So, I thought "hey, maybe she realized that dragonhood would essentially make her Queen of Absolutely Nothing Worth Ruling, so she decided to take the long and ultimately worthwhile way; after all, people love a forest goddess".
So, my canonical explanation for her "master plan" is her experimenting with completely inverting her biological nature, becoming a metamorphsing avangion instead...which would leave her alignment and generally nasty personality intact, since perserving isn't naturally good. She's just a more cunning variety of villain, not to mention that her newfound respect for living things means that she won't underestimate her foes.
Plus, the idea of an evil avangion is a very awesome idea for a final boss.
So, like my idea?
I do agree she is up to something and I'm sure every DS GM will have an opinon on exactly what that is.
Personally... I don't know. I love Raam, and so going to have to figure it out. My only real thought is that she is trying to maybe "unbecome" a dragon. Maybe she wants to take a different Epic Path :D
Sorry.
Ablach-re is simply a Sorc-Queen who has lost their grip on what they need to do to keep their rule. I think the Campaign setting presents a good varied interesting mix of Despots. She is a supreme Hedonist who revels in anything that she finds interesting, then discards it after it is no longer enjoyable or pretty. This however dosnt benefit her city or people which is why it might be the next to collapse. She is still quite wicked though, but I think she has stopped in her ascension to Dragonhood.
mmmm... No I don't
Sorry.
Ablach-re is simply a Sorc-Queen who has lost their grip on what they need to do to keep their rule. I think the Campaign setting presents a good varied interesting mix of Despots. She is a supreme Hedonist who revels in anything that she finds interesting, then discards it after it is no longer enjoyable or pretty. This however dosnt benefit her city or people which is why it might be the next to collapse. She is still quite wicked though, but I think she has stopped in her ascension to Dragonhood.
I definatley feel this is debatable. Or am I the only one who thinks Ablech-re has some kind of long term plan going on here?
I fully believe while many if not all of the sorcerer-kings are insane in their own way, I have a hard time believing any of them are totally out of control.
Maybe I'm parinoid, but I definatley feel she is up to somthing.
Abalach-Re is a cruel and selfish queen who cares only about two things, gaining power for herself and making sure nobody threatens her place. She has callow disregard for her city and her underlings and revels in cruelty. She lets starvation and corruption run rampant in her city because she simply can't be bothered to do anything about it. However, when Dregoth was on the verge of completing his metamorphisis she was the one that found out and warned the other Sorcerer Kings so they could take him out before he could amass too much power. She maintains a facade of indolent hedonism simply to encourage her enemies and would be rebels in Raam to come out into the open so she can destroy them.
In 2nd Edition there was an adventure entitled Forest Maker in which Abalach-Re used an artifact in her possession to pose as an Avangion and even use fake preserver magic. She created a forest in the alluvial sand wastes and used rituals to summon good aligned creatures there. She would then complete the ritual by sacrificing all of these good creatures in order to leap further ahead in her Dragon metamorphisis. She's hardly a candidate for Avangion status without a complete rewrite.
Lalali-Puy may appear to be a benevolent forest goddess, but the fact is that she and her templars use vile sorcereries and dark rituals to bind primal spirits to her service. Without these rituals the primal spirits would sack Gulg in a heartbeat. She only uses the forests to power her dark magics, not to help restore life to Athas. Lalali-Puy is also incredibly cruel and ruthless towards anyone who would dare threaten her. She also owns every single person and thing in Gulg and rules it as an absolute dictator and tyrant. Again, hardly a candidate for Avangion status.
In old Dark Sun, there was only one Sorcerer King who turned away from evil- Onoris of Kurn. Around 1000 or so years ago, riddled with guilt over thinking he'd wiped out the lizardmen (actually a small tribe was kept safe by the Mind Lords), Oronis stepped down as a true Sorcerer King and renounced defiling magic. He maintained Kurn as a facade, in all appearances still a city ruled by a Sorcerer King, but he secretly built New Kurn- a paradise intended to recreate the Green Age and moved most of his citizens there. A "skeleton crew" of his followers stay in Old Kurn to maintain the facade with the outside world. Due to Kurn's isolation, the Dragon and the other Sorcerer Kings leave it alone for the most part. Eventually Onoris developed the process of preserver metamorphisis and became the first Avangion.
