Why? Some of them I can see the need to move, but those that went to the off-topic tavern? Those which struck me as just out-of-place enough to not fit in other forums?
Honestly, if this is how it's going to be, why not just get rid of the general forums entirely? A little consistency would be nice.
Then someone decides it should be someplace else. Sometimes it's my fault for not thinking things through, but sometimes I'm not sure. For example, my Rod Noddenberry's Emporium of Niggling Details was moved to the Equipment forum, even though it mostly had to do with construction, employees, contractors, and other details people were asking about, such as "How much should I charge my players' PCs to build a house?" I figured the Equipment forum was more for things like "If I make a noose with our rope, how do I calculate the strangling damage if I hang someone with it?" or "Whatever happened to the staff sling, and why is it considered an inferior weapon when Lacrosse teams use it quite effectively?"
Maybe they just do it because they can.
I would suggest that if a subforum doesn't get enough traffic that the problem might be that it is unnecessary and should be collapsed into General, not that more General threads need to be transferred to it.
(where no one but the mods will ever see the thread and it will die a pointless death)
(waits for the inevitable move to Community Business)
(where no one but the mods will ever see the thread and it will die a pointless death)
Wich sometimes seems to be the whole point of moving the thread.....
Where else do you put the Limricks thread. Or the "What Race/Class am I" pictures thread. Or the humor threads. Or the "DMing for my 7-year old" thread.
Yes, theoretically you can make 60 separate forums for these kinds of subjects (DMing, Humor, Advice, Casual), but this kind of subdivision would just create too many forums, and no one would want to visit them or keep track of them all. So we have General.
Also, sometimes people just stick to General, but moving threads not only orginizes discussion but draws traffic to other interesting areas.
First, I am not perfect. I will make mistakes. If you think a mistake was made (as with the Channel Divinity thread), you can post in Community Business on the VCL Request thread. I will ask that thread restored to 4e General.
Second, Community Business is an open forum. Anybody can post there. Anybody can review threads. It is not intended to "hide" any threads. Things get discussed there about the community because that's where community business is discussed, not in 4e General. And, yes, I am requesting this thread get moved to that forum.
Third, 4e General is not the forum where everything goes. it's the forum were you post only if there is no other forum for it. The Limericks thread does belong here (and in fact has not been moved). Threads about game design stay here.
Humor threads generally belong in Off-Topic Tavern. Threads asking people what they do what they don't play D&D goes in Off-Topic Tavern.
But in actuality, very few threads that get posted here belong here, which is why most of them get transferred. Webster moves threads about three times a week, depending on his schedule.
I urge you to start visiting other forums and not assume that everything is or should be posted here first. The General forums are supposed to be the last place you look for a thread, not the first.
Since I'm the one that requested the moves, let me explain.
First, I am not perfect. I will make mistakes. If you think a mistake was made (as with the Channel Divinity thread), you can post in Community Business on the VCL Request thread. I will ask that thread restored to 4e General.
Second, Community Business is an open forum. Anybody can post there. Anybody can review threads. It is not intended to "hide" any threads. Things get discussed there about the community because that's where community business is discussed, not in 4e General. And, yes, I am requesting this thread get moved to that forum.
Third, 4e General is not the forum where everything goes. it's the forum were you post only if there is no other forum for it. The Limericks thread does belong here (and in fact has not been moved). Threads about game design stay here.
Humor threads generally belong in Off-Topic Tavern. Threads asking people what they do what they don't play D&D goes in Off-Topic Tavern.
But in actuality, very few threads that get posted here belong here, which is why most of them get transferred. Webster moves threads about three times a week, depending on his schedule.
I urge you to start visiting other forums and not assume that everything is or should be posted here first. The General forums are supposed to be the last place you look for a thread, not the first.
I think people (okay, well at least me) are questioning your underlying assumptions here. WHY is it so bad that most threads get started here? And do you not worry that this attempt at categorizing all threads might have a dampening effect on the discussions themselves?
Sorry to say, but I don't think I request those threads be moved. As far as I know, people start them there. I'll be careful about it in the future in case it has been me and I just don't remember it.
boj0,
Sorry to say, but I don't think I request those threads be moved. As far as I know, people start them there. I'll be careful about it in the future in case it has been me and I just don't remember it.
