A thought about money - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

A thought about money

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Barbarossa_Rotbart
Feb 04, 2010 16:02:09 I know that it is too late to change anything with the fourth edition version of Dark Sun coming this summer, but something about the monetary system on Athas got me thinking. We all know that the common ceramic piece can be broken into bits. And here lies the problem. It is very easy to calculate with ten bits a piece. But that's not the problem. The problem is the design of the ceramic piece. You need a ruler and a compass to construct the decagon you need. I would be much better if only 8 bits were in a piece: you break to ceramic piece into two halves and get two 1/2 cp. You break an already halved ceramic piece into two parts and get two 1/4 cp. If you break the quartered ceramic piece into two parts you get two bits. A very simple system (and imo it is more suitable for the world of Dark Sun than the current one).
But what about the prices in the books?
If something costs one or two bits use that value unchanged.
If something costs between three and seven bits subtract one from the value to get the new price.
If something costs between eight and ten bits subtract two from the value to get the new price.
Ife something costs more than ten bits convert the price into cp and bits and look how many bits were left. A value of 47 bits would translate into 4 cp and 7 bits with 10 bits in a piece. That would be 4 cp and 5 bits if only 8 bits were in a piece. And that would be 37 bits (or eighth cp).
#2
Pennarin
Feb 04, 2010 16:18:53 Athasians use stamps and molds, like everyone else did on Earth, to make their ceramics and other coins, which allow for enough precision for it to be broken up into ten parts.

Sure, less parts would have been more realistic, but so would have been a bigger ceramic coin, or even a square.
#3
Barbarossa_Rotbart
Feb 04, 2010 16:42:29 A square would be the right form if you want four or sixteen bits in a piece.
A bigger coin would change nothing.

I'm just thinking that a decimal monetary system is too modern for a fantasy world. For Dark Sun barter and weird monetary systems (every city state has its own) work better than the slightly modified standard decimal system (which had been changed in every edition of D&D). (For Forgotten Realms or any other normal fantasy world I would take a look only the pre decimal-day british system or the wide variety of old german coins before the Franco-Prussian War of 1871.)
#4
Pennarin
Feb 04, 2010 17:10:49 A bigger coin can have bigger grooves that will make breaking up the coin in bits a safer thing. I can imagine many an Athasian ceramic broken into misshappen chunks that do not follow bit grooves, because the coin is fragile or the grooves are of irregular depths or sinuous, or the Athasian is too strong or is angry and manhandles the coin at breakup time.
#5
big_goon
Feb 04, 2010 17:12:00 A barter system could be more fun, if your characters enjoy roleplaying shopping. Carry around precious stones, the weight of which equals different monetary values. Gems, crystals, beaded glass, these would all portable. Different trading goods would be worth different amounts in each city-state a la Dune Trader. Nothing would be worth a set price, but would require persuation and good roleplaying. Even water could be used to trade in many areas.

The Vikings didn't have a money system, but bartered all their goods. A cow for a longboat, for example. Merchants carries scales to determine how much a rare metal or object is worth. The rich had coins from other countries, or gems and gold, but didn't often had these objects out as "pay". No point, if your slaves only get paid in food and lodgings.
#6
xlorep_darkhelm
Feb 04, 2010 17:45:16
A square would be the right form if you want four or sixteen bits in a piece.
A bigger coin would change nothing.

I'm just thinking that a decimal monetary system is too modern for a fantasy world. For Dark Sun barter and weird monetary systems (every city state has its own) work better than the slightly modified standard decimal system (which had been changed in every edition of D&D). (For Forgotten Realms or any other normal fantasy world I would take a look only the pre decimal-day british system or the wide variety of old german coins before the Franco-Prussian War of 1871.)

The decimal monetary system exists in D&D for simplicity's sake, not for realism. Yes, it really is a bit too modern for a fantasy setting, but what's more important: Playing the game, or having your players have to remember that there is 7 bits to the Draji Ceramic, while only 5 bits to the Tyrian ceramic, while there are 10 Urik Ceramics to the Silver, and 13 Raamin Ceramics to the Silver.

