Favorite setting to bring back?
James Wyatt: Something new.
Mike Mearls: Something with pirates and high fantasy.
Rich Baker: Dark Sun, making it more like Barsoom.
Bruce Cordell: Dark Sun.
Chris Youngs: Dark Sun.
James Wyatt: Revising his answer, something Conan-esque with low magic.
You can read the full article here: http://www.critical-hits.com/2008/08/25/adventure-design-seminar-gencon-2008/
That's three of the five WotC Designers/Developers showing support for the setting. It is a very different setting than FR or Eberron (or the Core Setting) and ties in with any Psionic or Elemental Power Source books (PHB III, I'm looking at you).
Rich Baker's comment also reminds me of something I remember reading about the development of Dark Sun. Apparently, when they first started hashing out the setting it was going to be very different from core D&D, with completely different races and psionics completely replacing magic. Over time, they were guided back to making something a bit more familiar. Maybe they could revise Dark Sun and just go nuts with it? I mean, I like the setting, but if they didn't have to worry about any "baggage" from the old edition we would probably see something very unique.
See the mess they made of the Realms for 4th ed, uuuuugh!!
Only thing I'd do with Dark Sun, is completely ignore all the crap after the original boxed set. Though, "Dune Trader" and some other stuff was good.
Just get it backto the basic, PCs should *not* be fighitng SKs or becoming SKs, SKs in Dark Sun are like literal gods, and should squash PCs like grapes.
Mayeb at lvl 30, but not otherwise.
SKs are millenia old super badd asses and that's a GOOD thing!
Dark Sun is harsh, slavery, brutality, survival, "non-politically correct", dirty deeds done dirt cheap.
A "hero" is someone who can manage to be honourable, never mind "good".
Not that I like scuzzy nasty stuff, it's merely the setting is a struggle to survive, if you can manage to do something truly good, noble etc, wow, that's a great achievement, and thus, makes it all the better for your players when they cna do it
Oh, and half-giants have GOT to be "large", it's just ridiculous ot have them as "Medium" sized!
Stroll on 4th ed Dark Sun, says I !
But if they make a mess of it, we'll have them fed to the belgoi!! :evil:
The original boxed set is great, and I always felt that they messed with the setting in unfortunate ways as soon as they started killing Sorcerer-Kings. The thing of it is, I'm just not sure that WotC would be interested in publishing the original boxed set with a 4e rules update.
The designers would have 2 options, really. Publish a 4e Dark Sun, updating the rules as necessary, and maybe messing with the continuity to get the feel of the original. Or make a setting called Dark Sun, that feels like Dark Sun, but that completely re-imagines the setting. Personally, if they feel that they need to revisit an old setting, I'd prefer they take the latter approach.
Came across this interesting little tidbit from the Adventure Writing seminar at Gencon:
Favorite setting to bring back?
James Wyatt: Something new.
Mike Mearls: Something with pirates and high fantasy.
Rich Baker: Dark Sun, making it more like Barsoom.
Bruce Cordell: Dark Sun.
Chris Youngs: Dark Sun.
James Wyatt: Revising his answer, something Conan-esque with low magic.
You can read the full article here: http://www.critical-hits.com/2008/08/25/adventure-design-seminar-gencon-2008/
That's three of the five WotC Designers/Developers showing support for the setting. It is a very different setting than FR or Eberron (or the Core Setting) and ties in with any Psionic or Elemental Power Source books (PHB III, I'm looking at you).
Rich Baker's comment also reminds me of something I remember reading about the development of Dark Sun. Apparently, when they first started hashing out the setting it was going to be very different from core D&D, with completely different races and psionics completely replacing magic. Over time, they were guided back to making something a bit more familiar. Maybe they could revise Dark Sun and just go nuts with it? I mean, I like the setting, but if they didn't have to worry about any "baggage" from the old edition we would probably see something very unique.
I just want to point out that four of the five designers actually seem pro Dark Sun, not three... Something conan esque with low magic sounds very much like Dark Sun to me.
I'd also like to point out that even though some feel that they made a mess of Forgotten Realms, I don't. I much prefer the re-imagined setting to the old Forgotten Realms. The new Forgotten Realms is a product I am happy to have spent my money on, the old was not.
Also, I'd like to mention that I actually do not mind the concept of characters being able to fight, and perhaps kill, the sorcerer kings somewhere between level 21-30. These are EPIC levels. These are the levels where characters become DEMIGODS. The sorcerer kings themselves, certainly, are demigod like beings... but at level 21-30 so are players. Of course, I think the sorcerer kings should be very tough solo EPIC level creatures... I'm talking stuff that looks something like Orcus stated out... but I still VERY MUCH feel that the PC's should be able to potentially take on these entities, and win, once they achieve their EPIC tier (probably the higher epic levels as opposed to the lower epic levels, however).
"If it isn't broke, don't fix it!" ;)
See the mess they made of the Realms for 4th ed, uuuuugh!!
Meh. Just take the good mechanics and good story/campaign ideas from the campaign guide (if it comes out) and make it your own Dark Sun game.
Even the new 4e campaign guide will not deter/ruin my fan-interest for Forgotten Realms.
they can butcher the setting as much as they want, i'll just go use the source material for when i actually *liked* the setting, and use that.
Personally I loved dark sun for it's harsh enviornment, sparce cities ruled mainly by iron fisted sorcerer kings, psionic dominance, arcane hostility and defiling, elemental magic, post-apacalypic/enviornmental parable world.
The different takes on the races and classes were visionary at the time, but I'm not sure we absolutely need them now - though things like their version of bards could be reintroduced as a new class.
Loved the Dragon and the dragon-like sorcerer kings reaching for godhood, but if I never saw Rajat, the cereulean storm, life shaping and some of the odder stuf that came out of the expanded box stuff and the death of the dragon, it would be too soon.
Not to say some things weren't cool like the mind-lords of the last sea and the plain of obsidian, but it felt like it really drifted away from the original concepts.
Personally by focusing on a few large towns it felt like it was easier to get your head around and use DS. (Unlike the new FR book - which feels useless to me because it tries to give a little info on way to many things).
Personally I hated the spell vortexes and how sorcerer-kings granted divine spells and were arcane casters, but I suddenly realized a few days ago that the new power sources and roles fix that!
In the past, arcane really couldn't grant the same spells that divine could. Now that we're getting arcane leaders, divine can be more appropriately describe as magic ability granted directly from another - which feels reasonable for Sorcer-Kings to be able to do without being true gods.
Hopefully we'll know if it's coming back a year from now. (And hopefully the Eberron book is a heck of a lot better than the FR one).
Meh. Just take the good mechanics and good story/campaign ideas from the campaign guide (if it comes out) and make it your own Dark Sun game.
Even the new 4e campaign guide will not deter/ruin my fan-interest for Forgotten Realms.
I think the issue with the new FR book (100 year jump in time aside) is that it stays at too high a level and doesn't give the DM what they really need.
I sort of understanding not statting big NPCs so they can be used at any level, but I think it would have been more useful to DMs to stat them and say you can raise and lower they power level as you need.
Also, the single book just tries to cover too big an area. This is partially the fault of the "Grand History of the Realms", part the fault of planning on doing only one setting book, and par the fault of needing to update the whole place on the 100 year jump. The book is incredibly new FR DM unfriendly. If I didn't have other books and web references to fall back on, half of the region descriptions would make no sense.
WotC tried to make a starter book for FR using the 100 year jump, but they didn't explain everything for a new DM. The result is a book that doesn't give the old players what they want and doesn't give the new DMs what they need.
I think the issue with the new FR book (100 year jump in time aside) is that it stays at too high a level and doesn't give the DM what they really need.
I sort of understanding not statting big NPCs so they can be used at any level, but I think it would have been more useful to DMs to stat them and say you can raise and lower they power level as you need.
Also, the single book just tries to cover too big an area. This is partially the fault of the "Grand History of the Realms", part the fault of planning on doing only one setting book, and par the fault of needing to update the whole place on the 100 year jump. The book is incredibly new FR DM unfriendly. If I didn't have other books and web references to fall back on, half of the region descriptions would make no sense.
WotC tried to make a starter book for FR using the 100 year jump, but they didn't explain everything for a new DM. The result is a book that doesn't give the old players what they want and doesn't give the new DMs what they need.
So, they're missing a Realms history chapter and stuff.
My issue is that it mentioned "phlogiston" as if to bring back the old Spelljammer.
We need a new uniquely independent Spelljammer. I don't want to bridge FR with Eberron.
well, Spelljammer bridges any worlds you want it to, that's why it rocks ;)
*cough*....
Ranger REG,
well, Spelljammer bridges any worlds you want it to, that's why it rocks ;)
*cough*....
That part I didn't like. Only the flying ships in space I like.
I prefer the Shadow of the Spider Moon version of Spelljammer. It features what I like, flying ships, without the parts I don't like, crystal shell and phlogiston. It is its own unique setting with each planet tailored for nonhumans (e.g, a forested Kashykkk-like planet but for elves not wookiee).
Ships were horrible designs.
Improving the mechanics of Spelljammer is all that's needed: so it's easier to play.
Ugh Spider Moon sucked, sorry ;)
Ships were horrible designs.
The aesthetic of the ships, perhaps -- I don't judge a book by its cover and illustrations, otherwise I would have not bought the "girl's diary" cover look of the 3e Player's Handbook -- but not the entire campaign [mini-]setting, though I keep scratching my head as to why elves would adopt insect image to their ships.
Man-O-War is very beautiful, IMHO, hence whey I loved modelling it.
Well that's easy: they are living creatures ;)
Man-O-War is very beautiful, IMHO, hence whey I loved modelling it.
I hate bio-ships. Too YV for me.
I sure WotC knows the return of Dark Sun is demmanded...why not a new comic or videogames is published?
I love Brom´s art for Dark Sun. I miss that Hyrborean-punk look.
I sure WotC knows the return of Dark Sun is demmanded...why not a new comic or videogames is published?
On the comic-book industry, who would?
On the videogame industry, would Atari do it? (current licensee of D&D electronic publishing right)
Pennarin they advanced the imeline of the Forgotten Relams by over 100 years which killed off alot of NPCs. They also killed off several fan favourite gods, replaced the cosmology with the 4th ed one, downgraded alot of gods to exarchs, changed the physical map alot, brought back Netheril, removed a whole continent and replaced it and literally destroyed several kingdoms and replaced them with osme kinda of planar shift that literally dumped new countries over the top of old ones.
A Darksun equivilent would be the aftermath of Dregoths ascension for example it changes Athas planes and the elemental planes become the elemental chaos, the Astral plane becomes the astral sea, the black becomes the shadowfell, the abyss and nine hells are now athasian planes as well, several more Sorcerer Kings get killed including Oronis. Kreen Empire gets wiped out by a new landmass replacing it with Dragonborn on it, the deadlands get replaced with some new kingdoms, the coastline of the sea of Silt Changes, one of the city states ( Probably Urik or Balic) gets destroyed, and a vanished kingdom of gnomes (complete with flying cities) or something gets displaced in time from the Cleansing Wars and reappears in the Sea of Silt, and the Sea of Silt becomes water again.
Thats basically what they done to the 4th ed realms in a nutshell and they didn't even explain it that well. In addition theres no crunch in the book unlike the 3.5 books. No new races, classes, spells/powers/rituals, or prestige classes/paragon paths/epic destinies.
Most of the time, I ended up fleshing out the sites not covered - which is what DM's supposed to do - but I would rather design adventures than settings - it is the reason I purchase a pre-gen setting.
I hope they do not go overboard and reveal the entire world like other settinggs because that is why I found the setting intrigueing - this here be the dragon and this here be the edge of the known world - very medieval in concept.
Ranger REG good so see an old familiar poster. Anyway I've been reading through FRCG and I don't know if I want them to do a 4th ed Darksun anymore.
Considering that the new WotC administration is trying to apply the "point of light" theme to all settings for 4e, I'm not sure it can apply to Dark Sun.
Then again, I'm in the dark about what is considered "point of light." Is there a summary or criteria checklist as to what makes a "point of light" setting?
Considering that the new WotC administration is trying to apply the "point of light" theme to all settings for 4e, I'm not sure it can apply to Dark Sun.