I'm not calling you out wrecan, sorry if it came across that way.
example of derailing Yes, I took part in it, but it shows how fast they devolve into nothingness
I think people (okay, well at least me) are questioning your underlying assumptions here. WHY is it so bad that most threads get started here?
Because topic-specific forums exist to discuss those topics. We don't want people who are interested in discussing magic items to have to check the Magic Items and the general forums for discussions on magic items. We don't want people interested in discussing Avengers to look in 4e Strikers and General.
If we allow General to be a place where you discuss anything and everything, we shouldn't have any other forums. But that would be unwieldy. In addition, were we to make it a free-for-all, discussion would be stifled, as you'd have dozens of threads each day, pushing discussions quickly off of most people's front page on the forum. The only people who could keep track of threads were people who visited multiple times a day. We're hoping to also make these forums convenient for people who might come here only once a week, or simply because they have a casual interest in one aspect of the game.
That was the situation about two years ago when we first started transferring threads. In our experience, the result has been that more threads are visible on the front page of their appropriate forums for lnger, thus maximizing the chance that people might see it and respond to it.
And do you not worry that this attempt at categorizing all threads might have a dampening effect on the discussions themselves?
My experience on these and other forums is that it is less dampening to discussions in general because it encourages people to congregate in the forum specific to the topic and that generates the best responses. Might a specific thread on, for example, paladins get more response in 4e General than in 4e Defenders? Possibly. On the balance, though, I think it is better for the forums as a whole to be able to go to one forum to discuss paladins.
Do I worry? Yes, I do. But, for now, I believe that transferring posts to the appropriate forum is the best way to maximize the number of threads that get seen and responded to.
I'm not calling you out wrecan, sorry if it came across that way.
No worries. I didn't take it that way. I just wanted you to know that most of the "Hi" threads, I think, are actually started in Off-Topic Tavern.
If you think they're flooding the forum, I definitely think you should start a thread on the topic in the Community Business forum. Maybe mudbunny, webster, or Zherog (or other members of the community) might have some insights.
No worries. I didn't take it that way. I just wanted you to know that most of the "Hi" threads, I think, are actually started in Off-Topic Tavern.
Oh those poor, misguided souls ;)
If you think they're flooding the forum, I definitely think you should start a thread on the topic in the Community Business forum. Maybe mudbunny, webster, or Zherog (or other members of the community) might have some insights.
Thanks for the advice on that.
my Rod Noddenberry's Emporium of Niggling Details was moved to the Equipment forum, even though it mostly had to do with construction, employees, contractors, and other details people were asking about
The Rituals, Equipment and Magic Items forum is for discussion of pretty much any object or service on which you can spend coin. I really like that thread and had been considering that it should be stickied in the RE&MI forum.
Maybe they just do it because they can.
I hope I do it because I think it's the most appropriate place for the discussion.
[...] "Hi" threads, I think, are actually started in Off-Topic Tavern. [...] Maybe mudbunny, webster, or Zherog (or other members of the community) might have some insights.
Like making a sub-forum in the OTT specifically for "Hi!" threads. It seems to work over at the ENWorld and GitP forums.
First, I am not perfect. I will make mistakes. If you think a mistake was made (as with the Channel Divinity thread), you can post in Community Business on the VCL Request thread. I will ask that thread restored to 4e General.
This is actually the big reason I keep checking that thread; I'm curious to see what the moved threads are about, and I sometimes have a suggestion on placement.
This is a silly question that seems like just a misdirected complaint.
Where else do you put the Limricks thread. Or the "What Race/Class am I" pictures thread. Or the humor threads. Or the "DMing for my 7-year old" thread.
I have to say that I understand the thread moves, everything has its place that it belongs. The Race/Class picture thread and humor threads? Off-Topic Tavern, which has been the home for this kind of thread for ages. The D&D Limericks? It's D&D related specifically, and has no better place for it so General fits perfect. "DMing for my 7-year old" is exactly the kind of topic that "What's a DM to Do?" was made to handle.
Most, if not all, of the moved topics would fit better in other places. It's just that a lot of people see "General" and don't look at the other forums to see if it would fit in better there. So now, as Wrecan put it, we have 2 forums to look at for conversations on most topics: the appropriate forum, plus general. Organizing the threads as they are will allow someone who wants to find discussions on Avengers, for instance, to go straight to the 4e Strikers forum and find them all in one place. It saves a lot of headaches.
