For example, imagine WotC goes with the new campaign standard and releases a Dark Sun Campaign Guide, followed by a Player's Guide. Would you prefer a rerelease of the information from the original Dark Sun box, but with all the rules updated to 4th? The Dark Sun timeline would be reset to that of the original box (just before the Prism Pentad begins), with the exact same races and classes included. Or would you prefer books with truly new material? Perhaps the timeline has advanced, like it did in the Realms, with a reset occurring to allow adapted versions of the new races and classes to have a firm place in the world.
For myself, I'd love for it to be as close to the original box as possible. Even though the regular races and classes from 2nd edition were mostly worked into the setting when it was originally released, they all needed totally new write-ups at the time. You'd probably need to do similarly new write-ups with a 4th edition rerelease, so you might as well preserve Dark Sun's unique flavor by making it stand out as different - you could easily do that by keeping tight with the source material.
Then again, maybe most people wouldn't want to pay to buy a new version of the old Dark Sun campaign box, just so they can get the updated crunch. What do you think?
what I don't want to see is stupid rules just becuse they use to be there...and restrictions just becuse there use to be restrictions....
In my perfect 4e Darksun all PHB1,2,and3 races and classes have a spot in Athas...so do othe campaign classes and races (ex: swordmage)...however just becuse a PC can be it doesn't mean it is common...
Then again, maybe most people wouldn't want to pay to buy a new version of the old Dark Sun campaign box, just so they can get the updated crunch. What do you think?
This is me. I don't play 4e, so any future release from WotC, while interesting, has no lasting appeal for me. I run a weekly DS game (using houseruled version of the Pathfinder rules but played in the style of the 2e original material) and am finding it a great fit for the setting. I've no desire for an update.
That said, if WotC were to release a DS4e, it would likely be the only 4e book(s) I'd buy. Hopefully there would be some cool ideas to steal and it would be just sweet if they could get Brom and Baxa back to do some new iconic DS artwork. Even though I wasn't a massive fan of the Paizo version of DS from a couple of years back, it was nevertheless stuffed full of all sorts of neat ideas (the take on the elan, for example), so DS4e might prove equally fertile ground.
I run a weekly DS game (using houseruled version of the Pathfinder rules but played in the style of the 2e original material) and am finding it a great fit for the setting.
Kam,
Do you have any literature for you DS Pathfinder house rules? If so, would you mind sending me whatever you have? I'd be curious to look it over for future use in my own home game.
In my opinion, Paizo's version would be a good start.
* All Prism Pentad heroes are dead. However, many stories about then are told among the people who revere then as legends... and these legends may inspire future heroes... the PCs.
* Just 7 cities in the Tyr Region: Tyr (SK Kalak), Urik (SK Hamanu), Gulg (SQ Lalali-Puy), Raam (SK Dregoth), Nibenay (SK Shadow King) and Draj (SK Azterzuk).
* Bring Kalak back as the SK of Tyr. There is no free city in the Tyr Region (at least in the beginning of the campaing). To bring Kalak back I have a suggestion: using the "plot inside plot logics", Kalak may have previously discovered VA plan to kill him using the heartwood spear, but allowed then to carry on their plan and used it to feign his death after the incidents of the Tyr Stadium. Since he advanced his Dragon metamorphosis it´s a very plausible idea that Kalak would fear that the other Sks would team against him. And remember: Kalak's body has never been found. So after feinging his death and staying hidden for a while, Kalak reappeared and regained control over Tyr after the events of the prism pentad.
* Bring the Dragon of Tyr back, as the guardian of Rajaat's Prision, and collector of anual slave levy from the SK's. He is mad and evil, but his madness and evilness has a justification: to keep the greater evil in prison. Off course PC don´t know this... and may never know.
* No Cerulean Storm rainning over Ur-Draxa and the ring of fire.
* Ditch the City-State of Eldarich and Daskisinor.
* Place the City-State of Kurn very far from the Tyr Region... maybe near the Last Sea or beyond the Kreen Empire.
* Better description of the Dead lands.
* Better description of the kreen empire, wich borders the Tyr Region.
* A New continent in the East. Description and plots. Maybe 2 new reigns (instead of city-states). One, at the south, with a sleepig sorcerer-queen, using the story of Kalid-ma described in Ravenloft. And other at the north, wich the SK disappeared and the weak rulers are under the control of the Yuan-ti, as puppets. In the abscence of the sleeping SQ, the Reign of the north would be trying to conquer the south to expand the influence of the Yuan-ti.
* The area that appeared in the 2nd boxed set at the north of the Tyr Region, with the bandit states and the Troll Grave chasm could be placed at the extreme south, beyond the dead lands.
* In brief, the Atlas of Tyr Region would be this: The Tyr Region, as the last baluart of civilization, pressed between the Kreen Empire in the West, The Dead Lands in the South, and The Silt Sea in the East.
And remember: Kalak's body has never been found.
Tithian encounters the soul of dead Kalak in the Grey on p. 50 of the Obsidian Oracle -
'Tithian's jaw dropped as he realized the identity of the last eddy. "King Kalak!" he gasped. "I didn't kill you!"
"Of course not. The honor belongs to that jackal, Agis, and his friends," hissed Kalak, coalescing into solid form. Although he had been well on his way to becoming a dragon when Tithian had last seen him, he now assumed the shape of a skinny old man with a bald, scaly pate and a face buried beneath wrinkles. "You merely betrayed me to them."-
There's a lot of context, but Kalak materializes out of the Grey like any other strong-willed ghost in the Grey. He's definitely dead, at least at that point.
But telll me, Terminus Vortexa, is there any chance of bringing Kalak back from the Grey?
Kam,
Do you have any literature for you DS Pathfinder house rules? If so, would you mind sending me whatever you have? I'd be curious to look it over for future use in my own home game.
Same here - I'm VERY interested in seeing any kind of Pathfinder RPG conversion for DS. I've tried 4e - not for me. I'm playing some Pathfinder campaigns right now and really enjoy it. I'm curious too on what you've done with psionics with this conversion?
Back on topic, I would love to see more DS material as far as fluff goes, but as I said already I have no interest in playing 4th edition. I would probably buy a 4th edition DS book though.
But telll me, Terminus Vortexa, is there any chance of bringing Kalak back from the Grey?
That depends on one's opinion of how things work on Athas. AFAIK, resurrection is possible (Ka'Cha, in TKoA). Other than the singular reference in TKOA, resurrection is largely untouched as a subject,in favor of undeath. Maybe only certain Elements grant the appropriate spells to their clerics. I'm pretty sure Paraelemental clerics would not bother with learning Resurrection magic, and no Elemental cleric would resurrect an SK. But if one can find a willing Cleric, Kalak could come back.
