After paizo advanced the timeline 300 years a few years ago, alot of people here didn't seem to like the changes. As long as the reboot has been well done I'm not to concerned about how it contradicts second ed material. From what I expect of Dark Sun I would like.
1. Post apocalyptic desert world.
2. Defilers
3. Sorcerer Kings and city states.
4. The Dragon
It wouldn't really bother me that much if they ditched the entire Prism Pentad story arc, Rajaat, paraelemental clerics, avangions, Kurn, Saragar, Pyreen, Ur Draxa, The Dark Lens etc etc. The Darksun I feel in love with was the original boxed set, and I never really liked alot of the changes and sourcebooks they done. Some were stupid overpowered crap (Dragon Kings), or were tied to the Prism Pentad. I liked things like Dune Traders or Slave Tribes sourcebook.
What do you expect form 4th ed DS, and what do you regard as sacred cows for Dark Sun?
1) The seven or ten cities (Tyr, Uric, Raam, Nibinay, Glug, Draj, Balic, plus the additions of Eldaarich, Kurn and Saragar as that one far off legendary land of plenty) and their cultural personalities.
2) The Sorcerer Monarchs, let's face it a total reboot like they did with FR would just kill the feel of Dark Sun - the Monarchs are the IMORTAL glue that holds the world in place. remove them and the game changes.
3) Slavery and the Gladiator Games, again with the harshness and cheapness of life - removing them would also kill the feel of Dark Sun.
4) The unusual player races – Half Giants, Kreen, and Muls OH MY!
Under the category of cows:
1) Just about everything that came out (novel wise) after the Amber Enchantress.
2) Never was a big fan of the Space Halflings.
It wouldn't really bother me that much if they ditched the entire Prism Pentad story arc, Rajaat, paraelemental clerics, avangions, Kurn, Saragar, Pyreen, Ur Draxa, The Dark Lens etc etc.
Not only would I not be bothered by such a turn, I pray for it (well, paraelemental clerics are kind of cool). The original boxed set presented so much mystery and creativity then ruined it all by pretty much destroying everything that was cool.
There's just one dragon! He's dead, and there are more.
Evil, immortal sorcerer-kings rule the wastelands! Oh, we killed half of them.
History is lost and forgotten! Wait, nope, here's what happened.
Now there's an uber-bad guy more bad and powerful than all the other bad guys! Aaaand now we've entered trope-ville...
Oy.
So, yeah, I'd want a complete reboot back to the apocalyptic sort-of "Lost World" setting with truly immortal, dangerous centers of power, and humanity desperately attempting to survive amid the ruin and rubble, hiding away from the monsters, as the de facto slaves of powers truly beyond them who are also the only things capable of protecting them from the monsters and dangers of the world. Evils like life-stealing magic (which should be made more morally questionable for preservers), mutant beasts, armies of ghosts and "demons", and vicious sand storms, killer heat, and lack of water.
Seriously, the sorcerer-kings pretend at being gods, but we don't really ever see them getting down and being godly for their adoring throngs: throwing back sandstorms, making dry fields bloom, staving off hordes of locusts, banishing armies, slaying terrible mutant beasts, or making the sun flash and shake in the sky. You know, doing things that make their people both love and fear them and honestly pray to them or see them as at the very least a very necessary evil.
Not only would I not be bothered by such a turn, I pray for it (well, paraelemental clerics are kind of cool). The original boxed set presented so much mystery and creativity then ruined it all by pretty much destroying everything that was cool.
There's just one dragon! He's dead, and there are more.
Evil, immortal sorcerer-kings rule the wastelands! Oh, we killed half of them.
History is lost and forgotten! Wait, nope, here's what happened.
Now there's an uber-bad guy more bad and powerful than all the other bad guys! Aaaand now we've entered trope-ville...
Oy.
So, yeah, I'd want a complete reboot back to the apocalyptic sort-of "Lost World" setting with truly immortal, dangerous centers of power, and humanity desperately attempting to survive amid the ruin and rubble, hiding away from the monsters, as the de facto slaves of powers truly beyond them who are also the only things capable of protecting them from the monsters and dangers of the world. Evils like life-stealing magic (which should be made more morally questionable for preservers), mutant beasts, armies of ghosts and "demons", and vicious sand storms, killer heat, and lack of water.
