Please feel free to update with your own ideas. Hope I didn't leave anything out.
Changelings: who?
Deva: ?
Dragonborn: Dray (I like the idea of dragonborn being the subjugated 1st generation dray and the second generation dray being villian race), Pterran
Eladrin: isolated locale of elves? random birth in elf tribes ?
Githzerai: elevated Gith tribes
Gnoll: raiding tribes
Gnome: ?
Goliath: ...Half-Giant (ECG suggests otherwise?)
Half-Orc: what do people think about refluff to Mul?
Minotaur: beasthead giant half-giants
Revenant: with the number of sentient undead in DS, this seems like a no-brainer
Tiefling: sorcerer-king experiment?
Warforged: life-shaped?
Wilden: jungle beasties
(one thing to note, though not player races, the second boxed set did introduce relic populations of lizardmen and relatively tame trolls)
All valid ideas. I think any race can be introduced into the setting given enough thought. I reallty have no issue with this idea. I can also understand those that wish to stay close to the mythos. At the end of the day it really comes down the game you want to run.
It better to include or at least give guideline to the most race possible and the DM cut to fit what he wants.
DEAD: Half-Orc, Gnome, Shifter, Goblinoids, Minotaur, Gnoll.
DS Player Guide races: Mul, Thri-Kreen, maybe Half-Giant.
PHB1&2:
- Tielfling: Demon-blooded, born random from human.
- Dragonborn: Dray, Pterran, maybe Ssurran also. Tribes, each having a Encounter Power different than the Breath.
- Goliath: feel already half-giant to me if they dont do them is DSPG.
- Deva: I like them as Pyreen. Refluff them as Avangionic-Primal as Druid & Preserver.
- Elf, Eladrin: Athasian Elf seems a mix of both. If they keep them separated, i expect Eladrin to have something else than Teleport but Eladrin make better Defiler than Elf.
Others (Eberron/Realms/Monster Manual)
- Genasi: Coming from the Elemental Chaos, i can expect some trapped on Athas.
- Warforged: Not as PC. Maybe as Obsidian living golem of old ages. Mul ''replace'' them.
- Changeling: Not sure, maybe very rare working for Sorcerer-King, a Defiler race?
- Kalashtar: NO. Too much connection with the planes & Eberron.
- Githzerai: Coming from the Elemental Chaos, i can expect some trapped on Athas.
As I've said before, I take it that now that Dark Sun is a world of "mutation", from all kinds of reasons, so odd races are considered well, par for the course, sort of also, they don't' HAVE to "look" mutated
ie my pal's goliath avenger started as a Human, he still looks Human, but has stats etc for a Goliath. the anicent spirits which filled him with their power, their revenge against the defilers, altered him. Works for me! 
Silverblade: Mutation can explain ''unique'' PC race/feature, i'm ok with that but not rare/uncommon/common races.
Why not?
why can't you have a whole race of dragonborn evolving somewhere out in the Darwinian arena of the wilderness...made by the force of a sorceror king (like dray)...spawned by malign energies bathing creatures in ancient ruins etc etc ;)
One idea I had to allow a full span of core racial options and yet keep intact the history of the Cleansing Wars would be to expand upon the premise of the 'New Races'.
In the Prism Pentad, Book 3 we meet Magnus the Windsinger - who claims to be an elf but apparently is really some kind of mutated, reptilian freak. By building on that feature, a variety of racial options can be explored.
The established canon in 2nd edition made it clear that gnomes and orcs for instance, were wiped out entirely during the Cleansing Wars. But there could be an option that allows for some Pristine-Tower life-shaper mutant to recapitulate an apparently extinct race. If a player just loves gnomes, and has to play a gnome, then mechanically he could use everything in the PH2 for the gnome race - but it will be clear he's a strange freak who's alone in the world. He probably won't even know he is a gnome, most common people, with little perspective on history, wouldn't recognize the species.
A DM might also rule that a New Races mutant might only borrow the mechanics of an extinct race, and not any recognizable appearance.
I think it's in keeping with the new design philosophy, from what happened in the Eberron Player's Guide; in 3rd Edition Eberron characters could only have Dragonmarks if they were of the right race, but they decided that was unnecessarily restrictive - now any PC can have any dragonmark, but if you're not the right race, you're just some aberrant weirdo - but you can still have the feat.
I think we should be able to use the game mechanics of any Core race, but preserve the history of Athas by saying that if you just have to play a dead race, well you're really just a New Races freak! Preserving History, and PC options.
Changelings: who?
