in the forums to take the lashing Mike and the VCLs do. If they did, then maybe the VCLs would be catching less flak and friendly fire.
Take for example the recent posts made by Ken Troop. No users are fighting against each other they, they are all attacking Ken's posts. The anger over the DDI situation is directly not at the other uses or VCLs, but at the architech of the "problem".
So what is happening is that anger is being misplaced onto the VCL because they operate in a sort of semi-official capacity because they do have some repore with CM and are able to get things done, and can actually do things with the forums other than just post like normal users.
If more people would step up like Ken has done to take the tounge lashings form people VCLs would probably get less flak. Of Course CM will not do it or CS rather won't because they don't have to answer to the users, only their employer. So for forum matter that employer needs to step in and take the tounge lashing where they belong rather than on the backs of the VCLs.
So my ideas and thoughts are not as think as you drunk I am! ;)
4e needs no apologies, it's a game line. Sink or swim.
But the idea that "all older editions are crap, and players are fools for not jumping on", that might not be the "Official Party line" but it's close enough... Apology needed, or at least quenching of that idea.
Similarly, "4e is the end of D&D." that needs to be killed off, too. I myself had posted same, I see the error in it, this morning. It's a game line.
My problem is really with the discard of all other players, other than 4e prospects.
Although most of our posts contained both negative and positive critic about the new ed, just no moderators bothered to read through them...My problem is really with the discard of all other players, other than 4e prospects.
My problem is that they are really, really leniant with blatant CoC violations from haterz.
If you think they are censoring and trying ot kick you, they are REALLY bad at it.
Where did I put my acid and fire? That takes care of trolls real good. :P
Madder troll get stronger troll become. Seriously these do not work on Internet trolls, it's just want they want. ;)
1. Didn't work so well, and it was a lot of effort to get the posters to move.
2. Begged the question, "Why is their an entire forum section about complaints?"
3. What they'd really like to do is ban complaints altogether, but even proposing this no doubt would create a horrendous uprising. So they're stuck with weak and indirect methods.
Don't get me wrong. I prefer 3.5e but 4e still seems like an okay game. It is just very, very different. It should be no surprise that so many people hate it, nor that so many people frustrated with 3.5e love it. Nor that most people just wanna friggin' play a game and aren't nerdy enough to care. Alas, such people don't make many long angry forum posts like the others.