So, I'm not sure if there's already a thread for this, but I'll go ahead and blunder forth anyway.
I love Dark Sun, and am extremely excited for the chance to run it in 4E; however, I have a problem with the way defiling is being handled.
First off, it bugs me that the secondary effects only target your allies. I know this is a game balance issue, but defiling is such an important part to the story of Dark Sun that I think it shouldn't be confined to those lines. Let defiling be powerful and dangerous, even to those that aren't on your side.
Along the same lines of "powerful and dangerous", I also don't feel that there's enough to entice an arcanist to use arcane defiling. A single reroll doesn't do enough to make it desirable-- you could always roll worse than the first time. Defiling is supposed to be power, and not using it should put the arcanist at a disadvantage.
And so, here is my home-brewed Arcane Defiling power. Feedback would be appreciated.
ARCANE DEFILING
At-Will; Free Action
Trigger: You use an arcane daily power, and dislike either the attack roll or the damage roll.
Effect: You re-roll the attack roll or the damage roll with a +2 bonus per tier. Every living creature within 20 squares is slowed until the end of your next turn and loses one healing surge. In addition, any dying creature within 20 squares instantly fails one death save.
Special: You can also use arcane defiling with any ritual requiring an Arcana check, granting you the same +2 bonus per tier to the skill roll.
First off, it bugs me that the secondary effects only target your allies. I know this is a game balance issue, but defiling is such an important part to the story of Dark Sun that I think it shouldn't be confined to those lines. Let defiling be powerful and dangerous, even to those that aren't on your side.
It is! You get a chance to do full damage on a miss.
A problem with targeting healing surges is that NPCs are quite likely to defile, and so this is just a big "screw you" to the players. Every encounter will require an extended rest after because noone will have healing surges left.
Slowed doesn't mean as much in Dark Sun, the Mul racial power kinda looks at the slowed condition, shrugs, and keeps going. The Monk power dancing cobra almost cancels out the slowed effect. Get an all or near-all Mul party with a few monks, defile at the beginning of the encounter, and swoop in.
Also, few NPCs (and I don't recall any monsters) have healing surges. And regarding monster death saving throws:
DM: "Ok, the monster is dead."
Player 1: "No, wait, it's still got it's three saving throws!"
DM: *slackjawed blank stare, giving way to an eyebrow raise*
Player 2 hits Player 1.
Player 1: "Hey!" *Turns to DM* "... Right?"
DM hits Player 1.
Or:
Player 1: "Yes! It's dead!"
DM: "Uh... No, it's still got it's three death saving throws."
Player 1: *slackjawed blank stare, giving way to an eyebrow raise*
Player 1 hits the DM with his PHB.
DM: "Hey!" *Turns to Player 2* "... Right?"
Player 2 manages to throw an unopened can of Mountain Dew at the DM before the rest of the players grab ahold of Player 2 to keep him from turning the DM's screen into the DM's colon's screen.
Also, few NPCs (and I don't recall any monsters) have healing surges.
Monsters having healing surges; Levels 1-10 have 1, 11-20 have 2, 21+ have 3. However, most monsters have no way to spend those surges, so losing them is not a particuarly big deal.
If anything, you've made it target only allies even more. Also, an at-will that lets you reroll means a lot when you roll 5 or lower. Not having that reroll is a disadvantage.
A problem with targeting healing surges is that NPCs are quite likely to defile, and so this is just a big "screw you" to the players. Every encounter will require an extended rest after because noone will have healing surges left.
Slowed doesn't mean as much in Dark Sun, the Mul racial power kinda looks at the slowed condition, shrugs, and keeps going. The Monk power dancing cobra almost cancels out the slowed effect. Get an all or near-all Mul party with a few monks, defile at the beginning of the encounter, and swoop in.
Also, few NPCs (and I don't recall any monsters) have healing surges. And regarding monster death saving throws:
DM: "Ok, the monster is dead."
Player 1: "No, wait, it's still got it's three saving throws!"
DM: *slackjawed blank stare, giving way to an eyebrow raise*
Player 2 hits Player 1.
Player 1: "Hey!" *Turns to DM* "... Right?"
DM hits Player 1.
Or:
Player 1: "Yes! It's dead!"
DM: "Uh... No, it's still got it's three death saving throws."
Player 1: *slackjawed blank stare, giving way to an eyebrow raise*
Player 1 hits the DM with his PHB.
DM: "Hey!" *Turns to Player 2* "... Right?"
Player 2 manages to throw an unopened can of Mountain Dew at the DM before the rest of the players grab ahold of Player 2 to keep him from turning the DM's screen into the DM's colon's screen.
Obviously, death saves only apply to PC's-- monsters simply die. And surges are, indeed, largely unimportant to monsters (although all monsters have one surge per tier, they have no way to use them). However, the slowed effect would be at least something that affects all creatures equally, as opposed to the current defiling magic that apparently only targets people who split XP with you.
NPC defiliers are, if I understand it correctly, largely just "monsters", and thus have their own defiling mechanisms. Nibenay, from the excerpt, had impressively powerful defiling magic that targeted only enemies, for example.
I'd change the 20 square bit to 1 square per Power Level.
I like it....
Leeching surges actually seems more appropriate. It's less immediately painful and fits with the whole "draining life force" thing.
It doesn't target surges (actually, I would like this better) but rather does damage equal to half your surge value (that is, 1/8 of your total HP).
Leeching surges actually seems more appropriate. It's less immediately painful and fits with the whole "draining life force" thing.
It will also mean an end to defiling used by players.
I can't really picture many situations where a hit or damage reroll on a single power is worth a collective of 5-6 healing surges for the party.
Arcane characters would either stay away from defiling or stay away from having a party.
I'm not completely psyched (even if I like it) by the official take on defiling, but the one suggested here is a total disaster. Defiling becomes useless for players and too powerful for enemies.
It will also mean an end to defiling used by players.
I can't really picture many situations where a hit or damage reroll on a single power is worth a collective of 5-6 healing surges for the party.
Consider instead that the price is lower, and that the defiler picks from whom he or she draws this life energy (including herself?), or maybe simply by proximity. Besides, I've never been in a party that completely ran dry on surges before the end of the typical "work day."
I mean, the current implementation already takes away the rough equivalent of 2 surges from your party, only it's front-end, meaning it needs to be fixed immediately. If the 2 surges were actually surges, you may never have to "worry" about that damage, except in that it increases the urgency and danger of later encounters.
Only if the power specifies it.It will also mean an end to defiling used by players.
I can't really picture many situations where a hit or damage reroll on a single power is worth a collective of 5-6 healing surges for the party.
Consider instead that the price is lower, and that the defiler picks from whom he or she draws this life energy (including herself?), or maybe simply by proximity. Besides, I've never been in a party that completely ran dry on surges before the end of the typical "work day."
I mean, the current implementation already takes away the rough equivalent of 2 surges from your party, only it's front-end, meaning it needs to be fixed immediately. If the 2 surges were actually surges, you may never have to "worry" about that damage, except in that it increases the urgency and danger of later encounters.
Consider how prominent temporary hit points are in non-cleric leader mechanics and general defender mechanics; surges are a form of currency that becomes much more precious once you let MM3 monsters loose.
i mean, isnt that the whole point of defiling?
it is a moderate edge to spell casting (a buff to damage or maybe recharge an encounter/daily power) at a totally huge cost to the world around you (nothing grows in a defiled zone for a year or more!). i mean, thats one of the BIG reasons why athas is like it is.
defiling should be something a bit overpowered with no apologies.
and i dont mean that there are NO repercussions!!!
if the character wants to, let them defile in the city and see what the templars and mob have to say about it since it centers on them.
or do it in the wilderness and let's see what the druid/warden that guards these lands has to say! ; )
in battle, it should be a huge temptation!
and out of battle, it should be no end of trouble for the PC and promote role-play and lots of running for one's life. : )
I suppose if you wrote up an NPC templar or druid for every level, and have it so instead of defiling dealing damage, a templar or druid of party level shows up with a few minions the next round every time a caster defiles, or a few templars or druids show up with plenty of minions (i.e. new encounter) if the encounter ends before then (becoming a hard encounter).
You could alter the templar theme so that they can get away with defiling in their home city, but defiling elsewhere will bring double the number of druids or templars.
In the interests of DnD being a game, the Defiling rule works well.
There will be feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies improving on a PC's Arcane Defiling At-Will power, so we'll see if those can transform it into an enemy-damaging mechanism, and even if it can be prevented from hurting allies.
you coud do the same thing without doing damage by giving slow and weaken condition to creatures in the vicinity of the defiling. you are almost taking a round from them...
the only thing is that making it work that way makes it useless since a round away from every creature, so you are taking a round from the game. same is true with the slow and healing surge idea, althought the healing surge drain only affects the players as it have been said before.
If i'm not mistaken there's a magic weapon that gives you TempHP against defiling...