Then again, I'm the dark about what is considered "point of light." Is there a summary or criteria checklist as to what makes a "point of light" setting?
Not sure I've kinda missed it and we're going back to a mish mash of 3.0/3.5 and Pathfinder RPG. Tried 4th ed, got the T-shirt.
basiclaly it means, mostplaces are dangerous, unexplored, mosnter ridden etc, with a ew towns etc between them....Dark Sun!! ;)
yes, Dark Sun computer game would rule. Loved the oriignal ones
No, erase from canon all the crap that came after the 1st boxed set, that stuff was stupid as hell! :/
perfect example of how pushing an RPG setting from a *novel* series plotline, wrecking it, killing half the Sorceror Kings etc is DUMB! ;)
Yeesh, aperfect setting, totally messed up with a ridiculous history tacked on.
I'll go with either "total mystery for DM's to decide for themselves" as the history, or, my own fave "It was the mind lfayers! they tried ot put out the Sun, increased psionics, screwe dup, damaged the Sun, wrecked connections to Astral Plane, hence no gods etc"
Works a lot better than bloody halfling spaceships etc :D
Least halflings in Spelljammer serve a purpose: portable rations!! Muhaha! :evil:
Just come up with new worlds instead of ruining old ones.
basiclaly it means, mostplaces are dangerous, unexplored, mosnter ridden etc, with a ew towns etc between them....
That is the definition of "points of light"?
No way!!!
The Dungeons & Dragons game assumes many things about its setting: The world is populated by a variety of intelligent races, strange monsters lurk on other planes, ancient empires have left ruins across the face of the world, and so on. But one of the new key conceits about the D&D world is simply this: Civilized folk live in small, isolated points of light scattered across a big, dark, dangerous world.
Most of the world is monster-haunted wilderness. The centers of civilization are few and far between, and the world isn’t carved up between nation-states that jealously enforce their borders. A few difficult and dangerous roads tenuously link neighboring cities together, but if you stray from them you quickly find yourself immersed in goblin-infested forests, haunted barrowfields, desolate hills and marshes, and monster-hunted badlands. Anything could be waiting down that old overgrown dwarf-built road: a den of ogre marauders, a forgotten tower where a lamia awaits careless travelers, a troll’s cave, a lonely human village under the sway of a demonic cult, or a black wood where shadows and ghosts thirst for the blood of the living.
Given the perilous nature of the world around the small islands of civilization, many adventures revolve around venturing into the wild lands. For example:
Roads are often closed by bandits, marauders such as goblins or gnolls, or hungry monsters such as griffons or dragons. The simple mission of driving off whomever or whatever is preying on unfortunate travelers is how many young heroes begin their careers.
Since towns and villages do not stay in close contact, it’s easy for all sorts of evils to befall a settlement without anyone noticing for a long time. A village might be terrorized by a pack of werewolves or enslaved by an evil wizard, and no one else would know until adventurers stumbled into the situation.
Many small settlements and strongholds are founded, flourish for a time, and then fall into darkness. The wild lands are filled with forgotten towers, abandoned towns, haunted castles, and ruined temples. Even people living only a few miles away from such places might know them only by rumor and legend.
The common folk of the world look upon the wild lands with dread. Few people are widely traveled—even the most ambitious merchant is careful to stick to better-known roads. The lands between towns or homesteads are wide and empty. It might be safe enough within a day’s ride of a city or an hour’s walk of a village, but go beyond that and you are taking your life into your hands. People are scared of what might be waiting in the old forest or beyond the barren hills at the far end of the valley, because whatever is out there is most likely hungry and hostile. Striking off into untraveled lands is something only heroes and adventurers do.
Another implication of this basic conceit of the world is that there is very little in the way of authority to deal with raiders and marauders, outbreaks of demon worship, rampaging monsters, deadly hauntings, or similar local problems. Settlements afflicted by troubles can only hope for a band of heroes to arrive and set things right. If there is a kingdom beyond the town’s walls, it’s still largely covered by unexplored forest and desolate hills where evil folk gather. The king’s soldiers might do a passable job of keeping the lands within a few miles of his castle free of monsters and bandits, but most of the realm’s outlying towns and villages are on their own.
In such a world, adventurers are aberrant. Commoners view them as brave at best, and insane at worst. But such a world is rife with the possibility for adventure, and no true hero will ever lack for a villain to vanquish or a quest to pursue.
Dark Sun is the very definition of a "Points of Light" setting :p
basiclaly it means, mostplaces are dangerous, unexplored, mosnter ridden etc, with a ew towns etc between them....Dark Sun!! ;)
yes, Dark Sun computer game would rule. Loved the oriignal ones
No, erase from canon all the crap that came after the 1st boxed set, that stuff was stupid as hell! :/
perfect example of how pushing an RPG setting from a *novel* series plotline, wrecking it, killing half the Sorceror Kings etc is DUMB! ;)
Yeesh, aperfect setting, totally messed up with a ridiculous history tacked on.
I'll go with either "total mystery for DM's to decide for themselves" as the history, or, my own fave "It was the mind lfayers! they tried ot put out the Sun, increased psionics, screwe dup, damaged the Sun, wrecked connections to Astral Plane, hence no gods etc"
Works a lot better than bloody halfling spaceships etc :D
Least halflings in Spelljammer serve a purpose: portable rations!! Muhaha! :evil:
Hence my FY1015 idea I've been designing.
They done the whole points of light thing to FR which did have established countries with borders and that. I've usually liked a mixture with a central civiised region (ie Roman Empire type area) with dangerous borderlands or pirates or something.
That and Darksun of course.
Forgotten Realms 4e is the new Dark Sun.
I liked the Realms.
Forgotten Realms 4e is the new Dark Sun.
NOOOOOOO!!!!!
Oh, wait. I didn't bought FR for 4e. Whew!
Forgotten Realms 4e is the new Dark Sun.
Errrg... that stings...
A Darksun equivilent would be the aftermath of Dregoths ascension for example it changes Athas planes and the elemental planes become the elemental chaos, the Astral plane becomes the astral sea, the black becomes the shadowfell, the abyss and nine hells are now athasian planes as well, several more Sorcerer Kings get killed including Oronis. Kreen Empire gets wiped out by a new landmass replacing it with Dragonborn on it, the deadlands get replaced with some new kingdoms, the coastline of the sea of Silt Changes, one of the city states ( Probably Urik or Balic) gets destroyed, and a vanished kingdom of gnomes (complete with flying cities) or something gets displaced in time from the Cleansing Wars and reappears in the Sea of Silt, and the Sea of Silt becomes water again.
Personally I disliked a lot of the revised set stuff that came about because of the death of the dragon, but to be fair, a lot of the 4E stuff is fairly easy to intergrate already. (Yes, it would require some changes)
Demons/Devils, the Feywild, and some erradicated races could be issues, but a lot already works.
The different racial abilities and classes could be challenging, though racial feats could bring back things like the elf run and dwarven focus.
Personally I disliked a lot of the revised set stuff that came about because of the death of the dragon, but to be fair, a lot of the 4E stuff is fairly easy to intergrate already. (Yes, it would require some changes)
Demons/Devils, the Feywild, and some erradicated races could be issues, but a lot already works.
The different racial abilities and classes could be challenging, though racial feats could bring back things like the elf run and dwarven focus.
Yeah I realisedthe planes could easily be converted to 4th ed but they may make radical changes to the maps and IMC Dray=Dragonborn. Not alot of point in having 2 types of Dragonmen in the game although the physical description of Dragonborn can be changed to match the Dray. maybe they're generation 3 complete with new shiny breath weapon.
Almost finished reading the FRCG. Overall a bit bleah although parts of it are a logical follow on from the old 3.5 material.
Meh. Just take the good mechanics and good story/campaign ideas from the campaign guide (if it comes out) and make it your own Dark Sun game.
Exaclty. Although if you don't like the story or mechanics at all, no need to buy the guide and just use the races and classes from the PHBs (I've started a thread for a minimalist conversion and plan to create one for people who want big, broad sweeping changes to include 4e stuff ;)). I certainly don't know if I'll be buying the 4e Dark Sun books.
IMO all we're waiting on after PHB2 is published, is for psionics to be published and then we've got enough to play 4e Dark Sun (so we don't have to homebrew all the psionic classes), as long as you're players don't head to the Kreen Empire. Once we get that people can play either original Dark Sun, Revised Boxset Dark Sun, (were there any changes in 3e Dark Sun?) or 4e Dark Sun, all of them using the 4e rules (if they wish).
Exaclty. Although if you don't like the story or mechanics at all, no need to buy the guide and just use the races and classes from the PHBs (I've started a thread for a minimalist conversion and plan to create one for people who want big, broad sweeping changes to include 4e stuff ;)). I certainly don't know if I'll be buying the 4e Dark Sun books.
IMO all we're waiting on after PHB2 is published, is for psionics to be published and then we've got enough to play 4e Dark Sun (so we don't have to homebrew all the psionic classes), as long as you're players don't head to the Kreen Empire. Once we get that people can play either original Dark Sun, Revised Boxset Dark Sun, (were there any changes in 3e Dark Sun?) or 4e Dark Sun, all of them using the 4e rules (if they wish).
I have a almost complete 10 level Psion beta to replace the Warlock for a 4th ed game. Hopefully have it ready by this weekend. It was more or less complete last weekend but a few things went wrong. 4th ed Psionics is still probably at least a year away.
i just saw the prism pentad on the publishing schedule so im predicting a rereleas for dark sun in 4e. sometime after the death of the dragon conforming to 4e cosmology and fitting with the whole points of light theme
Darksun was already points of light in a way or more points of relative safety might be a better way of putting it.
I like that concept of restricting new campaigns to two or three books depending on popularity. This may mean that we might see a good nuts & bolts setting that can be used to springboard a fun campaign in 4E.
i just saw the prism pentad on the publishing schedule so im predicting a rereleas for dark sun in 4e. sometime after the death of the dragon conforming to 4e cosmology and fitting with the whole points of light theme
It's true. They are rereleasing the Prism Pentad Book 1 this month!
See for yourselves:
http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/Products/default.aspx?doc=219807400
http://ww2.wizards.com/books/Wizards/default.aspx?
It´s also good to see that WotC have kept the first edition logo, with the dark red sun. Cool.
I would guess that they will start releasing some DS stuff by subscription next year with the release of the psionic power source.
If they do plan to do a dead tree copy of DS, I wouldn't expect much, or just a trickle, in subscription form, Dragon and Dungeon.
Wizards has stated that they are sticking firm with the one setting a year model, so the earliest possibility of a hard copy of DS would be 2010.
I would guess that they will start releasing some DS stuff by subscription next year with the release of the psionic power source.
If they do plan to do a dead tree copy of DS, I wouldn't expect much, or just a trickle, in subscription form, Dragon and Dungeon.
I'm expecting a players guide and campaign setting guide. I think DS may be first in line after Eberron due to the PP books getting reprinted, the Dragon article and most of the designers seem keen on DS as well.
I'm expecting a players guide and campaign setting guide. I think DS may be first in line after Eberron due to the PP books getting reprinted, the Dragon article and most of the designers seem keen on DS as well.
I doubt it. I see it as FR, EB, DL, DS. They can release the novels before the games.
I doubt it. I see it as FR, EB, DL, DS. They can release the novels before the games.
I really think Dark Sun will be next, sort of concurrently with Ravenloft (which i think will be released in a piecemeal manner via Dungeon and Dragon. This way it makes the digital subscription magazines much more attractive to gamers.. I think Dragonlance will follow Dark Sun (Planescape/Spelljammer will be more or less covered in the Manual of the Planes....)
A Darksu equivilent would be to kill off most of the NPCs, and actually physically destroy some of the lands and have some new metaplot. I wasn't opposed to some sort of reboot for any campaign world but the execution was really poor. If for example they wanted to change the planes for Athas it would make sense to me to do so after the results of Dregoths ascending which turned off cleric spells for several days or whatever. Maybe that was the planes sorting themselves out.
They killed off one of the major FR gods via a lame assassination. Maybe Rajaat trips over and impales himself on a halfling in 4th ed. Wouldn't mind if they killed Rajaat off as long as it was a logical way to do it and was well done. Some things just feel forced.
