4e dark sun versu 2e canon - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

4e dark sun versu 2e canon

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Dungeoneering
Nov 04, 2010 14:00:41 I am about to begin DMing a Dark Sun campaign for a new group. Really excited about it. I've read through the DSCG and its inspired a ton of adventure ideas. I did not play back in the 2e days, so I've never played, let alone DMed, Dark Sun. Most of my players are in the same boat.

Except for one.

One of the guys has been playing since 2e at least and he LOOOOOVES Dark Sun. He's also DMed extensively. This is great, except that his knowledge of the Dark Sun canon is far more extensive than mine is ever likely to be. He has read through some of the DSCG as well, but I think its hard for him to separate what 4e DS is versus what 2e DS is.

Now I to be clear, I am definitely running 4e Dark Sun. I like that the DSCG is vague on the history of Athas and doesn't define, for instance, exactly what happened to Kalak or what happened to the gods. I'm the kind of DM that loves to create, and I don't want to be slavishly beholden to whether or not there was a blue age, or who killed who in Chap 7 of the Prism Pentad (which I haven't read). I think I really need freedom to fill in some of the backstory myself.

At the same time I do want the world we're playing in to be Dark Sun. I don't want to change so many things that it becomes unrecognizable or jarring for him. But maybe that's unavoidable.

I'm just curious about whether others have wrestled with this issue. How do you stay true to the campaign world but still make it your own? How far do you take canon? When do you ditch it? What kind of expectation should I give this player about what will be the same and what will be changed? What can I do to make sure he's not jarred by changes or unduly disappointed?
#2
Ozmodious
Nov 04, 2010 14:42:11 I played 2ed Dark Sun and loved it as well as the 4th ed, even with the changes made. I gathered up all of my old Dark Sun stuff and use the information from the books in my games except information concerning events that took place after Kalaks death. To me this is a reboot and I dont want to fall into the megaplot that my players ( many of which played with me then too) will know what is going on.
I use Dune Trader, Slave Tribes, Veiled Alliance and will be getting city-state of Tyr soon. These books make for great reference. Wanderers journal in the box set is great reference as well.
Some advice about the old mega plot... dont follow it... I think it lost alot of coolness when the SK's were all around and feared. One city-state without a SK is enough and having only one player knowing the old stuff will not hamper your game any.
For me it is rough sometimes cause few of my players will talk about the old stuff so I mix it up a bit and change it to keep them suprised as well as the people new to Dark Sun. Cannon for the old stuff is null and void after the death of King Kalak in the new stuff and high praise to them for that.
#3
apitch85
Nov 04, 2010 14:56:25
I don't want to be slavishly beholden to whether or not there was a blue age, or who killed who in Chap 7 of the Prism Pentad (which I haven't read).

Then don't be. It's that simple.

I /am/ a cannon, Nazi, but that would never prevent me from playing in a DS campaign where it isn't enforced or evident. Sometimes people just need to learn to play the game. If this guy's biggest concern is that your DS campaign takes place in a world where Kalak is still running around being a dick, I'm pretty envious of this guy's life.
#4
fromost_the_grimm_02
Nov 04, 2010 15:31:21
How do you stay true to the campaign world but still make it your own? How far do you take canon? When do you ditch it? What kind of expectation should I give this player about what will be the same and what will be changed? What can I do to make sure he's not jarred by changes or unduly disappointed?

Immersion.

Sure, he may have played a different version of the game before. But in many ways, that's the nature of D&D ... in one campaign, the red dragons are all evil shapeshifters, but in another world, they're just big dumb scary monsters. Encountering them in the first sense doesn't necessarily influence how you see them the second time around.

Just make your version of the world now rich and immersive, and irrespective of another player's previous knowledge, they'll become become enveloped more in current events, trends and storylines, and less in previous iterations. It's kinda cool that you have such a player in a way, especially if they play a character with a fair amount of knowledge in-game. They know what's going on, they've heard lots of rumours. Some of those rumours may be based in truth, others not so much ... but it's kinda cool to have both a player and a character who understands the world in a bit of depth, and so who can explain things both to other players, and to other characters in-game.