How is that different from just giving you temporary hit points? Isn't all damage taken from temporary hit points first anyway?
If i'm not mistaken there's a magic weapon that gives you TempHP against defiling...
How is that different from just giving you temporary hit points? Isn't all damage taken from temporary hit points first anyway?
If you have one of these weapons then your leader doesn't need to give YOU TempHP.
Warlocks can deploy TempHP by that paragon feat too.
TempHP don't stack also.
EDIT: and i'm saying this to prove that defiling is good as it is, people can gather tempHP in various ways, from itens to powers. IMHO giving your warlock a reroll on his *big badass red button of ultimate doom daily* is quite worth 1/8 hitpoints.
If i'm not mistaken there's a magic weapon that gives you TempHP against defiling...
How is that different from just giving you temporary hit points? Isn't all damage taken from temporary hit points first anyway?
Only in that it's specifically triggered by arcane defiling.
One easy fix is to have the 1/8 surge damage effect everyone but minions. Not to say they don't feel the defiling, they do, its just unbalanced to have every minion pop just cause the party warlock re-rolled his daily. I really hate the way it only effects allies. As a weapon it should target everything in the radius.
My next gripe is that it can only be done on daily attack powers. What's with that? Sure plants die with anyspell casting but to defile is to defile. Why doesn't a 7th level encounter qualify to do this when a 1st level daily does?
I think my perceptions stem from long years of playing DS.
Another fix I thought of is take it from the realm of HP and just apply a -1 to all d20 rolls until the begining of the defilers next turn, for everyone but the caster friend and foe.
I got lucky for a while as no one in my group is touching the arcane power source when we pick up DS. I guess I did a good job showing that it's hard to be arcane on Athas in all those prior games.
I'm a bit late to the party but I've thought alot about this new defiling...
One easy fix is to have the 1/8 surge damage effect everyone but minions. Not to say they don't feel the defiling, they do, its just unbalanced to have every minion pop just cause the party warlock re-rolled his daily. I really hate the way it only effects allies. As a weapon it should target everything in the radius.
My next gripe is that it can only be done on daily attack powers. What's with that? Sure plants die with anyspell casting but to defile is to defile. Why doesn't a 7th level encounter qualify to do this when a 1st level daily does?
I think my perceptions stem from long years of playing DS.
I would say that defiling does not count as a weapon. I think it should have been an X burst, maybe by tier in 4E, and anyone in it should have lost a healing surge. Then, at least, if you do have a PC defiler, they can make a choice to move away.
turlough
Then, at least, if you do have a PC defiler, they can make a choice to move away.
Or kill them.
I'm a bit late to the party but I've thought alot about this new defiling...
One easy fix is to have the 1/8 surge damage effect everyone but minions. Not to say they don't feel the defiling, they do, its just unbalanced to have every minion pop just cause the party warlock re-rolled his daily. I really hate the way it only effects allies. As a weapon it should target everything in the radius.
My next gripe is that it can only be done on daily attack powers. What's with that? Sure plants die with anyspell casting but to defile is to defile. Why doesn't a 7th level encounter qualify to do this when a 1st level daily does?
I think my perceptions stem from long years of playing DS.
Another fix I thought of is take it from the realm of HP and just apply a -1 to all d20 rolls until the begining of the defilers next turn, for everyone but the caster friend and foe.
I got lucky for a while as no one in my group is touching the arcane power source when we pick up DS. I guess I did a good job showing that it's hard to be arcane on Athas in all those prior games.
I agree with you. Defiling is weak.
Here is what I've come up with as an alternative, feel free to have a good laugh and tear it apart.
Defile (Free Action, At-will)
Before or after you make an Arcane attack you can defile the square you occupy. Roll a d4 and add the die result to your attacks bonus to hit. If you have already hit, or the resulting increase to the attack roll causes you to hit, you can use the remainder of the die roll, to add to the damage of your attack. This damage can applied only to a single target even if there are multiple targets affected by the attack.
Brutal Defiling (Minor Action, Encounter)
You can increase your defiling to an area burst 1 centered on you. All living creatures in this burst writhe in pain and take a -1 to attack rolls and skill checks until the start of your next turn. You can add an additional 1d4 (2d4 total) to the your attacks bonus to hit or damage for the triggering attack. This damage can applied only to a single target even if there are multiple targets affected by the attack.
Reckless Defiling (2nd Minor Action, Daily)
You can increase the area of you defiling to a burst 2. All living creatures in this burst take an additional -1 (-2 total) to attack rolls and skill checks until the start of your next turn. You can add an additional 2d4 (4d4 total) to your attacks bonus to hit or damage for the triggering attack. This damage can applied only to a single target even if there are multiple targets affected by the attack.
So basically it adds a small, variable bonus to hit and anything left over gets applied to damage.
Giving the Defiler a bit of a striker feel to it.
At the encounter level it is more on par with the Thri-keen racial attack power, though it puts out less damage because there is no strength bonus or multiple target bonus.
The Daily power bumps up the power out put even more.
Why on earth would anyone not defile?
Because defiling is *bad*.
I guess this is the problem I have with mechanical discussions of defiling and tradeoffs. There shouldn't be tradeoffs. Defiling is supposed to be easier and more powerful than preserving.
The reason not to do it is the same reason you don't, for instance, torture captives or kill the innkeeper instead of paying him for the room. It's bad. It's an inherently evil act.
I think a revised ruleset for defiling needs to provide a constant temptation for players to be interesting. Defiling's consequences are paid by someone else, at some distant future time -- the land becomes a little less hospitable, a little less able to support life.
(Defiling is a pretty thinly-veiled metaphor for modern industry, and very much about negative externalities. So you trash the local environment. So what? There's always more scrubland out there somewhere, and someone else will clean up the mess you left.)
Because defiling is *bad*.
I guess this is the problem I have with mechanical discussions of defiling and tradeoffs. There shouldn't be tradeoffs. Defiling is supposed to be easier and more powerful than preserving.
The reason not to do it is the same reason you don't, for instance, torture captives or kill the innkeeper instead of paying him for the room. It's bad. It's an inherently evil act.
The problem, though, is that there are always those that will try to rationalize their behavior so that the "role-playing" negative becomes a non-issue. Besides, if you are not good in the first place then it is just another tool for you to use. As it stands now, you can still incorporate all those "role-playing" negatives along with the mechanical one.
The problem, though, is that there are always those that will try to rationalize their behavior so that the "role-playing" negative becomes a non-issue. Besides, if you are not good in the first place then it is just another tool for you to use. As it stands now, you can still incorporate all those "role-playing" negatives along with the mechanical one.
Ok, lemme put this a different way.
Would you, playing D&D, drag an innocent shopkeeper out into the street and behead him and then loot his shop?
If not, why not?
If you would, because that shopkeeper has thousands of gold worth of loot in his storeroom, then your character should be a defiler. It *should* be just another tool for you to use. Defilers are more powerful than preservers.
Frankly, I don't understand why 'role-playing' consequences are minimized in this kind of discussion, or why 'role-playing' needs to be put into quotes as if to suggest it's not a real consequence at all.
If you, or your players, are okay with torture, casual murder, and harming innocents for profit, then by all means, defile away! Dark Sun rewards you for your callous disregard for life; it's part of the setting that bad people are more powerful than good people.
The player can rationalize it all he likes -- in fact, he should be doing so, because all really interesting evil people try to justify their behavior to themselves and the world -- but he's still committing an inherently evil act, to which the rest of the setting will respond accordingly.
Ok, lemme put this a different way.
Would you, playing D&D, drag an innocent shopkeeper out into the street and behead him and then loot his shop?
If not, why not?
If you would, because that shopkeeper has thousands of gold worth of loot in his storeroom, then your character should be a defiler. It *should* be just another tool for you to use. Defilers are more powerful than preservers.
Frankly, I don't understand why 'role-playing' consequences are minimized in this kind of discussion, or why 'role-playing' needs to be put into quotes as if to suggest it's not a real consequence at all.
If you, or your players, are okay with torture, casual murder, and harming innocents for profit, then by all means, defile away! Dark Sun rewards you for your callous disregard for life; it's part of the setting that bad people are more powerful than good people.
The player can rationalize it all he likes -- in fact, he should be doing so, because all really interesting evil people try to justify their behavior to themselves and the world -- but he's still committing an inherently evil act, to which the rest of the setting will respond accordingly.
Players LIKE playing evil characters. That's why the evil races/classes are sooo popular! Tieflings, Warlocks, Assassins... they're making a whole book designed for evil classes called the shadow power source.
In effect, you want "evil" characters to be of higher level than the rest of the party? Why? They did that in 2nd edition and it was a bad concept (I mean the different XP progression for defilers and preservers).
Did you like that idea....?
Out of curiosity, how frequently do people here encounter players who, if they aren't constrained by a linear adventure structure, butcher innocents for short-term gain? I'm imagining the 'meet in a tavern' stock scene always ending in "... and then I kill the innkeeper's family and loot their bodies, too."