Presumably, the original dark sun started with a "mission statement" of some sort. They had a set of tolkein-esque fantasy ideas, and they filtered those ideas through the lens of that mission to create the setting.
4th edition starts with a different set of fantasy ideas. They should go back to the "mission statement" and apply it anew to 4th edition's ideas.
In other words, they shouldn't do a conversion or an update, but a remake.
Thats what they basically done with 4th ed realms. The metaplot was called the Spellplagued and they changed the FR cosmology to match 4th eds cosmology.
A Darksu equivilent would be to kill off most of the NPCs, and actually physically destroy some of the lands and have some new metaplot. I wasn't opposed to some sort of reboot for any campaign world but the execution was really poor. If for example they wanted to change the planes for Athas it would make sense to me to do so after the results of Dregoths ascending which turned off cleric spells for several days or whatever. Maybe that was the planes sorting themselves out.
They killed off one of the major FR gods via a lame assassination. Maybe Rajaat trips over and impales himself on a halfling in 4th ed. Wouldn't mind if they killed Rajaat off as long as it was a logical way to do it and was well done. Some things just feel forced.
A reboot does not mean going 100 years into the future and then adding an event that mutates the world, without changing its past, to fit new mechanics. Don't get me wrong, I prefer 4e realms to 3e realms... but I understand why it ****** people off who liked the old realms.
What SrGrvsaLot is talking about is re-writing Dark Sun from scratch. He is saying, no going in the future. No "event" that transitions the old realms to the new. He is saying, wipe the slate clean, and then re-start from year 1. Its like putting out the first Dark Sun book again, but with all the 4e elements of the game included. He is saying, rewrite the setting, and don't bother trying to connect it to the old Dark Sun through anything more than similar concepts: a post apocalyptic world, destroyed by defiling magic, populated with small city states, and ruled over by dragon lords who hide in human form, masquerading as god emperors. Maybe keep some similar names as a homage to the old Dark Sun....
He is talking about literally retconning the old setting, totally, completely, from scratch. He is talking about starting over again. And I for one am totally ok with that, as long as they keep the old feel of Dark Sun. I don't need to see the exact same history as AD&D Dark Sun. I don't need to see the exact same races. I don't mind seeing some new 4e races in the setting. But what I REALLY want to see is a setting that captures the tone and feel of the original Dark Sun.
The Astral Sea could replace the astral plane
There's no Astral Plane in DS cosmology. The Astral Sea could replace and fit the role of the Grey, though.
A reboot does not mean going 100 years into the future and then adding an event that mutates the world, without changing its past, to fit new mechanics. Don't get me wrong, I prefer 4e realms to 3e realms... but I understand why it ****** people off who liked the old realms.
What SrGrvsaLot is talking about is re-writing Dark Sun from scratch. He is saying, no going in the future. No "event" that transitions the old realms to the new. He is saying, wipe the slate clean, and then re-start from year 1. Its like putting out the first Dark Sun book again, but with all the 4e elements of the game included. He is saying, rewrite the setting, and don't bother trying to connect it to the old Dark Sun through anything more than similar concepts: a post apocalyptic world, destroyed by defiling magic, populated with small city states, and ruled over by dragon lords who hide in human form, masquerading as god emperors. Maybe keep some similar names as a homage to the old Dark Sun....
He is talking about literally retconning the old setting, totally, completely, from scratch. He is talking about starting over again. And I for one am totally ok with that, as long as they keep the old feel of Dark Sun. I don't need to see the exact same history as AD&D Dark Sun. I don't need to see the exact same races. I don't mind seeing some new 4e races in the setting. But what I REALLY want to see is a setting that captures the tone and feel of the original Dark Sun.
Kind of like what hollywood has done with classic horror movies - Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Halloween, Prom Night etc etc.. retell the story. except i would hope it turns out good....
Remember the competition that eventually resulted in Eberron? Start by writing a quick prompt that outlines the setting style/feel/goals, then move to a 1 page expansion, then a 10 page detailed write-up and finally a 100 page bible. Anyone want to try that for a DS reboot?
I think the best way to go for a 4e DS would be a reboot. Trying to covert things results in a mangled mess that doesn't quite capture either the flavor or the rules of the original.
Remember the competition that eventually resulted in Eberron? Start by writing a quick prompt that outlines the setting style/feel/goals, then move to a 1 page expansion, then a 10 page detailed write-up and finally a 100 page bible. Anyone want to try that for a DS reboot?
Its almost what I done with my 16 page DS rewrite but I advanced the timeline 100 years. It was a reboot for my personal game. Either way WoTC do it it will annoy someone though. Going back to year one wouldn't be a 2 bad of an idea but I thinkyou would find most of the DS flavour being thrown out as the races would probably be standard PHB races and maybe classes.
I can't really see them rewriting Clerics for example to fit 4th ed Dark Sun. I would bet they would be 4th ed PHB clerics with divine feats representing the pacts of earth/air/fore water. Wouldn't concern me to much if they ditched Half Giants, Kreen, Gladiators and paraelemental clerics but it would annoy someone else I bet. The Dragon Kings would be alot better under 4th ed than 3.5 though as they would be levle 21-34 or so solos.
This IMO is dumb; you can craft 4e rules that will not make races and classes and spells and psionic powers have a different flavor than in 2e or 3.5e.
We don't need some kind of metagame change like that, for Dark Sun.
No gods beyond the SKs, one dragon, primitive weapons and armour, slavery, few (no?) demihumans, little water and no hope.
A small map of a few cities that hasn't changed in hundreds of years (and has always been that way as far as most people know).
Maybe a retelling would be better just to wipe any knowledge the players have, but I don't trust Wizards not to Disnify it...
EDIT: Would anyone care if psionics was left out? I can't see that it ever really added to the world...
EDIT: Would anyone care if psionics was left out? I can't see that it ever really added to the world...
And here I thought it was such a large part of the Dark Sun world, a core concept, if you will. It is one of the reasons I'm willing to wait on a 4E Dark Sun as I want to see how psionics are dealt with in the new system.
And here I thought it was such a large part of the Dark Sun world, a core concept, if you will. It is one of the reasons I'm willing to wait on a 4E Dark Sun as I want to see how psionics are dealt with in the new system.
Definitely, Psionics being such a big part of the world is a little of what made Dark Sun so awesome, and unique.. most of the other settings have psionics as a bit of an afterthought.. Dark Sun really puts it out there, and because of that it think it is important to the setting.
There's no Astral Plane in DS cosmology. The Astral Sea could replace and fit the role of the Grey, though.
Wrong.
The Astral Plane exist in DS.
Wrong.
The Astral Plane exist in DS.
Indeed it does.. i remember the Shattered Lands or Wake of the Ravager video game has a potion where characters go to the Astral to fight Psulrons, and as far as i know those games are canon.
As for the Astral Plane I would love to convert that Adventure into 4E now that we already got the Githyanki in 4E I think I could start through there although there are no stats for the female leader of the attack...
I´ll get into it in a while maybe I will post a couple of Githyankis npc here lol
Wrong.
The Astral Plane exist in DS.
To clarify my opinion, if I interpreted the original material correctly, the Astral Plane doesn't directly touch Athas. It exists outside the Grey, but not within its confines, like the Ethereal Plane. The Grey has aspects of both and serves their functions , for the most part. In Defilers and Preservers of Athas, there is a chart with percentage chances for reaching other planes when travelling through the Grey. Page 11 of Defilers and Preservers of Athas has a very clear picture representing and explaining all of this.
Barriers exist between Athas and other places. In the case of other planes of existence, the Gray impedes travel. In the case of other places in the Prime Material Plane, the crystal sphere surrounding Athas is impenetrable.
Consequently, travel via spelljamming is impossible, and planar travel
is much more difficult. When it comes to magical means of planar travel,
the buffer formed by the Gray imposes some restrictions. Both wizard and
priest spells that provide access to or contact with other planes, from astral
spell to gate to planeshift, require an additional check to see if the energy of the spell cuts through the barrier formed by the Gray. A priest reaching out to
his patron element doesn’t need to make this check. Other characters modify
the check by adding their level to the number rolled. For example, if a 9th-level preserver casts contact other plane, he adds +9 to the check.
The same holds true for those trying to contact or reach Athas. The barrier
formed by the Gray impedes travel in both directions.
Outer/ Inner/
Astral Ethereal
Result Plane Plane
Lost 01-15 01-08
Failure 16-95 09-65
Success 96-100 66-100
A Lost result indicates that the caster has been lost in the Gray (if he was using a travel spell) or that the spell fails. A Failure result indicates that the spell is cast but doesn’t work. A Success result indicates that the spell works.
This is from page 10 of D&PoA. I hope this makes things a little more clear. And before someone from the Realms boards hops in and says "What about the Spellplague etc", the only effect that would have on Athas is the nature of the inner planes. The Grey is not subject to the powers of the gods, as indicated by the fact that they can get lost in it too, and have no way to circumvent it. And the Spellplague was a product of the collapse of the Weave, which does not exist on Athas (Hence Defiling and Preserving magic). (Or.....Darn, I have to start a new thread....)
There's been a lot of debate over the years about the nature of the Planes as related to Athas, but I believe that the system presented in D&PoA is the canonical one, the simplest explanation, and has the least irritating details to hammer out. If a DM doesn't want to run a campaign including elements outside of the DS setting, he dictates that the Grey is impenetrable. If a DM wants only limited access to a specific plane for his PCs, then he can drop in an artifact or something that only takes the PCs to their destination and back. The debate over the Astral and Ethereal has been going on for a LONG time, but D&PoA has been around since way back when, and holds the "official" answers.
Also what about the Tyrian King Tithian he could have a great comeback in the 4E it would really spice things up... I know he is a villain but lets face he is a cool antagonist... more like an EVIL anti hero on some occasions lol. Sucks that he killed his only friend, that was a bad move
BTW
Great image that one that explains the wray is it from some DS 2E source material or fan made in any its really good.
Addressing how the SKs got their power - It comes from the Metamorphosis spells they cast on themselves, and the prowess they have in Psionics and Defiling, especially combing the two. Their power sources are their own psionic minds and the life force they drain to power their spells. Only in the VERY disputed Lynn Abbey works is there an emphasis on a connection to the Grey, and the official word IIRC is that she didn't study the RPG material very well, if at all, before writing her books. Also, her fixation on grey-powered SKs seems centered almost totally on Hamanu.
Wizards won't do the same thing twice to two settings. They are, if nothing else, a creative and non-hacky bunch.
It won't be the same thing with a world reset. One pushed the setting a hundred years and changed it dramatically. I'm proposing they put it back to the way it was when the setting was first released, potentially with changes to explain new races they might want added in, along with other changes they might want to make.
Rich Baker: Dark Sun, making it more like Barsoom.
This.
I recently started reading the barsoom saga, and it is a incredible, violent, bizarre desert world, with psionics included.
Dark Sun would really benefit from such a change, specially with the reboot idea that has been going on here.
This.
I recently started reading the barsoom saga, and it is a incredible, violent, bizarre desert world, with psionics included.
Dark Sun would really benefit from such a change, specially with the reboot idea that has been going on here.
Yes, please. Since Dark Sun's original incarnation was very much in the Barsoom vein to begin with, this will really be more of a "going back to its roots" situation. I am totally down with a world where the heroes ain't necessarily the good guys, are trying to survive in a horribly alien world fraught with danger, and incredibly gritty.
A reboot is ok. A flash forward where we see that Free Tyr being where it is, relative to the kreen, really isn't all that good a situation for a city without a sorcerer-monarch. Where heroes have to do business with dirty merchant houses, and with nasty templars with enormous power backing them up, and so on, while still trying to do right by those they care about in a harsh, violent, cruel world. And often failing. Miserably. Or being sold into slavery and killed on the arena floor. Or proving to not be heroic at all, merely opportunistic. For some, altruism would be real, like Agis. For others, it would be a mere facade to garner allies as fodder or distraction. There are multitudes of layers possible.