Seriously, the sorcerer-kings pretend at being gods, but we don't really ever see them getting down and being godly for their adoring throngs: throwing back sandstorms, making dry fields bloom, staving off hordes of locusts, banishing armies, slaying terrible mutant beasts, or making the sun flash and shake in the sky. You know, doing things that make their people both love and fear them and honestly pray to them or see them as at the very least a very necessary evil.
We should get on fine then:D
What do you expect form 4th ed DS, and what do you regard as sacred cows for Dark Sun?
Gladiators. Psionics being common. Metal being rare. A harsh struggle for survival. Seas of sand. Everything, everywhere, being bleak.
Everything beyond that, I don't care. Although I kind of like half-giants, thri-kreen and mul.
making Tyr a bloody Democracy, a DEMORACY?! killing half the Sorceror Kings and hallfings in UFOs...oh to hell with all that!! :D
So, get right back to 1st boxed set, with other bits of goodness, like Dune Trader etc.
What do we want? SURVIVAL!
What do we want SORCEROR KINGS! (who melt smart alex PC's brains out at 5 miles just for thinking uppity!)
What do we want? TYRANNY!
What do we want? PCs with life expectancies of petroleum-soaked gnats in Hell, if they are stupid! ;)
What do we want? PSIONICS! *heads explode like in "Scanners" *
What do we want? TEMPLARS! evil scumbags on patrol
hehe!
PCs with life expectancies of petroleum-soaked gnats in Hell
Oh, I have got to use that line!
*bows!* ;)
well, it is rather apt for Dark Sun! hehe
What do you expect form 4th ed DS, and what do you regard as sacred cows for Dark Sun?
Sacred:
1) The Cleansing Wars. Defiling and Preserving. Immortal sorcerer-kings and The (1) Dragon. All these are closely related and you cant have Sorcerer Kings without them. Making defiling an NPC-only thing is fine, but dont pretend there wasnt a mass genocide leading to how the world is today.
2) No true gods, no Astral access. Clerics are either templars of the SorcKings or worship elemental powers. Primal sources work well in the setting too.
3) Slavery, gladiators and the overall cheapness of life. Fundamental to the setting.
4) High difficulty. 4E is highly survivable in the standard design. On Athas, dehydration is as likely to kill you as a monster or death in the arena. Consider bringing back character trees.
5) Wacky monsters. This isnt a land of horses and donkeys, red dragons or orcs. Here you saddle up a kank or an erdlu and fight a tembo or braxat.
6) Awesome art. Throw a ton of money at Brom. Seriously the initial design for Dark Sun was basically Brom drew something, then they figured out how to add it to the game; it was that good. Just dont hire whoevers been doing the recent 4e art.
7) No metal. Dont do it. If you dont want to penalize bone or obsidian thats fine, just dont have commonplace metal swords or gold coins. Ceramic pieces are coming back in style.
Things to ditch:
1) Lifeshaping halflings. Cannibal halflings are awesome and must stay though
2) World-altering story arcs. Dont do this in the next line of Dark Sun novels. You can write novels in the setting, just dont use those novels to fundamentally alter the setting.
- I'm fine with just going with the original seven as there is more than enough to work with there.
- I liked the city-states in the Paizo article because they were all different in interesting ways.
- Tyr is a free city that is trying to find its way in a land where sorcerer-kings rule. A lot of potential there for political thrillers or infighting.
- Urik was a military city constantly looking to add to its resources. It is a very tightly run city which can make it fun to run adventures there as you try to avoid the templars and such.
- Raam is now being run by an undead sorcerer-king, one of the most powerful sorcerer-kings. Also, he can be used for introducing the dragonborn (dray) to the world of Athas.
- Draj, a city which lost its sorcerer-king. Instead of ruling themselves they have created a new sorcerer-king. Being so new he is one of the weakest, but there is potential there. Templars now have access to powers again.
- Nibenay and Gulg. They war over one of the last forests, but their cities are different. Nibenay hides away in his city collecting power, increasing his ability as a sorcerer-king (which makes him the most powerful living sorcerer-king). Lalali-Puy lives in a forest city and preserves it as much as possible for her own self-interest.
- Balic. A city which lost its sorcerer-king only to have him return. He is re-establishing his control so there may be some troubles while this is going on. This is also a possible way of introducing the tieflings. Much like Paizo did with the maeneds, the tieflings could be used as race brought back by Androponis.