The easiest, by far. :D They've always been around. They're just extraordinarily sneaky, and difficult to pin down. Plus, in 4E, a dead changeling doesn't revert to its natural form, so there would be no reason to suspect a dead dwarf/changeling, for example, isn't simply a dead dwarf.
Deva: ?
Perhaps they are simply some sort of rare human subspecies, ala the Villichi. They are born with a psionic link to the minds of many dead individuals (thus, the memories), and likely the Grey itself (explaining the resist to necrotic and radiant damage)?
Dragonborn: Dray (I like the idea of dragonborn being the subjugated 1st generation dray and the second generation dray being villian race)
Agreed. Dragonborn = a generation of dray with slightly different characteristics. On Athas, having all those different breath weapons and appearances actually makes sense, as well, with the prevalence of mutations in general.
Pterran
I'd simply make this some other race, not Dragonborn. Stat-wise, they can wait, in my opinion. They are not pressing.
Eladrin: isolated locale of elves? random birth in elf tribes ?
I'd definitely make Eladrin a rare, random subset of elves in an isolated region, who are just now making their way back into the world. I'd likely make them the more civilized elves, a throwback to how elves were in the Green Age.
Githzerai: elevated Gith tribes
Yup, and Githyanki too, if or when they make a formal appearance.
Gnoll: raiding tribes
A newer race, appearing after the Cleansing Wars. There was no Champion dedicated to slaughtering gnolls, so this is perfect. This is a race I would say were not around until post-Cleansing Wars, and therefore wouldn't be in campaigns taking place before then.
Gnome: ?
A race that is playable in the Green Age and for a time during the Cleansing Wars. I wouldn't have pockets of gnomes survive past then. However, mechanically speaking, someone could make a gnome without calling it a gnome. As with Magnus the Windsinger, in the "modern" age of the Sorcerer-Kings, a "gnome" would instead be a new race, a unique individual or one of its offspring, created by the Pristine Tower.
Goliath: ...Half-Giant (ECG suggests otherwise?)
A race that is intimately connected to the element of Earth. Their ancestors long ago took on aspects of earth itself.
Half-Orc: what do people think about refluff to Mul?
I don't think they quite fit Mul. This is another one that seems to fit as the occasional new race from the Pristine Tower.
Minotaur: beasthead giant half-giants
See gnolls, above. This would be a now-established race, sporadic and somewhat rare, that thrived post-Cleasing War.
Revenant: with the number of sentient undead in DS, this seems like a no-brainer
Yeah, super easy. Dark Sun has tons of sentient undead kept alive by force of will or personal faith alone. :D
Tiefling: sorcerer-king experiment?
A race, ala the goliaths, that came about more recently, with a connection to the Fire element. Perhaps they were from a city-state that tragically bargained with elemental lords of Fire. Eventually, their descendents paid dearly, scattered to the corners of the earth after some sort of disaster.
Warforged: life-shaped?
Varied. Some are life-shaped artifacts. Others are from the Green Age, psionic constructs housing the personalities of individuals from that Age. Still others are experiements by various sorcerer-monarchs throughout the ages.
Wilden: jungle beasties
Rare plant-based humanoids from the Crescent Forest, and the other forested areas of the world. Some might wander the desert, appearing cactus-like and camoflaged in desert colors. Reclusive, but with the rare indiviudal who makes its way to civilization. On Athas, such a being wouldn't be all that strange. People would be wary, and an eye would be kept on them, but they are no more unusual than Kreen, or the new races.
OTHERS:
Drow: Like the eladrin, a rare subset of elves. Perhaps, rather than being Underdark oriented, these are nocturnal elves, who (usually) sleep during the day in darkened areas, or build underground dwellings (as opposed to living in an Underdark live setting), etc, but come out at night.
Genasi: Ruvoka, from the DS Monstrous Compendium II: Terrors of Tyr. The fluff is a near-perfect fit.
Kalashtar: A subset of humans, with slightly more psychic powers than a normal human.
Shifters: This is also another good race to have as a subset of humans. Bloodlines who all have the old 2E Animal Affinity power innately, passed down to their offspring.
Worlds are shaped by the races that are there. Eberron races are eberron races. They do not and should not be transplanted somewhere else. They are part of the flavor of that world that makes it unique if they were everywhere, it wouldnt be frikkin unique. PHB has your standard basic races that more or less exist everywhere. Some worlds might have tieflings, some might not. Athas is pretty much cut off from all the planes except the elemental planes, you wont find any to none of the planar races present. This was made clear in 2e. DS has its own unique races that add flavor to it that you will not find anywhere else, Muls, half Giants, thri-kreen. They have no business being anywhere else since Athas is cut off. If you start bringing in other races it ceases being Athas and starts being some other generic crap world that WOTC has created instead of the gritty world that it is supposed to be. Let Athasians be Athasians and let everyone else sit in the kiddie pool.
