Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 JohnLynch Jan 10, 2010 23:47:01	One thing I like about "Dark Sun" is that it takes traditional traits of races, and puts a new twist on them. Hobbits had voracious appetites, this was transformed into cannibalistic halflings. Dwarves are extremely stubborn, this was transformed into focuses. So I was thinking about how you could transform the Primal Classes to make them feel more Athasian. This is what I came up with: Primal Power Source Primal worship is considered an evil and corruptive force that threatens to harm civilised people. How this mindset came about is unknown, although various theories abound. Many believe that it was the sorcerer-kings themselves who first spread fear and distrust concerning the Primal classes because they feared that spirit-worshipping could displace them as the heads of their own state-religions and encourage rebellion. Other simply point at the horrific things people do with their primal abilities and say the fear is justified. Petty thieves and dodgy merchants are separated from the hardcore thieves of the underworld. In the shadows of the city-states lurk dens of corruption that could overcome society, if not for the templars of the sorcerer-kings acting as a barrier. With the primal classes outlawed in most city-states, those who follow this path to power often lead a life of crime. Their abilities can and do set them apart, making them leaders of small gangs of other primal classed criminals or even simple Rogues, Fighters and Warlords. While they're feared by people who mostly follow the law, this can transform into respect by those who live outside the law. Below are details on each primal class in more depth. Barbarians Barbarians can be found in all quarters of the world, both in civilization as well as the deserts. They harness anger and rage, allowing them to pummel their victims mercilessly until they die a horrible and bloody death. Barbarians have a reputation of going insane and killing their loved ones and anyone nearby. These tales may be exaggerated, but if so only by a little bit. Stories abound of barbarians who eat the heart or body of people they kill. This is unfair for most barbarians as typically only halflings trying to get back in touch with their tribal roots commit such atrocities. Although the customs and habits barbarians do follow can be disgusting enough. It is quite common for barbarians to take trophies from their kills ranging from minor jewelry to a finger, teeth or even hair. Wealthy barbarians will adorn their homes with skulls of people they've killed while others buy items made from the people they kill. These range from clothing made completely from the skin of their victims to hairbrushes made from human hair. The skilled people who make these items for barbarians keep their identities secret from all but their customers. Druids Folklore tells of evil people called druids who transform into beasts whenever there is a full moon. These beasts then terrorise the desert and cities alleyways, killing and eating anyone they can find. Those who manage to survive an attack don't get away completely free. On the next full moon they find themselves wracked in pain as they transform into a vile creature of the desert who then joins the others in looking for people to prey upon. Such tales are responsible for ensuring that druids aren't allowed to live openly in civilization. In reality most druids use their powers to facilitate much more mundane and ordinary crimes. Almost all druids create a special garden for themselves hidden either in a remote desert oasis or somewhere underground. Regardless of their location, these druid gardens are used to cultivate a variety of plants. Almost all druids cultivate the common poisons and foods, although there are those who specialise in exotic poisons. Merchants who are willing to deal with druids can obtain exotic herbs and poisons at good prices. But creating these gardens are only one aspect of druids. All druids possess the ability to transform into animals, which is the inspiration of the horror stories they're featured in. Unlike in the stories, druids cannot pass on their abilities simply by biting someone. They also rarely use their ability to transform into animals in order to hunt down and eat intelligent creatures. Instead the druidic ability to shapechange into animals is used to facilitate ordinary crimes. Some druids will transform into a swarm of ants or spiders so they can more easily break into houses by slipping underneath a door's crack. After having broken into a home most druids will simply loot the place for small goods they can fit in a backpack and then leave the same way they entered. Although there are some who will use their diminutive size to hide and spy on other people. Finally there are those druids who can summon creatures to fight for them. This can be a defensive measure, summoning a beast to keep someone busy as the druid flees. Or it can be an offensive measure, using the summoned creature to help commit a crime such as a mugging. Shaman Shaman are believed to be responsible for creating legions of undead. Stories often depict