The craptastic metaplot that killed half the SKs and had the whole halfling cleansing war silliness can just get lost :p
Dark Sun = brutal, harsh, MYSTERIOUS, psionics, dirty deeds done dirt cheap (AC/DC plays in the Elven market! :D), absolute domination by the Sorceror Kings, survival is the main theme.
THAT is Dark Sun.
Same here - I'm VERY interested in seeing any kind of Pathfinder RPG conversion for DS. I've tried 4e - not for me. I'm playing some Pathfinder campaigns right now and really enjoy it. I'm curious too on what you've done with psionics with this conversion?
Back on topic, I would love to see more DS material as far as fluff goes, but as I said already I have no interest in playing 4th edition. I would probably buy a 4th edition DS book though.
Wotc Does not want to do Dark Sun, so why don't they license it off to a respectable company like Paizo? They could then use the Pathfinder rules for Dark Sun, and Athas would be brought to life again.
I don't know if Paizo is interested in the idea, but perhaps we should call on wotc to license out the Dark Sun setting.
Wotc Does not want to do Dark Sun, so why don't they license it off to a respectable company like Paizo? They could then use the Pathfinder rules for Dark Sun, and Athas would be brought to life again.
I don't know if Paizo is interested in the idea, but perhaps we should call on wotc to license out the Dark Sun setting.
Why would WotC give a company that is compeating with them access to there IP???
Wotc Does not want to do Dark Sun, so why don't they license it off to a respectable company like Paizo? They could then use the Pathfinder rules for Dark Sun, and Athas would be brought to life again.
I don't know if Paizo is interested in the idea, but perhaps we should call on wotc to license out the Dark Sun setting.
Where do you get your misinformation from? WotC doesn't want to do Dark Sun? Four out of 5 of the key developers of 4e stated that Dark Sun was of their primary interest as a third setting for release for 4e. That doesn't mean that it will be the third setting released, but its certainly a good indication that it will eventually be released. WotC doesn't want to do Dark Sun? Is that why there is already a Dark Sun article published over DDi? And what exactly makes Paizo respectable? I love Dark Sun. I want to see a 4e Dark Sun. Paizo products are worthless to me. I am not saying they are bad products, but whatever Pathfinder might be, its not D&D... its a spin off product developed on the coat tails of an earlier edition of D&D, and an edition I am not overly fond of at that. Now, my personal opinion of Pathfinder is nothing but a personal opinion, just like your personal opinion of 4e. But, here is the really important question: Dark Sun is a very popular D&D setting. Why would the corporation that owns the IP of this very popular D&D setting EVER have ANY sort of incentive to license it off to some 3rd party publisher when the corporation can instead release this setting in a manner computable with their current product, thus making money not only off the release of the setting, but off the release of the setting in conjunction with the companies other 4e material?
The last thing I want to see is a 3rd party Dark Sun book, especially if that 3rd party Dark Sun book is not compatible with 4e D&D.
Ignore eberything after the 1st boxed set, apart form monsters, "Dune Trader", "ELves of Athas" and such.
The craptastic metaplot that killed half the SKs and had the whole halfling cleansing war crap can just get lost :p
Dark Sun = brutal, harsh, MYSTERIOUS, psionics, dirty deeds done dirt cheap (AC/DC plays in the Elven market! :D), absolute domination by the Sorceror Kings, survival is the main theme.
THAT is Dark Sun.
I agree with you that a reset back to the stage of the 1st boxed set would be a fine solution.
However, considering that WotC has already released re-released Troy Denning's Prism Pentad novels, seens that WotC won't reset the setting.
So I think that the best our community can hope for DS is a big advance in the timeline... and for sure that will happen.
Where do you get your misinformation from? WotC doesn't want to do Dark Sun? Four out of 5 of the key developers of 4e stated that Dark Sun was of their primary interest as a third setting for release for 4e. That doesn't mean that it will be the third setting released, but its certainly a good indication that it will eventually be released. WotC doesn't want to do Dark Sun? Is that why there is already a Dark Sun article published over DDi? And what exactly makes Paizo respectable? I love Dark Sun. I want to see a 4e Dark Sun. Paizo products are worthless to me. I am not saying they are bad products, but whatever Pathfinder might be, its not D&D... its a spin off product developed on the coat tails of an earlier edition of D&D, and an edition I am not overly fond of at that. Now, my personal opinion of Pathfinder is nothing but a personal opinion, just like your personal opinion of 4e. But, here is the really important question: Dark Sun is a very popular D&D setting. Why would the corporation that owns the IP of this very popular D&D setting EVER have ANY sort of incentive to license it off to some 3rd party publisher when the corporation can instead release this setting in a manner computable with their current product, thus making money not only off the release of the setting, but off the release of the setting in conjunction with the companies other 4e material?
The last thing I want to see is a 3rd party Dark Sun book, especially if that 3rd party Dark Sun book is not compatible with 4e D&D.
WOTC occasionally throws the Dark Sun fans a bone, but it doesn't mean they ever intend to republish the Dark Sun setting. There is nothing to suggest that Dark Sun will ever be a 4E setting.
As for licensing popular settings, they have done it before. They did it with Ravenloft, which is arguably a much more popular setting than Dark Sun. The reason they might do it is to make money from something that they probably will not use anyway. As for Paizo, they did a good job with Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and that makes them respectable in my book. They also listen to the fans. If you want to talk to Eric Mona, you can - he is accessible.
I have gone from the Classic D&D, then to second edition (bypassing 1st), then to 3rd edition. I have no intention of learning yet another rules set. 3.5 D&D was basically stable, and the Pathfinder 3.75 looks set to improve on that.
WOTC occasionally throws the Dark Sun fans a bone, but it doesn't mean they ever intend to republish the Dark Sun setting. There is nothing to suggest that Dark Sun will ever be a 4E setting.
Hmm, I see it differently. A Dragon article and the re-release of the the Prism Pentad books seems to me to be indicators that they are interested in doing Dark Sun for 4E. That on top of a mention in Manual of the Planes and designers stating that they like the campaign.
As for licensing popular settings, they have done it before. They did it with Ravenloft, which is arguably a much more popular setting than Dark Sun. The reason they might do it is to make money from something that they probably will not use anyway. As for Paizo, they did a good job with Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and that makes them respectable in my book. They also listen to the fans. If you want to talk to Eric Mona, you can - he is accessible.
The same company which, according to many fans, trashed the setting in their version when they had the Dragon and Dungeon magazines? When were they listening to the fans the last time they did it?