And it's even cooler when the things they take for granted turn out to be different than expected. Sure, they'll probably question this -- hopefully more in character -- but again, make your storylines immersive, and they'll happily drown in them, and care less about 'how it used to be'.
#5
khorne37
Nov 04, 2010 16:37:49 I have to agree. I played DS back in second and loved the setting and also loved the fluff. I am taking the 2e modules that follow Prism Pentad for a bit and making them into 4th ed. But as far as the adventures go they never say what happened to Kalak only that he was pursued into his pyramid. as far as the rest of the setting goes I have some powerful NPC's that will utilize or be the hooks for other adventures that fall outside of the realm of the module set. I also don't think I want the dragon to be dead I mean besides SK's I need persistent enemies come epic tier.
#6
naxel
Nov 04, 2010 16:55:42 I don't like what the Prism Pentad really did to the setting, but there are many great little setting-specific hooks absent from 4e from 2e that I feel don't ruin it. I much prefer the broader and vaguer history of Athas in 4e, with Rajaat just being some genocidal defiler than wangsty ancient halfling-thing.

For example, I've turned lifeshaping into a halfling-only primal power paragon path, the Cerulean Lens is a magic orb that deals thunder and lightning damage on a critical and that a sorcerer can use as an implement (storm magic), a mage who powers themselves from the Black is an epic destiny for those with the shadow power source, and the Pristine Tower and sun magic were built and used by tentacled Old Ones (who in my setting are what the Dragon is imprisoning; they also taught their most devoted cultists magic and psionics, i.e. the sorcerer-kings).

Of course, most of those things aren't statted out yet because I don't know which PCs of mine might utilize them, but they're just little continuity nods to anyone who might realize such
#7
kilocharlie7
Nov 11, 2010 18:20:53 I'd simply recommend you talk with the player mentioned and let him know how much you'd like him to play in your campaign, but you'll be running YOUR Dark Sun campaign world. Which may not be the same Dark Sun he's used to and that he'll have to accept that his knowledge of Dark Sun is no longer exactly cannon. Let him know that you appreciate that he has a lot of experience with the campaign world, but you won't tolerate arguments about the game wold. If he feels that he can lay back and have fun not sweating the details then it could be a lot of fun, but if he can't maybe it would be best if he didn't play.

Most experienced players and DM's I know can usually make playstyle adjustments after such a discussion and end up having a lot of fun. The few I've met that can't (I was in this crowd when I was a teenager, but have moved into the former category over the years) really end up causing problems with the game and it ends up being a disaster.
#8
Kye_Tyrad
Nov 12, 2010 9:08:18 Your player may actually help out the new comers adjust to the Dark Sun world a lot faster and through him it could help bring background knowledge to the game. He would be able to bring along the stereotypes of the world....elves are generally not to be trusted, bards are good at more than just music...defiling magic is frowned upon by the public as is magic in general. He would be able to help the other players understand that bribery can help move things along!

Obviously he could go overboard with his prior knowledge, but watch for it and make sure you and him discuss those concerns.
#9
Alphastream
Nov 12, 2010 12:23:40 The two posts above have a nice angle to them of compromise. I would state the compromise clearly.

For example, you might say "Hey, I love that you are going to be in the campaign. Your knowledge can really help make the setting more vivid for the players. You know things like how thri-kreen can go crazy if they taste elven flesh. That's fun. At the same time, I don't know all of these things and I don't want my campaign to hinge on them. I need to be able to run the campaign effectively and not be beholden to all of the canon. If a thri-kreen tastes elven flesh, I don't want to have to suddenly change things when you mention that if I didn't already know it. How about this: if in any gaming session I do something that goes against canon, make a note of it. At the end of the session, let me know what it was and then I will consider it and think about how I could integrate it. For example, in the next gaming session I might let the players know that they noticed that the kreen didn't seem to react to elven flesh, though many kreen do. And I might then use that in the plot. This way, we don't disrupt the session but we can add in the canon when it is useful."

Also, keep in mind that the DSCG resets things to about the first book of the Prism Pentad. By doing that, you don't need to do anything with a lot of canon, since it doesn't exist (and may not ever exist). There are no sun wizards, no cerulean storm, etc. That should be clear to the player so they can keep their brains on the right level. While the blue age exists, no one has any idea of the Prism Pentad angles and they will likely never come up.
#10
awaken_D_M_golem
Nov 12, 2010 14:17:38 ALL fluff from previous editions, can be brought whole cloth, into your home game.

Any and ALL differences between 4e Dark Sun and anything else, can easily be "blamed" on The Spellplague.

The Spellplague is ALL-ways the answer as to "why" something isn't the same, 4e to previous.

It's the Spellplague's "fault".