them leading zombies and ghouls down city streets or invading small towns. Often the heroes of such tales, are the Templarate who manage to wipe out the undead in a sweep of bright light. The reality is only somewhat different. Shaman have control of something called a spirit companion. Most often the Shaman gains one by kidnapping a person and dumping the victim along with themselves in the desert or deep underground. Together they must now journey back to civilization, avoiding the myriad dangers that lurk between them and safety. This is part of a ritual and by the end of it typically the victim is dead, and if the Shaman somehow survived they performed the final part of the ritual which trapped the victim's soul. Once this is done the Shaman forces the spirit to serve the Shaman for the rest of the Shaman's life. Shaman are not limited to a single spirit companion. In truth they can undergo the above ritual as often as they wish. Each time this ritual takes place, the Shaman becomes quite weak and so must set aside time to allow their body to recover. Shamans sometimes believe the more spirit companions they have, the most powerful they can become, although the veracity of this belief is unknown. Spirit companions created in the above manner continue to have their personality and memories, but they lose their ability to act freely. They are slaves to the whims of the Shaman who has captured their spirit. The appearance of the captured spirit is often a ghostly image of what the person looked like in life (or just after they died). However some Shaman take delight in twisting the appearance of their spirit companions into other-worldly entities. Some Spirit companions look mostly human normal except for a few changes, such as wings protruding from their back. Others take on bestial forms, a strange adhoc mixture of human and beast. The above manner of gaining companion spirits is only the most common way, it isn't the sole method. Some Shaman who fear that they'll be overpowered by anyone they take into the desert instead depart with an animal to perform the ritual with. These Shaman are typically cowards and so the animal they take is usually domesticated. Finally there is a third manner in which to gain a companion spirit, although this is the rarest way. Sometimes an animal spirit will spontaneously choose to obey an ordinary person and teach them the ways of the Shaman. This method of gaining a spirit companion is often the tales of legend among criminals. It is believed anyone who is chosen to be a Shaman will grow to become a powerful crimelord. Wardens In stories Wardens are people who have become possessed by the spirit of a dead person. In these tales the personality of the Warden disappears as the spirit takes complete control of the body. The stories aren't too far from the truth. Few people try to become Wardens as the path is fraught with danger, although the rewards can be great. Someone becomes a warden by meditating and trying to open their mind to the spirits of the deceased. If successful, spirits will begin to possess him. Most of these spirits are simply those of dead animals, which makes this a perilous time for the Warden. If too many spirits possess the Warden before he can handle them, at best he'll die while at worst he'll become a mindless animal as each of the spirits fight for control. The only way for a Warden to survive and avoid this fate is to be possessed by the spirit of a deceased person. This spirit can keep the animal spirits away and only allow them to possess the Warden at a safe rate. They can also be a valuable source of information for the Warden. By meditating in an effort to commune with the spirit, the spirit can communicate with the Warden. At first the communication is sporadic and cryptic, although it becomes easier the more you try. However there is no such a thing as a free lunch. The spirit that possesses a Warden almost always has wants and desires of its own. To begin with the spirit will make requests of the Warden. Perhaps eating certain foods the spirit once enjoyed, or heading to an arena game to have some bets. However the more information the spirit gives the Warden the more it wants in return. The Warden may be asked to kill complete strangers in revenge for the spirit its possessed by. Doing random acts for the spirit is the smallest of costs it will demand. Eventually the spirit will attempt to gain control over the Warden's body. It is not unheard of for a Warden to go to sleep in his bed, only to wake up the next morning in someone else's bed with no memory of how it happened. These are the warning signs that the spirit is gaining more and more control over the Warden. If the Warden doesn't fight the spirit and somehow get the spirit under control, it may never wake up and remain a prisoner as the Warden's old body. Seekers A twisted parody of a hunter, Seekers use the spirits of the recently deceased to fuel their powers to fight and kill. In order to become a seeker, someone must search for a powerful spirit who the Seeker will make a bargain with. In return for swearing fealty to this powerful spirit, the person will undergo an initiation rite. This