mxyzplk;15705277 wrote:
So you know guys, if you really are going to start pushing Gleemax etc. as an important revenue stream and community site for yourselves - you might want to consider participating here *before* sites like ENWorld. If that's where I'm going to get the straight dope and earlier, then why log in here at all?
99.99999% of WotC 4E marketing thus far *has* been here on its own site. Months of previews, blogs, excerpts, etc. I haven't seen any of that stuff elsewhere.
Sometimes, yes, WotC does focus marketing efforts elsewhere because, well, that's the whole point of marketing. Apple doesn't advetise the iPhone solely in its own corporate headquarters' visitors lobby.
As far as "communicating with the community" via messagebaord posts, which is an infinitesimally tiny part of WotC marketing efforts, we're all fans and customers of WotC and we all deserve to be spoken to. Just because your question wasn't answered doesn't mean that WotC stff don't make a LOT of posts here on the official boards - do a search for posts by members with "WotC" in their name, and then do the same at EN World. You'll be surprised at the results.
Notably the issue which seems to have given rise to your complaint is the GSL, which is - at least from WotC's POV at present - a publisher issue primarly; so they're answering the publishers in the locations where those publishers hang out - which one would normally consider good customer service. I guess somebody had to find fault with that though! I guess they can't win whatever they do.
Any marketing strategy which relies on the customer to seek you out (i.e. limiting it to your own wesbite) is one which wil fail. You have to go out there and put the information in front of people, not wait in your ivory tower for them to come to you. I'd argue that WotC still concentrates too much marketing here on the oficial site and not enough elsewhere, not the other way round as you appear to perceive.
little articles give a little bit, but really other important parts of information are in the form of some "exclusive" on another site, and not even repeated here.
They are? What sites are runing these exclusives?
Thus far I can testify that EN World has not, as yet, received a single exclusive in any shape or form whatsoever. I can testify that loads of previews and excerpts from the PHB, DMG and MM have appeared here on wizards.com.
Certainly most info found at EN World is compiled from wizards.com posts and articles.
I'd be curious to hear where these exclusives are? Which sites?
So you know guys, if you really are going to start pushing Gleemax etc. as an important revenue stream and community site for yourselves - you might want to consider participating here *before* sites like ENWorld. If that's where I'm going to get the straight dope and earlier, then why log in here at all?
When it comes to Community Management, we want to support our community in any and every campground it chooses to pitch it's tent. The official D&D forums that we're having this conversation on, should be as open and welcoming to as many people as possible, especially those who are new(er) to the game. We try to be very broad in our appeal, providing as much information as possible.
However, we know that certain parts of the community will find sites and forums more specialized to be of greater value to to them.
For example, ENWorld has really established itself (IMO) as the leading "Industry Discussion" site. You'll find many publishers/designers, would-be publishers/designers, and other folks who are interested in thinking and talking about the RPG business itself. That's not to say that there isn't a lot of other good information on the site, it's just that the Industry Insider angle is one that ENWorld does better than others.
However, the level of conversations on ENWorld can often be quite daunting for novices. There are some people who will show up on forums looking for some extremely basic information ("What's the difference between a Paladin and a Fighter?") and they will tend get two entirely different responses if they posted the same question on the Wizards site and on ENWorld. Both will likely be interesting discussions, but one will probably be of more value to a novice, and the other of more value to a game designer.
We'll have new community members come to the Wizards forums and start reading up and becoming very interested in the community and the product. These folks may eventually find that they want a different level of conversation that isn't quite as easy to get on our forums, and decide to check out ENWorld. They may find the place filled with kindred souls and pitch their tent there, coming to the Wizard's forums only rarely.
This is awesome when it happens. A community site has filled the need that a member in the community has, and done it much better than WotC itself could have ever done. In the end, it's a huge win for everyone involved.
Of course, we also have to be careful that we don't make it seem like people on the WotC site are second class citizens and battle any perception that another site like ENWorld, gets all the exclusives, staff posts, etc.
My job is to try and manage all of this so that we're taking care of the entire community the best we can. In some cases, this might mean finding something exclusive for ENWorld. (and while Morrus may be technically correct about exclusives, I intentionally didn't promote the D&D XP interviews with Gerdie and Liz on any of our pages or forums because I wanted ENWorld to carry the story, since it was their folks who were kind enough to sit down and talk to GRZ on camera) In other cases, it may mean picking up a poking stick and walking around the office poking people to remind them that the whole of the RPG doesn't live exclusively on ENWorld, and that we need to support our entire community.
Bottom line is that while mxyzplk's view of this case may not be correct, his point is one worth keeping in mind. We don't want to neglect ANY portion of our community if we can help it. WotC and the Community both win if we can achieve that.
Of course, we also have to be careful that we don't make it seem like people on the WotC site are second class citizens and battle any perception that another site like ENWorld, gets all the exclusives, staff posts, etc.
That's easily solved; just point out that it doesn't! :D
As an experiment, I just looked at the links currently showing on EN World's news page to information; not a perfect metric, but an easily accessible one. We show the last 7 days.
I'll note that the last 7 days has been very GSL/publisher-centric, so this is atypically high for EN World.
- Links to blogs, or posts here or on on Gleemax: 12*
- Extensive articles, interviews, videos or previews on WotC's site: 5
- Links to posts by WotC on EN World: 9 (all GSL related)
- Exclusive previews, articles or interviews at EN World: 0
- Links to WotC marketing elsewhere (eg ICV2 interviews, GAMA info, etc): 3
*A search on these boards reveals that's only a fraction of WotC posting here.
As you can see it's a non-issue. It's strongly in favour of WotC's own website. In a non-GSL dominated week, it would be overwhelmingly so. If you went back over material since August (GenCon), you get figures something like 90% WotC's own site, 5% EN World, 5% elsewhere.
Don't get distracted by the concept that just because someone's own pet question was discussed elsewhere and that person happens to be vocally aggressive, that that person's view represents reality in any way.
I don't have a problem with the situation as it is; WotC is welcome to conduct its marketing however it wishes. I just get mildly annoyed when people portray any tiny hint of presence on my site as overwhelming evidence that WotC ignores its own site (read: ignores "them", which is what it really comes down to).
As I said before, anyway, it's marketing. You don't market solely in your own office. You pro-actively go out and spread the word.
When it was announced that the magazine license was not being renewed with Paizo, WotC staffers chose to post on ENWorld well before they posted here. It didn't seem to matter that the community here wanted answers, wanted to vent, had questions, and so on. Bill S (and probably others) opted to go to another site, rather than supporting their own site.
I'm certain there've been other instances, but I don't recall them specifically.
Here's an example of WotC staff running to ENWorld rather than posting here:
When it was announced that the magazine license was not being renewed with Paizo, WotC staffers chose to post on ENWorld well before they posted here. It didn't seem to matter that the community here wanted answers, wanted to vent, had questions, and so on. Bill S (and probably others) opted to go to another site, rather than supporting their own site.
I'm certain there've been other instances, but I don't recall them specifically.
What, you're saying that the majority of D&D Insider related news (that being the magzine's replacement) has been at EN World?!?!
Tried typing www.dndinsider.com into your browser recently? Where do you end up? How much stuff is there there?
This conversation is getting silly and not relating to reality. Not sure why I'm even having it.
Good luck, Mike.
My job is to try and manage all of this so that we're taking care of the entire community the best we can.
I don't want to dimish the rest of this post, but have nothing really to add save for what is touched on below in regards to this statement.
Gamer_Zer0 Gamer_Zer0
Community Manager
Mike Lescault
Online Communities Manager
Wizards of the Coast
I am guessing maybe here, but I recall somewhere saying "Liason" rather than manager.
What is the difference and why the change in job titles?
IF the position here at WotC is running the forums basically, then that makes since. Where does the "Online Communities" part come into play?
So you are responsible for not only D&D/WotC forums, but all forums regarding WotC IP?
Seems like a big job, and one WotC itself cannot give to you to begin with, as they do not run every other forum/online comminity.
In the interest of getting information out, it is good that you want to hit a broad audience to let more people know about D&D. That is what advertising is for. Is it best to give specific information in places where people may not know about D&D well enough to decipher the information given? If the reader needs to know integral parts of past editions to understand what is being talked about then how does hitting them with this specifics help them any?
The term Liason, may have been a COI with your GRZ. While the GRZ may have its place and some exclusibity for certain things, you are an employe of WotC, so WotC should have known this.