A world where even dead sorcerer-kings can be dangerous (Andropinis), perhaps utterly controlling the Senate from the Black, dangerous in ways the other monarchs aren't, and far more difficult to kill or permanently deal with. Heck, he might even WANT to do the full 1,000 years in the Black to built up his power in protected solitude. I can easily see my namesake, Tectuktitlay likewise coming back, with Atzetuk being an extension of his will, a contingency plan of sorts the entire time, and a massive blood sacrifice bringing him back at full power after decades of rule by his puppet son. With all of that, you've now got Hamanu, Tec, Nibenay, Lalali-Puy, Andropinis and Daskinor, and hidden Oronis. Six full-blown Sorcerer-Monarchs, a free city, and one city controlled by an avangion who bides his time hidden from the world.
I don't think a total reboot back to FY0 is necessary to really get the point across, and make the world back into a really gritty place. Even another Dragon could have emerged beyond Dregoth. Hell, Dregoth may have learned that while true godhood is NOT achievable, bringing himself back to "life" from undeath WAS, and thus did he ascend to full dragonhood, destroying Raam utterly in the process. This would very much work for me, would fit the lore, and would pull the world back to something akin to a reboot.
Just remembering, the Grey is an addition of 2ªed Dark Sun, in the 1ªed the cosmology is the D&D basic (astral, etherial, shadow...).
Dark Sun was never published in 1st Edition: there was a revised version of the campaign setting, but both campaign settings were for 2nd Edition. Moreover, the initial release only ever mentioned the elemental planes... gate spells could only go there, and anything that contacted the outer planes contacted the elemental planes instead. You're right that the Gray wasn't mentioned... nothing but the elemental planes were.
Dark Sun was never published in 1st Edition: there was a revised version of the campaign setting, but both campaign settings were for 2nd Edition. Moreover, the initial release only ever mentioned the elemental planes... gate spells could only go there, and anything that contacted the outer planes contacted the elemental planes instead. You're right that the Gray wasn't mentioned... nothing but the elemental planes were.
Sorry for the confusion, I call the Dark Sun World Campaign Setting [1991] "1ªed of Dark Sun" and the Dark Sun Expanded and Revised Campaign Setting [1995] "2ªed".
The Dragon Kings Rulebook [1992] (p. 64 - 66) decribe the planes including the astral and the ethereal.
Sorry for the confusion, I call the Dark Sun World Campaign Setting [1991] "1ªed of Dark Sun" and the Dark Sun Expanded and Revised Campaign Setting [1995] "2ªed".
The Dragon Kings Rulebook [1992] (p. 64 - 66) decribe the planes including the astral and the ethereal.
After reading over the passage, I have to say it's pretty sparse. It talks about everything, but it has little information on the whole subject. In fact, this book was written back when the history of Athas was still a skosh muddy... there is no reference to Rajaat, or either of the Blue or Green Ages. A lot of what defines the setting wasn't there back then.
Then again, I am largely petitioning for a world reset... I wouldn't mind a few changes even to the history of Dark Sun in that reset. Moreover, I wouldn't even mind the loss of the Gray, Black or Hollow, so long as Dark Sun remains a godless world. I like the bleakness of a setting with nothing to place faith in... one of the reasons I was big on Midnight.
Scrap everything and start from scratch.
It's not like FR where WotC have been supporting it all a long and had to apply the history/mechanics fix to continue carrying on as it were.
With Dark Sun there's a large gap since anything overtly official. Many players today perhaps don't even know anything about it.
For those reasons a reboot would seem best to me.
Moreover, I wouldn't even mind the loss of the Gray, Black or Hollow, so long as Dark Sun remains a godless world.
if the Grey was lost, there would be nothing to protect Athas from the ravages of Fiendish hordes from the lower planes, or worse. The gods would still ignore Athas, because of the complete lack of conduits to the Outer Planes. They get no power from worshippers on Athas. Fiends would swarm the entire plane, and take everyone's souls, and nobody from the outer worlds would lift a finger to stop them. Even the Sorceror Kings wouldn't be able to stand up to Demogorgon or Asmodeus. The cosmology of Athas is what protects it from its lack of the gods' protection. Without the Grey, DS would be more like a soul farm for Balors! Especially now that the Abyss is located in the Elemental Chaos now, and the only conduits of spiritual energy running from Athas go! Theoretically, if a demon started a cult of himself on Athas, he could actually draw energy from them like a god does in other planes, due to the presence of the conduits and the lack of divine intervention. Said demon could possibly force enslaved elemental lords to grant spells to the demon's followers, as well, if he couldn't just usurp the ability to do so. Elementals don't stand a chance against the armies of the Abyss. The Grey prevents Hell on Athas in 2e and 3.5 cosmology, but it seems that by default, in 4e cosmology, the Demons of the Abyss have first cut on prime new soul hunting grounds.
if the Grey was lost, there would be nothing to protect Athas from the ravages of Fiendish hordes from the lower planes, or worse. The gods would still ignore Athas, because of the complete lack of conduits to the Outer Planes. They get no power from worshippers on Athas. Fiends would swarm the entire plane, and take everyone's souls, and nobody from the outer worlds would lift a finger to stop them. Even the Sorceror Kings wouldn't be able to stand up to Demogorgon or Asmodeus. The cosmology of Athas is what protects it from its lack of the gods' protection. Without the Grey, DS would be more like a soul farm for Balors! Especially now that the Abyss is located in the Elemental Chaos now, and the only conduits of spiritual energy running from Athas go! Theoretically, if a demon started a cult of himself on Athas, he could actually draw energy from them like a god does in other planes, due to the presence of the conduits and the lack of divine intervention. Said demon could possibly force enslaved elemental lords to grant spells to the demon's followers, as well, if he couldn't just usurp the ability to do so. Elementals don't stand a chance against the armies of the Abyss. The Grey prevents Hell on Athas in 2e and 3.5 cosmology, but it seems that by default, in 4e cosmology, the Demons of the Abyss have first cut on prime new soul hunting grounds.
Actually, I was under the impression that gods don't exist at all in Dark Sun. Minor outsiders might, but I doubt gods do. Both versions of the DS cosmology lacked gods, despite the fact that the gray didn't exist in the earlier version (as Drowmage brought up). I believe nonexistent (or at least fairly rare) outsiders are part and parcel to the setting.
Actually, I was under the impression that gods don't exist at all in Dark Sun. Minor outsiders might, but I doubt gods do. Both versions of the DS cosmology lacked gods, despite the fact that the gray didn't exist in the earlier version (as Drowmage brought up). I believe nonexistent (or at least fairly rare) outsiders are part and parcel to the setting.
Terminus Vortexa's explanation is the one created sounds to me like something creation for planescape.. at least to justify Dark Sun characters in planescape, and also to explain why the gods don't affect Dark Sun.
Dark Suns original idea was that it was an independent world with no gods, but the advent of planescape meant that had to be retconned. I am pretty sure that is what happened (i don;t have my books handy and my memory isn't all hat great sometimes)
Both versions of the DS cosmology lacked gods, despite the fact that the gray didn't exist in the earlier version (as Drowmage brought up).
The Gray is not the primary force behind the disinterest of the gods, the lack of belief conduits from Athas to the Outer Planes is what serves as that deterrent. . The gods cannot draw any power from worshippers on Athas, so they ignore the place completely. Check out Dregoth Ascending from Athas.org, this is explained very nicely in that adventure trilogy.(And was also originally an unpublished 2E DS supplement, so its credibility is flawless)The Grey just makes it harder to get to Athas in the first place. Even if a god managed to get through the grey, the journey would be pointless for them and they would probably"starve" from being cut off from the power they draw from their worshippers. Only powerful Elemental forces can draw power from worship in the realms of Athas.
While its function was amended to include impeding planar travel, he Gray was mentioned frequently in the novels, right from the beginning. Even if it wasn't present in the first rules publications for DS, it isn't any less significant.
It seems the idea of the Grey's function and purpose were developed more and more as the setting grew. The Grey started off being mentioned only as the Athasian netherworld. It was, indeed, not mentioned that the Grey was also the barrier preventing most planar travel to and from Athas, until after Planescape was developed. Indeed, until Planescape was released, DS was NEVER ONCE implied to be separate from the other planes, in fact, half of Dragon Kings seems to be spells that involve planar creatures, and many DS rulebooks mention extra-planar monsters used by wizards. The idea of a totally saperate Athas has no official merit, all rulebooks and novels that mention this circumstance affirm that Athas is in the same cosmos as all other D&D settings, it is just harder to reach. It looks like the reason the Grey was given the additional quality of "barrier" was to keep players in a DS game from trying to get to other worlds, stock up on metal,sick-powerful magic and such, and come back to conquer. The function could have been added as a plausible explanation for why Athasian magic functioned the way it did(being cut off from every other plane makes it impossible to tap their power(which 99% of spells in D&D do in some form or another), making an alternative energy source(like defiling) necessary. The Grey seems to have been used as one heck of a deus-ex-machina, and the functions assigned to it allowed DS to be sustained without a major retcon concerning the gods, the planes, and their relationship to Athas.
Conclusion - The Gray has always been there, serving the same functions, they just weren't fully explored until around 1994-95. Planescape didn't cause a DS retcon, just a patch. In truth, the lack of conduits is enough to keep the gods off Athas. The Grey does, however, keep away their missionaries(who may try to convert Athasians by offering transportation off-plane as a reward for their faith, to somewhere nicer like Faerun or Greyhawk), as well as keeping out the fiends who could just consume the souls of those around them with no reservations , if they could just set their feet on a world unprotected by the gods.
All of this seems to have been done in true Dark Sun fashion, with facts about the game being established long before their explanations are given. It was a wise move to release the rulebooks that way, too. i like being able to have a new player examine the original DS campaign setting only, and gradually introducing them to the later rulebooks as they become relevant. When you drop your new PCs off in Try for the first time, with new players, do you really want them knowing about the wars on the Inner Planes, the Rhulisti and ur Draxa? I don't! Players knowing too much ruins the enjoyment. When experienced D&D players who are new to Dark Sun die in the game, want them to be SURPRISED when they don't end up in some outer-planar final destination, but a grey murky void instead!
In the end, the Grey isn't the reason for no gods on Athas (And it affects gods no differently than it affects mortals), but it is the reason Athas is not overrun by the denizens of the Outer Planes in the absence of any gods to defend or lay claim to the souls of Athas.
The Gray is not the primary force behind the disinterest of the gods, the lack of belief conduits from Athas to the Outer Planes is what serves as that deterrent. . The gods cannot draw any power from worshippers on Athas, so they ignore the place completely. Check out Dregoth Ascending from Athas.org, this is explained very nicely in that adventure trilogy.(And was also originally an unpublished 2E DS supplement, so its credibility is flawless)The Grey just makes it harder to get to Athas in the first place. Even if a god managed to get through the grey, the journey would be pointless for them and they would probably"starve" from being cut off from the power they draw from their worshippers. Only powerful Elemental forces can draw power from worship in the realms of Athas.
While its function was amended to include impeding planar travel, he Gray was mentioned frequently in the novels, right from the beginning. Even if it wasn't present in the first rules publications for DS, it isn't any less significant.
It seems the idea of the Grey's function and purpose were developed more and more as the setting grew. The Grey started off being mentioned only as the Athasian netherworld. It was, indeed, not mentioned that the Grey was also the barrier preventing most planar travel to and from Athas, until after Planescape was developed. Indeed, until Planescape was released, DS was NEVER ONCE implied to be separate from the other planes, in fact, half of Dragon Kings seems to be spells that involve planar creatures, and many DS rulebooks mention extra-planar monsters used by wizards. The idea of a totally saperate Athas has no official merit, all rulebooks and novels that mention this circumstance affirm that Athas is in the same cosmos as all other D&D settings, it is just harder to reach. It looks like the reason the Grey was given the additional quality of "barrier" was to keep players in a DS game from trying to get to other worlds, stock up on metal,sick-powerful magic and such, and come back to conquer. The function could have been added as a plausible explanation for why Athasian magic functioned the way it did(being cut off from every other plane makes it impossible to tap their power(which 99% of spells in D&D do in some form or another), making an alternative energy source(like defiling) necessary. The Grey seems to have been used as one heck of a deus-ex-machina, and the functions assigned to it allowed DS to be sustained without a major retcon concerning the gods, the planes, and their relationship to Athas.