The Spellplague ... (evil grin) ... unless of course, you want to blame Pun-pun.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Dungeoneering Nov 04, 2010 14:00:41	I am about to begin DMing a Dark Sun campaign for a new group. Really excited about it. I've read through the DSCG and its inspired a ton of adventure ideas. I did not play back in the 2e days, so I've never played, let alone DMed, Dark Sun. Most of my players are in the same boat. Except for one. One of the guys has been playing since 2e at least and he LOOOOOVES Dark Sun. He's also DMed extensively. This is great, except that his knowledge of the Dark Sun canon is far more extensive than mine is ever likely to be. He has read through some of the DSCG as well, but I think its hard for him to separate what 4e DS is versus what 2e DS is. Now I to be clear, I am definitely running 4e Dark Sun. I like that the DSCG is vague on the history of Athas and doesn't define, for instance, exactly what happened to Kalak or what happened to the gods. I'm the kind of DM that loves to create, and I don't want to be slavishly beholden to whether or not there was a blue age, or who killed who in Chap 7 of the Prism Pentad (which I haven't read). I think I really need freedom to fill in some of the backstory myself. At the same time I do want the world we're playing in to be Dark Sun. I don't want to change so many things that it becomes unrecognizable or jarring for him. But maybe that's unavoidable. I'm just curious about whether others have wrestled with this issue. How do you stay true to the campaign world but still make it your own? How far do you take canon? When do you ditch it? What kind of expectation should I give this player about what will be the same and what will be changed? What can I do to make sure he's not jarred by changes or unduly disappointed?
#2 Ozmodious Nov 04, 2010 14:42:11	I played 2ed Dark Sun and loved it as well as the 4th ed, even with the changes made. I gathered up all of my old Dark Sun stuff and use the information from the books in my games except information concerning events that took place after Kalaks death. To me this is a reboot and I dont want to fall into the megaplot that my players ( many of which played with me then too) will know what is going on. I use Dune Trader, Slave Tribes, Veiled Alliance and will be getting city-state of Tyr soon. These books make for great reference. Wanderers journal in the box set is great reference as well. Some advice about the old mega plot... dont follow it... I think it lost alot of coolness when the SK's were all around and feared. One city-state without a SK is enough and having only one player knowing the old stuff will not hamper your game any. For me it is rough sometimes cause few of my players will talk about the old stuff so I mix it up a bit and change it to keep them suprised as well as the people new to Dark Sun. Cannon for the old stuff is null and void after the death of King Kalak in the new stuff and high praise to them for that.
#3 apitch85 Nov 04, 2010 14:56:25	I don't want to be slavishly beholden to whether or not there was a blue age, or who killed who in Chap 7 of the Prism Pentad (which I haven't read). Then don't be. It's that simple. I /am/ a cannon, Nazi, but that would never prevent me from playing in a DS campaign where it isn't enforced or evident. Sometimes people just need to learn to play the game. If this guy's biggest concern is that your DS campaign takes place in a world where Kalak is still running around being a dick, I'm pretty envious of this guy's life.
#4 fromost_the_grimm_02 Nov 04, 2010 15:31:21	How do you stay true to the campaign world but still make it your own? How far do you take canon? When do you ditch it? What kind of expectation should I give this player about what will be the same and what will be changed? What can I do to make sure he's not jarred by changes or unduly disappointed? Immersion. Sure, he may have played a different version of the game before. But in many ways, that's the nature of D&D ... in one campaign, the red dragons are all evil shapeshifters, but in another world, they're just big dumb scary monsters. Encountering them in the first sense doesn't necessarily influence how you see them the second time around. Just make your version of the world now rich and immersive, and irrespective of another player's previous knowledge, they'll become become enveloped more in current events, trends and storylines, and less in previous iterations. It's kinda cool that you have such a player in a way, especially if they play a character with a fair amount of knowledge in-game. They know what's going on, they've heard lots of rumours. Some of those rumours may be based in truth, others not so much ... but it's kinda cool to have both a player and a character who understands the world in a bit of depth, and so who can explain things both to other players, and to other characters in-game. And it's even cooler when the things they take for granted turn out to be different than expected. Sure, they'll probably question this -- hopefully more in character -- but again, make your storylines immersive, and they'll happily drown in them, and care less about 'how it used to be'.