But, of course, you can always break the mold and reconfigure your own campaigns for different ways the money is divided up.
#7
Barbarossa_Rotbart
Feb 05, 2010 5:28:23 But in this case simplicity kills the mood.
#8
xlorep_darkhelm
Feb 05, 2010 8:49:00
But in this case simplicity kills the mood.

Well, if it is too simple, then just revise it for your own campaigns. It doesn't kill the mood for me and my group of gamers.
#9
Barbarossa_Rotbart
Feb 06, 2010 4:24:31 One aspect of the D&D monetary system is historical correct: that the value of a coin is based on the material if all coins are of the same weight. The medieval price of gold was between ten and twelve times in weight in silver (in the Maghreb it was between six and eight times its weight in silver). But sadly I could not find anything about the price of copper.
But as you can see the price of gold (and silver) is always based on the rarity of the metal. So for Dark Sun this means that gold and silver should be more valuable than they are. By replacing the gold piece with the ceramic piece as standard coin they have done a step in the right direction.

But one question remains: How much does a ceramic piece weight? If it weights the same as a gold or silver piece, this means that a pound of gold is as valuable as ten pounds of silver or one hundred pounds of broken ceramic. So I think that a ceramic piece was originally just some kind of certificate telling its owner that this should have the same value as a 1/10 of a silver piece.
#10
ian.thomson
Feb 06, 2010 11:19:36
Most money does operate as an IOU, or else it is really just a favored barter item. A chunk of pure metal that weighs as much as a coin of equal value might not be the same size: the coin might have been mixed with some other metals so that more coins could be made (it's really more the royal seal with the message "the emperor says it's valuable, so take it!" that would have been wanted), and counterfeiters would likely have shaved off bits of coins to get just a little bit more gold necessary to fake more coins.

If a ceramic piece (even indirectly) says "the sorcerer king says this is worth a tenth of a cow and he will nuke anyone that argues," then it's worth 1 GP. There are probably some of the SK's croneys going around market places to see how much certain items are traded for make sure that the coin's value is either close enough or profitable for the SK. It doesn't matter if the piece is a brick or a coin, it's 1 GP. For issues of practicality, I'd say assume that it's just standard coin size and weight.

As for the shape of ceramic coins: it could have been a circle cut down the middle with another circle in it, with the inner circle cut three more times. So you have two outer bits and eight inner bits. Pentagon shaped coins are also possible. Pentagram-within-pentagon shaped coins with the middle punched out would also allow coins to be kept on strings.

It's also possible that certain cities might have some stuff mixed in with the ceramic, so that someone with decent enough taste (perhaps even smell) could tell the difference between a piece of clay and a real ceramic piece.

Ooh, ideas for adventures: stealing a mold used to mint coins for a city, dealing with (or playing) templars who are trying to ruin a few businesses performing well enough to knock average prices (which determine coin values) in undesired directions, unveiling or hiding a cache of treasure that would make ceramic pieces as valuable as dry clay disks, or dealing with (or playing) templars who have to collect enough taxes and destroy the coins to stop inflation.
#11
Barbarossa_Rotbart
Feb 06, 2010 16:21:54 How big is a ceramic piece? To be useable it has to be much langer than a metal coin, because every bit has to be large enough to be recognisable as a bit of a ceramic piece (e.g. bearing the seal of the city state).