Conclusion - The Gray has always been there, serving the same functions, they just weren't fully explored until around 1994-95. Planescape didn't cause a DS retcon, just a patch. In truth, the lack of conduits is enough to keep the gods off Athas. The Grey does, however, keep away their missionaries(who may try to convert Athasians by offering transportation off-plane as a reward for their faith, to somewhere nicer like Faerun or Greyhawk), as well as keeping out the fiends who could just consume the souls of those around them with no reservations , if they could just set their feet on a world unprotected by the gods.
All of this seems to have been done in true Dark Sun fashion, with facts about the game being established long before their explanations are given. It was a wise move to release the rulebooks that way, too. i like being able to have a new player examine the original DS campaign setting only, and gradually introducing them to the later rulebooks as they become relevant. When you drop your new PCs off in Try for the first time, with new players, do you really want them knowing about the wars on the Inner Planes, the Rhulisti and ur Draxa? I don't! Players knowing too much ruins the enjoyment. When experienced D&D players who are new to Dark Sun die in the game, want them to be SURPRISED when they don't end up in some outer-planar final destination, but a grey murky void instead!
In the end, the Grey isn't the reason for no gods on Athas (And it affects gods no differently than it affects mortals), but it is the reason Athas is not overrun by the denizens of the Outer Planes in the absence of any gods to defend or lay claim to the souls of Athas.
Again, I don't think that's quite it. Dark Sun has a similar cosmology, but not quite identical to other settings. I say this for many factors, such as the fact that if the gray really acted to protect Athas from outsiders, it would also prevent elementals from getting there (the gray exists between Athas and the inner planes as well).
I see it as similar to Forgotten Realms back in those days. It had the Great Wheel cosmology, and yet there were differences. Some of the gods were the same, some of the gods were unique to Abeir-Toril, and some gods didn't exist at all. In that vein, replace all of that with "none of the gods exist in Athas at all" and you have a basis for how I think the setting is. The outer planes definitely still exist, but that doesn't mean that gods are there. Moreover, it seems that travel to the outer planes in Dark Sun is a one-way trip (when those traveling aren't stopped by the Gray, of course), as very few known outsiders exist (the biggest exception being that there is a pocket of gith out in the astral... I remember reading that somewhere).
Dregoth the Undead Dragon-King has been traveling the planes of existence for nearly 2,000 years, ever since his discovery of the planar gate, a Green Age artifact discovered in the caverns beneath Giustenal. During his travels Dregoth discovered the presence and worship of true gods, both previously unknown to the world of Athas. For nearly two eons Dregoth studied the nature of gods, their incredible power, and their zealous worshipers in hopes of attaining such divinity for himself. The Dread Lord of New Giustenal has traveled to countless worlds in a variety of disguises, researching hundreds of factions and cults, both good and evil, in order to learn of the link between the gods and their devotees. Following the events of the Prism Pentad, Dregoth returned to Athas and is putting his plans in motion, hoping to become Athas' first true god.
In his long study of the multiverse, Dregoth uncovered the reason why the gods of the planes have never turned their attention towards the world of Athas. The spiritual conduits that allow the gods of other worlds to draw strength from their worshipers do not exist on Athas. The spiritual conduits found on other worlds are replaced by elemental conduits on Athas, strongly
linking the world of Athas to the elemental Inner Planes. Dregoth has theorized that the presence of the Gray, the endless limbo where Athasians go when they die, is responsible for this state of affairs; because spiritual conduits cannot pierce the Gray and link Athas to the Outer Planes.
However, the elemental conduits easily pierce the Gray, granting the elemental clerics of Athas their power.
In the end the Dread Lord’s plan is a simple one: move the existing elemental conduits so they connect the Outer Planes to Athas. Once the conduits connect to the Outer Planes, Dregoth plans to travel there and receive the power bestowed upon him by his faithful. In addition, all Athasian divine spellcasters would have to turn to Dregoth for spells since Athas would no longer be connected to the elemental Inner Planes.
To achieve this end Dregoth has created an epic godhood spell that will not only move the conduits, but instantly elevate him to divinity upon its completion, a spell devised by the Dread Lord during his journey to the Outer Planes, and perfected upon his return to Athas.
-end quote
This explains exactly the state of things, in official perspective. Before anyone says"DA is Athas.org stuff, not original DS", Athas.org stuff is official, recognized by the brand owners. Also, Dregoth Ascending was a 2E supplement that never got published, because TSR killed off their DS product line. I have a copy of the original, and the explanation regarding the Grey and the Conduits is unchanged from the original.
All of this reinforces the position that Athas shares the same universe as the rest of D&D. Some misinterpretations of the source material, or maybe just plain not knowing the facts as they're spelled out in the supplements, have led to this debate over Athasian cosmology which has lasted over a decade. But it's right there, in print. Athas is in the Prime. All the other planes exist. The Grey just selectively cuts Athas off from any link to the Outer Planes and the Transitional Planes. Everything else exists, the Grey just keeps most planes from direct contact. To all who dispute it, read DA and look at this map, from Defilers and Preservers of Athas -
It's all right there, all official. Some people may want to have their Athas seperate from the rest of the D&D universe, which is just dandy. But to say that an independent Athas is what is given to us by the source material is just fallacious(wanted to use that word ever since Pennarin used it on me:D )
The Athasian elemental planes are different fom the great wheel elemental planes.
This is very true. Also...the Athasian Elemental Planes already look something like the Elemental Chaos, but with a neat twist: Instead of the elements freely mixing together at random, they are at WAR with one another. Fire encroaches on Earth, with areas of Magma left in the wake of those encroachments. Fire encroaches on Air with a massive Sun. Earth encroaches on Water with Silt between the two. Where Air fight with Water, Ice grows. And so on.
I'd like to see something slightly more free-form than the old elemental wheel, where Fire and Water go at it, and Air and Earth go at it, but different from the Elemental Chaos. First of all, I'd change Silt, and pull it away from Earth vs Water, and make it Earth vs Air, putting Mud back where it belongs. I'd put Rain (and the concept of steam, clouds, etc) as the conflict between Fire vs Water. With so little Water left, it's no wonder that there is little in the way of Ice (the war with Air), Rain (the war with Fire) and Mud (the war with Earth) left in the world. It's no wonder that the other regions of conflict, Silt (Air vs Earth) , Sun (Air vs Fire), and Magma (Earth vs Fire) are so out of control. Without Water, and the imbalance presented, those fronts keep growing without their "natural" checks. Water can't cool Magma back to Earth, it can't absorb Silt into Mud at the bottom of the ocean, and it can't absorb the energy of the Sun with Rain (and clouds). It all makes a little more sense, from a paranormal point of view, to me at least.
Elements could certainly have outposts elsewhere, making it somewhat resemble the Elemental Chaos, but you wouldn't really have the whole, "flying volcanic mountain with waterfalls running off it". Rather, you'd have a Fire outpost surrounded by Magma in the middle of Earth, Fire outposts in Air would be the stars, and so on. As with most thing Athasian, the Elements are at war with one another in the most brutal of ways. There would be no Abyss in the traditional sense, but rather the Abyss would be where all of the Elements meet together in a random mess of insanity. Conversely, The Abyss could be where no elements exist at all, or begin to fade to nothing, until merging with the Black.
Even in Planescape, the Inner Planes are not homogeneous, there are very different climes and locales within each.
Or, it could be that the areas of the inner planes "local" to Athas have been affected by the struggles there.
Earth, Air, Fire, and Watersays the following -
The inner planes that surround the world of Athas are
somewhat different than those found in other campaign
worlds. The elemental and paraelemental planes make up
the entire region, and quasielementals are but a small portion
of the larger bodies. The quasi-element of lightning, for
instance, is incorporated into the paraelemental of rain.
Whether the distinction is real or simply perceived that way
by the adventurers who travel there is unknown.
key word - Surround. Indicating corresponding points on the Prime and Inner planes. the inner planes seem different when arriving there from Athas, because local conditions and actions have altered them. I realize that the passage doesn't say "the regions of the inner planes surrounding Athas", but everything in DS literature relating to the topic IMO seems to indicate that this idea works best, with the least conflicts. It also dovetails with the map of the Planes from D&PoA.
Also, EAFaW was written a couple of years before DnPoA. In RPGs, I believe the consensus is that when newer material seems to contradict or correct older material, the newer material supercedes the old. the map in D&PoA is where I draw most of my opinion regarding these matters from.
Also, running with the idea that they are the same planes, just locally different, my explanation is thus - the Inner Planes surrounding Athas resemble Athas more than the rest of the Inner Planes resemble the Prime Material, the reason being the Elemental Conduits. They don't exist in other worlds. The Spiritual conduits on most worlds are what allows the connection between Outer Planes and the Prime. The outer planes are shaped by the beliefs of their denizens. If enough people on a mountain in the Beastlands turn lawful evil, that mountain transports itself and all on it to Baator. Towns like Plague-Mort and Xaos are examples of places just on the brink.
The Inner Planes of Athas seem to be responding the same way. As the Paraelements gain more followers and win more wars, their territories become larger. As the Elements, especially Water, lose battles, and have their element destroyed on Athas by defilers, the corresponding chunk of the Plane of Water local to Athas has suffered as well. The Inner Planes of Athas behave EXACTLY like the Outer Planes do in that regard.
So, it is my theory that the Inner Planes are the same ones as the Inner Planes of every other setting, they are just locally affected by the Elemental Conduits running from Athas.
This explains exactly the state of things, in official perspective. Before anyone says"DA is Athas.org stuff, not original DS", Athas.org stuff is official, recognized by the brand owners. Also, Dregoth Ascending was a 2E supplement that never got published, because TSR killed off their DS product line. I have a copy of the original, and the explanation regarding the Grey and the Conduits is unchanged from the original.
I can only disagree with you somewhat on this. Athas.org material isn't officially recognized... rather, Wizards considers them the supporters of an otherwise dead campaign. That said, as a fan I've never liked many of the alterations to the setting that have come about down the line. The Dregoth story arc has bothered me in many ways very similar to the elimination of Borys. The writers of Dark Sun had been changing constantly through it's history as a TSR product, and many of it's themes had either changed dramatically or gone by the wayside. Athas wasn't nearly as dangerous or doomed by the point they began the cessation of released product. The setting had been changing dramatically for years
More importantly, introducing gods in Dregoth Ascending does not necessarily mean that gods were part of the concept of the setting back when it was made. If that were the case, then every major plot twist or cataclysmic event isn't really since they may have been planned all along (doubtful... I'd be willing to bet everything that Ed Greenwood didn't even think of the spellplague being the effect of Mystra's death a decade ago).
i definitely agree that the nature of things on Athas kept getting better and better, as far as environmental and political aspects go. But I also have long held the opinion that that was the intention of the creators of DS. I mean, DS was originally not even going to be the horrific environment we all know and love! It is an absolute fact (revealed in the issue of Dragon Mag with the defiling rules in it) that the original concept for DS was the Blue Age!!! I'm serious. This may come as a shock to many, but to those who think Athas has gotten too soft, keep that in mind. Taking the long view, reading all the relevant interviews and such, I've come to the opinion that once the campaign was set in stone and released, one of the prevailing themes seems to be to restore Athas to something closer to the original concept. I mean, there are those who will always retain the opinion that Athas must always remain desolate, but most of the major events and developments of the setting seem geared towards eliminating the entities that desolated and continue to destroy Athas, or those who would invade it, and the "fallout" always seems to be that Athas gets just a tiny bit better.
No one here is saying that Athas must always remain desolate. We're saying that the default position of the setting as handed to the DM and players should be desolate, with the objective of restoring the planet's former glory being part of what the players should be doing. To me, the way that Athas was becoming made it feel more and more cheap in comparison, because they were taking away the objectives of the players. I was fine with the liberation of Tyr, because they made an adventure for it and allowed you to be a part of it. I didn't like the dragon dying, because that was off to the side.
It felt to me like as time went on they were just solving all the problems, and players who picked up the revised campaign setting were effectively picking up a copy of some game where somebody left a save that was a quarter of the way through it. It should be the players that solve the problems of Athas, not some externalized characters that were the focal points of the novels... wasn't that the very thing they were attempting to get rid of with the FR reset?