#5 khorne37 Nov 04, 2010 16:37:49	I have to agree. I played DS back in second and loved the setting and also loved the fluff. I am taking the 2e modules that follow Prism Pentad for a bit and making them into 4th ed. But as far as the adventures go they never say what happened to Kalak only that he was pursued into his pyramid. as far as the rest of the setting goes I have some powerful NPC's that will utilize or be the hooks for other adventures that fall outside of the realm of the module set. I also don't think I want the dragon to be dead I mean besides SK's I need persistent enemies come epic tier.
#6 naxel Nov 04, 2010 16:55:42	I don't like what the Prism Pentad really did to the setting, but there are many great little setting-specific hooks absent from 4e from 2e that I feel don't ruin it. I much prefer the broader and vaguer history of Athas in 4e, with Rajaat just being some genocidal defiler than wangsty ancient halfling-thing. For example, I've turned lifeshaping into a halfling-only primal power paragon path, the Cerulean Lens is a magic orb that deals thunder and lightning damage on a critical and that a sorcerer can use as an implement (storm magic), a mage who powers themselves from the Black is an epic destiny for those with the shadow power source, and the Pristine Tower and sun magic were built and used by tentacled Old Ones (who in my setting are what the Dragon is imprisoning; they also taught their most devoted cultists magic and psionics, i.e. the sorcerer-kings). Of course, most of those things aren't statted out yet because I don't know which PCs of mine might utilize them, but they're just little continuity nods to anyone who might realize such
#7 kilocharlie7 Nov 11, 2010 18:20:53	I'd simply recommend you talk with the player mentioned and let him know how much you'd like him to play in your campaign, but you'll be running YOUR Dark Sun campaign world. Which may not be the same Dark Sun he's used to and that he'll have to accept that his knowledge of Dark Sun is no longer exactly cannon. Let him know that you appreciate that he has a lot of experience with the campaign world, but you won't tolerate arguments about the game wold. If he feels that he can lay back and have fun not sweating the details then it could be a lot of fun, but if he can't maybe it would be best if he didn't play. Most experienced players and DM's I know can usually make playstyle adjustments after such a discussion and end up having a lot of fun. The few I've met that can't (I was in this crowd when I was a teenager, but have moved into the former category over the years) really end up causing problems with the game and it ends up being a disaster.
#8 Kye_Tyrad Nov 12, 2010 9:08:18	Your player may actually help out the new comers adjust to the Dark Sun world a lot faster and through him it could help bring background knowledge to the game. He would be able to bring along the stereotypes of the world....elves are generally not to be trusted, bards are good at more than just music...defiling magic is frowned upon by the public as is magic in general. He would be able to help the other players understand that bribery can help move things along! Obviously he could go overboard with his prior knowledge, but watch for it and make sure you and him discuss those concerns.
#9 Alphastream Nov 12, 2010 12:23:40	The two posts above have a nice angle to them of compromise. I would state the compromise clearly. For example, you might say "Hey, I love that you are going to be in the campaign. Your knowledge can really help make the setting more vivid for the players. You know things like how thri-kreen can go crazy if they taste elven flesh. That's fun. At the same time, I don't know all of these things and I don't want my campaign to hinge on them. I need to be able to run the campaign effectively and not be beholden to all of the canon. If a thri-kreen tastes elven flesh, I don't want to have to suddenly change things when you mention that if I didn't already know it. How about this: if in any gaming session I do something that goes against canon, make a note of it. At the end of the session, let me know what it was and then I will consider it and think about how I could integrate it. For example, in the next gaming session I might let the players know that they noticed that the kreen didn't seem to react to elven flesh, though many kreen do. And I might then use that in the plot. This way, we don't disrupt the session but we can add in the canon when it is useful." Also, keep in mind that the DSCG resets things to about the first book of the Prism Pentad. By doing that, you don't need to do anything with a lot of canon, since it doesn't exist (and may not ever exist). There are no sun wizards, no cerulean storm, etc. That should be clear to the player so they can keep their brains on the right level. While the blue age exists, no one has any idea of the Prism Pentad angles and they will likely never come up.
#10 awaken_D_M_golem Nov 12, 2010 14:17:38	ALL fluff from previous editions, can be brought whole cloth, into your home game. Any and ALL differences between 4e Dark Sun and anything else, can easily be "blamed" on The Spellplague. The Spellplague is ALL-ways the answer as to "why" something isn't the same, 4e to previous. It's the Spellplague's "fault". The Spellplague ... (evil grin) ... unless of course, you want to blame Pun-pun.