Although of course, the ED will just be as a baseline, as Sadira will be an NPC at best. In fact, one of my players seems like he's on the slow rout to becoming dragon king and re-instating monarchy to Tyr, so Sadira could be a nice, low-epic avangion BBGG (big bad good girl?) that can end paragon tier.
(A part of me's really sad that there are no monster stats for the avangion. >.>)
Reading the Creature Catalogue entries for both Ablalach-Re and Lalali-Puy it's clear neither one is a candidate for Avangion status. Avangions are supposed to represent the embodiement of life and goodness, just as Dragon Kings are meant to be the embodiement of death, selfish megolamania and evil. Neither one would work as an Avangion without completely rewriting their character (which is, of course, your option in your game).
I'll give you the part on Dragon Kings, but I don't see any alignment restrictions on Avangions-even in2E.
The part I got is that they embody life and creation, not good. While the two are frequently synonomus, the Good spectrum does not have a monopoly on those two qualities-just ask a primordial.
Sure, an evil Avangion is more of a long-term planner and pragmatic then a Dragon King-but those qualities are what make Evil truly dangerous.
I'll give you the part on Dragon Kings, but I don't see any alignment restrictions on Avangions-even in2E.
The part I got is that they embody life and creation, not good. While the two are frequently synonomus, the Good spectrum does not have a monopoly on those two qualities-just ask a primordial.
Sure, an evil Avangion is more of a long-term planner and pragmatic then a Dragon King-but those qualities are what make Evil truly dangerous.
This, although I'd still house rule that an Avangion has to be Lawful Good of the most horrible kind to actually qualify for the transformation. The "powers" of good and evil don't respond to half measures, or even 3/4-measures. You're either so good you kick orc babies, or so evil you kick human babies.
Also, the only two NPC Avangions in 2nd edition canon were Oronis and Korgunard, who were both Lawful Good in alignment.
There were three Avangions - Korgunarrd, Oronis and Nerad. Or even four if you count Amiska (21st-level Avangion in "Service" a Story by Lynn Abbey).
/cliffhanger
Donuts?
If I were an extremely powerful caster, who drew my power from the life around me, and I had plans to use Extremely Powerful Rituals, you know what I'd want to see when I looked out my window?
/cliffhanger
An equivalent Sherwood Forest with Trees of Life?
Back to the Thread, I DM'ed a campaign in the 90's that went from L3 to hmm, around 26 I think, and we had an Evil avangion in the group (Neutral Evil)
Alignment being a guide, he was an arrogant prat who had zero respect for people in general, but an utmost respect for the natural world (and defilers killed his parents blah blah). Therefore, given that he wanted nothing more than to restore forests and greenery, I had no problems with him undergoing the Metamorphosis (which while generally good aligned, was more tied to the land than to people)
He had massive roleplaying issues in enlisting aid from other good-aligned NPC's organisations, which led to (as he put it) bloody inane questing to prove a point! but that was the price he paid for being weird.
I have no problems with the concept of a Sorceror King turning back and going for Avangion status (*cough* Orionis of Kurn) however, Abalache-Re and Lalalai-Puy don't fit the bill.
Lalalai-Puy doesn't want to restore nature, she wants to control it (Much 2e flavour led to the 4e fact that all the elemental and primal powers she commands would turn on her in an instant, if given the choice).
And Abalache-Re is just plain nuts.
I seem to remember in the novel Rise and Fall of a Dragon King where Hamanu confides to Pavek that he had periods of generations (maybe up to a century) where he left control of his city to the bureaucrats. He was just kind of off doing his own thing, whatever immortals do.... in his case cavorting with a powerful Druidess, while corruption and injustice ran rampant. When he would turn his attention back to Urik he would purge the ranks of his Templars and Nobles to swing things back into equilibrium.
Nibenay seemed to have practiced this as well, although his shadow brides took good care of the city while his attention was focused on magical and astronomical research.
Kalak didn't seem to care about the condition of Tyr while he was building the ziggaraut according to The Vedant Passage.
It doesn't seem so out of character to me for an SK to let their city fall by the wayside while they pursue ends that are more important to them. The question is, what will Uyness do when her interests turn back to Raam?