It could be that some city states (e.g. Urik) do not accept the ceramic pieces of certain other city states (e.g. Tyr) and the adventurers have to go to a money changer to get acceptable ceramic pieces (for a certain price).
#12
ian.thomson
Feb 06, 2010 20:28:11 Each piece wouldn't necessarily have to bear the whole seal, one side could be the seal, the scores for breaking it into bits could be on the other side. And stuff could be mixed in with the ceramic while it's being made, making the whole thing smell and taste differently from regular ceramic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Barbarossa_Rotbart Feb 04, 2010 16:02:09	I know that it is too late to change anything with the fourth edition version of Dark Sun coming this summer, but something about the monetary system on Athas got me thinking. We all know that the common ceramic piece can be broken into bits. And here lies the problem. It is very easy to calculate with ten bits a piece. But that's not the problem. The problem is the design of the ceramic piece. You need a ruler and a compass to construct the decagon you need. I would be much better if only 8 bits were in a piece: you break to ceramic piece into two halves and get two 1/2 cp. You break an already halved ceramic piece into two parts and get two 1/4 cp. If you break the quartered ceramic piece into two parts you get two bits. A very simple system (and imo it is more suitable for the world of Dark Sun than the current one). But what about the prices in the books? If something costs one or two bits use that value unchanged. If something costs between three and seven bits subtract one from the value to get the new price. If something costs between eight and ten bits subtract two from the value to get the new price. Ife something costs more than ten bits convert the price into cp and bits and look how many bits were left. A value of 47 bits would translate into 4 cp and 7 bits with 10 bits in a piece. That would be 4 cp and 5 bits if only 8 bits were in a piece. And that would be 37 bits (or eighth cp).
#2 Pennarin Feb 04, 2010 16:18:53	Athasians use stamps and molds, like everyone else did on Earth, to make their ceramics and other coins, which allow for enough precision for it to be broken up into ten parts. Sure, less parts would have been more realistic, but so would have been a bigger ceramic coin, or even a square.
#3 Barbarossa_Rotbart Feb 04, 2010 16:42:29	A square would be the right form if you want four or sixteen bits in a piece. A bigger coin would change nothing. I'm just thinking that a decimal monetary system is too modern for a fantasy world. For Dark Sun barter and weird monetary systems (every city state has its own) work better than the slightly modified standard decimal system (which had been changed in every edition of D&D). (For Forgotten Realms or any other normal fantasy world I would take a look only the pre decimal-day british system or the wide variety of old german coins before the Franco-Prussian War of 1871.)
#4 Pennarin Feb 04, 2010 17:10:49	A bigger coin can have bigger grooves that will make breaking up the coin in bits a safer thing. I can imagine many an Athasian ceramic broken into misshappen chunks that do not follow bit grooves, because the coin is fragile or the grooves are of irregular depths or sinuous, or the Athasian is too strong or is angry and manhandles the coin at breakup time.
#5 big_goon Feb 04, 2010 17:12:00	A barter system could be more fun, if your characters enjoy roleplaying shopping. Carry around precious stones, the weight of which equals different monetary values. Gems, crystals, beaded glass, these would all portable. Different trading goods would be worth different amounts in each city-state a la Dune Trader. Nothing would be worth a set price, but would require persuation and good roleplaying. Even water could be used to trade in many areas. The Vikings didn't have a money system, but bartered all their goods. A cow for a longboat, for example. Merchants carries scales to determine how much a rare metal or object is worth. The rich had coins from other countries, or gems and gold, but didn't often had these objects out as "pay". No point, if your slaves only get paid in food and lodgings.
#6 xlorep_darkhelm Feb 04, 2010 17:45:16	A square would be the right form if you want four or sixteen bits in a piece. A bigger coin would change nothing. I'm just thinking that a decimal monetary system is too modern for a fantasy world. For Dark Sun barter and weird monetary systems (every city state has its own) work better than the slightly modified standard decimal system (which had been changed in every edition of D&D). (For Forgotten Realms or any other normal fantasy world I would take a look only the pre decimal-day british system or the wide variety of old german coins before the Franco-Prussian War of 1871.) The decimal monetary system exists in D&D for simplicity's sake, not for realism. Yes, it really is a bit too modern for a fantasy setting, but what's more important: Playing the game, or having your players have to remember that there is 7 bits to the Draji Ceramic, while only 5 bits to the Tyrian ceramic, while there are 10 Urik Ceramics to the Silver, and 13 Raamin Ceramics to the Silver. But, of course, you can always break the mold and reconfigure your own campaigns for different ways the money is divided up.