method of primal power isn't taken up by those who are strong-willed and refuse to bend knee to someone else because of the oath the great spirits demand they first give. Instead it is most commonly sought out by either the desperate or the ambitious. Seekers can grow to become quite powerful, allowing for only a handful to operate within a city at any given time. After having undergone the initiation ritual, the Seeker can now perform a ritual that will capture the spirits of the recently departed. This must be done within an hour of the person's death. Most Seekers use bows and will capture spirits of the deceased and store them within arrows. Then when the Seeker wishes to perform an attack, she simply draws out the arrow and unlocks its powers before shooting it at her foe. However not everyone can afford bows or arrows and so they must instead store the spirit within their own body. They then imbue the spirit within a weapon (usually a dagger) just before they throw it at their quarry. Much like the Warden, this is fraught with danger as the spirits will fight within the Seeker's body. Unlike Shamans or Wardens who use the same spirit time and again to empower their attacks, Seekers can only use a spirit for a single use. As such, Seekers are always looking for fresh corpses in an effort to steal that body's spirit. The ritual to capture spirits in arrows takes a whole five minutes and can be quite ornate and difficult to cast. However Seekers are strange in that although they must dance around a bit or thump the corpses body quite strongly (each Seeker's ritual differs depending on who taught them the ritual), after the ceremony is over the Seeker feel completely rested as if they'd been lazing about for the past 5 minutes. --------- Those are my takes on making primal classes feel more Athasian. The part I really like about them is most of the fluff is from PHB2 or Primal Power. Barbarians and their trophies are taken straight from page 6 of PP. Druidic Gardens are taken from page 42 of PP. Sure in other setting the druidic gardens probably aren't filled with poisons, but you could make a respectable trade from exotic poisons. Also with the new Swarm build you can break into people's homes easily by transforming into insects and crawling beneath a crack in the door. Thanks to the fact items meld into your body when you transform (mostly to make sure you keep your weapon enchantments and bonuses) you can load up your backpack with stolen goods and escape the same way. Shaman are likewise from PP, with the above ritual described in PP on page 76 in the sidebar "Shaman Pairs." Shaman's can have multiple companion spirits with different personalities according to page 62 as well. Wardens were really difficult to reflavour while staying somewhat true to the core fluff. Fortunately the "Guardian Might" sidebar on page 91 from PP describes Guardian Might as spirits toughening your skin gave me the idea of spirits possessing you. The Seeker fluff is almost completely the same, except for the inclusion of a "master spirit" who gives you the forbidden knowledge on how to become a Seeker. And instead of harnessing spirits in a peaceful manner, you capture the spirits of people you kill. But you only keep them captured for a brief time until you use the power again at which point they disappear to wherever spirits go in the afterlife. Clearly this goes against established canon. Druids are meant to be about being one with nature and protecting the world from the evil defilers and sorcerer-kings as they try to free the slaves so democracy can rule supreme. But I thought a more sinister and self-serving approach might be more appropriate if you want campaigns that don't have heroes. What do others think?
#2 Pennarin Jan 11, 2010 11:10:14	I'm in agreement with your analysis, just not what you came up with. Good effort, though. A full moon? Don't you mean full moons? or refer to little Ral passing in front of Guthay?
#3 turlough Jan 11, 2010 14:05:47	I'm in agreement with your idea as long as these are the exceptions to Primal power in Athas, not the norm.  Maybe these can happen just often enough that people are wary of those who work with the primal power?  But I think Primal Power can work in Athas almost as written, without needing to change much.  Druids in Dark Sun already have Spirits of the Land, so it's not much of a stretch to think other groups (classes) might interact with those spirits differently.  That's just me, though.  Thanks! turlough
#4 big_goon Jan 11, 2010 14:20:47	Thanks JohnLynch, I was thinking about writing one of these for the Primal Powers, but since WotC will probably overrule everything when their release comes out in August, I thought I would wait. Plus, I have no idea what WotC will do with Templar... I think this is really good, but doesn't really take things far enough. Making the Primal Powers seem more primitive or anarchical to the general public, even if this is not exactly true, is awesome. You added a sense that the Primal Powers are just mis-understood, but this could be emphasized for all the classes. Examples would be nice, but I understand that this can be difficult without 4e DS.