It doesn't seem so out of character to me for an SK to let their city fall by the wayside while they pursue ends that are more important to them. The question is, what will Uyness do when her interests turn back to Raam?
Hmm, I understand powerful SK's just not caring about the common masses while they have more important things to do...
But Abalache-re is always described as overly paranoid for a start, and nothing in any novels or sources even hints otherwise, with the SINGLE exception that she MAY have a chance at turning back from being a dragon.
Besides this indicating that she's having second thoughts about the metamorphisis (as OP suggests), it could also mean that she's the weakest of the SK's, which leads nicely into her being paranoid about losing her position and/or life (as per the unfortunate SK who used to rule Yaramuke, just up the street).
The veiled alliance are fully aware of the Preserving method of spellcasting but they arn't talking to anyone about it openly because that would risk exposure as a Arcane Caster plus Defilers arn't asking anyone about how to to Preserve for the same reason.
These are the aspects of Dark Sun that have been pushed aside with the new edition. Easily resolved but shame this wasn't included.
i just want to throw in that in 2e there was an adventure were abalch-re masquaraded as an avangion so she could try to convert the masses that gathered to her into the energy needed to transform into a full fledged dragon. just wanted to add that.
Rrrr? That little tid-bit has been sequestered from my head for some reason. I don't remember that one at all! o.O
Which adventure was that?
Forest Maker
Ahh! The 'Forest rumoured to be sprouting from the desert', and an Avangion on the cover?
I never got that one
Here, eBay.eBay.eBay.eBay.eBay.eBay.eBay.......
And Abalache-Re is just plain nuts.
*sob* Abbie is my favorite Sorceror King/Queen. The Offspring are part of a sinister, cunning plot - she's more capable than her enemies believe. And she's not the weakest. Both Tektuktitlay and Andropinis are weaker than her.
And her pic in the creature catalog didn't do her justice.
I would gladly become her next consort.
And Abalache-Re is just plain nuts.
*sob* Abbie is my favorite Sorceror King/Queen. The Offspring are part of a sinister, cunning plot - she's more capable than her enemies believe. And she's not the weakest. Both Tektuktitlay and Andropinis are weaker than her.
And her pic in the creature catalog didn't do her justice.
I would gladly become her next consort.
Hey, whatever floats your boat, dude :P just remember she's a bona-fide crazy-lady, but with Templars instead of cats.
She's an epic SK....her physical appearance is pretty irrelevant, as she has more than enough mojo to transform herself into anything she wants to look like.
Hell, Hamanu favours ye olde half-man-half-lion whenever he wants to rip people apart himself....
Gotta dispute your claim there. The Avangion isn't a force for good but the ultimate union between an Arcane Caster and the living world around them. More Jedi and force thing going on. The Defiler has no care about the damage they are doing and are absolutely selfish or ignorant of the Preserving\slower Preserving method.
The veiled alliance are fully aware of the Preserving method of spellcasting but they arn't talking to anyone about it openly because that would risk exposure as a Arcane Caster plus Defilers arn't asking anyone about how to to Preserve for the same reason.
These are the aspects of Dark Sun that have been pushed aside with the new edition. Easily resolved but shame this wasn't included.
That's the 4e version. The 2e version had a strict Lawful Good requirement. It was a force of Lawful Good, first and foremost, and the designers forgot the fact that Lawful Good in any setting doesn't encourage life. That's Chaotic/Neutral Good. Lawful Good is very much urban and doesn't really care about green space. After all, life by itself isn't usually Lawful, and thus not Good in the eyes of Lawful Good.
There's a reason why Lawful is put first in Lawful Good, y'know...
There's a reason why Lawful is put first in Lawful Good, y'know...
This explains a lot ;)
Everytime I saw an LG player, they were more Lawful Violent than anything else
Interesting thread. Abalach-Re and the City of Raam are pretty awesome, and I have some ideas about what she's up to.
Abalach-Re has renounced her title as the Queen fo Ramm, and instead claims that she is a servant of a deity called "Badna". Now, it's widely considered that this deity is a fabrication, but why would she be doing this?