In the drive for this whole Gleemax (
), then the prime focus on giving informaiton on specifics should be WotC's home turf, regardless of the rest of the industry people go and read. If you want people to use DDI and Gleemax then it must have your attention and devotion to make it the premiere source for D&D information.That means then things like this [ http://icv2.com/articles/news/12449.html ] should be known to you as the liason/manager so you can have it linked or reported on the website here at WotC for people to be able to find.
Enworld is nice for collecting a lot of information and getting looks into the makers of games ideas, but gamers want their games information, not always opinons of third parties.
I keep hearing so much focus on this and that, etc about how the new edition was made, but hardly do I see focus in getting this information to the gamers. Since the enw edition is supposed to be more concise, quicker to lookup, quicker to play, etc; I find it funny that getting information on it requires tedious searching of the internet to find some hidden information in a corner of the internet you don't usually visit, by luckily scouring Goggle for the page that didn't pay to have itself listed first in the search engine, but rather relies on actual number of page hits.
With regards to the DDI, as part of the Community Manager shouldn't you be making sure that the website is working corretly and has the correct things? Not just for D&D, but all other games. As those things most always link back to these forums. So you should be a part of that process as well, and know what is coming next so you can tell them what information needs to be included, or make sure something is ready on time for the community.
Example: 4th edition forums started and you had many threas in place for discussion of various topics. Current articles have a link to discuss them from the DDI but nothing there. You have to hunt and search for the topic, or multitude of threads on the topic; IF the link sends you to the correct subforum. Wherein the simple creation of a thread and linking to it would mean a dedicated place to discuss the articles.
It seems somewhere along the lines someone misunderstands a job description. Either WotC has slapped you with an all encompassing title that does not really fit the duties of the job, the community itself has been misinformed about what yourself and others responsibilites are in regards to "dealing with" the community, or yourself possibly got in way over your head with the things you were already doing (GRZ) and having extra things added.
Somewhere along the lines there is some confusion. In all that, there is one constant. No one should be expected to go to a retail store website to find the chemical sheet information for some glue product, they should go to the manufacturers website. Likewise they shouldn't have to go other places to find information about D&D, they should go to the manufacturers website.
I hope the 4th edition books that are now coming off the presses aren't this bogged down with hunting all over the palce to get the information as the online information has been handled.
What, you're saying that the majority of D&D Insider related news (that being the magzine's replacement) has been at EN World?!?!
Tried typing www.dndinsider.com into your browser recently? Where do you end up? How much stuff is there there?
This conversation is getting silly and not relating to reality. Not sure why I'm even having it.
Good luck, Mike.
No, Zherog is suggesting that the WotC staff often have initial discussions regarding decisions and announcement clarifications on the enworld forums and only later is official word posted on the WotC site and forums.
His example of magazine licensing was a case in point as was the more recent example of the discussion regarding GSL terms and conditions.
In the second case, the discussion on enworld is more understandable since it was partly sparked by third-party developers discussing the ramifications of the terms.
No, Zherog is suggesting that the WotC staff often have initial discussions regarding decisions and announcement clarifications on the enworld forums and lonly later is official word is posted on the WotC site and forums.
His example of magazine licensing was a case in point as was the more recent example of the discussion regarding GSL terms and conditions.
In the second case, the discussion on enworld is more understandable since it was partly sparked by third-party developers discussing the ramifications of the terms.
Right, rather than WotC personnel running to answer these thiings on other websites, they could mention them here, and direct the discussion to their own site, where people could find it easier that come HERE for the information. Not to diminish the value of ENWorld, but is it owned by WotC? Does WotC have a responsibility to keep it running?
WotC does have a responsibility to its own website. The mention of "many dollars spent" by SCott Rouse in regards to the GSL and "wanting to support our newest product", should have some part of that money spent on these very forums here.
If WotC is going to treat the customers worse and worse at each step, and not even in passing devoted a few minutes to say something on these forums to get discussion started here with the facts first, rather than rampant speculation gathered form other area,s then they have no reason to complain when things like the Slashdot article appear, or any other mass confusion.
It isn't that hard to make a post here any more than one on ENWorld. Just quote those, and copy them here like many of the helpful users do.
I think a portion of any money I spend on 4th edition should go to people like Polaris for helping gather this information up HERE at WotC forums for people to be able to then go and find.
Seriously, are these forums, the users of them, and the gamers important at all to WotC?
None of this is directly targetting ENWorld, but it is one of the largest places and most known for collecting the new information so it is being used as one of many examples. I don't post there, because I don't need to discus the same thing on 400 forums. I also don't like the black background with gold-ish words so I don't enjoy reading the site that much, but that is personal preference of asthetics and readablility.
I think many people would just like to know, "Where is the exclusive discussion about D&D and its related elements here on WotC forums where those personnel take as much time as they do on ENWorld to answer questions about things; and why are the WotC forums treated as second class to these other locations in the interest of building a community here?"
. Not to diminish the value of ENWorld, but is it owned by WotC?
That, frankly is the point.
"Where is the exclusive discussion about D&D and its related elements here on WotC forums where those personnel take as much time as they do on ENWorld to answer questions about things; and why are the WotC forums treated as second class to these other locations in the interest of building a community here?"
They're not. Search. Count. Most official posts are here. All official information is here. The fact that WotC occasionally speak to people other than here doesn't change that.
The situation people are trying to conjure doesn't exist.
Seriously, are these forums, the users of them, and the gamers important at all to WotC?
I assume that all customers of WotC are equally important; and that an awful lot of people would be very offended at any suggestion otherwise.
What forum you registered on is not a contributory factor to your customer-ship. People here are no more D&D fans than people elsewhere; or, more importantly, from WotC's POV, are no more likely to spend money on WotC's products than those elsewhere.
Being registered here doesn't make one special or more entitled to anything.
We're all D&D fans. We're all customers.
And find more exmaples Morrus try searching the forums here, becasue there is a slight imblance in the way the desingers post here vs there.
Just a quick question for both Morrus and Z "Where exactly was the frist post announcing the cancleation of the D&D mag made?" Here or at Enworld?
Neither. It was made by Paizo, the Dragon/Dungeon licensees, at Paizo.com. Freaky, eh? Who'd believe it?
And find more exmaples Morrus try searching the forums here, becasue there is a slight imblance in the way the desingers post here vs there.
Without wanting to repeat myself, I'm assuming you haven't actually done this. Because, as I indicated earlier, doing so disproves your point in a very conclusive (i.e. 10:1) fashion. :D
Neither. It was made by Paizo, the Dragon/Dungeon licensees, at Paizo.com. Freaky, eh? Who'd believe it?
I see you sitll missed both of Z's and my points about the staffers chosing Enworld over thire own site.....
Empishies mine :
Here's an example of WotC staff running to ENWorld rather than posting here:
When it was announced that the magazine license was not being renewed with Paizo, WotC staffers chose to post on ENWorld well before they posted here. It didn't seem to matter that the community here wanted answers, wanted to vent, had questions, and so on. Bill S (and probably others) opted to go to another site, rather than supporting their own site.
I'm certain there've been other instances, but I don't recall them specifically.
No one should be expected to go to a retail store website to find the chemical sheet information for some glue product, they should go to the manufacturers website. Likewise they shouldn't have to go other places to find information about D&D, they should go to the manufacturers website.
And anyone who expect their own corporate website to be their sole source of marketing is on a straight path to bankruptcy.
Marketing. Meaning: getting the word out.
If you're here, you already know about it. Otherwise you wouldn't be here.
I see you sitll missed both of Z's and my points about the staffers chosing Enworld over thire own site.....
Empishies mine :
Except they didn't. Link, please?
Not that choosing to market at a place other than their own site wouldn't be a very intelligent thing to do; nevertheless, they didn't.
Except they didn't. Link, please?
Well,why don't you go find it :P and maybe Z can provide a link, btw I don't go to enowrld,cuz i can get my info here after it gets psoted there,lol and I'm glad your chosing to defend your site.
Here's an example of WotC staff running to ENWorld rather than posting here:
When it was announced that the magazine license was not being renewed with Paizo, WotC staffers chose to post on ENWorld well before they posted here.
WotC management explained this one explicitly. WotC wanted to give Paizo the lead on the entire announcement, giving that publisher full ability to form a response and get the word out in a manner that it felt would be best. WotC purposely did NOT mention the change here until it had the full go=ahead from Paizo. ENWorld, however, was neutral ground on which individuals could respond to comments and questions without violating the gag order at WotC.
The interim time frame was perhaps two days. In internet time, that is three times the life cycle of a story.