That aside, I liked their version. Updating it 300(?) years and mixing up the dynamic of the cities. I liked the variety in the cities' makeup. One was free, four were ruled by living sorcerer kings (one just returned), one ruled by an undead sorcerer king, and one final one ruled by a very new sorcerer king. I would like to see an updating like this, putting the old behind us and starting fresh with the new rule system. Treat the original information as history and present a campaign world which is not so story driven. Include races like the half-giant and thri-kreen, but also look into incorporating new ones like the dragonborn.
I would like this because it wouldn't invalidate many things that came before, but would allow a fresh start.
I agree with you that a reset back to the stage of the 1st boxed set would be a fine solution.
However, considering that WotC has already released re-released Troy Denning's Prism Pentad novels, seens that WotC won't reset the setting.
So I think that the best our community can hope for DS is a big advance in the timeline... and for sure that will happen.
I don't know that re-releasing the Prism Pentad novels necessarily precludes the possibility of a campaign reset right back to the original boxed set. After all, the first of the Prism Pentads were released when the original box was (although a lot had changed in Athas by the end of the novels and maybe they'd want to reflect that).
On the flip side, I do think it would seem kind of strange to release the Pentad and then do a complete Dark Sun reboot in which all of the information from the novels becomes irrelevant. Then again, stranger things have happened!
WOTC occasionally throws the Dark Sun fans a bone, but it doesn't mean they ever intend to republish the Dark Sun setting. There is nothing to suggest that Dark Sun will ever be a 4E setting.
Did you read my above post? After the release date for 4e Forgotten Realms and Eberron were released the 5 lead developers of 4e were asked what setting they would like to see released as a 4e setting for 2010. Four out of 5 said Dark Sun. That is a DIRECT indication that there in a WotC in releasing a 4e Dark Sun setting, and even an interest in making the 3rd 4e setting released by WotC Dark Sun. WotC has also re-released the Dark Sun novels, and published a Dark Sun DDi article. WotC has shown a decided interest in releasing a 4e Dark Sun setting. The only real question on the table is when: will it be 2010, 2011, 2012, etc... That it will be released is obvious, however. WotC has expressed too much interest in the setting recently. So again, where are you getting your misinformation from? What you are saying is untrue.
As for licensing popular settings, they have done it before. They did it with Ravenloft, which is arguably a much more popular setting than Dark Sun. The reason they might do it is to make money from something that they probably will not use anyway. As for Paizo, they did a good job with Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and that makes them respectable in my book. They also listen to the fans. If you want to talk to Eric Mona, you can - he is accessible.
How "good" of a job Paizo did with D&D magazines is sort of a debated topic, so I am going to leave it alone. And yes, WotC did license off Ravenloft to White Wolf during the 3e print run. But please note: 3e design philosophy was to pick one setting (later revised to two settings when 3.5 was released) and to release products only for that setting. They didn't pick Ravenloft. They picked Forgotten Realms. When 3.5 was released they added Eberron to the mix (and, you will note, they never re-released the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting as a 3.5 product!). At the time WotC knew they would not release Ravenloft as a 3e product, so they made money off it however else they could (licensing it off to White Wolf). Note, however, they still licensed it to a company that wanted to release the line for WotC's currently supported edition of D&D, not 2e. Playing White Wolf's Ravenloft still required that one buy 3e WotC published products (and thus make WotC money). 4e has a decidedly different design philosophy, however. The developers of 4e have stated that 4e WILL NOT release more than 3 books for any given setting. Those three books will be a player guide, a campaign guide, and a quest. That is it. Three books per setting. However, they have also stated that unlike their 3e philosophy, they will be releasing MANY settings. Indeed, they will be releasing 1 setting PER year. So, for as many years as 4e lasts, that's the number of settings that will be released. There is a good chance that WotC will re-release every 2e era D&D setting as a 4e D&D setting. And, with 4 out of 5 lead developers saying they would like to release Dark Sun ASAP, there is a good chance that Dark Sun will be one of the first to be released. So again, I ask you, why, under these conditions, would WotC ever sell off their intellectual property when they can make more money off it by releasing a players guide, campaign guide, and quest for Dark Sun themselves? If anything, I imagine that they would first release those three books, and then perhaps license off the product line to another company who would like to peruse the product as a 4e product... and even that is sort of questionable. I mean, if they do that, they can no longer release DDi articles, or print setting specific information in setting neutral D&D products (such as count Strahd's or Vecna's statistics in the new Open Grave book). All such information brings in customers, and makes WotC money. I see no reason for WotC to ever bind their own hands and feet when it comes to making themselves money. What is the incentive to allow Paizo to release the product as a Pathfinder product which directly competes with WotC's product line? I see none.
I have gone from the Classic D&D, then to second edition (bypassing 1st), then to 3rd edition. I have no intention of learning yet another rules set. 3.5 D&D was basically stable, and the Pathfinder 3.75 looks set to improve on that.
Which, to me, says that you and your opinions should be a non-factor to anyone making a decision in the interest of WotC. You are unwilling to switch to the new edition, you are not currently making WotC any money, and thus your opinion is null and void. The nature of life is, at least for now, corporate. D&D is a corporate product. So is Dark Sun. Both are owned by the same company. You have no interest in making that company any money. Instead, you would like a competitor company to release a Dark Sun product for a system you do want to play, a system that competes with WotCs primary product line. Honestly, it really seems like bad business sense to go ahead and sell that company additional intellectual property so that they can better compete with WotC. It really doesn't make any sense. I mean, WotC may have licensed off Ravenloft during the 3e years due to the different business philosophy at the time, but they still licensed it off to a company that wanted to release the setting for a currently supported edition of D&D. They didn't license off Ravenloft to someone that wanted to keep making 2e Ravenloft material. You know why? Because they wanted people who wanted to play White Wolfs Ravenloft to have to go and buy their D&D books. Your suggestion would make WotC (virtually) no money whatsoever...
P.S. Check the board traffic. The Dark Sun boards see a lot more traffic then the Ravenloft boards. That would suggest that Dark Sun, at least now, is the more popular setting (even though I personally like both equally).
Definitly keep Eldaarich.
Hmm, I see it differently. A Dragon article and the re-release of the the Prism Pentad books seems to me to be indicators that they are interested in doing Dark Sun for 4E. That on top of a mention in Manual of the Planes and designers stating that they like the campaign.
Somehow I've not noticed that there is new Dark Sun material.
Which issue of Dragon?
And which page in the Manual of the Planes?
Somehow I've not noticed that there is new Dark Sun material.
Which issue of Dragon?
And which page in the Manual of the Planes?
In the manual of the planes introduction, Athas is mentioned without any other comment, along with a bunch of other worlds/settings. There is no Dark Sun "Material" whatsoever, so it is no wonder you missed it. An indication that Dark Sun is coming back it is not.
@Cyber-Dave:
Which DDI article have you meant?