And before it's mentioned otherwise...yes there are, in fact, very obscure forums on the boards. They're obscure because no one ever thinks there are worthwhile threads there. Sometimes it's because they don't understand what the forum is actually for, and sometimes it's because they don't understand exactly how it is that a given thread relates to such a forum.
I think that to Help with this, perhaps a stickied thread in the General forum that explains briefly but effectively what each other forum is about (better than the sentence or two that currently explains each one. Also, instead of Moved threads being reverted to standard font style...they should remain bold and instead be changed to a different color, so as to make them stand out. It would be nice if a post in a moved thread had a brief explanation of why it was moved and why to the specific forum to which it was moved.
Finally...there are too many forums. Organization is all well and good, but any more than a dozen or perhaps two dozen forums or sub-forums is simply too many. Organization isn't just about categorization...it's also about efficiency and ease of perusal. A filing system to keep things easy to manage is no good if it's got so many categories that something you THINK is in one place somehow ends up in another because of some portion of the topic that...to the poster...wasn't even really relevant.
Actually, I just had a thought. Perhaps instead of starting a new thread in whatever forum one happens to be in...there could be a drop-down menu next to the text window that allows one to choose the appropriate forum. Seeing a list right in front of oneself at the time of OP might reduce the number of threads in the wrong forums. After all, often what happens is that someone reasds a thread in a forum and it sparks an idea for a thread of their own on a related but different topic...so they have to post it in a different forum. What ends up happening though is that they post in the same forum as the original thread, or in general, or simply in whatever forum seems handy at the time. Such a drop-down list might make it easier for people to pick the right forum...especially if there are fewer forums to cope with.
Thread merging should also happen MORE than thread moving. There are many threads that are so much alike that they should not continue to be separate threads. Case in point, the recent "monk is psionic" and "Ki is gone" type of threads. Some have been merged...more should be yet.
I know this sounds like a ton of work, but some of them are overall changes, making for less weekly work later on.
They're obscure because no one ever thinks there are worthwhile threads there. Sometimes it's because they don't understand what the forum is actually for, and sometimes it's because they don't understand exactly how it is that a given thread relates to such a forum.
But most often, I've found, it's because they didn't realize there was a forum.
Seriously, if the categorization of threads is supposed to make them easier to find and then said categorization moves the threads to places no one looks, isn't that inherently self-contradictory?
I'm not arguing that ONLY the General forum should exist (or that it shouldn't exist at all) but that maybe having forty-three* different forums and expecting people to a) search them all before posting and b) search them all when reading is overkill. Possibly the categories should be broader and/or people should be less obsessive over whether a very active and interesting conversation is in the 'right' place or not.
I also often see threads that are really quite general in topic but which have some specific touchstone to something or other get moved. I know that's a judgment that somebody has to make, but I'm suggesting that they should err on the side of NOT moving threads when there is doubt. Because, again, I don't think anything disrupts an interesting conversation more than asking all the participants to get up and move to a different table in a different room in the restaurant.
* number pulled out of my you-know-where
I have a theory that if no one ever posts to a sub-forum that maybe that particular subforum is uneccessary or unhelpful. Crazy idea, eh?!?
Seriously, if the categorization of threads is supposed to make them easier to find and then said categorization moves the threads to places no one looks, isn't that inherently self-contradictory?
Part of the reason no one looks at those sub-forums before posting in General is that General is at the top of the list, before all the sub-forums. If it were after, to where the people had to scroll past the other forums first, then we'd see a difference in posting probably. There's a thread on this topic in Community Business as we speak.
This means, without board speciation, these baords would move too fast to possibly follow and it would be impossible to find useful threads or threads with needed information underneath the solid page of 'MONKS ARE PSIONIC!' 'PSIOINC MONKS???' 'MONK=PSI' 'HAY GUYZ! DID U HEER MOKN IS PSI? I DON'T THINK WE HAV A THREAD ABOUT THAT!' every. time. something new is posted on the main site.
So instead, we have sections by topic (poorly thought out sections though they are) to keep the boards reasonable size.
Except newbies and people who just plain aren't considerate just dump everything in the first section that *might* fit, i.e. The General forum, which is the first thing you see in the DnD Fundamentals group for no reason other than to screw everything up.