Worlds are shaped by the races that are there. Eberron races are eberron races. They do not and should not be transplanted somewhere else. They are part of the flavor of that world that makes it unique if they were everywhere, it wouldnt be frikkin unique. PHB has your standard basic races that more or less exist everywhere. Some worlds might have tieflings, some might not. Athas is pretty much cut off from all the planes except the elemental planes, you wont find any to none of the planar races present. This was made clear in 2e. DS has its own unique races that add flavor to it that you will not find anywhere else, Muls, half Giants, thri-kreen. They have no business being anywhere else since Athas is cut off. If you start bringing in other races it ceases being Athas and starts being some other generic crap world that WOTC has created instead of the gritty world that it is supposed to be. Let Athasians be Athasians and let everyone else sit in the kiddie pool.
Couldn't disagree more. The races are only a part of it. Being different for the sake of differentiation is ridiculous. Being different because you've got another cool thing to do is far, far more worthwhile.
Races are just a collection of stats that lend themselves to a style of play. Reinterpreting Deva as some kind of ancient spirit freed from its prison and roaming the world once more is perfectly in keeping with the setting. It is not a race that was originally featured, but it very clearly could fit the setting. The grittiness/harshness of the setting is not dependent on the races featured in it.
If I ever do run a Dark Sun game in 4E (I never would have in 2E because the psionics rule were stupid), I'll absolutely allow somebody to play any race whatsoever... so long as they're willing to work with me to make it fit into the setting. Want to play a Drow? Sure... just a mutant elf (or even human) that was driven out of the tribe for being a freak, spent a lot of time underground. Warforged? No problem. Unique creation of a defiler who was killed by an angry mob. Without its creator, the chitinous sentient golem is left to find its way in the world after escaping the angry mob. Was it created by the defiler, or merely repaired? If it was repared, where did it come from? Lots of good stuff to be done with that.
So long as story can be made to fit, the character can fit. The most important part is the harsh and unforgiving landscape, the oppressive Sorceror Kings, the Dragon, the effect of magic on the environment. The dominant races are important, no mistake... just not so important as the dark and grim surroundings in which these races find themselves.
Also, just because the player's character is a gnome, that does not mean that there is a race of gnomes out there. Same goes for any "non-canon" race you wish to play. Maybe the character is a unique mutation. Maybe they're a unique creation. Any story that fits, well... it fits.
Warforged in Athas would be funny as written. "Warforge Bob walks into Tyr to go to market. Guards and every other person in city sees walking gold mine in metal form. Bob becomes biggest source of metal in a century or two and asks himself what the hell was he thinking as they melt him down."
If for some horrid reason they did incorporate warforged they would have to be toned down greatly and the metal gotten rid of. Chiton armor is not near as protective and like everything else in Athas AC is almost pointless. On the bright side they wouldnt have to worry about water. On the negative side, hit them with a blunt weapon and they start cracking like skeles.
I dont see the need to compromise. Characters are heros because of what they make of themselves not because of what weird race or mutation they have. Call me a nazi of a DM but i would never allow any but traditional Athasian races, it would ruin the flavor of the game otherwise and there sure as hell would be no paladins. Then again if they screw this up and dumb it down like the rest of 4e, I probably wont play 4e again anyway. Too many good RPGs out there to waste my time with this kindergarten crap.
Now that they have ruled out a new class for darksun, that leaves a lot of page space...which could mean a thorough going over of the current 4e races and/or possible multiple races added in DS
Warforged in Athas would be funny as written. "Warforge Bob walks into Tyr to go to market. Guards and every other person in city sees walking gold mine in metal form. Bob becomes biggest source of metal in a century or two and asks himself what the hell was he thinking as they melt him down."
If for some horrid reason they did incorporate warforged they would have to be toned down greatly and the metal gotten rid of. Chiton armor is not near as protective and like everything else in Athas AC is almost pointless. On the bright side they wouldnt have to worry about water. On the negative side, hit them with a blunt weapon and they start cracking like skeles.
You do know that Warforged have no special AC bonus now, right? That the fact of their being made of metal and wood isn't a direct benefit? It's flavour. One of the biggest deals of being a Warforged is their durability, but it works differently. It is not a boost to AC.