Also, while no real information is given on Athas in Manual of the Planes, it is mentioned in Manual of the Planes. However, it is just a mention. Still, even a mention is an indication that WotC is attached to the intellectual property for some potential future use. But I am going to leave someone else to find the page numbers.
And finally, the last indicator that WotC will eventually do something with Dark Sun, the major indicator, is that 4 of the 5 lead developers stated that they wanted to release Dark Sun ASAP (perhaps as a 2010 setting) during a live interview. The question asked was something along the lines "if it was up to you, what setting would you release for 2010?" Four out of 5 said Dark Sun, one said he would want to release a brand new setting. But, I don't know where a live transcript of that interview can be found. It has been a long time since that information has leaked onto the net. There used to be a thread in the 4e general forum with a link to a transcript of the conversation... but that was months ago. If anyone wants to provide the relevant link, if they happen to have it saved somewhere, it would be much appreciated by me.
Campaign Classics: Hazards of Dark Sun: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drcamp/20080630
That's Dragon #364.
I also think we don't need a reboot, but an advance in the timline.
In my opinion, Paizo's version would be a good start.
* All Prism Pentad heroes are dead. However, many stories about then are told among the people who revere then as legends... and these legends may inspire future heroes... the PCs.
* Just 7 cities in the Tyr Region: Tyr (SK Kalak), Urik (SK Hamanu), Gulg (SQ Lalali-Puy), Raam (SK Dregoth), Nibenay (SK Shadow King) and Draj (SK Azterzuk).
* Bring Kalak back as the SK of Tyr. There is no free city in the Tyr Region (at least in the beginning of the campaing). To bring Kalak back I have a suggestion: using the "plot inside plot logics", Kalak may have previously discovered VA plan to kill him using the heartwood spear, but allowed then to carry on their plan and used it to feign his death after the incidents of the Tyr Stadium. Since he advanced his Dragon metamorphosis it´s a very plausible idea that Kalak would fear that the other Sks would team against him. And remember: Kalak's body has never been found. So after feinging his death and staying hidden for a while, Kalak reappeared and regained control over Tyr after the events of the prism pentad.
* Bring the Dragon of Tyr back, as the guardian of Rajaat's Prision, and collector of anual slave levy from the SK's. He is mad and evil, but his madness and evilness has a justification: to keep the greater evil in prison. Off course PC don´t know this... and may never know.
* No Cerulean Storm rainning over Ur-Draxa and the ring of fire.
* Ditch the City-State of Eldarich and Daskisinor.
* Place the City-State of Kurn very far from the Tyr Region... maybe near the Last Sea or beyond the Kreen Empire.
* Better description of the Dead lands.
* Better description of the kreen empire, wich borders the Tyr Region.
* A New continent in the East. Description and plots. Maybe 2 new reigns (instead of city-states). One, at the south, with a sleepig sorcerer-queen, using the story of Kalid-ma described in Ravenloft. And other at the north, wich the SK disappeared and the weak rulers are under the control of the Yuan-ti, as puppets. In the abscence of the sleeping SQ, the Reign of the north would be trying to conquer the south to expand the influence of the Yuan-ti.
* The area that appeared in the 2nd boxed set at the north of the Tyr Region, with the bandit states and the Troll Grave chasm could be placed at the extreme south, beyond the dead lands.
* In brief, the Atlas of Tyr Region would be this: The Tyr Region, as the last baluart of civilization, pressed between the Kreen Empire in the West, The Dead Lands in the South, and The Silt Sea in the East.
I advanced the timeline for my old game by 1000 years, Added Waverly as a new city state.
I would love to see Dark Sun reborn, but not by WotC. Their catalog so far seems to be a collection of "booster pack" books. If they could produce a book with nothing but the fluff, I would buy it, but that's unlikely.
...posts like this really anger me. Nothing about D&D 4e is "booster pack" like, at least not any more so than the books of 3e or 2e. And D&D 4e has already released a book which is essentially "fluff only." That is exactly what the Campaign Guides are. All the crunch that used to be put into the Campaign Settings was taken out of the Campaign Guides and released as a Players Guide. That is part of why every setting is now two books... a fluff heavy/crunch light (there are a couple monster stats in the book) Campaign Guide, and a crunch heavy/fluff light (there are some entries on "what the player would know") Players Guide.
Ditch Eldaarich? One of the most interesting cities in all of D&D. Paranoid ruler whose moods psychicly affect his citizens, droping a pale of gloom over the populace. Repression worthy of 1984 and The Handmaiden's Tale.
Definitly keep Eldaarich.
To ditch of Eldaarich is my personal opinion. I have nothing against the city-state itself, but I´d rather keep the Tyr region with 7 cities only (by the way, I forgot to mention Balic in my last post... WotC, please, keep it, and Andropinis back too).
For the role of 1984 city-state I would rather use a revised version of Saragar and its "Mind Lords". I say revised because we must make it more dangerous and ditch some anoying points like the surfers and the last sea. Maybe place Kurn in a place like the last sea and Saragar in other distant place (without sea).
Also, I never understood how the Dragon of Tyr could fear Daskisinor... and simply spare this city from paying the anual slave levy... very strange. Just because Daskisinor made a fortification to battle the Dragon of Tyr? Does the Dragon of Tyr, a full 30 lvl Dragon, can fear a simple fortification? It doesn´t make sense.
Same for Kurn. Just because the Dragon of Tyr stopped visiting Eldarich it also avoided Kurn. Why? Even if the Dragon of Tyr could fear Daskisinor, why not collect the levy from Kurn? Daskisinor never leaves Eldarich... he would never fight the Dragon of Tyr outside his city-state, so why the Dragon of Tyr stopped asking the levy from Kurn?
So... better ditch Eldarich... use Saragar for the 1984 role... and place Kurn in a local far from the Tyr region... maybe beyond the Kreen Empire... in a place that would be called the last sea.
Also, this time around what each book covers is clear before you even open the book. At least 4e clearly separates the crunch from the fluff, meaning it can be expanded on easily: so hopefully a very detailed fluff-iffic Darksun campaign world. (we'd of course need the critters and important pc's statted out)
I what I don't want to see is stupid rules just becuse they use to be there...and restrictions just becuse there use to be restrictions....
In my perfect 4e Darksun all PHB1,2,and3 races and classes have a spot in Athas...so do othe campaign classes and races (ex: swordmage)...however just becuse a PC can be it doesn't mean it is common...
I feel the same way.