General is obstinsibly about things not covered by the other Fundamental sections, things like Gary Gygax's death, the discovery of that d20 in Rome, or what celebrity plays DnD. Oh, and the Edition War. No, seriosuly. When 3 become 3.5, we were told to limit the edition war to General.
It simply seemed to me that an inordinately large number of threads were being moved to obscure places on the boards for what seemed NO good reason at all.
Actually, most of the other forums are not "obscure" in that they have a decent volume of traffic. Almost all of the D&D Fundamentals forums are fairly active, with the only exception being the 4e Combat forum, and I don't think I've transferred a thread there in months.
4e Rules Q&A, What's a DM to Do?, What's a Player to Do?, and Off-Topic Tavern are four of the most active forums on the D&D boards and that's to where the vast majority of 4e General threads are moved.
So I do take into consideration whether the forum to which I request a thread be transferred is sufficiently busy to encourage responses. The only forums, other than 4e Combat, which tends to have low traffic, are the forums specific to individual campaign worlds. We also rarely get Darksun, Greyhawk or Birthright threads in 4e General. Most often, I ask for those threads to be sent to Future Releases (as they are usually asking if a 4e version of the campaign setting is going to be released). Future Releases is also a very active forum.
So I don't think it's fair to claim that threads get moved to obscure forums. Almost every thread moved from 4e General is sent to a forum that is quite active.
I think that to Help with this, perhaps a stickied thread in the General forum
The people who post to the wrong forum generally don't read stickied threads. If they did, they wouldn't put stuff in General Discussion, because even the one-sentence description under each forum name would indicate to them they are posting in the wrong place. Heck, the 4e General Discussion description starts out "Can’t find what you’re looking for in one of our forums below?" clearly indicating that one should first check out the "forums below".
Also, the 4e General Discussion forum is already clogged with stickied threads. Four stickies is a lot. I wouldn't recommend adding any more.
Also, instead of Moved threads being reverted to standard font style...they should remain bold and instead be changed to a different color, so as to make them stand out.
First of all, the VCLs don't have the authority or ability to change the forum software in this way. Second, the folks who do that stuff are inordinately busy on a ton of other projects. They haven't even had time to move the 4e General Discussion to the bottom of Fundamentals, as was requested months ago.
It would be nice if a post in a moved thread had a brief explanation of why it was moved and why to the specific forum to which it was moved.
I'm an unpaid volunteer with a wife, kids and a full-time job. I barely have time to keep track of all the misplaced threads. I certainly don't have time to explain that the thread on paladins was moved to 4e Defenders because paladin are defenders. Most of the reasons for the moves should be fairly self-evident.
Finally...there are too many forums.
There really aren't. We examined this extensively when 4e was released, kept track of forum traffic for nine months and looked to see what was the best size for forums.
If we merge forums they will become too crowded and threads will egt pushed off the first page too quickly. Other than 4e Combat, 4e Character Development, and Astrid's Parlor, I think all the other forums in D&D Fundamentals and D&D Community are plenty busy.
What forums do you think should be merged or eliminated?
If we merge forums they will become too crowded and threads will egt pushed off the first page too quickly.
I know that I check these boards plenty during the day. (Any time I'm not doing something more important, and I have access to a computer with the internet.) As it is, I still have a hard time keeping up with them at times, and have to start looking at threads on page 2. Merging forums would mean that I would have to start with page 3 or 4 at the very least, which is not an attractive proposition.
Check it:
Edition Wars
Sub-forums:
-4e Balance
This is the place to argue over whether having a balanced game makes it less fun!
-4e Fluff
Is there too little? Or too much? Ignore others opinions will endlessly repeating your own!
-1e Grognards
Was D&D different when you were young? Tell those damn kids to get off your lawn here!
-4e = WoW
Which aspect of gaming has this popular MMORPG ruined for you lately? Tell us here!
-4e The Challenges of Skills
no profession: ski instructor omg wtf!!!
-4e Alignment Wars
Confuse your personal morality with a fictional universe here!
-4e Mindless Trolling
If you've never played 4E but would like to start a thirty page thread with your very first post, this is the place for you!
Actually Playing (When Not Busy Arguing)
Sub-forums:
-4e So Broken
Which new powers do you think are grossly overpowered? Demand errata here!