2. I would like to see defiling, but with a serious downside beyond role-playing aspects. I would like to see it as something that any arcane class can do, if they so choose. Maybe something like they spend a healing surge to gain different bonuses. These bonuses could be somewhat analogous to the enhancements shown in the new psion class. That being said, if the defiler was to be a build of the wizard class, they could do something somewhat like the psion class.
3. I'm not so tied to the original races that I think that they must all be there or that new ones can not be introduced. I would like to see the mul and thri-kreen, definitely. Goliths would work just fine for half-giants. Aarakocra and Pterrans never did much for me and saw little use. I can see the dragonborn and tieflings there. If there is going to be some adjustments to the races, that could work too. They could drop the fey origin from the eladrin and use them as city-born elves of a haughty nature. Elves could remain as they are and be desert-dwelling creatures. Lots of potential here.
4. Classes. Templars are an occupation and can really be of any class. The article on gladiators was quite good and shows that there can be many paths to being a gladiator. This could certainly work for the templar. The new bard can be quite wicked, especially when combined with the various assassin multi-class feats (and the fact that they can take multiple ones). If elemental remains a viable source it would be nice to see an example of a class (elemental cleric) introduced in the Player's Guide.
Just some thoughts.
We don't need the Cleansing Wars, and you sure do not need them for the Dragon or the SKs
in fact, we don't need ANY of the "Official history"...that's what made a damn mess of the setting in the first place so let's ditch it and let DMs do with Dark Sun what the please for history ;)
The SKs and Dragon just are. That's enough to know, leave the mystery!
agree with rest though
one thing to desperately avoid is to NOT make metal weapons" superior", inferior weapons must have penalties, or you screw up the game balance terribly if you make normal wepaons superior and inferior ones as good a snormal...that's barmy!
ie, some folk have said they want metal wepaons to have a +1 hit bonus, but that's silly as it adds more rules, more complicaiton and over powers metal weapons that starts an "arms race".
One reason Dark Sun is hard is because getting decent quality weapons is difficult, and that's a good thing.
a wooden club works perfectly well, no penalty!
a wooden longsword though, you wouldn't get the normal +2 attack bonus they give in 4th ed as it's inferior, that is a simple, logical rule.
Obsidian spear works perfectly as good as a metal one, it does break more often though, if you want ot add a rule for such items a roll of "1" = breakage?
The new city-states would still be ruled by sorcerer-kings (though I would change the name, maybe god-kings), but there would be no back story for them. Were they other champions of Rajaat? Powerful beings from another plane? The books never say. Only that they are extermely powerful and have templars.(Or no templars if the class does not work in 4e).
Allowing the DMs to maintain the mystery of the past and deciding their own answers.
With the pristine tower, rajaat's prison, and rhul-thaun halflings on the other side of the world, there is no reason to focus on them. Also the heros of Tyr are not around to help the PCs or steal their thunder.
Now this is not the answer I most want to see. (I would rather an update set in FY 15 or so. And leave the parts of 4E that do not fit out.) But this is a way I could see them going.
- I know that there's a lot of Prism Pentad hate out there, but I happen to have liked the series and I don't want to see it ignored. On the other hand, the second boxed set did go overboard with cramming Athasian history down our throats. There's got to be a happy medium in-between.
- Likewise, there's got to be a happy medium between 4e and established Dark Sun lore. For example, I don't want to see a portion of the player's guide detailing Athasian gnomes when they've been established as extinct. On the other hand, I don't want to see the player's guide specifically forbid gnomes on Athas. Just don't mention gnomes period.
- I'd like to see 4e Dark Sun set shortly after the events of Dregoth Ascending.
- An Elemental Leader class to represent Dark Sun clerics. Let the Divine classes represent templars.
- Kreen and muls are going to be a must, assuming neither one is included in PH3. As for half-giants... I'd like to see them show up, but only if they can somehow be made large. If they can't, I'd rather see them left out than see something akin to the 3.5 XPH half-giants.
- Maybe show some more of the world. Emphasis on maybe. I wouldn't really mind an official Athasian world map, so long as most of it was unlabelled. (Secrets of the Dead Lands was supposed to establish the known portion of Athas was in the southern hemisphere, yes?)
What I'd like to see from 4e Dark Sun...