...posts like this really anger me. Nothing about D&D 4e is "booster pack" like, at least not any more so than the books of 3e or 2e. And D&D 4e has already released a book which is essentially "fluff only." That is exactly what the Campaign Guides are. All the crunch that used to be put into the Campaign Settings was taken out of the Campaign Guides and released as a Players Guide. That is part of why every setting is now two books... a fluff heavy/crunch light (there are a couple monster stats in the book) Campaign Guide, and a crunch heavy/fluff light (there are some entries on "what the player would know") Players Guide.
IMO the DS campaign book would be extremely fluff driven but alot of it would be exlpaining the 4E races and how they fit into 4E DS. The Players Guide should be the crunchy book that players might want for rules, races, and classes. People who play with other settings might want this also because of the new crunch.
The Booster Pack comment is silly because 3rd edition did much of the same thing with multiple books. Those new books were not really ever needed but added to the fun. I ran a 3.5 game for 2 years and only had the players use core and some FR supplement books and were had no problems. With most games that use Boosters you really need those packs to keep playing and competing in the game. In D&D there is no competing (unless you are like the KODT guys) there is just the need to have fun.
Using what happened at the end of Dregoth Acending, they will say that the changes to the planes that happened as Dregoth reached for godhood caused the planes to reallign. They have changed (and now match the 4e cosmology). These changes brought other things. Dragonborn as 3rd gen Dray. Tieflings as a mutated race. Warforged are Cleansing War remnants that have been discovered, etc. With Dregoth casting his godhood spell, it allows for a shoehorn to place everything they want in the setting. I am fine with almost all of that, as long as it doesn't mess with the flavor and theme. I think it will, but I know that it doesn't have to. Of course, in my games (if I ever get to them again) I will be doing whatever I want. (Tieflings might be Egendo's army or something... I like Egendo...)
It might not be bad at all. And it might be totally DS.
But I would not bet on it.
I hate to say this, but this is what I think will happen with 4e DS.
Using what happened at the end of Dregoth Acending, they will say that the changes to the planes that happened as Dregoth reached for godhood caused the planes to reallign. They have changed (and now match the 4e cosmology). These changes brought other things. Dragonborn as 3rd gen Dray. Tieflings as a mutated race. Warforged are Cleansing War remnants that have been discovered, etc. With Dregoth casting his godhood spell, it allows for a shoehorn to place everything they want in the setting. I am fine with almost all of that, as long as it doesn't mess with the flavor and theme. I think it will, but I know that it doesn't have to. Of course, in my games (if I ever get to them again) I will be doing whatever I want. (Tieflings might be Egendo's army or something... I like Egendo...)
It might not be bad at all. And it might be totally DS.
But I would not bet on it.
<>
I hate to say this, but this is what I think will happen with 4e DS.
Using what happened at the end of Dregoth Acending, they will say that the changes to the planes that happened as Dregoth reached for godhood caused the planes to reallign. They have changed (and now match the 4e cosmology). These changes brought other things. Dragonborn as 3rd gen Dray. Tieflings as a mutated race. Warforged are Cleansing War remnants that have been discovered, etc. With Dregoth casting his godhood spell, it allows for a shoehorn to place everything they want in the setting. I am fine with almost all of that, as long as it doesn't mess with the flavor and theme. I think it will, but I know that it doesn't have to. Of course, in my games (if I ever get to them again) I will be doing whatever I want. (Tieflings might be Egendo's army or something... I like Egendo...)
It might not be bad at all. And it might be totally DS.
But I would not bet on it.
You know, depending on how prominent they make those ideas, they don't all seem so bad to me. Warforged as remnants of the cleansing war sounds like a great way to introduce a warforged character into Dark Sun. Tieflings as a mutated race really fits with the post apocalyptic theme of Dark Sun. The real question to me would be how prominent they made these ideas. If that warforged idea was used to introduce the rare warforged into the setting, cool! It works. If they became a prominent part of the setting I would be really miffed.
The Tiefling idea, however, keeps growing on me. For some reason, the idea of tribes of feral Tieflings running around in the wastelands just seems sort of... cool.
Warforged as remnants of the cleansing war sounds like a great way to introduce a warforged character into Dark Sun.
While i can see a case for Tieflings (being mutations of the pristine tower rather than demonic offspring)
Warforged dont really make a lot of sense to me, it may be in part to my lack of knowledge with warforged. But arent they all metal?
Asside from the obvious issue about heat and metal, if a warforged enters the streets of Urik (or any civilised area) wont it just be torn to pieces and sold/melted down?
Hell even the templars themselves would do it, so its not like you can just call the authorities, the amount of iron in a metal warforged would be worth a kings treasury in Dark Sun. (people would actually be hired to hunt down any warforged too i expect)But.. If they could be made from Obsidian or other materials than metal i guess they could work. (Obsidian would be my pick)
While i can see a case for Tieflings (being mutations of the pristine tower rather than demonic offspring)
Warforged dont really make a lot of sense to me, it may be in part to my lack of knowledge with warforged. But arent they all metal?
Asside from the obvious issue about heat and metal, if a warforged enters the streets of Urik (or any civilised area) wont it just be torn to pieces and sold/melted down?
But.. If they could be made from Obsidian or other materials than metal i guess they could work. (Obsidian would be my pick)
Warforged are not all metal. They are actually a combination of wood, stone, and metal. I could see a warforged awakened in Dark Sun being forced to disattach as many metal components as it could, and replacing these components with stone components (such as obsidian) in order to protect itself from exactly the sort of treatment you describe. And, I am not saying that being a warforged re-awakened from the last war would not come with problems. I certainly don't think such a character should be the common, the norm, or even a "frequent rare occurrence" (ala the good drow of Forgotten Realms). If a DM were to allow a warforged into a Dark Sun game, I think it should be an incredibly rare, ALA PC only, occurrence (which comes with its own hurdles which the player will have to jump). That being said, if a DM is going to allow a PC to play a warforged, that particular suggestion is a good one. I wouldn't want to see a major section on "warforged in Dark Sun" in the campaign setting. But if they released a DDi article for "Warforged in Dark Sun" (similar to the article just released for Warforged in Forgotten Realms and Genasi in Eberron) then that particular idea would be a good one to include in such an article.
What I am basically saying: the Campaign Guide does not need information on including every race in D&D. The core PHB races is enough (and in the case of some of those, paragraphs for why a race should NOT be included instead of how a race COULD be included is probably more in order. Dark Sun doesn't have gnomes... end of story). But, if there are suggestions on how to include anything into Dark Sun over DDi, I really don't see a problem with that. I wouldn't $#!+ a brick and die if someone was to play a warforged in one of my Dark Sun games.
It would fell like a slap in the face for WotC to ignore the idiosyncracies that made DS what it was (there were no regular dragons, giants were their own unique kinds, there were no goblinoids, races were twisted, the world did not follow the regular models of afterlife or had the same complementary races as other settings, etc) and instead say that all is now open for grabs.