Hmmmmmmm. I guess I'd just assumed that other DMs did the same thing as me - adapt the events of the Prism Pentad into a campaign for the players.
I keep the PP as totally canon. It doesn't make the world that much of a better place, either. In some ways it is worse.
There are now random storms of hurricane force with massive amounts of lightning randomly sweeping everywhere, but passing by far too quickly to adequately provide rainfall for any region, adding yet another natural threat to daily life that few can stop or lessen, and which happen to be particularly harmful to desert dwellings made of clay or soft stone, as is often the case. It also makes the Silt Sea that much more inhospitable.
The Kreen Empire now has access to the Tyr Region, outnumber the other humaoids by many orders of magnitude, are vastly more organized, have developed a huge wall in the rift they can use as a base of operations with no contest, and have only a city with NO SORCERER-MONARCH lying between them and the rest of the region. Oops.
The Dragon of Tyr is dead, and in his place there is an undead dragon the likes of which has never been seen, who was in all likelihood more powerful than Borys to begin with until killed, and has (or had) access to the Planar Gate, a massively powerful resource. He also created an entire species of dragonborn-like beings to serve him, alongside a potentially ever-expanding undead army. That is far more dangerous than Ur-Draxa and the pittance of undead kaisharga servants Borys possessed.
Rajaat is now incompletely contained with untested magics controlled by his personal artifact of choice and a sorceress using powers linked to him. Again, oops.
One sorcerer-king can now rule from the (relative) safety of the Black, being banished for 1,000 years but not killed.
Yes, we've discovered that there is still a small sea left. Lizardmen are still alive. An avangion rules a hidden city-state. Another, the Wanderer himself, lives in a potential future, or possibly the past, biding his time. The Silt Sea has a massive hurricane linked to the plane of Water permanently within it rather than a volcanic hellhole, spewing the water-based powers of Rajaat. The Crimson Savannah is comparatively lush a region of the world. Multiple sorcerer-monarchs have been killed. And yet...with that little burst of hope...the levels of danger are hardly receding, the future of the world is still very much in question, and at the least a viable future is likely still a very long ways off indeed, manyfold generations away.
There is plenty of influence to be felt, influence adventurers can and will exert, if they are willing, and able to do so.
I keep the PP as totally canon. It doesn't make the world that much of a better place, either. In some ways it is worse.
I totally agree. In my short campaign, I ran few years ago I considered it canon but set start of adventures back 10 years. With this, I had sciope of futer, I knew what will (probably) happen. Now, with Paizo timeline push, I got another "gift of future". Personally, I liked Paizo version. What's more, revealing regions away from Tyr Region was another "gift" as I had scope, what lies away and evemtually threats or possible refuge for PC's. I always was fascinated with rest of Athas...
Another, the Wanderer himself, lives in a potential future, or possibly the past, biding his time.
Could you explain this statement to me? I'm more into RAvenloft knowledge, than Dark sun lore, but crave for any new information about Athas.
I totally agree. In my short campaign, I ran few years ago I considered it canon but set start of adventures back 10 years. With this, I had sciope of futer, I knew what will (probably) happen. Now, with Paizo timeline push, I got another "gift of future". Personally, I liked Paizo version. What's more, revealing regions away from Tyr Region was another "gift" as I had scope, what lies away and evemtually threats or possible refuge for PC's. I always was fascinated with rest of Athas...
Could you explain this statement to me? I'm more into RAvenloft knowledge, than Dark sun lore, but crave for any new information about Athas.
Ok, but spoiler alert!!! If you are going to read that trilogy, you might not want to read what's next.
Show
In the Tribe of One novel series, the main character, Sorak, is an elfling (halfling + elf) with multiple personalities. He spends a lot of time looking for someone called The Sage, who turns out to be The Wanderer. You also find out that The Sage is a developing avangion, and lives in the past, in a lush, green era (but to me seemed to hint that this might possibly be the future, not the past, considering how often The Sage lied his butt off to add layers of protection).
Alot of people ignore this avangion, not liking the implications of The Wanderer being both an elf and an avangion, and beginning a path towards immortality. *shrug* I have no problem with it, as it can easily be adjusted to any campaign.
Alot of people ignore this avangion, not liking the implications of The Wanderer being both an elf and an avangion, and beginning a path towards immortality. *shrug* I have no problem with it, as it can easily be adjusted to any campaign.
But... You can add this clarification about WAnderer with last pages from "Rise and Fall of the Dragon King", which implicates the same thing about future. How do you think?
Thank you very much. I have not read novels you speak of and don't know if I'll do, considering they are out of print and here, in Poland, las bookshop wiuth old TSR books went down a lot of time ago.
But... You can add this clarification about WAnderer with last pages from "Rise and Fall of the Dragon King", which implicates the same thing about future. How do you think?
Absolutely possible. It is also possible to link the Wanderer to the deep past, before the time of the great psionic society, and making HIM the avangion the kreen revere as The Great One, an implication I've not seen mentioned.
. I gues, I'll have to run at least an adventure there ... All WotC campaign settings released will use the World Axis cosmology.
I believe that there will be a new Dark Sun novel series and that it will form the basis for a 4th Edition Dark Sun campaign setting. Carefull readers should have picked up on little clues and nuances that set the stage for an epic shake up and story arc potential for it and dollars to doughnuts says some author is already hard at work on it.
With Psionics about to show up late for the party any minute now and Manual of the Planes here it's just a matter of time.
Here is a completely wild guess on my part but it could very well be possible either as the story arc or new setting giving what has been said so far by wizards...
"When someone dies in Dark Sun there soul cannot go to where ever it goes because of the Dark Sun planar lay out, it's basically walled off from the rest of the planes, the souls pile up lose their emotions and drives and just fade away, a few though with a strong will manage to hang on to their sense of self and struggle to hang on to who they were and a way to break out."
With Aegis dying, others getting uber power, the Dragon getting ganked and the melt down of the sorcerer kings not to mention the non human nations and Tith being a basic primordial water being now the time is just right.
"The barrier can already be breached from the astral side but it's very difficult and easier to get in then out."
The barrier will fall, magic will change, the environment and races will change and possibly new deites will emerge or make their presence known. Maybe the Primordials will be the movers and shakers in this setting seeing as how they are Element based, maybe Aegis will ascend to Godhood and be the one who breaks the barrier and makes contact bringing the Gods to Dark Sun, maybe you know who will find a way out into the abyss or shadowfell. One thing I'm pretty confident about is that Avangions and Powerfull elemental beings will be involved, the climate and landscape will vastly change, water will come back and the environment will recover at least to the point that if adventures don't do what they do it will slip back to they way it was. At least a few gods will emerge, magic will change and so will clerics. And when the dust settles there will only be a handfull of sorcerer kings left with the Plane open to travel both ways.
Just my two cents
Now, the most interesting thing to me is that all the 4th edition material about points of light and the evolution of the campaign world all goes way back to Dark Sun well before Eberron or the new FR or any of that... it was almost like they were testing out the epic destinies of characters and like they almost realized the shift they were looking for in the future (and then forgot all about it in 3rd edition for some reason)...
So, I think it makes perfect sense to try to update Dark Sun for 4th edition and although I agree that they got a bit carried away with all the new fluff that came after the initial boxed set and the pentad series, they didn't completely wreck the setting...
as long as they don't give everyone lush grassy meadows and smokey taverns filled with beer drinking (bald & hairless) dwarves and they keep some of that "post-apocalyptic" desert world theme I think it is a good viable setting...
should they advance the storyline by another 100 years and do the restructuring of the planes, pantheons, gods, elements, dragon, sorcerer kings, dragonborn and tieflings to match the rest of the worlds? eh.. kinda a cop out in my opinion... much more interesting if they keep some of the struggles of Athas unique to Athas... doesn't take much to keep clerics elemental, keep magic based on lifeforce, and avoid adding gnomes and dragonborn to the mix... thri-kreen were an interesting mix as were the muls and the race changes... be a shame to have those disappear in a puff of smoke or something...
my only other "major" concern is that the newest edition of D&D is very miniature based... releasing something like 4th Edition Dark Sun would mean that WotC would have to really put some effort into making appropriate miniatures for the basic classes, monsters to inhabit the deserts and dungeons, and re-do some of the undead to fit better with the themes and dress of the world...
and that is probably the biggest reason (IMHO) that wizard might avoid the dark sun... you just aren't going to have the resources for the mini game that you already have for all the other worlds they've established...
but I'd still like to see Athas resurface...
and in closing, I was quite impressed with all you previous poster's knowledge base about all the planes and history of Athas.. very cool... I knew or had read probably 75% of what was released, but you guys really know your stuff!!
laterz!
Josh
I'm gonna finish off my FY1015 DS setting with some 4th ed conversions for the races (excluding Half Giants and Kreen) and add Pyreen and Dragonborn to the setting.
my only other "major" concern is that the newest edition of D&D is very miniature based... releasing something like 4th Edition Dark Sun would mean that WotC would have to really put some effort into making appropriate miniatures for the basic classes, monsters to inhabit the deserts and dungeons, and re-do some of the undead to fit better with the themes and dress of the world...
and that is probably the biggest reason (IMHO) that wizard might avoid the dark sun... you just aren't going to have the resources for the mini game that you already have for all the other worlds they've established...
but I'd still like to see Athas resurface...
and in closing, I was quite impressed with all you previous poster's knowledge base about all the planes and history of Athas.. very cool... I knew or had read probably 75% of what was released, but you guys really know your stuff!!
laterz!
Josh
Just as a FYI - seems that they have a "fix" for that in mind
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndmin/9780786952779
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndlist&brand=dndmini&year=2009&tablesort=1
i definitely agree that the nature of things on Athas kept getting better and better, as far as environmental and political aspects go. But I also have long held the opinion that that was the intention of the creators of DS. I mean, DS was originally not even going to be the horrific environment we all know and love! It is an absolute fact (revealed in the issue of Dragon Mag with the defiling rules in it) that the original concept for DS was the Blue Age!!! I'm serious. This may come as a shock to many, but to those who think Athas has gotten too soft, keep that in mind. Taking the long view, reading all the relevant interviews and such, I've come to the opinion that once the campaign was set in stone and released, one of the prevailing themes seems to be to restore Athas to something closer to the original concept. I mean, there are those who will always retain the opinion that Athas must always remain desolate, but most of the major events and developments of the setting seem geared towards eliminating the entities that desolated and continue to destroy Athas, or those who would invade it, and the "fallout" always seems to be that Athas gets just a tiny bit better.
It seems to me that most of us have not only divergent ideas about how Athas has progressed, but fundamentally different approaches to crafting 'what makes Athas great'
A campaign world of the Blue age would be absolutely amazing. It'd also blow away a great deal of they mystique and mystery of the campaign world... like wondering if there's a God & somebody handing you his phone number.
As for Athas being Desolate, I'll refer to that old favorite analogy that if a space traveller were to land in a desert of a planet, he might decide that the entire world were a desert. Incredibly short-sighted imho, not the least because it takes a tremendous amount of water to facilitate even basic life in a relatively small area for even a relatively short time.
We have plenty of examples on our own world of even coastal regions that are completely arid - the climatic features that define the 'harsh' aspect of ecology don't need to exclude any terrain but wasteland - particularly if you allow that the works (and failures) of the Lifeshapers might contribute (which I like to think they do / have).
The other issue / motivator of DarkSun (I know I keep using the phrase, sorry) is evolution and change.
The nature of a world defined by disaster, as a 'dying world' (as we've come to see it) invariably routes it into a grave.
There are definitely some things I'd like to see given a good swift 'reboot' - the demise of so many big characters in such a short time being top of the list.
100 years is only slightly longer than a single Kings Age... really not skipping very far ahead. A general reboot would throw away far too much good work... skipping ahead a Kings Age seems to be a simple mechanism of letting the problematic mortals die off.
(Unless they pull the carbon-copy children stunt of DragonLance, that was pure class). The gazillion PrC gestalts are extremely creative but vast overkill for the purpose theyre trying to achieve.
A new novel series could be exactly what we need, the original novels were generally very controversial (though I'm pretty confident that the fan-base loved nearly all of them).