- Likewise, there's got to be a happy medium between 4e and established Dark Sun lore. For example, I don't want to see a portion of the player's guide detailing Athasian gnomes when they've been established as extinct. On the other hand, I don't want to see the player's guide specifically forbid gnomes on Athas. Just don't mention gnomes period.
*snip*
This point is surprisingly easy to address, but goes somewhat against your first point: Give a separate section of the book for each Age, and both campaign and character suggestions for each.
The Blue Age would be the most alien of all, a water-world campaign with bio-tech of sorts. Halflings and Kreen are the two PC races likely to be found here. Moreover, these two races are the only two likely to be found in ANY age. Halflings, mechanically, already exist quite well for DS, and Kreen would be absolutely perfect as one of the premiere races to introduce in this book, along with Mul, and perhaps Half-Giant (if they wish it to be different from Goliaths).
The Green Age would be modified classic high fantasy, with psionics replacing magic, and some slightly Eberron-esque qualities (as is evidenced by the psionic technologies that Saragar showed to us, from mind storage and computer-like devices, to light sources, to elevators and subways, etc). This is a perfect fit for the most common time period for Warforged, for example, being psionic constructs from this bygone age.
The Cleansing Wars would be a segue from Green to Brown, and would detail all the races that are annihilated, who survives, the Champions, et al. This is the setting of an apocalyptic world war that engulfs the entire planet, and sets off the destruction of the world's ecosystems in addition to the fall of just about every empire/republic/monarchy/etc in the world. Many of the classic tropes of world at war fiction makes for some rich adventuring possibilities here.
Then, onward to what we were given in the original boxed set. This would be the harsh desert world, with a limited number of city-states, and sorcerer-monarchs firmly entrenched in each. Gladiator games, slavery, tribes of escaped slaves, the rise of the merchant houses, and more, enrich this era. Some sorcerer-monarchs die along the way during this age. The end of this is the Pentad events, with upheaval, the first free city is millennia, and more.
Finally, the future, but more grim than the 2E Revised box made it out to be: Dregoth is more dangerous than Borys was, and much more ambitious; The Kreen Empire is an extremely large threat, and only a sorcerer-monarch-less city-state stands between it and the rest of the Tyr Region
; The Obsidian Wastes are likewise a newly discovered, very dangerous, stark, and extraordinarily harsh environment to explore, and can pull in the Shadow source material that will be added later on. And so on and so forth.
With this sort of layout, you have a much more inclusive setting, with the ability to fulfill the 4E objective of opening up the possibility of everything published fitting into the campaign setting. This layout also emphasizes a part of Dark Sun I've always felt was present, and was expressed as being part of the setting by the original team: Athas is a world perpetually in change. Not just the countless minor changes eternally morphing the world like the beat of a butterfly's wings, but enormous, sweeping change that changes the entire face of the world.
I'm all for ditching the history and most of the big game changes that happened. Get back to the original material with the sorcerer kings and their cities, the sea of silt and the dragon... and Brom.
I wouldn't have minded so much if it wasn't for the fact the setting - straight out of the original box - was just so damn beautiful and evocative.
It was sort of like the Matrix movies in this sense: It was great at first when all the background of the world was still a mystery, but then it became crap when everything was revealed in the sequels and we realized that all of the crazy theories that fans came up with were all universally more interesting than the official background.
It was sort of like the Matrix movies in this sense: It was great at first when all the background of the world was still a mystery, but then it became crap when everything was revealed in the sequels and we realized that all of the crazy theories that fans came up with were all universally more interesting than the official background.
Exactly!!! ;) Leave it as a mystery, with possibilities given, for DM's to mull over, and use as ancient rumours/stories, that's enough
it's like Ravenloft, less is more.
It was sort of like the Matrix movies in this sense: It was great at first when all the background of the world was still a mystery, but then it became crap when everything was revealed in the sequels and we realized that all of the crazy theories that fans came up with were all universally more interesting than the official background.
Haha... yeah. :D Would you go so far as to say that, like The Matrix, the designers of DS ended up just throwing in a ton of ideas and buzz-words/concepts they thought were cool at the time, without actually thinking any deeper about the context in which they might be used?
I'm almost tempted. ;)
On a different note, anyone want the return of the flipbook format?
This point is surprisingly easy to address, but goes somewhat against your first point: Give a separate section of the book for each Age, and both campaign and character suggestions for each.
(description follows)
Yes please, do this.