Dragonborn can be renamed drays for all I care (albeit observation of the 3e dray would probably indicate far too many differences between it and 4e's dragonborn for them to be a match), but eladrin do not have a place on Athas. It's not because they exist now that they need to be squeezed in. Same for tieflings.
Warforged are the worst, of course. They embody high-magic, high-level skillful crafting...all things we don't expect from DS' history, even the Time of Magic. Champions preferred human fodder, and used high-magic stuff only when necessary. That's what all the fluff (old and official, or newly created) says, and even people who helped expand DS in 3e - like Chris - showed restraint and did not go overboard a la Netheril.
/rent not over, it will never be over
I hope, really really hope, that I am wrong.
Like I said Penn. Not what I want, just what is most likely to happen.
I hope, really really hope, that I am wrong.
I hope your wrong too
I could see the troubles caused by the Psionatrix reawakening such constructs. I don't think the occasional warforged here and there, or even the occasional community of such, is that big a deal. It does kinda fit with the apocalyptic wasteland genre in general, having expressionless constructs who are fully sentient, yet quite alien even amidst a world of aliens, who must make their way in a world that fears them.
Tieflings are cake. Easy. They don't need to be connected to anything infernal whatsoever to work. They can simply be tied to Fire, explaining pretty much their entire suite of abilities. Bam.
Dragonborn as next-gen drays is completely workable, especially if the world gets the time-shuffle reboot. A civilization of dray apart from Dregoth, who have manifested more draconic aspects than previous generations have, and dragonborn make internal sense. Also, the name "dragonborn" has a whole new, and much more meaningful implication than it does in the Points of Light setting or the FR setting: They are literally born of the Dragon. They are the Dragon of Tyr's offspring (provided Dregoth has become such). Thus, they might be shunned. Or, better yet, feared and respected. They've left the care of their creator, turned their back on him, which garners respect. They bring with them the power of the creator, strong of limb, powerful of presence, with breath of fire (or ice or heated sand or whatever), which people fear. There is also that naaaaaagging thought in the back of one's head that perhaps, just perhaps, mercilessly killing a dragonborn might incur the wrath of the Dragon of Tyr.
Eladrin? Nope. At least, not the Feywild aspects. Now, a teleporting humanoid race quick of wit and reflexes is perfectly reasonable. The whole Feywild aspects, however, really don't fit at all.
Any of the actual Cleansed races (save the lizardfolk)? No way, no how. They used to exist, and now they are dead. They can exist in a Green Age campaign, and that should be suggested in the campaign material. I would have a whole section on the Blue Age and what races/creatures/environments lived then, and the same for the rest of the Ages.
Psionic subteranean highways as well, psionic levitating ships, and crystal artifacts. New-agy stuff.
A robot with arms, legs, a face, emotions, wants and free will...not what Dark Sun has had before. Even the almighty Mind Lords did not craft humanoid bodies for themselves but inhabited spheres from which they projected themselves.
The best Dark Sun ever did for synthetic men were golems. It'd be nice if it stayed that way.
Psionic constructs from the Green Age were distincly...old scif-fi in feel, nearly Star Trek-ian in design. Remember that ancient civilization that uploaded their minds into gray spheres, from one of the episodes? Athas has those too...called guardians.
Psionic subteranean highways as well, psionic levitating ships, and crystal artifacts. New-agy stuff.
A robot with arms, legs, a face, emotions, wants and free will...not what Dark Sun has had before. Even the almighty Mind Lords did not craft humanoid bodies for themselves but inhabited spheres from which they projected themselves.
The best Dark Sun ever did for synthetic men were golems. It'd be nice if it stayed that way.
So you really think a society that created all that stuff could not create a race of sentience warrior golems bred for war?
Dwarves? We now have radically different types of dwarves...the Tyr Region ones, the Mind Lords region ones, and the Hogalay ones. Yet it's one race...no sub-races, or Underdark Dwarves or all of that @#$%.
We could discover some of our old friends have "always been" eladrin, and we can be made to swallow that if done well. But it's ridiculous to imagine half a dozen races suddenly appearing in the Tyr region, from nowhere. Tieflings are a Tower mutation or the product of Daskinor's nefarious use of the Planar Gate; warforged newly uncovered Green Age living artifacts; eladrins are long lost brethren from a Green dimension (aka defiler's wet dream); dragonborns are yet another generation of dray...as if Dregoth had not said enough times the second generation was perfect.
And does the Black and the Gray suddenly fill with the stuff it was previously empty of? The Black is emppty of everything, litteraly. It's a numbing void of roiling smoky darkness that saps heat from everything. Nothing lives there that doesn't come from somewhere else in the first place (shadow giants). The Gray is filled with dead spirits, more dead spirits, and some uber dead spirits, yet no army of the dead amassing to conquer Athas, or the home of a god of the dead.
Will the planes be different too? The Feywild exist and connects all the spirits of the land together? Where does the Astral fit in?
Only good thing I can find is the Elemantal Chaos...as it can be modified easily to match Athasian cosmology. There is a pact of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water after all, and this pact cannot be better expressed than 4e's current intermingling of the various elements.
Psionic constructs from the Green Age were distincly...old scif-fi in feel, nearly Star Trek-ian in design. Remember that ancient civilization that uploaded their minds into gray spheres, from one of the episodes? Athas has those too...called guardians.
Yup. And warforged fit that genre to a tee, in my opinion. They certainly needn't look identical to the Eberronian warforged, and can easily have a sci-fi look. Sleeker, less business on the body, more elegant looking.
Psionic subteranean highways as well, psionic levitating ships, and crystal artifacts. New-agy stuff.
And a robot right out of Star Trek, or Metropolis, would fit perfectly. A tragic sort of character, with emotions, needs, desires, and yet without a means of communicating such without words, perhaps unable to fully appreciate human contact, yet desiring it nonetheless. Especially if that being houses the consciousness of a once organic lifeform, ala the psionic orbs.
A robot with arms, legs, a face, emotions, wants and free will...not what Dark Sun has had before. Even the almighty Mind Lords did not craft humanoid bodies for themselves but inhabited spheres from which they projected themselves.
The Mind Lords did not. That is not to say such constructs didn't exist, however. I would say there is a very distinct advantage to being in an orb, and being able to project a physical form over a huge area at will, change appearance at will, focus your Will wherever you manifest such a form, and so on. Now, you want to toss some of the old-fashioned feel to such a construct, perhaps they used to be a "labor class" of underappreciated, created sentients. Perhaps some rebelled, and their kind was recalled, so to speak, most destroyed, some deactivated. There are plenty of ways to go.