There's a discussion about rerolling to be the equivalent of gaining +5 to an attack roll somewhere around the CharOp boards I think, and given the fact that you can use this for every initial attack/damage roll you make with a daily, means a Wizard with, let's say, Sleep, is almost assured that he actually hits his targets at the "mere" cost of dealing 1/8th his party's HP per initial attack roll.
If he targets 8 creatures and makes 8 rerolls, he instantly drops his party to zero hit points. Or if one of his party members was already making death saving throws, he'd instantly die by the fifth reroll.
Now technically it should be defiling all things in the area, so if I were to handle it as a DM, I'd say that each square of vegitation within 20 squares of the caster would automatically wither and die, in addition to the damage to allies. Now while I'd probably want to make it "all creatures within 20" instead of "all allies within 20", the fact that 8 rerolls would certainly kill everyone around the caster regardless if the second attempt would hit or not, could easily neuter an encounter in this manner:
Have a party of 6 including yourself
Get Fireball
Have everyone including the big bad solo who is 20 levels higher than you, and yourself, in the blast
Make 8 rerolls (5 allies, 1 solo, yourself, and reroll the damage)
Epic solo dies, everyone starts pulling out death saving throws, and all the caster has to do is succeed on DC 10 to trigger Second Wind. [Even easier if we're talking about more "typical" encounters. ]
It would certainly break the game fun -- especially if the one who does this is the enemy controller who blows a daily to harm your entire party, and a few of his allies as well -- so instead it'd have to harm allies and vegitation instead [how vegitation would behave when withered or twisted by Defiling magic would be an interesting thing to tackle :p ].
Kurmudgeon's take on the whole thing is a bit too complicated if you ask me; to have the bonus to attack rolls carry over to damage rolls complicates things -- how would you know how much damage is added especially if the DM doesn't let you know how much the attack roll went over the minimum to-hit? -- and is actually weaker than the current Arcane Defiler at-will, because there's no actual "feel" of defiling, it's just an at-will striker-ish boost for Arcane casters. The penalty to hit and skill checks is very negligible, and it's just more like a distraction [like a generic mark or psychic lock] than anything actually threatening.
The OP's take on the whole thing could be better, but draining everyone's surges has negligible effect on enemies and a very lasting, yet ignorable, effect on allies. Healing surges are meant to let you go through more encounters without having to take extended rests (unlike in previous editions where you needed to take 8-hour rests after virtually every encounter, since you needed to recover spells and perhaps heal up a bit if the cleric had healing spells to spare), and the worst impact draining surges would be is to encourage extended rests... so it's all benefits for something that could be considered as a speed bump.
Given that there are feats that improve it, I'd say that the most I would do is this: add the following line:
Effect: If Arcane Defiler is used to reroll an attack roll and it hits, add +5 to the damage the attack deals to the target of the attack roll, and the said target suffers a -1 penalty to his next saving throw. If used to reroll a damage roll, add +5 to the damage the attack deals and treat a natural roll of 1 or 2 as if it were a 3.
That'd make the whole thing much more tempting and powerful, but would make allies want to steer clear of defilers.
Frankly, I don't understand why 'role-playing' consequences are minimized in this kind of discussion, or why 'role-playing' needs to be put into quotes as if to suggest it's not a real consequence at all.
Simply put: because it's a discussion of mechanics. Roleplaying consequences can be added or removed as per the needs of the group and have no bearing on mechanics whatsoever, no matter what level of immersion you maintain.
Regardless, mechanics never hinder narrative.
If the only meaningful interaction with the game setting for being 'evil' is 'mechanical benefit', then I guess that's a problem with the specific game. I don't commonly get players who murder innocent travelers on the road for profit, but perhaps that's a more widespread problem than I'm aware.
Out of curiosity, how frequently do people here encounter players who, if they aren't constrained by a linear adventure structure, butcher innocents for short-term gain? I'm imagining the 'meet in a tavern' stock scene always ending in "... and then I kill the innkeeper's family and loot their bodies, too."
A DM I know only played an evil character once, and yes he essentially played to that degree.
Here's the thing about the current Arcane Defiler, which is why it is more powerful an option than merely attempting to preserve:
* The only class that even remotely has this feature -- the Avenger, with his Oath of Enmity -- can only reroll his melee attacks against one target (unless with a feat, or as specified by the power used), which he cannot change until the end of an encounter (without using an encounter power), and he can't even use the feature when he is adjacent to even one other opponent.
* This at-will, as written, grants one reroll per initial attack roll or damage roll of a daily power, with likely boosts to the granted reroll through feats (if we're talking dedicated defilers), which can be done for every arcane daily power he has, or even with an encounter or at-will power with an action point as mentioned earlier. So when you have a Defiling Dragon Sorcerer with Lightning Breath Daily attack power, the chance to make his attack count and assure him high damage might be enough for him to have his allies take essentially 1/4th their HP in damage, or more, depending on the number of initial attack rolls he wishes to reroll.
In other words, the at-will would currently function as an en masse form of Oath of Enmity, that would work with any daily [or even with any encounter or at-will power, with a feat and an AP], and even rerolls damage on top of rerolling attacks, makes even the default version of Arcane Defiling a very powerful tool. Especially if you make use of it with something like Sleep.
All for the cost of 1/2 of each ally's healing surge value [which would actually put Dwarves at a disadvantage here, given that Dwarven Durability increases their healing surge value].
[EDIT: you might even want to reroll an attack when an ally is suddenly included in the area of effect of your daily power... particularly if it's a crit (at least while you don't have the feat that would allow you to transfer crit damage to a different creature in the burst); better 4 points of damage at level 1 assuming 33 HP -- with the possibility to turn it into a miss -- than 34 damage from a crit with a 3d10 + modifier daily.]
* The only class that even remotely has this feature -- the Avenger, with his Oath of Enmity -- can only reroll his melee attacks against one target (unless with a feat, or as specified by the power used), which he cannot change until the end of an encounter (without using an encounter power), and he can't even use the feature when he is adjacent to even one other opponent.
To be fair, he regains the use of the power when his opponent dies, so he should have it for the entire encounter against a single opponent. This does not in any way invalidate your point, however.
But to put it in better perspective, this is the equivalent of a racial encounter power (Elven Accuracy), only made at-will, restricted to your best powers, and at the cost of (on average) 2 healing surges, pulled from your party members.
Considering that losing 2 surges to grant an ally 1 surge is worthy of a level 7 daily item power, that's pretty damn powerful. I know I'd gladly trade in two surges (or even take my bloodied value in damage) for a reroll on specific daily powers.
Now to get that benefit, I have to either damage my allies without their permission (not something I typically allow in my campaign) or con them into taking the damage so I can get off this important daily.
I don't have my books to read the flavor though. Does the land still wither and die from every spell? Can it be felt but just not harmful in the way of HP on non-daily powers? If so I'm much happier.
What bothers me is that a life time defiler can rip at-will and encounter powers in the forest and kill nothing around him. That's weak and totally against the spirit of what defiling has done to the world.
My only issue with it is that only effects allies and not all creatures in the radius. I can understand that it shouldn't auto pop minions but for the effect to only select from your allies seems very odd to me. All creatures feel the defiling. If it had just said this does not effect minions I would have very little issue with it beyond the daily only thing.
I don't have my books to read the flavor though. Does the land still wither and die from every spell? Can it be felt but just not harmful in the way of HP on non-daily powers? If so I'm much happier.
What bothers me is that a life time defiler can rip at-will and encounter powers in the forest and kill nothing around him. That's weak and totally against the spirit of what defiling has done to the world.
The explanation can be quite logical.
Defiling should at the more natural level affect vegetation and unliving matter; absorbing life force is a step above, a further degree of channeling. You can assume that the defiling attempt is sort of an attack, and while enemies engaged in combat would have some sort of unconscious defence up (psionics?) your allies don't perceive you as an immediate threat and their mind is "open" and doesn't protect the body.
Very powerful defilers like SKs reach a level of mastery that allows them to defile using even the enemies' lifeforce, by bypassing their defences. If there is no feat support to allow epic tier players to do the same, you can probably houserule it.
If the only meaningful interaction with the game setting for being 'evil' is 'mechanical benefit', then I guess that's a problem with the specific game. I don't commonly get players who murder innocent travelers on the road for profit, but perhaps that's a more widespread problem than I'm aware.
I believe mechanics and storylines should be separated. If players are committing "evil" acts, there should be some in-game effect. Like a short-term reward with a long-term reprecution. Sure, murdering the customers of the tavern removes witnesses, but puts the local authorities on your trail... mechanical-wise, the party remains the same.
Out of curiosity, how frequently do people here encounter players who, if they aren't constrained by a linear adventure structure, butcher innocents for short-term gain? I'm imagining the 'meet in a tavern' stock scene always ending in "... and then I kill the innkeeper's family and loot their bodies, too."