The volume of posts here is much, much higher than over at ENWorld. In addition to this much higher volume, the posts are less focused. At ENWorld, there are fewer threads, so WotC staffers posting there (often on their own time, check the time stamps of all the GSL posts) *appear* to be posting there more often.
When you add to that the more strict moderation policy there, it is IMO, especially given the strong feelings about 4E, a much more friendly place for WotC staffers to post. I look at the C&C forum, as well as some of the spillover into other 4E forums, and see *very* little of that at the ENWorld forums.
Added last sentence
Well,why don't you go find it :P and maybe Z can provide a link, btw I don't go to enowrld,cuz i can get my info here after it gets psoted there,lol and I'm glad your chosing to defend your site.
You want me to find a link to something that I maintain doesn't exist?
Don't hold your breath.
First, well, WotC staffers do post a lot more often at Gleemax than at EN World. I think the perception that, in raw numbers, EN World gets more attention is erroneous.
Second, there's just different needs between the two sites. At EN World, there's a big cluster of 3rd party publishers and fans thereof. I don't know if it's true demographically, but I get the sense that EN World has more GMs, and Gleemax has more players. I don't know if the typical Gleemax poster is as interested in what's going on with the GSL, for instance.
Third, this is WotC's site. WotC's people on WotC's site are more constrained as to what they can say. They have to follow the party line. At EN World and other sites, maybe there's a little more freedom. *shrug* I'm not sure whether that's actually a factor, but it might explain why some things go up at EN World, and some go up at Gleemax.
Heck, that brings up a fourth point. If WotC really wanted to have fun, they could leak more info to EN World first, see how people respond, and then potentially revise how they present the information when they release it on their own site. Consider it "PR Playtesting." Fewer people see EN World than WotC's own site, so it's like a proving ground for how to present the new material.
And finally, like Morrus said, it's a good idea for WotC to diversify where they're putting out information. Laying tidbits on other sites gets people interested enough to check on the main WotC site. It's like leaving a lot of breadcrumb trails back to the cottage, so that WotC gets to eat up all sorts of gamers, not just those who hang out near witches.
(Bad analogy?)
Oh, and an almost fanatical loyalty to the Pope.
I do think that Wizards should generally tell their people "if you're going to annouce official/semi-official stuff you should do it in both places simultaneously at least." The Gleemaxers, or Gleemoids, or whatever the big green brain calls them, *do* have a right to be grumpy about that...
1) Fact - As a general rule 99% of all new D&D news and information directly from Wizards is posted here on these boards.
2) Fact - As a rare exception 1% of all new D&D news and information directly from Wizards is posted on other boards like EnWorld, and usually those involve third party publisher news like Paizo and the GSL, so WOTC posts in the place where you find a lot of those third party publishers (like EnWorld).
However, some folks have chosen to just mention the 1% exceptions to the general rule, and claim that the 1% exception is representative of the whole, ignoring the 99% of stuff that is first posted here. Like pretty much every sneak preview of 4e thus far.
Guys, you're contention would be more persuasive if you admitted you were focusing on the minority and not the majority of annoucements.
The volume of posts here is much, much higher than over at ENWorld. In addition to this much higher volume, the posts are less focused. At ENWorld, there are fewer threads, so WotC staffers posting there (often on their own time, check the time stamps of all the GSL posts) *appear* to be posting there more often.
When you add to that the more strict moderation policy there, it is IMO, especially given the strong feelings about 4E, a much more friendly place for WotC staffers to post.
The average typical EN World poster is older (which means more experienced, and also smarter, wiser & better looking), and thus EN World tends to have better content. So over there you get less dross to shovel through in search of good content, and you also get better responses.
(This is not to put down the WotC forums entirely. There are several things that the WotC forums do better: CharOp is a shining example of a self-policed community that doesn't tolerate idiocy, and puts out some truly sterling content. The Star Wars forum has been decent since Saga came out, too.)
If I were a WotC designer, I'd feel much more comfortable chatting over there than on here. You get far fewer people accusing you of doing things they can't back up, for example.
Cheers, -- N
WotC indicates that there won't be a response this week and maybe not next week either... http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4184637&postcount=64
So you know guys, if you really are going to start pushing Gleemax etc. as an important revenue stream and community site for yourselves - you might want to consider participating here *before* sites like ENWorld. If that's where I'm going to get the straight dope and earlier, then why log in here at all?
That link appears to be to a post that gives no actual information.
(Interesting - Three people in this thread registered for these boards in March 2001, and none further back.)
I am guessing maybe here, but I recall somewhere saying "Liason" rather than manager.
What is the difference and why the change in job titles?
Community Manager has always been my title, (Solice's too). When I first started, the WizOs gave me the custom title "Community Liaison", and I've been too lazy to have it changed. Recently, WotC_Michelle was testing some stuff as I was looking over her shoulder, and she was using my account as an example, and I said, "Oh, while we're here, let's make my title correct."
A Community Manager can be the liaison for one or more titles. Right now, I'm the liaison for D&D stuff, while Solice is the liaison for Magic the Gathering stuff. There are also other brands, such as Axis and Allies, Books, MapleStory, etc, that we support as Community Managers, but don't actively act as the liaison for.
A Community Manager is responsible for a large variety of things involved in supporting community, whereas the Liaison role is focused on providing information and collecting feedback about a product or service. For all intents and purposes, the distinction is a moot one.
IF the position here at WotC is running the forums basically, then that makes since. Where does the "Online Communities" part come into play?
So you are responsible for not only D&D/WotC forums, but all forums regarding WotC IP?
Solice has MTG, MO, all the other TCG games, as well as Digital Games, and the new heading of Gaming Culture that is coming with our forum reorg. I have D&D, D&Di, Star Wars, all other RPGs, all Minis, all board games, and books. Solice also has the Gleemax Blog site while I manage the VCL/FL program.
So we have it split up fairly well, but they'll always be much more work than any two (or three or five) people can handle.
Seems like a big job, and one WotC itself cannot give to you to begin with, as they do not run every other forum/online comminity.
Yeah, that's kind of a good way of thinking about it. When it comes to stuff internally, on our forums, and such, my role is as the Community Manager as well as the liaison. On places like Enworld and other spots, it's really just the liaison specific roles of communication and collecting feedback.
I keep hearing so much focus on this and that, etc about how the new edition was made, but hardly do I see focus in getting this information to the gamers. Since the enw edition is supposed to be more concise, quicker to lookup, quicker to play, etc; I find it funny that getting information on it requires tedious searching of the internet to find some hidden information in a corner of the internet you don't usually visit, by luckily scouring Goggle for the page that didn't pay to have itself listed first in the search engine, but rather relies on actual number of page hits.
We're just finishing up an update to the Gamer Radio Zer0 page ( www.wizards.com/grz ) that will have a news section so I can put daily updates on informaiton. This would allow me to link to interesting articles in the press, features posted on our website, blog posts made by designers, and replies and other information posted by WotC staff on other sites like EnWorld. I'm hoping it will allow folks to more easily find the news they are looking for, regardless of whether it's on our site or on an outside community site.
With regards to the DDI, as part of the Community Manager shouldn't you be making sure that the website is working corretly and has the correct things? Not just for D&D, but all other games. As those things most always link back to these forums. So you should be a part of that process as well, and know what is coming next so you can tell them what information needs to be included, or make sure something is ready on time for the community.
Yeah, everything should work smoothly and seemlessly and we're moving towards that goal. But we have a team of site managers and site developers who work on this stuff full time, so it's not something the CM team manages directly.
It seems somewhere along the lines someone misunderstands a job description. Either WotC has slapped you with an all encompassing title that does not really fit the duties of the job, the community itself has been misinformed about what yourself and others responsibilites are in regards to "dealing with" the community, or yourself possibly got in way over your head with the things you were already doing (GRZ) and having extra things added.
Somewhere along the lines there is some confusion. In all that, there is one constant. No one should be expected to go to a retail store website to find the chemical sheet information for some glue product, they should go to the manufacturers website. Likewise they shouldn't have to go other places to find information about D&D, they should go to the manufacturers website.
I think I am always way over my head. =) But what fun would it be if there wasn't too many things to do? Seriously though, you raise a good point, and that's one of the main reason I want to get the GRZ News page up and running. So even if the news is in a variety of areas, they is one place where they can find links to most or all of it.
The average typical EN World poster is older (which means more experienced, and also smarter, wiser & better looking), and thus EN World tends to have better content. So over there you get less dross to shovel through in search of good content, and you also get better responses.
The age benefit is also, IMO, that they are less likely to respond to trolling/baiting posts with an attack of their own. They are more likely to ignore the troll, report the troll, and continue on with discussion of the topics at hand.