#5 JohnLynch Jan 11, 2010 23:16:51	Thanks for the posts guys. Its interesting to see what other people think. I'm happy to see other people are looking for a darker and perhaps less heroic Dark Sun then the original boxed set and later books seems to aim for. A full moon? Don't you mean full moons? or refer to little Ral passing in front of Guthay? Aha! I was looking for the name of the moons. Which moon is white and which one is red? I personally think having it be a full red moon is more thematic (red, being the colour of blood which can have negative connotations). I'm assuming they're a red and white moon. since WotC will probably overrule everything when their release comes out in August, I thought I would wait. Plus, I have no idea what WotC will do with Templar... Having read a bit more about Dark Sun (only to find its not what I expected) I've ceased worrying about what Wizards of the Coast is going to do with the campaign. I expect them to make the setting extremely friendly for heroic campaigns with players encouraged to overthrow the sorcerer-kings rather than serve them. While that's fine, I'm already a player of 4 different heroic campaigns. In Dark Sun, I want somthing different, so I've warned my players when I get finished with Dark Sun in August, it may have very little similarities with the 4th ed Dark Sun books. doesn't really take things far enough. Making the Primal Powers seem more primitive or anarchical to the general public, even if this is not exactly true, is awesome. You added a sense that the Primal Powers are just mis-understood, but this could be emphasized for all the classes. I may have erred more on the side of making them relatable then intended. I'm trying to avoid making the primal classes evil for the sake of being evil. These aren't moustache-twirling villains who rip out the hearts of slaves simply because they can. They're people who as a rule don't want anarchy or the destruction of society. The intelligent ones realise without society they wouldn't be able to extort, steal and murder for profit because no-one would have anything worth stealing and people wouldn't be able to afford their prices. Instead they quite happily pay the militia to look the other way and hope to one day be part of a gang powerful enough that the templarate will be hesitant to take them out. It might be an idea to remove the "these people turn to crime because they have no other choice" and replace it with "these people turn to dealing with primal spirits because they don't have the stomach or means to learn the dreaded art of defiling. They are ambitious, ruthless and greedy, although that could describe almost any Athasian. The thing that separates them from those who mostly follow the law is the courage to take great risks for great rewards." A Shaman should feel different, more ambitious and daring then your average Rogue. Examples would be nice, but I understand that this can be difficult without 4e DS. The only thing I'm waiting for with Dark Sun are racial mechanics, defiling mechanics and survival in the wilds mechanics. If not for those I feel fairly confident that I could run a Dark Sun campaign next month. So I'd be happy to write up some examples, what do you mean though? Examples of character backgrounds?
#6 qorvus Jan 12, 2010 15:24:57	Interesting ideas. DS 4.0 doesn't seem to be making radical changes from DS 3.0 however and I can't see that changing much with druids (though as for the other primal classes I can't say.)  In as much as there were 'good' guys in DS, Druids were in the camp, violently opposed to defilers and working with such types as preservers, pyreens and villichi. How the spirits will factor in will be an interesting thing to see, but they worked to preserve and reclaim teh barren lands and I can't see that changing in 4.0
#7 Pennarin Jan 12, 2010 22:33:58	The wild woman applied herself with dedication that surprised him greatly, and to his bound self she seemed aglow with an over-abundance of inner strength that seemed to light up her face in the cool darkness of the grove. With each scream she managed to draw out of him, screams inevitably turning to silent, exhausted rictuses of pain, it seemed to him her eyes showed what he had rarely seen before anywhere else but in a mirror - a sense of purpose. These were his last thoughts as she seized his head between her hands and the life ran out of him.                                                                                                                      * * * As she came out of the dying grove, rubbing her bloody hands in coarse sand and drying leaves, Anoch stopped briefly to nod at the mound of dirt under which she had buried the druid that used to tender the grove. Now this place was in danger of being overtaken by the ravening sun and sand she could already see encroaching upon it.  "This grove does not need to echo your death, land-brother", Anoch said to the mound while casting her hand down and letting the golden rivulet of life energy she had just stolen shower down to the grove's parched ground. "Only a few more of these dogs' wretched lives, their substance freed and returned to whence they took so much from, and I will see your grove returned to its former glory. This I promise." Anoch turned her gaze back in a direction over her shoulder, back towards the grove's deepest part―where even defilers are powerless―to a bound lifeless man laying on the ground, his body crumpled unto himself like a gutted aprig. "This one finally told me where I can find others of his kind, and it will take only a few more. Yes, a few more."
#8 big_goon Jan 13, 2010 11:10:27	Wow Pennarin. Bravo. You wrote that yourself? That's an excellent interpretation of a primal vs arcane battle. It doesn't really matter which class, but it shows how Dark Sun treats the forces of life as a commodity being exchanged between the power sources like a game of ping pong. While metal, water and food and other physical resources are rare, it's really life force that is the most precious and sought after resource.
#9 Pennarin Jan 13, 2010 11:22:15	It's not elegant, but understand this is only my fourth mini story (I never wrote anything else in my life), and I was battling sleep at the time. I can see it's got flaws but can't quite fix them without making more! Rev could help ;)
#10 big_goon Jan 13, 2010 12:00:41	I'm no expert either. Maybe the quote is just out of context, but I was a bit confused between the reference to "him" in the first paragraph and the reference to the druid/corpse in the 2nd and 3rd, since the "him" eventually becomes a corpse. Rereading it, I understand the battle between Anoch and the defiler. She arrives too late to save the druid (separate from him in the 1st paragraph), but does manage to save the grove from a slow death. Cute.