It depends on the DM and the players and their campaigns they run. I've played many a campaign with backstabbing party members, thieves that steal gold from their friends, tieflings with urges to slaughter the local population that sometimes overtakes them, warlocks that are 'encouraged' to take blood of the innocents for rituals, intelligent items that cause mayhem.
The players just laugh at it all... usually.
I've played campaigns where no matter how "good" one tries to be, the DM turned the acts into "evil" acts (my LG Paladin eventually committed suicide).
I don't have my books to read the flavor though. Does the land still wither and die from every spell? Can it be felt but just not harmful in the way of HP on non-daily powers?
According to one of the design and development articles (or one of Rich Baker's blogs, I can't remember), harming the land had little effect on the mechanics of the game - and it wasn't enough incentive not to defile. Thus, defiling DOES harm the land/plant life around the caster, but it's mostly* flavor.
*DM's discretion, as always.
One really good thing about the new rules: it explains why defilers tend to be loners! They don't make good teammates.
One possibility I'm discussing with players is that defiling would have no immediate negative consequence, but would instead build up a secret 'corruption point' pool on the user. This point pool might, each time the caster defiles, cause Something Bad to happen to them, ranging from cosmetic to character-altering.
I frankly don't find defiling interesting unless every arcane caster is always tempted to use it every time they cast a spell.
A DM might allow defiling with the use of any arcane power* (DM's discretion, but the situation should be dire), or similiarily, when an action point is used for an arcane attack power.
A DM might allow defiling with the use of any arcane power* (DM's discretion, but the situation should be dire), or similiarily, when an action point is used for an arcane attack power.
There is a feat that allows for the use of defiling with an encounter or at-will with the cost of an action point.
Defiling isn't ONCE per power? Rerolling like 3 attacks, and 2 damage rolls for the same power and draining 2 surges and a half from everybody seems odd to me...
It is once per power.
Another idea I had that would effect all arcane spells would be to apply weapon properties to defiled spells. For example: any spell cast via defiling would gain the brutal 2 and high crit property. Might not effect every spell cast but would come up often enough to make it worth defiling ALL the time in the hopes for tha better damage. Under this variant I would drop the whole surge thing and just go with a one round -1 penalty to all creatures in the radius other than the caster. Enough to anger your friends and enemies but not so drastic as 1/8 their HP.
I also like the idea of a "taint" for preservers who try it every so often.
I'm with the "it's not interesting unless it effects every arcane spell cast" like 2/3e version. If all the plants die with every spell and it makes all in the radius a bit queasy but doesn't get the mechanical benefit unless it's a daily, I guess that works but some thing that works on all arcane attacks woudl have been better.
The preview indicated that this was the case, with the exception that defilers (or preservers for that matter) can attempt to mask their magic (likely as another type of magic or psionics) with a Bluff check.
I understand defilers generally don't care much about the world around them, but at-wills and encounter powers seem easy enough spells to pull off without requiring much if any drawing of energy of the world around them. It would seem to me only the most disney cartoon villain defilers would defile to cast at-wills or encounter powers which is why it probably requires a feat.
Its kinda like murdering your own party members. Sometimes they have something that you REALLY want and decide to kill them and take their stuff or they offend your PC and you do some sort of honor killing. This is generally considered evil and bad for the group, but is possible among a group of PCs. Sometimes you have a character who just really enjoys killing party members for the sake of killing party members even though it provides little significant benefit to themselves. This is considered VERY evil almost to the point of cartoon evil and is usually even outside the domain of evil parties. The first case is what defiling dailies only by default is like. The second is what defiling every spell is like.
Defilers may be evil and destructive, but I doubt all except the most depraved are the smash and kill kittens because they walked in front of you type of evil.
Defiling isn't ONCE per power? Rerolling like 3 attacks, and 2 damage rolls for the same power and draining 2 surges and a half from everybody seems odd to me...It is once per power.
I read it as "each attack roll or damage roll", with the exception that the new attack/damage roll cannot be rerolled.
Arcane Defiling | Arcane FeatureAt-Will
You make an attack roll or a damage roll as part of an arcane daily attack power
Free Action | Personal
Trigger:
Effect: You can reroll the triggering roll and you must use the second result, but each ally within 20 squares of you takes damage equal to half his or her healing surge value. This damage cannot be reduced in any way.
Special: You can use this power to reroll each attack roll or damage roll only once.
From Vinara's Character Sheet.
As it's a free action triggered by an attack roll or damage roll as part of an arcane daily attack power, the main limitation here would be the number of free actions per round. If the DM would restrict your use of free actions for Arcane Defiling to once per daily, then it'd be more sane, but if he doesn't, then you can alter each triggering roll and deal to each ally damage equal to half their healing surge value. Which can potentially kill them with enough rerolls.
EDIT: IF the daily we are talking about targets only one opponent, then it's safe to say it is only two rerolls at best [one damage, one attack]. If it's area damage rerolls though...
I don't think there's any confusion anymore.
According to www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d... Design and Development article, the power can only be used once per daily attack power:"Special: You can use this effect once for any arcane daily attack power you use, affecting any single attack roll or the damage roll for that power."
I don't think there's any confusion anymore.
Thank goodness its only once per daily. I'd hate to have to kill a fellow defiler party member in his sleep just because he has the ability to TPK us near instantly if he gets upset midfight.
By the math, the character can never do more damage to his allies than their bloodied value each day, barring a few specific game elements that allow one to regain a daily.
The first is the allies-only aspect, the second is the mechanical outcome, and the third is how often it can be used (dailies only). I really only agree about the third problem, as I prefer that defiling be an ever-present temptation; the urge to defile might even apply to at-wills now and then: consider the wizard who rolled max damage on Scorching Burst but missed.
For allies-only, I agree that this feels a little strange, but VisanidethDM's explanation was quite good: allies are receptive to you. By being your ally, a creature agrees to join you in defeating a common danger. Call it a psychic link, shared life force, or whatever, but it's not really a big stretch to find a mechanical explanation for it, any more than it's hard to explain why healing powers (like Spirit of the Healing Flood) can be allies-only bursts.
I also like how this aspect of the mechanic actually reinforces the hatred of defilers. Defilers are people who harm their own friends for an arcane edge. That said, I understand the desire to make defiling affect everyone, given that defiling is bad for all life. Unfortunately, the need to impose a mechanical penalty limits how the cost of defiling should be paid and who pays that cost, taking us to the third point.
The mechanical representation of defiling could have, it seems, been handled in any number of ways: HP damage, surges, weakened, granting combat advantage, dazed, etc. For instance, it could have been handled by all creatures granting combat advantage for a round.
There are issues with a condition-based approach. The first is that such conditions can be applied strategically to mitigate the cost. If everyone ends up weakened but the last enemy is killed by the defiled power, who cares? Players can get pretty good at tracking enemy HPs (since they usually get to know when a creature is bloodied) and thus do the math, determining that they can ramp up the warlock's blast at perhaps no cost to themselves.
The second issue is that predictable conditions are very easy to exploit or ignore. If the defiling downside makes all creatures weakened, for instance, the PCs might spend the next round using second wind, moving to reposition, etc. and end up not suffering, while the monsters, with fewer action types in their pocket, are hurt more.
Other conditions, like all creatures in the burst granting combat advantage, will be quickly seen by the PCs as a boon: the rogue will beg for the sorcerer to defile so he can sneak attack the brutes, who haven't had any trouble hitting the PCs anyway. The defiler himself doesn't care, since he's 10 squares away from trouble anyway.
So, the defiling cost needs to be difficult to exploit, and HPs fit the bill nicely. They are very easy to track and it's always bad to lose them, making the cost real. The only way to avoid the matter is to have every PC gain temps before a potential act of defiling or to have everyone with enough HPs to not care if they take a little damage before the end of a fight.
If the same condition is applied to monsters, however, there are two problems. The first is minions, obviously: defiling would be among the best AoEs in the game. Even if we eliminate minions from consideration, we still have trouble. It's still very exploitable by PCs - even if the rerolled daily still misses, the massive damage burst is probably worth it anyway, especially when monsters outnumber PCs.
Thank goodness its only once per daily. I'd hate to have to kill a fellow defiler party member in his sleep just because he has the ability to TPK us near instantly if he gets upset midfight.
By the math, the character can never do more damage to his allies than their bloodied value each day, barring a few specific game elements that allow one to regain a daily.
Thats why I'm saying its great that they have the "once per daily" clause attached. If it didn't a defiler could hit 7 enemies with a daily, choose to reroll every single attack roll, reroll the damage roll, and deal his own party roughly 100% of their hit points in damage while not taking any damage himself.
Hmm, with the idea that enemies would be able to psionically defend themselves against the harmful effects of defiling in mind, why not go for this:
Arcane Defiling | Arcane Feature
At-Will
Free Action | Personal
Trigger: You make an attack roll or a damage roll as part of an arcane attack power
Effect: You can reroll the triggering roll and you must use the second result, but each ally within 20 squares of you takes damage equal to half his or her healing surge value. This damage cannot be reduced in any way. In addition, each creature other than your allies within 20 squares of you must make a saving throw. Creatures who fail their saving throw take damage equal to half his or her healing surge value.