Heck, you want a true Star Trek feel, have some of the warforged assigned to carry around orbs with the consciousness of "very important people" in them, but with no real mind of their own. Flash forward millennia, after the Psionatrix fiasco. Suddenly, the consciousness locked away in that orb finds itself inside of what was previously nothing more than a tool it used to utilize for convenience.
The best Dark Sun ever did for synthetic men were golems. It'd be nice if it stayed that way.
Gotta agree to disagree. This sort of being can fit just fine in Dark Sun, with the right fluff and background. They needn't look anything like the common conception of warforged that are specifically and distinctly Eberron-centric in feel. That is likely the hurdle. Make these things obsidian, with crystal inlays written in ancient runes, with perhaps some additional materials to round out their overall look and construction, toss in some psionic ability and a tragic background, and they are suddenly quite Athasian.
So you really think a society that created all that stuff could not create a race of sentience warrior golems bred for war?
Could? Sure. Have the DS designers provided any inkling something like that was in store for future products? No, IMO. They tip-toed around ideas like that, choosing featurless inhuman spheres instead of humanoids.
Another parallel to psionic constructs were the organic constructs introduced in Lifeshapers. To see a people crafting an intelligent creature from the ground up as a weapon of war, you need to go as far back as the Blue Age (at least, according to what we see in all of DS' lore). That's in the adventure in the back of Lifeshapers...where the PCs unleash humanoid plant/horrible beasty creatures used by the bad guys at the time. Are the creatures a race? Can they be played? If left alone, do they build houses and wear clothes, seek fame and fortune, i.e become a PC race? No, they're weapons. They won't be left alone. They'll kill everyone and anything.
So you really think a society that created all that stuff could not create a race of sentience warrior golems bred for war?
I admit that i dont know a huge deal about the green age (not seen a great deal of info on this), but it has allways been depicted as mostly peacefull era where technological advancement and peace being its hallmarks. Capable of creating a sentient golem race purely for war? i expect so, but if it is a time of peace as it is implied in most sources i have read, what reason would they have to make an army of robot warriors? (Eberron had its reason, but not every setting really needs robot warriors)
I am seeing a whole lot of posts on attempts to justify the existance and inclusion of non-native races to Dark Sun, and i just cant see any reason 'why' they need to be included at all personally. I would prefer they expanded the playable races of Dark Sun with more 'native' species that already are a part of the lore yet perhaps not often played or considered playable in past editions.
I would rather see a Tarek than a Warforged, i would rather see Villichi than Tiefling, or a Belgoi rather than a Dragonborn (or indeed the Dray). Why go through all the effort of trying to make a square fit through a round hole, when there is already many squares around
We could discover some of our old friends have "always been" eladrin, and we can be made to swallow that if done well. But it's ridiculous to imagine half a dozen races suddenly appearing in the Tyr region, from nowhere. Tieflings are a Tower mutation or the product of Daskinor's nefarious use of the Planar Gate; warforged newly uncovered Green Age living artifacts; eladrins are long lost brethren from a Green dimension (aka defiler's wet dream); dragonborns are yet another generation of dray...as if Dregoth had not said enough times the second generation was perfect.
Why not? The one, single, consistent aspect of Dark Sun from beginning to end of its previous incarnations was endless change. Not improvement, not sudden explosions of hope and love and all that, merely change. Kalak dies, and the citizens of Tyr find out that...umm...maybe having a Sorcerer-King was kinda a good thing on Athas. The Dragon dies, and Rajaat comes, hellbent on completing utter genocide. After Rajaat, an undead Dragon, likely more powerful than Borys even before undeath, begins to make himself known. All sorts of threats are fought back, only to have the largest threat to the region since Rajaat himself (the Kreen Empire) at the Tyr Region's doorstep, with only a sorcerer-monarch-less city standing between it and the rest of the region.
In the revised edition of DS, we suddenly have aarakroka and pterrans and more trickling in from the wilderness to join civilization. We have vast unexplored areas opened up, including a seemingly endless obsidian wasteland of undead and endless, comparatively lush savannah below the cliffs.
Since day one, Athas has not been about stagnant unchanging convention. Rather, the entire story of Athas is one of severe change after severe change. Water world of technological wonder, to green era of mental mastery and links to the elemental planes bringing about extremely sophisticated civilization, to the rise of magic and the scouring of the world's resources destroying said civilization, to a genocidal world war, to a desperate age of city-states led by immortals fighting over the ever-diminishing resources, to a new era of change where the many previously seperated players on the world stage are forced to deal with one another, to who knows what next.
Oh, and who said Dregoth would create the new generation of dray? That is not a requirement for such a group to exist.
Could? Sure. Have the DS designers provided any inkling something like that was in store for future products? No, IMO. They tip-toed around ideas like that, choosing featurless inhuman spheres instead of humanoids.
Another parallel to psionic constructs were the organic constructs introduced in Lifeshapers. To see a people crafting an intelligent creature from the ground up as a weapon of war, you need to go as far back as the Blue Age (at least, according to what we see in all of DS' lore). That's in the adventure in the back of Lifeshapers...where the PCs unleash humanoid plant/horrible beasty creatures used by the bad guys at the time. Are the creatures a race? Can they be played? If left alone, do they build houses and wear clothes, seek fame and fortune, i.e become a PC race? No, they're weapons. They won't be left alone. They'll kill everyone and anything.
Why must me assume that is true? I am sure some weapons of war would have done just that. I see no reason why others would not have attain sentience.
Again, I don't want to see them become a major feature of Dark Sun. But, I would neither be opposed or upset by a "including non traditional races in Dark Sun DDi article." It it makes some player out there somewhere happy to play such a race in a Dark Sun game, and it doesn't disrupt some DM out there's game, I don't really see a problem.
Warforged are, basically, people. The DS designers could have had warforged in the room answering your call, warforged carrying your sedan chair, warforged pumping your water or guarding the frontier. But they didn`t have those. They chose, and here is a personal belief or at best a possible logical conclusion, to have many other alternatives beside psionic-endowed humanoid bodies to do these tasks.
That`s the feel I was refering to. That humanoids are specifically absent from the equation. This made the whole Psionic Age thingy...different from what it would have been had humanoids also been included.
But that`s about it. Like you said, I can agree to disagree.
EDIT: Well, I am of Aini`s opinion as well, so let`s form up into groups and face off against each other and fight! Fight! Fight! Blood bowl style! Mwahahahahah!!!!
/going to sleep now, 30 min to midnight
But that`s about it. Like you said, I can agree to disagree.
I didn't actually say that... but I can do it. ;)
So, I suppose we agree to disagree.
Could? Sure. Have the DS designers provided any inkling something like that was in store for future products? No, IMO. They tip-toed around ideas like that, choosing featurless inhuman spheres instead of humanoids.