Perhaps there is a method to her madness? Consider for a moment that Raam has had a whole caste of religious men (which is odd in a world with dead gods) whose importance was greatly reduced by the introduction of the deity.
Also, is it just me, or does it seem like the built all the Sorceror Kings as dabbling in another class of some kind? Lalali-Puy is a Shaman or Druid (in addition to being a SK), Nibenay is some kind of Shadow-mage, Hamanu is a Swordmage or Warlord, etc.
What if Abalach-Re is trying to become an Invoker? And what if her Offspring are part of the plan?
Just a few things to think about.
A good possibility here is from the ever-mighty Order of the Stick(tm), and the mad-as-a-hatter, Lord Shojo....
www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html
www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html
Namaste.
Interesting thread. Abalach-Re and the City of Raam are pretty awesome, and I have some ideas about what she's up to.
Abalach-Re has renounced her title as the Queen fo Ramm, and instead claims that she is a servant of a deity called "Badna". Now, it's widely considered that this deity is a fabrication, but why would she be doing this?
Perhaps there is a method to her madness? Consider for a moment that Raam has had a whole caste of religious men (which is odd in a world with dead gods) whose importance was greatly reduced by the introduction of the deity.
Also, is it just me, or does it seem like the built all the Sorceror Kings as dabbling in another class of some kind? Lalali-Puy is a Shaman or Druid (in addition to being a SK), Nibenay is some kind of Shadow-mage, Hamanu is a Swordmage or Warlord, etc.
What if Abalach-Re is trying to become an Invoker? And what if her Offspring are part of the plan?
Just a few things to think about.
Yes, indeed an interesting option.
Or:
A) She's trying to lay the foundations of all Raam's woes (and possible new devotional requirements?) at the feet of a new false god, therefore shifting all blame away from her (good political move).
If she then sets herself up as the High Prophet of Badna, she still gets all the power, but now instead of people arguing with her, she can claim "Badna says..." at the front of every proclamation.
B) She's finally cracked up, and Badna is the name for the extra voice in her head..
In my world, Abalache-Re is either a deceptive genius, or a bona-fide crazy lady. No PC is ever quite sure ;)
snip
A)She's trying to lay the foundations of all Raam's woes (and possible new devotional requirements?) at the feet of a new false god, therefore shifting all blame away from her (good political move).
If she then sets herself up as the High Prophet of Badna, she still gets all the power, but now instead of people arguing with her, she can claim "Badna says..." at the front of every proclamation.
B) She's finally cracked up, and Badna is the name for the extra voice in her head..
Who says the answer isn't "all of the above"?
Making a heel-face turn (or face-heel, in a non-Lawful Good campaign) to Lawful Good is not only stupid, but impossible. The powers of Lawful Good just aren't that forgiving. If the powers of Law don't reject someone, the powers of Good will, and you have to get the approval from both. At which point Ygorl sneaks in and noodles the would-be alignment shifter's brain with its tentacle.
And that's not even taking the inherent alignment of various races into account. You don't see Lawful Good orcs for a very good reason; even the babies are evil.
Making a heel-face turn (or face-heel, in a non-Lawful Good campaign) to Lawful Good is not only stupid, but impossible. The powers of Lawful Good just aren't that forgiving. If the powers of Law don't reject someone, the powers of Good will, and you have to get the approval from both. At which point Ygorl sneaks in and noodles the would-be alignment shifter's brain with its tentacle.
And that's not even taking the inherent alignment of various races into account. You don't see Lawful Good orcs for a very good reason; even the babies are evil.
Actually 3e turned that on its head, and 4e has continued opposing your argument.
3e allowed even CE aligned creatures (eg Red Dragons) to be 'Redeemed' (and accepted by the LG powers that be)and now in 4e, even the previously inherently aligned creatures have only got alignments as guidelines.
In 2e and earlier, creatures such as dragons (and goblinoids etc) had a strict Alignment set:, ie Always LG, always LE etc etc
It goes on to explicitly state somewhere in the 4e Draconomicon2 (Metallic dragons) that the alignments are now guidelines for these creatures, and they can be whatever alignment you see fit, regardless of gaming history, campaign history or general alignment and culture.
