Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 waaagh-da-orks Mar 29, 2009 8:55:39	Old-time Dark Sun reader, seldom played or DMed it, thinking about starting up a short adventure series, pre-Decade of Heroes. I was wondering, though, specifically about wizardly magic. Casting even the lowliest cantrip can turn into death-by-mob, and it doesn't seem to me like the benefits outway the risks. Magic isn't that much more powerful than psionics, is it? Why would someone learn this forbidden technique when roughly the same effects (save or die, direct damage, mind control, summoning) are available for training at the local psicadamy? Hope someone can help me with this! Help me put the fear of magic into my players...
#2 col08 Mar 29, 2009 17:26:20	I agree and that has always been something that confused me in the DS setting. For that reason I always use the Psionic and Magic are different variant. 'Dispel Psionics' will only dispel psionic affects and 'Dispel Magic' will only dispel magic affects. Suddenly your level 1 defiler/preserver casting Sleep is much more powerful as his spell can only be dispelled by another magic user. Now maybe their power, even at low levels, is worth the cost of casting.
#3 eldritch_lord Mar 29, 2009 19:07:32	Magic isn't that much more powerful than psionics, is it? Why would someone learn this forbidden technique when roughly the same effects (save or die, direct damage, mind control, summoning) are available for training at the local psicadamy? The reason magic was so feared was for two reasons. First off, defilers caused Athas to be the dried up wasteland it is now; it used to be a natural paradise (sort of) until lots of wizards defiled the place to hell and back. That means that the average person thinks of all wizards as extremely evil and extremely powerful, even if they aren't; if everyone thinks you could kill them with a flick of the finger, that gives you a lot of clout. Secondly, just as Col08 said, Psionics is Different used to be the default. If you were a wizard, the best psion in the world probably couldn't negate your spells, detect your magic, defend against your fireballs, etc. Granted, you had the same vulnerabilities in reverse, but since most if not all creatures had innate psionic abilities, an Athasian arcanist had the best of both worlds.
#4 Tectuktitlay Mar 29, 2009 20:03:08	Until 3.5, Wizards DID have a LOT of things they could do that Psions could not. Mostly, the mass-area-of-effect and world-altering stuff. Psions didn't get enormous AoE effects. They couldn't cast something like Wish. They didn't have nigh-unstoppable Power Word: Kill type effects, per se. They didn't have a lot of buffs that could be placed on others, mostly just on themselves. Thus, there was considerably more difference between a Wizard and a Psion/Psionicist pre-3.5. 3.5? Well, they decided (incredibly foolishly, IMHO) to make Psions into "Wizards with spell points". They pretty lazily copied a huge percentage of effects, gave Psions even MORE ability to control how powerful/which damage types they could use each turn, and maintained the super-versatility of "spell points". They kept some of the uber top end effects to Wizards. But, for the most part? They just copied, copied, copied. Finally, yes, the posters above me are quite right. "Psionics are different" used to be the default. Thus, a Wizard could cast anything, even a mind-affecting spell like Charm or Hold (something psionic-types hurl around all the time), and the normally psionic-prepared, but not magic-prepared opponent would get trashed quite thoroughly.
#5 waaagh-da-orks Mar 30, 2009 3:16:45	Great replies everyone, thanks. I will definitely use 'psionics are different' in my campaign; might even go as far as to allow magic to dispel/detect psionics, but not the other way around. (Dispel magic would get rid of Inertial Armor, Dispel Psionics wouldn't dispel a Wall of Fire.)
#6 Sysane Mar 30, 2009 9:20:56	To lend cadence to your treatment of the transparency Waaagh. I've seen an interesting house that while psionics can't effect magic, magic can effect psionics (i.e dispel). The creator of the rule had an issue that it made no sense for Rajaat to create an power source that only *equaled* psionics. I tend to agree. It may cause balance issues, but if a DM played up the social paranoia surrounding arcane magic and truly made PCs fear casting spells in public it could balance out.
#7 phoenix_m Mar 30, 2009 10:02:17	Even if ruled that the standard Dispel Magic doesn't remove psionic effects, magic is flexible. A creative wizard could research specific anti-psionic spells or develop a feat (Meta or other) that simulates the same thing (if it's all about balance that is).
#8 waaagh-da-orks Mar 30, 2009 10:03:41	I've seen an interesting house that while psionics can't effect magic, magic can effect psionics (i.e dispel). The creator of the rule had an issue that it made no sense for Rajaat to create an power source that only *equaled* psionics. I tend to agree. It may cause balance issues, but if a DM played up the social paranoia surrounding arcane magic and truly made PCs fear casting spells in public it could balance out. There's the heart of the matter. I want to showcase magic as fundamentally better than psionics; my idea is that psionics and magic shouldn't be balanced in my Dark Sun, because then there's a definite advantage in studying magic that offsets the social stigma. Hm, it would be nice to find the source of this house rule, maybe the author has other nice ideas.
#9 Sysane Mar 30, 2009 10:37:16	I think that this is the thread the house rule came about in: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=633460
#10 laughinggranny Mar 30, 2009 11:24:30	One other thought. a difference between AD&D and 3.x. Defiling was easy, and powerful. Under old rules if you remember Defiling had the same xp chart as a rogue... wich was 40% less xp then a Preserver, or a Psion.
#11 brun01 Mar 30, 2009 13:46:33	A defiler could effectively cast his spells with +3 CL and +2 DC while at the same time giving all his opponents –1 penalty to all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for 1 round (even more using Raze feats). Or you could shift you defiling radius and make your opponent look like the defiler, using the aforementioned mob attack him.
#12 cnahumck Mar 30, 2009 14:20:08	A defiler could effectively cast his spells with +3 CL and +2 DC while at the same time giving all his opponents –1 penalty to all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for 1 round (even more using Raze feats). Or you could shift you defiling radius and make your opponent look like the defiler, using the aforementioned mob attack him. This last one is definitely the way to go. Combine with Leech levels, and you can also damage those you cast upon. Combine with Dragon Magic, and you are very very nasty. In fact, getting Dragon Magic is the whole reason to be a defiler.
#13 Zardnaar Mar 30, 2009 23:17:22	Mechanically on DS Psionics is better using rules done by Athas.org. Theres no reason (mechanically) to play a wizard. Psions are more of a varient Sorcerer than a Wizard IMHO due to lack of powers/spells known. Anyway Psions basically get at least 3 metamagic feats for free (silent spell, still spell, eschew materials) and they also get the Archmage PrC ability mastery of elements for free. Also if you use the psionics is different rule they also ignore the magic/spell resistence of any monster with it. In return Wizards get to ignore the PR of monsters- all 12 of them The only advantages wizards really have are. 1. More variety in spells due to spellbook. 2. High level spell effects are often better than high level psionic effects. Alot of the nutty broken stuff is available to both however. 3.5 is essentially unplayable at high/epic levels anyway without a few houserules. 3. More options in splat books. More spells and prestige classes are designed for arcnae casters than psions.