Written by different authors though could easily estrange us and fail to lure a new audience... either way I fear them watering it down.
The novels were chock full of ideas and information, i loved the creativity that bounded well past all the regular dnd worlds.
The last of the novels squarely set things up for a new phase... which can't possibly have a worse title than "age of heroes".
Given the dedication of the DS community over the years I'd seriously encourage Wizards to find a way of at least allowing us feedback on samplings of Beta material.... at the risk of what seem to be increasingly wild ideas from people hoping to perpetuate their particular ideal of the setting.
I jumped the timelime a 1000 years, brought back sum of the SK's like Andropinious and rewrote the fluff for a FY 1015 campaign. To many SK's and the Dragon dies to quick in Darksuns product life.
I did the opposite. I had Andropinis discover a way to control his Senate from the Black, possessing individual members as focal points for his will. He also learned how to once more give his templars access to their spells, almost immediately consolidating power and ousting the trade lords from their positions of power. Thus, there is now a Sorcerer-King who has no physical body with a threat of death hanging over it. In fact, Andropinis decided to attempt to EXTEND his "banishment" beyond 1,000 years, and is duly researching a way to travel back and forth between the Black once his time is up, and set up a sanctuary in the Black for physical comfort, using a combination of the Way and magic.
Tectuktitlay revealed himself in an enormous ritualistic blood sacrifice to have duped his templars and Atzetuk. Atzetuk lead and performed the ritual from Tec's archives, for it appeared to be a ritual designed to give him the full power of a Sorcerer-King. Oops. That didn't work out so well. The rivers of blood flowing down the Temple of Two Moons from the massive amount of sacrificed people converged upon a focal point designed for precisely this ritual. Atzetuk, atop the temple and leading the sacrifices, screamed in triumph as the blood flew upwards, washing over him. Those screams changed to ones of terror and pain as Tectuktitlay quite literally tore his way out of Atzetuk's body. Suffice it to say, Tectuktitlay's version of order was swiftly restored.
Tyr remains a free city. However, Tyr has discovered that this comes with an enormous price: There is no sorcerer-monarch to protect the people from the dangers of the world. Instead, Tyr embraced open preserving magics. Their templars are often trained in preserver magic or the Way, or, more rarely, in elemental or druid magics. There are, of course, purely martial templars, nowadays often being former gladiators from the countless slave tribes that make their way to Free Tyr once word spread that anyone can become a citizen of the city. The city rides a fine line, having the largest population in the region as the displaced and unwanted, or those thirsting for freedom with the means to travel, migrate to the city. All that is required is honest (or dishonest) work. Most such work involves farming, or the ever-dangerous iron mines. Finally, Free Tyr, a city without a sorcerer-monarch, stands between the Tyr Region and the machinations of the Kreen Empire. They essentially live in a war zone, with the trade houses, and the other city states, trading resources (albiet the latter unwillingly) to the battered, yet thriving city. They know that if Tyr falls, the entire region is in mortal danger.
There is more, of course, but the Tyr region on the whole, in my campaigns, is still a brutal place to live. The Age of Heroes proved to be pure hyperbole, and it is quite apparent that it is still quite firmly the Age of Sorcerer-Kings.
The only time I've really used the Kreen invaison subplot was heroes from Tyr encountering oddly coloured Kreen raiders from the south. A frinedly Druid created a scrying pool and they saw around 100 000 Kreen marching up the rift as the Ps had encountered scouts.
Dark Sun, in it's original state, was presented to me, a player, as I would imagine the world of Athas was presented to an average citizen of the Tablelands. There was common knowledge about the larger city-states, and some about the wildlands in between, but very little about the cosmos, or the Dragon Kings, or even the Dragon (Broys). It is with this limited knowledge that I am able to create so much for my own use. One of the reasons I loved DS so much when it was first released, was that it was so playable. Not a lot of rules, not a lot of "this is the way it is," because in a world like Athas, everything that one knows to be true today, may not be so tomorrow. Dark Sun is a world of uncertainty - that is what makes Athas so dangerous - nothing is predictable, nothing is for certain. Today you may have helped fend off a caravan from marauding elves, but tomorrow, you may be robbing the same people so that you can eat. A hero on Athas is short-lived.
**(As a side-note, not a single character of mine has ever exceeded level eight while playing in a DS campaign. When you become that powerful, you attract a lot of unwanted attention - usually from Templars and/or Dragon Kings. There is always someone willing and ready to take you down, or make an example of you. There is a very good reason why there are no epic-level characters roaming the Tablelands, and why I found the storyline in the PP series to be so unbelievable.) Anywhoo....
I loved reading the DS novels, but I never introduced those ideas into my own campaigns. It was discouraging to see that this story line is what became canon, with eveything extending into the future based upon these events.
Again, I return to the pure, basic 1ed boxed set imagery of Athas. A desert planet, brutal in every aspect, where survival must be earned daily, and with tomorrow being your reward.
I realize this post doesn't necessarily answer the thread question, but in my opinion, DS will survive no matter which edition is released. It all depends and your Athas, and your interpretation.
I think that for DS, this is an extremely limiting factor. If, for example, I were to play a Rouge, in 3.5ed, I would be able to customize my skills and feats, and overall feel of my character with a variety of "non-class" items. In 4ed, it seems that there is no room for this. Like I said before, I don't see myself using 4ed material, especially for DS (unless I can revise it to 3.5ed rules).
As a follow-up to my last posting, I had the opportunity to browse through the 4ed PH, and I have to say that I am less than impressed with the "new" design of characters. The classes seem very repressed to me - not much room for individualality. Pretty much a feeling of "I am a fighter and these are the things a fighter does," and there isn't much room for flavor in PCs.
I think that for DS, this is an extremely limiting factor. If, for example, I were to play a Rouge, in 3.5ed, I would be able to customize my skills and feats, and overall feel of my character with a variety of "non-class" items. In 4ed, it seems that there is no room for this. Like I said before, I don't see myself using 4ed material, especially for DS (unless I can revise it to 3.5ed rules).
This is the most ridiculous argument I have seen in a long time. First of all, Dark Sun was a 2e setting, not a 3e setting. As a second edition setting, in the old setting, one chose their class at level 1 and could never change it. Unlike 4e, they never had a choice of what powers they could gain. Two characters of the same race and class could be different in one way and one way only: stats. What is more, half the time that difference did not translate into in game mechanics. In 4e you get race, class, skills, feats, powers, paragon path, epic destiny, stats (which always have a mechanical effect every 2 points of difference), and the ability to choose to multiclass later in the game, to differentiate between two different characters. This is a LOT more differentiation then 2e ever offered. "Skills and feats" were never part of 2e, or the Dark Sun setting (which was a 2e setting). So, even if one were to accept the statment that 4e offers less character diversity then 3e, it offers so much more diversity then 2e that it makes NO logical sense that "4e lack of diversity would be an especially limiting factor to a Dark Sun game." And that is only if one accepts that statement. The truth is, even though 4e does not allow characters to multiclass nearly as freely as 3e (which in fact makes it MORE similar to 2e, and thus Dark Sun, and not less), within one class there are so many more options then 3e that I have to say that I think 4e has at least as much diversity as 3e, despite its more strict multiclassing rules, if not more.
You don't need to like 4e, but that is irrelevant to whether 4e would be a good system for a Dark Sun game. You were more in line when you stated this: DS will survive no matter which edition is released. It all depends and your Athas, and your interpretation.
By scifi you meant postapocalyptic, I assume?
Not exactly. It's sci-fi in the sense that during the Blue Age, the world was very advanced. Scarily so. Sure, it was all Magictech/advanced spell craft, etc but the thematic is the setting comes off as a broken world once based on a alien utopia.
That doesn't necessarily mean the worst for Dark Sun. We've yet to see the Eberron Campaign Setting book, but WotC has said even though it will use the new cosmology it'll still be an orrery-like cosmos. The planes of the dead and eternal night and such are aspects/realms of the Shadowfell for example...something to that effect
I am no fan of 4E but if WOTC can do a good Dark Sun 4E id deffinatly give 4E another chance on the strength of this setting that i love
(Dark Sun or Planescape are my 2 favourite settings!)
ATM i am using 3rd party Dark Sun material for 3.5 version and it would be hard to beat that in 4E i think due to how detailed and complex the Dark Sun world is for being so very different to generic fantasy.
I can't imagine WotC will add the feywild to the DS gamut of planes. That would be utter garbage.
Doesn't fit but welcome to 4th ed in that regard. The cosmology isn't to bad but not for DS.
I actually don't see why it couldn't work... all they need to do is implement something that "cuts off" Athas from the Feywild. The Feywild thus exists, but there is no contact between it and Athas. Of course, that means that Eladrin will probably not be allowed in Dark Sun, but...
That's something people will be able to use to fix what WotC intends to do (if they intend to do that), not some scheme WotC would use themselves.
Would WotC describe a plane, it's interactions with the world, etc, only to go say it's cut off?
Or worst...An Athasian Long-lost Plane Now Found! News At 11! See How The Grand Feymaster Of The Feywild Intends To Remedies Athas' Woes!
...start distributing the Kool-Aid.
That's something people will be able to use to fix what WotC intends to do (if they intend to do that), not some scheme WotC would use themselves.
Would WotC describe a plane, it's interactions with the world, etc, only to go say it's cut off?
Or worst...An Athasian Long-lost Plane Now Found! News At 11! See How The Grand Feymaster Of The Feywild Intends To Remedies Athas' Woes!
...start distributing the Kool-Aid.
I don't know. I always understood the original Dark Sun setting as using the core (great wheel) cosmology... it was just that most of it was metaphysically cut off from Dark Sun. IE: They still exist in the Dark Sun setting, it was still feasible for someone from Dark Sun to end up at Sigil and then to cross over in to the rest of the wheel, but it was damn hard. It was damn hard because something stopped a lot of the planehopping magic that worked on other prime planes from working on Athas. It was hard for the same reason that gods could not access Athas (leaving Athas god free). Since the original Dark Sun used the core cosmology, and just cut Athas off from the other planes, I don't see why the new Dark Sun can't do the same.
I don't know. I always understood the original Dark Sun setting as using the core (great wheel) cosmology... it was just that
Stop right there ;) You are partly right.
All settings in 2e were actual Prime Material worlds in the same Multiverse (a Planescape term). But pains were obviously taken to seperate Athas from the other worlds, and then other pains taken by other TSR employees to put Multiverse creatures/events/plots back into Athas. It was f**ked up.
I get out of it my own conclusion, which was that Athas was always intended to be seperate from other settings, and any incursions were add-ons for commercial reasons, cool factor, marketing pressures to plug-in other worlds, etc.
Enclosed in this package is my wallet. Take what you will. Dark Sun rocks! WoooooO!
you do realize that WOTC's attitude is openness and everything is available. Are you ready to have a Dark Sun world that has every race and every class available to it but just set in the Dark Sun universe?
Ah... I could see a Paladin lasting long in the elven markets of Urik...
Warlocks... would they follow the same preserver or defiler mechanic (assuming that would still exist... i consider that a integral part of the world)
Tiefling? I guess demons could find there way in somehow i spose if the cosmology changes to the generic template.
Dragonborn? ... A dragon in dark sun is an entirely different thing, its the epitome of defiler magic. Not sure where this race would come from :p (unless drakeborn?)
Eldarin... Not a very Dark Sunish race, and while it claims they live for 300 years... good luck!.
This would make me sad
(Ah... I could see a Paladin lasting long in the elven markets of Urik...
Paladins...no longer Lawful Good. Imagine a "Paladin" who follows the code of the element of Fire. Or who is beholden to Oronis.
Warlocks... would they follow the same preserver or defiler mechanic (assuming that would still exist... i consider that a integral part of the world)
Pacts with Spirits of the Land, Sorcerer-Monarchs (:eek
, Elemental Lords, Far Realms critters, perhaps the traditional devils and the like. I don't see a requirement for preserver/defiler magic, as this is more akin to an elemental cleric, or a templar, in that a patron is supplying the power, you needn't draw it from the life around you.Tiefling? I guess demons could find there way in somehow i spose if the cosmology changes to the generic template.