-4e Rules Lawyering
Read bizarre new interpretations into even the simplest rules here!
-My DM Sucks
Players, complain about your DMs here! DMs, yer doin it rong!
-My Players Suck
DMs, we feel your pain! Who is in charge here anyway? YOU!
-4e CharOp
Same as before.
Thinking About Spending Some Actual Money On Your Hobby
Sub-forums:
-Future Releases
C'mon, just a few more posts and they'll agree to do Greyhawk as a campaign setting!
-DDI Sucks!
This is the place to threaten to cancel your subscription.
-This Book Sucks!
Did they totally nerf the pally? Gripe about it here!
-Miniatures Suck!
This is the place to complain about those tiny pieces of plastic that you dropped HOW MUCH ON?!? HOLY CRAP. Dude, I just use bottle-caps.
-WotC Generally Sucks
Thank goodness they still host these forums for you to complain about them in
General
-Astrid's Parlor
If there WERE any girls actually playing D&D, this place will have scared them off by now!
-Everything Else
All other threads that are actually new, informative, helpful, intelligent or insightful go here.
It should go without saying, but since some people around here seem to struggle with the concept: THIS POST WAS WRITTEN WITH TONGUE FIRMLY IMPLANTED IN CHEEK. It is a lighthearted attempt at humor and should be treated as such. Thanks!
The last Forum would have all of 1 or 2 Threads that were active at any given time. It would be amazing. :D
That was hilarious. On the Miniatures forum proposal, the funny thing is I actually do use bottlecaps just to avoid spending extra cash on plastic minis.
I use Starburst candies when I run a game for my kids.
They enjoy feasting on the monsters they slay!
I use Starburst candies when I run a game for my kids.
They enjoy feasting on the monsters they slay!
Now that's what I call rewarding treasure! Those kobolds were delicious.
VA: heck yes... sometimes it's like a freaking echo chamber in here.
In other news, this post has, inevitably, been moved.
I use Starburst candies when I run a game for my kids.
They enjoy feasting on the monsters they slay!
-That's pretty awesome. Definite incentive to kill monsters.
Guys, I've got the solution. I've figured out a new forum structure for this messageboard that I modestly suggest will solve ALL our problems.
Check it:
It should go without saying, but since some people around here seem to struggle with the concept: THIS POST WAS WRITTEN WITH TONGUE FIRMLY IMPLANTED IN CHEEK. It is a lighthearted attempt at humor and should be treated as such. Thanks!
Now that was worth reading for entertainment. Now, even though it's tongue-in-cheek, with some name changing and more appropriately Politically Correct (retches violently) descriptions, this would actually be the best format ever.
I feel for the VCLs, but to me that simply means that perhaps it shouldn't be a volunteer thing and should instead be a dedicated position for however many people are necessary. As for those who manage the digital aspect of the forums and their other projects, some of them should perhaps be relegated to forum duty only.
That said...perhaps it would be better to scrap all of these forums entirely? I think I'd rather have all those people working exclusively on DDI or something else more useful. Other message boards have often been cited as better places to present ideas and seek advice anyway. Frankly, all I do when I come here is argue with people who don't know anything, and that's not even what I come for. I rarely present any of my own ideas because the point of them always seems to be completely missed. The sheer volume of broken and/or completely pointless homebrew that comes out of these forums is staggering. If there are already better places to discuss more worthwhile things, perhaps we should all stick to those places instead and let this tired little corner of the internet sink to the depths.
I'll let the topic die anyway though. If everyone else wants to continue, be my guest, I'm not particularly interested in what's likely to follow.
Sorry, I meant to specifically respond to Shiftkitty, and it got lost in the weeked hubbub at my house.
The Rituals, Equipment and Magic Items forum is for discussion of pretty much any object or service on which you can spend coin. I really like that thread and had been considering that it should be stickied in the RE&MI forum.
I hope I do it because I think it's the most appropriate place for the discussion.
Okay! Now I gotcha! I'd be flattered if it got stickied! ;) (I was kind of chuckling imagining employees listed as "equipment", but then I remember that some companies list individual employees as "assets" or "liabilities", and I realized it probably wasn't that far off!)
Yay! I was worried that it was getting buried too far down the topic list for anyone to find if they needed it! Thank you!
:invasion: Thanks! I be muchly flattered!