Special: You can use this effect once for any arcane attack power you use, affecting any single attack roll or the damage roll for that power.
The feat that would allow the use of Arcane Defiling w/ at-wills & encounter powers at the cost of an action point could be altered to: "Whenever you use Arcane Defiling, you can spend an action point to add +4 to the triggering roll, but the damage taken by each creature from Arcane Defiling is equal to his or her healing surge value, instead of half".
[ Am I correct to assume that minions have a healing surge value of 0, and thus would not be affected by Arcane Defiling even on a failed saving throw? ]
Creatures in general do not have healing surges. It wouldn't affect them.
That's not right, they have them, one per tier. The issue is they usually have no way of using them like a PC does.
Chaos Fang has a good point about minions not having a "surge value" though. 1/4 of 1hp is .25hp rounded down to 0 for a total damage taken of 0. So minions aren't really the issue here. Never thought of it that way Chaos Fang, thanks.
With that said, it should effect everyone on every spell (at-will, encounter, daily). Just have everyone roll a save to negate the damage, simple. It would add some rolls to the game but that in and of itself would make players not want a defiler hanging out with them if he's making them waste natural 20's on saves.
I'm real unhappy with the mechanic for defiling. Luckily no one is playing a arcane PC so I have time to think more about it.
That's not right, they have them, one per tier. The issue is they usually have no way of using them like a PC does.
Ah, righty. I forgot because they never get used.
What I am going to is:
Keep the rules as written (so as not to interfere with feats and such) and in addition allow defling chracters a +2 on any arcane damage roll. This +2 does come with the roleplay consequence of a burst 10 zone of blackened soil and dead plans. The original rules then represent an exceptional act of defiling.
countering a +2 damage bonus with just roleplay consequenses might not be right for your group, but mine will gobble it up.
defiling should be always tempting and available on any use of arcane power IMO
Great thread guys, lots of solid ideas floatin around
Creatures in general do not have healing surges. It wouldn't affect them.
Aside from what Bruul mentioned, even if healing surges per day = 0, you can still take damage equal to half your healing surge value, since the base value for healing surges is maxHP/4. After all, there are a number of pwoers that allow you to regain hit points "as if you spent a healing surge", so even if the target of said power has zero healing surges, he can still regain hit points equal to his healing surge value.
So a minion would take 0.125 damage, rounded down to 0 damage, while a 600 HP solo would take 150 damage. That is, of course, on a failed save... except solos get +5 to their saving throws, so it's going to be a very lucky roll (or a whole barrage of penalty to saves) to succeed on initiating that much damage.
[ It's likely better to have the penalties used on something like Sleep or Face of Death, since a party of 5 could readily pull off more than 150 damage worth of crits while the target is unconscious/helpless for a round BUT then again there IS that off chance a Wizard would use Sleep, use the reroll to hit, with the solo failing his saves twice, taking damage and have having to deal with unconscious/helpless state for one round. Sucks to be him for that though, since the chance for that to happen would be 4.8125%... assuming he took the -8 to his save versus the Arcane Defiling. ]
And as I said earlier, the latest alteration I've attempted to Arcane Defiling is to keep in line with the idea that defiler allies are more in tune with the defiler, making it very hard to defend themselves from the life-draining. I suppose at epic tier you could have a feat that lets alllies roll saves against taking damage, but that'd be optional.
A lot of these ideas seem to be nothing more than power inflation. You want it to do more, but it seems to be going past something you may do to something more like why wouldn't you? Much like it was in 2E Dark Sun. Free damage is free damage. It becomes too attractive.
Well, these guys want their 2E Dark Sun Arcane Defiling... and technically it IS the whole point of this thread.
Personally I'd just keep the whole setting as is -- including the supposedly-weak Arcane Defiling -- with the sole exception of the Runepriest due to the fact that the Runepriest draws his powers from divine Runes, rather than from any specific deity.
[ Would only allow my players to go for it, if they give a very good background story, or as a quest reward. Maybe have it changed to "Arcane" instead of "Divine". ]
Kind of takes defiling from something you might use in the right situation to why wouldn't you use it? Great if that works for your game but it is not something that works for me.
I like the +2 bonus per tier. It really can't effect enemies, but it perhaps it would gain the flavor that you seek if it also considered people that would be otherwise non-hostile (nearby merchants, etc.) as allies.
Another cool thing to do would be to have it also evaporate water.
Hmm, the more I learn about the current implementation of Arcane Defiling, the more I like it as is. It turns out that while the at-will version of Arcane Defiling is concerned with only one attack/damage roll with an arcane daily attack power, the ability to defile does, in fact, work with any arcane power. All you have to do is choose to defile, and the damage to the world you deal would be dependent on two things: DM discretion, and the type of power you use.
At the very least, you could defile the square you are in, although using daily arcane attack powers allows you to defile an additional number of squares away from you equal to half the daily power's level, so at most you can defile 29x29 squares of terrain.
[ There's an entry in the DS creature catalog on Defiled Terrain, which would allow mechanical benefits for defiling with any arcane power. This is likely in addition to whatever benefits you would grant the caster for simply defiling (not even using the Arcane Defiling at-will). ]
Given the feat support, paragon path, and epic destiny that revolves around arcane defiling -- you can pump up Arcane Defiling to let you do +12 damage, regain hit points, grant tempHP to allies after dealing them damage (lowering the harmfulness to allies) and even deal damage to a single nonminion opponent equal to half your healing surge value each time you use Arcane Defiling (you can actually combo it up to dishing out a total of 1.5x your healing surge value [using an AP to boost an encounter/at-will, once from the PP feature, and your regular reroll of the daily]) -- I'd say they actually did a nice job in mechanically representing the fluff of what arcane casters in Dark Sun would have to face: would they travel the path of light, of the Preserver, and bring life to others and to the planet... or would they turn to the dark side, to become Defilers, and bring death and destruction to the world?
They are free to choose their own path, just as any other character in game... with the unfortunate/inconvenient truth -- that it was arcane magic that destroyed their world, and thus everybody would despise them if they knew they were using it -- behind them.
Arcane Defiling | Arcane Feature
At-Will
Free Action | Personal
Trigger: You make an attack roll or a damage roll as part of an arcane daily attack power
Effect: You can reroll the triggering roll and you must use the second result, but each creature within the defiling radius squares takes a -1 penalty on all actions untill the next turn.
Special: You can use this effect once for any daily arcane attack power you use, affecting any single attack roll or the damage roll for that power. The defiling radius is equal to close + spell level.
Add in a disease mechanic that you roll on each time you use the Arcane Defiling mechanic. Cured end means you cast as a perserver > infected means that you can choose if your spells are defiling or preserving > defiler end means all spells you cast defile the land around you. (Even at will and encounter would defile the square you are in or radius equal to the spell level respectively.)
And once you are a defiler on the chart you must use a bluff check attempt to hide the defiling from your spell casting.
This still gives the "not a team player" feel to the defiler without it draining the resources too much from the party and gives a fair penalty to all around... and it even scales with the power of the spell.
Not on dragon magic... switch the defiling to drain healing surges... It really fits with the prior fluff and the draining of life essence, and the fact that even the toughest warrior could be drained by the spells.
Just a couple ideas I am planning to implement in my own games.
So, here's my take on Arcane Defiling.
Any arcane spell is faster to use. Such as a standard becomes a minor, a minor becomes a free. The defiling zone is a close burst equal to the defiler's level. It damages all creatures equal to 1/8 of their total hit points, 1 hit point being minimum. Minions get a saving throw to stave off the energy drain. This is a no-action class feature. It is continuous, unless they choose to preserve.
Preservers, on the other hand, get an inherent +1 untyped bonus from 1-10th level, +3 from 11-20th level, and +5 from 21-30th level to attack and damage rolls.
This way there's some semblance of balance. On the one hand, defiling magic is faster, and on the other hand preserver magic is more powerful.
There's another way this could be implemented. Keep the actions the same, however, you have to spend a minor action to preserve.
It is also my view that all arcane users start off as defilers by default and as they learn to control their powers, they have the option of becoming preservers.
Thoughts????
Any arcane spell is faster to use. Such as a standard becomes a minor, a minor becomes a free. The defiling zone is a close burst equal to the defiler's level. It damages all creatures equal to 1/8 of their total hit points, 1 hit point being minimum. Minions get a saving throw to stave off the energy drain. This is a no-action class feature. It is continuous, unless they choose to preserve.
Preservers, on the other hand, get an inherent +1 untyped bonus from 1-10th level, +3 from 11-20th level, and +5 from 21-30th level to attack and damage rolls.
This way there's some semblance of balance.
Holy balls, both of those are pretty much outrageous.