Another parallel to psionic constructs were the organic constructs introduced in Lifeshapers. To see a people crafting an intelligent creature from the ground up as a weapon of war, you need to go as far back as the Blue Age (at least, according to what we see in all of DS' lore). That's in the adventure in the back of Lifeshapers...where the PCs unleash humanoid plant/horrible beasty creatures used by the bad guys at the time. Are the creatures a race? Can they be played? If left alone, do they build houses and wear clothes, seek fame and fortune, i.e become a PC race? No, they're weapons. They won't be left alone. They'll kill everyone and anything.
Huge amounts of the psionic might of the Green Age is lost. That has been codified in the canon. Psionics of the modern age are pathetic, psionic constructions a pittance of what once was. Just as lifeshaping is a lost art, so too is the Will and the Way.
I admit that i dont know a huge deal about the green age (not seen a great deal of info on this), but it has allways been depicted as mostly peacefull era where technological advancement and peace being its hallmarks. Capable of creating a sentient golem race purely for war? i expect so, but if it is a time of peace as it is implied in most sources i have read, what reason would they have to make an army of robot warriors? (Eberron had its reason, but not every setting really needs robot warriors)
We don't know that it was an era of peace, per se. It was an era of many civilizations living amongst each other, from human to troll to dwarf to elf to goblin to orc to pixie. We don't actually know the day-to-day diplomacy, level of conflict, borders of empire, and so on. So, to say that there would be no reason for an army of constructs (which, mind you, isn't required for warforged to be on Athas...they could easily be laborers, not designed for war at all, or a little from column A, a little from column B), is jumping the gun a bit, methinks.
I am seeing a whole lot of posts on attempts to justify the existance and inclusion of non-native races to Dark Sun, and i just cant see any reason 'why' they need to be included at all personally. I would prefer they expanded the playable races of Dark Sun with more 'native' species that already are a part of the lore yet perhaps not often played or considered playable in past editions.
I would rather see a Tarek than a Warforged, i would rather see Villichi than Tiefling, or a Belgoi rather than a Dragonborn (or indeed the Dray). Why go through all the effort of trying to make a square fit through a round hole, when there is already many squares around.
They can do both. As with the Realms, the blurbs on other races such as warforged, etc, need only be a couple of paragraphs apiece. This is not about placing a square peg in a round hole. This is about leaving open possibilities for DMs to utilize. Unlike previous editions of D&D, 4E is NOT about making sure every detail of every world is laid out in full. They tried that, and it didn't work. All that is required is that there be internally consistent and logical reasons on each world why [INSERT CONCEPT HERE] can be included in that world.
I too would LOVE to see Villichi and Tarek and whatnot. Remember, those can be new races with full entries, else get the Monster Manual treatment in a monster entry. One small section outlining why warforged, dragonborn, goliaths, tieflings, and so on, can fit on Athas, is not going to destroy the integrity of said world in any way, shape or form. As I previously pointed out, even gnomes, goblins, drow, and so on, can be included in this, by simple virtue of the inclusion of an expanded section on the Green Age, and a proper explanation about how these races do not exist in the Age of the Sorcerer-Kings as they were wiped from the face of Athas in a genocidal world war.
One small section outlining why warforged, dragonborn, goliaths, tieflings, and so on, can fit on Athas, is not going to destroy the integrity of said world in any way, shape or form.
It is however something WOTC has done far too much and raises so many questions that as a DM myself, these kind of 'small sections' require that *I* do a load of work to complete what they left out. I am sure that given time i could put up a good amount of information on the new race, its culture, ecology info and such, but i prefer 'less' entries on races that are complete and require little-no work on the implementation of them within my games, rather than 'many' entries which really leave all the work to the DM to explain away.
If there was the addition of a new 'playable race' in Athas, for example... Tiefling. I would need to know... How it survives, where it lives, its culture/lifestyle (Tribal? live in cities?) how is the race percieved by other races/communities?, what is its history? is it a newly created race from the pristine tower? a random mutation? How does it procreate to create new Tieflings with their own mutated species? or is every Tiefling a random mutation and sterile? How many of this race exist? Do they blend in with Half-Elves as fellow outcasts or despised by them?...
The list would continue. I cant accept just a small entry as a justifiable way to accept some random off-world race into my world, i would need all the details and id prefer not to have to create all those details myself
3.X, and 2E's overuse of detail was simply out of control. Laying out the location, name, background, and so on, of every single solitary NPC, item, town, building, etc, was boxing in campaigns too much, especially when playing with groups extremely familiar with the fluff. Yes, you could change things around. Then, you have to deal with a whole lot of baggage, as you endlessly have to explain yourself. I do not EVER want to see another campaign setting for D&D where every single possible detail of the entire game world is already written for me.
With the 4E "Points of Light" paradigm of campaign organization, that is simply not the case. Most major points are covered in detail, and the rest is purposefully left vague, and bereft of detail, so as to facilitate DM and player investment into the personalization of campaigns. This is vastly superior, and I do not expect to see it change. We will get a lot of meat in a DS reboot, but we will also see a lot of "Points of Light" style entries, with brief descriptions leaving most of the details to the DM (and/or players) to describe.
Well, I am a 22nd level Dragon, so...yeah, it might be possible. I certainly wasn't doing it consciously. Sorry 'bout that, peasant. Now, back to the human sacrifices! Else you can become one. Muahahahah.
All right. I'm off to find some sacrifices...
;)
Our needs are extraordinarily different, then.
I would hardly consider 3.5 or 2nd edition detailed, nor is every possible detail written by any means
But they had the basics, not enough to make a world beleivable and some glaring inconsistancies but its better than having to make it all up on the spot (and risk making even worse inconsistancies yourself) or preping a huge amount of info incase inquisitive players need to know. (or should i say 'when' with my usual players :p)
When a player asks to see the menu at the golden inix in Tyr, i have it prepared. That is the kind of information i am happy to complete myself, if a player wants to have a chat with thireth the owner and his latest family disputes, or evesdrop for local gossip i can improvise if needed or sometimes have that kind of thing prepared in advance. But if a suppliment is going to include an entire race of beings that never existed before... I just would like to know 'how' 'why' 'when' etc and a simple paragraph or two is not really enough of an explanation (and imo just plain lazy) And that is the kind of information i dont really want to have to make myself
I didn't actually say that...
Sorry, this actually was in answer to somebody else. I could have quoted you or them so you'd know who I was adressing. I kept switching between answering you and another.
Sorry, this actually was in answer to somebody else. I could have quoted you or them so you'd know who I was adressing. I kept switching between answering you and another.
...are we still allowed to agree to disagree though, or does this mean we need to continue debating? ;) :P