Except they didn't. Link, please?
Not that choosing to market at a place other than their own site wouldn't be a very intelligent thing to do; nevertheless, they didn't.
I don't have a link, because I don't know how to find things on your site. But here's the text -- it was on your "front" page at one point.
Show
As promised, here is the interview with WotC. Apparently, with so many people away at the GAMA tradeshow, it took a few days to get this together over email. One thing to note is that, in several places, Scott, Chris and Bill ask for opinions on what people would like to see happening regarding the planned online content model, and that they'll be watching the forums to see what people have to say. So, if you do have any thoughts, please feel free to drop in on the messageboards and have your say.
First of all Scott, welcome to EN World! Thanks for taking us up on our offer to speak to our readers. We know you've been getting a lot of heat on the boards lately and we understand from your email that you have browsed our site for some time. I’m sure I speak for all of us when I say that we hope to see you, and your fellow staffers at WotC, patrolling the virtual halls more often.
Scott Rouse, Senior Brand Manager for D&D: Glad to be here. In addition to myself, Bill Slavicsek (Director of R&D for D&D) and Chris Perkins (D&D Design Manager) are here to help answer your questions. We use a lot of different avenues to get a feel for what’s happening in the community, including message boards, product response cards, news sites, surveys, distributors and retailers, and our personal interaction with people at events and conventions. We have a lot of respect and appreciation of the EN World community and we’ll definitely poke our heads in from time to time.
Thank you for making time to answer these questions, which have been collected from fans on the EN World message boards and then compiled into - I hope - some semblance of order! I’ve tried to divide them into broad topical areas to make things a little easier. I hope you’ll feel free to expand on any areas where you feel the questions don’t quite hit the mark.
Scott: We have done our best to answer all the questions you have asked. There are some things we aren’t ready to reveal yet, but feel free to discuss what has been said, throw around ideas, and post your wish lists. We’ll work to incorporate everyone’s ideas into our plans as best we can.
Before we start, it would be great if you could introduce yourself, and tell us what it is a Senior brand Manager does at WotC? I understand also that other WotC staffers will be answering some of these questions, so if any of them feel like introducing themselves quickly, please feel free!
Scott: I’m the Senior Brand Manager for D&D. My team of five manages the marketing, product development, licensing, and overall business for D&D roleplaying and miniatures products.
I started work at Wizards of the Coast seven years ago. My first position was Associate Promotions Manager of Magic: The Gathering. Over the course of three years, I climbed the ranks to M:TG Brand Manger. I have also worked on Duel Masters, GI Joe, Legend of the Five Rings, and in New Business Development. I joined the D&D Brand Team in December, 2005, and have worked closely with Bill and the rest of the D&D team ever since.
Bill Slavicsek, Director of R&D for D&D: I lead the creative strategy and tactics for all things related to Dungeons & Dragons here at Wizards of the Coast, including roleplaying games, miniatures, and novels. My team works with Scott’s to craft business and creative strategies, then Scott’s team executes on the business tactics and my team executes on the creative tactics – in other words, we make the products.
I’ve been a game designer and editor for more than 20 years, working at West End Games and later TSR. For the past 10 years, I have been leading the creative process for D&D. My credits include a wide-range of roleplaying game and boardgame products, including the Eberron Campaign Setting and Dungeons & Dragons for Dummies.
Chris Perkins, D&D Design Manager: I report to Bill and oversee the game designers and editors that work on D&D products. I’m also leading the tactical planning and execution for our online offerings, making sure that they correspond directly to our physical products. Our creative team features the top talent in the industry, including Rich Baker, Logan Bonner, Bart Carroll, Michele Carter, Jennifer Clarke Wilkes, Andy Collins, Bruce Cordell, Rob Heinsoo, Gwen Kestrel, Mike Mearls, Kim Mohan, Dave Noonan, Steve Schubert, Matt Sernett, Chris Sims, Chris Thomasson, Rodney Thompson, Rob Watkins, Steve Winter, and James Wyatt.
I started out as a freelancer, writing dozens of adventures for Dungeon magazine. I was Editor-in-Chief of Dungeon magazine from 1997 to 2000, at which point I joined Bill’s R&D team.
First of all, were you surprised by the amount of emotion pouring out from fans in the last few days? What was the expected reaction from the online community?
Scott: No, we weren’t surprised by the reaction. We understand the emotions rippling through the community. In fact, there are a lot of people here at WotC that share those same emotions. Many of the people working on Bill’s team started their careers on the magazines, and it’s tough for some of them to accept the news. For those working on the online versions there is also a high level of excitement. We know that fans will have mixed reactions to this new format, but we hope that people will get excited as we begin to fully share the details of our plans.
Given that you have a new online content plan which, presumably, is set to “replace” the licensed magazine format, do you feel it was a good idea, publicity-wise, to announce the end of DRAGON and DUNGEON before, if not the imminent launch of the new service, but even any serious promotion or marketing of it?
Bill: The decision to make the announcement at this time was worked out with Paizo, and at their request. Paizo has subscribers, printers, advertisers and circulation partners who all needed to know what was going on. As for the WotC part of all this, we never had any intention of launching our efforts before Paizo’s run with the magazines was complete. And, while we cannot yet share all the details of what’s to come, more information will be revealed before the last issues of Dungeon and Dragon magazines hit the stands.
Our understanding at present is that the online content is set to replace the magazines. What factors were involved in the decision to replace one with the other, rather than to allow the two media - the online platform and the magazines - to co-exist?
Chris: Our online content plans will replace the printed magazines. That aside, we are still very much in the business of producing printed products.
Bill: I also want to take a moment to quell some related rumors. D&D is not going away. In no way do our plans call for the end of face-to-face tabletop gaming. We are not making an MMORPG. We will continue to produce printed, for-sale, published products.
Rumors of the online content have floated around in a low-key manner for some time now; however, the cancellation of the magazines was seen as a complete surprise. How long has this particular move been circulating at WotC?
Scott: More than a year ago, after much discussion, WotC and Paizo mutually agreed to let the contract expire at the end of the current license. We extended that license a few months so that things like the current Adventure Path could reach a natural conclusion.
At what level was this decision made? While I’m not trying to get you to put forward a scapegoat, I’m curious as to the decision-making process behind it.
Bill: This decision followed the same process as anything we do related to D&D. Creative endeavors originate on my team, business initiatives originate on the Brand Team, and at the end of the day myself and the Brand Director come together to agree on a course of action, then we submit our plans to senior management for ultimate approval.
Would it be true to say that WotC communicates with the online community to a much lesser degree than it did in years past? Of course, we can all be nostalgic for the days when Monte Cook, Ryan Dancey, et al wandered the virtual halls of the internet, speaking with the fans on a regular basis; is there a particular change in WotC’s corporate culture which has discouraged this in recent years?
Scott: While WotC staff may not be as responsive on the boards as we were in the past, everyone on the product development and business teams reads the boards regularly, and we often discuss the postings and suggestions in various team meetings.
Chris: That said, we’re working to make WotC R&D and Brand team members more accessible and visible online, and this interview is a beginning step toward that long-term goal. We’re excited by this opportunity and look forward to participating more fully in the future.
What can an online platform offer to the customer that a magazine cannot?
Chris: We have a lot of ideas that we’re happy with, but let me turn the question around. What would you hope for? What would make this exciting and useful for you? Another question for the community: How much of the magazine content were you able to use in your campaign? How much work did you have to do to accomplish that? If this new incarnation of the magazines could encompass anything you could want, what would that be?
Would it be fair to say that the new platform will contain enough content to replace both DRAGON and DUNGEON magazines?
Bill: Yes, and more. The constraints of the printed page go away when we transfer this particular kind of content to an online platform.
Can we expect to see support for WotC’s games other than D&D? For example, d20 Modern, Star Wars, or DDM? What about older D&D settings, such as Greyhawk, Dark Sun and others?
Chris: We’re working on content details now, and we’re certainly interested in what the community thinks. It’s fair to say that all things related to D&D will be part of our content. We value all of our settings and the history behind them, and we’re fans of all these worlds, too. But we have to find a way to deliver this kind of content without fracturing our audience, which I believe was one of the factors that led to the end of 2nd Edition. As for non-D&D content, those plans are still being evaluated.
Which aspects of DRAGON and DUNGEON are owned by Paizo, and which by WotC? For example, does WotC own the title "Class Acts" or "Sage Advice"? And does Paizo own "Adventure Path"? Can we expect to see continuations of any regular DRAGON articles or columns in electronic format?