For doing a mere ~38% damage to each of my allies, I can drop 3 dailies this turn AND do 38% total HP damage to every enemy (which is WAY more than the damage I did to my allies), and being pretty much guaranteed to pop every minion (16% chance to survive), even if the dailies didn't.
And if I choose NOT to do that, I get free, untyped to-hit bonuses?
Don't even bother playing another power source!
What I'm getting at is that defilers have more speed in casting whereas preservers have more power. The power Arcane Defiling as it is now does not do that. If I was playing a wizard, I would never use the Arcane Defiling power because it is not tempting enough.
At-Will
Free Action | Personal
Trigger: You use a an Arcane Power.
Effect:
You cause an amout of damage, equal your best ability modifier, plus half the level of the power you are using, to all living beings in a burst of 2, +1 every 2 levels of the power you used.
This damage is necrotic, and cant be reduced by any means.
Minions with level greater them your level-5, dont receive the damage. If they have less them 6 levels more them you, instead they suffer in pain, and receive -2 to attacks, and defences for 2 rounds. And gain a defiling mark, that stays untill the end of the encounter.
If a minion receive 3 defiling marks, he dies.
The Arcane Power receives one of the following advantages at your choise:
+3 to Hit
Extra damage equals your best attribute modifier (x2 on Epic Tier) (If the power causes damage)
You can sustain the effect as free action for 3 turns (If the power have a sustain minor)
You can sustain the effect as minor action for 1 turn (If the power have a sustand standard or move)
You can use this effect on any arcane power you use.
As I said "Thoughts?" I know what I came up with could be improved greatly. What I have is just a starting point. If somebody could refine these mechanics to be more balanced against the other classes, it would be much appreciated.What I'm getting at is that defilers have more speed in casting whereas preservers have more power. The power Arcane Defiling as it is now does not do that. If I was playing a wizard, I would never use the Arcane Defiling power because it is not tempting enough.
It's impossible to have that balance when you want arcane casters to have a mechanical advantage over non-arcane casters.
* The current system has everyone being able to take a minor, free, standard, immediate, and opportunity action within an abstract of 6 seconds per round. That's 6 seconds regardless if you're using psionics, martial prowess, arcane power, or primal strength.
* "Faster casting" is technically removed from 4e -- in fact, the main relic of fast casting would be Quickened Spellcasting, and that's a 1/encounter minor action casting of a level 1 at-will only -- and granting Arcane powers the ability to be used as a minor/free action at any level even 1/encounter would make Arcane classes very desirable to poach powers from, which would be contrary to the Dark Sun design where Arcane classes are despised.
[ EDIT: Right, Chain Lightning minor action 1/encounter, combined with autodamaging enemies, not overpowered off the bat? Riiiiiiiight... ]
* Granting scaling untyped bonuses for non-defiling attacks gives an unfair advantage over non-Arcane classes, as they would have no inherent benefits for keeping to their class. Which again means they would be far better off going Arcane, which is again opposite of what you want players to do: keep away from Arcane classes because they are considered bad in Athas, regardless of purity of intent for becoming one.
- - - - -
If you want a mechanical benefit for Defiling/Preserving, you could simply mention this:
* When an arcane caster chooses to defile, each creature within squares that are turned into defiled terrain other than the caster is weakened and cannot regain hit points until the start of the caster's next turn. In addition, the caster gains temporary hit points equal to half the spell level cast (minimum 1).
* When an arcane caster chooses to preserve, the caster gains a +2 bonus to his Bluff checks to pass his spell off as psionic or primal instead of arcane.
Defilers have the following features:
1) creates a close burst zone equal to the defiler's level.
2) all creatures (including normal plants and insects) receive an amount of damage equal to the defiler's Int modifier.
2a) Minions whose levels are less than the defiler's level get a saving throw. A successful saving throw means the minion does not take the damage, but is weakened until the end of the defiler's next turn.
2b) Minions whose levels are equal to or greater than the defiler's level are do not take the damage, but are weakened until the end of the defiler's next turn.
Alternate 2) the defiler makes attack rolls vs all creatures in the zone. Minions take damage normally.
Preservers have the following features:
1) must use a minor action to make an arcane skill roll. DC equals 10 plus half level.
2) if the skill roll fails, the preserver made an error in the mechanics of preserving and ends up defiling instead (use the defiler mechanics above).
3) if the skill roll succeeds, the power is used as it stands.
4) if the skill roll succeeds by 5 or more, damage rolls gain a bonus equal to the perserver's level divided by 2.
Both have the following features:
1) use a free action for an easy arcana check to see if there is enough energy in the area to cast their spells.
2) If the arcanist is casting an arcane spell in an already "dead" zone, the arcanist receives a penalty to damage rolls equal to the arcanist's level divided by 2. (This last rule is to simulate spell casting in an area where there is no energy to draw from and they're using energy from their own reserves.)
Hopefully this revision balances well against other classes.
Again, any thoughts? Constructive criticisms?
You didn't understand what I typed, did you Astromath?
Again: It's impossible to have that balance when you want arcane casters to have a mechanical advantage over non-arcane casters.
Let's try this:Defilers have the following features:
1) creates a close burst zone equal to the defiler's level.
2) all creatures (including normal plants and insects) receive an amount of damage equal to the defiler's Int modifier.
2a) Minions whose levels are less than the defiler's level get a saving throw. A successful saving throw means the minion does not take the damage, but is weakened until the end of the defiler's next turn.
2b) Minions whose levels are equal to or greater than the defiler's level are do not take the damage, but are weakened until the end of the defiler's next turn.
Alternate 2) the defiler makes attack rolls vs all creatures in the zone. Minions take damage normally.
Preservers have the following features:
1) must use a minor action to make an arcane skill roll. DC equals 10 plus half level.
2) if the skill roll fails, the preserver made an error in the mechanics of preserving and ends up defiling instead (use the defiler mechanics above).
3) if the skill roll succeeds, the power is used as it stands.
4) if the skill roll succeeds by 5 or more, damage rolls gain a bonus equal to the perserver's level divided by 2.
Both have the following features:
1) use a free action for an easy arcana check to see if there is enough energy in the area to cast their spells.
2) If the arcanist is casting an arcane spell in an already "dead" zone, the arcanist receives a penalty to damage rolls equal to the arcanist's level divided by 2. (This last rule is to simulate spell casting in an area where there is no energy to draw from and they're using energy from their own reserves.)
Hopefully this revision balances well against other classes.Again, any thoughts? Constructive criticisms?
Let's break it down first, from the top downwards:
First off, how do you determine the amount of energy required for each and every spell, each and every time? Why should drawing from one's own energies be less potent than drawing from other forms of life... by sheer numbers of creatures? Or does willpower, hit points, or energy reserves have anything to do with it?
Second, WHY would you give arcane classes -- regardless if they're preservers or defilers -- a large mechanical advantage over all other classes? And how are you able to assume "balance" with other classes, with that advantage in mind?
Third, how come the defiling damage is based off the Intelligence modifier, given the presence of Arcane Strikers who don't always have Intelligence as a stat [namely Sorcerers and balanced Star Pact Warlocks]?
Finally, if defiling was that powerful right off the bat, then how do you balance the feats, paragon path and epic destiny that enhances your arcane defiling?
By the way, take note that, at least according to Wikipedia as well as other Dark Sun references I've looked up, preservers had zero mechanical advantages, outside of not being reported to Templars or being killed outright by everyone in the city because of your use of arcane magic... at least, not while people didn't know you were actually using arcane magic (since people didn't know what arcane magic was, but they knew that it destroyed most of Athas... even though the blame would lie primarily on defilers specifically).
It's no longer living creatures that defiling targets, its just plain creatures: undead, golems, humans. You no longer need to be alive to have a life force animating you. Defiling robs you of this life force, hence even golems and undead are affected. The silliness of the negative and positive energy planes is now a thing of the past.
Constructs and undead have NO lifeforce. They are magically animated. Hence why undead and many constructs are immune to death magic. You cant kill whats already dead, and being dead means you have no lifeforce.
Constructs and undead have NO lifeforce. They are magically animated. Hence why undead and many constructs are immune to death magic. You cant kill whats already dead, and being dead means you have no lifeforce.
Please provide the entry within MM1-MM3, or Open Grave, that states this mechanic.
You didn't understand what I typed, did you Astromath?
Again: It's impossible to have that balance when you want arcane casters to have a mechanical advantage over non-arcane casters.
Let's try this:Defilers have the following features:
1) creates a close burst zone equal to the defiler's level.
2) all creatures (including normal plants and insects) receive an amount of damage equal to the defiler's Int modifier.
2a) Minions whose levels are less than the defiler's level get a saving throw. A successful saving throw means the minion does not take the damage, but is weakened until the end of the defiler's next turn.
2b) Minions whose levels are equal to or greater than the defiler's level are do not take the damage, but are weakened until the end of the defiler's next turn.