#7 Barbarossa_Rotbart Feb 05, 2010 5:28:23	But in this case simplicity kills the mood.
#8 xlorep_darkhelm Feb 05, 2010 8:49:00	But in this case simplicity kills the mood. Well, if it is too simple, then just revise it for your own campaigns. It doesn't kill the mood for me and my group of gamers.
#9 Barbarossa_Rotbart Feb 06, 2010 4:24:31	One aspect of the D&D monetary system is historical correct: that the value of a coin is based on the material if all coins are of the same weight. The medieval price of gold was between ten and twelve times in weight in silver (in the Maghreb it was between six and eight times its weight in silver). But sadly I could not find anything about the price of copper. But as you can see the price of gold (and silver) is always based on the rarity of the metal. So for Dark Sun this means that gold and silver should be more valuable than they are. By replacing the gold piece with the ceramic piece as standard coin they have done a step in the right direction. But one question remains: How much does a ceramic piece weight? If it weights the same as a gold or silver piece, this means that a pound of gold is as valuable as ten pounds of silver or one hundred pounds of broken ceramic. So I think that a ceramic piece was originally just some kind of certificate telling its owner that this should have the same value as a 1/10 of a silver piece.
#10 ian.thomson Feb 06, 2010 11:19:36	Most money does operate as an IOU, or else it is really just a favored barter item. A chunk of pure metal that weighs as much as a coin of equal value might not be the same size: the coin might have been mixed with some other metals so that more coins could be made (it's really more the royal seal with the message "the emperor says it's valuable, so take it!" that would have been wanted), and counterfeiters would likely have shaved off bits of coins to get just a little bit more gold necessary to fake more coins. If a ceramic piece (even indirectly) says "the sorcerer king says this is worth a tenth of a cow and he will nuke anyone that argues," then it's worth 1 GP. There are probably some of the SK's croneys going around market places to see how much certain items are traded for make sure that the coin's value is either close enough or profitable for the SK. It doesn't matter if the piece is a brick or a coin, it's 1 GP. For issues of practicality, I'd say assume that it's just standard coin size and weight. As for the shape of ceramic coins: it could have been a circle cut down the middle with another circle in it, with the inner circle cut three more times. So you have two outer bits and eight inner bits. Pentagon shaped coins are also possible. Pentagram-within-pentagon shaped coins with the middle punched out would also allow coins to be kept on strings. It's also possible that certain cities might have some stuff mixed in with the ceramic, so that someone with decent enough taste (perhaps even smell) could tell the difference between a piece of clay and a real ceramic piece. Ooh, ideas for adventures: stealing a mold used to mint coins for a city, dealing with (or playing) templars who are trying to ruin a few businesses performing well enough to knock average prices (which determine coin values) in undesired directions, unveiling or hiding a cache of treasure that would make ceramic pieces as valuable as dry clay disks, or dealing with (or playing) templars who have to collect enough taxes and destroy the coins to stop inflation.
#11 Barbarossa_Rotbart Feb 06, 2010 16:21:54	How big is a ceramic piece? To be useable it has to be much langer than a metal coin, because every bit has to be large enough to be recognisable as a bit of a ceramic piece (e.g. bearing the seal of the city state). It could be that some city states (e.g. Urik) do not accept the ceramic pieces of certain other city states (e.g. Tyr) and the adventurers have to go to a money changer to get acceptable ceramic pieces (for a certain price).
#12 ian.thomson Feb 06, 2010 20:28:11	Each piece wouldn't necessarily have to bear the whole seal, one side could be the seal, the scores for breaking it into bits could be on the other side. And stuff could be mixed in with the ceramic while it's being made, making the whole thing smell and taste differently from regular ceramic.