Scott: Everything produced by Paizo under the license agreement is owned by Wizards of the Coast, with the exception of some of the cartoons and certain articles that use other people’s trademarks or copyrights. For example, The Order of the Stick cartoon isn’t owned by either WotC or Paizo, but by Rich Burlew.
Chris: We expect some of the columns and features to continue, some to evolve, and new features to appear as well.
The big question: when can we expect to see the new online content?
Bill: Soon. As stated, Paizo keeps publishing until issue #150 and #359. We don’t want to get in the way of that. Keep an eye on our website for more details.
It’s hard to phrase questions about the purchasing model without knowing the basic setup. This means that some of the following questions may be rendered redundant by a previous question, or the answers may overlap. Apologies in advance if you find yourself repeating yourself:
Scott: So there is a big block of questions here [below] that cover the “how” as in “how will you do this stuff online?” There is quite a bit here that we can’t really get into yet because details are either in flux and may change several times or we just can’t talk about yet. So what we have done here is try to talk about our thoughts at this point in time and provide detail wherever we can.
Another question hidden here is why don’t we have our plans ready now to share with the audience, just like Paizo did? Paizo needed to have information available now to discuss things important to their subscribers, such as what happens to their money. That’s a much more important and timely message at this moment than what WotC plans to do down the road. We will tell you. Have no fears about that. But the message has to come at the right time, and that time isn’t today.
What sort of purchase model will you be using? Will the online content be a subscription plan, or a la carte purchases of selected items?
In the case of a magazine, we can flick through it in the store before we decide whether or not we want it. How do you plan to compensate for that lack of “previewability”?
If it is possible for me to buy a single “issue” of the new format before deciding whether or not it’s for me?
What happens to the content I have purchased when I stop paying? Do I lose access to my purchases, or am I purchasing something which can be used offline (for example, in a downloadable format)?
OK, this question I’m sure you won’t be able to answer right now, but I’m going to throw it out there anyway: how much will it cost me? Lacking specific figures, how would you compare the cost to, say, a year’s subscription of DRAGON and DUNGEON?
What Digital Rights Management issues will I stumble across when interacting with the online content?
Will accounts be “per PC” or “per user”? For example, can I log into the system when playing a D&D game at a friend’s house?
Will you be accommodating gamers who don’t own a credit card (whether because they’re too young to have one, live in a country where such things aren’t as common, etc.)? What about gamers without internet access?
Scott: We are looking at various types of payment methods, subscription periods, and pricing options. Our overall goal is to offer a good value to consumers in terms of what they will get for the price paid. The magazines were a great value when you compare price vs content and I don’t foresee this changing as we move online. We have some experience with payment options for consumers without credit cards and we are evaluating several options. Accounts will be user based and can move with you from machine to machine.
Chris: We don’t foresee any lack of “previewability.” There will be ways to preview content and we will be testing a couple preview different options. It would be great to hear how customers would like to preview content. We have not come up with a solution for “portability” of content after your subscription has ended but we are discussing ideas with in our development team. We do not have a DRM solution yet but have a range of options available to us.
Bill: The content will be updated very frequently, but we can’t get into specifics on this yet. Expect constant small bursts of content that later get collected for ease of reference. As with the magazines, the online content represents only one part of our D&D efforts, and those without Internet access will have other options. We have a great stable of D&D staff and freelancers that we be generating the content.
It has been said, both by fans and by those in the industry (including some ex-WotC staffers) that the magazines were an invaluable marketing tool during the run-up to 3E. Given that 4E is going to come sometime, how does this affect WotC plans to successfully market the new edition - or, for that matter, any other large product launches on the horizon.
Bill: The Internet is a great delivery system for news of this kind. It’s more timely. It reaches more eyeballs than the magazines, even at the height of their readership. We believe that any messages we want to get out will not be harmed or hindered by the change in venue for the magazine content.
What will happen to the DRAGON and DUNGEON brand names? Will they be transferred directly across to the new platform in some manner, or will they become defunct?
Chris: These brand names have tremendous value and we intend to use them moving forward.
What is the likelihood of seeing new online material being compiled in hardcopy format - perhaps an annual magazine, book or compendium?
Bill: Sounds like a great idea! In fact, it’s been part of our plans all along.
Will the large quantity of regularly updated, excellent free content on the official website be affected by all this? There are, understandably, some concerns that people will now be expected to pay for something they were previously getting for free.
Bill: There will always be a free portion of our website. Some of the material that appears there now will continue as free content. But as we bring the magazine content over, content that you already pay for, expect that that content will continue to have some kind of fees associated with it.
DRAGON and DUNGEON have always been stepping stones for writers and artists breaking into the RPG industry. Will this still be the case with the online content? Will you continue to accept submissions from freelance writers?
Chris: Yes. This is exactly how I broke into the industry, and we’re always looking for new talent to complement our core team.
Is the non-renewal of Margaret Weis’ DRAGONLANCE license connected to this or is it just a coincidence?
Scott: No decisions have been made regarding the Dragonlance license, and we don’t discuss the details of ongoing negotiations.
And that’s the end of the questions! I’ve attempted to cover as many of the broad areas that people seem concerned about as possible. Thank you for your time, and your willingness to talk to the community - it’s always appreciated!
Scott: To Russ [Morrus] and the EN World community,
Thanks for the great questions and providing the forum for us to talk about our plans.
I’d like to add a short comment about our relationship with Paizo, which some have perceived as adversarial. The truth is that WotC and Paizo have enjoyed a close business partnership for five years now, and we’re jointly committed to preserving that relationship. WotC includes former Paizo employees. Paizo includes former WotC employees. We talk all the time, we socialize and play games together, and we’re all passionate about D&D. Paizo is emerging as a strong company with its own plans that happen to complement our plans very nicely. I’m excited, as they are, by the future. I’m also looking forward to the day when we can share the full scope of our plans with the rest of the D&D community.
So there ya go, Morrus. Something that could be found on ENWorld, but not here. The upcoming answers about the GSL is another example -- there will be answers about the GSL on ENWorld that won't be here.
Please don't act like WotC never posts an exclusive on your site. You and I both know that's wrong, and claiming otherwise is just making you look foolish.
It's an extremely rare exception, and yet you are acting like it's representative in general of where WOTC makes their announcements. It's not. It's a rare event usually tailored to 3rd party publishers or, like in this case, because Morrus has to practically beg an interview from folks (something anyone could try to do if they cared to).
I don't have a link, because I don't know how to find things on your site. But here's the text -- it was on your "front" page at one point.
[So there ya go, Morrus. Something that could be found on ENWorld, but not here. The upcoming answers about the GSL is another example -- there will be answers about the GSL on ENWorld that won't be here.
Please don't act like WotC never posts an exclusive on your site. You and I both know that's wrong, and claiming otherwise is just making you look foolish.
Waitaminute... That front page story was an interview granted to an ENworld member. I'm not sure how that was 'stealing' anything from Gleemax. It'd be like a PC game developer giving an interview at IGN.com or PCgamer magazine. Personally I think it's good that WoTC gives interviews to 3rd party sites like ENworld. An ENworld 'staffer' is likely to ask more honest questions, not recite talking points than you'd get out of an interview between say Mike Mearls and Scott Rouse. It's like comparing Fear the Boot to the D&D podcast. They're talking about the same thing just in different ways.
Like others have said ENworld is a different demographic. Not necessarily better or worse just different. I think it's smart for WoTC to try and ensure that their concerns are answered too and lets fact it, it makes a lot more sense for them to do so on ENworld than on Gleemax.
Last but not least by developing a close relationship with ENworld WoTC staffers can hear about other 3rd party systems, both D20 and everything else. It lets them see what they are doing right, and where they fall flat. Overall I think it strengthens the hobby as a whole, and anything that does that is good in my books.
I don't know what the current rule is over there, but there are very few to no "4e sucks!" type threads. That's not saying there are no threads with concerns about 4e, or the GSL, but the whole attitude and level of discussion doesn't give the impression that a tantrum is being thrown.
There's nothing wrong with the opinions of "anti 4e" folks, but a game designer is less likely to post on a thread, or even a board if it's filled with nothing but "4e sucks! I'm NEVER going to buy it!" There's no incentive to change anyones mind and such strongly worded threads clearly indicate there's no chance for such a thing to happen.
That really does make the difference. "No bards in 4e!!! WotC doesn't love you! They're doing a terrible job unless their job is to kill D&D!" vs. "Hey guys, would you explain the decision not to include bards in the release of 4e, and when can we expect to see the class return?"
Which one would YOU want to respond to, if you were put in the hot seat?