(They note that this was done so that even non-evil parties could rationally face up and fight the whole good aligned dragon side, whereas it used to be that some of these creatures' most dangerous ability was to talk you to death!
)That's no longer the case. So now saying that with these races 'even the babies are evil', that's just your opinion, not a 4e factoid.
Demons, Devils, Archons and other creatures specifically born onto an aligned plane (Abyss, Hell, Celestia etc), may still inherit 'locked' alignments, but that's due to the plane from which they spawn.
In 4e, material creatures that are 'born' on the prime-material (regardless of previous 1e,2e,3e canon) are rarely locked into an alignment now.
Personally, I think that's a good thing. It gives the DM's more scope to field beasties against the party...and surprise the pants off long-term gamers...
'What do you mean the gold dragon attacks us?!'
Actually 3e turned that on its head, and 4e has continued opposing your argument.
I'm aware of that, and disagree with it.
I think I know why everything was made redeemable; because hard-coded alignments (specifically hard-coded class alignments, specifically the paladin and anti-paladins' requirements for Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil respectively) caused problems for players whose characters deviated slightly and got hit with the XP penalty stick. That, and it was also to open things up for people who might want to play Lawful Good but couldn't stomach the hardcore fundamentalism that stereotypical Lawful Good requires. Such as killing orc babies because even the babies are inherently evil.
That wasn't any more disruptive, however, than the Barbarian's hard-coded requirement to destroy any spellcasters they encountered (including the party healer and mage), or the Cavalier's hard-coded requirement to be a jerk to anyone not born with a silver teething ring.
I think WotC chickened out, when it should have taken the stereotype past 9,000 and left the XP penalties for alignment shifting (at least shifting from Lawful Good) in.
Actually 3e turned that on its head, and 4e has continued opposing your argument.
I'm aware of that, and disagree with it.
I think I know why everything was made redeemable; because hard-coded alignments (specifically hard-coded class alignments, specifically the paladin and anti-paladins' requirements for Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil respectively) caused problems for players whose characters deviated slightly and got hit with the XP penalty stick. That, and it was also to open things up for people who might want to play Lawful Good but couldn't stomach the hardcore fundamentalism that stereotypical Lawful Good requires. Such as killing orc babies because even the babies are inherently evil.
That wasn't any more disruptive, however, than the Barbarian's hard-coded requirement to destroy any spellcasters they encountered (including the party healer and mage), or the Cavalier's hard-coded requirement to be a jerk to anyone not born with a silver teething ring.
I think WotC chickened out, when it should have taken the stereotype past 9,000 and left the XP penalties for alignment shifting (at least shifting from Lawful Good) in.
*laughs* You're absolutely allowed to disagree, but your post said:
Making a heel-face turn (or face-heel, in a non-Lawful Good campaign) to Lawful Good is not only stupid, but impossible. The powers of Lawful Good just aren't that forgiving
...
You don't see Lawful Good orcs for a very good reason; even the babies are evil.
I was just pointing out that in 4e, it's completely possible to redeem, and the babies aren't inherently evil.
Also, your old examples of the paladins, cavaliers etc were indeed strict codes of ethics, and personally I enjoyed giving my PC's who played these races ethical dilemmas as a daily course of play:
Vs Paladin:
- The demonic-enemy is getting away to fight another day. Do you go after him, or treat the wounded innocents from the battle?
- The orc child does not detect as evil...what do you do?
Vs Cavalier:
- In the foreign court of the king, the merchant prince controlling the food aid to your ravaged land just insulted your royal parentage, what do you do?
Also, 4e has no XP penalties any more (even for dying). Again, good thing in my book. People know where they stand, and you can run a party XP tally to make the book-keeping easier.
And, 4e has no penalties for alignment (Hell, alignments used to have their own LANGUAGE in early editions. Did you want them to keep that too? Where do you draw the line on alignment being required for class features?)
Personally, I've always felt alignment was a good general indicator, but it should never be a score-card that the DM uses to whallop you. If the gods aren't answering the Paladin's prayers anymore, let the PC be introspective as to why that is, and give him the answer in a quest.
As for what was more disruptive (Barbarian, Anti-Paladin, Paladin, Cavalier), it's irrelevant. These class restrictions were ALL disruptive, and have since been removed *shrug*
Simple.