Alternate 2) the defiler makes attack rolls vs all creatures in the zone. Minions take damage normally.
Preservers have the following features:
1) must use a minor action to make an arcane skill roll. DC equals 10 plus half level.
2) if the skill roll fails, the preserver made an error in the mechanics of preserving and ends up defiling instead (use the defiler mechanics above).
3) if the skill roll succeeds, the power is used as it stands.
4) if the skill roll succeeds by 5 or more, damage rolls gain a bonus equal to the perserver's level divided by 2.
Both have the following features:
1) use a free action for an easy arcana check to see if there is enough energy in the area to cast their spells.
2) If the arcanist is casting an arcane spell in an already "dead" zone, the arcanist receives a penalty to damage rolls equal to the arcanist's level divided by 2. (This last rule is to simulate spell casting in an area where there is no energy to draw from and they're using energy from their own reserves.)
Hopefully this revision balances well against other classes.Again, any thoughts? Constructive criticisms?
Let's break it down first, from the top downwards:First off, how do you determine the amount of energy required for each and every spell, each and every time? Why should drawing from one's own energies be less potent than drawing from other forms of life... by sheer numbers of creatures? Or does willpower, hit points, or energy reserves have anything to do with it?
Second, WHY would you give arcane classes -- regardless if they're preservers or defilers -- a large mechanical advantage over all other classes? And how are you able to assume "balance" with other classes, with that advantage in mind?
Third, how come the defiling damage is based off the Intelligence modifier, given the presence of Arcane Strikers who don't always have Intelligence as a stat [namely Sorcerers and balanced Star Pact Warlocks]?
Finally, if defiling was that powerful right off the bat, then how do you balance the feats, paragon path and epic destiny that enhances your arcane defiling?
By the way, take note that, at least according to Wikipedia as well as other Dark Sun references I've looked up, preservers had zero mechanical advantages, outside of not being reported to Templars or being killed outright by everyone in the city because of your use of arcane magic... at least, not while people didn't know you were actually using arcane magic (since people didn't know what arcane magic was, but they knew that it destroyed most of Athas... even though the blame would lie primarily on defilers specifically).
Mr. Chaos. I'm looking for constructive criticism, not just criticism. If you think there's something that needs to be changed in my "revision", please make suggestions that could make it better balanced against the other classes. I will only admit that my first version, after looking at it is a bit unbalanced when compared to the other classes. That is why I came up with this dumbed down version which I believe has a better class vs class balance.
I personally do not like the power Arcane Defiling as it stands now. There's just not enough of a difference between the defiler and the preserver to warrent its use. I'm basing my version from what I've read in the Prism Pentad series. I'm trying to come up with a version that is balanced against the other classes while keeping the difference between the defilers and preserves in the spirit of Dark Sun.
Once more, could you please come up with a way that my version is better balanced against the other classes instead of saying that my version is not balanced.
Again, have you even seen the support the defiler gets?
By level 1, a Human Wizard Defiler can use a Daily power, use Arcane Defiling to reroll an attack/damage roll, inflict -2 penalty to all enemies hit by the power, use an action point to make an encounter/at-will attack, use Arcane Defiling to reroll an attack/damage roll, and all your allies have to pay for is one healing surge's worth of healing.
By level 11, the said Human Wizard Defiler, who is now a Master Defiler [PP], could 1/encounter empower two of his at-will attacks [one with 1d10 extra necrotic damage, another with roll-twice-and-keep-either-result]. He can then retrain the feat he got at level 1 -- the one that allowed the at-will/encounter power to be used with Arcane Defiling when you AP'ed, since the PP feature grants that already -- to Defiling Adept, which allows the reroll to crit on a 19-20 [18-20 at level 21]. The other feat at level 11 would be Victim's Defilement, which would add +4 damage to targets hit by Arcane Defiling [+6 at level 21].
[ Allies of Master Defiler could take Defiling Trooper, to lessen the hurt of Arcane Defiling. ]
Let's make a simple Human Templar Fire-themed Wizard Master Defiler:
1: Destructive Wizardry
2: Theft of Courage
4: Burn Everything
6: Superior Implement Training (Cinder Wand)
8: Dual Implement Spellcaster
10: Implement Expertise (Wand)
11: Victim's Defilement
It is pretty hard to argue that a 4e RAW defiler who takes the feats, PP, etc. isn't pretty darned powerful. On the other hand, without a significant investment in those feats (and taking the Master Defiler PP), defiling is pretty worthless. Should defilers be more powerful than other classes? Maybe, but probably not. But if there is no incentive for preservers to defile, the entire moral/RP aspect of defiling goes away, and right now defiling is only good for defilers. Ideally, defiling should be good (as in, a tempting option mechanically) for all arcane characters. Otherwise, it's just a new build for arcane characters. Having to choose whether to preserve or defile at level 1 and being stuck with it forever because it takes several feats and a PP to make defiling mechanically attractive is boring.
Chaosfang, I think you're missing a core part of what afficionados of old-school defiling want to see: the temptation of easy power that defiling represents.It is pretty hard to argue that a 4e RAW defiler who takes the feats, PP, etc. isn't pretty darned powerful. On the other hand, without a significant investment in those feats (and taking the Master Defiler PP), defiling is pretty worthless. Should defilers be more powerful than other classes? Maybe, but probably not. But if there is no incentive for preservers to defile, the entire moral/RP aspect of defiling goes away, and right now defiling is only good for defilers. Ideally, defiling should be good (as in, a tempting option mechanically) for all arcane characters. Otherwise, it's just a new build for arcane characters. Having to choose whether to preserve or defile at level 1 and being stuck with it forever because it takes several feats and a PP to make defiling mechanically attractive is boring.
Perhaps, although frankly giving arcane classes the same class feature as Avengers but better, with the only limitation -- daily attack powers only -- easily weakened by a single heroic tier feat still makes it all the more powerful to be a defiler if you ask me.
If you play with a DM who gives you four encounters a day, at level 1 that means you can spend 3 APs to use the reroll at-will for your encounter/at-will powers, and you can defile even if you can't use the at-will... but of course, I guess people rarely see, much less use, hazardous terrain, so I guess defiled terrain doesn't matter *shrug*
You can spend three defiler feats, be a Rimetongue Caller or a Blood Mage, and still be a powerful defiler with the same repercussions as any other defiling caster.
Again, I'd like to ask you guys, have you actually seen defiled terrain, as written in the Dark Sun Creature Catalog, the terrain you create when you choose to defile with any arcane power? Complaining about the arcane defiling at-will before seeing the defiling mechanics as a whole seems to be a bit premature.
- - - - -
Let's say the DM allows you to create defiled terrain whenever you choose to defile. From the book alone, you have four types of defiled terrain to choose from, and none of it is pretty.
If let's say there are plants nearby and you choose to defile, you could turn them into ash and then, with an easy Athletics check (disturbing the ash), blind each creature in a close blast 3 and create heavily obscured terrain. The rest is basically a choice between regain half hit points, weakened, and suffer -5 penalty to attack rolls with arcane/primal attacks & can't use Arcane Defiling while within the area.
Heck, if the DM wants to make things even deadlier, he could take the Defiled Plain hazard and alter it to make it something you could create yourself.
It seems you are valuing the cost of the arcane defiling power much less than I am.
My reasoning is thus: if one of my monsters walked up to my players and immediately bloodied him, they'd consider it a significant setback. Maybe even an existential threat, in a tough fight.
Arcane defiling (used on four allies, as normal) essentially does exactly that, except it's spread out and therefore even harder to heal (most healing in 4e isn't AoE).
If avengers cost their parties two healing surges every time they rerolled, they would not be a good class. Because defiling does require two healing surges from the party, I contest that it is mechanically bad in almost every situation.
Using it on an encounter or at-will is even worse: the potential benefit gained from turning a miss into a hit is reduced because you're using it on a weaker power, and the cost is the same.
It seems you are valuing the cost of the arcane defiling power much less than I am.
My reasoning is thus: if one of my monsters walked up to my players and immediately bloodied him, they'd consider it a significant setback. Maybe even an existential threat, in a tough fight.
Arcane defiling (used on four allies, as normal) essentially does exactly that, except it's spread out and therefore even harder to heal (most healing in 4e isn't AoE).
If avengers cost their parties two healing surges every time they rerolled, they would not be a good class. Because defiling does require two healing surges from the party, I contest that it is mechanically bad in almost every situation.Using it on an encounter or at-will is even worse: the potential benefit gained from turning a miss into a hit is reduced because you're using it on a weaker power, and the cost is the same.
Let's say the average HP of a level 1 players -- leveraging a 10 + CON (8) class with a 12 + CON (20) class -- is 25 HP. That means the average healing surge value is 6, and so the average damage to each party member is 3.
Once per day I deal 3 damage to four players, to be able to ensure a hit with a daily, or even an encounter/at-will with an AP. On a hit with a daily, I get to inflict -2 penalty to all defenses.