I agree with Zherog, the designers should post more with the community here. (A blog isn't really interacting, otherwise the designers could just tell other sites to "read about it in my blog".) There needs to be more direct discussions with the community members, but as anyone would expect, people would need to be extra polite and not come on the site to rip them apart.
Perhaps this site needs more exclusives. (Or even label some things as such.)
Having said that, they can't be limited to just this site when granting interviews. Do you think Harrison Ford is going to go to just one magazine for an interview when Indiana Jones 4 comes out? No, he's going to be all over the place speaking with lots of people. And, some of them will even use the word "exclusive!" to promote their interviews as well, even if they're the 50th interview that day.
- During DDXP, they've sent Xath and DangerGirl! to interview people there.
- The interview mentioned in the first post was the result of Morrus communication with Scott Rouse.
Which is the result of ENWorld being a private fan site unlike Gleemax, which is the official site and uses the official channel of representatives (like Mike). It's also a result of the generally higher age of ENWorld members, hence you have to people who actually know how to do stuff like that. Sometimes fan initiative can pay off - and WotC would stupid to ignore actively interested fans who send people to them.
Additionally, ENWorld is also a general RPG and d20 board (though D&D-fixated), which means that there it is less frowned upon to discuss non-WotC products from OGL publishers (like Paizo now), hence industry people keep posting there more often than here - and in some way, ENWorld is a sort of channel for WotC people to address 3rd party publishers and so on - and note the (not so) recent move of the OGL list server discussion to ENWorld. Also: They have to react to such parties posting over there on ENWorld.
And considering that some authors have a history of being non-WotC employees and 3rd party freelancers/employees, they sometimes already have a history of being at ENWorld.
These things lead to such events - and don't forget, the entire D&D homepage is "exclusive" to Gleemax. So where's the problem?
Cheers, LT.
It's an extremely rare exception, and yet you are acting like it's representative in general of where WOTC makes their announcements. It's not. It's a rare event usually tailored to 3rd party publishers or, like in this case, because Morrus has to practically beg an interview from folks (something anyone could try to do if they cared to).
Please don't put words in my mouth; I can feed myself, thank you. I never said it was the norm, or even very common. I only ever said it has happened on several occasions, and was challenged to provide one instance. So I did.
Waitaminute... That front page story was an interview granted to an ENworld member. I'm not sure how that was 'stealing' anything from Gleemax.
Well, first. I don't give a dire rat's hairy ass about Gleemax; just the forums.
Second, there were folks here asking for information. And yet, in that instance, they opted to go to another site with the answers first, rather than providing it to their own community first.
As I said in the previous post, the GSL questions are another example. They're going to give exclusive answers to EnWorld, rather than answering those questions on their site.
Again, I'm not saying it happens the majority of the time. I'm saying that it happens.
I agree with Zherog, the designers should post more with the community here. (A blog isn't really interacting, otherwise the designers could just tell other sites to "read about it in my blog".) There needs to be more direct discussions with the community members, but as anyone would expect, people would need to be extra polite and not come on the site to rip them apart.
There are some folks from WotC who are very good at interacting with the community here. I'll give two examples.
Scott Rouse is terrific. He's in the forums answering questions (as best as he can, at least, given legal considerations). But I know from personal experience that Scott goes beyond just posting. When WotC took the magazines back, I was very anxious to hear about the state of the "slush" pile from Paizo; when Wizards posted an announcement about it, Scott took the time to drop me a PM to make sure I saw it, because he knew it was something I was interested in. It probably took him less than 2 minutes, but it was something I greatly appreciated.
I recall a moment in time before the 4e announcement when Chris Perkins spent a lot of time interacting with the community in the Future Releases forum. In particular, he was very active in a "wish list" style thread, where folks were mentioning books they would love to see (ironically enough, I suppose). Chris - among other folks - was deeply involved in the thread, commenting on why something wasn't a good idea, in his opinion; tossing out ideas ("Hey, if we did X, would that interest anybody?"), and so on. It was great to see him interacting with the community like that and getting feedback (even if it all turned out to be moot because of 4e).
There's other folks who interacted well with the community here on the 3.5 side before the announcement. Logan Bonner comes to mind. It's not so much about exclusives - though I really think the forums should get more than they do now. And it's not really about an interview - obviously, they'll give interviews to other folks. My problem with the one above is that that interview (as I recall) was their first serious communication after the announcement about the mags. That's something that ought to appear on their site, in my opinion. Instead of answering questions here, though, they answered questions somewhere else, making their community feel like they were second class.
So there ya go, Morrus. Something that could be found on ENWorld, but not here. The upcoming answers about the GSL is another example -- there will be answers about the GSL on ENWorld that won't be here.
Please don't act like WotC never posts an exclusive on your site. You and I both know that's wrong, and claiming otherwise is just making you look foolish.
That's an interview. ENWorld is far from the only news related sites to have interviews. I'm not sure WotC is in the business of re-posting or linking interviews with their own members. I imagine that anything they tell you elsewhere they feel as if they have represented locally in some form to their own site visitors.
Of course, sometimes fans ferret out interesting points and highlights sometimes, which is good.
Second, there were folks here asking for information. And yet, in that instance, they opted to go to another site with the answers first, rather than providing it to their own community first.
We did provide it to our own community first, just the part of our community that spends time on ENWorld.
I'm not trying to be wise, but the people who play and talk about RPGs make up our community, where ever they may choose to lurk or post.
My problem with the one above is that that interview (as I recall) was their first serious communication after the announcement about the mags. That's something that ought to appear on their site, in my opinion. Instead of answering questions here, though, they answered questions somewhere else, making their community feel like they were second class.
At the end of the day, we can't let people on the Wizards forums feel like second class, even if it's just a perception issue, so I agree with you. We're working on a few initaitives, (namely the GRZ News page), that will help point all members of the community to all relevant bits of news, regardless what site or forum that news happens to live on.
So there ya go, Morrus. Something that could be found on ENWorld, but not here. The upcoming answers about the GSL is another example -- there will be answers about the GSL on ENWorld that won't be here.
Please don't act like WotC never posts an exclusive on your site. You and I both know that's wrong, and claiming otherwise is just making you look foolish.
No, you're right - I admit I had totally forgotten about that interview. It was quite some time ago; not exactly the norm.
The original announcemnt certainly did not originate on EN World, though, as has been claimed. It was made on Paizo's own site, as it rightly should have been.
The personal insults aren't necessary.
We did provide it to our own community first, just the part of our community that spends time on ENWorld.
I'm not trying to be wise, but the people who play and talk about RPGs make up our community, where ever they may choose to lurk or post.
Thaks, Mike; that's exactly what I was trying to say earlier. I think you phrased it more succinctly, though.
A link to an article or a preview or an interview is one click away; whether the resultant URL in your browser window says "wizards.com" or "enworld.org" or "icv2.com" while you're reading that interview really isn't something to feel personally affronted by from a fan's POV - they've still got the information.
We did provide it to our own community first, just the part of our community that spends time on ENWorld.
I'm not trying to be wise, but the people who play and talk about RPGs make up our community, where ever they may choose to lurk or post.
At the end of the day, we can't let people on the Wizards forums feel like second class, even if it's just a perception issue, so I agree with you. We're working on a few initaitives, (namely the GRZ News page), that will help point all members of the community to all relevant bits of news, regardless what site or forum that news happens to live on.
The best way to extend that viewpoint -- and to make it abundantly clear to the whole RPG culture -- is to shut down those forums that are sponsored directly by WotC and spend the community resources on the fan sites.
By sponsoring a particular set of sites, WotC is implicitly marking that set as official and approved. It is natural for a community member to expect that sponsored set to be the first place to find official comment. The cleanest way to overcome that tendancy is to remove the official sponsorship.
The best way to extend that viewpoint -- and to make it abundantly clear to the whole RPG culture -- is to shut down those forums that are sponsored directly by WotC and spend the community resources on the fan sites.
By sponsoring a particular set of sites, WotC is implicitly marking that set as official and approved. It is natural for a community member to expect that sponsored set to be the first place to find official comment. The cleanest way to overcome that tendancy is to remove the official sponsorship.
I think that's a little extreme! :D
No, you're right - I admit I had totally forgotten about that interview. It was quite some time ago; not exactly the norm.
The original announcemnt certainly did not originate on EN World, though, as has been claimed. It was made on Paizo's own site, as it rightly should have been.
I agree, and never said otherwise. Paizo (rightfully) made the announcement about the magazines.
We did provide it to our own community first, just the part of our community that spends time on ENWorld.