I dont see the need to compromise. Characters are heros because of what they make of themselves not because of what weird race or mutation they have. Call me a nazi of a DM but i would never allow any but traditional Athasian races, it would ruin the flavor of the game otherwise and there sure as hell would be no paladins. Then again if they screw this up and dumb it down like the rest of 4e, I probably wont play 4e again anyway. Too many good RPGs out there to waste my time with this kindergarten crap.
I don't see it as compromise at all. It's not. It's adding awesome to awesome and getting more awesome. Warforged are cool. Got a cool backstory? Great! Gnomes are now surprisingly cool. Got a good backstory that fits with the setting? Great. Bring it on. I was kind of under the impression that everybody in Dark Sun was a bit of a mutated freak, anyway.
As for Paladins... seriously, did you read the same campaign setting I did? Because if you're trying to tell me that a warrior empowered by their god (in Dark Sun, probably a sorceror king) and enforcing their will at the point of a sword is not appropriate, I have news for you. They called them Templars. There is no alignment restriction on being a Paladin anymore; it just takes devotion to a god, or when there are no gods... a Sorceror King.
If 4E is kindergarten crap, as you seem to need to mention every single post you make, why do you even care what they're going to do with it? Clearly you don't like the system, so just use what you already have from 2E or the online stuff people did for 3.x.
I dont see the need to compromise. Characters are heros because of what they make of themselves not because of what weird race or mutation they have. Call me a nazi of a DM but i would never allow any but traditional Athasian races, it would ruin the flavor of the game otherwise and there sure as hell would be no paladins. Then again if they screw this up and dumb it down like the rest of 4e, I probably wont play 4e again anyway. Too many good RPGs out there to waste my time with this kindergarten crap.
Are you sure you've even played 4E? Such a vast diversity of encounters, (Solos, Elites, Minions!) And all the powers to spice up combat! Whew! I would not want to go back to the repetitiveness of 3e.
I just don't see a point in shoehorning new races into the setting cannon, just because they made those races standard in the default 4E setting. Sure, If you wanted to play an halforc-like mutation I see no harm, but to make it cannon means Wizards coming up with some stupid reason why a small band of orcs survived the cleansing wars, and now the populate every corner of Athas.
Warforged... I loved them to death in Eberron, but what else can I say about a race created & animated by illegal spellcraft?
I do think Paladins totally work as Templars though.
I just don't see a point in shoehorning new races into the setting cannon, just because they made those races standard in the default 4E setting. Sure, If you wanted to play an halforc-like mutation I see no harm, but to make it cannon means Wizards coming up with some stupid reason why a small band of orcs survived the cleansing wars, and now the populate every corner of Athas.
Warforged... I loved them to death in Eberron, but what else can I say about a race created & animated by illegal spellcraft?
I do think Paladins totally work as Templars though.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I disagree with the idea of retconning it so Orcs survived the purge or whatever. I hope they don't do that, too. There's no need for it. What I hope for and anticipate are a few little sidebars that give ideas on incorporating X race for a PC. As in, "Want to play X? Here are a few ideas for a backstory. Talk to your DM about it."
I'm not so stuck on Warforged, I just keep using them as an example because they seem to be a big sticking point for a lot of people. I don't see the big deal in a PC being a unique creation. Just so long as there's not a whole party full...
If 4E is kindergarten crap, as you seem to need to mention every single post you make, why do you even care what they're going to do with it?
I haven't even really played or looked at 4E yet, but I'm tired of hearing this non-stop "it's all stupid and for babies and completely ruined!" chant. Really. It is absolutely without purpose; you can't change anyone's mind or prove anything by baselessly implying they like kindergarten stuff and your choice is morally superior. Especially when we're talking about GAMES.
I'm tired of it because we went through THE EXACT SAME NONSENSE when 3E came out. EXACTLY.
Ask any of the old timers on this board: "3E ruins D&D! 3E is just a video game dressed up like an RPG! 3E is for power-gamers who don't know how to roleplay. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah-blah-blah." For us grognards, same thing happened with 2E, when the pages of Dragon's letter column were full of cries that 2E spelled the end of D&D and role-playing. And again for even older grognards, when D&D split from wargaming. EXACTLY the same nonsense. EXACTLY.
We get it! X isn't your thing. But that doesn't make it Bad Wrong Fun or simplistic garbage. So enough. Cease fire. Stop.
/mutter Every edition change...I swear... mutter/
Sure, If you wanted to play an halforc-like mutation I see no harm, but to make it cannon means Wizards coming up with some stupid reason why a small band of orcs survived the cleansing wars, and now the populate every corner of Athas.