See: The Pristine Tower. No infernal-ness required, merely a race adapted to living near, say, volcanoes, or certain grasslands that periodically erupt in a massive conflagration. ;)
Dragonborn? ... A dragon in dark sun is an entirely different thing, its the epitome of defiler magic. Not sure where this race would come from :p (unless drakeborn?)
See: Dray. After X amount of years, separation from Dregoth, and the formation of their own society, perhaps in the ruins of Raam, I could see dragonborn in Athas being the literal creations of a dragon now on their own and evolving their own society.
Eldarin... Not a very Dark Sunish race, and while it claims they live for 300 years... good luck!.
Again, see: The Pristine Tower. In this case, I could see them being an extremely secretive race, similar to, or an offshoot of elves, adept at hiding, using their teleportation innate abilities to conduct hit-and-runs, and otherwise avoiding others. In cities and the like, perhaps they can get away with passing themselves off as elves.
There are plenty of ways to spin these races without boxing them into the Points of Light or traditional fantasy backgrounds. They can ALL be EASILY given a decidedly darker, more brutal feel without compromising their game mechanics.
Ah... I could see a Paladin lasting long in the elven markets of Urik...
Warlocks... would they follow the same preserver or defiler mechanic (assuming that would still exist... i consider that a integral part of the world)
Tiefling? I guess demons could find there way in somehow i spose if the cosmology changes to the generic template.
Dragonborn? ... A dragon in dark sun is an entirely different thing, its the epitome of defiler magic. Not sure where this race would come from :p (unless drakeborn?)
Eldarin... Not a very Dark Sunish race, and while it claims they live for 300 years... good luck!.
This would make me sad
Invest in tissue. Their current model is being all inclusive. And if they can do it to FR they can do it to Dark Sun
Invest in tissue. Their current model is being all inclusive. And if they can do it to FR they can do it to Dark Sun
Maybe i am just getting old and no longer like change so much, Dark Sun is my favourite world setting from any rpg (followed by Planescape/Sigil) so messing with this setting is a bit more worrying than the butchering of FR they did (never really was too keen on FR anyways)
Will have to just wait and see i guess, any new Dark Sun material will get a read from me however they play it, im sure there will be at least something i can use from it
I am looking forward to them making this (if they indeed are) an official setting again in 4E as it may open the doors for computer RPG again in a setting other than FR (Or Eberron which i really dont like)
They will make it. They're already putting out new DarkSun Novels.
Hmmm I have no doubt we may see this setting at some point. But I would like to know where you see NEW Darksun novels coming out?
I just checked the 2009 WOTC Product Release schedule and dont see anything listed for Darksun at all
Hmmm I have no doubt we may see this setting at some point. But I would like to know where you see NEW Darksun novels coming out?
I just checked the 2009 WOTC Product Release schedule and dont see anything listed for Darksun at all
WOTC is not releasing new novels. They are re-releasing the Prism Pentad books.
Amber Enchantress was the latest to come out in December:
http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Products/Default.aspx?doc=219827400
Looks like the last 2 novels will come out in March and May.
4th ed is good, for me anyway, especially as a DM. It's really fun.
Eladrin, dragonborn must not be in Dark Sun! Keep to the original races/perspective in 1st boxed set. But not the later ones, Pterrans for exmaple, except as add ons or such because it's just too grating versus the bruality of the xenophobia, ignorance, slaving etc. Pterran = a McChicken Sandwich (tm) in Tyr, lol.
Yeah, when they tried adding in to much "Other planar stuff" it got dumb, but not always. It was well handled in oen of the old DS PC games.
In one of my DS campaigns, the 2 PCs got chased of Athas, and had to escape through an old gate to the AByss. Note that there were some very few demons and old planar gates left in mention here and there in DS adventures/games. made sense to me.
Way I had it was some ancient cataclysm killed the gods/broke Athas off from Planar contact (it was the mind flayers triggering a stellar nova! gotta love the squid-heads! :devil
DS is best kept hard ot original idea because it's unique, fun, gritty and not another "Realmsian" setting.
Hope they retcon out the whole damned stupid "past history", ugh, it just sucked big cahoona burgers! :D
4th ed is good, for me anyway, especially as a DM. It's really fun.
Eladrin, dragonborn must not be in Dark Sun! Keep to the original races/perspective in 1st boxed set. But not the later ones, Pterrans for exmaple, except as add ons or such because it's just too grating versus the bruality of the xenophobia, ignorance, slaving etc. Pterran = a McChicken Sandwich (tm) in Tyr, lol.
Yeah, when they tried adding in to much "Other planar stuff" it got dumb, but not always. It was well handled in oen of the old DS PC games.
In one of my DS campaigns, the 2 PCs got chased of Athas, and had to escape through an old gate to the AByss. Note that there were some very few demons and old planar gates left in mention here and there in DS adventures/games. made sense to me.
Way I had it was some ancient cataclysm killed the gods/broke Athas off from Planar contact (it was the mind flayers triggering a stellar nova! gotta love the squid-heads! :devil
DS is best kept hard ot original idea because it's unique, fun, gritty and not another "Realmsian" setting.
Dont count on it. WOTC's policy with 4th edition is that everything is inclusive. If they can shove Warforged and Artificers down the Realms peoples throats, they will shove same said things down the Dark Sun fans throats as well. But as a Gm running a home campaign the GM can include or preclude anything they choose.
(I remember when I was 15 i got the very first Darksun computer game and got obsessed with it. Darksun is he reason I picked up the D&D3.5 books. The rule updates for 3.5 are great, sadly I never managed to find a group to play with. Now I made the transition to 4th edition and found some regular players. . . and can't wait to finaly play some Darksun.
I was reading the 4e mechanics idea threads and there are some good posts flying around.
I think making Defiling an arcane class feature makes it fantastic for role-playing. Characters roleplaying a Preserver know they have access to easy power but must make a conscious choice not to use it, bringing the player that much more in the mindset of the preservers.
Also, one nice thing about Defiling in general is that it gives a realy cool alternative to the undead style evil villains to loath. I think of Defilers as kind of like the Primal equivalent of Necromancers.. Does anyone agree/disagree?
I'm also not quite sure about the feywild. It can be done of course. Deserts can have a feywild equivalent with lush oases, with perhaps a bit more moisture in the air and the sun a bit more yellow. The feywild doesn't "have" to be jungle like and Fey as nomadic desert people.
WOTC is not releasing new novels. They are re-releasing the Prism Pentad books.
Amber Enchantress was the latest to come out in December:
http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Products/Default.aspx?doc=219827400
Looks like the last 2 novels will come out in March and May.
I noticed the books on the shelf at my local bookstore and took that as a sign that 4E Dark Sun is coming soon.
- Cosmology -
My take on how to merge Dark Sun with the 4e Cosmology requires the addition of 4e's god/primordial war, with a key change: The gods lose, thus why the planet is godless. The primordials didn't win an unconditional victory, as their plan to make the mortal world a chaotic, everchanging place was stymied, but they did manage to kill or imprison the deities.
Astral Sea - As the normal Astral Sea, except mostly empty. As the gods are dead/imprisoned/whatever, so their dominions are ruined and empty. Some remnants of their angelic forces remain in these dominions, guarding ancient treasures or even attempting to free imprisoned deities (if any remain alive). The races that live here, not tied to deities (like the githyanki), still ply the Astral Sea. Would-be Dragon Kings often seek out these places for objects of power to aid in their ascension. Devils might still exist, as betrayers of the gods during the war, with the dying gods cursing them for it (thus the change of form and all that).
Elemental Chaos - As per the normal Elemental Chaos, except treated more like the Astral Sea as the primordials are alive and kicking. The god/primordial war may have limited access from the Chaos into the mortal world, which is why the world is stable.
Feywild - As per the normal Feywild. As the mortal world is mostly desert, the Feywild would be a strangely beautiful and ultimately deadly reflection.
Shadowfell - As per the normal Shadowfell. The Athasian-taken Ravenloft domains can be redone into it as the Athasian version of domains of dread (see Manual of the Planes or Dragon Magazine for details).
- Classes -
This, obviously, would have some effect on the classes and power sources.
Arcane - Unchanged. Arcanists are still responsible for the destruction of the Blue Age and the change to present circumstances. Defiling and preserving would be represented with feats that modify the use of powers. Possible ideas include defiling causing a target to lose a healing surge, while preserving would cause you to spend a healing surge to achieve the same power boost.
Divine - The only providers of the divine power source are Dragon Kings (and their equivalents). This makes members of divine classes templars in the service of a particular Dragon King (or equivalent).
Martial - Unchanged.
Primal - Unchanged. As the fluff for this source involves the primal spirits of the mortal world, it fits very well with the spirit of the land concept from the original Dark Sun. These guys would hate defilers beyond belief.
Elemental - Unchanged, as far as I know. We have no details on this power source, but I expect that their power comes from the primordials.
- Races -
Dragonborn - Unchanged. As previously suggested, these are the dray. A group has recently thrown off the yoke of slavery and conquered a city for their own purposes, thus making PCs possible.
Dwarf - Unchanged. Additional racial feats would be introduced for the concept of their Focus (probably have it require Ritual Caster and Enchant an Item ritual and increase the level of items created above your normal maximum). Thus, a dwarf selects "Head slot" as his focus, and he can create Head slot items at his level + 1 (instead of his level).
Eladrin - Unchanged. New history inclusions would reveal there was a champion assigned to wipe them out, and it was thought to be successful. However, they merely fled into the Feywild to escape extinction and have recently begun moving out into the world again. Their champion could either be long-dead or still alive and a major threat to them.
Elf - Unchanged. New racial feats would include Horizon Runner (allows them to use their Run speed [Speed + 2] for their overland travel speed).
Halfling - Unchanged. New racial feats could include Conspicuous Consumption (gives a new racial power to allow cannibalization of a fallen foe for a temporary bonus to attack/damage/whatever).
Half-Elf - Unchanged.
Half-Giant - Replace with the goliath.
Human - Unchanged.
Thri-Kreen - Would need a new write-up, if they were to be playable.
Tiefling - Unchanged.
you do realize that WOTC's attitude is openness and everything is available. Are you ready to have a Dark Sun world that has every race and every class available to it but just set in the Dark Sun universe?
This is how the new Eberron universe will be handled IMO. Of course the DM can do anything they want with the setting but I do not think WOTC will go back to the Comicbook Crossover madness that was 2E ;).
1. To those talking about Athas having no access to other places, this should make it clear it wasn;t: I played Shattered Lands, (first dark sun ssl game) and there are vrock, babaus, and one or two other tanar'is in the game to fight. There were elementals and psurlons.
2. I liked dark sun alot. I only played 2nd ed of it and thought it was great. (I had shattered lands but the actual book stuff) I have seriously upgrading the monsters in that game to fourth ed. Mountain stalkers? Thri/Tohr kreen anyone?
3. I didn't really like the 3rd ed changes into Dark Sun. Adding in paladins and elans. I wasn't thrilled with that at all.
4. I am very excited about a possible 4e Dark Sun. It should be close to what happened in 2nd ed with dragon-kings in control. What kind of points of light would that produce? If all the safe places are slave villages and the cities are run by sorceror-kings? It would make for an interesting twist.
5. I found the whole bit about metal being rare and very important/expsensive. Having ceramic instead of gold was neat too. That should be part of the setting.
6. Defiler magic is going to be a major part of 4e darksun. It was an important part of the back story and so it should play a critical part here.
Further notes to make: I really never cared for the realms anyway, not in 3/3.5. I was never excited with it and found problems/things i didn't like. I am not interested in 4e realms. I have not read the book except when i skimmed it once and was not impressed really. Atleast it didn't catch my attention. I wasn't really thrilled with one fr novel i read: first drizzt book-menzo something.
I consider Dark Sun to be my second favorite campaign setting. Dragonlance is my first. I have always enjoyed playing Shattered Lands and still do (or can; getting dosbox makes it playable on win xp).
I would like to see Dark Sun come back. I would like to see it done well and with respect towards what happened in the past with the setting. This might not have been done with fr-don't know, never cared enough to worry about it anyway.
Dark Sun's postapocalypic environment was really nice and should be part of it too. I liked how it incorporated psionics fully which made me never question why they were there.
I love Dark Sun and think it ought to be made so we can play in it again.