Sorry, but I completely disagree with your assessment. I understand what you're trying to say - we're all D&D players and so therefore we're all the target market - but that doesn't mean ENWorld is the place where WotC should be providing their first statements about something.
A link to an article or a preview or an interview is one click away; whether the resultant URL in your browser window says "wizards.com" or "enworld.org" or "icv2.com" while you're reading that interview really isn't something to feel personally affronted by from a fan's POV - they've still got the information.
While I agree in principle, it's not that cut and dry - at least for me. Aside from not liking ENWorld (sorry, personal preference thing, and I don't even know if I can articulate why), my employer blocks it (and also icv2.com). So for me, something posted on those sites may as well not exist.
Yes, the universe does in fact revolve around me. Why do you ask? ;)
edit: Just to clarify -- while I don't like ENWorld, that alone wouldn't keep me from following a link to read something "important" over there. I don't think that was clear...
While I agree in principle, it's not that cut and dry - at least for me. Aside from not liking ENWorld (sorry, personal preference thing, and I don't even know if I can articulate why), my employer blocks it (and also icv2.com). So for me, something posted on those sites may as well not exist.
Well, the sites that your employer chooses to block is hardly a basis for WotC to form its marketing strategies! What happens if/when your employer decides to block wizards.com, too?
I think that's a little extreme! :D
Well, maybe a bit. But Morrus, do you believe Enworld has a community? I certainly do. Do I believe forums.gleemax.com offers a different community for D&D? I do. The common memes, the allowable topics, the inside jokes, and the regular posters are different. Even those members who post on both sites act differently.
The best way WotC can express that all the individual sites represent the whole community for D&D is to not offer one particular site with a higher level of official sanction.
The original announcemnt certainly did not originate on EN World, though, as has been claimed. It was made on Paizo's own site, as it rightly should have been.
that was my quesiton bring that up,cuz i didn't know where it had ben posted frist,since you know i use WotC to get news about the systems i'm interested in,so i don't have to go surfing around unless its absloutly nesseceray,
Well, the sites that your employer chooses to block is hardly a basis for WotC to form its marketing strategies! What happens if/when your employer decides to block wizards.com, too?
Perhaps you missed the part where I declared the universe revolves around me? :D
Well, the sites that your employer chooses to block is hardly a basis for WotC to form its marketing strategies! What happens if/when your employer decides to block wizards.com, too?
"Work?"
And anyone who expect their own corporate website to be their sole source of marketing is on a straight path to bankruptcy.
Marketing. Meaning: getting the word out.
If you're here, you already know about it. Otherwise you wouldn't be here.
The world is out. People everywhere know 4th edition is coming. Now they should be focusing on getting the information out. The proper place for that is their own website. Why should anyone even buy a product from WotC regarding D&D if they show no support for anything they make?
The website is treated as second best, the past editions are discarded like a used tissue, players likewise are disposable.
I think Scott Rouse put it best in one post regarding the GSL. Thye spent X dollars on it, so the only thng they care about is the money.
So before saying that more marketing is needed, ask yourself what is the difference between marketing (geting the word out that 4th edition exists), and supporting your own product lines (using your direct wensite/community to get information out about 4th edition).
Yes I am here because I know 4th edition exists, and Gleemax was made to look like the best thing since sliced bread for geting information about all things games: "The Home for Gamers on the Internet!!!".
So I have been lied to about the purpose of Gleemax, or is WotC riddled with the same problems other major corporations have, where the left hand doesn't know what the right is done and running around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off, because they won't slow down, and get organized?
Web team: We must put this article up about the GSL on April X, 2008
~after reading the article~
Designers: The GSL is ready?
Brand Manager: They already posted the GSL? Is my copy lost in the inter office mail?
Legal (Linae Foster?): Are we finished with the GSL and I missed a meeting on it?
Nobody knows what is going on because they are so rushed to do things everything turns up half-arsed.
Where are people expected to find out the truths about all the confusion? Surely you would not think WotC's own website to have this information?
Well it isn't. you have to mull over countless other websites, unless you get lucky enough some other poster ran across the informaiton and poasted a link to it on the forums here.
There is a big flaw in that.
We're just finishing up an update to the Gamer Radio Zer0 page ( www.wizards.com/grz ) that will have a news section so I can put daily updates on informaiton. This would allow me to link to interesting articles in the press, features posted on our website, blog posts made by designers, and replies and other information posted by WotC staff on other sites like EnWorld. I'm hoping it will allow folks to more easily find the news they are looking for, regardless of whether it's on our site or on an outside community site.
Yeah, everything should work smoothly and seemlessly and we're moving towards that goal. But we have a team of site managers and site developers who work on this stuff full time, so it's not something the CM team manages directly.
I think I am always way over my head. =) But what fun would it be if there wasn't too many things to do? Seriously though, you raise a good point, and that's one of the main reason I want to get the GRZ News page up and running. So even if the news is in a variety of areas, they is one place where they can find links to most or all of it.
Now that was a truely usefull post form a WotC staffer, that I think was a first (appearance) for the WotC website, so maybe we can call it a WotC exclusive!
I think had more effort being put by the web team to get and gather those other links here at WotC for people this whole mess could have be prevented. Even if all this information does come from somewhere else, having it gathered in one central location here at WotC (one easy to find, because I don't do web videos so didn't know your page existed) would be very helpful to all interested parties.
As for the second paragraph of that I have quoted from you, do you think it possible as your duty to relay feedback, you could tell the web team, that when making article with a "Discuss this article"" link, that it link to the correct sub-forum? At least define which one it belongs in, because it seems a few times coming from one of those links, the users of the forums feel that the topipc belongs in another place. HAve someone even make a dedicated thread for each article and jsut link directly to the thread so that people KNOW where the discussion for an article is, and they can then choose to make spin-off threads based on small details about an overall article if they chose by putting them in the proper forum.
This may help CM will less need for moving threads, as they would be less chance of the initial discussion for an article to be in the wrong place. The less work you (CM) have to do with forum cleanup, the more time you have making those consolidated link lists, and other thiings.
Well thanks for explaining some of that in part, so now people will be able to understand a bit more about what is going on, and how this whole information explosion is being handled.
Now I just hope people can find that post of yours and what it explains in this mess of forums here at WotC and it doesn't jsut get lost and eaten by the ravages of time and archiving scripts.
The world is out. People everywhere know 4th edition is coming. Now they should be focusing on getting the information out. The proper place for that is their own website. Why should anyone even buy a product from WotC regarding D&D if they show no support for anything they make?
Giving an interview to a news source OTHER than your own website is the same as "showing no support for anything they make"? When you put things in hyperbolic terms like this, you're asking to not be taken seriously.
The website is treated as second best, the past editions are discarded like a used tissue, players likewise are disposable.
Again with the hyperbole. It's like you want to make this forum a hostile environment for serious discussion. The tone of this place is in your hands, too. You can make it a hostile, angry, petulant environment. But if you do so, don't be surprised when your favorite game designers look elsewhere to discuss stuff.
I think Scott Rouse put it best in one post regarding the GSL. Thye spent X dollars on it, so the only thng they care about is the money.
... yeah, that's how you make Scott want to hang out with you. Put him at ease.
Seriously, enough with the righteous indignation. You can't get support for a product that doesn't exist. When 4e is out, then you can get it, just like all the other people on all the other forums on the internet -- and then you can worry about support. For now, such thoughts are premature at best.
Cheers, -- N
That is also how Scott makes the consumers feel when they see something written on some other area of the internet with the atittude/tone in which it was said.
When a large number of people start asking civily about information about something, and get no response they begin to feel like they are purposefully being ignored. This can lead to bad feelings and a sense of anger at being ignored, which changes their tone. Then when met with an answer finally filled with more attitude directed back at them, because someone wouldn't answer calmly the first few times asked, that is when the hostility starts from BOTH sides.
I don't think the post I mention from Scott was very civil, as it was showing a lack of respect for gamer, and made in a condescending manner. The focus point was not that it was wanted to support a better version of the game as has been said all along with regards to 4th edition over 3rd edition, but about the amount of money spent on 4th edition and the resulting GSL was the reason stressed for it.
We all know companies want to make money, but when you act like that is your only focus in making something when talking to the people who are your potential customers you sound like a sideshow barker just trying to part the peasant from a few of their coins. You could care less about them so long as they can line your pockets a little bit more.
I began hearing about the money driving reasons for 4th edition and did not want to listen to them. Now some of the things I have seen are directing me to think that it is true, and moreso than just needing to stay in business. Maybe these people have no PR training, but they are coming off very poorly with some of the public in regards to how a lot of this stuff is handled. Maybe some of that money devoted to MySpace-WotC (Gleemax) could have been used to prepare these people for dealing with the public in a better manner.