Let's say my level 1 daily is Sleep. I deal 3 damage to each of my allies, in exchange for an increased likelihood of a hit -- or in some cases a chance to miss an ally in the burst -- as well as to lower the target's defenses by 2 (save ends). I use Orb of Imposition to ensure that the save against the Slow fails, knocking him unconscious for one round. If the target fails his save against the lower defenses all the better, as it increases the chance for allies to land a coup de gras against the now-unconscious enemy/enemies.
If by level 11 the average HP is now 85, and everyone else took Defiler Trooper, they still take 10 damage each time I defile, but now they gain 5 tempHP to minigate the loss. In addition, I deal 10 damage to a nonminion opponent when I use Arcane Defiling if I took the Master Defiler PP, but that's optional, since I could always take Student of Caiphon or Blood Mage and do more damage anyway.
If by level 30 the average HP is 199, that means they take 24 damage each time I defile.
Point is, all the damage dealt by Arcane Defiling is less than what minions do on a hit, and if I am generous enough to my allies I do it only once per encounter. And in exchange I get the equivalent of +5 to hit or I get to reroll an unfavorable damage dice.
For the guy in the front, even 3 points of damage can hurt if he gets pummeled more than the caster, but he's built to take hits anyway -- if he had 35 maxHP and takes 4 damage, 4 damage now is still better than not being able to heal 8 damage later (doesn't he have Second Wind or something, to mitigate that tiny amount of damage he got from me?). For the guy in the back, as long as there aren't any surprises along the way -- like more than a few people slipping through the defender, or ambushers taking the sniper by surprise -- then even 5 damage to him is negligible, since he'd rarely be touched.
Let's say we have that ratio of two healing surges from the entire party per reroll. The party would have at least 6 surges per party member, so pooling it all up, that's 2/24 surges, or a little more than 8.3% of the party's available surges per day... and the number gets lower if we take defenders into consideration [that could put it at 2/30 surges/day, or 6.67%].
While in theory the at-will is bad, I doubt that in practice it'd be as bad as you say it is. Especially if we are talking about those powers that grant heavy control [Stun, Dominate, Unconscious, Helpless, etc.].
EDIT: If we're talking about striker dailies, giving the boss an extra round to deal much more than 4 points of damage to an ally -- because you missed with your daily -- is probably going to hurt much more than fueling that much needed hit with only a few points of HP from allies who probably wouldn't even mind taking the damage. After all, the best condition to inflict on the enemy is "dead".
And if people actually have to use second wind to mitigate the effects of your defiling, you *really* lost out. Spending 1 or even 2 of the party's standard actions in return for a reroll is an exceptionally bad deal in my book.
Will it get used sometimes? Sure. There are always situations in which you'd sell your own mother to hit your target with a big controllery spell. And since it will sometimes get used, it is a net positive for any arcane character to have the option, since options are always valuable. Nonetheless, some people (myself included) would like something a little more akin to "tempting" than "situationally acceptable"
Keep in mind that I'm not saying defilers are bad (though the 7 feats you assume above is a lot to make a build come together), only that PCs who only have access to the at-will have no particular incentive to use it.
Perhaps we can just agree to disagree on that point. Short-form, I am reading the power as "Gain +5 to hit. Your party loses 2 healing surges," and I think it's a pretty raw deal. If I try reading it different ways, like "Gaint +5 to hit. Your 1st-level party takes 12 damage." or "Gain +5 to hit. Your party loses 1/12th of its healing surges," it still seems bad.
And if people actually have to use second wind to mitigate the effects of your defiling, you *really* lost out. Spending 1 or even 2 of the party's standard actions in return for a reroll is an exceptionally bad deal in my book.
Will it get used sometimes? Sure. There are always situations in which you'd sell your own mother to hit your target with a big controllery spell. And since it will sometimes get used, it is a net positive for any arcane character to have the option, since options are always valuable. Nonetheless, some people (myself included) would like something a little more akin to "tempting" than "situationally acceptable"Keep in mind that I'm not saying defilers are bad (though the 7 feats you assume above is a lot to make a build come together), only that PCs who only have access to the at-will have no particular incentive to use it.
Your first level party loses 12/125 HP (9.6%).
Also, people don't have to use Second Wind to mitigate the effects of your defiling and if the defender just so happens to be a Dwarf, it's just a minor action for him and so he has no trouble using Second Wind if needed. Heck, they can even carry over the damage to the next encounter if that's all the damage they took. [ Happens at times even with my LFR group, as the Bard does an excellent job granting tempHP almost each and every round ]
I thought we were discussing defiling in general, which is why I found the at-will acceptable. The ability to defile allows you -- at the discretion of the DM -- to create defiling terrain, which is very thematically appropriate. If the DM allows your defiled terrain to be very harmful, then all the better to you.
[ After all, there isn't a lot out there that allows players to alter terrain outside of rituals. ]
By the way, how do you define "tempting"?
EDIT: I would definitely allow Arcane Defiling to be pumped up in terms of effects, if it is turned into an encounter or even a daily free action power, to limit the number of times you can make use of it. As I mentioned earlier, it's essentially how powers are structured in 4E.
As an example, take the aforementioned level 1 party. Defiling costs 12 damage to use and has a half chance of proccing the full effects of a daily power. That daily power had better deal at least 24 damage (or a controlling equivalent of 24 damage, such as a stun or daze that prevents 24 damage to the party) on a hit to be at parity, probably more becuase monster HP generally outnumbers player HP. This is, of course, assuming there is no miss: line, which makes defiling even worse. There will still be some powers that favor defiling (sleep comes to mind, but there are already so many ways to abuse sleep...), but the vast majority of powers would never incentivize a caster to defile.
At level 30, we're looking at a daily power doing 100 damage to make defiling worth it for a non-defiler. That's a high bar.
I don't necessarily think that arcane defiling's effect should be stronger - I think it could also work better if it did less, but cost much less.
With respect to defiled terrain, agreed. It is awesome to make defiled terrain. But I really doubt that the incentive for a preserver to defile is going to be "I really want to make some defiled terrain."
EDIT: After some more thought, I'm unsure this issue can be resolved even theoretically. The problem is that I want both of the following to be true:
(1) If one of my players is a preserver in a good party, he should feel tempted to defile because defiling offers him substantial mechanical benefits.
(2) If one of my players is a defiler in an evil or neutral party, he should have a definite "Look ma! I defile!" flavor without being terribly unbalanced compared to the other PCs.
I'm unsure if this is possible with only one ability, since one requires an Arcane Defiling power that is quite good unspecced, and the other requires an Arcane Defiling power that is good-but-not-great fully specced.
Perhaps for my own game, I will just implement different versions of the power for good vs. evil PCs, or come up with something that is really good the first few times you use it but comes with bad, stacking effects that ensure that anyone who defiles a lot falls back down to a normal PC's power level(which makes plenty of RP sense, since most defilers do it for the rush and the quick/cheap power, but quickly become dependent on defiling). That would make the defiler balanced against noahter party, and the preserver would have a big incentive to defile the first time but find himself on a slippery slope.
This might also be a good place to point out that in the context of an evil or neutral party, or any sort of league play where people can be whatever they want to be, I agree that the current ability is balanced or even quite good (defiler is a good build). I just think that an awful lot of people will end up playing games in which a good preserver is adventuring in a good party, and in that context defiling is a more interesting mechanic if it is more powerful.
Well at least you understand why it's so difficult to make Arcane Defiling itself "balanced", given that it does inherently grant advantages over non-arcane classes; in fact, were it not central to the entire Dark Sun history as to how the planet got to where it is today, they probably would have relegated it to purely DM territory, if not skipped it altogether.
If I were going to be DMing with a supposedly-dedicated preserver, I'd probably tack up a list of defiler-only feats in heroic tier, put in a few defilers to see how they screw up the party (with their amped up powers and defiled terrain), and from time to time remind him on each missed daily attack, "you could reroll that, you know...". Kinda like playing Devil's Advocate and all *evil grin*
By Paragon tier or Epic tier, if he chooses to be a Master Preserver or Avangion (if not both), then I'd stop bugging him ;)
[ I know it'd be annoying as hell, but hey the guy wanted to be a dedicated preserver, and someone has to function as his evil conscience Also, while I'd allow him to "fall"/slip up/defile from time to time, I'd probably houserule that the more often he defiles, the less likely he'd be able to access the Master Preserver PP and Avangion ED, unless he takes on a special quest that would be like what misguided preservers of old took whenever they defiled (meeting a particular group of druids and taking part of a ritual that would cleanse their conscience and soul)... because just as a Veiled Alliance member spamming Arcane Defiling and revealing himself to be an arcanist would be so thematically inappropriate that even the Dark Sun Campaign Setting suggests that the DM suggest the said player take a different theme altogether, a supposedly-dedicated preserver who constantly defiles then suddenly takes the Master Preserver PP or Avangion ED doesn't make sense... unless there is a story behind it, like a quest of sorts. ]