Except we don't know that the Cleansing Wars actually happened in this new version of Athas. (I'm kind of hoping they didn't...that never really clicked with me as the foundation for a world-destroying war that lasted thousands of years, or at least not the way they set it up with Rajaat and so forth). I'd honestly like the history left wide open for the GM to develop, with only hints and legends of what came before that can be used or discarded as myth (or the past just ignored entirely) by the play group.
And I'd love to see a dozens of different versions of Athas' history and such whipped up on the boards here, maybe even start a "Histories of Athas" wiki on the new community site to catalogue and explore all of them. I think that would be fairly incredible.
I do agree that almost anything can be described as some kind of mutation, or its color messed about with so that it is a "gnome" (or whatever) mechanically, but not fictionally. That's pretty spiffy, in fact. There are some pretty awesome ideas up-thread (devas as powerful spirits recently freed, frex) on how to do things like that.
For example, a warforged as a very minor spirit of the land that invested its consciouness into a body formed of the elements in order to flee a murderous defiler. Or a tiefling: the child of a woman "touched" by shadow giants, gifted with dark powers from the gaping maw of the Black. Gnomes as rare "throwback" halflings (mutations). Etc.
To each their own I guess... I kinda see that as one of the basics of Darksun, purposly written to keep the setting from becoming yet another watered down Greyhawk setting. They made a direct decision early on to eliminate certain "staple" dnd races (and keep them dead), and completely change our look on others (i.e. tall elves, bald dwarves, cannibal halflings, etc).
I actually think it is important to keep Gnomes (etc.) dead, otherwise the horror of the Cleansing Wars gets diluted.
I actually think it is important to keep Gnomes (etc.) dead, otherwise the horror of the Cleansing Wars gets diluted.
That's what I'm saying, though: they're not actually "gnomes" (or whatever), so it doesn't upset the canon or reduce the horror. The mutant/New Races, while a big part of the early color, were always a sadly underdeveloped part of the setting in play. "Swapping out Color" as above is a great way to integrate them more soundly without having to develop a bunch of actually new races.
If the Cleansing Wars even happen, remember that all came out after the first box set. Same can be said for the Dray and dragonborn connection and so many other arguments I've seen around here as of late.
All that is really in the first box set is: life is cheap and it sucks, everything tries to kill you, slavery is rampant, there are 7 nigh indestructible mad-men running the last few shreds of civilization and they have über-corrupt lackeys running things, all magic kills to one degree or another, reading has been outlawed, the gods are gone if they ever existed, Thri-kreen, Mul, and Half-giants are playable, elves, dwarves and halflings have changed, everything else has been eliminated (without explanation), oh and there is no water for you today - good luck.
So, did I miss anything?
The Cleansing Wars themselves are part of the secret history of Athas, and as such has not necessarily a place in the new Dark Sun, which returns to the basics. Still, the consequence of this secret history, in the original box, was that many playable races were missing. This last part is still an important element of the greatness of the setting, IMO.
Since this is 4e and the setting will receive minimal support (like all other settings), then hurray to have as many races included in the book and I'll slash any I don't like and make it my Athas.
The Cleansing Wars themselves are part of the secret history of Athas, and as such has not necessarily a place in the new Dark Sun, which returns to the basics. Still, the consequence of this secret history, in the original box, was that many playable races were missing. This last part is still an important element of the greatness of the setting, IMO.
Since this is 4e and the setting will receive minimal support (like all other settings), then hurray to have as many races included in the book and I'll slash any I don't like and make it my Athas.
You, sir, win the prize. Collect +1 internets at your convenience.
Ou bien un morceau de robot!
The Cleansing Wars themselves are part of the secret history of Athas, and as such has not necessarily a place in the new Dark Sun, which returns to the basics. Still, the consequence of this secret history, in the original box, was that many playable races were missing. This last part is still an important element of the greatness of the setting, IMO.
Since this is 4e and the setting will receive minimal support (like all other settings), then hurray to have as many races included in the book and I'll slash any I don't like and make it my Athas.
Bah, you are correct. I keep forgetting how little background is in the boxed set. Even the fact that the SK's are Dragons isn't in the boxed set, though I think that will be added to the 4e canon to facilitate Epic play.
I keep forgetting how little background is in the boxed set. Even the fact that the SK's are Dragons isn't in the boxed set, though I think that will be added to the 4e canon to facilitate Epic play.
There is only ONE Dragon! The SKs being dragons is a filthy lie perpetrated by the bourgeouis masters of the city-states to frighten the ignorant proletariat into further unquestioning obesiance and make themselves look like rock stars!