Be it video or text, there are some things you can't just take back what you said.
"Don't bite the hand that feeds you."
Seriously, we're very lucky to have the D&D team staffed with people like Scott who are soo into what they do that they love talking about it. Scott tries extremely hard to explain things to the community so they can understand the reasoning behind the decisions we make. I apologize if that sometimes can be perceived as being unrespectful to gamers, I can guarentee that's not his intent.
Scott's just one of those crazy guys who would be posting actively in the RPG community even if he didn't work in the industry. I feel fortunate to work for a game company that focuses on hiring people like that. =)
I don't have a link, because I don't know how to find things on your site. But here's the text -- it was on your "front" page at one point.
There are some folks from WotC who are very good at interacting with the community here. I'll give two examples.
Scott Rouse is terrific. He's in the forums answering questions (as best as he can, at least, given legal considerations). But I know from personal experience that Scott goes beyond just posting. When WotC took the magazines back, I was very anxious to hear about the state of the "slush" pile from Paizo; when Wizards posted an announcement about it, Scott took the time to drop me a PM to make sure I saw it, because he knew it was something I was interested in. It probably took him less than 2 minutes, but it was something I greatly appreciated.
Thank You :D
Nifft
That is also how Scott makes the consumers feel when they see something written on some other area of the internet with the atittude/tone in which it was said.
When a large number of people start asking civily about information about something, and get no response they begin to feel like they are purposefully being ignored. This can lead to bad feelings and a sense of anger at being ignored, which changes their tone. Then when met with an answer finally filled with more attitude directed back at them, because someone wouldn't answer calmly the first few times asked, that is when the hostility starts from BOTH sides.
I don't think the post I mention from Scott was very civil, as it was showing a lack of respect for gamer, and made in a condescending manner. The focus point was not that it was wanted to support a better version of the game as has been said all along with regards to 4th edition over 3rd edition, but about the amount of money spent on 4th edition and the resulting GSL was the reason stressed for it.
We all know companies want to make money, but when you act like that is your only focus in making something when talking to the people who are your potential customers you sound like a sideshow barker just trying to part the peasant from a few of their coins. You could care less about them so long as they can line your pockets a little bit more.
I began hearing about the money driving reasons for 4th edition and did not want to listen to them. Now some of the things I have seen are directing me to think that it is true, and moreso than just needing to stay in business. Maybe these people have no PR training, but they are coming off very poorly with some of the public in regards to how a lot of this stuff is handled. Maybe some of that money devoted to MySpace-WotC (Gleemax) could have been used to prepare these people for dealing with the public in a better manner.
Be it video or text, there are some things you can't just take back what you said.
"Don't bite the hand that feeds you."
If you see something that bothers you feel free to PM me and tell me so. I usually respond in a day or so.
If you want to have a longer conversation I will give you my email.
Or if you want to have a personal conversation I'll send you my phone number or you can tell me in person at the next Con we're at together.
Many times, I'd start to wonder if EN World was a mirror site of these boards because I see many of the same threads with the same titles posted by the same people over there as well as over here.
I notice a lot of people cross post on multiple boards. Not always, but many times I notice it is on a hot topic where the OP wants to rile up as many people as possible.
I don't know what the current rule is over there, but there are very few to no "4e sucks!" type threads. That's not saying there are no threads with concerns about 4e, or the GSL, but the whole attitude and level of discussion doesn't give the impression that a tantrum is being thrown
There's nothing wrong with the opinions of "anti 4e" folks, but a game designer is less likely to post on a thread, or even a board if it's filled with nothing but "4e sucks! I'm NEVER going to buy it!" There's no incentive to change anyones mind and such strongly worded threads clearly indicate there's no chance for such a thing to happen.
That really does make the difference. "No bards in 4e!!! WotC doesn't love you! They're doing a terrible job unless their job is to kill D&D!" vs. "Hey guys, would you explain the decision not to include bards in the release of 4e, and when can we expect to see the class return?"
Which one would YOU want to respond to, if you were put in the hot seat?
Personally speaking I don't mind when someone disagrees with my position. I can handle the "anti" crowd but there is certainly a line, that when crossed, I begin to have a problem with. Personal attacks are a good example of a line crossing situation. Early on in my time on the boards I tried to set a guideline that I would not be a doormat. I am human and just like most people I don't like to feel like my neck is being stepped on.
I agree with Zherog, the designers should post more with the community here. (A blog isn't really interacting, otherwise the designers could just tell other sites to "read about it in my blog".) There needs to be more direct discussions with the community members, but as anyone would expect, people would need to be extra polite and not come on the site to rip them apart.
Perhaps this site needs more exclusives. (Or even label some things as such.)
I agree but we do need to define "this site". Is it the boards, posts from staff, or features on the DnD home page? I would say the boards could use more staff participation but that the exclusives on the DnD page are the equivalent of drinking from a fire hose.
Having said that, they can't be limited to just this site when granting interviews. Do you think Harrison Ford is going to go to just one magazine for an interview when Indiana Jones 4 comes out? No, he's going to be all over the place speaking with lots of people. And, some of them will even use the word "exclusive!" to promote their interviews as well, even if they're the 50th interview that day.
True dat.
I don't think the post I mention from Scott was very civil, as it was showing a lack of respect for gamer, and made in a condescending manner. The focus point was not that it was wanted to support a better version of the game as has been said all along with regards to 4th edition over 3rd edition, but about the amount of money spent on 4th edition and the resulting GSL was the reason stressed for it.
Your point would be muuuch better, if you give more context, like a link. Here.
Furthermore:
- Scott was talking in the OGL-L forum (which originated from Ryan Dancey's listserver) and wasn't addressing fans/gamers per se, but gave a rationale for people who care about the GSL and OGL... like 3rd party publishers. Industry people.
- The money is a reason. You talk like there's something wrong with it. WotC is a business. And while businesses are sometimes also passion-driven, they always have to include the fiscal side - that's pragmatism and essential for survival (in fact, ignoring it would mean no game at all, hence no gamers who can be respected...)
- I can see nothing disrespectful about that - Scott was helpful during the entire thread when he checked it. In fact, being upfront with that reality IS respectful. Lying and playing nice would show a lack of respect.
- And as you see, Scott has checked back HERE as well - he hasn't posted on ENWorld for quite a time. So he certainly devotes at least equal time to both boards - and don't forget that he posts during his free time as well. It's not only marketing, it's also his personal interest and can hence choose where to post - unless you want him to be a pure business man only looking for a good image - wait, would that be disrespectful?
Cheers, LT.
EN World is a news outlet. It started as one, and despite forays into publishing, it remains a news outlet first and foremost. When WotC gives an interview to a news outlet, they don't have to repeat it on their own website.
What they *can* do is provide a link to the interview on their front page, thus consolidating the information, even if it is not on their own website.
And apart from interviews (which are most of the time requested by the news outlet, and not by the interviewed party), I don't recall a single instance where a WotC representative started a thread on EN World or anywhere else with a scoop or anything. Any information and clarification they have given there (and by "they" I mean "Scott, mostly") is in response to questions asked. Compare that to the Gleemax presence, where you have several WotC designers and representatives answering questions.
If you see something that bothers you feel free to PM me and tell me so. I usually respond in a day or so.
If you want to have a longer conversation I will give you my email.
Or if you want to have a personal conversation I'll send you my phone number or you can tell me in person at the next Con we're at together.
Im just saying that how it came out was probably not the best way in answer to the GSL about the money spent sounding like the major reason you wanted people to switch to 4th edition in the enworld thread.
All things revolving around it, as you yourself stated, sems to have happened so fast You didn't even have a copy in your "hot little hands".
June isn't that far away, but there seems to be too much planned at once for 4th edition, and someone needs to have a fresh and clean mind to respond to people. Whoever came up with the scheduling (HASBRO/WotC) is to blame, for thinking it would go off smoothly. I am sure that was not a singular person, but a group that was in a rush even when they made the decision.
Take a step back before answer forum quesitons, as you addressed these, and you will be able to have a clear head, and things may not come out wrong on both ends. That is the jist of my previous post. You post was an example, but not the only one involved in this mess regarding the GSL.
Your point would be muuuch better, if you give more context, like a link. Here.
I don't have my GPS set to find my way around enworld. That is why I joined the WotC forums/Gleemax thing so I could hopefully find all up to date information in an easy to search and read place. Thanks for providing the link to it to put it into context.