#11 Pennarin Jan 13, 2010 13:28:01	Anoch gets to this other druid's grove (or it might be her own, taken care of by more than one druid) and find him dead and the place dying from defiling, and finds the defiler still there. He's in the inner grove where defiling doesn't work (or she tricks him into stepping there), and she beats the crap out of him and binds him.  Later she burries the druid in his grove. When the defiler wakes up, she tortures him for information, and when he relinquishes it she uses her druid powers (or perhaps the grove's?) to snuff him out, giving the energy back to the dying grove. Only a few such transfers of energy will be needed to rejuvenate the partially defiled grove.
#12 DoctorBadWolf Feb 05, 2010 4:55:08	That's pretty damn cool, man. I think, in a world like Athas, if I were to have a group that comes closest to truly being good guys, I would make it the Primal classes, personally. Going the other way, however, the thoughts in this thread are fantastic. You people are making me really anxious to run or play in a dark sun campaign.
#13 xlorep_darkhelm Feb 05, 2010 13:37:53	I don't know. I'd say that the Primal power source is messed up, to be sure. But I'd not necessarily make them evil, or criminals in the sense you are conveying them. I see them as largely very angry (in my 3.5 campaigns, I gave Druids the Rage ability). The Spirits are upset, and their followers also are upset. Barbarians: Athasian Barbarians, in my opinion, would make barbarians from other worlds seem calm, passive, and quite friendly in comparison. They are very quick to anger and rage, and tend to be a force of destruction that makes them a just a bit too dangerous for most "civilized" areas. Mostly rejected and forced out of city-states, some of the Barbarians, however, have twisted into actually working for the sorcerer-kings, in a strange and confusing alliance making them extremely fearless warriors (the Oba tends to have them). Druids: Bitter and angry, the druids shun society, and seek to destroy those they hold responsible for the state the world is in -- those who use Arcane power. Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and all other Arcane classes should be wary of the blindly-aggressive Druids that seek to punish those that dare to defile their world. Druids care not if an Arcane user is a preserver or defiler... those insignificant details are of no concern to them, as they struggle to (in their opinion) fight for what little life is left in the world. Shamans: Much like their Druid brethren, the Shamans are bitter and resentful toward the Arcane, drawing upon their spirit allies to pinpoint and track down Arcane users they can pick off, one by one. Wardens: Not quite as aggressive as the others, the Wardens defend the land with everything they have at their disposal. They have no love for the Arcane, especially the Sorcerer-Kings, to include any that follow the foul beings that have laid claim to the little civilization left in the world.
#14 DoctorBadWolf Feb 06, 2010 3:12:24	I don't know. I'd say that the Primal power source is messed up, to be sure. But I'd not necessarily make them evil, or criminals in the sense you are conveying them. I see them as largely very angry (in my 3.5 campaigns, I gave Druids the Rage ability). The Spirits are upset, and their followers also are upset. Barbarians: Athasian Barbarians, in my opinion, would make barbarians from other worlds seem calm, passive, and quite friendly in comparison. They are very quick to anger and rage, and tend to be a force of destruction that makes them a just a bit too dangerous for most "civilized" areas. Mostly rejected and forced out of city-states, some of the Barbarians, however, have twisted into actually working for the sorcerer-kings, in a strange and confusing alliance making them extremely fearless warriors (the Oba tends to have them). Druids: Bitter and angry, the druids shun society, and seek to destroy those they hold responsible for the state the world is in -- those who use Arcane power. Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and all other Arcane classes should be wary of the blindly-aggressive Druids that seek to punish those that dare to defile their world. Druids care not if an Arcane user is a preserver or defiler... those insignificant details are of no concern to them, as they struggle to (in their opinion) fight for what little life is left in the world. Shamans: Much like their Druid brethren, the Shamans are bitter and resentful toward the Arcane, drawing upon their spirit allies to pinpoint and track down Arcane users they can pick off, one by one. Wardens: Not quite as aggressive as the others, the Wardens defend the land with everything they have at their disposal. They have no love for the Arcane, especially the Sorcerer-Kings, to include any that follow the foul beings that have laid claim to the little civilization left in the world.  this seems far more appropriate. although I'd say that shamans might work just as well as...well, shamans. By which I mean, spiritual leaders/witch doctors, etc. Druids, to me, should be willing to work with preservers, but have very little patience for anyone who isn't actively fighting the defilers.